Return-Path: <nifl-assessment@literacy.nifl.gov> Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by literacy.nifl.gov (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id j71HXFG19740; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:33:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:33:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <20050801173138.56475.qmail@web40706.mail.yahoo.com> Errors-To: listowner@literacy.nifl.gov Reply-To: nifl-assessment@literacy.nifl.gov Originator: nifl-assessment@literacy.nifl.gov Sender: nifl-assessment@literacy.nifl.gov Precedence: bulk From: Nancy Hansen <sfallsliteracy@yahoo.com> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-assessment@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-ASSESSMENT:1186] RE: high-stakes testing, state/federal X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Status: O Content-Length: 8348 Lines: 223 Hi Katrina et all: A personal and sincere thank you, Katrina, for your thorough, thoughtful reply to Howard's post. And Congratulations! It must be an exciting time for your family with a new baby born into it! I appreciate your taking precious, dear time to write this e-mail while deep in the work of loving and life-giving to your newborn. You concluded with: <<I don't think there is an easy answer or solution.>> I agree. But I feel a compromise should be sought. Another point I would like to see made is coordinators, directors, administrators -- whatever their title -- should have the levity to make *choices* about which assessment tools they feel best suits the population they serve without being severely punished for their choice. I feel that right now this is the case with using the NRS system as a requirement for *all* AELS programs, whether the chosen-testing tool is "fair" in their state or not. A "no choice" circumstance. Nancy Hansen Sioux Falls Area Literacy Council --- Katrina Hinson <khinson@future-gate.com> wrote: > I've been really quiet on this list for the last > several weeks - partly because we just welcomed a > brand new baby to our family - now that I've caught > up on all the collected emails, I think I'll dive > into this discussion. A colleague and I were > actually discussing "standardized" testing issues > over coffee this past Saturday as it relates to our > own program. > > To answer the questions posed by Howard: > > I don't like standardized tests. I never have -even > as a student in school myself. I think they are > excellent guage of a student's ability to memorize > and regurgiate information but not necessarily a > good guague of a student's ability to APPLY the > knowledge they have. I also think one of the fatal > flaws with a standardized tests is that sometimes > students learn something simply to pass a test but > then forget it as soon as they think they don't need > it any longer. Unfortunately, because of reporting > and funding, I think standardized tests, > irregardless of which one a state or school uses, > have become a necessary evil. I happen to agree > with others that spoke up on the list that stated > that they don't really think standardized tests are > the best way to go in terms of assessing students. > Like others, my own school does intake testing > before assigning a student to a class. One of the > problems I've found is that some students don't take > the test seriously, they get really low! > scores, are improperly placed, and then they quit > coming b/c they get bored. For the record, we use > the TABE test. I've seen students test who simply > opened their test booklet and just bubbled in > answers - yet when doing work in class, it was > discovered that they knew way more than the test > showed. Likewise, I've had students test really > high, and it not be an accurate indication of what > they really knew. I've had students, especially in > the math portion of the test, score at the 11th and > 12 grade level yet those same students could not > work with complicated fraction problems, had trouble > with long division, etc,let alone the inability to > do algebra and geometry. The TABE, along with any > standardized tests, is going to have inherent flaws > - because it uses snippets of data to "test" a > student's knowledge base but it doesn't come close > to giving a real and sometimes completely accurate > picture. On a side note, I also agree with earlier > comments that the TABE is not neces! > sarily an ideal test to "assess" a student's reading > ability. In my t > levels, as a GED instructor and even as an AHS > instructor, reading ability is truly only assessed > when an instructor spends some quality one on one > time with his or her students gauging everything > from fluency to comprehension. The TABE, CASAS and > even the GED definitely tests comprehension skills > but give a weak assessment of the students' fluency > skills. It can be assumed that if the student has > trouble comprehending what they have read, then by > defaulty they have trouble with fluency - but it > doesn't begin to tell or help an instructor know > just where that problem might lie. Is it with word > recognition, phonetics, rate, etc. There are a lot > of questions that no standardized tests can ever > answer and that the instructor is going to have to > "assess" on his or her own. > > My experience with CASAS is that it too doesn't give > a complete picture BUT, I do like the fact that it > is "Life Skills/Employability Skills" based. I think > it's much easier to explain to someone in their 50's > and 60's in terms of CASAS, than it is to have given > them the TABE and show tell them that they are at a > 4th grade level in a given area. I agree that such > explanations are a bit demeaning to adults who have > life experiences that the TABE does not take into > account. There is a huge difference between the 17 > year old who completed 10th grade and the 50 year > old who held a job for 20 years before the plant > closed and those differences are NOT Assessed or > accounted for in assessments. > > Howard asked if there was one tests that was "better > than sliced bread". I think the answer to that is > "no." No one tests will ever give a complete > picture. I think that is also the fatal flaw in the > NRS. It's data driven only and data is one sided. > Data like that can be skewed b/c not everyone tests > well; data can be misleading - students tests high > or low and it not be the real "indication" of their > ability; students deliberately "blow" the tests b/c > they don't understand or appreciate the significance > of it. There are a lot of factors, it seems to me, > that make "standardized" testing flawed but because > of funding issues, they are necessary. I think it > becomes equally necessary then for instructors to go > beyond the "initial" assessment done at an intake > session to truly identify the needs and abilities of > their students. I think this can be done with one to > one interviews, surveys and teacher made materials. > I think that as a student enters and learns, that > portfolios ! > of work highlighting their growth are the best > assessment of their ability. > > I don't think there is an easy answer or solution. > > Regards > Katrina Hinson > > > >>> hdooley@riral.org 07/27/05 10:21 PM >>> > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > "Help", he says, not quite desperately. (I have > procrastinated, so I am > just a "nonce" from desperation.) > > As my program (staff and learners) and fellow > practitioners move into > the 21st century of "no adult left behind", trying > to meet the > accountability requirements of federal, state, and > program parties, > trying to be evidence-based, standards-based, and so > on in the jargon of > the moment, we are as you are trying to prepare our > learners for > post-secondary training/education and for > living-wage jobs, and, well, > frankly (as St Paul said) trying to be "all things > to all people so that > some few can be saved". > > In that context, I am interested in hearing and/or > discussing with folks > the implementation of standardized assessments. Are > they always a > necessary evil? The devil's due? Have you found > ways to make them > relevant, engaging? > > Perhaps (whisper, wink) you are you a true-believer? > Is the TABE, the > BEST, the CASAS, the best thing since sliced bread? > > Don't be shy. Blast me. Guide me. Lurkers, come > out and play. > Theorists, practicivists welcome to proselytize. > > Do you reject standardization? Are you are a > naturalist? Please, let > me know how to move down the "path not taken." > > If your comments are "not ready for prime-time", you > can reply privately > to hdooley@riral.org. Thank you. > > Howard L. Dooley, Jr. > Director of Accountability, Project RIRAL > Assessment Team, Governor's Taskforce on Adult > Literacy > > > > > > > > We could learn a lot from crayons: some are sharp, > some are > pretty, some are dull, some have weird names, and > all are > different colors...but they all have to learn to > live in > the same box. > ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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