April 18, 2001 - Chat Archive

Farming in Space

[ GaryStuttePESTOPrincipalInvestigator - 1 - 08:54:24 ]
Good afternoon.

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 2 - 08:57:59 ]
Hi, Gary- Welcome to the Chat. Is Bob there with you at Kennedy Space Center?

[ BobMorrowBPShardwaredeveloper - 3 - 08:58:55 ]
Good afternoon.

[ BobMorrowBPShardwaredeveloper - 4 - 08:59:34 ]
Meri- I am on another computer at KSC.

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 6 - 09:01:50 ]
Welcome back, Bob!

[ GaryStuttePESTOPrincipalInvestigator - 7 - 09:02:03 ]
Bob and I are in making preparations for the Mission Verification Test (MVT) that will be initiated on May 9.

[ TomDreschelScienceEducationDynamac - 8 - 09:02:07 ]
Hi: Tom is on board.

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 9 - 09:02:59 ]
We have had a few classes submit data to us and we are excited about getting any preliminary BPS data you might have to compare to ours.

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 10 - 09:03:19 ]
Welcome to the Farming in Space chat, Tom!

[ TomDreschelScienceEducationDynamac - 11 - 09:04:11 ]
Thanks, Meri

[ BobMorrowBPShardwaredeveloper - 12 - 09:05:22 ]
I don't have any detailed data for Brassica with me at KSC so I will need to speak in generalities today.

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 13 - 09:05:26 ]
Do you have any preliminary data on plant heights from any of the early mission tests yet? The Farming in Space classes measured plant heights every 7 or more days.

[ ChatModerator - 14 - 09:06:58 ]
Just a reminder. If you are a student, please only use your first name and don't give any additional information about your school name or location.

[ LaurieRuberg/NASACOTF - 15 - 09:07:10 ]
Hi Gary, Tom, and Bob, Tell us about the preparations involved with the MVT (Mission Verification Test. I think our participating schools would be interested in this.

[ GaryStuttePESTOPrincipalInvestigator - 16 - 09:07:45 ]
We have some data developed during ground tests in preparation for the flight and final harvest data obtained from preliminary BPS testing.

[ Mehgan - 17 - 09:08:20 ]
Aerospace and Bio are here

[ BobMorrowBPShardwaredeveloper - 18 - 09:09:26 ]
We are currently planting root modules which will be stored dry until the start of the test. We also are undergoing extensive test and checkout procedures for the BPS hardware in preparation for the test.

[ BobMorrowBPShardwaredeveloper - 19 - 09:10:15 ]
The data I have for Brassica is also from preliminary BPS ground testing.

[ Mehgan - 20 - 09:10:21 ]
SO what are your expectations for results

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 21 - 09:10:21 ]
Welcome, Mehgan. We would love to have you explain a little about your class investigations and how they differed!!

[ BobMorrowBPShardwaredeveloper - 22 - 09:11:38 ]
RE: [Mehgan] SO what are your expectations for results
From the MVT or for Brassica in general?

[ GaryStuttePESTOPrincipalInvestigator - 23 - 09:11:46 ]
The MVT is a "dress rehearsal" for the actual flight. The PESTO science team in going through all the procedures required for planting, priming, and starting the wheat plants, an the crew procedures will followed when conducting test in the BPS. We will expose the BPS to conditions obtained during previous flight missions. The goal is to identify any procedural, science, or hardware problems that would limit the success of the science mission on orbit.

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 24 - 09:12:13 ]
Bob, will your root modules contain only seeds? As I understand it, you will be providing a time-release osmocote fertilizer through the root support material and providing water from below during the experiment. Is this correct? How do you keep the water where it's supposed to be in microgravity?

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 25 - 09:14:43 ]
Thanks, Gary. Will you attempt to collect the same data as during the actual mission as well? Will this serve as the official NASA Earth control, or will ground-based tests be conducted at the same time as the International Space Station (ISS) mission?

[ Mehgan - 26 - 09:15:01 ]
There were many discrepancies in the data especially in Ag so there data was disregarded. Bio was slightly different than mine because the temperature was kept slightly lower. They didn't grow as tall or as fast. Mine grew faster because I saturated the soil more after planting

[ BobMorrowBPShardwaredeveloper - 27 - 09:15:41 ]
RE: [DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture] Bob, will your root modules contain only seeds? As I understand it, you will be providing a time-release osmocote fertilizer through the root support material and providing water from below during the experiment. Is this correct? How do you keep the water where it's supposed to be in microgravity?
The root modules for Brassica contain seeds to start with. The plants are grown in a particulate material that looks like Kitty litter. We have a time-relase fertilizer in the material. Water is delivered through porous tubes through capillary action. The capillary action prevent water from escaping the root zone in microgravity.

[ GaryStuttePESTOPrincipalInvestigator - 28 - 09:17:25 ]
RE: [DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture] Thanks, Gary. Will you attempt to collect the same data as during the actual mission as well? Will this serve as the official NASA Earth control, or will ground-based tests be conducted at the same time as the International Space Station (ISS) mission?
We will be collecting the same data, and following the same procedures as planned for the actual mission. since this is a simulation, and the environmental conditions the plants are exposed to during the MVT will differ from those experienced on the actual flight, this cannot be used as the ground control. It will provide a "benchmark" for the experiment.

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 29 - 09:18:33 ]
Thanks, Bob! Mehgan, there are even discrepancies in my data using the same light and same plant light house and bulb from one run to the next. We record the temperature daily. Our temperatures have been staying between 23 and 26 degrees C. The light is probably less intense as the bulb ages. We used a 39 Watt fluorescent GE Circle Light. What did you use?

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 30 - 09:20:23 ]
Thank you, Gary. What actual data do you think you will be able to obtain during the upcoming test?

[ LaurieRubergNASACOTF - 31 - 09:20:23 ]
Follow-up question RE: The MVT is a "dress rehearsal" for the actual flight. The PESTO science team in going through all the procedures required for planting, priming, and starting the wheat plants, an the crew procedures will followed when conducting test in the BPS. We will expose the BPS to conditions obtained during previous flight missions. The goal is to identify any procedural, science, or hardware problems that would limit the success of the science mission on orbit. Gary, Will you be testing the procedural instructions to the ISS Crew as well? ARe you also monitoring time requirements for each task?

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 32 - 09:20:30 ]
Bob, What have been some of your biggest obstacles or challenges in perfecting your equipment for this mission?

[ GaryStuttePESTOPrincipalInvestigator - 33 - 09:24:11 ]
RE: [DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture] Thank you, Gary. What actual data do you think you will be able to obtain during the upcoming test?
We will be obtaining photosynthesis and water use data continously, and well as all the environmental data. We will then determine rates of growth during the experiment from that data. We will measure the effects of light intensity and CO2 concentration on photosynthesis, and the effects of temperature and relative humidity on transpiration at several different times during the test. At harvest, we will measure leaf area, plant height, fresh weight, and ultimately dry weight. Plants will be fixed for microscopic analysis and other tissue will be frozen for starch and enzyme analysis.

[ BobMorrowBPShardwaredeveloper - 34 - 09:24:57 ]
RE: [DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture] Bob, What have been some of your biggest obstacles or challenges in perfecting your equipment for this mission?
Mass, power and volume limitations for a payload provide the biggest hurdles to overcome. We need to provide the proper temperature and light levels for growing plants but only have a small amount of power available (about the same as 3 100W light bulbs). Also, all the plant growth equipment must fit in a small volume and must not weigh too much.

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 35 - 09:26:01 ]
Gary, at what ages/developmental stages will the harvests be conducted?

[ Mehgan - 36 - 09:26:01 ]
We used a GE Biox 2D for our light source

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 37 - 09:26:09 ]
Tom, are you aware of Florida or other schools involved in or interested in participating in the Farming in Space activity?

[ GaryStuttePESTOPrincipalInvestigator - 38 - 09:26:15 ]
RE: [LaurieRubergNASACOTF] Follow-up question RE: The MVT is a "dress rehearsal" for the actual flight. The PESTO science team in going through all the procedures required for planting, priming, and starting the wheat plants, an the crew procedures will followed when conducting test in the BPS. We will expose the BPS to conditions obtained during previous flight missions. The goal is to identify any procedural, science, or hardware problems that would limit the success of the science mission on orbit. Gary, Will you be testing the procedural instructions to the ISS Crew as well? ARe you also monitoring time requirements for each task?
We will be following the ISS crew procedures. In fact, we planted a chamber which will be transported to Johnson Space Center next week for the actual ISS crew training. The time requirements will also be recorded by the "surrogate crew" during this test. These numbers will help to refine the actual ISS crews schedule when they are on orbit.

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 39 - 09:27:45 ]
Those are pretty restrictive criteria, Bob, although I guess we can understand the limitations of space and power usage aboard ISS. What is the exact type of light bulb you will be using? Are they available in hardware stores, or are they especially designed for this job?

[ GaryStuttePESTOPrincipalInvestigator - 40 - 09:29:09 ]
RE: [DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture] Gary, at what ages/developmental stages will the harvests be conducted?
Since most of the growth analysis is done non-destructively, it will occur continuously. Photosynthesis characterizations are being made at 1st full leaf expansion (9 days after planting); emergence of flag leaf (15-16 days after planting)and at full canopy coverage (22 days after planting). The harvest at 24 days after planting will be when the plants are still vegetative. This time based on height constraints for wheat.

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 41 - 09:29:24 ]
Thanks, Mehgan! Can you describe some of the challenges the students ran into in attempting the Farming in Space experiment at your school?

[ BobMorrowBPShardwaredeveloper - 42 - 09:30:18 ]
RE: [DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture] Those are pretty restrictive criteria, Bob, although I guess we can understand the limitations of space and power usage aboard ISS. What is the exact type of light bulb you will be using? Are they available in hardware stores, or are they especially designed for this job?
We are using small U-shaped fluorescent lamps (about as thick as a pencil and about 5 inches long) that are not available in stores but that can be ordered from a company called JKL. We put 10 of these in each light cap. These lamps are similiar to lamps used to back-light laptop computer screens.

[ Mehgan - 43 - 09:31:03 ]
Is there any possibility of using LED's on the space station as the light source?

[ GaryStuttePESTOPrincipalInvestigator - 44 - 09:32:16 ]
RE: [Mehgan] Is there any possibility of using LED's on the space station as the light source?
LED's are being evaluated as possible light sources for a number of salad crops at KSC as part of a different project.

[ Mehgan - 45 - 09:32:28 ]
None of the data matched up. They were unsure how to record data and didn't ask me how to do it even though it was explained.

[ LaurieRubergNASACOTF - 46 - 09:33:13 ]
RE: Time requirements and procedures. This may be an interesting area for classes to do some research. Students could first write up details descriptions of procedures, test obtain data regarding the clarity of the instructions and time requirements for each task. The value of this "technical writing-industrial engineering" research would be to show how much procedures differ across classes. What do you think? Perhaps Meghan already has some "lessons learned" from her experiences seeing the experiment implemented in three different classes at her school!

[ BobMorrowBPShardwaredeveloper - 47 - 09:33:25 ]
RE: [DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture] Those are pretty restrictive criteria, Bob, although I guess we can understand the limitations of space and power usage aboard ISS. What is the exact type of light bulb you will be using? Are they available in hardware stores, or are they especially designed for this job?
I should also mention, that in addition to the plant growth chambers in the BPS, we have a computer equivalent in power to a desktop computer. This is used to control the experiment and to read and record data from over 100 sensors located in BPS (temperature, light, humidity, ect.). We also have 4 cameras so we can see how plants are doing during the flight.

[ Mehgan - 48 - 09:34:28 ]
Laurie that is so true

[ GaryStuttePESTOPrincipalInvestigator - 49 - 09:34:29 ]
RE: [Mehgan] None of the data matched up. They were unsure how to record data and didn't ask me how to do it even though it was explained.
That is a common problem! Once of the reasons that we undergo the preflight tests is to idenfify where there is confusion in data acquision, sampling, record-keeping ect. This allows the entire team to improve the process.

[ BobMorrowBPShardwaredeveloper - 50 - 09:34:56 ]
RE: [Mehgan] Is there any possibility of using LED's on the space station as the light source?
When we designed BPS, we left room so that we could use LEDs in the future. Future plant growth units will probably provide the experimenter with the option of fluorescent lights or LEDs.

[ ChatModerator - 51 - 09:35:10 ]
The URL for the lamp manufacturer is http://www.jkllamps.com

[ Mehgan - 52 - 09:37:41 ]
I started growing yesterday using LED's and a control. The LED's are a red unit and a blue unit that are set at 85% red and 15% blue.

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 53 - 09:37:54 ]
Mehgan, your fellow students have run into a very common problem with recording data that even scientists face. That is why we have test runs before the "real thing". It often takes at least one experiment run to see if the data tables and measurement techniques are practical. I revised the tables at the end of each of my first 3 experiments until I thought they were pretty easy for me to use. Then, when it came time to make graphs, I still needed to revise them again. This is all part of the scientific process, which includes making errors and discovering how to correct them. ;-)

[ GaryStuttePESTOPrincipalInvestigator - 54 - 09:38:33 ]
RE: [Mehgan] I started growing yesterday using LED's and a control. The LED's are a red unit and a blue unit that are set at 85% red and 15% blue.
This is a good mix. Did you take light readings under the lamps?

[ Mehgan - 55 - 09:40:37 ]
THe company that built the LED unit wrote software for the unit and equipped the unit with a dib switch so that the lumens would be adjustable

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 56 - 09:41:51 ]
How big is your collection box, Mehgan? What is it made of? What kind of ventilation (or ability to stay cool) does it have (although I don't think your LEDs will be as hot as fluorescent lights)? How many plants are you growing in it? Will they be in 2-litter soda bottles, or in some other type of containers?

[ Mehgan - 57 - 09:41:51 ]
One of the Bio students Megs wants to know if the depth that the seeds are planted makes a difference.

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 58 - 09:42:59 ]
That's great, Mehgan. Be sure to keep measurements of the lumens. What else will you be measuring?

[ BobMorrowBPShardwaredeveloper - 59 - 09:46:43 ]
RE: [Mehgan] One of the Bio students Megs wants to know if the depth that the seeds are planted makes a difference.
Brassica seeds could be impacted if planted too deeply. I plant mine at the surface of the rooting material because it works best with the root module design we use to contain the rooting material so it doesn't float away in microgravity. I have not looked at Brassica development vs. planting depth.

[ Mehgan - 60 - 09:47:32 ]
DrCummings, I built a box based on plans that my dad and I designed. The box is fairly large with baffles and fans for air circulation. THe plants are in the bottles and standing on a box close to the LED's that are mounted to the top ofthe wooden box. THe inside of the box is white to allow light reflection. I am growing two of the four varieties with the other two in the control

[ GaryStuttePESTOPrincipalInvestigator - 61 - 09:48:52 ]
RE: Planting Depth. The situation is similar with wheat. In addition, we find that germination is better when we plant with the "point" of the seed in direct contact with the media.

[ BobMorrowBPShardwaredeveloper - 62 - 09:49:18 ]
RE: [Mehgan] DrCummings, I built a box based on plans that my dad and I designed. The box is fairly large with baffles and fans for air circulation. THe plants are in the bottles and standing on a box close to the LED's that are mounted to the top ofthe wooden box. THe inside of the box is white to allow light reflection. I am growing two of the four varieties with the other two in the control
The inside of the BPS chambers are also lined with a white material for light reflection.

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 63 - 09:50:19 ]
Thanks, Mehgan! Is your box made out of wood? Which type of plants are you growing under the LEDs?

[ Mehgan - 64 - 09:51:41 ]
What effect does the amount of saturation have on the plants? We found that when soaked thoroughly they did better. Did you find that out too?

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 65 - 09:53:19 ]
Bob, what material are your BPS units made out of? Does NASA have very rigorous criteria for types of materials that can in used during space flights? Did they tell you ahead of time what you could use, or did you have to find it out by trial and error?

[ Mehgan - 66 - 09:53:26 ]
Box is made out of wood. I'm growing Astroplants and the super dwarf wheat.

[ BobMorrowBPShardwaredeveloper - 67 - 09:53:53 ]
RE: [Mehgan] What effect does the amount of saturation have on the plants? We found that when soaked thoroughly they did better. Did you find that out too?
If the plants are not drained well and get too saturated, problems with plant development can occur due to lack of oxygen in the root zone.

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 68 - 09:54:19 ]
Mehgan, we definitely soaked our soil thoroughly for ALL of our plantings. We have found 50-70 percent germination in our wheat seeds, even when we store them in a wet paper towel in the refrigerator for 2 days prior to planting. Perhaps older seeds, or those that have been exposed to room moisture, have a lower percentage of germination?

[ GaryStuttePESTOPrincipalInvestigator - 69 - 09:55:01 ]
RE: [Mehgan] What effect does the amount of saturation have on the plants? We found that when soaked thoroughly they did better. Did you find that out too?
We have found that seed germination is best when the seeds and wicks are in well wetted. As the plant begin to develop, is the media is saturated, the root growth is reduced and overall growth is lower than with slightly drier plants. This occurs because that there is not enough oxygen in saturated soils to support the root growth.

[ GaryStuttePESTOPrincipalInvestigator - 70 - 09:56:48 ]
RE Seed germination: The percentage of wheat germination depends upon the cultivar. We can routinely obtain >95% germination with Apogee seed, but 50-75% percent germination is more typical for Super Dwarf.

[ BobMorrowBPShardwaredeveloper - 71 - 09:56:56 ]
RE: [DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture] Bob, what material are your BPS units made out of? Does NASA have very rigorous criteria for types of materials that can in used during space flights? Did they tell you ahead of time what you could use, or did you have to find it out by trial and error?
The BPS is made primarily of Aluminum and polycarbonate plastic. NASA maintains a list of acceptable materials. If these cannot be used, we can propose a material and see if NASA accepts it. This often must be done for things we buy (like pumps). The main issues related to material selection are flammability, outgassing (an example of outgassing is the smell associated with something like a new carpet), strength, and resistance to corrosion.

[ LaurieRubergNASACOTF - 72 - 09:57:34 ]
Gary and Bob, Would you take some digital photographs of the MVT set up and placement of materials for us to share on our Web site?

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 73 - 09:59:35 ]
Gary or Tom, at what point/age do you think NASA would consider harvesting the wheat crops for food? How many wheat heads (if that is the correct name) do you think each plant would need to have? I really love how short these 2 types of wheat grow!

[ BobMorrowBPShardwaredeveloper - 74 - 10:00:13 ]
RE: [LaurieRubergNASACOTF] Gary and Bob, Would you take some digital photographs of the MVT set up and placement of materials for us to share on our Web site?
I will have to talk to Gary since I don't have a camera down here.

[ TomDreschelScienceEducationDynamac - 75 - 10:01:09 ]
RE: [DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture] Gary or Tom, at what point/age do you think NASA would consider harvesting the wheat crops for food? How many wheat heads (if that is the correct name) do you think each plant would need to have? I really love how short these 2 types of wheat grow!
This would not be practical until we have a mission to Mars or build a colony on the Moon, which right now looks no sooner than a decade.

[ GaryStuttePESTOPrincipalInvestigator - 76 - 10:01:43 ]
RE: [DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture] Gary or Tom, at what point/age do you think NASA would consider harvesting the wheat crops for food? How many wheat heads (if that is the correct name) do you think each plant would need to have? I really love how short these 2 types of wheat grow!
Once we get the MVT started, we can take some pictures of the hardware, assuming that there are no proprietary issues involved.

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 77 - 10:01:58 ]
I cannot believe how quickly this chat has ended. If anyone has more information or questions, please continue and we'll try to get the final answers by the end of the week. We'll also be posting some of our prelimary class data.

[ Mehgan - 78 - 10:01:58 ]
When is the best time to harvest the wheat for ultimate production

[ GaryStuttePESTOPrincipalInvestigator - 79 - 10:03:32 ]
RE: [DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture] Gary or Tom, at what point/age do you think NASA would consider harvesting the wheat crops for food? How many wheat heads (if that is the correct name) do you think each plant would need to have? I really love how short these 2 types of wheat grow!
The Apogee Plants can be brought to seed at about 65 days under optimal conditions. Growing for >80 days is more typical for a mature head.

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 80 - 10:03:46 ]
Our next chat is scheduled for Noon Eastern Time on May 8th. It will cover using our Plant Production Simulator in life support questions related to space missions. Please visit the Internation Space Station Challenge Project Web site for additional details: http://www.cotf.edu/iss/activities/farminspace.asp .

[ LaurieRubergNASACOTF - 81 - 10:03:52 ]
Thanks Bob, Gary, and Tom for sharing. A lot of useful information came out of today's chat. Mehgan, I think we'd like to see images from your LCD chamber as well.

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 82 - 10:04:26 ]
Thank you, Bob, Gary, Tom, Mehgan, Laurie and other students for making this such an interesting chat!

[ GaryStuttePESTOPrincipalInvestigator - 83 - 10:04:36 ]
Thanks to everyone

[ BobMorrowBPShardwaredeveloper - 84 - 10:04:52 ]
RE: [DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture] Our next chat is scheduled for Noon Eastern Time on May 8th. It will cover using our Plant Production Simulator in life support questions related to space missions. Please visit the Internation Space Station Challenge Project Web site for additional details: http://www.cotf.edu/iss/activities/farminspace.asp .
Any last questions before I sign off?

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 85 - 10:06:23 ]
Will the validation test be held at KSC? How many days will it last?

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 86 - 10:09:50 ]
Thanks, everyone. That's a wrap!

[ BobMorrowBPShardwaredeveloper - 87 - 10:10:43 ]
RE: [DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture] Will the validation test be held at KSC? How many days will it last?
The validation test is being conducted at KSC and will run from May 9 through June 15, although we have already started test preparations.

[ DrCummings/NASAClassroomOfTheFuture - 88 - 10:16:42 ]
Thanks, Bob! Very best wishes with a successful Mission Validation Test!!