Good morning! 
 
What a great discussion!  I've been attempting to follow it while balancing other things right now, and I'm so glad I have because many of the points that have been made really speak to our system of education delivery.  How long has algebra been taught in 8th and 9th grades (after basic arithmetic)?
 
In response to Tom's post, I'm passing along this link sent to me by a coworker on what's going on in K-12 with regard to teaching algebra.  The link is for an algebra webinar, and it was in the EdWeek Update:
https://event.on24.com/eventRegistration/EventLobbyServlet?target=registration.jsp <https://event.on24.com/eventRegistration/EventLobbyServlet?target=registration.jsp&eventid=132371&sessionid=1&key=DB4F11BB6A4A3A622782C4B6BAB6BEF4&sourcepage=register> &eventid=132371&sessionid=1&key=DB4F11BB6A4A3A622782C4B6BAB6BEF4&sourcepage=register
 
Cheryl Pyburn
Team Leader
Adult and Community Learning Services
75 Pleasant Street
Malden, MA 02148
781-338-3876 phone
781-338-3394 fax
cpyburn at doe.mass.edu
 
-----Original Message-----
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]On Behalf Of Mechem, Thompson
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 8:02 AM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 1680] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2
 
Thanks for that clarification, Toni. The thing that worries me about that scenario is that there is evidence to show that strong arithmetic ability may not be a good predictor of strong algebra skills and that in fact it may hinder the development of algebra skills. From a teaching standpoint, this calls into question our traditional sequence of math instruction whereby arithmetic comes first and arithmetic skills are seen as a prerequisite for algebra, but it also makes it problematic as to whether students' performances on the ACCUPLACER Arithmetic test are good indications of where they should be placed vis-a-vis algebra. There are some community colleges in Massachusetts that start students on the Algebra ACCUPLACER test and only if they do poorly on that do they take the Arithmetic test, rather than vice versa. 
 
Tom Mechem 
GED State Chief Examiner 
Department of Elementary & Secondary Education 
Commonwealth of Massachusetts 
781-338-6621 
"GED to Ph.D." 
-----Original Message-----
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]On Behalf Of Borge, Toni
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 4:37 PM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 1671] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2
After reading what Tom wrote that "I believe that if you get three in a row wrong it shuts you down and tells you, "Don't call us, we'll call you."  I asked my program's transitions advisor to check with our assessment director if it that is the case.   He found out that Accuplacer doesn't stop with wrong answers. In the case of math, the test might stop after Arithmetic, at BHCC the placement rules have been set so if a student scores very low on Arithmetic, they will not get the Elementary Algebra test, but they will get the entire Arithmetic test."
 
So it will depend on how each assessment center sets up their placement protocol to determine if a student will get the Elementary Algebra test or not.
 
Toni
 
 
 
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Mechem, Thompson
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 7:53 AM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 1646] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2
 
I would just add to what Toni has said about test-taking skills a point about the differences between the GED test and the ACCUPLACER with regard to the penalties for getting a problem wrong. We know from the research that the most-missed questions on the GED test are Pythagorean Theorem problems. However, there is only one of these on the GED math test, maybe two (out of fifty questions). Miss the Pythagorean Theorem question, get a 760 or whatever on the Math test, and head off to MIT. But the ACCUPLACER is a computer-adaptive test. The ACCUPLACER algebra test (which you have to pass in order to avoid developmental courses) starts you off with a medium-difficulty question, but if you get it wrong, you sink to a lower level from which it is more difficult to get yourself back to an even keel. Every wrong answer drops you further into the abyss, and I believe that if you get three in a row wrong it shuts you down and tells you, "Don't call us, we'll call you." So the ACCUPLACER requires a completely different test-taking mindset.
 
Tom Mechem 
GED State Chief Examiner 
Department of Elementary & Secondary Education 
Commonwealth of Massachusetts 
781-338-6621 
"GED to Ph.D." 
-----Original Message-----
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]On Behalf Of Borge, Toni
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 4:05 PM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 1603] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2
Writing from Bunker Hill Community College Boston one of the 5 colleges profiled in Torchlights in ESL;  I can confirm that the majority of GED and ESOL students place into developmental math.  That said, 90% of all students who enroll in community  colleges  in Massachusetts place into at least one developmental course.   And this is the trend nationwide.
 

>From my experience there are a number of factors that play into developmental placement; one that Tom mentioned is the lack of alignment between the Massachusetts Adult Curriculum Frameworks and community college math or English curriculum - and between Adult Ed ESOL and community college ESOL curriculum also.  It also should be noted a large number of high school graduates who pass the MCAS - Massachusetts state K-12 competency test also test into developmental classes, again lack of alignment between the  secondary education  and community college curriculum is a factor.  Steps are being taken to address this issue.

 
Another factor is test taking skills.  Students need to learn how to take a computerized test. The test taking strategies we learned about skipping the questions you know and then go back or review the  questions after you have completed the test can't be done on a computerized test.  Also many students do not take the time to read the directions carefully.  You can't go back and correct on a computerized test.
 
Instead of thinking how to get students to pass Accuplacer, I would recommend the focus should be on what math and English academic skills that are required to place into college level classes and adapt the curriculum to address these deficiencies.
Toni
 
 
 
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Mechem, Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 9:57 AM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 1574] Re: Reply to Questions 1 and 2
 
Stephanie, et al.---
 
In our state we also find that the low academic skill level of GED diploma recipients is, if not the biggest barrier to post-secondary education, at least a very major one. A huge majority of GED students end up in college developmental courses from which they never emerge. The unindicted co-conspirator in all this is the ACCUPLACER, the placement test that all applicants to Massachusetts state colleges must take. Our data shows that while GED grads do very well on the reading part of the ACCUPLACER and quite well on the Writing in terms of avoiding developmental courses, on the the Math they do very, very poorly. There is no correlation between GED math and ACCUPLACER/college Algebra: a person can get an 800 on the GED math test and still test into developmental math at a community college. I am working with GED math teachers around Massachusetts to develop a GED curriculum that will allow students to pass the GED test with all due speed and also pass the ACCUPLACER math test.
Tom Mechem 
GED State Chief Examiner 
Department of Elementary & Secondary Education 
Commonwealth of Massachusetts 
781-338-6621 
"GED to Ph.D." 
-----Original Message-----
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]On Behalf Of Stephanie Moran
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 3:28 PM
To: 'The Assessment Discussion List'
Subject: [Assessment 1563] Reply to Questions 1 and 2
1.       The low skill level of many students trying to transition from GED to college may be the biggest barrier. We are part of the SUN grant/College Connection grant here in Colorado, so we are in the middle of  doing exactly this-working in an intensive 8-week program that is attempting to help our GED grads accelerate their skill levels in reading, writing, math, study skills, critical thinking-and learn how to "do college" as well as explore career options. Our students are dedicated, but many nevertheless lack more sophisticated skills. One of our grant goals is to help them successfully pass through their current remedial course, and if they are at the 030 or 060 level, to perhaps skip over the next one into the higher 060/090 or into credit-bearing courses altogether.
--Study skills of students-many GED students are episodic in their attendance and can still pull off a solid GED score, but college demands  consistent and focused show-up-and-suit-up skills that may be unfamiliar if not downright foreign to GED grads.
--Another barrier is that some teachers perceive their primary role as helping students earn the GED and although such teachers often support post-GED studies, they don't want to push students or focus on higher-level skills. This creates a de facto tracking system, and it may be that centers will need to formalize such tracking so that students who know they want to go on to post-GED studies can work with those teachers.
2.  Resources:  Having GED teachers who also teach as adjuncts for community colleges is hugely helpful because we understand both systems and what is required for a student to be successful in a college environment; we also can tutor and advocate in a way that teachers who teach at only one level may not be able or willing to do as effectively.
--THE SUN/ College Connection grant has given us time and funding to develop curriculum, to work in close collaboration with other teacher/team members, and to introduce this approach to the community colleges.
 
Stephanie Moran
Durango, CO
 
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Marie Cora
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 7:52 AM
To: Assessment at nifl.gov
Subject: [Assessment 1557] Transitions Discussion begins today!
 
Good morning, afternoon and evening to you all.
 
Today begins our week-long discussion on Transitions in Adult Education.  
 
For full information on this discussion, go to:
 
http://www.nifl.gov/lincs/discussions/assessment/09transitions.html
 
I have some questions for subscribers:
 
1.  What seem to pose the biggest obstacles for your program when trying to successfully transition adult students from one education level to another, or from education to the workforce?  What does your program try to do about this?
 
2.  What resources have you found helpful when trying to successfully transition a student?  How have they been helpful?
 
3.  Please comment on the Introduction and/or Recommended Preparations for this Discussion, found at the announcement URL above.
 
Please post your questions and share your experiences now.  
 
Thanks!!
 
Marie Cora
Assessment Discussion List Moderator
 
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