Interview with Ellin White Burkland [2/16/2002]

Jane M. O'Brien:

Well, I'm using this tape to say that I'm Jane O'Brien and I'm a volunteer for the Veterans History Project, which is sponsored by the American Folklife Center of the Library of Congress and for the purpose of recording oral history of civilians and military personnel alike who participated in World War II. And today I'm here at Arcadia Retirement Community, and I'm meeting with Ellin Burkland, and it's February the 16th, 2002. So I'd like to interview Ellin and welcome her and thank her in advance for meeting with me today. Ellin, to start off, I understand that you were a member of a air raid warning service and living on Fort Shafter and participated in this program for three years?

Ellin White Burkland:

Yes, Uh-hm.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And so what timeframe are we talking about?

Ellin White Burkland:

Well, I think we started our training off kind of mid-December, maybe late December, of 1941, and we were trained by the first of January 1942 and went to work at Fort Shafter in a little shack where they had a temporary setup of the plotting board and all the hookups to the radar stations, and the first of March, I believe it was, they were ready for us to move onto Fort Shafter. Our quarters were ready, and we commuted from home before that, but then after we had our quarters on Fort Shafter, and then we were working in a tunnel just above our quarters, and we walked to work each shift.

Jane M. O'Brien:

So you were actually working inside a tunnel?

Ellin White Burkland:

That's right.

Jane M. O'Brien:

Was it constructed underground or into the hill?

Ellin White Burkland:

Into the hill.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And did you participate with the WARDs program as a volunteer or were you paid or -

Ellin White Burkland:

We were paid -- and I was just reading about this the other day -- $125 a month. We were civilian employees and under civil service, but we worked -- as far as our pay was concerned, but we were working for the army.

Jane M. O'Brien:

So was that monthly salary comparable to a civil service employee in some other capacity?

Ellin White Burkland:

I have absolutely no idea.

Jane M. O'Brien:

But did you have GS rating like...?

Ellin White Burkland:

I don't think so. I don't think we had any ratings.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And did you have a security clearance or anything?

Ellin White Burkland:

Yes, yes, I'm sure we did, yeah. They --

Jane M. O'Brien:

Were you -

Ellin White Burkland:

I don't remember being interviewed for that, but I'm sure they must have done something.

Jane M. O'Brien:

Were you born and raised in Honolulu?

Ellin White Burkland:

Yes, I was.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And so were your parents alive at this time?

Ellin White Burkland:

Yes, uh-hm.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And did they know what you were doing?

Ellin White Burkland:

Oh, yes, but not in detail. I mean, they knew where I was, and we did have telephones in our quarters, so we were able -- But I used to go home. We had -- We'd work so many shifts, and then we would get 36 hours off, and so I went home at that time and stayed at - spent time with them.

Jane M. O'Brien:

Where were you educated? Did you go to island school?

Ellin White Burkland:

I did through the tenth grade, and then I went away to boarding school in Maryland, Garrison Forest School, for my junior and senior year. And then I went to Sarah Lawrence College for two years, came back and taught - assisted in kindergarten class until the war broke and then worked for the WARDs, and then in September of '44 I went back to occupational therapy school in Philadelphia. So I never - I never finished college, but I did have four years of schooling of post-graduate school.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And after the WARDs program, were you married? Have you been married during your life and had a family?

Ellin White Burkland:

Yes, I have, but I wasn't married until 1947, and I have three sons. Two of them live in Washington state and one on the Big Island here, and my husband died a year ago today.

Jane M. O'Brien:

Oh, well, thank you for sharing today with me, and I think this might be a positive day to remember him as well.

Ellin White Burkland:

Oh, yes. You bet.

Jane M. O'Brien:

Did you have lots of friends in the barracks? Did you live in a barracks in _____?

Ellin White Burkland:

No. Actually, we lived in quarters that had been -- had been or been planned anyway for families. And so there were three girls, women in each apartment, really, and they were two-story apartments with a living room and kitchen downstairs and two bedrooms and a bath upstairs. Very comfortable, really. We were responsible for furnishing our apartments, so we all contributed to that. And I even made a Hiki E cover which surprised myself.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And so what is that?

Ellin White Burkland:

Well, a Hiki E is a -- Actually, I guess you'd call it a Pun E because it's a single bed that you make into something that you can use in the living room with pillows and bolsters and that sort of thing. You can sleep on it, of course, if you have guests, but normally you just leave it as a piece of furniture in the -

Jane M. O'Brien:

Like a futon?

Ellin White Burkland:

Well, actually, it's a real bed, I mean, you know, and a Hiki E is twice that big, so definitely seldom sleep on it.

Jane M. O'Brien:

So, when you had your time off from the WARDs job, then you came into town to be with your family?

Ellin White Burkland:

Uh-hm.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And so (?it seemed?) there was a social life on the base?

Ellin White Burkland:

That's right, definitely. We ate at the officers club with the officers, and so we met a lot of the officers that either, either most of them I guess were working in the same area we were but not necessarily, and then we'd go to dances and meet various Navy people as well as the Army and Air Force that we were meeting on Shafter. And actually one of my roommates married during the war, married one of the men that she met out there. That's part of the reason I went back to occupational therapy school. All my friends were getting married, and I hadn't found anybody, so I thought I'd better have some kind of a profession that I could go to when the war was over. So that's why I picked up and left for - and that was quite an experience. We went on a -- The ship that seemed to take people back and forth all the time was called The Permanente, and it was a cement -- belonged to a cement company. I guess maybe they came down -- I don't know whether they brought -- may have brought defense workers down and then took army personnel back and everything, but we had -- were six in a room with three bunks and two tier bunks and no place to sit anywhere except just on the floor or on a deck. So fortunately it wasn't a very rough trip, but it took us a week where normally it would take four or five days because, of course, we were zig-zagging the whole way up so...

Jane M. O'Brien:

Was that for security reasons?

Ellin White Burkland:

Yeah. We were in a convoy with escorts, destroyer escorts.

Jane M. O'Brien:

How long did the WARDs program last here in Honolulu?

Ellin White Burkland:

Well, I wasn't here at the end, but it lasted through the war until the end of the war, and how long they stayed around after that, I'm not too sure, so I couldn't tell you.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And so when was the war considered over here?

Ellin White Burkland:

Forty-five I think. Well, when was the -- I don't remember when the surrender of Japan was to tell you the truth, whether that was '46 or '47.

Jane M. O'Brien:

I'm not sure myself.

Ellin White Burkland:

I think maybe it was '46. I came back from O.T. school in December of '46. The war was definitely over, but I don't think it had been over for a whole year, so I think maybe - I think around August or September was when...

Jane M. O'Brien:

So the WARD program was still operative at that time?

Ellin White Burkland:

Not when I got back.

Jane M. O'Brien:

Not when you came back.

Ellin White Burkland:

But I think it was right to the end, yes.

Jane M. O'Brien:

When you were active in the WARD program, I know that you had uniforms?

Ellin White Burkland:

That's right.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And it seemed that clothing and supplies, that type of thing, were constantly available?

Ellin White Burkland:

Seemed to be. We didn't have - The only thing that was short was liquor. That was always a big thing, not with me necessarily but with my father. He was always very happy when any of my beaus would bring liquor because the PX always had liquor or the Navy Exchange or wherever they were buying stuff.

Jane M. O'Brien:

Now, did you have privileges to make purchases?

Ellin White Burkland:

No. No, we didn't.

Jane M. O'Brien:

What about nylons? I saw a photograph, and the girls seemed to either be bare-legged or have on nylons.

Ellin White Burkland:

Well, I remember just before the war having bought - Nylons were very new in those days - and having bought six pair. We didn't wear them very much here, but when I got back to O.T. school, why, I wanted to be able to wear them and I found somebody who would mend them, you know, pick up the little threads and do the whole thing whenever I had a run in them. So I had nylons I think right to the end of the war. I was lucky.

Jane M. O'Brien:

When the programs for WARDs, the Air Raid Warning Service, was developed, I understand there was a group of women who lived on base as you did on Fort Shafter, and then there was a community-based group of women who were married without children, and they came to Fort Shafter and worked in the tunnels three or four days a week for long shifts?

Ellin White Burkland:

Did Jane tell you that they called them "Town Reserves?" That was it, yeah.

Jane M. O'Brien:

Yes, Town Reserves.

Ellin White Burkland:

And I guess she knows more about that, but they picked them up with some sort of a -- gave them transportation to and from each shift.

Jane M. O'Brien:

So what did your uniform consist of?

Ellin White Burkland:

Well, the one we wore the most was not denim but a heavy twill, I'd guess you'd say, and very plain. It did have epaulets and it had a self-belt I think and just straight with maybe a zipper, maybe buttons. I can't remember whether we would have had zippers at that stage in the game down the front with kind of a flap, but whatever you call those, and short sleeves. We didn't have any uniform jacket, but we did have dress uniforms, which was a white shirt and like a shark skin -- I don't know that it was shark skin, but it looked like that -- on a coat that belted and had big pockets on here and here kind of military looking and epaulets and then a straight skirt. So we were supposed to wear those. I don't know why we got those first I noticed when I was reading up on this, and I don't know why, but we got our working uniforms after we got our dress uniforms -

Jane M. O'Brien:

After your dress uniforms?

Ellin White Burkland:

-- which always, which struck me funny at this point.

Jane M. O'Brien:

Well, was this program unique to Hawaii?

Ellin White Burkland:

Yes. As far as I know there was no other program like it. They did have spotters, you know, that would spot planes and identify them, but they didn't have a program that was as organized as this. There were six or eight or maybe more, I don't know, but radar stations around this island and, of course, other islands, too. They subsequently had them to begin with on this island, but they had them on Kauai, Maui, and Hawaii. And I was involved, I remember, recruiting on Hawaii, but I when reading up on this I did a lot of things I didn't remember. I was in charge of recruiting in the very beginning, and I was treasurer of the group in the early stages. And then I recruited on Hawaii and Maui, and I didn't even remember that I'd been down to Maui once.

Jane M. O'Brien:

Now, you said you were reading up. You must have -- Did you have a diary?

Ellin White Burkland:

No. But I have this book that is available at the Arizona Memorial and I -- getting ready for my granddaughter to interview me on this subject before I sent the things to her to read up.

Jane M. O'Brien:

So you have quite a packet of information?

Ellin White Burkland:

Well, actually I don't have as much as Jane, and I have very --- no clippings at all I don't think, and I don't know why I don't have my wings. And I also -- There was an organization. We had a chief supervisor and then on down the road, so to speak, in the office with _____ various jobs, and I ended up, before I left I was in the office in charge of housing when we had new groups coming from the mainland. Did Jane tell you about the mainland people?

Jane M. O'Brien:

No.

Ellin White Burkland:

Well, we didn't have enough people here, and they would, when their husbands were killed or something, maybe they'd go home so that there was quite a heavy turnover. So they started recruiting on the mainland, and they brought girls down that - And there were quite a few service wives here that wanted to stay and had no children or anything. They qualified age-wise and children-wise. And so they decided that they wouldn't make them go home as they were making everybody, all the other personnel go home. So since they were going to take this job. So they had quite a lot of service wives of various kinds - Navy, Army, Air Force.

Jane M. O'Brien:

So how many women were involved in this program say at a time when you were participating, like 1,000?

Ellin White Burkland:

Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I would say there were probably maybe 15 or 20 on each shift. So it was a small, quite a organization actually. We would have had four shifts because we worked six hours. They tried different hour programs. They had eight hours, and then they had sometimes when you were off two hours or something, and then you went back on again. I mean, funny they ended up just having six hours on and you'd have the night shift, for instance, from 6:00 to 12:00 for two days. So every two days you'd change, which was very poor planning at that time. They didn't realize how hard that was on your body.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And from the photographs I saw, the women were working at a plotting board, and then they were being - were they being supervised or overseen by men who were part of the military?

Ellin White Burkland:

Yeah. Well, the way it worked was that there were the plotters on the board, and they would have earphones on, and they would hear from the stations. Then they would put out arrows on the coordinates. There were boards divided into squares with coordinates, 1E, whatever, you know, and I've forgotten how that worked out, and then there was a supervisor that would - a filterer they would call it. Sometimes there would be two or three stations that would have plots from the same flight. So the filterer would go around and determine - she figured that these two gals were both the same flight because they were going like this all the way down. So she'd put them into one flight. Then around up above there was a second story, and around there were a fighter, fighter, officer, a Navy officer, and a bomber officer as well as the controller, I think, who was in charge of the whole place. And so as these men would see these plots coming on they would say that flight -- We'd put a light number on it and a standard and - you probably saw that on the -

Jane M. O'Brien:

______.

Ellin White Burkland:

Yeah. And so they'd put a number on it and they'd say, "Flight so and so bomber," and so then you'd put a bomber sticker on it. So that would be taken care of and you'd plot it in, and just a little bit above, maybe like three or four feet above the table, there was another great big board that was the whole, not the whole Pacific, but I mean the Pacific around us, and so we'd pick up the flight sometimes way out there, and there would be one girl up there that would be plotting that, and then it would come down on the board as it got closer to Hawaii.

Jane M. O'Brien:

Was the WARDs program developed for women specifically to serve in the position?

Ellin White Burkland:

Well, they had men to begin with. We relieved men who were doing it for the time. From the time of December 7th until we got there, there were soldiers doing it, but they wanted to use the soldiers for something else. So, like everything else, women took over men's jobs.

Jane M. O'Brien:

So was the program in effect here before December the 7th?

Ellin White Burkland:

Oh, no. Oh, no. It was started -

Jane M. O'Brien:

It was started right after that?

Ellin White Burkland:

Actually, it was longer than I thought. It was ten days or more. And one of the generals, I think General Davidson, knew lots of people in Honolulu, and so he called one of his Honolulu women friends and asked her to see if she could recruit people. So she got the girls that she -- younger girls that she knew. She probably was in her 50's or 60's by that time. So she didn't participate herself, but she got other people, and then I knew her quite well and I was a neighbor. So she -- I guess that's how I got to be the recruiter. As I say, I have no recollection of that at all.

Jane M. O'Brien:

So were you living at home with your parents at this time?

Ellin White Burkland:

Yes, I was. I was just volunteering at Queen's Hospital as at the information desk, and they made that into a sign-up place for the blood bank. So that's what I had been doing before I was recruited for this, was signing up people for appointments to come to the blood bank. And my father was head of the merchandise department in one of the big company firms here, and so when he heard about it on December early morning---We were sitting the breakfast table --- why, he just got right up and went down there and never got home until midnight, I think, that night because he was dispensing everything---bandages and sheets and towels and blankets and all that kind of stuff so that -- And we had three air force wives arrive about 10:00 o'clock, a little after 10:00 that morning. Mother and I were home, and one of our friends had gathered people together, and there was one baby - the mother had just gotten a new washing machine. She was so grateful that she had that---the baby there, but they must have stayed for a week or ten days with us because---and didn't hear from their husbands for several days.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And this was starting on December the 7th?

Ellin White Burkland:

Yeah, on December 7th they arrived. So we were busy doing that, and then as soon as we could get to a store, why, we bought blackout material so that we could at least have one room in the house that was blacked out that we could sit in at night.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And then, so, ten days later, after December the 7th, then were you volunteering for the WARDs program?

Ellin White Burkland:

Just about, I think, around in there because we must have had a week or ten days training before we went out to Shafter, and I know we went to Shafter the first of January.

Jane M. O'Brien:

What kind of training did you have?

Ellin White Burkland:

Well, how to plot and how to filter and lectures on how the whole thing worked, what a radar station does. And we had - Sometime during the time we were there, we were taken to a radar station to see it, to see how the scope looked and what the blips looked like and how they chose what to call into us and that sort of thing.

Jane M. O'Brien:

Now you referred to the book that's been written. Do you know the exact title?

Ellin White Burkland:

I think it's the same title as that one that Jane had, Women's Air Raid Defense, and it's written by Kam Napier and somebody Chenoweth, which I think is spelled, C-h-e-n-o-w-e-t-h, and they took all the notes and pictures and information. There were four girls who had been gathering this for quite a bit a while, doing interviews. They sent out letters to people, what their reminiscences were that sort of thing. So they had a mountain of material, and they just never seemed to be able to get it put together in any publishable form. So these people did that, and they did a very nice job. It's a very nice book.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And since this time has passed in your life, and then did you resign from the WARDs?

Ellin White Burkland:

Yeah.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And you went back and you finished your O.T. training?

Ellin White Burkland:

That's right. I didn't finish; I started it and finished.

Jane M. O'Brien:

Started it. So did you have any particular experience as a WARD that just really stands out in your mind that would be like scary or frightening, or you felt threatened or ...

Ellin White Burkland:

Well, I think before the Midway battle, we were all very much on tender hooks. We'd carried gas masks and wore our helmets to work, and we were supposed to carry them with us every place we went. We had gas mask training, and we put up a tent and fill it up with gas if we had to go into it, but one night shortly before - Well, it was before Midway, but I'm not just sure what the timing was. Right off of Pearl Harbor we had a flight that kept doing this, just going around and around and around, and so finally they - I mean, nobody could identify it. So we decided that what it was, was a plane from a Japanese submarine that was casing the situation, and whatever happened to him I don't know because -- But it's funny because that just kind of reminds me about how little we knew about what was happening anyplace, you know, and I read some of the stories from people who they'd gone out and looked around and saw this happening and that happening and palms falling here and there and - [END OF SIDE ONE] I never really did find out very much about what was happening that day. I did -- My aunt was head of the Red Cross, volunteer part of the Red Cross and, of course, so she was down there all day at the Red Cross headquarters, and she called me up and she said, "We left the house without locking it or anything," and she said -

Jane M. O'Brien:

This was on December the 7th?

Ellin White Burkland:

On the 7th. And she said, "Please go up and take a look at it." They lived just up the hill from us. "Please go up and take a look and be sure everything's okay." I don't remember locking it. I may have, but so I did, and then I thought, "Well, while I'm on this street I'll..." Just went up over the hill a little bit where I could look down into Pearl Harbor and I just saw this massive -- And this was in the afternoon, late afternoon - massive cloud of black smoke. So, of course, I never even thought about it being ships, but I'm sure it must have been the Arizona at that point, but I thought it was the oil tanks or something like that that was going.

Jane M. O'Brien:

Well, you were talking about when you were at work and -

Ellin White Burkland:

The plane.

Jane M. O'Brien:

-- near the time of the Midway.

Ellin White Burkland:

Yeah.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And about the plane flying around and around in a circle?

Ellin White Burkland:

Yeah.

Jane M. O'Brien:

So when something like that was happening, and you all were the observer then...

Ellin White Burkland:

It was frightening. That was frightening, sure, sure.

Jane M. O'Brien:

That was frightening to you? What happened as a result of that observation? Like was there an air raid warning in the community or -

Ellin White Burkland:

No, there wasn't. I think maybe they sent intercept planes out to look at it. I don't really remember very well about that, but I'm sure they must have because that was the other thing. That anytime there was an unidentified, which we had fairly frequently, you'd hear the word, "Scramble!" and the fighter pilots would be sending out fighter planes to check out whatever it was that was unidentified.

Jane M. O'Brien:

It's ironic to me that we're talking about a period in time that it's history in a history book for me and a very big part of your life, and now we're living in another time that's very important. It's a real alive part of my life where our country's been attacked again with the assault on the World Trade Centers in New York in September, September the 11th, 2001.

Ellin White Burkland:

Right.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And do you see an analogy to those two incidents, a correlation?

Ellin White Burkland:

Well, I think the motive was so totally different. The Japanese were after property and land and expanding their empire; whereas these guys, the September 11th people, were just mad at us and wanted to do as much damage as they could to us. So I don't -- They said frequently right after those September 11th hijackings that it was a second Pearl Harbor, but - Of course, [?there were?] more people lost I realized in the Trade Center than there were in Pearl Harbor, which is kind of amazing to think of, but there's such concentrations of people that we have today.

Jane M. O'Brien:

Well, in your recollections of your time as part of the WARDs program, are there any especially humorous or unusual events that stand out in your mind?

Ellin White Burkland:

Well, I had my car, and it was a fairly new car, and it kept getting flat tires, and I changed so many flat tires. At one time it was parked up by the office, and we had one soldier who was an orderly for our contingent. So I went up and I asked him if he would come and change my tire for me. And he came out and he looked at it and he said, "Miss White," he said, "I've got a clean uniform on. I don't want to change your tire." [laughter] He walked, turned on his back and walked away. Oh, damn him anyway, but I wasn't smart enough to say he had to do it. Well, he really didn't have to do it. But one time I was parked - there was the slope going down from the road behind our quarters, and I was parked practically on the edge of that slope as close as I could possible be and, of course, I got a flat tire on that side. So I had to change that, and that was a little risky, shall I say. I thought I was going to fall down the slope.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And so do you feel that your years spent with the WARDs program was a very beneficial time to you and _____?

Ellin White Burkland:

Yes, I guess so. Oh, I definitely feel I made a contribution, yes, and, you know, we had fun. I remember one time - we had this house over in the country --- and one time we saved up all the gas we could and got a whole gang together and went over there and spent the day, which was kind of a fun thing to do with some of the men that we knew, but actually I guess I had two roommates that got married to people they met there. So there were parties on base as well as - And I was in one wedding during the war and so we really - And it was blackout so you couldn't be on the roads after 10:00 o'clock. So parties never got a chance to get going too much. And another thing on the social scene, the Halekulani Hotel, a lot of men, officers and local men, lived there because it was an easy place to - they got their meals and all the rest of it, rather than having an apartment or something. So every now and again the hotel would have a party, a dance, and you could move around amongst the various -- They had cottages in the old Halekulani - and you could move around between the cottages and the main building without worrying about the blackout or anything like that. You were allowed to do that. So I remember one time somebody asked me to come down. All the men moved into one cottage and put the girls in their cottage. So we spent the night down there because, of course, we couldn't get home. So that was kind of fun.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And then when you were living out at Fort Shafter, did you have well-prepared food? Was it like ration food?

Ellin White Burkland:

No, it wasn't ration. It was perfectly okay food, but in those days I wasn't as particular as I am now. So it tasted pretty good. I think we probably, if I remember right, we probably made our own breakfast in our quarters, and then we would have dinners and luncheons over there. I don't really remember eating there all that much. We must have gone out or done something else. I can't remember.

Jane M. O'Brien:

Well, do you belong to any organizations that are related to this event that you _____ served your country?

Ellin White Burkland:

Well, no. We used to -- We've had a lot of reunions of this group, and the last one was not too many -- We're still coming, you know, and so it's kind of petered out, and the people who were behind organizing them have gone. So they would have reunions for the veterans that would come down. So we'd always try and organize a reunion when they were coming.

Jane M. O'Brien:

To coincide.

Ellin White Burkland:

Yeah, to coincide (?with it?). I don't remember particularly getting together with them, but we had some very nice reunions and a chance to catch up with the people that we knew, had known.

Jane M. O'Brien:

Are there any other things that you would like to share about your experience or anything that I've overlooked you feel that I should be asking you?

Ellin White Burkland:

[Laughter] Not really. I was asked once, "What did you do on December 7th? What was your first thought?" And, of course, we were cautioned to fill our bathtubs with water in case we didn't have any water. "Gosh, if there's no water I won't be able to wash my hair." So I got in the shower and washed my hair. That was the most important thing to me at that point. It's kind of silly.

Jane M. O'Brien:

So at that time you would have been like 22, 23?

Ellin White Burkland:

Yeah, 23 I think I was, yeah.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And so your granddaughter is...

Ellin White Burkland:

Well, my son some time ago was doing toastmasters, and he thought this would make a good toastmaster thing. Of course, they can only talk two minutes, so I just wrote up a few things about what the WARDs really were and that sort of thing, and I said, "That ought to take you two minutes to say." So I guess she's taking an advanced history course and has to do a thesis, and so I guess my son must have suggested that she do me or do the WARDs. So I said I would send her the material, but I thought, "You know, there's so much I've forgotten," and I would not be able to tell you all these things if I hadn't read up on it before I sent the things to her. And she got them just before she had to have an interview with the professor to tell him what she was going to do. So it was in time's nick. So I haven't had my interview with her yet. It will be interesting to see what kind of questions she comes up with.

Jane M. O'Brien:

And where is she located?

Ellin White Burkland:

She's living in Bellingham, Washington.

Jane M. O'Brien:

Oh, okay. Well, let her know about this program also because she might want to expand what she's doing in numbers of people or something like that.

Ellin White Burkland:

Yeah, right. Well, that's all in this book that I sent, that I sent to her. I don't remember numbers very well, so I can't remember that, but it's very comprehensive, that book. It really tells you the whole. You don't need to interview anybody after you -

Jane M. O'Brien:

Well, and to get the personal asides that we ask you.

Ellin White Burkland:

Oh, yes. I realize that, yes.

Jane M. O'Brien:

Well, I think I'll turn this off.