From ntia Mon Nov 14 09:07:56 1994 Received: (from ntia@localhost) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA06933; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 09:07:56 -0800 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 09:07:56 -0800 From: NTIA Virtual Conference Message-Id: <199411141707.JAA06933@virtconf.digex.net> To: avail, intellec, opnacces, privacy, redefus, standard Subject: NTIA Virtual Conference KeyNote Address WELCOMING STATEMENT FROM DEPUTY SECRETARY OF COMMERCE DAVID BARRAM Welcome to the Virtual Conference on Universal Service and Open Access to the Telecommunications Network. In hosting this conference we seek to broaden our reach beyond the physical limits of any conference room or auditorium. The NII will tear down the barriers of time and distance. This conference, like the NII itself, is meant to be inclusive and your ideas are welcome and encouraged. Your participation will help make it a success. This effort is jointly sponsored by the National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA) and the Information Infrastructure Task Force (IITF), as part of the Administration's National Information Infrastructure initiative. Through the NII, the Administration is focusing on the ability of computer mediated communications to enhance the life and work of every American. The NII is a harbinger of change, both economic and political, and holds great promise for the future of America. Some benefits of the NII include telecommuting, distance learning and active life-long education, remote consultations with expert medical professionals, as well as new forms of art, entertainment and culture. This conference continues the dialog started by NTIA's five field hearings, held over the past nine months in cities throughout America. Unlike the field hearings, this conference allows for a much wider participation, and more in-depth discussion on the issues. There are over 80 public access points in 25 states. With this conference we are hoping to:  Garner opinions and views on universal telecommunications service that may shape the legislative and regulatory debate.  Demonstrate how networking technology can broaden participation in the development of government policies, specifically, universal service telecommunications policy.  Illustrate the potential for using the NII to create an electronic commons.  Create a network of individuals and institutions that will continue the dialog started by the conference, once the formal sponsorship is over. This conference is an experiment in a new form of dialog among citizens and with their government. The conference is not a one- way, top down approach, it is a conversation. It holds the promise of reworking the compact between citizens and their government. I thank you once again for your participation. From catalog@clpgh.org Mon Nov 14 09:54:05 1994 Received: from clp2.clpgh.org (clp2.clpgh.org [192.204.3.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA10188 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 09:53:52 -0800 Received: by clp2.clpgh.org (MX V4.1 VAX) id 1; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 09:46:10 EST Sender: catalog@clpgh.org Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 09:46:08 EST From: catalog@clp2.clpgh.org Reply-To: catalog@clpgh.org To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Message-ID: <0098772D.041A8420.1@clp2.clpgh.org> Subject: XXXX CCCC From <@QUCDN.QueensU.CA:andrukow@cspo.QueensU.CA> Mon Nov 14 10:00:12 1994 Received: from QUCDN.QueensU.CA (QUCDN.QueensU.CA [130.15.126.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA10717 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 10:00:10 -0800 Received: from cspo.QueensU.CA by QUCDN.QueensU.CA (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 14 Nov 94 09:51:24 EST Received: by cspo.QueensU.CA (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA14316; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 09:53:02 +0600 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 09:53:02 -0600 (CST) From: Alison Andrukow X-Sender: andrukow@cspo To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII content-length: 21 sign me up. alison. From avail@ga295a.attmail.com Mon Nov 14 10:24:50 1994 Received: from pjl53ig.i-p.attmail.com (PJL53IG.I-P.MAIL.ATT.NET [198.152.2.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA13529 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 10:24:49 -0800 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 10:36:02 -0500 From: avail@ga295a.attmail.com (avail) Received: from ga295a by attmail; Mon Nov 14 15:07 GMT 1994 Subject: NTIA Conference To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Content-Type: Text Message-ID: cancel subscription avail Dave Porter From avail@ga295a.attmail.com Mon Nov 14 10:25:16 1994 Received: from pjl53ig.i-p.attmail.com (PJL53IG.I-P.MAIL.ATT.NET [198.152.2.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA13591 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 10:25:15 -0800 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 11:05:32 -0500 From: avail@ga295a.attmail.com (avail) Received: from ga295a by attmail; Mon Nov 14 15:11 GMT 1994 Subject: NTIA Conference To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Content-Type: Text Message-ID: cancel subscription avail ga295a!avail From <@QUCDN.QueensU.CA:andrukow@cspo.QueensU.CA> Mon Nov 14 10:34:57 1994 Received: from QUCDN.QueensU.CA (QUCDN.QueensU.CA [130.15.126.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA14532 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 10:34:56 -0800 Received: from cspo.QueensU.CA by QUCDN.QueensU.CA (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 14 Nov 94 10:26:11 EST Received: by cspo.QueensU.CA (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA14511; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 10:27:50 +0600 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 10:27:50 -0600 (CST) From: Alison Andrukow X-Sender: andrukow@cspo To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Subscribe Alison Andrukow Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII content-length: 27 Subscribe Alison Andrukow From CHOURA%A1@COMMERCE.STATE.MI.US Mon Nov 14 10:53:55 1994 Received: from MDOC-VAX.COMMERCE.STATE.MI.US ([148.149.33.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA16037 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 10:53:53 -0800 Received: from MR.COMMERCE.STATE.MI.US by MDOC-VAX.COMMERCE.STATE.MI.US (PMDF V4.2-13 #5361) id <01HJGT64DAKG9KN989@MDOC-VAX.COMMERCE.STATE.MI.US>; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 10:41:32 EDT Received: with PMDF-MR; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 10:41:05 EDT MR-Received: by mta MDOC; Relayed; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 10:41:05 -0400 Alternate-recipient: prohibited Disclose-recipients: prohibited Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 15:33:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Ron Choura 517-334-6240 Subject: NARUC Comments D.J Miller To: AVAIL@VIRTCONF.NTIA.DOC.GOV Message-id: <01HJGT66WX6U9KN989@MR.COMMERCE.STATE.MI.US> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Posting-date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 15:37:00 -0400 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal X400-MTS-identifier: [;50140141114991/36340@MDOC] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 0 AFFORDABILITY AND AVAILABILITY OF UNIVERSAL SERVICE Reflections of Commissioner Dean J. (Joe) Miller, Commissioner Chair, NARUC Committee on Communications What's the Problem Here? The goal of widely available, affordable communications services is already firmly rooted in law. Few, if any, policy makers doubt the wisdom of the goal as a guiding principle for the future. So, what's the problem? The problem is we have traditionally pursued the goal through the vehicle of regulated monopolies. In return for its dual commitment to extend service to all takers and to keep prices affordable, state government shielded the monopoly from competition. This approach was reasonable enough in its day. Now, however, there is near universal consensus that opening up these markets to competition will lead to enhanced benefit for most consumers. But, can we be sure that market forces alone will achieve the goal of widely available, affordable services for all Americans? Is action by state and federal governments needed? What should be done? Don't Worry, There is an Answer. The first step is for federal and state governments to commit themselves to the following principles which were developed by the National Association of Regulatory Utility Commissioners during legislative consideration of the issue in the 103rd Congress: o States and the FCC should work cooperatively, through a Joint Board, to develop universal service criteria and standards; o Federal universal service policies should ensure that all citizens are provided access to those basic telecommunications services that are available to the majority of citizens throughout the U.S.. Mechanisms to support federal policies should be funded by interstate providers. o States must be permitted to continue developing and redefining universal service policies that best meet the needs of subscribers within their jurisdictions, as long as such policies do not make it impossible to achieve Federal statutory mandates. States must retain the ability to develop intrastate universal service support mechanisms. o As technology enhances telecommunications capabilities, the package of universally available basic services must continue to meet expanding customer needs. o States must have the ability to ensure that high quality service is provided in markets that are less competitive or attractive for investment. o States must retain the authority to designate intrastate carrier(s) of last resort, and the terms and conditions under which these carriers receive universal service funds and provide services. o Advanced telecommunications services should not be legislatively mandated for inclusion in the definition of universal service. Universal service funding of such services is not appropriate unless and until a critical mass of demand develops. Inclusion of such services in the definition would yield anticompetitive results, since services typically included in universal service do not have all relevant costs allocated to them. Additional Useful Guidance Now that we have established the correct governmental arrangments to address the question through adherence to the foregoing principles, some additional things should be kept in mind as a guide to policy formation. They are: First, universal service under its traditional definition of "plain old telephone service" has not yet been achieved. Aggregate data such as the nationwide average penetration level as the benchmark for availability and affordability (as of March 1993, 94.2% of households had telephone service) overlooks the much lower penetration levels among various population segments. For example, in the lowest income category, (under $5,000 annual income), less than 73% of all households have telephone service. African Americans with annual income of less than $5,000 have a penetration rate of only 65.5%. Aggregate data also does not take into account that there are some areas of the country that are not served by a local exchange company. Thus, any discussion of expanding the universal service concept beyond present day meaning also must consider measures to correct these existing deficiencies in penetration rates. Better data should be gathered and baseline group penetration levels should be established as soon as possible. With this data, policy makers can estimate the costs necessary to achieve true universal service at the "POTS" level. Second, as the universal service concept evolves to mean something more than POTS, affordability must continue to be a guiding concern. The present day concept of universal service has been facilitated through explicit funding assistance programs such as the FCC's Lifeline and Linkup programs. Lifeline provides rate relief for low income customers by defraying the costs of the Federal Subscriber Line Charge, whereas Linkup provides credits for nonrecurring installation charges associated with obtaining access to telephone service. These programs must also continue. Third, market force should be the principal driver of technology deployment standards, and drive the evolution of the universal service concept. In high density areas which are the most likely to be subject to competitive pressures, customer demands and needs should direct investment decisions. Regulatory decisions concerning technical standards may or may not accurately anticipate customer preferences, and could cause carriers to incur costs that customers are unwilling to fund through prices paid for service offerings. States may consider using technology deployment in competitive areas as a benchmark or gauge for technology deployment standards in noncompetitive areas. This takes into account that there may be geographic areas where customer demand for advanced services or competitive pressures may not be sufficient for carriers to decide to make such investments and that market driven technology decisions alone may be inadequate for assuring that the universal service concept is expanded to all customers. Conclusion Thanks to NTIA for soliciting these views which, while informed by the policies of the National Association of Regulatory Utility Commissioners, are my own and not necessarily those of the Association. From wvia@scranton.com Mon Nov 14 11:28:11 1994 Received: from lydian (root@lydian.scranton.com [199.234.242.1]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA18513 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 11:28:10 -0800 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 11:21:16 +0000 From: WVIA Virtual Conference Account To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII subscribe wvia From ntiagate@virgin.uvi.edu Mon Nov 14 20:24:55 1994 Received: from virgin.uvi.edu (virgin.uvi.edu [146.226.200.110]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA09606 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 20:24:50 -0800 Received: from localhost (ntiagate@localhost) by virgin.uvi.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) id VAA08514 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 21:02:54 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 00:27:42 GMT From: ab368@virgin.uvi.edu (Bruce Potter) Message-ID: <1994Nov15.002742.7646@virgin.uvi.edu> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Need for Federal Oversight of Access and Availability Joe Miller made a good case for the supremacy of state authority and regulation of most aspects of access and availability to National Information Infrastructure telecommunications facilities. His analysis, however, overlooks the real problems faced by small, geographically isolated areas such as the US Virgin Islands, where this message originates. Until Chairman Charles Ferris held local hearings in the Virgin Islands in the late 1970's, the Federal government had exercised no control over the extortionate rates then being charged by the Territory's monopoly long distance carrier, which were four to five times greater per mile than long distance tariffs in the continental United States. When faced with the resources and persuasive power (legal and otherwise) of enormous multinational corporations with annual incomes that are orders of magnitude greater than some of the territories they serve, only a capable and committed national guarantee of access, and a national cost pool can provide access to these new technology resources. And THE INTERNET IS ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT to areas with limited access to technical and scientific rerources. As one of the leading non-profit eduational foundations devoted to the environmental problems of small tropical islands, we (Island Resources Foundation) are amazed at the richness of the Internet resource, and terribly concerned that our constituents throughout all of the world's oceans are going to closed out from access to this resource because of monopoly pricing policies. To the NTIA, we ask careful attention to the equity issues of access, and a federal guarantee of access and availability. Island Resources Foundation iresource@aol.com -- ISLAND RESOURCES FOUNDATION {&} 1718 "P" Street NW, #t-4 6296 Estate Nazareth, #11, STT 00802{#} Washington, DC 20036 809/775-6225; fax 779-2022 {#} 202/265-9712; fax 232-0748 ab368@virgin.uvi.edu {#} iresources@aol.com From ntiagate@virgin.uvi.edu Mon Nov 14 20:25:01 1994 Received: from virgin.uvi.edu (virgin.uvi.edu [146.226.200.110]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA09608 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 20:24:54 -0800 Received: from localhost (ntiagate@localhost) by virgin.uvi.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) id VAA08510 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 21:02:53 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 14:24:16 GMT From: ab368@virgin.uvi.edu (Bruce Potter) Message-ID: <1994Nov14.142416.16498@virgin.uvi.edu> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Affordability and Availability for Offshore Territories Access to the services of the Internet is quickly becoming an essential element of many of the information intensive organizations in the United States. Our organization -- Island Resources Foundation -- is a non-profit educational organization which has been working with small developing island-states on the environmental problems of development for the past 23 years. We see the Internet as an indispensable tool for our own communication and research needs, as long as we are working out of our Washington DC branch office. Until the recent establishment of a Freenet in the US Virgin Islands, however, we had virtually no way to link our activities in Washington with any of our constituents. Now we can communicate better with clients in the Virgin Islands, but further links to other Caribbean states are almost impossible because of the extremely high communication charges levied by regional long distance carriers, outside of the US possessions. In previous years the Virgin Islands also suffered from extremely high telephone rates charged by ITT. In hearings conducted by Charles Ferris, former chairman of the FCC, these rates were shown to be purely the result of monopoly power by the long distance company, and the tarifs were ordered sharply reduced by the FCC. In the course of those hearings Chairman Ferris clearly made the case that access and availablility of telecommunications services at exorbitant rates was not acceptable in a democratic society. The territories are not naive in insisting that the information infrastructure must accomodate both access AND low rates. Without both, the territories will receive no benefit and will in fact find their needs increasingly marginalized. -- ISLAND RESOURCES FOUNDATION {&} 1718 "P" Street NW, #t-4 6296 Estate Nazareth, #11, STT 00802{#} Washington, DC 20036 809/775-6225; fax 779-2022 {#} 202/265-9712; fax 232-0748 ab368@virgin.uvi.edu {#} iresources@aol.com >From news Mon Nov 14 20:27:47 1994 Received: from localhost (news@localhost) by virgin.uvi.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) id UAA07699 for alt-ntia-avail@virgin; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 20:27:46 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 20:27:46 -0400 From: News User Message-Id: <199411150027.UAA07699@virgin.uvi.edu> To: alt-ntia-avail@virgin.uvi.edu Status: RO X-Status: From twigs@sils.umich.edu Mon Nov 14 20:38:06 1994 Received: from sils.umich.edu (sils.umich.edu [141.211.203.30]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA09731 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 20:38:05 -0800 Received: by sils.umich.edu (8.6.8/2.0) id UAA02379; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 20:32:05 -0500 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 20:32:04 -0500 (EST) From: "Cynthia S. Terwilliger" Subject: Re: [AVAIL:8] To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII please subscribe On Mon, 14 Nov 1994, WVIA Virtual Conference Account wrote: > subscribe wvia > From twigs@sils.umich.edu Mon Nov 14 20:42:26 1994 Received: from sils.umich.edu (sils.umich.edu [141.211.203.30]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA09798 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 20:42:25 -0800 Received: by sils.umich.edu (8.6.8/2.0) id UAA02636; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 20:36:25 -0500 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 20:36:24 -0500 (EST) From: "Cynthia S. Terwilliger" Subject: Re: [AVAIL:8] To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 14 Nov 1994, WVIA Virtual Conference Account wrote: > subscribe wvia > From WHITTLE@SMTPGATE.sunydutchess.edu Mon Nov 14 22:02:58 1994 Received: from admaix.sunydutchess.edu (admaix.sunydutchess.edu [198.242.208.250]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA10524 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 22:02:57 -0800 Received: by admaix.sunydutchess.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA51246; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 21:54:26 -0500 Message-Id: <9411150254.AA51246@admaix.sunydutchess.edu> Received: from smtpgate id: 2EC82295.9C9 (WordPerfect SMTP Gateway V3.1a 04/27/92) Received: from admaix (WP Connection) Received: from TCPBRIDGE (WP Connection) Received: from CCBET_SERVER (WP Connection) Received: from CIS_SERVER (WP Connection) From: (Whittle, Frank ) To: Date: Mon Nov 14 21:53:09 1994 I am currently conducting dissertation research on the relationship between promoting a telecommunication policy favoring economic development and one favoring universal service. Specifically, I am interested in providing a stakeholder analysis to determine the level of agreement and/or disagreement in perceptions on this relationship. The term "economic development" has become prominent in state telecommunication policy during the last ten years as the states battle to retain and attract industry. It appears from the preliminary research that the issue of providing universal access (services) has become less prominent in policy documents. Although my study will concentrate on policy in New York State, I would welcome any leads on previous research in this area. Also, I am interested in any comments you may have and/or suggestions in this area. Thanks. Frank Whittle Chairman, CIS Dutchess Community College Poughkeepsie, New York PhD Candidate SUNY @ Albany email: whittle@sunydutchess.edu From vcavail@latte.spl.lib.wa.us Mon Nov 14 23:35:50 1994 Received: from rs6a.wln.com (rs6a.wln.com [192.156.252.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA11207 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 23:35:47 -0800 Received: from latte.spl.lib.wa.us by rs6a.wln.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.06) id AA103194; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 20:26:30 -0800 Received: by latte.spl.lib.wa.us; (5.65/1.1.8.2/30Oct94-0722PM) id AA05880; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 20:30:15 -0800 Received: by latte.spl.lib.wa.us; (5.65/1.1.8.2/30Oct94-0722PM) id AA05872; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 20:30:14 -0800 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 20:30:14 -0800 (PST) From: Affordabilty and Availability To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <199411141707.JAA06933@virtconf.digex.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subscribe Ref Lindmark "The above message was sent from the Seattle Public Library public access point. Though the Library is pleased to make this service available, The views expressed in this message do not necessarily represent the position of the Seattle Public Library." On Mon, 14 Nov 1994 vcavail@latte.spl.lib.wa.us wrote: > Subject: [AVAIL:1] NTIA Virtual Conference KeyNote Address > X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas > X-Comment: Gatewayed to newsgroup alt.ntia.avail > Status: O > > X-From: NTIA Virtual Conference > > > WELCOMING STATEMENT FROM > DEPUTY SECRETARY OF COMMERCE DAVID BARRAM > > Welcome to the Virtual Conference on Universal Service and Open > Access to the Telecommunications Network. In hosting this > conference we seek to broaden our reach beyond the physical > limits of any conference room or auditorium. The NII will tear > down the barriers of time and distance. This conference, like > the NII itself, is meant to be inclusive and your ideas are > welcome and encouraged. Your participation will help make it a > success. > > This effort is jointly sponsored by the National > Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA) and the > Information Infrastructure Task Force (IITF), as part of the > Administration's National Information Infrastructure initiative. > Through the NII, the Administration is focusing on the ability of > computer mediated communications to enhance the life and work of > every American. The NII is a harbinger of change, both economic > and political, and holds great promise for the future of America. > Some benefits of the NII include telecommuting, distance learning > and active life-long education, remote consultations with expert > medical professionals, as well as new forms of art, entertainment > and culture. > > This conference continues the dialog started by NTIA's five field > hearings, held over the past nine months in cities throughout > America. Unlike the field hearings, this conference allows for a > much wider participation, and more in-depth discussion on the > issues. There are over 80 public access points in 25 states. > > With this conference we are hoping to: > >  Garner opinions and views on universal telecommunications > service that may shape the legislative and regulatory > debate. > >  Demonstrate how networking technology can broaden > participation in the development of government policies, > specifically, universal service telecommunications policy. > >  Illustrate the potential for using the NII to create an > electronic commons. > >  Create a network of individuals and institutions that will > continue the dialog started by the conference, once the > formal sponsorship is over. > > This conference is an experiment in a new form of dialog among > citizens and with their government. The conference is not a one- > way, top down approach, it is a conversation. It holds the > promise of reworking the compact between citizens and their > government. > > I thank you once again for your participation. > From cyberoid@u.washington.edu Tue Nov 15 00:27:48 1994 Received: from stein1.u.washington.edu (cyberoid@stein1.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.1]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA11571 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 00:27:46 -0800 Received: by stein1.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW94.4/UW-NDC Revision: 2.30 ) id AA23585; Mon, 14 Nov 94 21:19:55 -0800 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 94 21:19:55 -0800 From: Robert Jacobson Message-Id: <9411150519.AA23585@stein1.u.washington.edu> X-Sender: cyberoid@stein1.u.washington.edu To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Brief History: CA's Universal Telephone Service Act CALIFORNIA'S UNIVERSAL TELEPHONE SERVICE ACT ITS ORIGIN IN 1983: A CHANGING TELECOMMUNICATIONS SCENE California's Universal Telephone Service Act, the "Moore Act" of 1983 (Asm. Gwen Moore, D-L.A.), has set one successful example for how to manage universal telephone/telecommunications service. The Moore Act, which I helped to draft, enunciated certain principles of civic rights and necessities requiring citizen access to the means of communication; set forth the necessary rules to govern the way in which rates for local service and long-distance, including more advanced digital services, would be balanced; and delegated to CA's Public Utilities Commission responsibility for overseeing the Moore Act's mechanisms, providing outreach to target communities, and preventing fraud on the part of service recipients. The necessity of the Moore Act became clear in 1982, when a Consent Decree was signed breaking up the former AT&T Bell System. As part of the Decree, competitive long-distance services would be permitted to set their own rates (within certain antitrust guidelines); usually, this meant they went down. Local rates, on the other hand, were not permitted to vary since local telephone companies in 1982 and thereafter held effective monopolies in their service areas. Nevertheless, they were responsible for expansion and maintenance of the local telephone network which remained a vital "feeder system" for the long-distance companies. Even with the imposition of a so-called "access charge" paid by the long-distance companies to the local companies, prices for long-distance service still fell precipitously. Long-distance customers, who were overwhelming large corporations and government agencies (fewer than 35 percent of all telephone customers made the vast majority of long- distance phone calls), were receiving the vast benefits of reduced rates. This situation was exacerbated by the FCC's imposition of another type of "access charge," this one on local telephone customers, supposedly to offset losses to the local telephone companies of support formerly built into the unified national telephone system. It was estimated, by 1986 -- even though competition was just getting started in a big way -- that the subsidy flowing from local telephone customers (individuals and small businesses) to large customers was as much as $4 billion annually. (Today it may be more.) Those who paid the worst price were less able to benefit by reduced long-distance rates: the poor. Faced with customer access charges and climbing local rates, the poor were on the verge of losing all telephone service. This would create potential voids in the social fabric and non inconsequential fiscal effects. Not only would it be more difficult to reach certain people via any form of telephone service, but the social costs of emergencies untended (which could very well affect insurance premiums and public outlays) might be considerable. A SOLUTION IN PRINCIPLE AND PRACTICE: THE MOORE ACT In 1983, an unusual coalition of local and long-distance telephone companies, cable television companies, the PUC, and public interest groups combined to pass the Moore Act. A fairly complete account of the up's and down's of this legislation, and its eventual passage by a Democratic legislature and signing into law by a Republican governor, can be read in AN "OPEN" APPROACH TO INFORMATION POLICYMAKING, R. Jacobson, Ablex, 1989. The resulting law set forth a minimal local service to which one could subscribe -- a limited number of calls each month -- at a low price. There was no means test associated with the legislation: the quality of the reduced Lifeline Service was intended to be an inherent deterrent to abuse. It was an absolute minimum. Subsequent surveys and random spot checks by the PUC produced evidence that the law was in fact serving its intended population: fewer than five percent of all subscribers were earning above the poverty line, a rate of "abuse" much lower than almost any other entitlement program. Support for the program was obtained by a small proportional charge on long-distance service (which nevertheless hardly reduced cost savings to long-distance customers). Very few complaints were heard from participants on either side of the line. No one wanted holes to form in California's telephone service. Moreover, no phone company in CA, local or long-distance, suffered appreciably from this legislation. The most ardent opponent, AT&T, consistently tried to reduce the level of support for the Moore Act; but not with great heat. Its customers' savings were still large and the company did not lose its position as the dominant long-distance telephone company as a result of the Moore Act, either. The one exception to paying into the Universal Telephone Service Fund, as the pool of monies for offering Lifeline Service was called, was the cable television companies -- so long as they did not offer two-way telephone service. The PUC must revisit the issue if the cable television companies in fact become telephone service providers. A measure of comity among the various parties to the Moore Act has made it a success, both as a statement of social policy -- everyone in a free society must have access to the means of effective communication -- and as a mechanism for keeping intact an imperiled public telecommunications network. Although several attempts to pass legislation based on the Moore Act were attempted by both other states and the Congress, the breakdown of this comity led to rivalry and self-interest. As a result, some of these new laws incorporated elements antithetical to the Moore Act (for example, at the urging of long-distance carriers, many state enacted a lifeline-service means test, which converted telecommunications policy into social-welfare policy). Others simply missed the boat and did not effect the balance of interests maintained by the Moore Act to this day. CONCLUSIONS The PUC is empowered by the legislation to revisit the Moore Act on a regular basis and adjust both the definition of Lifeline Service and various rate flows, as it sees fit. At last count, something like 15 percent of the CA telephone subscribing population -- almost all resident in households earning at or below the poverty level -- received Lifeline Service. Obviously, this does not include all families currently receiving local telephone service of other types whose use patterns and income makes them likely recipients of Lifeline Service: as many as another 10 percent of local telephone customers should be availing themselves of Lifeline Service. The PUC has had to compel telephone companies in CA to inaugurate outreach efforts to these citizens. (At one point, a local telephone company had to be fined for not properly informing new subscribers about Lifeline Service, and the amount has been used, in part, for these outreach efforts.) Generally, however, Lifeline Service has worked well. While the Moore Act was passed and first implemented in simpler times, when telephone service was still largely POTS mixed with patches of cellular telephone service and smatterings of digital services, it retains its relevance and applicability today. The PUC is authorized to report to the legislature its conclusions regarding the quality of Lifeline Service, which it may implement with legislative approval. It is quite that plans to fully digitize CA's telephone network, promoted most avidly by CA's largest local telephone service companies, Pacific Bell and GTE California, will best be realized if Lifeline Service, for those most in need, is redefined to include basic digital services as well as conventional analog service. After all, from the standpoint of the customer, delivery of service is technologically invisible except for new services that could not exist without a digital network. The same principles of funding expansion of the local network, as a digital rather than analog system, can be logically applied in 1994 as they were in 1984, the first year that the Moore Act took effect. The PUC can determine, after public hearings with input from various parties, just how broad Lifeline Service needs to be to prevent tears in the social fabric of communications. Much is said these days about the need for "redefinition" and "availability" of universal telephone service. In fact, this very discussion was preceded by these unfortunate terms. First, these terms presume that universal service exists already, which it by no means does: many Americans are still involuntarily without telephone service because they are poor or transients. Some living in rual areas find the cost of telephone service disproportionately expensive. (In CA, a Rural Telephone Fund was established, on a company-company basis, to keep rural people comfortably on the net and thus not encourage them to abandon farms and businesses in rural areas that might otherwise become uneconomic because of rapidly rising prices of service.) While opinions and surveys differ, this unserved proportion of the population is at least five and may be as large as 15 percent of all Americans -- a lot of people. Second, reduced-cost services like CA's Lifeline Service are the exception, not the rule. They are completely unavailable to most Americans. The nation might have as its most immediate goal remedying these situations before beginning to overhaul the few programs that do exist to provide equitable access to communications, in an "information age" the essence of American's First Amendment rights. The NTIA and FCC can further the cause of communications equity by examining existing programs designed to provide universal access to the means of communication, not only for their economic viability but also for their deep principles. These principles, and not trendy neo- economic rationales, should be applied to answering the problem of attaining universal access on a national basis, for all Americans. Robert Jacobson, Ph.D. Former Principal Consultant (Senior Staff Analyst) and Committee Staff Director, Assembly Utilities and Commerce Committee, CA Legislature, 1981-1989 From correav@clpgh.org Tue Nov 15 09:53:01 1994 Received: from clp2.clpgh.org (clp2.clpgh.org [192.204.3.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA15276 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 09:53:00 -0800 Received: by clp2.clpgh.org (MX V4.1 VAX) id 60; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 09:45:13 EST Sender: correav@clpgh.org Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 09:45:07 EST From: Virginia Correa Reply-To: correav@clpgh.org To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Message-ID: <009877F6.09E3BD80.60@clp2.clpgh.org> Subject: testing alt.ntia.avail Path: clpgh.org!correav From: correav@clpgh.org (Virginia Correa) Newsgroups: alt.ntia.avail Subject: testing alt.ntia.avail Message-ID: <1994Nov15.094430.2653@clp2> Date: 15 Nov 94 09:44:30 -5 Organization: Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh News-Moderator: Approval required for posting to alt.ntia.avail Lines: 8 Test msg. from correav to alt.ntia.avail -- +++ Virginia Correa - Head, Automation Division +++ The Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh +++ 4400 Forbes Ave., Pittsburgh, PA 15213 +++ correav@clpgh.org - 412-622-1945 +++ Virginia Correa - Head, Automation Division +++ The Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh +++ 4400 Forbes Ave., Pittsburgh, PA 15213 +++ correav@clpgh.org - 412-622-1945 From chage@rahul.net Tue Nov 15 10:11:21 1994 Received: from tango.rahul.net (root@tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA15513 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 10:11:11 -0800 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA03651 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 15 Nov 1994 07:03:14 -0800 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA18596 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Tue, 15 Nov 1994 07:03:06 -0800 Received: by slick.chage.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18658; Tue, 15 Nov 94 03:11:23 PST Date: Tue, 15 Nov 94 03:11:23 PST From: chage@rahul.net (Carl Hage) Message-Id: <9411151111.AA18658@slick.chage.com> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Key Issues of Affordability and Availability There has been a significant amount of discussion about availability and affordability issues, in the prior meeting. However, I believe that much of the discussion has been at a high level, and some important details of the economic issues have been omitted. In this message, I'll list what I think are the key problems to be addresses. Perhaps some of the other readers whould like to comment, and perhaps offer solutions. In a later message, I will offer my own comments on solutions for these problems and other problems raised by other readers. I. 10 KEY PROBLEMS Here are what I think are some key problems which need to be addressed as part of the NII program: 1. Current Internet access costs favor large organizations. 2. Large organizations have better network services available. 3. Telecommunications resources currently are not efficiently utilized. 4. Telephone companies do not offer packet oriented service at low cost 5. Monopoly Telephone and Cable companies are competing with each other, not providing an economical digital communications infrastructure. 6. On demand video may be subsidized by telephone and computer data 7. Types of telephone service available decrease competition for net access 8. Internet access fees are based on peak transmit rate not quantity of data 9. The networking industry is building products for large businesses 10. High density areas may obtain preferential access to independent providers ----- 1. Current Internet access costs favor large organizations. High speed internet access over a dedicated connection can be obtained in a large company (or medium speed access in a medium sized company) for a few dollars per month. An individual (e.g. telecommuter, home user, small library, kiosk, disabled telecommuter, etc.) or small business cannot afford dedicated access. Slow (modem) speed dialup access costs an order of magnitude more than the dedicated access to large organizations. Lets compare the monthly costs per person for a few scenarios. Suppose each person will retrieve about 1MB per day, or about the equivalent of 10 books 100 pages long in compressed form. (The numbers below are representative of costs in the San Francisco area. Not all detailed costs are shown, but the comparisons should be valid.) Large 1000 person company Premium connection at 1500Kb/s $3000 T1 telephone line 20miles $1000 Cost per user/month $4 Time to retrieve a 100 page document .5sec Utilization over 8 hours 20% Medium 100 person company ISDN connection at 128Kb/s $310 ISDN telephone line $30 Usage charges 8hrs local $192 Usage if provider is >7 miles $768 Cost per user/month $5 Time to retrieve a 100 page document 6sec Utilization over 8 hours 20% Individual (1 person company, telecommuter, library, ATM machine, etc.) Dedicated service at 14Kb/s $90 POTS telephone line $15 Usage charges 8hrs local $96 Usage if provider is >7 miles $384 Cost per user/month $100-200 Time to retrieve a 100 page document 56sec Utilization over 8 hours .2% In a large organization a high speed communication link can be obtained for a few dollars per person per month, which permits very fast retrieval of documents. The cost of very low because a single internet link can be shared across a LAN with thousands of users. A medium sized organization would need to pay substantially more per person to obtain high speed (T1) access. However an ISDN line could be used to obtain a moderate speed link and still keep costs within a few dollars per month. A nearby commercial internet service provider would be needed to avoid high telephone usage costs. In this scenario, no usage is assumed after business hours. If a local internet provider was not available, or if access after the 8hr business day is required, a Frame-Relay connection could be obtained at comparable cost at half the speed. An individual has no ability to share the telecomunications costs, except by finding a nearby commercial internet service provider who will provide modem access. If a user wants a dedicated connection, they would need to pay for 2 phone lines (1 for the user plus 1 dedicated line to the internet provider) to the internet provider's modem and router. All modem users at the provider's router share a link to the provider who in turn connects to the internet. Most individuals cannot afford a dedicated connection, so a slow (modem) speed dialup connection would be used instead. This puts the individual or small business at a disadvantage. An internet access account is typically about $20/month. Some providers charge usage fees which are $2/hour. A medium-small business (e.g. 10-100 users) can obtain an email and news only access. With this type of account, the newer services like gopher and WWW are not available except via a email server. A scenario for email only service is: 10 Person Company with email/news only access: UUCP Access $20 Telephone line $15 Telephone Usage charges (xmit) $9 Telephone usage polling $40 Cost per person $8 The polling charge is the cost to dial the provider once every 20 minutes during the day (once per hour other times). In this case it might take 20 minutes to deliver an email message. If this company had a dedicated connection, email would be delivered within a minute or so. 2. Large organizations have better network services available. As explained in the scenarios above, medium-high speed dedicated access is easily within reach in medium-large companies. An individual or small business may not be able to afford dedicated access, limiting the applications which could be used, and adding substantial delivery times for email, etc. Instead of having email delivered within a minute, a delay, e.g. 20 minutes, might be added. 3. Telecommunications resources currently are not efficiently utilized. Currently, two dedicated telephone lines plus one shared line is used for modem access, whereas a single shared line could be used. The telephone companies may use thousands of times the neighborhood and interoffice transmission resource to provide connection oriented service vs packet oriented digital communications. Consider the typical access available to most people with modems: user (modem)-------------------------------->(telco office) | v provider POP (modem)<------------------------(telco office) provider POP (modem)<-- (other dialup lines) ... | v router (digital line)------------------------>(telco office) | v provider HQ<---------------------------------(telco office) | v router (digital line)=======================>(telco office) | v (internet backbone) In order to access the internet, a user must dial a modem supplied by an access provider. In order to avoid long distance telephone charges, each internet provider (IP) must provide a nearby POP (Point Of Presence) which has a set of modems connected a router linked to the IP headquarters via a shared digital link. At the headquarters, the IP has a central router to computers for services it offers, e.g. news, and a high speed connection to the internet backbone. Three telephone lines are used to get to the IP-HQ. Two lines are consumed to connect to a POP, and the third line from the POP to the IP-HQ is shared by all users who connect to the POP. The telephone companies offer only "connection oriented" service rather than the "packet oriented" service used for computer communication. If a user dials up an IP, the telephone company is continuously transmitting 64Kb per direction for each connection, even though the user is not transmitting any information. For example, a page of information (e.g. email) might take a few minutes to read, but might take only a second to transmit. A message which took three minutes to read would consume 5000 times as much information in the connection oriented telephone switch as would be required to transmit via a packet oriented switching technology. If the telephone companies offered packet oriented digital service, the topology of the diagram above might look like: user (box)===|(street) user (box)===|(router)==========| ... ===| | user (box)===| |(neighborhood) |(router )=====>(telco office) user (box)===|(building) | | user (box)===|(router )========| | ... ===| v user (box)===| provider HQ<========(telco office) Rather than have each user consume a complete line to the telco central office (CO), a single line could be shared by several users. Since the average transmission utilization of an individual is low, a shared line, like a "party line", would have almost the same performance as a dedicated line. If the distance between the user and the first level of router is small, then high speed transmission is possible. For example, a 15000Kb transmission rate is possible over ordinary phone wire for limited distance, which is 1000 times faster than the typical 14Kb modem. A similar configuration is used to provide the "video dial tone" service, which is actually mostly traditional cable TV service supplied by the telephone company. Although the telcos investing in "video on demand" service mention computer data, I do not see the plans or infrastructure for allowing general purpose digital communication. An open question is who will provide the building, street, and neighborhood routers. The telephone (or cable) companies own the exising lines and access to them. Because they are in a monopoly position, they do not necessarily have any interest in providing the kind of service required for low cost computer communications or to provide access to third party 4. Telephone companies do not offer packet oriented service at low cost Computer communications occurs in "packets", which is a chunk of data transmitted. A short email message might take a single packet, and a file might take many packets. In between packets, a computer link is idle, so a packet oriented computer data link can be shared by multiple users. The existing voice telephone circuits are "connection oriented", which means they consume a constant amount of data (64Kb) even when people are not speaking. Actually, voice data can be compressed into packets which consumes 1/4 to 1/8 the amount of data normally transmitted (compression ratio of 2:1 to 4:1, unidirectional data flow). Some sounds compress better than others, so the transmission capacity varies slightly. Compressed video also can be divided into a variable number of packets. Typically, however, a fixed transmission rate is used (since that is the type of service available) and the quality is degraded when necessary in order to fit within the fixed transmission capacity. If a variable speed packet switched connection were available, then the transmission rate can be increased when movement occurs, and decreased when the images do not move. This leads to higher quality images, better utilization of the transmission resources, and lower cost. Pacific Bell offers the Frame-Relay service, which is a flat-rate packet oriented service. The delivery times are not guaranteed, so it is not suitable for compressed audio or video. However, they could be used to access an internet service provider without incurring usage charges or mileage fees. The monthly charges are: 56Kb $140 15000Kb $328 45000Kb ATM $4,85O Frame relay on ISDN might be another approach, and PacBell has announced it but (I believe) is not currently pursuing it. I do not know if usage charges would be added. Concievably, ISDN frame-relay could be used to lower the >$200/mo telephone charges in the scenario above. For heavy users, e.g. large companies, this can become attractive and low cost if spread over a large number of users. For an individual with low utilization, these prices are unaffordable. 5. Monopoly Telephone and Cable companies are competing with each other, not providing an economical digital communications infrastructure. The telephone companies, e.g. Pacific Bell, are deploying digital video service, known as "on demand video", as a testbed in a few high density areas. The technology used will be the $4,85O/mo ATM technology to neighborhoods, with either 15000Kb ADSL service over existing twisted pair wiring, or higher rates with new coaxial cable installed. The "video" service is one way TV broadcast, no 2 way videophone service. In all the press releases, the usage for computer communications is barely mentioned. As far as I know, the tests will only involve video service, and no plans exist to permit internet access providers or other digital information sources to have access to this infrastructure. The technology used to deliver cable TV by the telephone companies could be used as a general digital communications infrastructure, offering very high speed access at reasonably low cost. However, the equipment must be designed for bidirectional communications, and users and information providers must have access at the digital packet switching level, not at the video broadcast level. 6. On demand video may be subsidized by telephone and computer data The economics of on demand TV is questionable. The projected cost to deliver a 2 hour movie is $2-$4, depending on whether it is a new release. Note this cost includes, the video servers which hold and retrieve the digital movie data. If we assume the servers have no cost, then comparing the cost for video against existing audio: Video Movie = 6GB Cost/GB = $3/6GB = $.50/GB Audio telephone = .48MB/min Cost/GB = $.01/.00048 = $21/GB The projected cost of delivering video is 40 times the usage charges for telephone service. Unless the tarriffs are radially changed, the price for transmitting audio (and possibly computer data) will be much higher than the price for transmitting video, even though with digital data transmission, there is no distinction, except in level of service. With audio or video transmissions, a guaranteed transmission rate is important. However, most computer data transmissions are not time sensitive, and the speed can be reduced as traffic increases. Thus, computer data can be used to fill the capacity at a lower priority than audio and video transmissions. Thus computer data should be charged at a lower rate than audio or video. It does not appear to me that less than $.50/GB is economically feasable for digital computer data, and the telephone companies would need to charge more. I believe it is fundamentally wrong for monopoly providers to discriminate costs on the content of the data transport. Instead the type of service (guaranteed delivery vs degradable) and total quantity should be used as the basis for usage charges. 7. Types of telephone service available decrease competition for net access Since the telephone companies, etc. do not provide modem access or low cost packet switched service (e.g. frame relay), access must be obtained from a third party internet provider(IP) or BBS, using the extra telephone lines as shown in the diagrams above. In order to avoid very expensive long distance telephone charges, IPs must provide POPs scattered across thier service areas. Because each IP must supply thier own remote POPs, the number of providers with POPs in a given location may be limited. For example, in the San Francisco area, there are a couple dozen companies offering internet access. However, there might only be 3 or 4 companies with local dialup numbers. In some areas there is only 1, and in some all providers are long distance. The major national companies, e.g. Compuserve, have many local numbers, but these companies have very high fees and limited services (e.g. Compuserve does not have full internet access). 8. Internet access fees are based on peak transmit rate not quantity of data There is a current tradition of charging for internet access based on the maximum transmission speed. For example, a 28.8Kb access is 1/2 a 56Kb access, which is 1/2 a 128Kb, etc. A user who uses 100% of the transmission capacity pays the same amount as a user who only uses 1% of the transmission capacity. For some new internet tools such as WWW, an infrequent high speed burst is very desirable. For example, a WWW page containing graphics might need to be retrieved within a few seconds, and then a user might spend a few minutes reading the data. In a large business this type of access is available for a few dollars per month, whereas an individual might need to pay more than $1000/mo with very high setup fees. Users with flat-rate high speed access can transmit video, which can use 100% of a transmission line, whereas a typical WWW user might only use a fraction of a percent. Thus video users end up paying very small rates, whereas typical WWW and email users pay high rates per unit of data. Many users have resisted the idea of usage fees as they could discourage usage. However, if the use fees were set at the cost to add additional capacity (perhaps at a larger scale in the future), then the cost would still be low except for high consumption use like video. For comparison, here are some typical usage charges: Local Daytime telephone $21/GB On demand Video Movie $.50/GB Discount night long dist telephone $100/GB 1000 miles of T3 @ 25% utilization $12/GB PacBell packet data $6400/GB Prodigy Internet Email $16667/GB The T3 trunk lines are used as part of the internet backbone to connect the nation. If over a 24hr period, the trunk line is used on average at 25% of the maximum capacity, then the cost is currently about $10/GB, to add extra backbone capacity. Note this does not include the cost of local access and routers, but does give an approximate order of magnitude. Usage charges for telephone use, e.g. $21/GB, should be higher than computer data since the telephone use requires guaranteed capacity, whereas computer data transfer rates can be degraded as capacity fills. What may users are fearful of is the unreasonable usage rates which do not reflect incremental transmission costs. The usage charges from PacBell for packet switched data and email from major services like Prodigy and Compuserve are examples. If usage charges are comparable to daytime telephone, then a user who retrieves the equivalent of 1000 pages of compressed text per day would only pay $.63/mo in usage charges. In order to reduce usage over the network, there must be some economic incentive for internet providers to keep local copies of data for thier customers, and for users to use the network at night. A usage charge which is lower at off peak times is needed to shift use for bulk email, news, etc. from peak use times to times with excess capacity. Usage charges are also needed to permit reselling of capacity. If the charge is based on peak transfer rate, then companies which divide up and resell access to many users pay the same rate as a single user. Thus many companies restrict the types of use, which ends up limiting competition for service providers. On the other hand, it becomes difficult to choose a provider as they might have thier transmission capacity oversold. 9. The networking industry is building products for large businesses There has been an impressive development in networking technology which offers high speed at low cost. For example, ethernet interfaces for a computer cost $40 and transmit up to 100 meters at 10Mb (10000Kb). These LAN products, and other WAN products, e.g. routers are designed to be used within a single company which might combine many workstations on a LAN with a router to other locations including an internet provider. Likewise, the digital telecommunications services offered by the telephone companies also address the needs of large businesses. Left out are similar products which are designed to be used by multiple companies or individuals, and routers, etc. which are designed to be placed between an individual home or office and the telephone company. For example, the 10Mb ethernet technology could almost be used in an apartment building, professional office building, shopping center, etc. in the way as for a LAN within a single corporation, sharing a single internet access line. However, the telephone company owns the lines outside of each apartment, etc. so it is difficult to implement. Also, the LAN equipment does not assume data from one user should be hidden from another. Although LAN equipment is very low cost, it couldn't be directly used (without encryption) as one business could trivially wiretap another. In order for industry to develop products designed for the ideal topology diagrammed above, there must be some organization to develop standards for equipment and to develop a market controlled by the telephone companies. 10. High density areas may obtain preferential access to independent providers If universal packet switched digital communications is not available through a telephone or cable monopoly, then independent companies will fill the gap. This is more or less the current state for internet access, where a number of companies (from part time bedroom operations to major national providers) compete to provide internet access with a wide variety of services for a wide variety of customers. This can be a free email only connection via modem up to optical fiber tied to the internet backbone. Though internet access is still relatively sparse, the percentage of homes and businesses which have internet access will continue to grow rapidly. Soon, some of the internet providers might try to work around the telephone company and provide service directly to multiple end users. Consider the office buildings in downtown San Francisco. A provider might be able to hook up all companies in a skyscraper with a high speed internet connection at a relatively low cost using LAN technology. Adjacent buildings could be connected together into the same router which uses a single high speed line into the internet. Dozens or hundreds of companies could be pooled together to share a single high speed line, e.g. optical fiber. Even if only 10% of the companies in a skyscraper subscribed, the high density makes costs to provide the service low. A similar scenario can be made for shopping centers, office buildings, apartment and condominium complexes etc. An independent provider would most likely wire up these kinds of buildings before individual houses and other low density areas. If the monopoly providers do not implement low cost packet switched access, then the result may be that the independents may "cherry pick" the high density areas with the lowest cost and highest return, leaving the rest for some future service to be provided by the telephone company. The telephone companies might then be stuck with customers with the highest costs. From vcavail@latte.spl.lib.wa.us Tue Nov 15 11:43:58 1994 Received: from rs6a.wln.com (rs6a.wln.com [192.156.252.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA21968 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 11:43:55 -0800 Received: from latte.spl.lib.wa.us by rs6a.wln.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.06) id AA85367; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 08:34:21 -0800 Received: by latte.spl.lib.wa.us; (5.65/1.1.8.2/30Oct94-0722PM) id AA06858; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 08:38:06 -0800 Received: by latte.spl.lib.wa.us; (5.65/1.1.8.2/30Oct94-0722PM) id AA06850; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 08:38:06 -0800 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 08:38:01 -0800 (PST) From: Affordabilty and Availability To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII subscribe Reggie Moyer subscribe rmoyer "The above message was sent from the Seattle Public Library public access point. Though the Library is pleased to make this service available, The views expressed in this message do not necessarily represent the position of the Seattle Public Library." From ronda@panix.com Tue Nov 15 12:45:24 1994 Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [198.7.0.3]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA00822 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 12:45:23 -0800 Received: by panix2.panix.com id AA19711 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Tue, 15 Nov 1994 12:37:32 -0500 From: Ronda Hauben Message-Id: <199411151737.AA19711@panix2.panix.com> Subject: Re: [AVAIL:13] To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 12:37:31 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9411150254.AA51246@admaix.sunydutchess.edu> from "Whittle, Frank" at Nov 15, 94 11:47:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 5778 > > I am currently conducting dissertation research on the > relationship between promoting a telecommunication policy > favoring economic development and one favoring universal > service. Specifically, I am interested in providing a stakeholder > analysis to determine the level of agreement and/or disagreement > in perceptions on this relationship. This is a helpful distinction because it seems that the real terms of the debate are confused by the effort to replace benefitting the people of the society with "economic development" The two are not the same. The people of our society need the net and need universal service. Economic development substitutes the interests of a small sector of the population and claims it is the whole population. The Internet and the Global Computer Network are providing a very important means for the people of our society to have an ability to speak for themselves and to fight their own battles to better the society. Those who are trying to take the Net away, which the NII thus far has been part of by focusing on the business interests and ignoring the public interests, are forces to try to impede the further development of the Net. I have a paper I have written recently about the development of the Global Network -- looking at its history and development. I would like to post it to this discussion but it is lengthy so want to know if that is ok. Knowing the history of the development of the Net is a very important piece of figuring out how to continue that development, yet that history is hidden while book publishers rush to publish books about how to make a "fortune" off the internet. They won't publish books about how the Net was built. If the Clinton Administration had been interested in the history and development of the Net, one wonders if they would have rushed to place the NII committee in the U.S. Dept of Commerce. > > The term "economic development" has become prominent in state > telecommunication policy during the last ten years as the states > battle to retain and attract industry. It appears from the > preliminary research that the issue of providing universal access > (services) has become less prominent in policy documents. > The whole notion that government has an obligation to serve the public has been lost - instead there is only concern with serving business interests. That is a real loss for our society and has resulted in the U.S. government support and aid to the ever lowering living standard of the majority of people in the U.S. and the lengthening hours of work. Technological advances like the global computer network are needed to make life better for the public - that requires that the whole debate and discussion not only be opened up so the public can be able to make its voices heard, but also that the interests of the public be the primary concern, not the interests of the big corporations. Even Adam Smith in his economic work "The Wealth of Nations" notes that the interests of the public and the interests of the business community are not the same. > Although my study will concentrate on policy in New York State, I > would welcome any leads on previous research in this area. Also, > I am interested in any comments you may have and/or suggestions > in this area. I suggest you and others interested in this question look at the netbook that is available via www and gopher and ftp titled "The Netizens and the Wonderful World of the Net: An Anthology on the History and Impact of the Net" it is available via www in a formated copy from http://scrg.cs.tcd.ie/scrg/u/rcwoods.html and in an unformatted copy from http://www.cc.columbia.edu/~hauben/project_book.html by Gopher: gopher://gopher.cic.net/1/e-serials/alphabetic/a/amateur-computerist/netbook by Anonymous FTP: wuarchive.wustl.edu in directory /doc/misc/acn/netbook > Frank Whittle > email: whittle@sunydutchess.edu > The process by which the Global Computer Network has been built needs to be studied and learned from if the development will go forward - thus there is an important reason to carefully look at the history and impact of what has been built before rushing ahead to change that course. The role the Global Computer Network plays today in helping to make automation work is a tremendously important role. The computer pioneers who were creating time sharing back in the early 1960's were interested in creating a community for those involved in applying and developing computer technology. That is what the Net has become and it has made it possible for this technology to go forward because people get the help they need to solve the difficult problems posed by the technology. When J.C.R. Licklider, who can be called the Father of the old Arpanet (which set the basis for the internet) looked to a future vision for the Net, he proposed that as the Net expanded it would need more and more people to help with the debugging that was required to help it expand and therefore there was a need to expand access to many more folks so they could be online to help with that debugging. This a very different vision than any of the so called "electronic shopping marts" that permeate the current proposed visions for the future of the Net. Thus from the history will come a sense of what is the needed way forward and without considering the history, those involved in policy will be more likely to propose a backwards step. Ronda ronda@panix.com -------- ronda@panix.com or ae547@yfn.ysu.edu Norbert Wiener, the father of cybernetics, proposed that the governed have to find a way to get feedback to the governors But the process seems especially hard with regard to the policy planning that has been going on about the future of the Net. From don@dcez.com Tue Nov 15 13:30:40 1994 Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA01466 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 13:30:40 -0800 Received: from dcez.dcez.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQxqdt19649; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 13:22:47 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 13:19:05 -500 (EST) From: Don Evans Subject: Testing To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: don@dcez.com Why can't I get anything to post here?????? don@dcez.com From don@dcez.com Tue Nov 15 13:44:26 1994 Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA01691 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 13:44:26 -0800 Received: from dcez.dcez.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQxqdu09749; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 13:36:33 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 13:32:47 -500 (EST) From: Don Evans Subject: Re: [AVAIL:17] Key Issues of Affordability and Availability To: virtconf.ntia.doc.gov!avail@uunet.uu.net In-Reply-To: <9411151111.AA18658@slick.chage.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: don@dcez.com testing avail Don Evans National Endowment for the Arts don@dcez.com From rbarry@hopper.itc.virginia.edu Tue Nov 15 13:46:10 1994 Received: from virginia.edu (uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.7]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA01719 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 13:46:09 -0800 Received: from hopper.itc.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa26213; 15 Nov 94 13:38 EST Received: (from rbarry@localhost) by Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU (8.6.8/8.6.6) id NAA19929 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 13:38:16 -0500 From: Rey Barry Message-Id: <199411151838.NAA19929@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU> Subject: Re: [AVAIL:16] testing alt.ntia.avail To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 13:38:16 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <009877F6.09E3BD80.60@clp2.clpgh.org> from "Virginia Correa" at Nov 15, 94 11:50:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1009 > > Path: clpgh.org!correav > From: correav@clpgh.org (Virginia Correa) > Newsgroups: alt.ntia.avail > Subject: testing alt.ntia.avail > Message-ID: <1994Nov15.094430.2653@clp2> > Date: 15 Nov 94 09:44:30 -5 > Organization: Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh > News-Moderator: Approval required for posting to alt.ntia.avail > Lines: 8 > > Test msg. from correav to alt.ntia.avail > > -- > +++ Virginia Correa - Head, Automation Division > +++ The Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh > +++ 4400 Forbes Ave., Pittsburgh, PA 15213 > +++ correav@clpgh.org - 412-622-1945 > > +++ Virginia Correa - Head, Automation Division > +++ The Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh > +++ 4400 Forbes Ave., Pittsburgh, PA 15213 > +++ correav@clpgh.org - 412-622-1945 There are at least two of us alive, Virginia. -- rbarry@hopper.itc.virginia.edu Freeware Hall of Fame BBS The only thing Americans Hayes Optima 288 - 804-293-4710 have in common is paranoia. Free BBS - 1st call downloads From public4@efn.org Tue Nov 15 14:10:02 1994 Received: from skinner.cs.uoregon.edu (skinner.cs.uoregon.edu [128.223.4.13]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA02158 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 14:10:00 -0800 Received: from efn.org by skinner.cs.uoregon.edu with SMTP id AA06016 (5.65/IDA-1.4.2 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Tue, 15 Nov 94 10:58:38 -0800 Received: by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA21505; Tue, 15 Nov 94 10:56:26 PST Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 10:56:23 -0800 (PST) From: Public Terminal 4 To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Where's the discussion? In-Reply-To: <1994Nov15.002742.7646@virgin.uvi.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hellooooooo???? Is there a problem from the listserv? We haven't received any discussion since 14:40 yesterday. Penny From markwood@metolius.cocc.edu Tue Nov 15 15:28:01 1994 Received: from news.u.washington.edu (news.u.washington.edu [140.142.64.1]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA03419 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 15:28:00 -0800 Received: from metolius.cocc.edu by news.u.washington.edu (5.65/UW-NDC Revision: 2.22 ) id AA29496; Tue, 15 Nov 94 12:19:55 -0800 Received: from FirstClass (2400037) by metolius.cocc.edu (PostalUnion/SMTP 1.2) id AA2400037.429783; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 12:35:46 PDT Message-Id: <1994Nov15.113216.429783@metolius.cocc.edu> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov From: markwood@metolius.cocc.edu (Dick Markwood) Organization: Central Oregon Community College Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 11:32:16 PDT Subject: Re: [AVAIL:11] Re: subcribe wvia From ntiagate@virgin.uvi.edu Tue Nov 15 15:31:13 1994 Received: from virgin.uvi.edu (virgin.uvi.edu [146.226.200.110]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA03504 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 15:31:06 -0800 Received: from localhost (ntiagate@localhost) by virgin.uvi.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) id QAA22826 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 16:09:27 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 14:09:05 GMT From: ab147@virgin.uvi.edu (Gary M. Goodlander) Message-ID: <1994Nov15.140905.16422@virgin.uvi.edu> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Cheap Public Access I want to see cheap public access to the Internet, and other informational services. If this isn't something 'good' that government can do for the people relatively inexpensively... I don't know what is. Rich people can afford good home libraries, but poor kids can't. Many of those poor kids, however, either have access to a computer at school, elsewhere, or (perhaps) even a home. Let's make sure that the collective information of our society is availible (as much as possible) to everyone... rich or poor. Thanks for listening. PS. I live on a small boat anchored off a tiny island. To residents of the 'turd world', the internet is a wonderful resource... Gary, aka Cap'n Fattt >From news Tue Nov 15 10:14:47 1994 Received: from localhost (news@localhost) by virgin.uvi.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) id KAA16619 for alt-ntia-intellec@virgin; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 10:14:46 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 10:14:46 -0400 From: News User Message-Id: <199411151414.KAA16619@virgin.uvi.edu> To: alt-ntia-intellec@virgin.uvi.edu Status: RO X-Status: D From barcelom@ERE.UMontreal.CA Tue Nov 15 16:47:18 1994 Received: from condor.CC.UMontreal.CA (condor.CC.UMontreal.CA [132.204.2.103]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA05097 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 16:47:16 -0800 Received: from eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA by condor.CC.UMontreal.CA with SMTP id AA18132 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Tue, 15 Nov 1994 16:37:53 -0500 Received: from alize.ERE.UMontreal.CA by eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (940406.SGI/5.17) id AA21855; Tue, 15 Nov 94 16:37:52 -0500 Received: by alize.ERE.UMontreal.CA (940406.SGI/5.17) id AA13463; Tue, 15 Nov 94 16:37:51 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 16:37:50 -0500 (EST) From: Barcelo Alain-Michel Sender: Barcelo Alain-Michel Reply-To: Barcelo Alain-Michel Subject: Re: [AVAIL:17] Key Issues of Affordability and Availability To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Cc: Multiple recipients of list In-Reply-To: <9411151111.AA18658@slick.chage.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII One issue of affordability and availability which has not been raised yet is the question of trans-national or international use of, for example, the Internet. Since there is no multilateral organization to regulate rates between countries with public and/or private telecom companies, we could have people deprived of access to important information which would have been conceived especially for them, or without any tought given to their deprivation. -----------------barcelom@ERE.UMontreal.CA-------------------------- | | | Michel Barcelo | Institut d'urbanisme | | Professeur titulaire | Universite de Montreal | | | Faculte de l'amenagement | | Tel.:(1)(514) 343-6893 | C.P. 6128, Succ. "Centre-ville" | | Fax :(1)(514) 343-2338 | MONTREAL (Quebec) H3C 3J7 CANADA | -------------------------------------------------------------------- From BMSLIB@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Tue Nov 15 19:36:52 1994 Received: from mitvma.mit.edu (MITVMA.MIT.EDU [18.92.0.3]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA00164; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 19:36:51 -0800 Message-Id: <199411160336.TAA00164@virtconf.digex.net> Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7450; Tue, 15 Nov 94 18:04:30 EST Received: from MITVMA (NJE origin BMSLIB@MITVMA) by MITVMA.MIT.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6943; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 18:04:30 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 94 18:04:14 EST From: "W. Curtiss Priest" Subject: Introduction to LINCT for low cost availability To: NTIA Forum on Availability and Cost , NTIA discussion on Universal Service At the suggestion of my associate, Dr. Curtiss Priest, who has been forwarding to me many insightful messages from members of this list about the development of the NII and community networks, I'd like to share with you the following information about a recently formed coalition to help provide developing community networks with required assistance and software tools. I share this publication in the hope that some of you may give me some feedback and others interested in joining the coalition can get in touch with us. Thanks, Ken Komoski (email: komoski@BNLCL6.BNL.GOV) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ______________________________________________________________________________ LINCT (Learning and Information Network for Community Telecomputing) LINCT is a not-for-profit coalition of socially-concerned organizations -- working with affiliated businesses and local governments, libraries, schools, and social services-- to help communities achieve universal, equitable access to integrated, community -wide electronic information and learning services. LINCT does this by stimulating the growth of grassroots community telecomputing cooperatives, to which it provides strategic advice and technical assistance. In addition to helping communities integrate local services, LINCT helps communities to build low-cost, locally-managed "on-ramps" to the national information highway. Through the "BET Initiative" LINCT helps communities to recycle used business computers to poverty-level and low-income families and seniors who may earn them by learning how to use them through training provided by volunteer computer-literates at local community centers and/or libraries and schools. The first communities assisted by LINCT are five towns in Eastern Long Island, NY where LINCT is working closely with the library system, town governments, schools, and social services agencies within an integrated, systemic model. Other communities on Long Island, in New York City, and in upstate New York, and in seven other states are affiliated with LINCT in order to achieve the shared goal of low-cost, universal, equitable access to information and learning. LINCT's purposes: (1) help achieve low-cost, universal and equitable access to telecomputing for homes, schools, libraries, municipal and social service agencies, and community businesses; (2) promote lifelong learning and earning in all communities via cooperative telecomputing ; (3) keep the cost of telecomputing low through cooperative purchasing and licensing agreements with regional and national providers of network services, including the Internet; (4) create specific programs and databases that will help communities to achieve the above. An example of one such program is Businesses for Equity in Telecomputing (BET). BET helps communities to: (a) facilitate the recycling of used business computers to low-income families, by enabling them to earn them through their learning to use them to telecommunicate locally and nationwide; (b) develop cooperative training programs conducted by community volunteers, during which low-income families earn a home computer-and-modem by learning how to use a computer to become full participants in America's fast-changing information society. Other LINCT programs being developed include improving home-school-social agency communications, primary health and crime prevention, online homework mentoring, and the online operation of community-based "time-dollar" exchanges linked to at-home, work-related training. LINCT and its growing network of affiliated not-for-profit organizations are prepared to assist communities to develop local telecomputing cooperatives to bring the benefits of low-cost telecomputing to all community members. ________________________________________________________________________ LINCT % The Hamlet Green\ Hampton Bays, NY 11946 Tel: 516.728.9100 LINCT's Member Organizations The member organizations of the LINCT coalition are the Center for Information, Technology and Society (CITS), Melrose, Massachusetts; The Educational Products Information Exchange (EPIE) Institute, Hampton Bays, New York, and the Time Dollars Network, Washington, D.C. Each organization is making a significant, in-kind contribution in staff time assigned to LINCT as its match of Federal grant dollars. LINCT's affiliates: Science Linkages in the Community (SLIC), a national community-outreach program of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, as well as the LINCT-affiliated, communities (eight, in six states as of (9/1/94), including community libraries, local governments, schools, community colleges, human services, and local and regional businesses cooperating in the BET Initiatives. LINCT's leadership: Each of LINCT's three, founding organizations brings both expert staffing and information resources to this planning and development project that will contribute to its success: % Curtiss Priest, Director of CITS, is a systems analyst, economist, software designer, who has conducted policy, evaluation, technology-transfer, and cost- effectiveness studies of information technology for the Congressional Office of Technology Assessment (OTA), U.S.DoE, NASA, MIT, the American Association of Retired Persons (AARP), and EPIE Institute % Kenneth Komoski, LINCT's Administrative Director, has been consulting and writing on community telecomputing since 1986, and has directed the work of EPIE Institute for over two decades; under his leadership EPIE maintains the nation's only comprehensive, electronic databases of information on all types of electronic learning resources. % Edgar Cahn, founder of the Time Dollars Network, consults with community Time Dollar Exchanges operating in 30 U.S. states, Japan, and other countries. With LINCT, the Time Dollars Network will develop community-networkable software and training programs to facilitate the ability of members of low-income and minority communities to learn-and-earn the computers, modems and software needed to access the NII for job-training and work opportunities. LINCT's Program of Activities % TAP -- Technical Assistance and Planning support for local community telecomputing initiatives in need of help in designing, developing and delivering social and educational services with an emphasis on arriving at the most cost-effective system for a particular community. % BET -- Businesses for Equity in Telecomputing, enabling low-income families to earn a family computer -- plus computer training -- by earning "time dollars" for completing training at a community center in how to use telecomputing to improve family learning and earning power. Business-donated computers-plus- modems are currently being received from large and small businesses on Long Island, N.Y. where the BET Initiative is being piloted by LINCT (nationally, businesses currently own over 150 million computers, more than 15 million of which are replaced annually). LINCT envisions a nationwide, community-focused BET distribution system for donated computers to local community centers where low-income families will be trained in telecomputing, as a means of earning a home computer and modem. % LET -- Learning-for-Earning Training, providing any community member (but especially the unemployed) with the means to learn useful skills at home via telecomputing resources available via DIRECT (see below); % DIRECT -- Digital Information Resources for Education and Career Training, electronically accessible by learners (and/or parents and teachers) for the planning and the delivery of learning resources to homes and schools via community telecomputing cooperatives. % TACT -- Teachers Assisted by Community Telecomputing, assisting teachers to use community telecomputing to (a) communicate more efficiently and effectively with parents, (b) integrate student at-home computer learning with in-school learning, (c) access to information on teaching resources via DIRECT, (d) access to professional training via distance learning, (f) access to SELF (see below) to facilitate students' development as self-directed learners. % SELF -- Self-Exploration of Learning Frameworks, helping learners of all ages to use DIRECT to explore areas of learning in relation to school curricula or in response to personal interests and/or career development needs; % PPP -- Primary Prevention Programs, a means for assisting local health service agencies and local police to use telecomputing to maintain healthier and less violent communities; % CDA -- Community Development Activities,, such as online neighborhood organizations and projects, community planning forums, town meetings, school- business academies, library outreach, etc; % TDE -- Time Dollar Exchanges,; "dollars" that may be earned by any member of a community willing to help others by providing skilled or unskilled services ranging from babysitting to yardwork and from database development to computer trouble-shooting. Time-Dollar transactions will be arranged for, recorded, managed, and traded through a community managed Time-Dollar Exchange (reinforced by both LET and DIRECT, see above). For further information about LINCT contact: Kenneth Komoski Administrative Director LINCT % Suite 3 \The Hamlet Green\ Hampton Bays, NY 11946 Voice: (516) 728-9100 \ Fax (516) 728-9228\ email: KOMOSKI@BNLCL6.BNL.GOV ______________________________________________________________________________ From BMSLIB@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Tue Nov 15 19:36:52 1994 Received: from mitvma.mit.edu (MITVMA.MIT.EDU [18.92.0.3]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA00167; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 19:36:52 -0800 Message-Id: <199411160336.TAA00167@virtconf.digex.net> Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7465; Tue, 15 Nov 94 18:05:23 EST Received: from MITVMA (NJE origin BMSLIB@MITVMA) by MITVMA.MIT.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6973; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 18:05:21 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 94 18:05:07 EST From: "W. Curtiss Priest" Subject: Information about LINCT's BET program to get business help for networks To: NTIA Forum on Availability and Cost , NTIA discussion on Universal Service At the suggestion of my associate, Dr. Curtiss Priest, who has been forwarding to me many insightful messages from members of this list about the development of the NII and community networks, I'd like to share with you the following information about an iniative I have been discussing with the Whitehouse about a way to provide low cost networking for this country I share this publication in the hope that some of you may give me some feedback and others interested in encouraging others to support this initiative. Thanks, Ken Komoski (email: komoski@BNLCL6.BNL.GOV) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ______________________________________________________________________________ See the companion paper describing LINCT (Learning and Information Network for Community Telecomputing) LINCT's Associated Business Communities LINCT has initiated an outreach program to Long Island businesses in order to develop "LINCT's Associated Business Communities (ABCs)." Some business communities (e.g., telephone, cable, computer software) have obvious relevance to LINCT's activities, but LINCT's position is that all businesses can relate productively to community telecomputing -- if only through the benefits of low-cost E-mail service. But many, such as the banking and newspaper communities, see the benefits of having a community of telecomputing-using customers, who are more likely to use online banking and online news services. While ABCs are likely to become an ongoing source of fund- raising support for special needs and projects, LINCT's outreach to ABCs at present is primarily focused on a project designed to encourage businesses to donate used computers to low-income families in LINCT communities. This effort is called BET (Businesses for Equity in Telecomputing ). Its rationale: "It's a low stakes gamble for businesses to bet on the power of community telecomputing to stimulate and to develop the learning and earning power of low-income families in LINCT communities." This part of LINCT's program simply is encouraging businesses to place a no cost bet on in the form of used equipment for which they can get a modest tax credit (plus good public relations) via a tax-deductible contribution. (note: LINCT has proposed in discussion with members of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy that it arrange for a Presidential Commendation Certificate to be presented to every business on Long Island -- and in other regions where community telecomputing is developing -- whenever a business donates used computers for low-income family use. The hope is that LINCT can convince the White House to stimulate BET-like programs in other CPB- funded CWEIS projects.) Given the fact that there are an estimated 150 million microcomputers currently in use in America's businesses, and that, conservatively, about 10 percent of these are being displaced each year by more powerful machines, LINCT expects BET to pay off well for low-income families on Long Island, where there are many high-tech businesses. Initial discussions with a number of such businesses about BET are quite encouraging (see appendix for letters). FOR FURTHER INFORMATION ABOUT BET CONTACT: Kenneth Komoski Administrative Director LINCT % Suite 3 \The Hamlet Green\ Hampton Bays, NY 11946 Voice: (516) 728-9100 \ Fax (516) 728-9228\ email: KOMOSKI@BNLCL6.BNL.GOV ______________________________________________________________________________ From mcdonald@cais.com Tue Nov 15 19:49:23 1994 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA00725 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 19:49:22 -0800 Received: from [198.69.141.116] (mcdonald.cais.com [198.69.141.116]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id TAA20668; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 19:41:23 -0500 Message-Id: <199411160041.TAA20668@cais.cais.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 19:41:38 -0500 To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov From: mcdonald@cais.cais.com (Bill McDonald) Subject: Re: [AVAIL:21] Testing Cc: don@dcez.com >Why can't I get anything to post here?????? > >don@dcez.com You got this to post!!!! Bill McDonald mcdonald@cais.com From mnasstro@ednet1.osl.or.gov Tue Nov 15 19:57:30 1994 Received: from ednet1.osl.or.gov (ednet1.osl.or.gov [192.84.215.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA01632 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 19:57:29 -0800 Received: by ednet1.osl.or.gov id AA23385 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Tue, 15 Nov 1994 15:18:03 -0800 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 15:18:03 -0800 Message-Id: <199411152318.AA23385@ednet1.osl.or.gov> From: mnasstro@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Mark C. Nasstrom) To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: [AVAIL:18] Key Issues of Affordability and Availability Reply-To: mnasstro@ednet1.osl.or.gov Testing..Testing.... All Systems Go, on The Edge Of North America. This is a Test of the Oregon Coast Rural Information Service Cooperative. 1521 Hrs PST -- "Credible Deterrence Starts Here..." @ ---*> The Lumberyard BBS <*--- @ *> Hardwired On The Edge of North America @ YACHATS 503.547.4605 OREGON <* *******> Member Oregon Coast Rural Information Service Cooperative <******* From don@dcez.com Tue Nov 15 20:24:21 1994 Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA05334 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 20:24:19 -0800 Received: from dcez.dcez.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQxqev03423; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 20:16:22 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 20:12:09 -500 (EST) From: Don Evans Subject: Re: [AVAIL:23] Re: testing To: virtconf.ntia.doc.gov!avail@uunet.uu.net In-Reply-To: <199411151838.NAA19929@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: don@dcez.com Testing from DCEZ.COM...... From don@dcez.com Tue Nov 15 20:27:01 1994 Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA05777 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 20:27:00 -0800 Received: from dcez.dcez.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQxqev03797; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 20:19:06 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 20:14:54 -500 (EST) From: Don Evans Subject: Re: [AVAIL:21] Testing To: Bill McDonald cc: virtconf.ntia.doc.gov!avail@uunet.uu.net, dcez.com!don@uunet.uu.net In-Reply-To: <199411160041.TAA20668@cais.cais.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: don@dcez.com I am really confused about how this thing is working. I thought my post to avail@virtconf.ntia.doc would be send back to me, and I would see it show up in my email box, so how did it get to Bill McDonald? On Tue, 15 Nov 1994, Bill McDonald wrote: > >Why can't I get anything to post here?????? > > > >don@dcez.com > > You got this to post!!!! > > Bill McDonald mcdonald@cais.com > > >  From twigs@sils.umich.edu Tue Nov 15 20:42:07 1994 Received: from sils.umich.edu (sils.umich.edu [141.211.203.30]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA07878 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 20:42:06 -0800 Received: by sils.umich.edu (8.6.8/2.0) id UAA08504; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 20:36:05 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 20:36:05 -0500 (EST) From: "Cynthia S. Terwilliger" Subject: Re: [AVAIL:32] Re: Key Issues of Affordability and Availability To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov cc: Multiple recipients of list In-Reply-To: <199411152318.AA23385@ednet1.osl.or.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'l like to hear more from the Oregon edge of the world. Being from a small, rural library in the Upper Penisula of Michigan, with a very small tax base...faced with geographical isolation and no clout...how do we get our voices heard and assure our partrons equal and universal access to these new and wonderful services...we have no local nodes...every hook up is a long distance call. What are you doing over there? From rbarry@hopper.itc.virginia.edu Tue Nov 15 21:41:41 1994 Received: from virginia.edu (uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.7]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA15056 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 21:41:40 -0800 Received: from hopper.itc.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa20568; 15 Nov 94 18:28 EST Received: (from rbarry@localhost) by Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU (8.6.8/8.6.6) id SAA43939 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 18:28:16 -0500 From: Rey Barry Message-Id: <199411152328.SAA43939@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU> Subject: Re: [AVAIL:22] Re: Key Issues of Affordability and Availability To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 18:28:16 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Don Evans" at Nov 15, 94 05:52:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 382 > > testing avail > > Don Evans > National Endowment for the Arts > don@dcez.com > You are coming through. Shall I say hello to my friend Robert Garfias for you? -- rbarry@hopper.itc.virginia.edu Freeware Hall of Fame BBS The only thing Americans Hayes Optima 288 - 804-293-4710 have in common is paranoia. Free BBS - 1st call downloads From rbarry@hopper.itc.virginia.edu Tue Nov 15 21:41:42 1994 Received: from virginia.edu (uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.7]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA15062 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 21:41:42 -0800 Received: from hopper.itc.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa21186; 15 Nov 94 18:31 EST Received: (from rbarry@localhost) by Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU (8.6.8/8.6.6) id SAA43534 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 18:31:12 -0500 From: Rey Barry Message-Id: <199411152331.SAA43534@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU> Subject: Re: [AVAIL:24] Where's the discussion? To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 18:31:12 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Public Terminal 4" at Nov 15, 94 05:53:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 462 > > > Hellooooooo???? Is there a problem from the listserv? We haven't > received any discussion since 14:40 yesterday. Penny, we received nothing at all Monday and very little Tuesday here in Virginia. How much traffic did you see Monday? -- rbarry@hopper.itc.virginia.edu Freeware Hall of Fame BBS The only thing Americans Hayes Optima 288 - 804-293-4710 have in common is paranoia. Free BBS - 1st call downloads From hwh6k@fulton.seas.virginia.edu Tue Nov 15 22:12:34 1994 Received: from virginia.edu (uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.7]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA17211 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 22:12:33 -0800 Received: from fulton.seas.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa01582; 15 Nov 94 22:04 EST Received: (from hwh6k@localhost) by fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU (8.6.8/8.6.6) id WAA57037 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 22:04:37 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 22:04:37 -0500 From: Henry Huang Message-Id: <199411160304.WAA57037@fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91) To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: [AVAIL:1] NTIA Virtual Conference KeyNote Address Sorry if much of this stuff has been covered already ... I've been busy/sick as of late and haven't had othe chance to wade through all the messages from the various lists ... On Nov 14, 9:08, NTIA Virtual Conference wrote: > Through the NII, the Administration is focusing on the ability of > computer mediated communications to enhance the life and work of > every American. The NII is a harbinger of change, both economic > and political, and holds great promise for the future of America. The NII is NOT a harbringer of change ... the Internet WAS -- hence this conference (run using list server software on a UNIX box, and sent mostly over Internet links). This is further reflected in your next statement: > Some benefits of the NII include telecommuting, distance learning > and active life-long education, remote consultations with expert > medical professionals, as well as new forms of art, entertainment > and culture. All of this has been kicked around in one form or another on the Internet; the idea of videoconferencing (i.e. remote consultations) dates back at LEAST 20 years to some of the early demos at Xerox PARC (just saw a fascinating video on this in one of my classes today). All of these things CAN already be done in one form or another; if the NII turns out to be just a higher-bandwidth Internet, that's fine -- but that doesn't make it a "harbringer of change" in and of itself. I think the best way to think about the NII is to frame it in the scenario of past technologies, in both their successes and failures. We're sitting here talking about wiring up people's houses for the Net when an awful lot of people don't even have PHONE service. Also, merely providing access barely scratches the surface of what's required -- it's easy for us to fall into the trap of thinking that ALL people who have this will be instantly fascinated by it, and somehow have both the skill and motivation required to MASTER the new techology. Bringing technology that's both powerful and unusable does no one any good -- think of VCR programming (or setting the clock on a VCR, for that matter! =) 2 *BIG* problems with the Internet right now are the lack of a consistent, usable interface, and the TOTAL lack of people at individual sites who are willing to train and educate new users. Also, resources for newbies tend to be few, far between, and hard to find (i.e. you have to KNOW how/where to find the answer in order to get it -- thus totally defeating the purpose). USENET newsgroups such as news.announce.newusers attempt to alleviate the problem, but they're not the right answer -- the responsibility for this has to be assumed by the administrators at each site. Failing that, the responsibility rests on the rest of us who know to help educate others, in whatever way we can. The availability of such user training/education is crucial, because the consequences of NOT getting it right are insidious, serious -- and inevitable. Not making technology accessible -- both physically and mentally -- to those who have not experienced it ultimately affects societal attitudes toward technology. When people can't use E-mail, or can't figure out FTP, or Windows, or even their word processor, they don't think "oh, I can't use this because the interface SUCKS", it's usually more like "gee, everybody else is getting this; I must NOT BE GOOD WITH COMPUTERS or something". This is really more of a psychological consequence than anything else, but it's still valid. We already live in a world of technical "haves" and "have nots" -- both in technology AND in knowledge ("knows" and "knows nots"?) Understanding why the gap exists and the consequences of such a societal split is the FIRST step to understanding what needs to be addressed with the NII. Ultimately, it may even predict whether the NII succeeds or fails miserably (remember: a lot of people don't have PHONES, much less network service. The question is WHY?) > This conference is an experiment in a new form of dialog among > citizens and with their government. The conference is not a one- > way, top down approach, it is a conversation. It holds the > promise of reworking the compact between citizens and their > government. This is true only if both sides are listening to what the other has to say -- and are ultimately willing to ACT on it. If not, then whatever's said here will be for naught. Although I heartily support the idea of this conference, my gut suspicion tells me that an awful lot of this will be for naught, primarily because some of the key points under examination may ultimately be determined by other factors than what us users (and voters) think -- be it political, market- driven, social, whatever. In particular, although I support the ideal of free (or cheap -- like a newspaper) public access, I'm somewhat doubtful as to whether it's practical; hopefully when I have more time I'll be able to read some of these replies and find out. -H From marym@Finesse.COM Tue Nov 15 22:30:20 1994 Received: from thyme.finesse.com (thyme.finesse.com [140.174.171.1]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA18196 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 22:30:18 -0800 Received: by thyme.finesse.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA01799; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 19:19:26 +0800 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 19:19:26 +0800 From: marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris) Message-Id: <9411160319.AA01799@thyme.finesse.com> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: [AVAIL:34] Re: Testing X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII content-length: 811 Two things to be aware of here. Some listservs don't send a copy back to you. Secondarily, and relating to availability of service, someone has done a serious email spam today to aproximatly 950 Bitnet email lists. Since this type of traffic is about 3 times the email that the Internet handles in a day, many email things are very slow. I am still receiving email so I may not be caught up at this point, but here's my discussion/question. How do you manage availability when one person can destroy the infrastructure so easily? NII may be a vast resource, but it isn't unlimited. Mary > I am really confused about how this thing is working. I thought my post > to avail@virtconf.ntia.doc would be send back to me, and I would see it > show up in my email box, so how did it get to Bill McDonald? From silke001@maroon.tc.umn.edu Tue Nov 15 23:39:50 1994 Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA20697 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 23:39:50 -0800 Received: from dialup-4-30.gw.umn.edu by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 15 Nov 94 22:29:52 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 94 22:35:14 CST From: "Chris Silker" Message-Id: <90695.silke001@maroon.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_16 Reply-To: X-POPMail-Charset: English To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Info for Don Evans; Privacy conference query You can't read your own posts unless you send a command to the listserv to do so (assuming that this list is set up to do such things at all). If it can, you would send a message to "listserv@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov" (without the quotes) - body of the message reads "set avail repro". Nothing goes in the subject line. Is anyone signed onto the Privacy conferences, and if so, have you received anything from it yet? Forgive me if this is a simplistic question, but what are the possibilities of providing e-mail accounts to the interested who do not have the opportunity for access elsewhere (such as people who don't have phone service or can't spring for a private carrier) through the public library system? I have seen messages that indicate they are being sent from public libraries. Is this widespread? My branch librarian was just exclaiming that they recently got on the Net. C. Silker From msalo@garnet.acns.fsu.edu Wed Nov 16 00:18:00 1994 Received: from garnet.acns.fsu.edu (garnet.acns.fsu.edu [128.186.6.137]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA23168 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:18:00 -0800 Received: by garnet.acns.fsu.edu (5.65c/25-eef) id AA51553; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:10:08 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 23:42:34 +22311151 (EST) From: Marty Salo Subject: my question To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov In-Reply-To: <9411160319.AA01799@thyme.finesse.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII OK, as I see things, the cable companies want the NII to have 50,000 channels, the post office wants to get into the information provider bussiness with their kiosk idea, and some public libraries are having freenets which sort of compete with private enterprize building the NII, others are saying that to call it a NII itself is a falsehood, because it truly should be a GII. Now I think that if we are talking relatively short term, we might be talking about a multi-gigabit backbone, and maybe evven gigabit lines connecting cities with each other. The public libraries are basicly run by governments, which are competing with private enterprize. I'm a library student, hoping to get involved in net.training, and I think that the freenets are wonderful ideas, but at the same time, I believe that the Clinton Administration would rather not foot the bill for the network. So, I guess I'm wanting some sort of feedback as to how thw present administration feels about letting the libraries try to satisfy the public's desire to connect to the net. Will this be yet another example where government sides with business, and the library's role is diminished? Will we have 50,000 channels with all sorts of complex and expensive packaging of channels? Marty Salo + msalo@garnet.acns.fsu.edu + http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~msalo From sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Nov 16 00:41:20 1994 Received: from silver.ucs.indiana.edu (sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.10.6]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA27213 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:41:19 -0800 Message-Id: <199411160841.AAA27213@virtconf.digex.net> Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.65c+/10jsm) id AA06113; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:33:25 -0500 From: Sean Subject: Re: [AVAIL:41] my question To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:33:24 -0500 (EST) Cc: sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Sean) In-Reply-To: from "Marty Salo" at Nov 16, 94 00:19:05 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1984 If things go as it looks like they are going now, libraries will lose out to bussiness in the war for the net. Yes, this means that we will be drowning in a deluge of what big bussiness tells us we want to hear and the magic of the net will vanish in a poof of monied interests. Some estimates that I have read say that it should cost no more than $10 a year per user for universal access to the national network, including library sites so that those without phones or home computers have access. The NSF has decided against funding the internet anymore and all the talk of hard is about the privatizing of the net. No one seems to get the point involved (or, worse: They *do* get the point). The backbone of the net should be retained by the government. The cost is relatively inexpensive and the benefits are grand. Paying large fees (some plans call for charges based on the amount of data consumed and others by time spent net-surfing) defeats the nature of the net. We have possibilities for direct democracy. At the very least, for representation of mentally distinct groups as opposed to physical. That is, now we are represented in Congress by geographical area, not what our opinions support. Further, money can be *gained* from bussiness by charging them to advertise on the net while allowing free public use. The large customer base will attract the bussiness money and cover for the rest of us and then some. Bussiness may complain that they are taking on more than their burden, but they will also reap financial benefits that will cover the price of admission. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------~ | Sean Connelly "Cyberpunk is a revolution | | sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu that has already become | | sconnell@acoma.ucs.indiana.edu the establishment." | | sleeze@well.sf.ca.us --Someone with a clue | ---------------------------------------------------------------~~ From rbarry@hopper.itc.virginia.edu Wed Nov 16 00:48:28 1994 Received: from virginia.edu (uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.7]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA27819 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:48:28 -0800 Received: from hopper.itc.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa25600; 16 Nov 94 0:40 EST Received: (from rbarry@localhost) by Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU (8.6.8/8.6.6) id AAA29559 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:40:37 -0500 From: Rey Barry Message-Id: <199411160540.AAA29559@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU> Subject: Re: [AVAIL:42] Re: my question To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:40:37 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199411160841.AAA27213@virtconf.digex.net> from "Sean" at Nov 16, 94 00:41:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 756 > area, not what our opinions support. Further, money can be *gained* > from bussiness by charging them to advertise on the net while > allowing free public use. The large customer base will attract You're overlooking that we pay every cent back to business they spend advertising, plus profit. All costs are passed along to the final consumer. It's the basic flaw in the argument that commercial TV is "free." It's anything but. Sorry for the e-mail reply, but our newsgroups are totally empty. I'm only seeing forums via e-mail. -- rbarry@hopper.itc.virginia.edu Freeware Hall of Fame BBS The only thing Americans Hayes Optima 288 - 804-293-4710 have in common is paranoia. Free BBS - 1st call downloads From debut@MO.NET Wed Nov 16 01:00:00 1994 Received: from Walden.MO.NET (walden.mo.net [199.250.196.5]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA00675 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:59:57 -0800 From: debut@MO.NET Received: from localhost (debut@localhost) by Walden.MO.NET (8.6.5/8.6.9) id XAA09421; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 23:54:02 -0600 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 23:54:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [AVAIL:42] Re: my question To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov cc: Multiple recipients of list In-Reply-To: <199411160841.AAA27213@virtconf.digex.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 16 Nov 1994, Sean wrote: > If things go as it looks like they are going now, libraries will > lose out to bussiness in the war for the net. Yes, this means > that we will be drowning in a deluge of what big bussiness tells > us we want to hear and the magic of the net will vanish in a poof > of monied interests. Some estimates that I have read say that it > involved (or, worse: They *do* get the point). The backbone of > the net should be retained by the government. The cost is relatively > inexpensive and the benefits are grand. Paying large fees (some > plans call for charges based on the amount of data consumed and > others by time spent net-surfing) defeats the nature of the net. > We have possibilities for direct democracy. At the very least, > for representation of mentally distinct groups as opposed to > physical. That is, now we are represented in Congress by geographical > area, not what our opinions support. Further, money can be *gained* > from bussiness by charging them to advertise on the net while > allowing free public use. The large customer base will attract > the bussiness money and cover for the rest of us and then some. > Bussiness may complain that they are taking on more than their > burden, but they will also reap financial benefits that will cover > the price of admission. > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------~ > | Sean Connelly "Cyberpunk is a revolution | > | sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu that has already become | > | sconnell@acoma.ucs.indiana.edu the establishment." | > | sleeze@well.sf.ca.us --Someone with a clue | > ---------------------------------------------------------------~~ > I agree completely. However I want to take a more naive track and believe that there are businesses who's interest it is to maintain the library freenets and offer connections into the NII or GII or whatever it may be. Consider our situation here in St. Louis. We are finally getting on line here, adn have a rapidly growing local providre into the internet. At some point it will be economically feasible for them to maintain library connections at little cost. We all know that at the very least the national backbone is installed, and I suppose paid for. If we shrink this analogy, we might see growing companies with growing resources extending them in ways that are like the above situation here in St. Louis. Wys which are essentially not impacting the cost effectiveness of there installed base but providing a needed service none the less. Dave From sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Nov 16 01:08:45 1994 Received: from silver.ucs.indiana.edu (sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.10.6]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA02437 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:08:45 -0800 Message-Id: <199411160908.BAA02437@virtconf.digex.net> Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.65c+/10jsm) id AA09019; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:00:31 -0500 From: Sean Subject: Re: [AVAIL:43] Re: my question...and more To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:00:30 -0500 (EST) Cc: sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Sean) In-Reply-To: <199411160540.AAA29559@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU> from "Rey Barry" at Nov 16, 94 00:49:41 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1248 > You're overlooking that we pay every cent back to business they spend > advertising, plus profit. All costs are passed along to the final > consumer. It's the basic flaw in the argument that commercial TV is > "free." It's anything but. But the cost is only one that those who *chose* to have to pay. The notion of communication *should* be shifting toward a new form of television and, by the definition, advertising. The price for those advertising should not exceed that of current rates. In fact, bussinesses that I am talking with currently think that passive advertising will be much more effective than current, one-way, methods. It is much simpler for consumers to seek business than the other way around. The only advertisers that would lose out would be the ginsu knife folks and the like. Things that are *far* from necessary. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------~ | Sean Connelly "Cyberpunk is a revolution | | sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu that has already become | | sconnell@acoma.ucs.indiana.edu the establishment." | | sleeze@well.sf.ca.us --Someone with a clue | ---------------------------------------------------------------~~ From rbarry@hopper.itc.virginia.edu Wed Nov 16 01:28:09 1994 Received: from virginia.edu (uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.7]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA04140 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:28:09 -0800 Received: from hopper.itc.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa29823; 16 Nov 94 1:20 EST Received: (from rbarry@localhost) by Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU (8.6.8/8.6.6) id BAA03564 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:19:36 -0500 From: Rey Barry Message-Id: <199411160619.BAA03564@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU> Subject: Re: [AVAIL:45] Re: my question...and more To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:19:26 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199411160908.BAA02437@virtconf.digex.net> from "Sean" at Nov 16, 94 01:10:43 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1093 > > advertising, plus profit. All costs are passed along to the final > > consumer. It's the basic flaw in the argument that commercial TV is > > "free." It's anything but. > > But the cost is only one that those who *chose* to have to pay. The The only way to avoid paying is to go without. Go without phone service because all the LD providers pump their advertising cost on to us. Go on foot or by horseback, because the auto makers pass their costs back. And so forth for every product we use in life. Hell, the electric monopoly is allowed to advertise and charge it off to us here in Virginia. As I see that, the idea that we have a choice to pay or not evaporates when it crosses the line from theory to reality. Virtually everything we eat and every store we buy it in passes on the advertising cost to the shopper. When it unavoidable, where's the choice? -- rbarry@hopper.itc.virginia.edu Freeware Hall of Fame BBS The only thing Americans Hayes Optima 288 - 804-293-4710 have in common is paranoia. Free BBS - 1st call downloads From sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Nov 16 01:48:45 1994 Received: from silver.ucs.indiana.edu (sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.10.6]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA07580 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:48:43 -0800 Message-Id: <199411160948.BAA07580@virtconf.digex.net> Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.65c+/10jsm) id AA12579; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:40:50 -0500 From: Sean Subject: Re: [AVAIL:46] Re: my question...and more To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:40:50 -0500 (EST) Cc: sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Sean) In-Reply-To: <199411160619.BAA03564@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU> from "Rey Barry" at Nov 16, 94 01:28:48 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2163 Sorry if I was vague or misleading, but didn't the rest of my posting address the fact that advertising costs will go down anyway? Its pretty basic stuff, really. Advertising by modern methods is not an effective way for many producers to reach their target audience. The only folks who benefit from mass media ads are beer companies, cars and the like. Most are paying a premium to reach a large audience which contains relatively few consumers for their particulare good. Without delivering an entire paper on the topic, let me try to paint a picture for you. Are you familiar with the WWW and Mosaic? Imagine that your company is selling a niche product. You set up a web-page-- a relatively inexpensive thing to do in terms of advertising-- and consumers have 24 hour access to your information. Most of us are looking for bargains, toys, new things. We will seek it out. Currently, there are folks doing just this. Their traffic increases exponentially (web pages can count the number of people who access them). If you are an established producer, one your web page is known, new products will not have the lag time in reaching a mass audience (as with the first days of your page.) One site, many products. Just like a shop that people can access from around the globe. Cheap? Hell yes! Will this drive up the cost of goods? A little basic economic/telecommunications background is here assumed. I will support with more if this is not clear. Do companies have an interest in seeing us all happy and net-accessible? Silly question. Advertising cost is already in our products. This delivery system decreases said costs and expands one's ability to use cost-effective advertising. Sorry if I rambling, but this is my life, so to speak. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------~ | Sean Connelly "Cyberpunk is a revolution | | sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu that has already become | | sconnell@acoma.ucs.indiana.edu the establishment." | | sleeze@well.sf.ca.us --Someone with a clue | ---------------------------------------------------------------~~ From sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Nov 16 01:57:23 1994 Received: from silver.ucs.indiana.edu (sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.10.6]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA08284 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:57:21 -0800 Message-Id: <199411160957.BAA08284@virtconf.digex.net> Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.65c+/10jsm) id AA13233; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:49:28 -0500 From: Sean Subject: Re: [AVAIL:46] Re: my question...and more To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:49:28 -0500 (EST) Cc: sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Sean) In-Reply-To: <199411160619.BAA03564@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU> from "Rey Barry" at Nov 16, 94 01:28:48 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 697 By the by, I don't know if this is unclear or not, but I am not suggesting that bussiness carry the entire balance of the net. Rather, that public access should be guaranteed and that anyone using the net for profit should have to pay for the right. Is anyone in disagreement with this basic premise? -- ---------------------------------------------------------------~ | Sean Connelly "Cyberpunk is a revolution | | sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu that has already become | | sconnell@acoma.ucs.indiana.edu the establishment." | | sleeze@well.sf.ca.us --Someone with a clue | ---------------------------------------------------------------~~ From ext23!RUSSELLB@ext23.oes.orst.edu Wed Nov 16 03:14:04 1994 Received: from OES.ORST.EDU (OES.ORST.EDU [128.193.124.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA13789 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 03:14:03 -0800 Received: from ext23.UUCP by OES.ORST.EDU with UUCP id AA28208 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3); Wed, 16 Nov 94 00:04:09 -0800 Received: by ext23.OES.ORST.EDU (UUPC/extended 1.11q); Tue, 15 Nov 1994 23:37:23 pst From: RUSSELLB@ext23.oes.orst.edu Message-Id: <2ec9b6b4.ext23@ext23.OES.ORST.EDU> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: 15 Nov 94 23:37:22 Subject: Re: [AVAIL:20] Re: Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). > I have a paper I have written recently about the development of > the Global Network -- looking at its history and development. > > I would like to post it to this discussion but it is lengthy > so want to know if that is ok. > I would suggest that you post instructions for obtaining it via ftp and gopher and an offer to return it by e-mail for those who do neither. This way (the Internet way) the recipient decides whether to receive a lengthy document. Opinion of Bill Russell =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bandon Public Library -- Access to the Virtual Conference Via: Internet: russellb@ext23.oes.orst.edu Long Distance Tolls Paid by the City of Bandon Internet Access courtesy of Oregon State University and William P. (Bill) Russell vox: 503-347-3683 fax: 503-347-6303 snail mail: P.O.Box 2029 Bandon, OR 97411 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From ext23!RUSSELLB@ext23.oes.orst.edu Wed Nov 16 03:14:09 1994 Received: from OES.ORST.EDU (OES.ORST.EDU [128.193.124.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA13810 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 03:14:07 -0800 Received: from ext23.UUCP by OES.ORST.EDU with UUCP id AA28212 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3); Wed, 16 Nov 94 00:04:10 -0800 Received: by ext23.OES.ORST.EDU (UUPC/extended 1.11q); Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:50:49 pst virtconf.ntia.doc.gov!avail From: RUSSELLB@ext23.oes.orst.edu Message-Id: <2ec9c7e9.ext23@ext23.OES.ORST.EDU> To: "Cynthia S. Terwilliger" , avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: 16 Nov 94 00:50:48 Subject: Re: [AVAIL:35] Re: Key Issues of Affordability and Availabi Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Hi Cynthia, Here is an echo from the Oregon edge of the States, if not the world. We have a small rural library here on the south coast too, I'm the City Council liaison to the Library Board. > I'l like to hear more from the Oregon edge of the world. Being from a > small, rural library in the Upper Penisula of Michigan, with a very small > tax base...faced with geographical isolation and no clout...how do we get > our voices heard and assure our partrons equal and universal access to > these new and wonderful services...we have no local nodes...every hook up > is a long distance call. What are you doing over there? > The problems sound very familiar. The short answer is that in the near term neither we nor you can "assure our patrons equal and universal access." That can be our goal for the long run, but we must also face the short run and work to assure them at least the crumbs from the table to start with. There have been some very good posts about recycling computers for community networks. DuPriest's post about the BET program is among the best sounding to me. In our situation, we do not have many big industries very close to inherit cast-offs from, so beg wherever it seems wise. You don't need a Pentium to access a community BBS, nor to host one for that matter. An XT is fine for access and an AT will host a very adequate board for up to 8 phone lines. Speaking of a BBS, it is not the kind of node we would like to have, it will not assure equal access; but through fidonet it will provide a first step, e-mail access to the world. More importantly, it will provide a "place" where the community can discuss what they need and how to get it. The Oregon PUC has a procedure by which a town can call upon the PUC to find that there is a "community of interest," with a near by larger town or city. If found, the telco is required to provide "Extended Area Service." For a small monthly fee, EAS provides local calling charges between the two towns. Bandon has only 3500 phones in our local calling area; we have a petition out to get EAS to Coos Bay, 15,000 phones. More economically viable units are thus created; another town our size already has EAS to Coos Bay, so over 20,000 phones will be capable of local (read free) phone access to the future Internet node. Let me be clear! I'm not asking for free access to the Internet, just EQUAL phone charges. The opinions of Bill Russell =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bandon Public Library -- Access to the Virtual Conference Via: Internet: russellb@ext23.oes.orst.edu Long Distance Tolls Paid by the City of Bandon Internet Access courtesy of Oregon State University and William P. (Bill) Russell vox: 503-347-3683 fax: 503-347-6303 snail mail: P.O.Box 2029 Bandon, OR 97411 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov Wed Nov 16 08:26:55 1994 Received: from ednet1.osl.or.gov (ednet1.osl.or.gov [192.84.215.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA07118 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 08:26:54 -0800 Received: by ednet1.osl.or.gov id AA03470 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Wed, 16 Nov 1994 05:19:12 -0800 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 05:19:12 -0800 Message-Id: <199411161319.AA03470@ednet1.osl.or.gov> From: cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Conrad Weiler) To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: avail Reply-To: cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov (This is a statement concerning a recent meeting in Oregon concerning statewide electronic networks. I think it mirrors some aspects of the larger national problem.) I attended the Telecom 101 Net I broadcast (Nov. 1) at Newport, Oregon. Net I allows one-way TV, two-way audio. The state-wide telecast focused on electronic communications in OregonUs future and many cities were represented (Astoria, Burns, Deadwood, Eugene, Newport, etc.). Representatives from Cable TV, Telephone, Oregon Schools, OregonUs regulatory agencies, and others presented their ideas about OregonUs telecommunications future. Questions such as who would pay or who would have access were mentioned several times. Particularly stressed was the need for inclusion of the rural Oregon areas in the telecommunications mix. One of the more interesting questions concerned use of Internet and whether classes could/would be offered to help new people use the system. John Sechrest, from OSU outreach program, responded that such classes already existed (and perhaps more would be forthcoming). I question this approach. It plays into the *school* game of *teach-me*. IUm not sure how successfully one can be *taught* to use the Internet. The Internet is more of an *immersion* process - painful at first - better as you become more accustomed to its vagaries. My guess is that regardless of how many *classes* or *books* that one studies about the Internet - the best *learning* situation is to DO IT! Another thought - rather then saying "how can I learn to use the Internet?", the better approach might be "what do you want to use the Internet for?" The latter question might better focus a person's desire to learn. Perhaps when MOSAIC (or its later GUI incantations) becomes widely available, the graphical interface with Internet connections will make the learning curve easier for more people. Also, we may be putting the cart before the horse again. Setting hardware in position (state-wide telecommunications, national information highway) before deciding software issues (what do we want to provide over the telecommunications system?). Right now you hear mostly glowing generalities. More disturbing at the Telecom 101 Oregon meeting was one of the site handouts. The single page paper, titled *Oregon Benchmarks*, gave figures from a 1993 report to the Oregon Legislature. Item 58. reports on the past and future of percentage of Oregon households with personal computers at home who send and receive data and information over telecommunications lines. An explanation on this handout stated: *This measures the number of households with computers and modems (which connect a computer to the phone system). Rationale: As the costs of manipulating and transmitting data declines, more and more households will benefit from access to data bases, electronic mail and other electronic services. The more people who connect into these services, the more data bases and opportunities for communications will emerge. A telecommunications task force recently concluded that accelerating this process will increase productivity and benefit Oregonians. Data source: Oregon Values Study conducted for the Oregon Business Council. The following years were listed (for households connected): 1992 - 10 per cent 1995 - 20 per cent 2000 - 50 per cent 2010 - 75 per cent These percentage changes (forecasts) probably look good until you think about the people involved. In the year 2010 there will be over 4 million Oregonians. Yet the forecast predicts 25 per cent of them will *not* be connected households. That means that over 1 million people will be relegated to second class *information poor* status. Like figures probably exist for the other 49 states. One suggestion often expressed is to make sure that all people have access to the information superhighway. What about having terminals provided in schools, public libraries, etc.? I prefer the idea of being able to "fiddle" at home. That's another reason why having access at schools and libraries to computers/Internet/etc. may not be the best answer. I'm pessimistic enough to think we will always have an information underclass. CW -- Conrad Weiler, Tidewater, Oregon cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov "If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." ---Bertrand Russell--- From cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov Wed Nov 16 08:51:01 1994 Received: from ednet1.osl.or.gov (ednet1.osl.or.gov [192.84.215.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA08843 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 08:51:00 -0800 Received: by ednet1.osl.or.gov id AA07474 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Wed, 16 Nov 1994 05:43:17 -0800 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 05:43:17 -0800 Message-Id: <199411161343.AA07474@ednet1.osl.or.gov> From: cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Conrad Weiler) To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: [AVAIL:28] Re: Key Issues of Affordability and Availability Reply-To: cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov There already is international use of Internet facilities. Those who choose to participate can use contacts worldwide. More recently there has been growing discussion of GII (global information infrastructure) rather then only NII (national concerns for information). We are living in a smaller global village every day. -- Conrad Weiler, Tidewater, Oregon cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov "If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." ---Bertrand Russell--- From cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov Wed Nov 16 09:04:54 1994 Received: from ednet1.osl.or.gov (ednet1.osl.or.gov [192.84.215.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA09912 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:04:53 -0800 Received: by ednet1.osl.or.gov id AA10962 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Wed, 16 Nov 1994 05:57:10 -0800 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 05:57:10 -0800 Message-Id: <199411161357.AA10962@ednet1.osl.or.gov> From: cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Conrad Weiler) To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: [AVAIL:35] Re: Key Issues of Affordability and Availability Reply-To: cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov I am rather new to the Oregon scene but here is what I have found so far. The state has many rural and somewhat isolated areas. There are a few large cities (Portland, Eugene-Springfield) but there are many rural counties. To help with information transfer Net I, Net II, and Net III sites are in place. Net I allows 1-way TV, 2-way audio transmissions. I believe there are about 35 statewide sites operating. Net II allows 2-way TV/audio transmission. Net III includes Ed Net COMPASS which gives people around the state access to each other and the Internet. Some folks pay long distance charges - some are using local lines. It just depends where you live. There are regional conferences scheduled in early December and a statewide conference set for January, 1995 to discuss directions to go with telecommunications in Oregon. Conrad -- Conrad Weiler, Tidewater, Oregon cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov "If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." ---Bertrand Russell--- From don@dcez.com Wed Nov 16 09:06:12 1994 Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA10084 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:06:11 -0800 Received: from dcez.dcez.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQxqgt05379; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 08:58:12 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 08:53:49 -500 (EST) From: Don Evans Subject: Testing. To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: don@dcez.com Testing don@dcez.com From don@dcez.com Wed Nov 16 09:33:40 1994 Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA11972 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:33:33 -0800 Received: from dcez.dcez.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQxqgv09543; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:25:34 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:21:12 -500 (EST) From: Don Evans Subject: Thanks Al.... To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: don@dcez.com Has anyone stopped to think just how much we owe to Al Gore and the current administration. In 1989, then Senator Gore introduced NREN Legislation, setting the stage for the environment in which we now find ourselves. Donald F. Evans Washington, DC don@dcez.com The views expressed are my own, and in no way should be considered as the views of the National Endowment for the Arts. From woody@cni.org Wed Nov 16 09:37:14 1994 Received: from a.cni.org (A.CNI.ORG [192.100.21.1]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA12257 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:37:14 -0800 Received: by a.cni.org id ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:28:51 -0500 From: Forest W Horton Message-Id: <9411161428.AA00455@a.cni.org> Subject: Re: [AVAIL:52] Re: GII vs. NII To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:28:51 -0500 (EST) Cc: lis-fid@a In-Reply-To: <199411161343.AA07474@ednet1.osl.or.gov> from "Conrad Weiler" at Nov 16, 94 08:52:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1145 > > > > There already is international use of Internet facilities. Those > who choose to participate can use contacts worldwide. > > More recently there has been growing discussion of GII (global > information infrastructure) rather then only NII (national > concerns for information). We are living in a smaller global > village every day. > > -- > Conrad Weiler, Tidewater, Oregon > cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov > "If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." > ---Bertrand Russell--- > Those conference participants interested in tracking the Global Information Infrastructures (GII) aspects of developments may be interested in knowing that the International Federation for Information and Documentation (FID) has set up a Task Force under the co-chairmanship of Dean Toni Carbo Bearman of the Graduate School of Library and Information Science at the University of Pittsburgh (and who serves on the Vice President's NIIAC Advisory Committee) can contact me for further information re FID's activities in this area. Woody Horton, Washington, D.C. woody@cni.org From epin@access.digex.net Wed Nov 16 09:57:33 1994 Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [164.109.10.5]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA13839 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:57:33 -0800 Received: by access2.digex.net id AA12723 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:49:41 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:49:40 -0500 (EST) From: James McDonough To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: [AVAIL:42] Re: my question In-Reply-To: <199411160841.AAA27213@virtconf.digex.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I want to add my voice to those favoring greater, not less, government intervention in the development of the NII (or GII) to protect the interest of the people against the narrow sectarian interests of large telecommunications industries. Why the federal government gave up it part ownership in the Internet backbone is a mystery to me. An active, interventionist government is essential to assure universal access at affordable prices from people living in heart of the cities or in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. James McDonough Bethesda, MD From redefus@winslo.ohio.gov Wed Nov 16 10:02:43 1994 Received: from winslo.ohio.gov (winslo.ohio.gov [156.63.68.251]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA14443 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 10:02:42 -0800 Received: (from redefus@localhost) by winslo.ohio.gov (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA06557; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:52:00 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:51:59 -0500 (EST) From: Redefining Univ Service REDEFUS Open access Subject: Re: [AVAIL:38] Re: NTIA Virtual Conference KeyNote Address To: Henry Huang cc: Multiple recipients of list In-Reply-To: <199411160304.WAA57037@fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII my question deals with actual competition in the local loop. what do you or does anybody have knowledge of actual competition not just petitioning to offer the service From FBSS@cbs.nl Wed Nov 16 10:53:16 1994 Received: from extcom5.cbs.nl (extcom5.cbs.nl [192.87.118.5]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA20200 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 10:52:41 -0800 From: FBSS@cbs.nl Received: from extcom3.cbs.nl by extcom5.cbs.nl (5.65/1.34) id AA27458; Wed, 16 Nov 94 16:44:48 +0100 Received: via extcom3.cbs.nl; Wed, 16 Nov 94 16:43:21 +0100 X-To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Received: via mailslh2.cbs.nl; Wed, 16 Nov 94 16:39:05 +0100 Received: via mailslh2.cbs.nl; Wed, 16 Nov 94 16:38:04 +0100 Received: via fddiha.cbs.nl; Wed, 16 Nov 94 16:46:04 +0100 Received: From BBH-1/WORKQUEUE1 by CHARON_H2.CBS.NL To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov X-Cbs-Space: Yes Comment: "" Date: 16 Nov 1994 16:35:56 MET Subject: Availability of statistics Reply-To: FBSS@cbs.nl Message-Id: <81430000.00000000006A.FBSS.Z9H374IJ> X-Smtpx-Version: 5.00 X-Mailer: Post v5.00 After attending the Virtual Conference for two days now, I would like to give my first attribution to the discussion. Since I work for the governement of The Netherlands, at the Central Bureau of Statistics, which is part of the Department of Economic Affairs, the question of availability of statistical figures intrigues me. As a result of safety-precautions there is no on-line connection possible with our network. There should, however, be a source for the public to get our data from, we get paid by community-money so the community should benefit the results of our efforts. I am wondering how these matters are regulated in the other countries who participate in the Virtual Conference With kind greetings, Frank D.Bastiaans, Statistical Analyser, Division Trade, Service and Transport, Sector Trade and Transport, Taskforce Wholesale-trade and Transport E-mail: FBSS@CBS.NL From martin@umbsky.cc.umb.edu Wed Nov 16 11:52:51 1994 Received: from gemini.cc.umb.edu (gemini.cc.umb.edu [158.121.2.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA25342 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:52:50 -0800 Received: by umbsky.cc.umb.edu (MX V4.1 VAX) id 6; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:45:06 EDT Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:45:05 EDT From: "ANTHONY M. MARTIN" To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov CC: martin@umbsky.cc.umb.edu Message-ID: <009878CF.F6D77B20.6@umbsky.cc.umb.edu> unsubscribe Anthony Martin From schaefer@access.digex.net Wed Nov 16 11:58:59 1994 Received: from access1.digex.net (access1.digex.net [164.109.10.3]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA26101 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:58:58 -0800 Received: by access1.digex.net id AA22513 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:51:04 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:51:04 -0500 (EST) From: Tom Schaefer To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: [AVAIL:60] In-Reply-To: <009878CF.F6D77B20.6@umbsky.cc.umb.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII You need to send this command to the list server at: listserv@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov The address you sent to is for posting messages... On Wed, 16 Nov 1994, ANTHONY M. MARTIN wrote: > unsubscribe Anthony Martin > > From LucyCo@aol.com Wed Nov 16 12:42:39 1994 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA00698 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 12:42:39 -0800 From: LucyCo@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA24023; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 12:34:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 12:34:19 -0500 Message-Id: <941116122334_662824@aol.com> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Library e-mail In Avail #40 Chris Silker asked about libraries providing free e-mail/net access. Seattle Public Library provides limited net access on its own -- but, more significantly, said "yes" to a collaborative project with the local Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility group. The CPSR/Seattle Community Network project enables the whole populace to have free internet e-mail, if desired -- through dial-in, or at terminals at any of the 22 main and branch libraries, or even from a telnet jump from far-flung libraries in the greater King County system. Registered users (you only have to sign up with your real name -- there are no other registration requirements) have free e-mail accounts and can post to local network forums. Lucy Copass, Seattle League of Women Voters Computer Communications Chair (lucyco@scn.org) From msyssft!msyssft!microsys!susang@uu6.psi.com Wed Nov 16 13:32:25 1994 Received: from uu6.psi.com (uu6.psi.com [38.145.155.3]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA06467 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:32:21 -0800 Received: from msyssft.UUCP by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA24611 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 94 12:57:28 -0500 From: msyssft!microsys!susang@uu6.psi.com Date: 16-Nov-94 11:35 Received: by msyssft (UUCP-MHS-XtcN) Wed Nov 16 11:36:29 1994 To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov ( Multiple recipients of list ), maroon.tc.umn.edu!silke001@uu6.psi.com ( "Chris Silker" ) Message-Id: E0E6C92E01B361E1 In-Reply-To: EBCCC92E81B361E1 Importance: Normal Encoding: 40 TEXT 1. Thank you for the tip on seeing your own postings. 2. No, I haven't seen anything AT ALL from the PRIVACY discussion (not even a message from the LISTSERV) 3. I agree (and yes, we both may be being simplistic, but that doesn't make it a bad idea) -- the public library is definitely a good place to start for public access. It isn't the only solution, but there is rarely just one good answer to a complex problem. Rather multiple good answers. Where it starts to get messy is (again) trying to figure out how to fund and manage public/universal access in whatever form. ************************************************** Susan J. Getgood Manager, Marketing & Communications Microsystems Software Inc. 600 Worcester Rd., Framingham, MA 01701 tel: 508/ 879-9000 or 800/489-2001; fax: 508/ 626-8515 e-mail: susang@microsys.com ------------- Original Text >From silke001 @ UUCP ( "Chris Silker" ) { uupsi6!maroon.tc.umn.edu!silke001 }, on 11/15/94 10:40 PM: You can't read your own posts unless you send a command to the listserv to do so (assuming that this list is set up to do such things at all). If it can, you would send a message to "listserv@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov" (without the quotes) - body of the message reads "set avail repro". Nothing goes in the subject line. Is anyone signed onto the Privacy conferences, and if so, have you received anything from it yet? Forgive me if this is a simplistic question, but what are the possibilities of providing e-mail accounts to the interested who do not have the opportunity for access elsewhere (such as people who don't have phone service or can't spring for a private carrier) through the public library system? I have seen messages that indicate they are being sent from public libraries. Is this widespread? My branch librarian was just exclaiming that they recently got on the Net. C. Silker From BMSLIB@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Wed Nov 16 13:39:27 1994 Received: from mitvma.mit.edu (MITVMA.MIT.EDU [18.92.0.3]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA07864; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:39:26 -0800 Message-Id: <199411162139.NAA07864@virtconf.digex.net> Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8083; Wed, 16 Nov 94 13:31:21 EST Received: from MITVMA (NJE origin BMSLIB@MITVMA) by MITVMA.MIT.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4695; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:31:21 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 94 13:11:03 EST From: "W. Curtiss Priest" Subject: Who does this Administration Really Listen To? To: NTIA discussion on Universal Service , NTIA Forum on Availability and Cost , NTIA discussion on Intellectual Property , Telecommunications Policy Roundtable - NE A disturbing article appeared in the San Jose Mercury News on October 20, 1994. It describes the opinions of the National Information Infrastructure Advisory Council. This council was appointed by President Clinton early this year and charged with providing the administration with advice about how to deal with the growing information highway! The council is co-chaired by Silicon Graphics chief executive Edward R. McCracken and Delano E. Lewis, president of National Public Radio. The statements regarding accessibility and universal service were particularly disturbing -- the group doesn't see homes involved at all, but a reliance on libraries, schools and community places to let most Americans gain access to the highway on into the next century. "Libraries, schools and community centers are the most likely places that poor and rural Americans will have to go to tap into the much-vaunted information highway, at least until the next century, according to draft documents being discussed by a presidential advisory council." "Left unanswered, however, is the question of who will pay for the equipment, wiring and service to those instutitions in an era when budget cuts and tax revolts have closed or severely restricted hourss at local libraries and gutted school district finances." "'We're seeing libraries may be that community access point, that you don't have to have the hardware in your home,' said Delano E. Lewis, co-chairman of the [council]." "The principle of 'universal access' was just one of several debated Wednesday in Mountain View at a public meeting held by the 37-member group. The council was appointed by President Clinton early this year and charged with providing the administration with advice on how to deal with the growing information highway." "During its all-day meeting in Silicon Valley, the council debated the work of three sub-committees, dubbed mega-projects, set up to examine some crucial areas of revamping the country's telecommunications system." Regarding intellectual property, "Information providers, such as newspapers and movie producers, are concerned that the computer-based information highway could be used to replicate their copyrighted stories or films, but without them being paid." "Educators, librarians and researchers worry that technical mechanisms employed to prevent such copying could eliminate their existing rights to use some of the material in nonprofit ways. How to make sure that everyone in the country can use the information highway from the start, before it becomes as cheap and ubiquitous as telephone service or broadcast television. McCracken appears to have it figured out. "McCracken said it would take until around 2005 before most homes have their connections to the information highway. Until then, those who can't afford it will have to rely on sites such as libraries or schools to get access." MCCracken did leave one question open -- "But, he said, 'that brings up the real issue of funding, how much is from the private sector' and how much will come from the government -- something the council did not address at this meeting. Perhaps our host, David Barram of DOC, could tell the members of these lists what role our discussions here have in relation to the Clinton Council and how we can be assured that people such as McCracken will not dominate the Whitehouse's thinking about these matters? _______________________________________________________________________________ | W. Curtiss Priest, Ph.D. *********************** | | Center for Information, Technology, & Society * Improving humanity * | | * through technology * | | 466 Pleasant Street *********************** | | Melrose, MA 02176-4522 | | Voice: 617-662-4044 Gopher to our publications: | | Fax: 617-662-6882 GOPHER.STD.COM (under nonprofits) | _____________________________________________________________________________| From cyberoid@u.washington.edu Wed Nov 16 13:45:52 1994 Received: from stein3.u.washington.edu (cyberoid@stein3.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.3]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA08614 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:45:51 -0800 Received: by stein3.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW94.4/UW-NDC Revision: 2.30 ) id AA10017; Wed, 16 Nov 94 10:37:58 -0800 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 94 10:37:58 -0800 From: Robert Jacobson Message-Id: <9411161837.AA10017@stein3.u.washington.edu> X-Sender: cyberoid@stein3.u.washington.edu To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: [AVAIL:55] Thanks Al.... Donald Evans of Washington, DC, writes: >Has anyone stopped to think just how much we owe to Al Gore and >the current administration? > >In 1989, then Senator Gore introduced NREN Legislation, setting >the stage for the environment in which we now find ourselves. Apparently not many people have thought about it, Donald. I don't remember once the NREN legislation, the NII, or anything associated with the "Information Superhighway" being mentioned in the recent political debate, resulting in the Republican romp in Congress. In fact, contributions from firms benefiting from NII-associated policy, like the telephone companies and cable television firms, overwhelming favored Republican over Democratic congressional candidates. As for the "common person," the NII proved less important than gun control, abortion, civil rights, tax policy, or plain ornariness as a determinant of how he or she voted. We would all do well to be less "info-centric" and realize that while we may propose good policies that would be very effective if implemented, if these policies don't matter to the public, there won't be the necessary initiative to break the coming Capital legislative- executive branch logjam. Outreach has to go beyond the Internet to reach the vast majority of the public. But how? Via TV, with its own biases? Cable TV (the same)? Newspapers (the same)? Online information services (the same)? The Info Superhighway as a concept contains within it this primary contradiction: that to realize the ISH in democratic form requires popular support that may not be attainable using the existing, self-interested communication media and their private owners. Bob Jacobson From cyberoid@u.washington.edu Wed Nov 16 14:12:07 1994 Received: from stein3.u.washington.edu (cyberoid@stein3.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.3]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA11385 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 14:12:06 -0800 Received: by stein3.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW94.4/UW-NDC Revision: 2.30 ) id AA12164; Wed, 16 Nov 94 11:04:13 -0800 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 94 11:04:13 -0800 From: Robert Jacobson Message-Id: <9411161904.AA12164@stein3.u.washington.edu> X-Sender: cyberoid@stein3.u.washington.edu To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: [AVAIL:64] Who does this Administration Really Listen To? W. Curtiss Priest writes, regarding the Infrastructure Advisory Council: Perhaps our host, David Barram of DOC, could tell the members of these lists what role our discussions here have in relation to the Clinton Council and how we can be assured that people such as McCracken will not dominate the Whitehouse's thinking about these matters? Ironically, McCracken's firm, Silicon Graphics, is spending a bundle to create technology for bringing interactive TV to the home. If he says these services are coming to the home in 2005, he could be right -- or bluffing. Who can tell? Bob Jacobson From paul.kaski@camp.org Wed Nov 16 14:21:12 1994 Received: from camp.org (edison.camp.org [199.29.138.5]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA12243 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 14:21:10 -0800 Received: from campgate.camp.org by camp.org (4.1/3.1.090690-Cleveland Advanced Manufacturing Program) id AA24480; Wed, 16 Nov 94 14:12:41 EST Received: by campgate.camp.org with Microsoft Mail id <2ECA59AE@campgate.camp.org>; Wed, 16 Nov 94 14:12:46 EST From: "CAMP: Kaski, Paul E." To: avail Subject: RE: [AVAIL:63] Date: Wed, 16 Nov 94 14:01:00 EST Message-Id: <2ECA59AE@campgate.camp.org> Encoding: 8 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 I subscribed to PRIVACY on Monday, and I have been getting ms's. I don't know if I'm missing any, but the numbers are consecutive. Paul E. Kaski Cleveland ECRC paul.kaski@camp.org ---------- From BMSLIB@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Wed Nov 16 15:07:32 1994 Received: from mitvma.mit.edu (MITVMA.MIT.EDU [18.92.0.3]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA17072 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 15:07:32 -0800 Message-Id: <199411162307.PAA17072@virtconf.digex.net> Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8963; Wed, 16 Nov 94 14:39:19 EST Received: from MITVMA (NJE origin BMSLIB@MITVMA) by MITVMA.MIT.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7159; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 14:39:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 94 14:36:01 EST From: "W. Curtiss Priest" Subject: Re: [AVAIL:65] Re: Thanks Al.... To: NTIA Forum on Availability and Cost In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:46:39 -0800 from I have to agree with Robert Jacobson. I thought -- wow, here Al Gore is in 'power' and all those wonderful bills on Software Clearinghouses and the NREN and the possibilities for true public information systems. Then I watched him at the second NII gathering at UCLA with Disney and all the other information industry mights and I realized that he may believe, after all, the rhetoric of the Republicans -- that the market place will solve all the problems -- even education, personal health, and governance. Al where are you now that we really need you? _______________________________________________________________________________ | W. Curtiss Priest, Ph.D. *********************** | | Center for Information, Technology, & Society * Improving humanity * | | * through technology * | | 466 Pleasant Street *********************** | | Melrose, MA 02176-4522 | | Voice: 617-662-4044 Gopher to our publications: | | Fax: 617-662-6882 GOPHER.STD.COM (under nonprofits) | _____________________________________________________________________________| From MCDANIEL@wvuadmin3.csc.wvu.edu Wed Nov 16 15:54:14 1994 Received: from names.telcom.wvu.edu (names.wvu.edu [157.182.140.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA21233 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 15:54:14 -0800 Received: from nameserv.csc.wvu.edu by names.telcom.wvu.edu (4.1/SMI-4.0:JF-052892) id AA04151; Wed, 16 Nov 94 14:50:51 EST Received: from wvuadmin3.csc.wvu.edu by nameserv.csc.wvu.edu (8.6.4/JLF-112293) id OAA14965; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 14:52:18 -0500 Received: from WVUADMIN3/SpoolDir by wvuadmin3.csc.wvu.edu (Mercury 1.13); Wed, 16 Nov 94 14:41:29 EST -0500GMT Received: from SpoolDir by WVUADMIN3 (Mercury 1.13); Wed, 16 Nov 94 14:41:08 EST -0500GMT From: "Lew McDaniel" Organization: WVU Computing Services To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 14:41:01 EST Subject: Re: [AVAIL:64] Who does this Administration Really Listen To? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.20) Message-Id: <3D422014D90@wvuadmin3.csc.wvu.edu> > "Libraries, schools and community centers are the most likely places that > poor and rural Americans will have to go to tap into the much-vaunted > information highway, at least until the next century, according to draft > documents being discussed by a presidential advisory council." Pehaps this council will go along with the notion that no home receives information highway access until every library, every public access point, all K-12, every vocational school, and all higher education is installed and active. Yeah, right. I find the council's notion ironic, since the information age has the potential to empower regardless of location or economic class. No one would argue that education should be afforded to each of us, but the council would drastically restrict valuable tools which help us learn. Some suggest the impending creation of information haves and have nots. I see them already created in the contrast in educational and technological opportunities between today's poor and rich areas. My state is poor, rural and our tax base is diminishing. I see the Information Age as a way to lessen crushing ignorance and perhaps provide jobs that ease poverty. The presidential council as represented in the quote above from the San Jose newspaper would exacerbate, rather than ameliorate the problem. ==================== L. W. McDaniel Assistant Director Computing Services West Virginia University PO Box 6504 Morgantown, WV 26506-6504 Voice: 304-293-3011 x2125 FAX: 304-293-6726 From mathews@gold.chem.hawaii.edu Wed Nov 16 16:15:52 1994 Received: from gold.chem.hawaii.edu (gold.chem.Hawaii.Edu [128.171.55.9]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA22950 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 16:15:47 -0800 Received: by gold.chem.hawaii.edu (4.1/gold-MX-1.9) id AA25635; Wed, 16 Nov 94 11:05:08 HST Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 10:28:22 -1000 (HST) From: R U Licensed To Navigate in Cyberspace? Subject: An Attempt At Equity.. Was Re: [INTELLEC:54] Who does this Administration Really Listen To? To: Donald Lewine Cc: Multiple recipients of list In-Reply-To: <9411161850.AA10162@cheshirecat.webo.dg.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 16 Nov 1994, Donald Lewine wrote: > > Perhaps our host, David Barram of DOC, could tell the members of > > these lists what role our discussions here have in relation to the > > Clinton Council and how we can be assured that people such as > > McCracken will not dominate the Whitehouse's thinking about these > > matters? > > Given the new political realities of Washington. I think the > chances for any additional funding for universal access to > the NII are very slim indeed. > > [ snip... snip... ] > > As one administration official said to me yesterday, "To get things > done around here, the last thing you want is Clinton's endorsement." > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Donald A. Lewine (508) 898-6488 Voice > Data General Corporation (508) 366-0750 FAX > 4400 Computer Drive. MS D112A > Westboro, MA 01580 U.S.A. > Internet: Don_Lewine@dg.com -or- > dlewine@cheshirecat.webo.dg.com > > All opinions in this message are logical, well reasoned and my own. Ladies and Gentlemen: I am a LATE arrival to the List, and have been watching this thread develop. I am taking the liberty to post this message from the "Intellectual Property" list to the "Universal Access and Availability" list, as it appears to me that the subject is best suited for this area. Forgive me for this move.. I am affiliated with a Non-Profit Organization that is very much involved with evolving issues surrounding Network presence and equity issues. And inlight of the APEC Summit, currently underway, I thought it be best to post a voice from the midst of the Pacific; still American.. :> With reagrd to Equity; or atleast an attempt toward this, I am forced to look upon the strides made in the area of PUBLIC consciousness on the NII/GII issue since the arrival of the Clinton Administration. Afterall, it was NOT asthough the technology was NOT available prior.. I should know... I have been a proud NetCitizen since the days of ARPANET at 300 Baud.... It is my opinion that the LEVEL of consciousness in the minds of the American Public, needs to increase. And all must set aside PARTISAN politics and LITERALLY ADOPT the NII/GII focus to heart of a LOT remain, yet to be clarified in the minds of the public as to the "WHAT, WHY, HOW and WHEN?" Someone eloquently noted here that this issue should be an area of focus at a level akin to International Humanitarian aid etc. My personal fear is that with the change(s) in administration, that this area MIGHT be slated and not given the attention that it deserves. Furthermore, it is my belief that ATLEAST in the United States that if proper actions are NOT taken, we might very well witness the creation of a third world population -- in a first world nation, with respect to technology and the ability to react meaningfully with the same. All the best, Robert Mathews. --------------- --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chairman - Steering Committee Tel: + 808.921.2097 The Pacific Network Consortium Ltd. Fax: + 808.921.2097 Suites 814 & 815 Tel: + 808.533.3969 415 Nahua Street Fax: + 808.533.3969 (RB) Honolulu, Hawaii 96815 - 2949 E.mail: mathews@gold.chem.hawaii.edu United States of America. E.mail: RMATHEWS@TECHNOLOGY.TAMU.EDU ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From rkm2@columbia.edu Wed Nov 16 17:06:13 1994 Received: from konichiwa.cc.columbia.edu ([128.59.40.132]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA26454 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 17:06:13 -0800 Received: by konichiwa.cc.columbia.edu id AA15261 (5.65c+CU/IDA-1.4.4/HLK for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Wed, 16 Nov 1994 16:57:10 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 16:57:09 -0500 (EST) From: Redmond Kathleen Molz Subject: Re: [AVAIL:12] Re: To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >subscribe wvia On Tue, 15 Nov 1994, Cynthia S. Terwilliger wrote: > > > On Mon, 14 Nov 1994, WVIA Virtual Conference Account wrote: > > > subscribe wvia > > > From kenneth.l.alford@pentagon-1dms2.army.mil Wed Nov 16 17:06:43 1994 Received: from pentagon-1dms0.army.mil (PENTAGON-1DMS0.ARMY.MIL [134.11.51.1]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA26487 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 17:06:35 -0800 Received: by pentagon-1dms0.army.mil (4.1/SMI-4.1-MHS-7.0) id AA02326; Wed, 16 Nov 94 16:59:06 EST Received: by pentagon-1.army.mil (SXG 7.0a/gosip2_1.2) with X.400 id 00imc2cua001; 16 Nov 94 21:58:54 UT Date: 16 Nov 94 16:57:22-0500 P1-Message-Id: US* *GOV+DMS+MILNET;941116215722 P1-Recipient: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov From: "Alford, Kenneth L." To: "NTIA_Avail" Subject: Request for GII Information Message-Id: <"00037AF0.MAI"*kenneth.l.alford@pentagon-1dms2.army.mil> I'm researching national and international efforts to create information superhighways in countries other than the United States (the Global Information Infrastructure, as it's often called), and I would appreciate receiving information or information sources about the Global Information Infrastructure. I'm a student at the U.S. Army's Command and General Staff College (located at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas) and am doing an independent research project on this topic. Thank you for any information you can provide, - Major Ken Alford eMail: KENNETH.L.ALFORD@PENTAGON-1DMS2.ARMY.MIL From sbrenner@efn.org Wed Nov 16 17:11:40 1994 Received: from skinner.cs.uoregon.edu (skinner.cs.uoregon.edu [128.223.4.13]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA26951 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 17:11:39 -0800 Received: from efn.org by skinner.cs.uoregon.edu with SMTP id AA16889 (5.65/IDA-1.4.2 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Wed, 16 Nov 94 14:03:43 -0800 Received: from net16.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA02573; Wed, 16 Nov 94 14:02:47 PST Message-Id: <9411162202.AA02573@efn.efn.org> X-Sender: sbrenner@efn.org (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 15:00:07 -0800 To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov, Multiple recipients of list From: sbrenner@efn.org (Stephen A. Brenner) Subject: Re: [AVAIL:48] Re: my question...and more X-Mailer: Sounds like almost everyone will be a winner. The public gets their cheap access and optional exposure to ads, businesses get cost-effective advertizing. The people who will be complaining the most would have to be the tv networks who over time will be losing billions of dollars in ad revenue. >From a political perspective, when you think about how important election campaign ads on television have become and how expensive they are, it's intriguing to think that once the bandwidth is in place in the NII, effective new ways of reaching out to the electorate will be available to more than those with major capital. This is a revolutionary concept. Steve At 01:58 AM 11/16/94 -0800, Sean wrote: >By the by, I don't know if this is unclear or not, but I am not >suggesting that bussiness carry the entire balance of the net. >Rather, that public access should be guaranteed and that anyone >using the net for profit should have to pay for the right. Is >anyone in disagreement with this basic premise? >-- >---------------------------------------------------------------~ >| Sean Connelly "Cyberpunk is a revolution | >| sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu that has already become | >| sconnell@acoma.ucs.indiana.edu the establishment." | >| sleeze@well.sf.ca.us --Someone with a clue | >---------------------------------------------------------------~~ > > ---------------------\\\\\\\\\\//////////------------------- Stephen A. Brenner - Visions In America - sbrenner@efn.org ---------------------//////////\\\\\\\\\\------------------- From ronda@panix.com Wed Nov 16 17:11:47 1994 Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [198.7.0.3]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA26957 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 17:11:46 -0800 Received: by panix2.panix.com id AA05044 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Wed, 16 Nov 1994 17:03:54 -0500 From: Ronda Hauben Message-Id: <199411162203.AA05044@panix2.panix.com> Subject: Re: Paper on History and Impact of the Global Network To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 17:03:54 -0500 (EST) Cc: russellb@ext23.oes.orst.edu In-Reply-To: <2ec9b6b4.ext23@ext23.OES.ORST.EDU> from "RUSSELLB@ext23.oes.orst.edu" at Nov 16, 94 03:15:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1265 > > > I have a paper I have written recently about the development of > > the Global Network -- looking at its history and development. > > > > I would like to post it to this discussion but it is lengthy > > so want to know if that is ok. > > > I would suggest that you post instructions for obtaining it via ftp > and gopher and an offer to return it by e-mail for those who do > neither. This way (the Internet way) the recipient decides whether > to receive a lengthy document. > > Opinion of Bill Russell > > Unfortunately the most recent version ofthe paper isn't available via ftp or gopher. If people are interested you can send me email at rh120@columbia.edu and ask me to send a copy and I will send it email - if it seems at some point like it is worth posting it in two or three parts to the list, I would be willing to do so. Ronda ronda@panix.com or rh120@columbia.edu --- see my .plan at rh120@columbia.edu for www location of "The Netizens and the Wonderful World of the Web: On the History and Impact of the Global Computer Network" and for an outline of the paper I am working on about early work on time sharing and the vision of an intellectual public utility and its implications toward future policy on the Global Computer Network. From miwipper@mailbox.syr.edu Wed Nov 16 18:11:43 1994 Received: from mailbox.syr.edu (mailbox.syr.EDU [128.230.1.5]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA01231 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 18:11:42 -0800 Received: from kong.syr.edu by mailbox.syr.edu (8.6.9/SUM-V8-1.0) id SAA22721; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 18:05:20 -0500 Received: by kong.syr.edu (4.1/Spike-2.0) id AA14342; Wed, 16 Nov 94 18:05:38 EST Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 18:05:37 -0500 (EST) From: "Margaret I. Wipper" To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII unsubscribe availability and affordability Margaret Wipper From mathews@gold.chem.hawaii.edu Wed Nov 16 19:21:59 1994 Received: from gold.chem.hawaii.edu (gold.chem.Hawaii.Edu [128.171.55.9]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA06133 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 19:21:58 -0800 Received: by gold.chem.hawaii.edu (4.1/gold-MX-1.9) id AA26624; Wed, 16 Nov 94 14:13:44 HST Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:02:23 -1000 (HST) From: R U Licensed To Navigate in Cyberspace? Subject: The Super-Highway: Where to? To: Multiple recipients of list Cc: "W. Curtiss Priest" In-Reply-To: <199411162139.NAA07864@virtconf.digex.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 16 Nov 1994, W. Curtiss Priest wrote Re: Who does this Administration Really Listen To? : > A disturbing article appeared in the San Jose Mercury News on > October 20, 1994. It describes the opinions of the National Information > Infrastructure Advisory Council. > > [ Snip.. Snip.. ] > > The council is co-chaired by Silicon Graphics chief executive > Edward R. McCracken and Delano E. Lewis, president of National > Public Radio. Dr. Priest and fellow virtual conference participants: Perhaps, this specific contribution and my decision to address Dr. Priest's writing in the manner and context as I have chosen, MIGHT NOT serve this issue the justice it deserves. However, I shall attempt to render some thoughts -- that might be benefical to our gathering.. > The statements regarding accessibility and universal service were > particularly disturbing -- the group doesn't see homes involved > at all, but a reliance on libraries, schools and community places > to let most Americans gain access to the highway on into the next > century. I am NOT certain that we have sufficiently explored the involvement of REMOTE access (home based), as much as we have: the areas of Library and Public Schools based access to Global networks and resources. Hence, my hypothesis of a larger emphasis on PUBLIC access through libraries and public schools. Perhaps the emphasis on access through libraries are perpetuated by the rationale that libraries are an environment for discovery and learning. And thus the focus on access through schools also.. However, I am of the opinion that Tools and a certain Philosophy MUST exist to facilitate private (at home) introspection, foster the process of discovery and validation associated with, and regarding, these technologies for one's own use. For populations to embrace such technologies, atleast in a meaningful sense; the introductory process and the subsequent immersion of populations, should begin at home through such processes as interacting with community computing instruments. > [ Snip.. Snip.. ] > > MCCracken did leave one question open -- "But, he said, 'that brings up the > real issue of funding, how much is from the private sector' and how much > will come from the government -- something the council did not address > at this meeting. I am of the opinion that continued Federal funding is necessary to stimulate the evolution and maturity of private sector involvement in this area. Perhaps it should be suggested that a certain portion of budgets of such agencies as ARPA and DARPA together with the TRP - Technology Re-investment Project, allocate a set sum each year for the building of community, state and regional infrastructures with a Dual use purpose. This, to BOLSTER and enhance funding opportunities already available. ARPA and DARPA presently does provide certain funds INDIRECTLY toward this purpose.. I am suggesting.. a more DIRECT and COMITTED involvement to the strengthening a national position in this matter. >_______________________________________________________________________________ >| W. Curtiss Priest, Ph.D. *********************** | >| Center for Information, Technology, & Society * Improving humanity * | >| * through technology * | >| 466 Pleasant Street *********************** | >| Melrose, MA 02176-4522 | >| Voice: 617-662-4044 Gopher to our publications: | >| Fax: 617-662-6882 GOPHER.STD.COM (under nonprofits) | >_____________________________________________________________________________| All the best, Robert Mathews. --------------- --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chairman - Steering Committee Tel: + 808.921.2097 The Pacific Network Consortium Ltd. Fax: + 808.921.2097 Suites 814 & 815 Tel: + 808.533.3969 415 Nahua Street Fax: + 808.533.3969 (RB) Honolulu, Hawaii 96815 - 2949 E.mail: mathews@gold.chem.hawaii.edu United States of America. E.mail: RMATHEWS@TECHNOLOGY.TAMU.EDU ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From webdog@mercury.sfsu.edu Wed Nov 16 19:40:05 1994 Received: from mercury.sfsu.edu (mercury.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.162]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA07918 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 19:40:04 -0800 Received: from [130.212.25.52] (edu-52.sfsu.edu) by mercury.sfsu.edu (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA14398; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 16:32:13 -0800 Message-Id: <9411170032.AA14398@mercury.sfsu.edu> X-Sender: webdog@mercury.sfsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 17:33:42 -0800 To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov From: webdog@mercury.sfsu.edu (Jeff Schwartz) content-length: 166 .. SUBSCRIBE AVAIL JEFF SCHWARTZ --- Jeff Schwartz San Francisco State University Department of Instructional Technologies webdog@sfsu.edu http://edu-52.sfsu.edu From "SFPL::NTIA_PUB"@DRANET.DRA.COM Wed Nov 16 19:53:05 1994 Received: from DRANET.DRA.COM (dranet.dra.com [192.65.218.23]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA09048 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 19:53:04 -0800 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 18:43:35 -0600 (CST) From: San Francisco Public Libraray <"SFPL::NTIA_PUB"@DRANET.DRA.COM> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov X-Vmsmail-To: ADDRESS Message-Id: <941116184335.20212906@DRANET.DRA.COM> Subject: NTIA Public Comment i am sitting in the corner of the card catalogue room at the san francisco main library, blasted with heat from the oft-unused ven- tilator, doing what i hope i will be able to do for the rest of my years: use computers freely. internet, on-line discourse, rather, is invaluable; the role of the computer-friendly mind is becoming ever greater and the need to communicate within this medium needs to remain open to all. if not, we will fall into the abyss of the isolated world so heralded by the fearful critics of the first personal computers. we could become isolated humans in a cubicle existing only through our computer, it is true, but only if we choose this. i would choose otherwise. keep computers part of the schools and libraries, and definately make internet free to any who wish to use it. otherwise we are doomed. From: From bsummers@vt.edu Wed Nov 16 19:59:39 1994 Received: from vtucs.cc.vt.edu (vtucs.cc.vt.edu [128.173.4.72]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA09478 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 19:59:39 -0800 Message-Id: <199411170359.TAA09478@virtconf.digex.net> Received: from bsummers.bevc.blacksburg.va.us by vtucs.cc.vt.edu with SMTP (1.37.109.8/16.2) id AA16222; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 19:51:48 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 19:51:48 -0500 X-Sender: bsummers@mail.vt.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov From: bsummers@vt.edu (Bob Summers) Subject: Re: [AVAIL:76] The Super-Highway: Where to? X-Mailer: >> MCCracken did leave one question open -- "But, he said, 'that brings up the >> real issue of funding, how much is from the private sector' and how much >> will come from the government -- something the council did not address >> at this meeting. > > I am of the opinion that continued Federal funding is necessary >to stimulate the evolution and maturity of private sector involvement in >this area. Perhaps it should be suggested that a certain portion of >budgets of such agencies as ARPA and DARPA together with the TRP - Technology >Re-investment Project, allocate a set sum each year for the building of >community, state and regional infrastructures with a Dual use purpose. >This, to BOLSTER and enhance funding opportunities already available. I feel that it is the responsibility of Local government, educational institutions and the private sector to work together to create the required networks for private (home) and public use. The network that I am on is the Blacksburg Electronic Village, which is a joint venture between Virginia Tech, Bell Atlantic and the town of Blacksburg. There are certainly some Federal funds invested in this project that have made it possible. 25% of the residents of Blacksburg are hooked into the net. I am connected VIA a 1MB/sec line which is in my apartment. All complexes that have been built in the last 3 years have had these connections installed. Bob Summers Senior Computer Engineer Virginia Tech bsummers@vt.edu From msalo@garnet.acns.fsu.edu Wed Nov 16 23:04:04 1994 Received: from garnet.acns.fsu.edu (garnet.acns.fsu.edu [128.186.6.137]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA22608 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 23:04:03 -0800 Received: by garnet.acns.fsu.edu (5.65c/25-eef) id AA27803; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 22:56:13 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 22:27:17 +22311151 (EST) From: Marty Salo Subject: Re: [AVAIL:79] AVAIL digest 9 To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Cc: Marty Salo In-Reply-To: <199411170514.VAA15295@virtconf.digex.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Bob Summers wrote: > The network that I am on is the > Blacksburg Electronic Village, which is a joint venture between Virginia > Tech, Bell Atlantic and the town of Blacksburg. There are certainly some > Federal funds invested in this project that have made it possible. 25% of > the residents of Blacksburg are hooked into the net. I am connected VIA a > 1MB/sec line which is in my apartment. All complexes that have been built > in the last 3 years have had these connections installed. Kudos to you Bob. A T-1 line is good connectivity. It's good that Blacksburg has achieved 25%. I suppose I might be a bit dubious of that figure, but it doesn't really matter. I think we are talking about how to get that number close to 100%. Considering that telephone penetration is only around 93% (? and even that # is suspect), I'm not sure that we can achieve 100%. What we are talking about here is the haves and the have nots. I get the feeling that this group pretty much agrees the we should try to minimize the have nots. What I worry about is that the policy makers might just accept the 25% figure as adequate for the haves, and leave a vast majority in the have not category. The prospect of some people advancing at an exponential rate, while others merely advance by simple addition, is a frightening one, indeed. But I'm not too sure how this situation will be dealt with in the future. Any ideas as to how many people we, as a society, can afford to leave un-integrated into the information age? Marty Salo + msalo@garnet.acns.fsu.edu + http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~msalo From p.stein3@genie.geis.com Wed Nov 16 23:37:59 1994 Received: from relay2.geis.com (relay2.geis.com [192.77.188.3]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA25247 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 23:37:57 -0800 From: p.stein3@genie.geis.com Received: by relay2.geis.com (1.37.109.11/15.6) id AA034676569; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 04:29:29 GMT Message-Id: <199411170429.AA034676569@relay2.geis.com> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 02:21:00 UTC To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov X-Genie-Id: 3547977 X-Genie-From: P.STEIN3 from Paul Stein (P.stein3@genie.geis.com) addressed to avail,opnaces,and standard topics Though I subscribed and received confirmation of subscription--I have been : 1. overwhelmed by the sheer volume of e-mail in my mailbox today! (73 letters) 2...unable to participate--the commercial service (genie) doesn't have full internet capability as of today. only e-mail sending and receiving. 3.Though I received instructions and set up a "password" --I have no knowledge or instructions on how to use that password to permit entering the "conference"--- Very discouraging; and even more so, because many of my "peers with weak ears" (people with hearing loss) -consider me to be the "expert"they look to for guidance. Anyhow, here's my input: To the novice/newcommer to telecomunications---the internet is a mysterious "tower of technobabble", with so many different codes,abreviations,protocols, modems, addresses,passwords, linkages, etc.-- the physical time required to learn to use it with any degree of utility -- doesent let the average citizen participate. We need: A) STANDARD COMMUNICATIONS TERMINAL For those "on-ramps and off-ramps" to the info superhighway of the future , we need a standardized computer (hardware and software). While the competitive, free market philosophy that produced the fantastic progress since the advent of the microprocessor---the "monster" is totally out of control, in my opinion. It's time to cage that monster or at least harness it if the average human is to use its capabilities. B) IDENTIFICATION/ADDRESSING Why not use our existing numbering system (the Social Security Number) as an individual's address for communication? C) OPEN ACCESS /PRIVACY A contradiction in terms! (like military intelligence :) D) AFFORDABILITY Different meanings of this criterion (depending on the socio-economic status of the individual) examples: "286" computers and others are being melted down for gold recovery by some on the basis that its "economically viable"--while many at the lower end of the economic spectrum can't afford food and shelter to survive, let alone aquire a computer. Millions of dollars are being spent by people today on "Computer Training" specifically aimed at existing systems of today--which will be obsolete and useless by the time they learn enough. That's "A to D"--no time to continue thru X,Y, and Z. To summarize, the good intentions of the NTI in doing this conference is appreciated--but it seems to me that the conference was accessable only to the "elite" technocrats that got this Nation into the mess we're stuck with. God forbid that any unrevocable decisions be made on the basis of this conference. Looking back at what I've composed here, I still feel firmly that the first step (A) above should take priority--design,testing,production and distribution of a simple to operate ("turnkey") computer terminal usable with much less training and talent than is needed for today's "state of the art" computers. Paul From edb1@Ra.MsState.Edu Wed Nov 16 23:39:39 1994 Received: from Tut.MsState.Edu (root@Tut.MsState.Edu [130.18.80.36]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA25399 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 23:39:38 -0800 Received: from Isis.MsState.Edu (edb1@Isis.MsState.Edu [130.18.80.11]); by Tut.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.6.9/6.5m-FWP); id WAA20328; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 22:31:46 -0600 Received: (edb1@localhost); by Isis.MsState.Edu (8.6.8.1/6.0c-FWP); id WAA20697; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 22:31:40 -0600 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 22:31:39 -0600 (CST) From: Ellen Davis Burnham X-Sender: edb1@Isis.MsState.Edu To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: [AVAIL:44] Re: my question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Businesses supplying FREENETS to libraries for everyone to have access is wonderful... BUT what about us that are the **ONLY** person in your town that does any significant amount of traveling over the Internet. Not to mention that it was just two months ago the library even obtained a computer (to access encyclopedia information) and City Hall is just NOW putting court cases on a computer. We're a small town in Mississippi, we have a small tax base, and a small school. I have a problem convincing these people they need any electronic access to the outer world. Fortunately I have Mississippi State University close by to lend support (morally and intellectually) and I go to them constantly. My question, since I've gone around the world, is what do you do about availability to the Internet when there's no computer base to access? How do you convince people they need something they've seen? "Ellen" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------~~ Ellen Davis Burnham INTERNET: edb1.@ra.msstate.edu Rt. 2 Box 63A HOME NUMBER: 601-447-3463 Okolona, MS 38860 +++++LIVE LONG & PROSPER (YA'LL)++++ {Graduate Student at MSU} ---------------------------------------------------------------------------~~ From langley@dirac.scri.fsu.edu Thu Nov 17 09:35:42 1994 Received: from dirac.scri.fsu.edu (dirac.scri.fsu.edu [144.174.128.44]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA29446 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 09:35:42 -0800 Received: by dirac.scri.fsu.edu id AA91585 (5.67b/IDA-1.4.4 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Thu, 17 Nov 1994 09:27:51 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 09:27:51 -0500 From: Randolph Langley Message-Id: <199411171427.AA91585@dirac.scri.fsu.edu> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov In-Reply-To: Subject: [AVAIL:57] Re: my question I agree wholeheartedly - the Internet costs so little, and benefits so many. As with the interstate highway system, it is a proper and effective activity for the federal government. I believe most of the citizenry would not care to see the interstate system given over to a few large toll companies, and I believe the Internet will be on the scale of economic and cultural benefit as the interstate system. rdl James McDonough writes: > I want to add my voice to those favoring greater, not less, government > intervention in the development of the NII (or GII) to protect the > interest of the people against the narrow sectarian interests of large > telecommunications industries. Why the federal government gave up it part > ownership in the Internet backbone is a mystery to me. An active, > interventionist government is essential to assure universal access at > affordable prices from people living in heart of the cities or in the > Upper Peninsula of Michigan. > > James McDonough > Bethesda, MD From silke001@maroon.tc.umn.edu Thu Nov 17 10:02:21 1994 Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA01162 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 10:02:20 -0800 Received: from dialup-5-84.gw.umn.edu by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Thu, 17 Nov 94 08:52:56 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 08:58:19 CST From: "Chris Silker" Message-Id: <46075.silke001@maroon.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_16 Reply-To: X-POPMail-Charset: English To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: [AVAIL:83] AVAIL digest 11 [snip] To summarize, the good intentions of the NTI in doing this conference is appreciated--but it seems to me that the conference was accessable only to the "elite" technocrats that got this Nation into the mess we're stuck with. God forbid that any unrevocable decisions be made on the basis of this conference. [snip] Paul ============================================================================ I think this conference was accessible to more than just "elite technocrats." I, for instance, am a graduate student at the U of MN. I have access because everyone who attends the University has access, and can apply their access via numerous computer labs that are open to all students. I think a lot of people don't realize that we're at a very critical point with determining the future of resources such as the Internet. I join you in hoping that no irreversible decisions are made on the basis of this conference - there needs to be a much wider opportunity for public comment. My "Utopian" vision of the e-future includes reasonably-priced access for those who have modems, telephone lines, and computers (access such as that provided by the Twin Cities Computer Network) as well as access through the public library system for people who do not have home computers or telephone lines. My greatest fear is that the future will be dominated by commercial services such as Prodigy, America Online, and CompuServe. Chris Silker University of Minnesota Departments of Rhetoric and Forest Resources From ntia Thu Nov 17 12:20:26 1994 Received: (from ntia@localhost) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id MAA11551 for avail; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 12:20:26 -0800 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 12:20:26 PST From: NTIA Virtual Conference To: avail Sender: az908@freenet.carleton.ca (Paul Holden) Subject: Re: Availability of statistics Message-ID: > possible with our network. There should, however, be a source for the > public to get our data from, we get paid by community-money so the > community should benefit the results of our efforts. > I am wondering how these matters are regulated in the other countries > who participate in the Virtual Conference Well, here in Canada, the government has several gopher servers, one of them from Statistics Canada. This gopher gives the latest statistics put out by the government. I'm not sure exactly how it works though since I've only breifly visited it once. -- Paul Holden "Float like a butterfly, az908@freenet.carleton.ca sting like a bee." From debbie@periplum.cdinet.com Thu Nov 17 13:10:45 1994 Received: from periplum.cdinet.com (root@periplum.cdinet.com [198.77.80.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA15522 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 13:10:44 -0800 Received: from harmony.cdinet.com. (harmony.cdinet.com [198.77.80.21]) by periplum.cdinet.com (8.6.8/8.6.8) with SMTP id NAA11610 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 13:09:02 -0500 Received: by harmony.cdinet.com. (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA27861; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 13:05:10 +0500 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 13:05:09 -0500 (EST) From: debbie Sender: debbie Reply-To: debbie Subject: Re: [AVAIL:28] Re: Key Issues of Affordability and Availability To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Cc: Multiple recipients of list In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII content-length: 1557 On Tue, 15 Nov 1994, Barcelo Alain-Michel wrote: > > One issue of affordability and availability which has not been raised yet > is the question of trans-national or international use of, for example, > the Internet. Since there is no multilateral organization to regulate > rates between countries with public and/or private telecom companies, we > could have people deprived of access to important information which would > have been conceived especially for them, or without any tought given to > their deprivation. > A very good point. I guess that the US governmnet's Data Highway Policy deals more or less with universal access within US borders only. But given the opening up of trade globally--e.g. NAFTA, EEC.--the opening up of information on a global scale would be a logical next step. AT&T and Microsoft's proposal (sometime in mid January of this year) to link the globe with 840 satellites would enable/facilitate the international use of the Internet. But its cost--$9 billion--is daunting. Another major sticking point of this proposal is that it requires a coordination of the use of satellite frequencies with other countries, countries that probably have their own plans to launch satellite systems of their own. Also, the proposal would also involve seeking permission from all countries in the world to beam signals in and out of the countries' borders--a process that could be politically charged. Perhaps this is something the International Telecommunications Union should look into, and/or have a say in. From chrisw@muskox.alaska.edu Thu Nov 17 13:32:08 1994 Received: from muskox.alaska.edu (muskox.alaska.edu [137.229.17.200]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA17374 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 13:32:05 -0800 Received: by muskox.alaska.edu (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA10297; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 09:28:56 -0900 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 09:28:56 -0900 (AST) From: Christine Weiss To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Who will fund? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Another viewpoint to add to the discussion comes from John Browning in an article from the Sept. '94 issue of WIRED: "...universal service is a 1930's solution to a 21st century problem. ...the solution is Open Access." In a nutshell, it seems that Open Access would ensure a competetive marketplace, that would in turn keep costs low. Another option, for what its worth... cw Petersburg, Alaska From scxp01@spd3b201.af.mil Thu Nov 17 13:57:35 1994 Received: from spd3b201.af.mil (SPD3B201.AF.MIL [131.17.15.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA19449 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 13:57:33 -0800 From: scxp01@spd3b201.af.mil Message-Id: <199411172157.NAA19449@virtconf.digex.net> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 12:45:20 CST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] unsubscribe scxp01@spd3b201.af.mil From advertise@interact.us.com Thu Nov 17 14:35:30 1994 Received: from tango.rahul.net (root@tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA21991 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 14:35:24 -0800 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA19614 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 17 Nov 1994 11:27:27 -0800 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA25250 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Thu, 17 Nov 1994 11:27:25 -0800 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 11:27:24 -0800 (PST) From: Saundra Knowles To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII subscribe Saundra @ Los Gatos, CA 95030 Tel:408 356-5303 From <@VM.MARIST.EDU:SB03010@EXCELINK.MARIST.EDU> Thu Nov 17 15:27:59 1994 Received: from VM.MARIST.EDU (vm.marist.edu [148.100.1.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA26430 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 15:27:59 -0800 Received: from VM.MARIST.EDU by VM.MARIST.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1953; Thu, 17 Nov 94 15:18:16 EST Received: from EXCELINK.MARIST.EDU (NJE origin MUSICE@MARIST) by VM.MARIST.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1147; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 15:18:16 -0500 Message-Id: <17NOV94.16514301.0022.MUSIC@EXCELINK.MARIST.EDU> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 15:17:27 EST From: "Bernasconi, Tracy" To: Subject: XLHE OP X-Mailer: MUSIC/SP V3.1.1 Subject: >From ID: SB03010 Name: Bernasconi, Tracy, Marist College - Project Team Type: ORG Class: PVT Date: Thu 17 Nov 1994, 3:17pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- .. From rpcoffin@dow.com Thu Nov 17 15:31:03 1994 Received: from na1.dow.com (na1.dow.com [198.17.33.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA26639 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 15:31:02 -0800 Received: by na1.dow.com id AA32259 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 1.1 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Thu, 17 Nov 1994 15:23:09 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 14:22:28 -0600 Message-Id: <94111714222854@txpcea.tx.dow.com> From: rpcoffin@dow.com (Robert Peter Coffin 409-238-2928) To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Affordability and Availability X-Vms-To: smtp%"avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov" subscribe From ronda@panix.com Thu Nov 17 16:02:04 1994 Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [198.7.0.3]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA28257 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 16:02:04 -0800 Received: by panix2.panix.com id AA13472 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Thu, 17 Nov 1994 15:54:08 -0500 From: Ronda Hauben Message-Id: <199411172054.AA13472@panix2.panix.com> Subject: RE: [Avail:90] Who will fund? To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 15:54:07 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199411172255.OAA23567@virtconf.digex.net> from "avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov" at Nov 17, 94 02:55:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3846 > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 09:28:56 -0900 (AST) > From: Christine Weiss > To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov > Subject: Who will fund? > Message-ID: > > > Another viewpoint to add to the discussion comes from John Browning in an > article from the Sept. '94 issue of WIRED: > > "...universal service is a 1930's solution to a 21st century problem. > ...the solution is Open Access." Universal service is needed because the "marketplace" is NOT to be relied on in the 1990's just as it couldn't be relied on in the 1930"s. The MYTH that the so called "MARKETPLACE" solves the problems that are raised in a high technology situation is a myth. Under a regulated environment Bell Labs of AT&T created the transistor, Unix, and other important technological advances. Under government funding and requirements - the ARPANET research was carried out and provided the basis for the Internet. Under government funding and regulation the NSF helped to develop and expand the Internet. This history and background needs to be seriously examined by those who want a forward step in the development of the Internet and the Global Computer Network. Instead of the real history of how the Global Computer Network being considered in the quest for the path forward, the preconceived solution that benefits the big corporations is thrust forward as the solution. Telephone service for the public has deteriorated and become more expensive with deregulation of the phone system in the U.S. And instead of AT&T spending money on technological improvements as it was forced to do in the 1970's (when it had to automate to improve service and in the process gave the world Unix) we get fairytails about the superiority of the "marketplace". > In a nutshell, it seems that Open Access would ensure a competetive > marketplace, that would in turn keep costs low. With the deregulation of the U.S. telephone company, when I make a phone call from a pay phone, more than 1/2 the time they aren't working, and when they are I am likely to get a carrier who charges me outrageous rates for a few minutes on a long distance call. It seems more that we need to look back at the original problems that led to the understanding that universal service was needed - rather than return to the days when the public is fleeced in the name of so called "open access". > > Another option, for what its worth... > > cw > Petersburg, Alaska > What is the problem you are trying to solve? If it is how to make money for the companies that want to get rich off of the U.S. taxpayer investment in the research that has resulted in the Global Computer Network -- then perhaps so called "open access" as you put it is an option. But for those of us who want the Net to Grow and develop in a way consistent with its previous development, we want low cost or free access to be available to everyone who wants it -- that has -- as far as I know -- been termed universal service. A Net needs to be as extensive as possible -- that is why universal service as a principle was adopted for the U.S. telephone company -- there are those areas that the "market" wouldn't bring phone service to - and there needed to be regulation requiring that those areas where service was cheaper to install would help subsidize those areas where service might be more expensive to install. Extension of the Global Network around the U.S. requires such support and regulation today as extension of the telephone system required such support and regulation in the 1930's. ronda ronda@panix.com or ronda@umcc.umich.edu --- write for a free email issue of "The Amateur Computerist" celebrating the 25th anniversary of Unix - ronda@umcc.umich.edu From <@VM.MARIST.EDU:SB03010@EXCELINK.MARIST.EDU> Thu Nov 17 16:10:52 1994 Received: from VM.MARIST.EDU (vm.marist.edu [148.100.1.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA29028; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 16:10:51 -0800 Received: from VM.MARIST.EDU by VM.MARIST.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1840; Thu, 17 Nov 94 14:59:24 EST Received: from EXCELINK.MARIST.EDU (NJE origin MUSICE@MARIST) by VM.MARIST.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0360; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 14:59:24 -0500 Message-Id: <17NOV94.16174809.0031.MUSIC@EXCELINK.MARIST.EDU> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 14:58:35 EST From: "Bernasconi, Tracy" To: , , , , Subject: XLHE OP X-Mailer: MUSIC/SP V3.1.1 Subject: >From ID: SB03010 Name: Bernasconi, Tracy, Marist College - Project Team Type: ORG Class: PVT Date: Thu 17 Nov 1994, 2:58pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- subscribe From <@VM.MARIST.EDU:SB03004@EXCELINK.MARIST.EDU> Thu Nov 17 16:35:23 1994 Received: from VM.MARIST.EDU (vm.marist.edu [148.100.1.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA01576 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 16:35:21 -0800 Received: from VM.MARIST.EDU by VM.MARIST.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2385; Thu, 17 Nov 94 16:25:35 EST Received: from EXCELINK.MARIST.EDU (NJE origin MUSICE@MARIST) by VM.MARIST.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3763; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 16:25:35 -0500 Message-Id: <17NOV94.17725751.0018.MUSIC@EXCELINK.MARIST.EDU> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 16:24:45 EST From: "Rapisarda, Alessandra" To: "Rapisarda, Alessandra" , Subject: XLHE OP X-Mailer: MUSIC/SP V3.1.1 Subject: >From ID: SB03004 Name: Rapisarda, Alessandra, Marist College - Project Team Type: ORG Class: PVT Date: Thu 17 Nov 1994, 4:24pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Frank- In response to your request for prior research on telecommunications policies favoring economic development vs. universal service, I offer our Network's first year analysis. ExceLink -The Communications Network is a online, computer-mediated information system enabling member companies to access and share information electronically and immediately with other businesses. Concentrating service to smaller business, specifically the smaller manufacturer in New York State, ExceLink is a business tool, providing the valuable information available on the Internet to those that otherwise cannot afford, nor maintain the resources necessary to use the Information Superhighway. ExceLink is truly an integration of these two focuses. In providing procurement information to member companies, ExceLink is at the heart of the movement to bring new and varied economic opportunities to smaller companies, long dependent on their larger partners for sustenance. Similarly, these same companies take advantage of advanced technology developed by partnerships both within the College, as well as regional businesses. Through these partnerships, ExceLink is able to service small companies with options such as ISO9000 Certification, Expert Technical Advice and Electronic Data Interchange (EDI) at lower cost and facilitated mediation. I would welcome a discussion surrounding ExceLink's mission to illustrate how we can unite these two philosophies of information access and development. The First Year's Report is available to all those that are interested. Thank you. Sincerely, Alex Rapisarda Information Specialist SB03004@ExceLink.Marist.edu ExceLink -The Communications Network Marist College Dyson 386, 290 North Road Poughkeepsie, NY 12601-1387 voice:914-575-5200 fax:914-575-3139 :) From chage@rahul.net Thu Nov 17 17:24:40 1994 Received: from tango.rahul.net (root@tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA06707 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 17:24:36 -0800 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA25836 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 17 Nov 1994 14:16:41 -0800 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA09399 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Thu, 17 Nov 1994 14:16:39 -0800 Received: by slick.chage.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19439; Thu, 17 Nov 94 13:05:41 PST Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 13:05:41 PST From: chage@rahul.net (Carl Hage) Message-Id: <9411172105.AA19439@slick.chage.com> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: [AVAIL:41] my question >From: Marty Salo > > So, I guess I'm wanting some sort of >feedback as to how thw present administration feels about letting the >libraries try to satisfy the public's desire to connect to the net. Will >this be yet another example where government sides with business, and the >library's role is diminished? Will we have 50,000 channels with all >sorts of complex and expensive packaging of channels? I cringe whenever I see the "channel" metaphor used in the context of the "information infrastructure" as to me it implies the one way, noninteractive TV like broadcast, rather than a metaphor like "archive" or "library" which refer to information sources. I think the libraries role can be enhanced in a couple of ways. Of course a digital library accessable via network makes physical location irrelevant (except for access rights), so information kept at very large libraries, e.g. the library of congress, could be available at every local and school library, as well as to the home. There will be even more need for librarians to organize this information, and the field of library science might expand. Also, the use of terminals in libraries complements paper based documents. Many people find reading paper books and magazines more convienient than looking at a CRT. Thus one might go visit a library to have access to a printed collection. The terminals at the library could be used to access supplementary information which is referenced in the paper documents, or for less used referenced material. Likewise, the terminals may be used for searches and to retrieve documents which reference material which is available in print. I think it is important to avoid "expensive packaging of channels", and that networking, telecomminucations, and information services are unbundled. Public information should be truly public and freely accessable to all. Community libraries or individuals might pay a small fee for network usage to retrieve a document, but should not be charged for the right to obtain access. The Government Printing Office charges $375/year for the privalege of accessing the Federal Register, but limited free access is being made via some depository libraries. The $375 is substantially more than most internet providers charge for vastly more services. Perhaps this price might be justified on the basis of the number of users and the revenue obtained. However, the problem is that the GPO is obtaining little revenue from a tiny number of customers who are willing to pay the high fees just to access the Federal Register. Instead of providing free paper copies of documents in a few federal libraries, free access for everyone and all libraries could be done for less money. From chage@rahul.net Thu Nov 17 17:24:41 1994 Received: from tango.rahul.net (root@tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA06706 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 17:24:35 -0800 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA25831 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 17 Nov 1994 14:16:38 -0800 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA09387 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Thu, 17 Nov 1994 14:16:33 -0800 Received: by slick.chage.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19431; Thu, 17 Nov 94 12:23:44 PST Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 12:23:44 PST From: chage@rahul.net (Carl Hage) Message-Id: <9411172023.AA19431@slick.chage.com> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: Cheap Public Access >From: ab147@virgin.uvi.edu (Gary M. Goodlander) >I want to see cheap public access to the Internet, and >other informational services. I believe we can use the free market and competition to significantly lower the cost to access the net and provide a wide variety of options. There are a number of things that the government could do to enhance the competition and available services which would cost very little. The basic idea is to upgrade the information on internet providers maintained by internic.net so new users can easily obtain and redistribute a comprehensive list of all means to obtain access in a certain area. Alternative providers with very low cost will then be able to provide services without spending large amounts of money on advertising, and users will be better able to comparison shop and could either select the a low cost provider, a public access terminal, or a permium service which best matches thier needs. Many people do not realize there already are many low cost and even free ways to get access to the internet. For example: - Many BBS systems operated as a hobby provide free access with email to the internet. Typically these might have 1 or two phone lines with modems, so users might need to redial often and avoid peak use times. Off-line mail readers allow people to minimize connect time. - A number of coffee shops in San Francisco have public internet/SFNet terminals. For a quarter, you get access for a certain period of time (much longer than a video game). - FreeNets, CivicNets, etc. have systems operated by volunteers which provide free access or charge $10-$50 per year. - Some BBS operators and other enterpreneurs have expanded to being regular internet access providers, who offer lower cost, better services, etc. than the competition. - Libraries and schools are beginning to add terminals. If information on microfiche, etc. which libraries purchased were The biggest problem with access is that the public doesn't know how to get started. The services most heavily advertised on TV, etc. or major national chains are the only services most people know about. These happen to be the most expensive and typically have very poor access to internet (e.g. email only with a huge access fee). What could be done to solve this problem is to enhance the directories of providers maintained at internic.net, the organization which handles registration of internet domain names, etc. This single central directory could then be advertised and promoted as a place to find information on all providers at a certain area. Printouts for a given area could be distributed at libraries, schools, computer stores, newspapers, etc. Likewise, gopher, WWW, internet FAQs, internet books, etc. would reference the central list. What I envision, is that a user could connect to a WWW or gopher server, could send an email query, could direct dial via modem, or could dial with a touch-tone fax. Users could enter thier telephone number area code and prefix, and would receive detailed information on the providers with local or nearby numbers The best way for someone now to find a provider is to check the PDIAL list maintained on a volunteer basis, and accessable at various places on the internet. There is a registration at internic.net, but the information there is limited and it does not include many providers which exist on the PDIAL list. In my opinion, the maintainers of the directory at internic.net have not made a best effort to find all providers. There are a number of problems with the PDIAL list, which I think could be improved. One problem is that there is limited detail on the prices and services, and typically users need to be experts and send email or log into a service provider to find out basic information. That makes shopping difficult. Another problem is that not all providers are listed. There are many systems, BBSes, etc. which provide internet email (including expensive national providers) but are not listed, since this was beyond the scope of the project. There are a few missing, since it is up to the providers to send in information to the volunteer who maintains PDIAL. Public access terminals are also not part of the project. The PDIAL list is that it is somewhat difficult to use, since it a large file for the entire country which must be searched to find particular area. It would be nicer to have a server which could be queried so a user could type in an area code and prefix and could get back a list of providers nearby, with the category of telephone charges, e.g. local, ZUM long distance, centrex, etc. Local schools, newspapers, computer stores, etc. could redistribute copies of the local list. There is a query on ds.internic.net or rs.internic.net, but the information is incomplete and lacks detail. Providers of all forms could send in thier registration or update a registration for this central Internet directory via email, and could be processed by an automated server (as is done now for some domain name registrations). A standard form could be developed which would include the necessary details on the types of service, prices, etc. which would allow comparison shopping. It would also be important to include some basic information explaining the different types of services, and what there is to consider when selecting a provider. I think that a single central directory is the simplest solution which is maintained by an independent organization. The central internet registration, which I believe is funded under a government contract, seems to be the logical choice. (I suppose one could argue that the free market should compete, e.g. the books which are a dump of PDIAL for sale at a high cost, but are incomplete and obsolete. However, the public has no way to judge the quality of independent directories.) I propose that the internic registration services for maintaining internet provider information be substantially upgraded with some of the ideas presented here. Perhaps a 1/2 man year effort might be needed to implement the automated system and maintain it for a year. The contract requirements for rs.internic.net (or ds.internic.net) need to be altered or expanded to specify the expanded role with more detailed registration and query services. I suggest that some of the internet newsgroups should be used to debate the form of the services and the types of information maintained, and the contents of a FAQ file explaining the types of services and how to interpret the detailed information in the service providers list. Later, the registration of internet services could be expanded to include WWW services, shopping, etc., and the query capabilities could be enhanced. I would personally be willing to volunteer some help in getting such a process going, and/or to provide more detailed information on some ideas for maintaining a central internet services registration/directory. However, I believe it really needs to be done independently of a commercial company, and ideally should be done by some overall respected authority, e.g. the Internet Network Information Center, or a federal agency. From OUTLAWP@mail.firn.edu Thu Nov 17 17:27:44 1994 Received: from FIRNVX.FIRN.EDU (firnvx.firn.edu [150.176.240.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA07074 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 17:27:43 -0800 Received: with SMTP-MR; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 17:11:22 EST MR-Received: by mta FIRNVX; Relayed; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 17:11:22 -0500 (EST) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 17:03:50 EST From: "PEGGY S. OUTLAW (904)627-9651" Subject: Rural areas To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Posting-date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 17:11:00 EST Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E1431ZVMOOKK8Z X400-MTS-identifier: [;22117171114991/2450825@FIRNVX] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 0 I am interested in knowing what this administration plans to do to help rural areas get on the internet. In our rural county in north Florida, most of our families are below the poverty level. The best way for our citizens to have access to the information superhighway is through our schools. We need help in obtaining the equipment -- telephones lines, computers, modems. Are there grants out there which would help us with obtaining the basics From bsummers@vt.edu Thu Nov 17 17:35:14 1994 Received: from vtucs.cc.vt.edu (vtucs.cc.vt.edu [128.173.4.72]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA07684 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 17:35:14 -0800 Message-Id: <199411180135.RAA07684@virtconf.digex.net> Received: from bsummers.bevc.blacksburg.va.us by vtucs.cc.vt.edu with SMTP (1.37.109.8/16.2) id AA22978; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 17:27:09 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 17:27:09 -0500 X-Sender: bsummers@mail.vt.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov From: bsummers@vt.edu (Bob Summers) Subject: Re: [AVAIL:96] Re: my question X-Mailer: >>library's role is diminished? Will we have 50,000 channels with all >>sorts of complex and expensive packaging of channels? >I cringe whenever I see the "channel" metaphor used in the context of >the "information infrastructure" as to me it implies the one way, >noninteractive TV like broadcast, rather than a metaphor like "archive" or >"library" which refer to information sources. In order for the nation to access a common pool of information, such as the library of congress, an efficient system must be in place to handle the load of thousands of library's and other users to access the information. Yes, I believe that there will have to be an outlay of funds to provide such a system, not to mention the cost of putting the information online. These funds must come from the Federal government, since it is for the public. I believe that the main argument for the expenditure of such funds is that the majority of the public will not be able to access such a system because they cannot afford to be connected. How does Joe average American afford to purchase a computer and connection to the internet?? Perhaps he could go to the library. But who pays for all of the systems that go into the libraries across the country?? Perhaps a cooperation between local, state and federal would be the answer.. Bob Summers Senior Computer Engineer Virginia Tech bsummers@vt.edu From bsummers@vt.edu Thu Nov 17 17:45:27 1994 Received: from vtucs.cc.vt.edu (vtucs.cc.vt.edu [128.173.4.72]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA08450 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 17:45:26 -0800 Message-Id: <199411180145.RAA08450@virtconf.digex.net> Received: from bsummers.bevc.blacksburg.va.us by vtucs.cc.vt.edu with SMTP (1.37.109.8/16.2) id AA25259; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 17:37:35 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 17:37:35 -0500 X-Sender: bsummers@mail.vt.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov From: bsummers@vt.edu (Bob Summers) Subject: Re: [AVAIL:98] Rural areas X-Mailer: >I am interested in knowing what this administration plans to do to help >rural areas get on the internet. In our rural county in north Florida, >most of our families are below the poverty level. The best way for our >citizens to have access to the information superhighway is through our >schools. We need help in obtaining the equipment -- telephones lines, >computers, modems. Are there grants out there which would help us with >obtaining the basics If the federal government really wants to do something, they will support the rural areas by supplying internet hub access areas in libraries and schools. In the urban areas I believe that a connection to every house will be the way, but rural areas cost too much to cable everyone, with little return.. From bsummers@vt.edu Thu Nov 17 18:19:53 1994 Received: from vtucs.cc.vt.edu (vtucs.cc.vt.edu [128.173.4.72]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA10687 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 18:19:52 -0800 Message-Id: <199411180219.SAA10687@virtconf.digex.net> Received: from bsummers.bevc.blacksburg.va.us by vtucs.cc.vt.edu with SMTP (1.37.109.8/16.2) id AA02933; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 18:12:02 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 18:12:02 -0500 X-Sender: bsummers@mail.vt.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov From: bsummers@vt.edu (Bob Summers) X-Mailer: >I am interested in knowing what this administration plans to do to help >rural areas get on the internet. In our rural county in north Florida, >most of our families are below the poverty level. The best way for our >citizens to have access to the information superhighway is through our >schools. We need help in obtaining the equipment -- telephones lines, >computers, modems. Are there grants out there which would help us with >obtaining the basics If the federal government really wants to do something, they will support the rural areas by supplying internet hub access areas in libraries and schools. In the urban areas I believe that a connection to every house will be the way, but rural areas cost too much to cable everyone, with little return.. Bob Summers Senior Computer Engineer Virinia Tech bsummmers@vt.edu From rbarry@hopper.itc.virginia.edu Thu Nov 17 18:26:13 1994 Received: from virginia.edu (uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.7]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA11202 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 18:26:13 -0800 Received: from hopper.itc.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa06255; 17 Nov 94 18:18 EST Received: (from rbarry@localhost) by Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU (8.6.8/8.6.6) id SAA36755 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 18:18:20 -0500 From: Rey Barry Message-Id: <199411172318.SAA36755@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU> Subject: Re: [AVAIL:99] AVAIL digest 16 To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 18:18:20 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199411180135.RAA07684@virtconf.digex.net> from "avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov" at Nov 17, 94 05:35:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1709 > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 17:03:50 EST > From: "PEGGY S. OUTLAW (904)627-9651" > To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov > Subject: Rural areas > Message-ID: > > I am interested in knowing what this administration plans to do to help > rural areas get on the internet. In our rural county in north Florida, > most of our families are below the poverty level. The best way for our > citizens to have access to the information superhighway is through our > schools. We need help in obtaining the equipment -- telephones lines, > computers, modems. Are there grants out there which would help us with > obtaining the basics One active source in this area is NPTN - the National Public Telecommunications Network. They are vitally interested in seeing service to rural areas. One of the TII grant awards made Oct. 12 this year was $900,000 to NPTN to fund 20 rural free-net type local nets. NPTN is telnet-able and some of the most valuable information avalable on starting/running local networks comes from them. They have a proposal around to become the NPR of cyberspace. The network has 32 local nets in its membership as of last week, and 122 in the planning stage. I have nothing to do with this group. I ran across them when trying to prepare for these forums. We're struggling to get a local network going in Central Virginia and, as we were turned down for a TIIA on Oct. 12, we're now fishing other waters. -- rbarry@hopper.itc.virginia.edu Freeware Hall of Fame BBS The only thing Americans Hayes Optima 288 - 804-293-4710 have in common is paranoia. Free BBS - 1st call downloads From ntia Thu Nov 17 18:30:39 1994 Received: (from ntia@localhost) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id SAA11748; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 18:30:39 -0800 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 18:30:38 PST From: NTIA Virtual Conference To: avail, privacy, info, standard, redefus, opnacces, intellec Subject: Virtual Conference EXTENDED Message-ID: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: CONTACT: Stephanie Schoumacher November 17, 1994 Paige Darden (202) 482-1551 CLINTON ADMINISTRATION EXTENDS SUCCESSFUL VIRTUAL CONFERENCE TO CONTINUE VALUABLE DIALOGUE ON INFORMATION SUPERHIGHWAY WASHINGTON, DC -- Due to strong interest, the National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA) is extending its virtual conference on universal service and open access to our nation's telecommunications networks until 12:00 midnight EST, Wednesday, November 23, 1994. As of 2:00 p.m. today, there had been nearly 6000 accesses to the world wide web server for the virtual conference. The conference listservs, which are on topics related to bringing the benefits of the information superhighway to all Americans, are averaging 400 subscribers per list. The conference had originally been scheduled to conclude tomorrow. "We are thrilled with the volume of traffic and quality of the dialogue on the listservs, and hope that the extension will give as many people as possible the opportunity to contribute to the electronic discussion," said Larry Irving, Assistant Secretary for Communications and Information and Administrator of NTIA. "Through the virtual conference, the Clinton Administration is demonstrating how our information infrastructure can be used to deliver social services and allow greater citizen participation in the development of government policies," said Irving. To view the conference or to get information on subscribing to a listserv, send an e-mail message to info@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov. If you would like to read the position papers of experts on the issue of universal service that were posted at the start of the conference and the responses that have been generated thus far, there are electronic archive files for each listserv available via gopher, www, or telnet access to iitf.doc.gov. The entire archive will be available electronically after the conference through the Clinton Administration's Information Infrastructure Task Force (IITF) at the same site. For more information on the conference, contact Paige Darden at 202-482-1551 (voice) or pdarden@ntia.doc.gov (e-mail). ### From az908@freenet.carleton.ca Fri Nov 18 01:22:31 1994 Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (az908@freenet.carleton.ca [134.117.1.25]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA27870; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 01:22:31 -0800 Received: (az908@localhost) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.6.9/8.6.4) id BAA18487; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 01:14:42 -0500 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 01:14:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199411180614.BAA18487@freenet.carleton.ca> From: az908@freenet.carleton.ca (Paul Holden) To: privacy@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov, avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Reply-To: az908@freenet.carleton.ca redefus@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov, standard@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov, ntia@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Digests? Cc: Reply-To: az908@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Why are all postings to this list always coming in the form of a "digest"? It seems to have started sometime yesterday, why, can anybody tell me? Thanks, -- Paul Holden "Float like a butterfly, az908@freenet.carleton.ca sting like a bee." From CarlPers@ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 18 02:13:51 1994 Received: from ix.ix.netcom.com (ix.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA01244 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 02:13:49 -0800 Received: from by ix.ix.netcom.com (8.6.9/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id XAA06085; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 23:05:48 -0800 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 23:05:48 -0800 Message-Id: <199411180705.XAA06085@ix.ix.netcom.com> From: CarlPers@ix.netcom.com (Carl Person) Subject: Fwd: MISC> NTIA virtual conference on IH (fwd) To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov subscribe Affordability and Availability Carl E. Person > > **************************************************************** > > REGISTRATION FORM > > > Contact Name: Carl E. Person > ________________________________________________ > > Organization: Law Offices of Carl E. Person > ________________________________________________ > > Address: 325 w. 45th St. - Suite 201 > ________________________________________________ > > City: New York > ________________________________________________ > State, Zip: NY 10036-3803 > ________________________________________________ > > Phone & Fax: tel: 212-307-4444 fax: 212-307-0247 > ________________________________________________ > > E-mail Address: carlpers@ix.netcom.com -- Carl E. Person, intellectual property attorney, 325 W 45 St NY NY 10036; tel: 212-307-4444; fax 212-307-0247. "waiting to communicate with persons having or seeking new ideas". From CarlPers@ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 18 02:22:22 1994 Received: from ix.ix.netcom.com (ix.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA01770 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 02:22:19 -0800 Received: from by ix.ix.netcom.com (8.6.9/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id XAA07170; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 23:14:18 -0800 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 23:14:18 -0800 Message-Id: <199411180714.XAA07170@ix.ix.netcom.com> From: CarlPers@ix.netcom.com (Carl Person) To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov > **************************************************************** > > REGISTRATION FORM > > > Contact Name: Carl E. Person > ________________________________________________ > > Organization: Law Offices of Carl E. Person > ________________________________________________ > > Address: 325 w. 45th St. - Suite 201 > ________________________________________________ > > City: New York > ________________________________________________ > State, Zip: NY 10036-3803 > ________________________________________________ > > Phone & Fax: tel: 212-307-4444 fax: 212-307-0247 > ________________________________________________ > > E-mail Address: carlpers@ix.netcom.com -- Carl E. Person, intellectual property attorney, 325 W 45 St NY NY 10036; tel: 212-307-4444; fax 212-307-0247. "waiting to communicate with persons having or seeking new ideas". From innd@virtconf.digex.net Fri Nov 18 02:31:24 1994 Received: (from news@localhost) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id CAA02309 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 02:31:24 -0800 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 02:31:24 -0800 From: innd@virtconf.digex.net Message-Id: <199411181031.CAA02309@virtconf.digex.net> Reply-To: innd@virtconf.digex.net To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: UseNet-News Newsgroups: alt.ntia.avail Path: virtconf!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!uhog.mit.edu!sgiblab!nbn!nic.scruz.net!cruzio!henro From: henro@cruzio.com Subject: Interactive Video Conference Reply-To: henro@cruzio.com Organization: Cruzio Community Networking System, Santa Cruz, CA Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 05:01:22 GMT Message-ID: Keywords: Sarajevo, Tokyo, Moscow, Paris, Santa Cruz Sender: henro@cruzio.com (Don Weiss) Lines: 53 Talk about <> -- I was browsing the web and found that this week, a lot of experts in the field are discussing what my NGO is doing. We are putting on an internation interactive video conference to Cyber-Liberate Sarajevo. Here's the short version of our press release. Any of you who are interested, please e-mail me at henro@cruzio.com or, by tomorrow, at our group's new domain info@plaza.org I suspect a lot of you reading this will be VERY interest in this application. UNESCO SANCTIONS <> OF SARAJEVO Santa Cruz, CA (November 17, 1994) -- UNESCO officials and citizens of Tokyo, Moscow, Paris and Santa Cruz will join together on Saturday, November 19, to demonstrate interactive video technology that organizers will use for the <> the end of its intellectual blockade. Speaking from Tokyo, Suada Kapic (SWA-da KAH-pich), Artistic Director of the Sarajevo Arts Festival and founder of the Museum of Survival in Sarajevo, will call for the establishment of an Interactive Plaza in Sarajevo linked with a network of similar plazas world-wide. Speaking from Paris, UNESCO Assistant Director-General Henrikas Yushkiavitchus will stress that he supports this <> project. The moderator of the session, Dr. Paul Lee, will speak from Santa Cruz with his colleage Prof. Paul Ricoeur, in Paris, on the theme of an <> They will challenge the international community to give an Interactive Plaza to Sarajevo. Joseph Goldin, the Russian visionary behind this project, will say that his Global Interactive Plaza Foundation will join with Mr. Yushkiavitchus and request that the United Nations contribute one percent of its peacekeeping military budget to establish Interactive Plazas in conflict areas worldwide. This will be in keeping with the UNESCO goal of moving from Peace Keeping to Peace Building. The forum will announce a New Year's Eve deadline for installation of the interactive plaza in Sarajevo. By linking cities on five continents with Sarajevo, New Year's Eve will become a truly global celebration of the Cyber-Liberation of the city under siege. Date: November 19, 1994 Time: 5:00 a.m. to 6:30 a.m. Pacific Standard Time. For more information, contact: Don Weiss, Executive Secretary, Global Interactive Plaza Foundation phone/fax 408-423-5006 From 74543.720@compuserve.com Fri Nov 18 02:44:41 1994 Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA03042 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 02:44:41 -0800 Received: from localhost by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.4/5.940406sam) id CAA08141; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 02:36:21 -0500 Date: 18 Nov 94 02:33:42 EST From: Stan Witnov <74543.720@compuserve.com> To: multiple recipients of avail list Subject: FOUR DAY CONFERENCE THOTS Message-ID: <941118073341_74543.720_EHH62-2@CompuServe.COM> Dear Conferees, After reviewing papers and comments for the past four days it is difficult for me to imagine any kind of consensus emerging from the varied positions--especially noteworthy from the negative side is the energy examining "who's ripping off who!" Why are so many participants against unleashing American business (AND it's stereotypical greed) in order to let the invisible hand lead us to the most efficient use of resources. I certainly trust that our government regulators and court system will move in at the appropriate time and correct some of the "wrongs" which are inevitable (whether we're under a government OR private enterprise umbrella). I believe our great advantage here is to let venture capital risk itself for a profit but in so doing create and market services which increase user knowledge, accessability, and the population of users. Instead of endangering the goverment with the burden of risk (and our own tax obligations) I believe we should cut-loose American companies onto a playing field and let THEM sell the consumer on the future he/she desires. Further, I believe that we may end-up belonging to particular nodes which may be a function of our geographic location: our nodes may cluster around high-end users (e.g., computer companies, universities, major hi-tech industiral areas). For example, I may be part of a node that represents the West Coast while a different node with compatible (but possibly different technology) interfaces from an electronic node based around the Washington DC corrider. How many of us are accessing this conference on identical computers/same software/similar hardware configurations? I suspect that were pretty heterogenous already. My suspician is that we'll move ahead into the information age with a continuous set of renovations and remodels with an occassional glimpse of self-discovery that brings us into accord only occasionally (e.g., ASCII and modem configurations). We certainly are blessed (as opposed to viewing ourselves as victims) with a plethora of operating systems that are clever, effecient, and cheered and booed by consumers who vote with their DOLLARS! Anyway, these are my four day thoughts. Best paper (and most practical perspective from my viewpoint has been Henry Huang (AVAIL:38). Thanx for listening--Stan Witnov From korhonen@tenet.edu Fri Nov 18 08:54:45 1994 Received: from Gayle-Gaston.tenet.edu (korhonen@Gayle-Gaston.tenet.edu [198.213.2.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA24629 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 08:54:44 -0800 Received: (from korhonen@localhost) by Gayle-Gaston.tenet.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id HAA28150; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 07:46:54 -0600 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 07:46:53 -0600 (CST) From: Marilyn Letitia Korhonen Subject: Re: Cheap Public Access To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov In-Reply-To: <9411172023.AA19431@slick.chage.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 17 Nov 1994, Carl Hage wrote: > >From: ab147@virgin.uvi.edu (Gary M. Goodlander) > >I want to see cheap public access to the Internet, and > >other informational services. > > I believe we can use the free market and competition to significantly > lower the cost to access the net and provide a wide variety of options. > There are a number of things that the government could do to enhance > the competition and available services which would cost very little. I live in rural Texas and work from home. My phone bill for Internet access is over $100 every month and moves toward $200 on a good month. Texas has TENET for educators and the Trans-Texas Video Network which links many higher education campuses by T1. However, I am seeing no action to serve people like me with toll-free service. Frankly, I may be the only person in my county that uses Internet. How do we convince the government that it is cost effective to provide toll-free service to me and others like me in remote areas? Marilyn Korhonen From korhonen@tenet.edu Fri Nov 18 08:57:02 1994 Received: from Gayle-Gaston.tenet.edu (korhonen@Gayle-Gaston.tenet.edu [198.213.2.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA24798 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 08:57:01 -0800 Received: (from korhonen@localhost) by Gayle-Gaston.tenet.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id HAA28431; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 07:49:06 -0600 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 07:49:04 -0600 (CST) From: Marilyn Letitia Korhonen Subject: Re: [AVAIL:98] Rural areas To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 17 Nov 1994, PEGGY S. OUTLAW (904)627-9651 wrote: > I am interested in knowing what this administration plans to do to help > rural areas get on the internet. In our rural county in north Florida, > most of our families are below the poverty level. The best way for our > citizens to have access to the information superhighway is through our > schools. We need help in obtaining the equipment -- telephones lines, > computers, modems. Are there grants out there which would help us with > obtaining the basics > The REA and the U.S. Department of Education both have grant programs to address these issues. They are much smaller than TIIAP, but a start. Marilyn Korhonen From korhonen@tenet.edu Fri Nov 18 09:00:25 1994 Received: from Gayle-Gaston.tenet.edu (korhonen@Gayle-Gaston.tenet.edu [198.213.2.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA25052 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 09:00:25 -0800 Received: (from korhonen@localhost) by Gayle-Gaston.tenet.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id HAA28968; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 07:52:34 -0600 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 07:52:32 -0600 (CST) From: Marilyn Letitia Korhonen Subject: Re: [AVAIL:100] Re: Rural areas To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov In-Reply-To: <199411180145.RAA08450@virtconf.digex.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 17 Nov 1994, Bob Summers wrote: > >I am interested in knowing what this administration plans to do to help > >rural areas get on the internet. > If the federal government really wants to do something, they will support > the rural areas by supplying internet hub access areas in libraries and > schools. I agree to the extent that schools and libraries will allow this. We do not have a library in my local phone exchange, so that wouldn't serve my area and many others. The schools would be an answer for some, but the school in my district is not interested, even if I'll write grants for them. They do not trust it, they can not see the usefulness in their day-to-day lives, and they are simply not interested. Marilyn Korhonen From sporing@cais.cais.com Fri Nov 18 09:07:36 1994 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA25538 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 09:07:36 -0800 Received: from cais2.cais.com (cais2.cais.com [199.0.216.200]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id IAA23467 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 08:59:40 -0500 Received: from localhost (sporing@localhost) by cais2.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) id JAA26088; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 09:01:10 -0500 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 09:01:10 -0500 (EST) From: Jsporing Subject: Re: Cheap Public Access To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov cc: Multiple recipients of list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > I live in rural Texas and work from home. My phone bill for Internet > access is over $100 every month and moves toward $200 on a good month. > Texas has TENET for educators and the Trans-Texas Video Network which > links many higher education campuses by T1. However, I am seeing no > action to serve people like me with toll-free service. Frankly, I may be > the only person in my county that uses Internet. > > How do we convince the government that it is cost effective to provide > toll-free service to me and others like me in remote areas? > > Marilyn Korhonen I believe that private access for users such as Marilyn will emerge. As the telecommunications markets expand, I assume that companies will, either voluntarily or through regulations, offer access to the I-way to less profitable areas, such as rural areas. This may be done in co-ops much the way that small local telephone companies operate. Or if the big boys want to play in that region, they will be able to supplement the expenses of the rural areas with revenues from the urban areas - like the old AT&T did with long distance and local service. John Sporing From korhonen@tenet.edu Fri Nov 18 09:11:58 1994 Received: from Gayle-Gaston.tenet.edu (korhonen@Gayle-Gaston.tenet.edu [198.213.2.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA25792 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 09:11:57 -0800 Received: (from korhonen@localhost) by Gayle-Gaston.tenet.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id IAA00584; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 08:04:05 -0600 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 08:04:02 -0600 (CST) From: Marilyn Letitia Korhonen Subject: Re: [AVAIL:112] Re: Cheap Public Access To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > How do we convince the government that it is cost effective to provide > > toll-free service to me and others like me in remote areas? > > I believe that private access for users such as Marilyn will emerge. As > the telecommunications markets expand, I assume that companies will, > either voluntarily or through regulations, offer access to the I-way to > less profitable areas, such as rural areas. > > John Sporing > Actually, I hear that the telcos are trying to the cost of one and two minute toll calls. They say they lose money when we dial up just to check mail or send a quick message and when we send brief faxes. Marilyn Korhonen From deering@odi.cwc.whecn.edu Fri Nov 18 11:44:41 1994 Received: from odi.cwc.whecn.edu (ODI.CWC.WHECN.EDU [137.85.50.56]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA06073 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 11:44:40 -0800 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 09:33:14 -700 (MST) From: Carol Deering To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: rural areas Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: deering@odi.cwc.whecn.edu I just wanted to mention the large Indian reservation which surrounds our town. A great many people who live there have no telephones and some even no TV. I have seen mention in this conference of other rural situations, but I wanted to be sure to include this type of rural instance. There is no library service to this area, either. From jose@radlab.ucsf.EDU Fri Nov 18 13:18:13 1994 Received: from radlab.ucsf.EDU (radlab.ucsf.EDU [128.218.12.4]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA12740 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 13:18:12 -0800 Received: from pompey.ucsf.edu by radlab.ucsf.EDU (4.1/GSC4.21) id AA18505; Fri, 18 Nov 94 10:09:26 PST Date: Fri, 18 Nov 94 10:09:26 PST From: jose@radlab.ucsf.EDU (Jose Morales) Message-Id: <9411181809.AA18505@radlab.ucsf.EDU> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: subscribe subscribe Jose Morales From patricem@cap.gwu.edu Fri Nov 18 14:07:04 1994 Received: from cap.gwu.edu (cap.gwu.edu [128.164.140.32]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA15736 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 14:07:04 -0800 Received: (from patricem@localhost) by cap.gwu.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA01147; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 13:59:28 -0500 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 13:57:18 -0500 (EST) From: Patrice McDermott Subject: Re: Error Condition Re: No messages To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 16 Nov 1994 avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov wrote: > patricem@cap.gwu.edu: You are not subscribed to avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov. > Your message is returned to you unprocessed. If you want to subscribe, > send mail to listserv@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov with the following request: > > subscribe AVAIL Your Name > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Other than a welcome message, I have received no messages or postings on > this topic conference. I cannot believe nothing is going on. Please clarify. > > Patrice McDermott > patricem@cap.gwu.edu > > Odd, then, that I received a message telling me that I was subscribed & welcoming me. Patrice McDermott patricem@cap.gwu.edu From innd@virtconf.digex.net Fri Nov 18 15:11:35 1994 Received: (from news@localhost) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id PAA21384 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 15:11:35 -0800 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 15:11:35 -0800 From: innd@virtconf.digex.net Message-Id: <199411182311.PAA21384@virtconf.digex.net> Reply-To: innd@virtconf.digex.net To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: UseNet-News Path: virtconf!miwok!nbn!nic.scruz.net!johnr.sj.scruznet.com!haggis From: haggis@netcom.com (John R. Haggis) Newsgroups: alt.ntia.avail Subject: U.S. OUT OF MY COMPUTER Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 11:20:01 UNDEFINED Organization: Millennium Research Lines: 32 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: johnr.sj.scruznet.com X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #1] I'm a little confused about this whole superhighway thing. I thought it was just political hot air from Dan Gore, I mean Al Quayle, I mean, well, you know who I mean. Why do we need the government to mess around in this at all? Seems to me that the underlying thread is to get something for nothing. Well, everything costs, and it costs big. If you get the government involved big time in funding, it'll just be another entitlement to get cut off when the political climate changes. Look at Welfare and Medicare now! Besides, there's no quicker way to utterly destroy the community spirit of the Internet than to get the government involved. Even quicker than AT&T and the other huge commercial concerns. If you're afraid of losing free and easy access, support your small-time access providers and your non-CIX providers. Bolster the system from the grass roots. Encourage providers to donate lines to libraries. There are so darn many providers now, if each donated one line you could have multiple terminals in every Bay Area libraries! Become a provider! Give service away! That's what we're doing here. Use the income from those who _can_ pay to redistribute some connectivity to those who can't very well. Come on, people, keep it human. Don't suck us into the political machine. The Internet is just another faceless medium for petty power in the eyes of politicians. - John R. Haggis (johnr@johnr.sf.scruznet.com) From innd@virtconf.digex.net Fri Nov 18 16:00:55 1994 Received: (from news@localhost) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id QAA25220 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 16:00:55 -0800 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 16:00:55 -0800 From: innd@virtconf.digex.net Message-Id: <199411190000.QAA25220@virtconf.digex.net> Reply-To: innd@virtconf.digex.net To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: UseNet-News Newsgroups: alt.ntia.avail Path: virtconf!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!bazyar From: bazyar@netcom.com (Jawaid Bazyar) Subject: Re: Need for Federal Oversight of Access and Availability Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <1994Nov15.002742.7646@virgin.uvi.edu> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 18:34:41 GMT Lines: 26 ab368@virgin.uvi.edu (Bruce Potter) writes: >To the NTIA, we ask careful attention to the equity issues of access, and >a federal guarantee of access and availability. Oh my, it looks like the Socialists have grabbed onto the Internet as their next great crusade. Well, Bruce, the Welfare State has destroyed America's once-great Cities, and now you're setting out to destroy one of the most important technologies of the 20th Century. Don't think for a minute we're going to let you get away with it this time. In case you haven't figured it out, a "federal guarantee of access" means only that there are some people who are going to be forced, at the point of a federal gun, to pay for your so-called "right" to Internet access. What you're saying is that you have a right to enslave someone. If you choose to live on an island in the middle of the ocean with a small population, you can expect to pay a lot for high-tech services. -- Jawaid Bazyar | Like UNIX? Like your Apple IIGS? Then ask Procyon, Inc. | me about GNO/ME for the Apple IIgs! bazyar@netcom.com | P.O Box 620334 --Apple II Forever!-- | Littleton, CO 80162-0334 (303) 781-3273 From jloh@futon.sfsu.edu Fri Nov 18 17:18:23 1994 Received: from futon.sfsu.edu (futon.sfsu.edu [130.212.2.65]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA00717 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 17:18:18 -0800 Received: by futon.sfsu.edu (NX5.67e/NX3.0M) id AA23009; Fri, 18 Nov 94 14:10:28 -0800 From: Jonathan Loh Message-Id: <9411182210.AA23009@futon.sfsu.edu> Subject: Re: [AVAIL:118] AVAIL digest 24 To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Fri, 18 Nov 94 14:10:27 PST In-Reply-To: <199411190058.QAA29218@virtconf.digex.net>; from "avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov" at Nov 18, 94 4:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL10] > > I'm a little confused about this whole superhighway thing. > > I thought it was just political hot air from Dan Gore, I mean Al Quayle, I > mean, well, you know who I mean. > > Why do we need the government to mess around in this at all? Seems to me that Why indeed? Guess who started this superhighway? It was the government. So in essence we are the intruders. > the underlying thread is to get something for nothing. Well, everything > costs, and it costs big. If you get the government involved big time in > funding, it'll just be another entitlement to get cut off when the political > climate changes. Look at Welfare and Medicare now! Well yes I agree with you everything does cost. It's just the cost of the Internet is hidden from you. Unless you're paing for it yourself. > > Become a provider! Give service away! That's what we're doing here. Use the > income from those who _can_ pay to redistribute some connectivity to those who > can't very well. > It's hard to start thinking in that mode unless you are guaranteed something in return say Tax breaks or something. > Come on, people, keep it human. Don't suck us into the political machine. > The Internet is just another faceless medium for petty power in the eyes of > politicians. > > - John R. Haggis (johnr@johnr.sf.scruznet.com) > -- Jonathan jloh@futon.sfsu.edu **** Please quote from this message when responding --- Thanks! From "SFPL::NTIA_PUB"@DRANET.DRA.COM Fri Nov 18 19:33:53 1994 Received: from DRANET.DRA.COM (dranet.dra.com [192.65.218.23]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA08966 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 19:33:52 -0800 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 18:24:27 -0600 (CST) From: San Francisco Public Libraray <"SFPL::NTIA_PUB"@DRANET.DRA.COM> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov X-Vmsmail-To: ADDRESS Message-Id: <941118182427.20216603@DRANET.DRA.COM> Subject: NTIA Public Comment I do volunteer work for the poor in the teaching of computer skills. with enough money, we can give access when we're open, but even with that, we have an upper limit on volunteers, etc. With the work that I have done teaching Internet, I suggest the following as a minimu step to conserve money, volunteer time and space. o Provide homeless shelters with online systems frozen into Netnews and email, or email and gopher. A 386 terminal running Linux, Xwindows and Netscape, and locked into a user group such as email and gopher, etc., would permit defining the loest level of involvement. People need communication to represent themselves, and email for that reason, as well as Netnews. From: glidedw@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu From chage@rahul.net Fri Nov 18 21:10:15 1994 Received: from tango.rahul.net (root@tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA14786 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 21:10:11 -0800 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA26657 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 18 Nov 1994 18:02:18 -0800 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA15254 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Fri, 18 Nov 1994 18:02:16 -0800 Received: by slick.chage.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19968; Fri, 18 Nov 94 15:27:05 PST Date: Fri, 18 Nov 94 15:27:05 PST From: chage@rahul.net (Carl Hage) Message-Id: <9411182327.AA19968@slick.chage.com> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: Resale Surcharges by backbone providers whitis@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU (Mark Whitis) writes: : I am disturbed by a practice common among internet backbone providers : at the national and regional level which creates an unnecessary : impediment to the creation of affordable internet service for : individuals and small businesses. One of the stated goals of recent : government actions to establish an information superhighway is to : make networking availible to individuals and small to medium sized : businesses; large corporations and universities can already afford : networks. Yes, I believe this is a very important problem which greatly restricts competition from small providers. Here in the bay area, there is one reseller (tlg.org) a co-op who in turn resells to other resellers, etc. TLG only had 1 major provider to choose from (sprint.net) as the others do not allow resale, and TLG pays substantially more (double?). The resale prices through TLG or thier resellers are half the usual competition. I believe that it would be in the best interest for the nation to find a way so the major backbone providers (e.g. customers of the government) do not restrict resale, or filter based on content. : The excuses offered: : - Resellers of bandwidth are likely to require more complicated : routing... Right, that is bogus. : - Resellers of bandwith are likely to utilize a greater percentage : of their bandwidth. The issue is that a customer who uses near 100% of the bandwidth during the day comsumes more resources than a typical customer, who might only use only 10%. Individuals, e.g. those with some future high speed connection, would like fast access but might only use .01% of the bandwidth. Currently, all these customer types pay the same rate, whether or not they are a large or small company, or a large or small reseller. The real solution is that the current system of flat rate based on the maximum transfer rate must be changed. If there were a modest usage fee (or the equivalent of a sliding scale based on utilization), then the backbone providers would not be as reluctant to prohibit resellers. Competition from resellers would also lower the prices from the major companies. In theory, they should have some economies of scale and could offer lower prices than a reseller in many cases. Normally, there is a major objection to adding usage fees. The problem is that the fees are high in comparison to the actual costs. A fair way to determine usage fees would be to use the incremental cost to expand the backbone capacity. You would pay a flat fee for the connection and customer service, and usage fees would only cover a share of the trunk lines to transport data and the routers that feed them. It would not be appropriate to increase use fees to pay for a share of the fixed costs (e.g. in PacBells rates, 50% of the fixed costs are paid by use fees) since that does discourage expanded use of the network. The T3 backbones cost about $1/Mb-mile/month, so a 1.5Mb cross country (3000miles) link at 100% use would cost about $4500/mo, which is higher than the fee charged by the provider. Since the typical user doesn't consume 100% of thier feed or have 100% of the traffic cross the country, the providers can charge less. A simple formula might be to assume use fees pay for expanded capacity at 50% use during peak periods (e.g. 8 hour weekday). That works out to be $83/GB for daytime transmission. It would be important to charge more for high priority (videophone) traffic than for file transfers, etc. which can operate in the background. As a reference point, the equivalent long distance telephone at 50% discount is $316/GB. From chage@rahul.net Fri Nov 18 21:10:19 1994 Received: from tango.rahul.net (root@tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA14792 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 1994 21:10:16 -0800 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA26663 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 18 Nov 1994 18:02:23 -0800 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA15268 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Fri, 18 Nov 1994 18:02:21 -0800 Received: by slick.chage.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19977; Fri, 18 Nov 94 15:48:22 PST Date: Fri, 18 Nov 94 15:48:22 PST From: chage@rahul.net (Carl Hage) Message-Id: <9411182348.AA19977@slick.chage.com> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: Cheap Public Access sporing@cais.cais.com (Jsporing) writes: : : > I live in rural Texas and work from home. My phone bill for Internet : > access is over $100 every month and moves toward $200 on a good month. : > Texas has TENET for educators and the Trans-Texas Video Network which : > links many higher education campuses by T1. However, I am seeing no : > action to serve people like me with toll-free service. Frankly, I may be : > the only person in my county that uses Internet. : > : > How do we convince the government that it is cost effective to provide : > toll-free service to me and others like me in remote areas? : > : > Marilyn Korhonen : : I believe that private access for users such as Marilyn will emerge. As : the telecommunications markets expand, I assume that companies will, : either voluntarily or through regulations, offer access to the I-way to : less profitable areas, such as rural areas. : : This may be done in co-ops much the way that small local telephone : companies operate. In order to aviod long distance charges, an internet provider needs a POP (bank of modems+router) in a local exchange, and then they would only provide access for thier own service. The (near term) solution is for your telco or even a co-op to put in a POP which could be shared by a number of different providers. It would be important to be able to access multiple services since not all users have the same needs, and competition will lower prices. A co-op might be able to install and operate a POP for less than a telco, but how do you organize a co-op if you think you are the only user? Perhaps you could convince your telco to include a flyer in thier mailings explaining the service and possible benefits, and ask for a reply by mail or phone. Do you think your telco would help you organize? Is a better solution just to require the telcos to install and operate POPs in sparsely populated areas that would not be cost effective for a private company located elsewhere to operate? From innd@virtconf.digex.net Sat Nov 19 01:11:39 1994 Received: (from news@localhost) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id BAA29187 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 01:11:39 -0800 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 01:11:39 -0800 From: innd@virtconf.digex.net Message-Id: <199411190911.BAA29187@virtconf.digex.net> Reply-To: innd@virtconf.digex.net To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: UseNet-News Path: virtconf!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!hudson.lm.com!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.columbia.edu!bonjour.cc.columbia.edu!rh120 From: rh120@bonjour.cc.columbia.edu (Rhonda Hauben) Newsgroups: alt.ntia.avail Subject: Re: Thanks Al.... Date: 16 Nov 1994 20:53:30 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 41 Message-ID: <3adrga$h33@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: bonjour-cddi.cc.columbia.edu In article , Don Evans wrote: >Has anyone stopped to think just how much we owe to Al Gore and the >current administration. Where are we today? The development of the Global Computer Network that makes it possible to post to Usenet News and this newsgroup today is the result of work by many computer pioneers for more than 25 years -- it isn't due to Al Gore. It would be good if the current adminstration in Washington were interested in knowing something of that history so it could be built upon - instead of going in an entirely different direction which can only backtrack on the gains that have been made thus far. But it would seem that the people concerned with going forward would benefit from knowing that history despite the reluctance of those in the current administration to build on the past. > >In 1989, then Senator Gore introduced NREN Legislation, setting the stage >for the environment in which we now find ourselves. The environment is one of a plenthora of new books in the bookstores on how "to make your fortune" off of the Net - and no concern either in Washington or in the U.S. publishing world with education as to what has been built so the next step can be made. Ronda Hauben rh120@columbia.edu or ronda@panix.com -- see my .plan for the www location of "The Netizens and the Wonderful World of the Net: An Anthology of Articles on the History and Impact of the Net" and for an outline of the current paper I am working on. From saholmes@ramp.com Sat Nov 19 02:32:53 1994 Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA04161 for ; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 02:32:52 -0800 Received: from glock.ramp.com by relay2.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQxqqv23115; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 02:24:59 -0500 Received: (from saholmes@localhost) by glock.ramp.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id HAA19941; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 07:24:25 GMT Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 07:24:25 GMT From: Steve Holmes Message-Id: <199411190724.HAA19941@glock.ramp.com> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov In-reply-to: <199411190000.QAA25220@virtconf.digex.net> (innd@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov) Subject: Re: [AVAIL:118] UseNet-News Reply-to: saholmes@ramp.com > Oh my, it looks like the Socialists have grabbed onto the Internet >as their next great crusade. Well, Bruce, the Welfare State has >destroyed America's once-great Cities, and now you're setting >out to destroy one of the most important technologies of the 20th >Century. > > Don't think for a minute we're going to let you get away with it this time. > > In case you haven't figured it out, a "federal guarantee of access" >means only that there are some people who are going to be forced, at >the point of a federal gun, to pay for your so-called "right" to >Internet access. What you're saying is that you have a right to >enslave someone. > > If you choose to live on an island in the middle of the ocean with a >small population, you can expect to pay a lot for high-tech services. Well, I don't aggree with the concept of "guarenteeing access to the internet to every man, woman, and child, but I do think the internet should be kept affordable somehow. For example, standards like formats and protocoles should be kept open to the public - no secret/proprietary stuff around here. I like the idea of incentives - possible tax breaks maybe? The one thing which is singularly responsible for the internet being more easily accessable and affordable is the springing up of little up-start companies providing internet service to individuals at a fairly reasonable flat monthly rate (something in the range of $15 to $25). I suppose that this trend is largely confined to large metropoliten areas where the competition is greatest. Like you said, about the island in the middle ocean, rural areas are also subject to this problem; they do not injoy the affordable rates that we in the cities have. It's the old question, "How can we get a good economy of scale and volume to an area with so few people?" Actually, up till now, the government has had some fairly large stakes in the internet left over from the old ARPAnet days; I just read recently, that the government was "privatizing" the net in that the national science foundation switch was sold to Sprint and that Sprint was taking over that operation. Holmes From vae@motiv.cogsci.msu.su Sat Nov 19 06:23:04 1994 Received: from telion.radio-msu.net (telion.radio-msu.net [193.124.134.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA17286; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 06:22:47 -0800 Received: from npimsu.npi.msu.su (npimsu.npi.msu.su [158.250.2.1]) by telion.radio-msu.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA01036; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 14:14:46 +0300 Received: from motiv.UUCP by npimsu.npi.msu.su with UUCP id AA16064 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4); Sat, 19 Nov 1994 14:15:17 +0300 Received: by motiv.cogsci.msu.su (UUPC/@ v5.00, 25Nov92); Fri, 18 Nov 1994 19:34:42 -0800 To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Cc: redefus@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov References: <199411181124.DAA05983@virtconf.digex.net> Message-Id: Organization: Moscow State University, Psychology Dep. From: Alexander Voiskounsky Date: Fri, 18 Nov 94 19:34:42 -0800 X-Mailer: BML [MS/DOS Beauty Mail v.1.36] Return-Receipt-To: vae@motiv.cogsci.msu.su Subject: Re: [AVAIL & REDEFUS] Lines: 25 Hi, netters: I was rather shortminded to subscribe to AVAIL & REDEFUS. I was thinking I can save time to read non-numerous messages. I'm glad I'm wrong. I can't follow the massive traffic of discussions. Sometimes my English is too poor to grasp the essense, sometimes I don't know the realities, legislature, etc. Some themes I'm greatly pleased with. Say, with the ExceLink short description by Alex Rapisanda. I agree gladly with Larry Irving - thrilled with the volume of traffic & quality of discussions. I am, too. Perhaps I'll find more time later to read the messages more attentively. I shall not unsubscribe, though. The people in the 2nd & 3rd worlds are just now trying to find our own ways to use the Internet facilities & pleasures. I am interested in investigation of these ways, in teaching & helping them in this kind of activity. Besides, my group is working on bibliographic database construction and letting the remote access to it. For several days only we got an IP access to the WWW, we are not experienced yet to access. So I use ordinary e-mail. Good luck to all subscribers. I wish you success. Alexander From innd@virtconf.digex.net Sat Nov 19 06:56:08 1994 Received: (from news@localhost) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id GAA19447 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 06:56:08 -0800 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 06:56:08 -0800 From: innd@virtconf.digex.net Message-Id: <199411191456.GAA19447@virtconf.digex.net> Reply-To: innd@virtconf.digex.net To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: UseNet-News Newsgroups: alt.ntia.avail Path: virtconf!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!murdoch!Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU!jdyer From: jdyer@Hopper.ITC.Virginia.EDU (Jamie Dyer) Subject: Internet Broadcasting Corp Message-ID: Sender: usenet@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU Organization: University of Virginia X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 11:25:00 GMT Lines: 25 As a newcomer to the net, I don't feel I have much relevant to say. All this chatter about Info Superhiways strikes me as so much political doubletalk. The hiway exists. But to drive on the damn thing you need a car. Computers(macs or pcs, etc) are not items that someone making 6 or 7 dollars an hour can easily obtain. So public access at libraries and schools seems to be the answer. And folks(a lot of them, anyway) seem to expect the feds to pay for it. I don't trust that the feds will be able to fork over my Social Security in 35 years, why should we trust them to educate our kids to become familiar with and maintain future tech? This problem needs to solved on a local level. Pay the feds to maintain the net(through taxes). At the local level, beg...steal...scrape to get the equipment and $$ to get access. The best thing about this technology is the decentralization of info/communication. Why look to the Federal Govt. to help us with an issue regarding decentralizing? The day of the Feds is waning. We have to learn to be more self-sufficient at the local level. Information Superhiway, my ear. Information Stripmall, if we don't watch it. -- "Go ahead. Toin the dump over. I won't squawk." _Bogie From ac174@freenet.carleton.ca Sat Nov 19 10:01:14 1994 Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (ac174@freenet.carleton.ca [134.117.1.25]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA29599 for ; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 10:01:14 -0800 Received: (ac174@localhost) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.6.9/8.6.4) id JAA24822; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 09:53:26 -0500 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 09:53:26 -0500 Message-Id: <199411191453.JAA24822@freenet.carleton.ca> From: ac174@freenet.carleton.ca (Rosaleen Dickson) To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Reply-To: ac174@freenet.carleton.ca Unsubscribe Rosaleen Dickson -- ____________________________________________________________________________ Rosaleen Dickson ac174@freenet.carleton.ca Rosaleen@resudox.net Director, National Capital Freenet Moderator of NCF Announce and Seniors ---------------------------------------------------------------------------~ From brentw@freenet.scri.fsu.edu Sat Nov 19 11:08:24 1994 Received: from freenet3.scri.fsu.edu (freenet3.scri.fsu.edu [144.174.128.57]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA04164 for ; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 11:08:24 -0800 Received: by freenet3.scri.fsu.edu id AA19396 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Sat, 19 Nov 1994 11:00:24 -0500 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 11:00:24 -0500 (EST) From: Brent Wall To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII An early post to this group from an individual from the Anneberg NPR group suggested that, as a beginning, universal access, as defined from the consumer's and not the supplier's viewpoint, merely entails, at present, a phone line to every home. The implicit definition of availability in the Leon County library Tallahassee Fre-Net grants adds one important dimension on top of the phone line notion. It is the expansion to as many homes as possible of the communication and educational benefits of a community net over the phone lines. Using a lowest common denominator approach, the local system is 286 accessable and is a menu driven interface. We will be proposing shortly to the Leon County Board of County Commissioners an approach stolen from LINCT to reassign recycled computers to needy families who have received free training that is already offered by the library. This takes these families from the point of having the opportunity to have access to having it. Accordingly, universal access is, here at least,: (1) a phone line, (2) a freenet that provides a base level of service (as most do)--commuication services (email, usenet), education services (gopher, card catalogue), and the like, and (3) an agressive program to distribute to the community at need recycled computers with training. Brent Wall Leon County Free-Net Project From tdun@k12.ucs.umass.edu Sat Nov 19 11:58:11 1994 Received: from k12.ucs.umass.edu (k12.ucs.umass.edu [128.119.166.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA07005 for ; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 11:58:10 -0800 Received: (tdun@localhost) by k12.ucs.umass.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.4) id LAA12443; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 11:45:08 -0500 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 11:45:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199411191645.LAA12443@k12.ucs.umass.edu> From: tdun@k12.ucs.umass.edu (Terry Dun (FCTS)) To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Bye Reply-To: tdun@k12.ucs.umass.edu unsubscribe Terry Dun -- ============================================================================ Angus "Terry" Dun Voice: (413) 863-9561 Ext 60 Technical Director, UMassK12 E-Mail: tdun@k12.ucs.umass.edu Computer Technology Instructor Franklin County Technical School From crb@well.sf.ca.us Sat Nov 19 12:38:10 1994 Received: from well.sf.ca.us (crb@well.sf.ca.us [198.93.4.10]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA09469 for ; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 12:38:09 -0800 Received: (from crb@localhost) by well.sf.ca.us (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA19829 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 09:30:16 -0800 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 09:30:16 -0800 From: Colette Brooks Message-Id: <199411191730.JAA19829@well.sf.ca.us> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: my 2$ I've been lurking for a few days now and wish to comment on a couple of remarks. Thanks first to those who have  made such informative contributions... Mr. Witnov writes: >Why are so many participants against unleashing American business (and its stereotypical greed) in order to let the invisible hand lead us to the most efficient use of resources? Many of us are skeptical of that invisible hand. There are some areas here in Brooklyn where residents have no access to ATMs because banks have closed branches (efficient use of resources, perhaps, but for whom?) Would you wish to live in a neighborhood with no banking services? If access to ATMS is limited, who can pretend that access to more costly technologies won't also be limited? Mr. Bazyar writes: >If you choose to live on an island in the middle of the ocean with a small population, you can expect to pay a lot for high-tech services. Well, lots of us live on those islands, some of them in our largest urban areas. And you don't have to be a Socialist to say so. Much of our discussion this week has been devoted not to costs per se but to the possible creation of new profit centers (probably by those busy invisible hands). And many of us feel that the Infobahn is not primarily a private preserve but a national/world resource which should be extended to all, for reasons already explored in other posts this week. My question: can this conference be extended in some other arena? Perhaps as a newsgroup? It would be most unfortunate to lose contact; w [ communication is the best defense against isolation    From RICKYROD@aol.com Sat Nov 19 13:36:01 1994 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA12769 for ; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 13:36:00 -0800 From: RICKYROD@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA19808; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 13:27:41 -0500 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 13:27:41 -0500 Message-Id: <941119132737_2948187@aol.com> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: [AVAIL:124] Re: UseNet-News >> Oh my, it looks like the Socialists have grabbed onto the Internet >>as their next great crusade. Well, Bruce, the Welfare State has >>destroyed America's once-great Cities, and now you're setting >>out to destroy one of the most important technologies of the 20th >>Century. > >> Don't think for a minute we're going to let you get away with it this time. > >> In case you haven't figured it out, a "federal guarantee of access" >>means only that there are some people who are going to be forced, at >>the point of a federal gun, to pay for your so-called "right" to >>Internet access. What you're saying is that you have a right to >>enslave someone. > >> If you choose to live on an island in the middle of the ocean with a >>small population, you can expect to pay a lot for high-tech services. >Well, I don't aggree with the concept of "guarenteeing access >to the >internet to every man, woman, and child, but I do think the internet >should be kept affordable somehow. For example, standards like >formats and protocoles should be kept open to the public - no >secret/proprietary stuff around here. I like the idea of >incentives - >possible tax breaks maybe? The one thing which is singularly >responsible for the internet being more easily accessable and >affordable is the springing up of little up-start companies >providing >internet service to individuals at a fairly reasonable flat >monthly >rate (something in the range of $15 to $25). I suppose that >this >trend is largely confined to large metropoliten areas where >the >competition is greatest. >Like you said, about the island in the middle ocean, rural areas are >also subject to this problem; they do not injoy the affordable rates >that we in the cities have. It's the old question, "How can we get a >good economy of scale and volume to an area with so few people?" >Actually, up till now, the government has had some fairly large stakes >in the internet left over from the old ARPAnet days; I just read >recently, that the government was "privatizing" the net in that the >national science foundation switch was sold to Sprint and that Sprint >was taking over that operation. > Holmes Guaranteed access is another double edged sword. The feds might just do well at this relative to other ventures they have undertaken. The main reason for this is that they have an infrastructure in existance today and a wealth of knowledge to draw on. I can tell you though from living in the Washington D.C. area all my life, as a government contractor and taxpayer, this desire for "universal access" is in fact in reality another attempt at federal government expansion. A bureaucrat in a particular area of the government lives to expand funding oppotunities and keep funding coming in. The universal access area is real funding opportunity for Federal Government to expand budgets or keep them where they are. This would create growth in many federal agencies in the guise of following a federal mandate and wind up costing everyone more, and would also allow for Federal intrusion to enforce the law down to the local level. The information superhighway access seems to be fairly grass roots oriented now and if there was enough of a public outcry for univeral access, then the question should be addressed. But even if there was an outcry, why should the Federal Government address this question or attempt to provide access? Is there a desire to make public access to information services equal? Technology may someday make this happen but it will be because of the open nature of the growth of the economy and consumer demand in the area of information technology. If the Feds intrude into this fertile greenhouse of growth to demand universal access then this growth will be uprooted and changed. There is no place in a Democratic government for trying to create public demand for access to services. Let the economy work its magic and let individuals in rural areas or those who cannot get access figure out the solutions to this problem (if there really is one) by themselves through individual initiative. Let the private sector economy provide solutions. Ricky From advertise@interact.us.com Sat Nov 19 13:50:40 1994 Received: from tango.rahul.net (root@tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA13552 for ; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 13:50:38 -0800 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA18761 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 19 Nov 1994 10:42:45 -0800 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA16693 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Sat, 19 Nov 1994 10:42:44 -0800 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 10:42:43 -0800 (PST) From: Saundra Knowles Subject: Virtual Valley Universal Access To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Virtual Valley Community Network (VVCN) is a newly launched San Jose, California enterprise providing universal access/free online time to virtually everyone with a PC or Mac, standard communications software and a basic modem. VVCN features a whimsical graphical interface that is very helpful to novice users. Launched on October, the Virtual Valley Community Network links citizens, schools, government and business. Virtual Valley is a place for people to easily participate in the exchange of neighborly messages, ideas and information. It is a model community information service that offers electronic communication with elected public officials, provides outreach and phone numbers for national and local coalitions, organizations and agencies, public meeting agendas and minutes. It offers free postings for community organizations (i.e. foodbanks, emergency housing, etc.) and conferences for schools, universities and associations. Virtual Valley has numeous local newspapers online and offers Business, Arts, Entertainment and Dining information, calenders of events and classified advertising. Virtual Valley provides local "conference" areas and "chat" rooms of interest to a wide variety of diverse groups in the Greater South Bay Area. 25 min. of online time, per day, 24 hrs/day, every day of the year, is free. VV also offers a very affordable $45.00/yr membership that includes access to the Internet, numerous Internet Usenet groups and conferences as well as global email and other services. Saundra Knowles Information Specialist saund@interact.us.com voice:408-356-5303 From advertise@interact.us.com Sat Nov 19 14:08:24 1994 Received: from tango.rahul.net (root@tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA14565 for ; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 14:08:23 -0800 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA19202 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 19 Nov 1994 11:00:31 -0800 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA18163 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Sat, 19 Nov 1994 11:00:30 -0800 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 11:00:29 -0800 (PST) From: Saundra Knowles Subject: Virtual Valley Universal Access To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Virtual Valley Community Network (VVCN) is a newly launched San Jose, California enterprise providing universal access/free online time to virtually everyone with a PC or Mac, standard communications software and a basic modem. VVCN features a whimsical graphical interface that is very helpful to novice users. Launched on October 26th, the Virtual Valley Community Network links citizens, schools, government and business. Virtual Valley is a place for people to easily participate in the exchange of neighborly messages, ideas and information. It is a model community information service that offers electronic communication with elected public officials, provides outreach and phone numbers for national and local coalitions, organizations and agencies, public meeting agendas and minutes. It offers free postings for community organizations (i.e. foodbanks, emergency housing, etc.) and conferences for schools, universities and associations. Virtual Valley has numerous local newspapers online and offers Business, Arts, Entertainment and Dining information, calenders of events and classified advertising. Virtual Valley provides local "conference" areas and "chat" rooms of interest to a wide variety of diverse groups in the Greater South Bay Area. 25 min. of online time, per day, 24 hrs/day, every day of the year, is free. VV also offers a very affordable $45.00/yr membership that includes access to the Internet, numerous Internet Usenet groups and conferences as well as global email and other services. Saundra Knowles Information Specialist saund@interact.us.com voice:408-356-5303 From <@UTARLVM1.UTA.EDU:VANBROCKLIN@library.uta.edu> Sat Nov 19 15:58:48 1994 Received: from UTARLVM1.UTA.EDU (utarlvm1.uta.edu [129.107.1.6]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA21845 for ; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 15:58:47 -0800 Received: from libmail.uta.edu by UTARLVM1.UTA.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Sat, 19 Nov 94 14:50:47 CST Received: From CENLIB/WORKQUEUE by libmail.uta.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.941119145329.416; 19 Nov 94 14:54:20 +0500 Message-ID: From: "Jackie Van Brocklin" To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 14:53:20 CST Subject: info participation Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Is it too late to participate in this program? I didn't know if this week's national program included Saturdays..... Jackie VanBrocklin vanbrocklin@library.uta.edu From sylviac@netcom.com Sat Nov 19 16:05:25 1994 Received: from netcom11.netcom.com (sylviac@netcom11.netcom.com [192.100.81.121]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA22264; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 16:05:24 -0800 Received: by netcom11.netcom.com (8.6.9/Netcom) id MAA19694; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 12:57:53 -0800 From: sylviac@netcom.com (Sylvia Caras) Message-Id: <199411192057.MAA19694@netcom11.netcom.com> Subject: Attention List Owner To: opnacces@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 12:57:52 -0800 (PST) Cc: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov In-Reply-To: <199411190912.BAA29253@virtconf.digex.net> from "opnacces@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov" at Nov 19, 94 01:12:05 am Organization: Mood Matters X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 536 As a last resort I am posting this to the list. The ways I know to reach an administrator are bouncing: listname-owner and listname-request and root. I do not want to receive this digest format. I am unable to scan my mail. All the subject lines have been obscured. I am forced to actually see each post instead of skimming subjects. Actually, so far I am just deleting everything. Please reset me to the way I originally subscribed so that I receive postings from participants in a normal way with the posters subject line. From innd@virtconf.digex.net Sat Nov 19 18:00:46 1994 Received: (from news@localhost) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id SAA29801 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 18:00:46 -0800 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 18:00:46 -0800 From: innd@virtconf.digex.net Message-Id: <199411200200.SAA29801@virtconf.digex.net> Reply-To: innd@virtconf.digex.net To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: UseNet-News Path: virtconf!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!uhog.mit.edu!sgiblab!nbn!nic.scruz.net!boing.resort.com!banshee From: banshee@boing.resort.com (John Vinopal) Newsgroups: alt.ntia.avail Subject: Re: U.S. OUT OF MY COMPUTER Date: 19 Nov 1994 22:24:36 GMT Organization: scruz-net Lines: 10 Message-ID: <3altv4$ltg@nic.scruz.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: resort.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #0 (NOV) The kind of thing the net doesn't need: Pac BEll granting 500K to Barrnet to figure out how to sell ISDN to the masses. -- The Wailer at the Gates of Dawn | banshee@resort.com | Just who ARE you calling a FROOFROO Head? | | DoD#0667 "Just a friend of the beast." | http://resort.com/~banshee/ | 2,3,5,7,13,17,19,31,61,89,107,127,521,607....| | From edb1@Ra.MsState.Edu Sat Nov 19 23:17:18 1994 Received: from Tut.MsState.Edu (root@Tut.MsState.Edu [130.18.80.36]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA18602 for ; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 23:17:16 -0800 Received: from Isis.MsState.Edu (edb1@Isis.MsState.Edu [130.18.80.11]); by Tut.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.6.9/6.5m-FWP); id WAA15400; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 22:09:26 -0600 Received: (edb1@localhost); by Isis.MsState.Edu (8.6.8.1/6.0c-FWP); id WAA13523; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 22:09:23 -0600 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 22:09:22 -0600 (CST) From: Ellen Davis Burnham X-Sender: edb1@Isis.MsState.Edu To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: [AVAIL:124] AVAIL digest 29 In-Reply-To: <199411191113.DAA06817@virtconf.digex.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------------------------------------------------------------------------~~ Ellen Davis Burnham INTERNET: edb1.@ra.msstate.edu Rt. 2 Box 63A HOME NUMBER: 601-447-3463 Okolona, MS 38860 +++++LIVE LONG & PROSPER (YA'LL)++++ {Graduate Student at MSU} ---------------------------------------------------------------------------~~ On Sat, 19 Nov 1994 avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov wrote: > AVAIL Digest 29 > > Topics covered in this issue include: > > 1) Re: [AVAIL:118] UseNet-News > by Steve Holmes > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 07:24:25 GMT > From: Steve Holmes > To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov > Subject: Re: [AVAIL:118] UseNet-News > Message-ID: <199411190724.HAA19941@glock.ramp.com> > > Well, I don't aggree with the concept of "guarenteeing access to the > internet to every man, woman, and child, This whole segment of the conference is about "Availability and Affordability" to all NOT just some that live in a largely populated area. People in Mississippi NEED the Internet just like everyone, probably more so than people who live in large areas with ready access to libraries or any form of research. Should we teach just **SOME** of our children to read, maybe just a few should learn Algebra, and heaven knows no one needs to know grammar rules. We can't pick and choose who is allowed access we live in a democratic society that says everyone is equal and should receive equal access to schooling among other inalienable rights. The rural area should be addressed first because we have such a hard time to find access (affordable access). If you could just go into a school one day and help students who are struggling to find the needed 12 sources for a research paper, students who know what they need is out there SOMEWHERE if only they had access to it. YES, WE MUST PROVIDE INTERNET ACCESS TO **EVERYONE**, not just to those who are easy to put on-line. I always tell my students to do the hard part of the test first and the rest will be a breeze. Vice-President Al Gore knows this, he's from just above us (MS) and President Clinton lives next to us. Yes we have some large cities but the majority of Southern people live in what city people term as "rural" areas. Just because we chose to live where things are slower and our children safer does not mean we want less schooling or less technology. We actually need more. > affordable is the springing up of little up-start companies providing > internet service to individuals at a fairly reasonable flat monthly > rate (something in the range of $15 to $25). I suppose that this > trend is largely confined to large metropoliten areas where the > competition is greatest. > Like you said, about the island in the middle ocean, rural areas are > also subject to this problem; they do not injoy the affordable rates > that we in the cities have. It's the old question, "How can we get a > good economy of scale and volume to an area with so few people?" > Holmes The competition may be greater in larger cities BUT the need is not. I don't mean to berate anyone but if you could only see first hand the great need in our schools you would understand. I teach in a school that has only 3700 books total in the library. Our situation is extreme because the school burned a couple of years ago. I try to help the students by hunting for needed items on the Internet. Until I began teaching there this year *ONLY* one student knew about the Superhighway. My third grade daughter, Holladay, knew more than these high school students! She has explained e-mail to her classmates because when the *Weekly Reader* mentioned the subject no one including the teacher knew what they were discussing. I'm proud of Holladay and my other children that do know of this great emerging technology but what about the children who have parents that have never heard of the Internet either. We have to start somewhere and I believe the population of America as a whole is as good a place to begin as any. "Ellen" (I'm through preaching, sorry!) From blarkin@cpcug.org Sat Nov 19 23:22:24 1994 Received: from cpcug.org (cpcug.org [164.109.15.31]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA19094 for ; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 23:22:24 -0800 Received: by cpcug.org id AA29346 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Sat, 19 Nov 1994 23:14:34 -0500 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 23:14:33 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Larkin To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: [AVAIL:113] AVAIL digest 21 In-Reply-To: <199411181856.KAA02263@virtconf.digex.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There have been many eloquent and passionate opinions expressed here regarding the potential role of public libraries and schools in providing access to the Internet. One major difficulty is that the hours during which such institutions are available to the public are precisely those hours when the net is already busiest. Imagine 30,000,000 more daily users during peak hours! From mkessel@world.std.com Sun Nov 20 00:41:33 1994 Received: from europe.std.com (root@europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA23760 for ; Sun, 20 Nov 1994 00:41:33 -0800 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA29457; Sun, 20 Nov 1994 00:33:43 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28596; Sun, 20 Nov 1994 00:33:43 -0500 Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 00:33:43 -0500 From: mkessel@world.std.com (Martin Kessel) Message-Id: <199411200533.AA28596@world.std.com> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: Universal access On Thu, 17 Nov 94 Chris Silker wrote: > I think this conference was accessible to more than just "elite > technocrats." I, for instance, am a graduate student at the U of MN. I > have access because everyone who attends the University has access, and > can apply their access via numerous computer labs that are open to all > students. I hate to disillusion you, but the university community is among the technological elite. Until recently university faculty and students were the only ones with access to the Internet, and are still the only ones with free access. Moreover, the 20 percent of American adults who are college graduates earn 67 percent more than high schools graduates. Because of their income and their academic experience, they are far more likely to own computers and to participate in the Internet. Obviously, the vast majority of us participating in this conference fall into this category. Will the rest of the population remain behind? The biggest issue is education. A basic part of every public school curriculum must include computer literacy, and this must include how to access online information. Second the information must be made easier to find. Minitel has been raised in this discussion. When I was in Paris, I found a public Minitel terminal and, even with poor understanding of French, was able to obtain a telephone number I wanted instantly. And this was five years ago -- four years before I even knew about the Internet. Basic rates must be kept low. Currently Boston residents can obtain basic Internet access for a very reasonable $5 per month. However, phone rates were once this low also. Under the buzzword of "competition," phone rates were lowered for large corporate users and long distance customers, while rising substantially for basic local service. (I can't find actual records, but I recall that in the early '80s the lowest cost phone service was well under $5 vs. $10.92 today.) If the marketplace alone prevails, then the Information Infrastructure will also cater itself exclusively to large corporations and well-to-do households. Finally, for those who do not have computers or even telephones, there must be publicly accessible sites in libraries and other community sites. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin Kessel mkessel@world.std.com 34 Cottonwood Road Wellesley MA 02181 From innd@virtconf.digex.net Sun Nov 20 11:16:56 1994 Received: (from news@localhost) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id LAA29589 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Sun, 20 Nov 1994 11:16:56 -0800 Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 11:16:56 -0800 From: innd@virtconf.digex.net Message-Id: <199411201916.LAA29589@virtconf.digex.net> Reply-To: innd@virtconf.digex.net To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: UseNet-News Newsgroups: alt.ntia.avail,alt.config,alt.usenet.kooks Path: virtconf!agate!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!uhog.mit.edu!news.kei.com!ub!acsu.buffalo.edu!bcohen From: bcohen@cs.buffalo.edu (Bram Cohen) Subject: Re: UseNet-News Message-ID: Sender: nntp@acsu.buffalo.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: gagarin.cs.buffalo.edu Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo/Computer Science References: <199411181031.CAA02309@virtconf.digex.net> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 16:07:02 GMT Lines: 73 This is the exact article - a repost of a previous article, complete with header, and nothing new added. Someone could definitely use a clue. In article <199411181031.CAA02309@virtconf.digex.net>, wrote: >Newsgroups: alt.ntia.avail >Path: virtconf!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!uhog.mit.edu!sgiblab!nbn!nic.scruz.net!cruzio!henro >From: henro@cruzio.com >Subject: Interactive Video Conference >Reply-To: henro@cruzio.com >Organization: Cruzio Community Networking System, Santa Cruz, CA >Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 05:01:22 GMT >Message-ID: >Keywords: Sarajevo, Tokyo, Moscow, Paris, Santa Cruz >Sender: henro@cruzio.com (Don Weiss) >Lines: 53 > > >Talk about <> -- I was browsing the web and found >that this week, a lot of experts in the field are discussing >what my NGO is doing. We are putting on an internation interactive >video conference to Cyber-Liberate Sarajevo. Here's the short >version of our press release. Any of you who are interested, >please e-mail me at henro@cruzio.com or, by tomorrow, at our >group's new domain info@plaza.org I suspect a lot of you >reading this will be VERY interest in this application. > >UNESCO SANCTIONS <> OF SARAJEVO >Santa Cruz, CA (November 17, 1994) -- UNESCO officials and citizens >of Tokyo, Moscow, Paris and Santa Cruz will join together on >Saturday, November 19, to demonstrate interactive video technology >that organizers will use for the <> the >end of its intellectual blockade. > >Speaking from Tokyo, Suada Kapic (SWA-da KAH-pich), Artistic >Director of the Sarajevo Arts Festival and founder of the Museum >of Survival in Sarajevo, will call for the establishment of an >Interactive Plaza in Sarajevo linked with a network of similar >plazas world-wide. > >Speaking from Paris, UNESCO Assistant Director-General Henrikas >Yushkiavitchus will stress that he supports this <> >project. > >The moderator of the session, Dr. Paul Lee, will speak from Santa >Cruz with his colleage Prof. Paul Ricoeur, in Paris, on the theme >of an <> They will challenge the international >community to give an Interactive Plaza to Sarajevo. > >Joseph Goldin, the Russian visionary behind this project, will >say that his Global Interactive Plaza Foundation will join with >Mr. Yushkiavitchus and request that the United Nations contribute >one percent of its peacekeeping military budget to establish >Interactive Plazas in conflict areas worldwide. This will be >in keeping with the UNESCO goal of moving from Peace Keeping >to Peace Building. > >The forum will announce a New Year's Eve deadline for installation >of the interactive plaza in Sarajevo. By linking cities on five >continents with Sarajevo, New Year's Eve will become a truly >global celebration of the Cyber-Liberation of the city under >siege. > > >Date: November 19, 1994 >Time: 5:00 a.m. to 6:30 a.m. Pacific Standard Time. > >For more information, contact: >Don Weiss, Executive Secretary, Global Interactive Plaza Foundation >phone/fax 408-423-5006 From LucyCo@aol.com Sun Nov 20 15:18:22 1994 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA13279 for ; Sun, 20 Nov 1994 15:18:22 -0800 From: LucyCo@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA26126; Sun, 20 Nov 1994 15:09:31 -0500 Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 15:09:31 -0500 Message-Id: <941120150557_3543309@aol.com> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Cc: edb@ra.msstate.edu Subject: Re: [AVAIL:137] AVAIL digest 37 Hearing the real-life experiences of people like Ellen Davis Burnham, who wrote of introducing school children in rural Mississippi to the Internet -- is one of the best aspects of this conference. Helps ward off the tendency to discuss concepts such as "availability" as though they were theoretical only. Keep up the good work, Ellen -- and don't apologize for your "preaching." Lucy Copass (lucyco@scn.org) From innd@virtconf.digex.net Sun Nov 20 16:11:47 1994 Received: (from news@localhost) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id QAA16566 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Sun, 20 Nov 1994 16:11:47 -0800 Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 16:11:47 -0800 From: innd@virtconf.digex.net Message-Id: <199411210011.QAA16566@virtconf.digex.net> Reply-To: innd@virtconf.digex.net To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: UseNet-News Newsgroups: alt.ntia.avail Path: virtconf!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!bazyar From: bazyar@netcom.com (Jawaid Bazyar) Subject: Re: U.S. OUT OF MY COMPUTER Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <3altv4$ltg@nic.scruz.net> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 20:41:39 GMT Lines: 14 banshee@boing.resort.com (John Vinopal) writes: >The kind of thing the net doesn't need: >Pac BEll granting 500K to Barrnet to figure out how to sell >ISDN to the masses. Why not? What's wrong with that? -- Jawaid Bazyar | Like UNIX? Like your Apple IIGS? Then ask Procyon, Inc. | me about GNO/ME for the Apple IIgs! bazyar@netcom.com | P.O Box 620334 --Apple II Forever!-- | Littleton, CO 80162-0334 (303) 781-3273 From djhorner@clover.cleaf.com Mon Nov 21 00:48:57 1994 Received: from clover.cleaf.com (root@clover.cleaf.com [199.171.82.33]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA15302 for ; Mon, 21 Nov 1994 00:48:54 -0800 Received: by clover.cleaf.com id m0r9Rae-000AhoC; Sun, 20 Nov 94 23:47 CST Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 23:47:00 -0600 (CST) From: Don Horner To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: helpful INTERNET addresses Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am located in Texarkana, Arkansas (USA). I am involved in a medical related support group and, among other things, wish to use the INTERNET to find helpful information for our group, keep up with medical breakthroughs in research, and just be a general resourse for the group. If any one knows of some helpful INTERNET addresses, along with a brief explaination of how that address can be of assistance, I would greatly appreciate it if that person would E-mail me some information about it. I am fairly new to the INTERNET, but am trying to learn as hard and as fast as I can. As I said, our group is, in general, medically related. I thank you in advance for any time and trouble you may go to to respond to this request. So do all people in our group. Donald J. Horner From 74543.720@compuserve.com Mon Nov 21 01:44:54 1994 Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA18595 for ; Mon, 21 Nov 1994 01:44:54 -0800 Received: from localhost by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.4/5.940406sam) id BAA26782; Mon, 21 Nov 1994 01:36:34 -0500 Date: 21 Nov 94 01:34:07 EST From: Stan Witnov <74543.720@compuserve.com> To: "avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov" Subject: REPLY TO THOTS FROM MARTIN KESSEL Message-ID: <941121063406_74543.720_EHH126-1@CompuServe.COM> I picked up this comment on Sunday which I thought was great: >I hate to disillusion you, but the university community is among the >technological elite. Until recently university faculty and students >were >the only ones with access to the Internet, and are still the only ones >with >free access. Moreover, the 20 percent of American adults who are >college >graduates earn 67 percent more than high schools graduates. Because >of >their income and their academic experience, they are far more likely >to own >computers and to participate in the Internet. Obviously, the vast >majority >of us participating in this conference fall into this category. >Will the rest of the population remain behind?..... (contributed by: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin Kessel mkessel@world.std.com 34 Cottonwood Road Wellesley MA 02181 Ithink that Martin is particularly right here; however, I'm not sure this is a problem! As those of us risk money and time to educate ourselves into a technological elite the costs for hardware and access will go down (my opinion--and evidenced in many other areas e.g, audio and tv). And further, the accessability will dramatically improve as business people lure (create incentives) consumers into their market. When I used to connect to the "Source" on my Apple II (64K) at 300 baud it was a real hassle. I feel blessed that software and hardware has improved. Improved because people want to sell things and make MONEY! I believe this has been great for me and also--a benefit to all of us. In the beginning of automobiles only the rich could afford them. Look what happened: they defined our (to a large extent) current society. And buses and trollies became an obvious outgrowth for those that couldn't afford a car. I see the electronic evolution proceeding in a similar fashion: there will always be a "cutting edge" that costs more and requires some skill to access. I hope a democracy doesn't require that we be stupid about limiting ourselves until we ALL can move forward! Stan Witnov From ac174@freenet.carleton.ca Mon Nov 21 07:08:05 1994 Received: from freenet3.carleton.ca (ac174@freenet3.carleton.ca [134.117.1.22]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA06191 for ; Mon, 21 Nov 1994 07:08:04 -0800 Received: from localhost (ac174@localhost) by freenet3.carleton.ca (8.6.4/8.6.4) id HAA18927; Mon, 21 Nov 1994 07:00:13 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 07:00:13 -0500 Message-Id: <199411211200.HAA18927@freenet3.carleton.ca> From: ac174@freenet.carleton.ca (Rosaleen Dickson) To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: [AVAIL:137] AVAIL digest 37 Reply-To: ac174@freenet.carleton.ca If anyone can help me to get UNSUBSCRIBED from this group I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you -- ____________________________________________________________________________ Rosaleen Dickson ac174@freenet.carleton.ca Rosaleen@resudox.net Director, National Capital Freenet Moderator of NCF Announce and Seniors ---------------------------------------------------------------------------~ From twigs@sils.umich.edu Mon Nov 21 08:12:31 1994 Received: from sils.umich.edu (sils.umich.edu [141.211.203.30]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA09757 for ; Mon, 21 Nov 1994 08:12:30 -0800 Received: by sils.umich.edu (8.6.8/2.0) id IAA19570; Mon, 21 Nov 1994 08:06:33 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 08:06:33 -0500 (EST) From: "Cynthia S. Terwilliger" Sender: "Cynthia S. Terwilliger" Reply-To: "Cynthia S. Terwilliger" Subject: Re: [AVAIL:139] AVAIL digest 38 To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov cc: Multiple recipients of list In-Reply-To: <199411200919.BAA26159@virtconf.digex.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII It seems to me that we need to consider cooperative efforts to solve this apparent dilema of lack of access and uncertainly of availability. I left my job in a small, rural library in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan to get my Master's Degree at the School of Information and Library Studies at the University of Michigan...and thus, my access and participation in this conference! The University of Michigan is working on a project linking our library school with community libraries to train the professionals in the field to use internet technologies. This pilot project has GREAT implications and potential...why not build on what is already in place...Make a commitment sometime this week to show one other person who doesn't know anything how to do just one thing on interent...who know From BMSLIB@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Mon Nov 21 10:11:26 1994 Received: from mitvma.mit.edu (MITVMA.MIT.EDU [18.92.0.3]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA17129; Mon, 21 Nov 1994 10:11:24 -0800 Message-Id: <199411211811.KAA17129@virtconf.digex.net> Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6368; Mon, 21 Nov 94 10:03:21 EST Received: from MITVMA (NJE origin BMSLIB@MITVMA) by MITVMA.MIT.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0312; Mon, 21 Nov 1994 10:03:19 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 94 09:10:21 EST From: "W. Curtiss Priest" Subject: Re: [REDEFUS:189] REDEFUS digest 29 To: NTIA discussion on Universal Service , NTIA Forum on Availability and Cost In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 18 Nov 1994 22:47:35 -0800 I have seen several postings here and on the avail forum regarding a concern about government influence becoming government control. It is very important, I believe, for this administration to see two distinct roles for government. 1. Government should supply/support activities where there are public goods (public information) and when the benefits of this support exceeds the cost to we taxpayers. 2. Government should protect interests of users and providers of information services. This includes areas of privacy, wiretapping, standards, and balancing concerns for intellectual property. Further, I believe that important forums such as this one can only provide part of the answer. There is no substitute for careful public policy analysis, where the information from this forum and other sources is analyzed with regard to many criteria including cost/benefit ratios, affected populations, spin-off effects, etc. A government (based on point #1) might decide to provide a minimum service level (such as France's Minitel system) or, by analysis, it may decide to support leveraging activities such as supporting nonprofits that provide information to constituencies. I am thinking of the Center for Media Education, The Center for Strategic Communications, the Center for Media Values, and our own Center. What I do not see is any part of the current federal government engaged in thoughtful analysis of where these critical leveraging points are. It is not enough to convene a council of 31 (mainly business people) and it is not enough to simply solicit input from citizens from this forum and the NTIA meetings held in various cities around the country. These inputs are important and I have seen many useful ideas on these list discussions. We may not be smart enough to know what information highway we are building, but we are smart enough to identify key ways to leverage those people, in the public sector, who are bringing needed leadership and viewpoints to get the highway built. In a corporation the management and leadership comes from upper management and the board, in tune with the marketplace. In the public 'management' and leadership comes from the interplay of traditional public nonprofits such as schools and libraries, with less traditional public nonprofits such as our own. I see this government of ours confusing the roles of private business people who are guided, almost entirely, by profit with the role of people like Ken Komoski, Ex. Dir. of the Educational Products Information Exchange, who has provided consumer oriented information about educational materials and softwares for the last 26 years. This month that Institution cannot even pay the 3 staff people critical to collecting the information they provide to 10 lead states and others! The director has not been salaried for over five years. Yet, out of a passion of commitment and concern for providing information needed to make informed decisions, that Institute carries on! When the director approached people in the White house about finding support, one person asked -- if the information is valuable, why aren't you able to see it on the Internet? So many reasons. We lack pay mechanisms on the Internet. Information useful for procuring software is needed by teachers and administrators who cannot pay $129 for the information on CD-ROM because of budget cuts. The value to society of information about software and reviews from 50 magazines is underappreciated and the herd instinct causes a feeding frenzy over some 20-30 products that are continually written up in popular computer magazines, as the other 16,000 products are mostly ignored. So I am really pleading with this administration to look at the history of nonprofits. Talk to Howard Gardner about what importance the Carnegie Foundation has been to education. Read "Refections on the nonprofit Sector in the Post-Liberal Era" by Peter Dobkin Hall (Yale University, Institution for Social and Policy Studies, Program on Nonprofit Organizations), PHILANTHROPY AND AMERICAN SOCIETIES edited by Jack Salzman. What you will find it that nonprofits listen to "voice" -- constituents and provide a commitment to solving public problems. That they are highly dependent on federal funds. And they are one of the critical ways to provide solutions for accessibility and universal services. And remember, the less traditional the nonprofit cause, the harder it is for a nonprofit to survive! The United Way or AARP are heavily supported, but these instutions do not usually share these funds with a vanguard nonprofit. In 1988 we felt fortunate to get all of $5000 from AARP to study the possibilities of distance learning for older Americans. But we were unsuccessful in convincing AARP that they had a role in helping shape that future! They mainly wanted to inform their members of what the business sector would be providing. We are not suggesting that this administration support any nonprofit that hangs out their shingle, but to listen better to understand what various nonprofits can provide in the development of our mutual information future -- and leverage! their activities in assuring accessibility and universal service. _______________________________________________________________________________ | W. Curtiss Priest, Ph.D. *********************** | | Center for Information, Technology, & Society * Improving humanity * | | * through technology * | | 466 Pleasant Street *********************** | | Melrose, MA 02176-4522 | | Voice: 617-662-4044 Gopher to our publications: | | Fax: 617-662-6882 GOPHER.STD.COM (under nonprofits) | _____________________________________________________________________________| From CCDF@vm1.si.USherb.ca Mon Nov 21 10:52:50 1994 Received: from vm1.si.USherb.ca (VM1.SI.USHERB.CA [132.210.13.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA19527 for ; Mon, 21 Nov 1994 10:52:49 -0800 Message-Id: <199411211852.KAA19527@virtconf.digex.net> Received: from VM1.SI.USHERB.CA by vm1.si.USherb.ca (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9818; Mon, 21 Nov 94 10:42:12 EST Received: from UDESVM (CCDF) by VM1.SI.USHERB.CA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) with BSMTP id 8954; Mon, 21 Nov 94 10:42:10 EST Date: Mon, 21 Nov 94 10:41:56 EST From: Dan Fournier To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov SUBSCRIBE AVAIL From BHARRIS@ntia.doc.gov Mon Nov 21 16:11:09 1994 Received: from ntia.doc.gov (ntia.doc.gov [198.49.199.5]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA09226 for ; Mon, 21 Nov 1994 16:11:08 -0800 From: BHARRIS@ntia.doc.gov Received: from NTIADC40-Message_Server by ntia.doc.gov with WordPerfect_Office; Mon, 21 Nov 1994 16:05:27 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: WordPerfect Office 4.0 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 16:04:59 -0500 To: BHARRIS@ntia.doc.gov, cfranz@ntia.doc.gov, DAVE_BARRAM@ntia.doc.gov, DDAVIS@ntia.doc.gov, JLADY@ntia.doc.gov, LWILLIAMS@ntia.doc.gov, mfarquhar@ntia.doc.gov, MPOLK@ntia.doc.gov, PDARDEN@ntia.doc.gov, RCLARK@ntia.doc.gov, rrobinson@ntia.doc.gov, SSCHOUMACHER@ntia.doc.gov, avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Interim Summary for Availability List ------------------- sumavail follows -------------------- Summary of the Affordability and Availability Conference Hosts: 1. Eli Noam, Columbia University Business School, "How to Pay for Universal Service in Telecommunications Under Competition: Reforming the Financial Support System for Universal Service In Telecommunications" Key points: Noam explains that the current universal service system is cumbersome and unable to function well in a competitive environment. He proposes a "net transmission account system" that ensures that all carriers - local, long-distance and mobile - contribute proportionally to the maintenance of universal service. Administrated by an independent accounting firm, the system debits all carriers by a fixed percentage and then provides cerdits based on actual contributions to universal service. The system guarantees that newcomers pay their fair share, and that all customers, including those who are subsidized, are able to choose among carriers through a "virtual voucher" plan. The system does not distort costs or incentives and provides easy and reliable accounting. 2. Dean J. Miller, Chair, National Association of Regulatory Utility Commissioners Committee on Communications, "Affordability and Availability of Universal Service" Key points: The old system of universal service was kept in place through regulated monopolies that were protected by state governments. The states and the FCC should create standards for universal service, and allow for expansion of the basic package as information technologies advance. Interstate providers should pay for universal service, and states should continue to develop their own policies so long as basic federal mandates are satisfied. Advanced telecommunications services should not be included in the definition of universal service at this point. Universal service for "plain old telephone service" has not been achieved, and less than 73% of households in the lowest income category (under $5000 annual income) have access today. Traditional programs such as the FCC's Lifeline and Linkup must continue. Market forces should drive technology deployment and technical standards. Discussion on the list: Bruce Potter of the Island Resources Foundation: States do need supremacy of authority to ensure universal service. However the real problems faced by small, geographically isolated areas such as the US Virgin Islands, is extreme vulnerability to local monopolies. Until the late 1970's, the federal government had exercised no control over the extortionate rates then being charged by the Territory's monopoly long distance carrier, which were four to five times greater per mile than long distance tariffs in the continental United States. The Internet's resources are particularly precious to residents of island territories. The territories are not naive in insisting that the information infrastructure must accomodate both access and low rates. Without both, the territories will receive no benefit and will in fact find their needs increasingly marginalized. General summary: Several people expressed concern that the development of the NII has focussed on business interests and economic development rather than on ensuring access for all Americans. The theme the economic development will not by itself bring universal service to reality surfaced repeatedly. Robert Jacobson presented a detailed history of California's Universal Telephone Service Act which is being considered a model for national efforts. Poor citizens were having significant problems affording telephone service, and a law was put into effect allowing a reduced LifeLine service at very low cost that limited the number of calls per month. The service, paid for by long- diatnce service providers, has been successful in avoiding abuse - fewer than five percent of its subscribers earn more than the poverty line. Providers and consumers have been satisfied with the scheme. Similar programs should be made available to residents of other states. Carl Hage described in detail the differences in Internet access costs depending on organization size. He estimates that a 1000-person company pays $4 per person per month for full access, and each user there is able to retrieve a 100 page document in half a second. A 100-person company pays $5 per month and the same document requires 6 sec; a single person company pays between 100 and 200 dollars and requires 56 seconds. Also larger companies can offer better network services. Currently, two dedicated telephone lines plus one shared line is used for modem access, whereas a single shared line could be used. The telephone companies offer only "connection oriented" service rather than the "packet oriented" service used for computer communication. A message which takes three minutes to read consumes 5000 times as much network resources in the connection oriented telephone switch as would be required to transmit via a packet oriented switching technology. Since the telephone companies do not provide modem access or low cost packet switched service, internet access costs rise. Local daytime telephone costs $21 per gigabyte of information, which is far lower than the costs required for internet access. For example, Prodigy's internet mail costs $16,667 per gigabyte and Pacific Bell's packet data service costs $6,400 per gigabyte. The Internet and the Global Computer Network are providing a very important means for the people of our society to have an ability to speak for themselves and to fight their own battles to better the society. If the Clinton Administration had been interested in the history and development of the Net, one wonders if they would have rushed to place the NII committee in the U.S. Dept of Commerce. I want to see cheap public access to the Internet, and other informational services. If this isn't something 'good' that government can do for the people relatively inexpensively... I don't know what is. One issue is the question of trans-national or international use of, for example, the Internet. Curtiss Priest introduced LINCT (Learning and Information Network for Community Telecomputing). LINCT is a not-for-profit coalition of socially-concerned organizations -- working with affiliated businesses and local governments, libraries, schools, and social services-- to help communities achieve universal, equitable access to integrated, community -wide electronic information and learning services. Other LINCT programs being developed include improving home-school-social agency communications, primary health and crime prevention, online homework mentoring, and the online operation of community-based "time-dollar" exchanges linked to at-home, work-related training. I'l like to hear more from the Oregon edge of the world. Being from a small, rural library in the Upper Penisula of Michigan, with a very small tax base...faced with geographical isolation and no clout...how do we get our voices heard and assure our partrons equal and universal access to these new and wonderful services...we have no local nodes...every hook up is a long distance call. What are you doing over there? Bringing technology that's both powerful and unusable does no one any good -- 2 *BIG* problems with the Internet right now are the lack of a consistent, usable interface, and the TOTAL lack of people at individual sites who are willing to train and educate new users. What are the possibilities of providing e-mail accounts to the interested who do not have the opportunity for access elsewhere (such as people who don't have phone service or can't spring for a private carrier) through the public library system? From innd@virtconf.digex.net Mon Nov 21 22:01:36 1994 Received: (from news@localhost) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id WAA27485 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Mon, 21 Nov 1994 22:01:36 -0800 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 22:01:36 -0800 From: innd@virtconf.digex.net Message-Id: <199411220601.WAA27485@virtconf.digex.net> Reply-To: innd@virtconf.digex.net To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: UseNet-News Path: virtconf!miwok!nbn!nic.scruz.net!boing.resort.com!banshee From: banshee@boing.resort.com (John Vinopal) Newsgroups: alt.ntia.avail Subject: Re: U.S. OUT OF MY COMPUTER Date: 22 Nov 1994 02:23:13 GMT Organization: scruz-net Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3arkmh$1tj@nic.scruz.net> References: <3altv4$ltg@nic.scruz.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: resort.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #0 (NOV) bazyar@netcom.com (Jawaid Bazyar) writes: >banshee@boing.resort.com (John Vinopal) writes: >>The kind of thing the net doesn't need: >>Pac BEll granting 500K to Barrnet to figure out how to sell >>ISDN to the masses. > Why not? What's wrong with that? Small companies who could REALLY use that much money are currently sucessfully selling isdn connections. -- The Wailer at the Gates of Dawn | banshee@resort.com | Just who ARE you calling a FROOFROO Head? | | DoD#0667 "Just a friend of the beast." | http://resort.com/~banshee/ | 2,3,5,7,13,17,19,31,61,89,107,127,521,607....| | From djhorner@clover.cleaf.com Mon Nov 21 23:28:16 1994 Received: from clover.cleaf.com (root@clover.cleaf.com [199.171.82.33]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA02886 for ; Mon, 21 Nov 1994 23:28:15 -0800 Received: by clover.cleaf.com id m0r9mos-000AhwC; Mon, 21 Nov 94 22:27 CST Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 22:27:05 -0600 (CST) From: Don Horner To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: REACHING OUT !? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Will anyone recieving this message, please respond by sending E-mail to the above address. Plesas include your City, State. I wish to check to make sure I am "GETTING OUT !" Thank You! djh ATZ From djhorner@clover.cleaf.com Mon Nov 21 23:33:43 1994 Received: from clover.cleaf.com (root@clover.cleaf.com [199.171.82.33]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA03258 for ; Mon, 21 Nov 1994 23:33:42 -0800 Received: by clover.cleaf.com id m0r9mu5-000AhwC; Mon, 21 Nov 94 22:32 CST Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 22:32:27 -0600 (CST) From: Don Horner To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: a helpful address Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Does anyone know the Internet address of the National Institute on Disability and Rehabilitation Research? djh From djhorner@clover.cleaf.com Mon Nov 21 23:39:43 1994 Received: from clover.cleaf.com (root@clover.cleaf.com [199.171.82.33]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA03609 for ; Mon, 21 Nov 1994 23:39:42 -0800 Received: by clover.cleaf.com id m0r9mzz-000AhxC; Mon, 21 Nov 94 22:38 CST Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 22:38:34 -0600 (CST) From: Don Horner To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: a helpful address? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Does anyone know the Internet address of the West Virgina rehabilitation research & training center? Any information concerning project "Enable" and project "Able Data" would be greatly appriciated! djh From hauben@columbia.edu Tue Nov 22 02:02:51 1994 Received: from merhaba.cc.columbia.edu ([128.59.40.130]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA12093; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 02:02:49 -0800 Received: by merhaba.cc.columbia.edu id AA28036 (5.65c+CU/IDA-1.4.4/HLK); Tue, 22 Nov 1994 01:54:36 -0500 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 01:54:36 -0500 From: Michael Hauben Message-Id: <199411220654.AA28036@merhaba.cc.columbia.edu> To: redefus@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Cc: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Need to stress concept of active communication and interconnection Questions of Universal Access, and Definition of Services. Two questions for two conferences in NTIA's virtual conference. I. Universal Access Basic Principles In order for communications networks to be as useful as possible, it is necessary for it both to A) Connect every possible resource and opinion, B) Make this connection available to all who desire it. A and B call for Universal Interconnection, rather than Universal Access. The usage of "interconnection" highlights the importance and role of every user also being an information provider. The term "access" stresses the status-quo understanding of one-way communication, the user accesses information that other "authorized" information providers make available. This is the old model. The new model is of interconnection of many different types of people, information, and ideas. The new model stresses the breakdown of old definitions of communication and information. Diversity allows for both the increasing speed in the formation of new ideas, and the ability for previously unauthorized ideas to have the airing and consideration they rightfully deserve. II. Definition of "Services" to be available on this Universal Interconnection To start off, I take issue with the term "service." As I have stated in Point I, the terminology being used is being adopted from an out-dated model of a Top-Down communications system. The new era of interconnection and many-to-many communication afforded by Netnews and Mailing lists (among other technologies) brings to the forefront a model of bottom-up rather than top-down communication and information. It is time to reexamine society and welcome the democratizing trends of many-to-many communication over the one-to-many models as represented by broadcast television, radio, newspapers and other media. Rather than service, I would propose that we examine what "forms of communication" should be available. So instead of talking about "Universal Service", we should consider "Universal Interconnection to forms of communication." Now I can consider what forms of communication I feel it would make sense to provide on the networks which are currently developing, and that the NTIA is seeking help on defining for the future. The first important point to understand is that several communications and information networks already exist. People working on defining the National Information Infrastructure (NII) or Global Information Infrastructure (GII) should closely examine and try to understand the Internet, Usenet, and other currently existing physical and logical networks. The key to understanding what these currently existing networks is to consider their history and development. Why were these networks developed, and under what conditions? It is wrong to think on the future until one understands these crucial questions, and is thinking about the past and present. In summary, from my research into the history and development of the ARPANET/Internet and Usenet, it is important to realize two things 1) The ARPANET was backed by a founding vision of a public intellectual utility which would serve the whole of the community. 2) Usenet and ARPANET mailing lists were formed out of the desire of people to communicate with others. [Active discussion and debate as opposed to the passive transfer of information of which the "information superhighway" is being shoeboxed.] As such, I would say it would be important to highlight, discuss and make available interactive modes of communication over the passive transfer of information. Thus I am suggesting emphasizing of forms of multiple way of communication and broadcasting. Forms currently defined by newsgroups, mailing lists, talk sessions, IRC sessions, MOO experiences, and other forms of sharing and collaboration. These type of forums are where this new technology excels. Plenty of media exist which facilitates the passive transfer of information and goods. (Such as mail-order, stores, telephone orders, etc) It would be best to explore and develop the new forms of communication which this new media facilitates, and which was less possible and present in the past. For more information about the history and development of the Net, please reference "The Netizens and the Wonderful World of the Net: On the History and Impact of the Global Computer Network." http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/project_book.html http://scrg.cs.tcd.ie/scrg/u/rcwoods/netbook/contents.html gopher://gopher.cic.net/1/e-serials/alphabetic/a/amateur-computerist/netbook ftp://wuarchive.wustl.edu/doc/misc/acn/netbook If anyone needs help accessing any of these references, please let me know. Michael Hauben Undergraduate Senior, Columbia College, Dept. of Computer Science -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Hauben Columbia College'95 Editor of Amateur Computerist Newsletter by day hauben@columbia.edu by night Netizen's Cyberstop From innd@virtconf.digex.net Tue Nov 22 02:21:24 1994 Received: (from news@localhost) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id CAA13375 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 02:21:24 -0800 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 02:21:24 -0800 From: innd@virtconf.digex.net Message-Id: <199411221021.CAA13375@virtconf.digex.net> Reply-To: innd@virtconf.digex.net To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: UseNet-News Path: virtconf!miwok!well!pacbell.com!uop!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uwm.edu!caen!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!torn!uunet.ca!uunet.ca!torfree!gts!feline!halt!scrumptious!canards!oro.net!smudge.oro.net!smj From: smj@smudge.oro.net (Scott Jennings) Newsgroups: alt.ntia.avail.ctl Subject: cmsg newgroup alt.ntia.avail Control: newgroup alt.ntia.avail Date: 20 Nov 1994 03:23:24 GMT Organization: "OroNet, Penn Valley, CA" Lines: 2 Approved: smj@oro.net Message-ID: <3ajr3c$6u12@ag.oro.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: smudge.oro.net These groups were created a mere four days ahead of schedule. From chage@rahul.net Tue Nov 22 07:25:17 1994 Received: from tango.rahul.net (root@tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA01578 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 07:25:14 -0800 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA10521 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 22 Nov 1994 04:17:19 -0800 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA28472 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Tue, 22 Nov 1994 04:17:15 -0800 Received: by slick.chage.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20655; Tue, 22 Nov 94 01:27:35 PST Date: Tue, 22 Nov 94 01:27:35 PST From: chage@rahul.net (Carl Hage) Message-Id: <9411220927.AA20655@slick.chage.com> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Nonprofits and the Internet >From: "W. Curtiss Priest" ... [Re: Educational Products Information Exchange] >When the director approached people in the White house about finding >support, one person asked -- if the information is valuable, why aren't >you able to see it on the Internet? An interesting response. I'm surprised that someone in the White house would say that, because my expectations of the government's involvement in the Internet is very new. Actually, I think that is a very relevant response. The Internet would seem to be a very logical place for this type of information. My guess is that the real reason is that too few of the 100,000 K12 schools have basic internet access. >So many reasons. We lack pay mechanisms on the Internet. Information >useful for procuring software is needed by teachers and administrators >who cannot pay $129 for the information on CD-ROM because of budget >cuts. The value to society of information about software and reviews >from 50 magazines is underappreciated and the herd instinct causes >a feeding frenzy over some 20-30 products that are continually written >up in popular computer magazines, as the other 16,000 products are >mostly ignored. I guess I would disagree that the reason is that we lack payment mechanisms or even that we do. Sales via credit card is common. Shareware is another common payment mechanism. Distribution costs on the internet are near 0, especially for the k12 usenet newsgroups. One or a few people, e.g. the staff of EPIE, can organize information produced from a large number of people, combining information from the authors of educational products with the reviews and comments from actual users (not just a paid reviewer). Maybe the Educational Products Information Exchange *should* move to the Internet. I don't see how this nonprofit relates to government policy, except perhaps the focus on "high-end" technology. Maybe you are saying, "Why is the government (or telecom companies) funding expensive equipment like video to schools when they can`t afford $129 to help them locate educational materials for a used computer?" Perhaps the schools would rather pay for a $30 magazine with 30 products rather than a $129 CD. It seems to me that nonprofits get much of thier revenue from contributions, e.g. membership fees. The internet offers a fantastic opportunity for nonprofits as the mainstream public begins to use it. Communication, a main resource for nonprofits, is very inexpensive using the internet. I would really like to see more nonprofits opening up and offering information freely accessable via internet. In too many cases, e.g. apc.org, they are a closed society which require membership payments before allowing access to thier information. I am deluged with expensive junk mail, greeting cards, calendars, etc. for nonprofits which send stuff and ask for money. Yet, it is very difficult to find much about them. I would rather see what they do and see them providing a service, and then I am more likely to give a contribution if I think what they are doing is worthwhile. >And remember, the less traditional the nonprofit cause, the harder it >is for a nonprofit to survive! The United Way or AARP are heavily >supported, but these instutions do not usually share these funds >with a vanguard nonprofit. In 1988 we felt fortunate to get all of >$5000 from AARP to study the possibilities of distance learning for >older Americans. But we were unsuccessful in convincing AARP that >they had a role in helping shape that future! They mainly wanted to >inform their members of what the business sector would be providing. This sounds like a need for one of those community "centers" to educate the public for demand pull. What about senior net? Maybe you should just keep trying, write some articles for AARP and get some seniors using computers! >We are not suggesting that this administration support any nonprofit >that hangs out their shingle, but to listen better to understand >what various nonprofits can provide in the development of our mutual >information future -- and leverage! their activities in assuring >accessibility and universal service. I can't figure out what you are asking for. I would say that nonprofits can contribute a great deal to the "community" brought together by the NII. The government and telecom providers can help nonprofits participate in the NII by helping them obtain access. This could be accomplished for example, by grants of equipment, etc. to universities, community nets, or other nonprofits, etc. who in turn provide network access and support services to other nonprofit community service organizations. There is a substantial amount of support for internet access to nonprofits. In the old days, e.g. a few years ago, email and netnews was usually free, as one company typically passed along mail for another, kind of like a favor. Now with more general access to the public, one usually must pay, but in return companies provide support service. Nonprofits can still get internet access if they know how to ask and how to setup thier computers. Perhaps the Center for Information, Technology, & Society can help other nonprofits become network literate and join the world of cyberspace. The government could help nonprofits by using some of the NII research to fund educational materials and starter kits which are appropriate for schools and nonprofits, e.g. very low budget access using donated computers. I think a significant policy issue for the NII Advisory Council is that we need an infrastructure to support the low-end, low budget needs of the nonprofits and K-12 schools. The title of the "HPPC" is fundamentally wrong. We don't need high performance gigabit networking, but we do need high access. Let's redirect some of the funding for high end technology into getting the mainstream public onto the net. Instead of funding an hour of video between two users, we should use the money to let 100,000 users send an email message! From chage@rahul.net Tue Nov 22 07:25:21 1994 Received: from tango.rahul.net (root@tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA01584 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 07:25:17 -0800 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA10528 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 22 Nov 1994 04:17:21 -0800 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA28483 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Tue, 22 Nov 1994 04:17:19 -0800 Received: by slick.chage.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20666; Tue, 22 Nov 94 02:01:16 PST Date: Tue, 22 Nov 94 02:01:16 PST From: chage@rahul.net (Carl Hage) Message-Id: <9411221001.AA20666@slick.chage.com> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Interim Summary for Availability List >>From: BHARRIS@ntia.doc.gov > >Carl Hage described in detail the differences in Internet access costs ... >Local daytime telephone costs $21 per gigabyte of >information, which is far lower than the costs required for internet >access. For example, Prodigy's internet mail costs $16,667 per gigabyte >and Pacific Bell's packet data service costs $6,400 per gigabyte. Part of my point in this table got lost, and probably wasn't explained well. Actually, internet access costs can be quite reasonable, particularly for large businesses. The $21/GB in local telephone access is higher than current internet access costs! A corporation with a 1.5Mb leased line with a 10% two-way average load over 24 hours would pay ~$6 per gigabyte in access fees. If the average load increased, the cost would go down. A smaller business would pay more per GB, but would The point was that heavily advertised servies, e.g. Prodigy, or the services from telco's, e.g. PacBell, have outrageously high usage fees for digital packet data or email, in comparison to full internet access which has many competing providers offering service. Many people believe internet access is expensive. Actually email is extremely cheap, and TV resolution video is (currently) extremely expensive. The difference in the quantity of digital data between a TV resolution video and a written transcript of a speech or the book version of a movie is on the order of 100,000:1. My provider charges $20 per month for up to 100MB UUCP access to the internet (I can't afford a $80/mo dedicated connection). The initial minute charges by the phone company for a business can potentially raise the monthly telephone cost to $80/mo, several times the internet access fee. From BMSLIB@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Tue Nov 22 08:32:29 1994 Received: from mitvma.mit.edu (MITVMA.MIT.EDU [18.92.0.3]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA05752 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 08:32:29 -0800 Message-Id: <199411221632.IAA05752@virtconf.digex.net> Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0352; Tue, 22 Nov 94 08:24:33 EST Received: from MITVMA (NJE origin BMSLIB@MITVMA) by MITVMA.MIT.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6950; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 08:24:33 -0500 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 94 07:57:09 EST From: "W. Curtiss Priest" Subject: Re: [AVAIL:156] AVAIL digest 52 To: NTIA Forum on Availability and Cost In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 22 Nov 1994 07:26:42 -0800 My thanks to chage@rahul.net (Carl Hage) for a very considered reply to our posting about the role of nonprofits. Regarding Carl's comments about getting revenues for educational consumer information, I think the comments are thoughtful but not practical. As evidence I cite today's Boston Globe's article "Internet losses: The traditional rules don't apply in running on-line enterprises." Here the front page article describes many attempts of for profits in trying to use the Internet to make money. The first story was about Laura Fillmore who bought the electronic rights to one of Stephen King's short stories. "If she could persuade just a tiny fraction of all those Internet cruisers to pay $5 to download the King story, 'I figured it would do very well.'" How many bought it -- "only dozens" This didn't even pay for the effort of putting it up, let alone profit. Regarding Carl Hage's suggestion about educating others, I think he is right on point. We are forming a 'Foundations Forum for Cyberspace Policy and Action.' We believe the private foundations can benefit from having a forum where they can exchange ideas and get expert advice about how 'cyberspace' relates to their missions. Fortunately there are many foundations and so if we receive a $500 membership fee from 50 foundations, we get $25,000 a year. Not really a bundle to cover our staff costs, but we have to make the fee small enough to make it easily agreed to. In the federal sector there is no similar funding possibility. I can't get the various agencies to become members of a forum -- there is too much red tape to aggregate these funds. Over the last 10 years we have been fortunate to participate in 8 studies related to our mission from the Office of Technology Assessment, U.S. Congress, but these funds require meeting the precise demands of a project requested by Congress and does not provide us with the latitude to address issues not within the scope of the project. The NSF is another potential source, but we do not fair well in peer reviews because we have not spent the time to become part of the peer review clubs (I won't comment on the details). Our attempts at NTIA/TIIAP funding was probably thwarted by two things: only 8% of the bidders received an award and our two proposals were submitted under vanguard nonprofits -- LINCT and the Center for Civic Networking. I think reviewers didn't want to take the risks involved, though the proposals were both excellent and would have provided a better return (in my humble opinion) than other projects that were funded. This brings me back to the point of my last piece. There needs to be a federal mechanism to fund higher risk, innovative proposals. This can only occur when more people who are "low self-monitors" are actually involved in the project (see Boston Globe, 11/14/94 "Toeing the line up corporate ladder, p. 29.) That article notes that many firms such as IBm, Eastman-Kodak, General Motors, and Digital Equipment Corporation have had so much trouble adapting to changing circumstances because they are populated with "high self-monitors" -- people who adapt themselves to those above them so that they are liked. They cite Steve Jobs "as a maverick who left one corporate employer because top managers there were't interested in his vision of a user-friendly personal computer." And we know how that story goes. Returning to the federal government and DOC, in particular, I judge that there are too many "high self-monitors" in the group. For example, Bonny Bracey has tried to involve our Center with the formation of educational principles to guide NTIA -- with no success. She, herself, has said in various email correspondences that she is not listened to and that NTIA just keep listening to the same old, same old. As you can tell, I am a low self-monitor. It may mean I never see a dollar from NTIA. I have, instead, been quite outspoken about ways in which we think the process can be improved (and I have rent and a family to think about). _______________________________________________________________________________ | W. Curtiss Priest, Ph.D. *********************** | | Center for Information, Technology, & Society * Improving humanity * | | * through technology * | | 466 Pleasant Street *********************** | | Melrose, MA 02176-4522 BMSLIB@MITVMA.MIT.EDU | | Voice: 617-662-4044 Gopher to our publications: | | Fax: 617-662-6882 GOPHER.STD.COM (under nonprofits) | _____________________________________________________________________________| From rbarry@hopper.itc.virginia.edu Tue Nov 22 09:07:00 1994 Received: from virginia.edu (uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.7]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA07701 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 09:06:59 -0800 Received: from hopper.itc.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa01384; 22 Nov 94 8:59 EST Received: (from rbarry@localhost) by Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU (8.6.8/8.6.6) id IAA24191 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 08:59:09 -0500 From: Rey Barry Message-Id: <199411221359.IAA24191@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU> Subject: Re: [AVAIL:154] AVAIL digest 50 To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 08:59:09 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199411221003.CAA12201@virtconf.digex.net> from "avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov" at Nov 22, 94 02:03:27 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 728 > II. Definition of "Services" to be available on this Universal > Interconnection > To start off, I take issue with the term "service." As I > have stated in Point I, the terminology being used is being > adopted from an out-dated model of a Top-Down communications > system. I agree with you. The Internet only makes sense if you consider it an experiment in, of all things, pure communism. Then it all makes perfect sense. One suspects an attempt to extend it beyond the commune will follow a known course. -- rbarry@hopper.itc.virginia.edu Freeware Hall of Fame BBS The only thing Americans Hayes Optima 288 - 804-293-4710 have in common is paranoia. Free BBS - 1st call downloads From jamesm@satyrs.engr.CSUFresno.EDU Tue Nov 22 12:16:40 1994 Received: from satyrs.engr.CSUFresno.EDU (satyrs.cs.CSUFresno.EDU [129.8.117.1]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA18514 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 12:16:39 -0800 Received: from zonar.engr.csufresno.edu by satyrs.engr.CSUFresno.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05830; Tue, 22 Nov 94 09:08:44 PST Date: Tue, 22 Nov 94 09:08:44 PST From: jamesm@satyrs.engr.CSUFresno.EDU (James Martin) Message-Id: <9411221708.AA05830@satyrs.engr.CSUFresno.EDU> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: don't yell; I'm right here!! Cc: jamesm yes, you are GETTING OUT! Thank you! From jamesm@satyrs.engr.CSUFresno.EDU Tue Nov 22 12:51:47 1994 Received: from satyrs.engr.CSUFresno.EDU (satyrs.cs.CSUFresno.EDU [129.8.117.1]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA21049 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 12:51:44 -0800 Received: from zonar.engr.csufresno.edu by satyrs.engr.CSUFresno.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05591; Tue, 22 Nov 94 08:17:10 PST Date: Tue, 22 Nov 94 08:17:10 PST From: jamesm@satyrs.engr.CSUFresno.EDU (James Martin) Message-Id: <9411221617.AA05591@satyrs.engr.CSUFresno.EDU> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: regulators in sheeps' clothing Cc: jamesm per the advice of the moderator, this is cross-posted from the PRIVACY discussion group, to wit: The major point to keep uppermost in mind, when discussing the various legal & technical entanglements of protecting (or, as is the probable eventual goal of many who claim to be protecting privacy, actually attacking) privacy, is that there will always be those who will want to limit our rights. Any regulatory entity which initially is quite acceptable to those (such as me) who are concerned about the insidious threats to privacy, posed by various authorities, will soon find itself influenced by people who actually are NOT interested in retaining every individual's rights. I would like to opine that I see no need - excepting the need for a politician to get news coverage for announcing some allegedly new idea - for an "information superhighway" to be constructed; we already have one, the internet: the principal problem is one mentioned earlier, that access to the internet is restricted to the elite. However, I do not expect access to be made as easy for the lay populace, as access is for a highway. I think that this is the implication of the alleged policy; that an info-highway will be available to any person & will be as easy to use as a highway. It is quite true that our society could use currently available resources (as one person mentioned, old model computers are currently being junked for scrap metal; in other words, we are throwing stuff away that we could possibly use to provide some sort of program to provide computers for the poor - the image springs to mind, of the USDA program which buys selected food commodities from farmers & then gives that food to poor folks) to construct such a system. It would undoubtedly benefit society in general, for every person to have the ability to access the internet from their own home. The machinery involved would be no more complex or expensive than our currently widely-used television broadcasting system. However, as I said, I sincerely doubt that we will see such a system in our lifetime. Like any other change which does not principally benefit some entrenched elite group, it will face too much opposition from our barbarians. While many (including George Brett - whose url & e-address both are, strangely enough, inoperable ... at least from this e-end - the director of cindr.org) seem to be sincerely working to develop standards and regulations for networks, there will be far too much pressure from those whose primary interest is to limit individual rights. Ostensibly, the goals of these people will seem innocuous. Some may take delight in the intellectual intricacies of the legal system, or they may merely be delighted at the prospect of increased employment security for the many lawyers who will specialize in the briar patch of laws which will entrap many unsuspecting people who try to use the internet's heir. Far more dangerous are the people who consider their morality to be superior. They have been prominently featured in most of the press coverage of internet issues. Here a pornographer, there a child molester. They have made certain that many people are aware of the fact that naughty words are sometimes spoken, in the e-literature. They are dangerous for several reasons. They are always going to be with us. As long as people are strongly attracted to religions, the authority figures of those groups will have a strong influence on any public policy. And, despite the whinings from such as I, who complain that sex is nowhere near as bad for grown or growing children, as killing is, they can get a lot of valuable (for them) publicity from someone who writes a naughty word in one state, & someone else in another state reads that word. So those who appoint themselves to ensure that I conform to their version of morality, are going to always be stirring up whatever trouble they can. The keepers of our "morality" are insidious; their influence is felt in a variety of surprising venues, and their agenda is promoted by seemingly harmless ventures. It will provide them with many new opportunities, by starting up a commission to "reform" the internet. Certainly we will need to accommodate new technologies as the decades pass, and we really should try to eliminate the info-have-nots from the fringes of our society. But the "improvements" are certain to be defined by the wrong people. James Milton Martin jamesm@satyrs.engr.csufresno.edu http:// www.engr.csufresno.edu/Personal/ECE/Students/James_Milton_Martin/Home.html Thank you for your attention. James From <@UTARLVM1.UTA.EDU:VANBROCKLIN@library.uta.edu> Tue Nov 22 17:38:02 1994 Received: from UTARLVM1.UTA.EDU (utarlvm1.uta.edu [129.107.1.6]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA07382 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 17:38:01 -0800 Received: from libmail.uta.edu by UTARLVM1.UTA.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 22 Nov 94 13:08:01 CST Received: From CENLIB/WORKQUEUE by libmail.uta.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.941122131043.288; 22 Nov 94 13:13:00 +0500 Message-ID: From: "Jackie Van Brocklin" To: Don Horner , avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 13:10:37 CST Subject: Re: [AVAIL:151] REACHING OUT !? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 > Received: From CENLIB/MAILQUEUE by libmail.uta.edu > via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 102.941121222343.320; > 21 Nov 94 22:25:32 +0500 > Received: From UTARLVM1.UTA.EDU by libmail.uta.edu > via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with SMTP id 102.941121222343.320; > 21 Nov 94 22:25:29 +0500 > Received: from virtconf.digex.net by UTARLVM1.UTA.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) > with TCP; Mon, 21 Nov 94 22:20:48 CST > Received: from (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA02897; Mon, 21 Nov 1994 23:28:21 -0800 > Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 23:28:21 -0800 > Message-Id: > Reply-To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov > Originator: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov > Sender: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov > Precedence: first-class > From: Don Horner > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: [AVAIL:151] REACHING OUT !? > X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas > X-Comment: Due to server load, all subscriptions converted to DIGESTS > MIME-Version: 1.0 > X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 > > Will anyone recieving this message, please respond by sending E-mail to > the above address. Plesas include your City, State. I wish to check to > make sure I am "GETTING OUT !" Thank You! > > djh > ATZ > > I'm reading you HERE! (Arlington, Texas) JVB> > From jdschwe@kn.PacBell.COM Tue Nov 22 17:46:00 1994 Received: from hupa.kn.PacBell.COM (hupa.kn.PacBell.COM [192.150.170.102]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA08308 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 17:45:58 -0800 Received: from miwok (miwok.kn.PacBell.COM) by hupa.kn.PacBell.COM (4.1/SKnowNet-07/01/93) id AA08404; Tue, 22 Nov 94 14:38:07 PST Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 14:38:07 -0800 (PST) From: John Schweizer Subject: Re: [AVAIL:151] REACHING OUT !? To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Cc: Multiple recipients of list In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII John Schweizer San Francisco, California On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Don Horner wrote: > Will anyone recieving this message, please respond by sending E-mail to > the above address. Plesas include your City, State. I wish to check to > make sure I am "GETTING OUT !" Thank You! > > djh > ATZ > > > > From drd@mv.MV.COM Tue Nov 22 17:54:08 1994 Received: from mv.mv.com (root@mv.MV.COM [192.80.84.1]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA09097 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 17:54:07 -0800 Received: by mv.mv.com (8.6.9/mv(b)/mem-940616) id OAA05507; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 14:20:34 -0500 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 14:20:34 -0500 From: "David R. Dick" Message-Id: <199411221920.OAA05507@mv.mv.com> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: REACHING OUT !? Newsgroups: alt.ntia.avail In-Reply-To: Organization: MV Communications, Inc. ack From e81241@rl.gov Tue Nov 22 19:28:05 1994 Received: from mailhost.lanl.gov (mailhost.lanl.gov [128.165.3.12]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA14744 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 19:28:05 -0800 Received: from fep1.rl.gov by mailhost.lanl.gov (8.6.8.1/1.2) id RAA07646; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 17:20:14 -0700 Received: by fep1.rl.gov (5.51/5.17.rl-1) id AA25868; Tue, 22 Nov 94 16:26:01 PST Date: Tue, 22 Nov 94 16:26:01 PST From: e81241@rl.gov (bart preecs) Message-Id: <9411230026.AA25868@fep1.rl.gov> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Why not TV, cable? Cc: e81241@rl.gov I'd like to support -- with an important qualification -- the general approach to the economics of universal service or universal access to advanced electronic communication tools advocated by Prof. Noam. The qualification has to do with the comment that existing broadcasting and telecommunications users would not pay into the fund used to support universal service. I do not understand the purpose of this exemption. I see no reason other than sheer political expediency while existing TV, radio, and cable operators should not pay into universal service pools. The revenue thus created would be substantial, but if we're going to provide an information infrastructure that provides phones lines, computer terminals, and other services to 150,000 K-12 schools, and tens of thousands of public libraries, substantial revenues will be needed. (as a benchmark, consider that my wife works at a middle school that has 1,100 students, 60 teachers and exactly six outgoing phone lines. ) Cable television in particular has an odd tax structure, perhaps because of its hybrid federal- local regulatory scheme. Washington state collects sales tax on only a small portion of my monthly bill and the tax paid to the city is a fraction of what the sales tax on the whole bill would be. (An exemption upheld by a cash-starved Legislature only 2 years ago.) Daily newspapers in Washington don't appear to pay any sales tax either, and fear of angry publishers seems to be the only explanation for this odd exemption. If there's an economic justification for not including existing services in the pools providing support for universal service, I'd like to hear about it. Bart Preecs Richland WA From Post_Office@wwire.net Tue Nov 22 20:03:54 1994 Received: from pandora.sf.ca.us (pandora.sf.ca.us [192.190.111.22]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA16738 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 20:03:54 -0800 Received: from wwire.net by pandora.sf.ca.us id aa23954; 23 Nov 94 0:55 GMT Message-ID: <1501954046.52289435@wwire.wwire.net> Date: 22 Nov 1994 23:40:05 GMT From: Post_Office@wwire.net (Post Office) Organization: Women's Wire Reply-To: Post_Office@wwire.net Subject: NDN: [AVAIL:165] AVAIL digest 57 To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to: Nancy Rhine (Mailbox or Conference is full.) From <@UTARLVM1.UTA.EDU:VANBROCKLIN@library.uta.edu> Tue Nov 22 20:42:55 1994 Received: from UTARLVM1.UTA.EDU (utarlvm1.uta.edu [129.107.1.6]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA19034 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 20:42:54 -0800 Received: from libmail.uta.edu by UTARLVM1.UTA.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 22 Nov 94 19:34:55 CST Received: From CENLIB/WORKQUEUE by libmail.uta.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.941122193736.384; 22 Nov 94 19:40:01 +0500 Message-ID: From: "Jackie Van Brocklin" To: John Schweizer , avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 19:37:32 CST Subject: Re: [AVAIL:163] Re: REACHING OUT !? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 > Received: From CENLIB/MAILQUEUE by libmail.uta.edu > via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 102.941122164141.320; > 22 Nov 94 16:43:53 +0500 > Received: From UTARLVM1.UTA.EDU by libmail.uta.edu > via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with SMTP id 102.941122164141.320; > 22 Nov 94 16:43:49 +0500 > Received: from virtconf.digex.net by UTARLVM1.UTA.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) > with TCP; Tue, 22 Nov 94 16:38:45 CST > Received: from (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA08375; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 17:46:23 -0800 > Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 17:46:23 -0800 > Message-Id: > Reply-To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov > Originator: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov > Sender: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov > Precedence: first-class > From: John Schweizer > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: [AVAIL:163] Re: REACHING OUT !? > X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas > X-Comment: Due to server load, all subscriptions converted to DIGESTS > X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 > > John Schweizer > San Francisco, California > > On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Don Horner wrote: > > > Will anyone recieving this message, please respond by sending E-mail to > > the above address. Plesas include your City, State. I wish to check to > > make sure I am "GETTING OUT !" Thank You! > > > > djh > > ATZ > > > > > > Hello, S.F. - I'm reading you "loud & clear." JVB Arlington, Texas (between Fort Worth & Dallas) > > > From blast@leland.Stanford.EDU Tue Nov 22 22:32:42 1994 Received: from elaine42.Stanford.EDU (blast@elaine42.Stanford.EDU [36.218.0.90]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA25544 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 22:32:41 -0800 Received: (from blast@localhost) by elaine42.Stanford.EDU (8.6.8/8.6.6) id TAA01018 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 19:24:51 -0800 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 19:24:51 -0800 From: Solomon Philip Hill Message-Id: <199411230324.TAA01018@elaine42.Stanford.EDU> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: [AVAIL:167] AVAIL digest 58   From schang@huey.csun.edu Wed Nov 23 00:49:25 1994 Received: from huey.csun.edu (huey.csun.edu [130.166.1.1]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA03892 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 00:49:24 -0800 Received: by huey.csun.edu (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA219079075; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 21:37:55 -0800 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 21:15:05 +0800 (PST) From: Sok Sun Chang Subject: How to Pay... To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov In-Reply-To: <199411230814.AAA01907@virtconf.digex.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just read Eli Noam's entry at the gopher site. I found it rather confusing. My simple suggestion would be to expect users to pay for the services or resources that they consume through any acceptable means, not limited to monetary ones. People have different worthiness and not everyone has the ability to transfer such worth to a measurable dollars presently. I think that is the source of many problems with poverty. People are different. However, there are many people like me who are excited at the possibility of boundless information availability and would not want to be left out just because of the lack of money. I am sure there are much to be done with IITF, for example or any communications provider. By partaking in the technological, social, and political improvement process, an user can become another resource, and thus may satisfy his/her dues. This means that a comprehensive method of measuring and maintaing some kind of point system (which can be earned/paid in dollars or services) is necessary. This should be doable. After all, computers are there to tally. Sok Sun Chang From hauben@columbia.edu Wed Nov 23 00:57:07 1994 Received: from aloha.cc.columbia.edu (aloha.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.40.134]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA04370; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 00:57:06 -0800 Received: by aloha.cc.columbia.edu id AA14335 (5.65c+CU/IDA-1.4.4/HLK); Wed, 23 Nov 1994 00:49:16 -0500 Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 00:49:16 -0500 From: Michael Hauben Message-Id: <199411230549.AA14335@aloha.cc.columbia.edu> To: redefus@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Cc: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Netizen Speech I think the following speech should prove interesting. It touches on both one concept of "universal access" and what is currently special about the current Net (Internet/Usenet/etc/etc) and how this should help define the "services" to be provided on the NII or GII. The following is a speech I gave to Columbia University's student ACM Chapter on 4/24/94. It is adapted from my paper titled "The Net and Netizens: The Impact the Net has on People's Lives" (available as chapter 7 of the netbook "The Netizens and the Wonderful World of the Net: An Anthology" at http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/project_book.html) Researching the "Net": A talk on The Evolution of Usenet News and The Significance of the Global Computer Network by Michael Hauben (hauben@columbia.edu) I. Welcome to the 21st Century. You are a Netizen, or a Net Citizen, and you exist as a citizen of the world thanks to the global connectivity that the Net makes possible. You consider everyone as your compatriot. You physically live in one country but you are in contact with much of the world via the global computer network. Virtually you live next door to every other single Netizen in the world. Geographical separation is replaced by existence in the same virtual space. The situation I describe is only a prediction of the future, but a large part of the necessary infrastructure currently exists. The Net - or the Internet, BITNET, FIDOnet, other physi- cal networks, Usenet, VMSnet, and other logical networks and so on - has rapidly grown to cover all of the developed countries in the world. Every day more computers attach to the existing networks and every new computer adds to the user base - at least twenty five million people are interconnected today. Why do all these people pass their time sitting in front of a computer typing away? They have very good reason to! Twenty five million people plus have very good reason not to be wrong. We are seeing a revitalization of society. The frameworks are being redesigned from the bottom up. A new more democratic world is becoming possible. According to one user, the Net has "immeasurably increased the quality of ... life." The Net seems to open a new lease on life for people. Social connections which were never before possible, or which were relatively hard to achieve, are now facilitated by the Net. Geography and time no longer are boundaries. Social limitations and conventions no longer prevent potential friendships or partnerships. In this manner Netizens are meeting other Netizens from far-away and close by that they might never have met without the Net. A new world of connections between people - either privately from individual to individual or publicly from individuals to the collective mass of many on the net - is possible. The old model of central distribution of information from the Network Broadcasting or Publication Company is being questioned and challenged. The top-down model of information being distributed by a few for mass-consumption is no longer the only News. Netnews brings the power of the reporter to the Netizen. People now have the ability to broadcast their observations or questions around the world and have other people respond. The computer networks form a new grassroots connection that allows the excluded sec- tions of society to have a voice. This new medium is unprecedent- ed. Previous grassroots media have existed for much smaller- sized selections of people. The model of the Net proves the old way does not have to be the only way of networking. The Net extends the idea of networking - of making connections with strangers that prove to be advantageous to one or both parties. The complete connection of the body of citizens of the world that the Net makes possible does not exist as of today, and it will definitely be a fight to make access to the Net open and available to all. However, in the future we might be seeing the possible expansion of what it means to be a social animal. Practically every single individual on the Net today is available to every other person on the Net. International connection coexists on the same level with local connection. Also the computer networks allow a more advanced connection between the people who are communicating. With computer-communication sys- tems, information or thoughts are connected to people's names and electronic-mail addresses. On the Net, one can connect to others who have similar interests or whose thought processes they enjoy. Netizens make it a point to be helpful and friendly - if they feel it to be worthwhile. Many Netizens feel they have an obligation to be helpful and answer queries and followup on discussions to put their opinion into the pot of opinions. Over a period of time the voluntary contributions to the Net have built it into a useful connection to other people around the world. The Net can be a helpful medium to understand the world. Only by seeing all points of view can any one person attempt to figure out either their own position on a topic or in the end, the truth. Net Society differs from off-line society by welcoming intellectual activity. People are encouraged to have things on their mind and to present those ideas to the Net. People are allowed to be intellectually interesting and interested. This intellectual activity forms a major part of the on-line informa- tion that is carried by the various computer networks. Netizens can interact with other people to help add to or alter that information. Brain-storming between varieties of people produces robust thinking. Information is no longer a fixed commodity or resource on the Nets. It is constantly being added to and im- proved collectively. The Net is a grand intellectual and social commune in the spirit of the collective nature present at the origins of human society. Netizens working together continually expand the store of information worldwide. One person called the Net an untapped resource because it provides an alternative to the normal channels and ways of doing things. The Net allows for the meeting of minds to form and develop ideas. It brings people's thinking processes out of isolation and into the open. Every user of the Net gains the role of being special and useful. The fact that every user has his or her own opinions and interests adds to the general body of specialized knowledge on the Net. Each Netizen thus becomes a special resource valuable to the Net. Each user contributes to the whole intellectual and social value and possibilities of the Net. -- II. Licklider, the Visionary The world of the Netizen was envisioned some twenty five years ago by J.C.R. Licklider and Robert Taylor in their article "The Computer as a Communication Device" (Science and Technology, April 1968). Licklider brought to his leadership of the US Depart- ment of Defense's Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) a vision of "the intergalactic computer network." Whenever he would speak of ARPA, he would mention this vision. J.C.R. Licklider was a prophet of the Net. In his article Licklider establishes several helpful principles which would make the computer play a helpful role in human communication. These principles were: 1) Communication is defined as an interactive creative process. 2) Response times need to be short to make the "conversation" free and easy. 3) The larger network would form out of smaller regional networks. 4) Communities would form out of affinity and common interests. Licklider focused on the Net comprising of a network of networks. While other researchers of the time focused on the sharing of computing resources, Licklider kept an open mind and wrote: "...The collection of people, hardware, and software - the multi-access computer together with its local community of users - will become a node in a geographi- cally distributed computer network.....Through the network, therefore, all the large computers can commu- nicate with one another. And through them, all the mem- bers of the supercommunity can communicate - with other people, with programs, with data, or with a selected combinations of those resources." (32) Licklider's understandings from his 1968 paper have stood the test of time, and do represent what the Net is today. His concept of the sharing of both computing and human resources accurately describes today's Net. The networking of various human connections quickly forms, changes its goals, disbands and reforms into new collaborations. The fluidity of such group dynamics leads to a quickening of the creation of new ideas. Groups can form to discuss an idea, focus in or broaden out and reform to fit the new ideas that have resulted from the process. The virtual space created on non-commercial computer net- works is accessible universally. This space is accessible from the connections that exist; whereas social networks in the physical world generally are connected only by limited gateways. So the capability of networking on computer nets overcomes limitations inherent in non-computer social networks. This is important because it reduces the problems of population growth. Population growth no longer means limited. Rather that very growth of population now means an improvement of resources. Thus growth of population can be seen as a positive asset. This is a new way of looking at people in our society. Every new person can mean a new set of perspectives and specialties to add to the wealth of knowledge of the world. This new view of people could help improve the view of the future. The old model looks down on population growth and people as a strain on the environment rather than the increase of intellectual contribution these individuals can make. However, access to the Net needs to be universal for the Net to fully utilize the contribution each person can represent. Once access is limited, the Net and those on the Net lose the full possible advantages the Net can offer. Lastly the people on the Net need to be active in order to bring about the best possible use of the Network. Licklider foresaw that the Net allows for people of common interests, who are otherwise strangers, to communicate. Much of the magic of the Net is the ability to make a contribution of your ideas, and then be connected to utter strangers. He saw that people would connect to others via this net in ways that had been much harder in the past. Licklider observed as the ARPANET spanned two continents. This physical connection allowed for wider social collaborations to form. This was the beginning of Computer Data networks facilitating connections of people around the world. My research on and about the Net has been and continues to be very exciting for me. When I posted my inquiries, I usually received the first reply within a couple of hours. The feeling of receiving that very first reply from a total stranger is always exhilarating! That set of first replies from people reminds me of the magic of E-Mail. It is nice that there can be reminders of how exciting it all is - so that the value of this new use of computers is never forgotten. III. CRITICAL MASS The Net has grown so much in the last 25 years, that a critical mass of people and interests has been reached. This collection of individuals adds to the interests and specialties of the whole community. Most people can now gain something from the Net, while at the same time helping it out. A critical mass has developed on the net. Enough people exist that the whole is now greater than any one individual and thus makes the Net worthwhile to be part of. People are meshing intellects and knowledge to form new ideas. Larry Press made this clear by writing: "I now work on the Net at least 2 hours per day. I've had an account since around 1975 but it has only become super important in the last couple of years because a critical mass of membership was reached. I no longer work in LA, but in cyberspace." Many inhabitants of the Net feel that only the most techni- cally inclined people use the Net. This is not true, as many different kinds of people are now connected to the Net. While the original users of the Net were from exclusively technical and scientific communities, many of them found it a valuable experi- ence to explore the Net for more than just technical reasons. The nets, in their early days, were only available in a few parts the world. Now however, people of all ages, from most parts of the globe, and of many professions, make up the Net. The original prototype networks (e.g.: ARPAnet in the USA, NPL in the United Kingdom, CYCLADES in France and other networks around the world) developed the necessary physical infrastructure for a fertile social network to develop. Einar Stefferud wrote of this social connection in an article, "The ARPANET has produced several monumental results. It provided the physical and electrical communications backbone for development of the latent social infrastructure we now call 'THE INTERNET COMMUNITY.'" (ConneXions, Oct. 1989 vol 3 No. 10. pg.21) Many different kinds of people comprise the Net. The Univer- sity Community sponsors access for a broad range of people (students, professors, staff, professor emeritus, and so on). Programmers, engineers and researchers from many companies are connected. A K-12 Net exists within the lower grades of education which helps to invite young people to be a part of our community. Special Bulletin Board software (for example Waffle) exists to connect Personal Computer users to the Net. Various Unix bulletin board systems exist to connect other users. It is impossible to tell exactly who connects to public bulletin board systems, as only an inexpensive computer (or terminal) and modem are required to connect. Many common bulletin board systems (for example fido board) have at least e-mail and many also participate through a gateway to Netnews. Prototype Community Network Systems are forming around the world (e.g.: In Cleveland - the cleveland Freenet, In New Zealand - the Wellington Citynet, In California, the Santa Monica Public Electronic Network, etc) Access via these community systems can be as easy as visiting the community library and membership is open to all who live in the community. In addition to the living body of resources this diversity of Netizens represent, there is also a continually growing body of digitized data that forms a set of resources. Whether it is Netizens digitizing great literature of the past (e.g.: the Gutenberg Project), or it is people gathering otherwise obscure or non-mainstream material (e.g.: Various Religions, unusual hobbies, fringe and cult materials, and so on), or if it is Netizens contributing new and original material (e.g.: the Amateur Computerist Newsletter), the net follows in the great tradition of other public bottom-up institutions, such as the public library or the principle behind public education. The Net shares with these institutions that they serve the general populace. This data is just part of the treasure. Often living Netizens provide pointers to this digitized store of publicly available information. Many of the network access tools have been programmed with the principle of being available to every- one. The best example is the method of connecting to file reposi- tories via FTP (file transfer protocol) by logging in as an "anonymous" user. Most (if not all) World Wide Web Sites, Wide Area Information Systems (WAIS), and gopher sites are open for all users of the Net. It is true that the current membership of the Net Community is smaller than it will be, but the net has reached a point of general usefulness no matter who you are. All of this evidence is exactly why there could be prob- lems if the Net comes under the control of commercial entities. Once commercial interests gain control, the Net will be much less powerful for the ordinary person than it is currently. Commercial interests vary from those of the common person. They attempt to make profit from any available means. Compuserve is an example of one current commercial network. A user of Compuserve pays for access by the minute. If this scenero would be extended to the Net of which I speak, the Netiquite of being helpful would have a price tag attached to it. If people had had to pay by the minute during the Net's development, very few would have been able to afford the network time needed to be helpful to others. The Net has only developed because of the hard work and voluntary dedication of many people. It has grown because the Net is under the control and power of the people at a bottom-level, and because these people have over the years made a point to make it something worthwhile. People's posts and contributions to the Net have been the developing forces. IV. Network as a New Democratic Force For the people of the World, the Net provides a powerful way of peaceful assembly. Peaceful Assembly allows for people to take control over their lives, rather than that control being in the hands of others. This power has to be honored and protected. Any medium or tool that helps people to hold or gain power is some- thing that is special and has to be protected. (See "The Computer as Democratizer", Amateur Computerist Newsletter, Vol 4, No 5, Fall 1992) J.C.R. Licklider believed that access to the then growing information network should be made ubiquitous. He felt that the Net's value would depend on high connectivity. In his article, "The Computer as a Communication Device", Licklider argues that the impact upon society depends on how available the network is to the society as a whole. He wrote: "For the society, the impact will be good or bad depending mainly on the question: Will `to be on line' be a privilege or a right? If only a favored segment of the population gets a chance to enjoy the advantage of `intelligence amplification,' the network may exaggerate the discontinuity in the spectrum of intellectual opportunity." The Net has made a valuable impact to human society. I have heard from many people how their lives have been substantially improved via their connection to the Net. This enhancement of people's lives provides the incentive needed for providing access to all in society. Society will improve if net access is made available to people as a whole. Only if access is universal will the Net itself truly advance. The ubiquitous connection is neces- sary for the Net to encompass all possible resources. One Net visionary responded to my research by calling for universal access. Steve Welch wrote: "If we can get to the point where anyone who gets out of high school alive has used computers to communicate on the Net or a reasonable facsimile or successor to it, then we as a society will benefit in ways not currently understandable. When access to information is as ubiquitous as access to the phone system, all hell will break loose. Bet on it." Steve is right, "all hell will break loose" in the most positive of ways imaginable. The philosophers Thomas Paine, Jean Jacques Rousseau, and all other fighters for democracy would have been proud. Similar to past communications advances such as the printing press, mail, and the telephone, the Global Computer Communica- tions Network has already fundementally changed our lives. Licklider predicted that the Net would fundamentally change the way people live and work. It is important to try to understand this impact, so as to help further this advance. From schang@huey.csun.edu Wed Nov 23 01:25:46 1994 Received: from huey.csun.edu (huey.csun.edu [130.166.1.1]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA06091 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 01:25:45 -0800 Received: by huey.csun.edu (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA251681255; Tue, 22 Nov 1994 22:14:15 -0800 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 22:13:04 +0800 (PST) From: Sok Sun Chang Subject: [AVAIL:670]How to Pay To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Sok Sun Chang To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: How to Pay... Just read Eli Noam's entry at the gopher site. I found it rather confusing. My simple suggestion would be to expect users to pay for the services or resources that they consume through any acceptable means, not limited to monetary ones. People have different worthiness and not everyone has the ability to transfer such worth to a measurable dollars presently. I think that is the source of many problems with poverty. People are different. However, there are many people like me who are excited at the possibility of boundless information availability and would not want to be left out just because of the lack of money. I am sure there are much to be done with IITF, for example or any communications provider. By partaking in the technological, social, and political improvement process, an user can become another resource, and thus may satisfy his/her dues. This means that a comprehensive method of measuring and maintaing some kind of point system (which can be earned/paid in dollars or services) is necessary. This should be doable. After all, computers are there to tally. Sok Sun Chang From az908@freenet.carleton.ca Wed Nov 23 01:32:43 1994 Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (az908@freenet.carleton.ca [134.117.1.25]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA06539; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 01:32:43 -0800 Received: (az908@localhost) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.6.9/8.6.4) id BAA12542; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 01:24:56 -0500 Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 01:24:56 -0500 Message-Id: <199411230624.BAA12542@freenet.carleton.ca> From: az908@freenet.carleton.ca (Paul Holden) To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov, privacy@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Universal access and the Feds... Reply-To: az908@freenet.carleton.ca Yesterday, the Vice-Chair of the Blue Sky FreeNet in Manitoba, Canada made a presentation to the monthly meeting of the Victoria FreNet (BC, Canada). He explained briefly how the Blue Sky FreeNet was set up and run. Blue Sky FreeNet is providing access to all of Manitoba, no extra costs to small rural areas, no LD charges. How? They have basically a hub, in each of the different calling areas, each with a connection the the MBNet backbone, in one for or another. Some places will be piggybacking on CBC radio waves, others on satelite connections, some on fiber optics. Of course, the fact that Manitoba was the site for fiber optics testing 20 years ago, helps! :) Each hub costs about $7 200 to set up. They even have Aboriginal Tribes hooked up that don't even have a road to access by car! They convinced USRobotics to sell them over 1000 modems at cost, and give a special deal to users of $100. These are all 28.8 Sportsters! The phone lines are costing them only $20/month (a reductin of $50 from the usual cost of $70). This was helped by the fact that Manitoba Telcom is a Crown Corp. and so they donated (in a roundabout sort of way) all the phone lines. (Knowing full well, that they would also benefit, because a lot of people would soon get a second line for their modem :) The total cost for this project set up, over 3 years (which has just started, but continues to evolve) is 17.4 million. Some of the funding comes form the Ministry of Education since they wanted to connect their schools, as well as other government Ministries. Each hub is run independantly, with people cordinating all of them together. Guess what? The Information Highway Advisory Council had nothing to do with this, neither did annoying Cable Companies! This is just a sampling of a very amazing and substantial accomplishment, I can't accuratly tell you everything that we were told last night. telnet to winnie.freenet.mb.ca and check out the Blue Sky FreeNet! Ask them questions, they're more than willing to give advice, they said so last night! Bye, -- Paul Holden "Float like a butterfly, az908@freenet.carleton.ca sting like a bee." From innd@virtconf.digex.net Wed Nov 23 02:21:30 1994 Received: (from news@localhost) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id CAA09508 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 02:21:30 -0800 Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 02:21:30 -0800 From: innd@virtconf.digex.net Message-Id: <199411231021.CAA09508@virtconf.digex.net> Reply-To: innd@virtconf.digex.net To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: UseNet-News Control: rmgroup alt.ntia.avail Newsgroups: alt.ntia.avail.ctl Path: virtconf!miwok!well!pacbell.com!att-out!rutgers!dziuxsolim.rutgers.edu!uunet!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!exit.com!netcom.com!hagie From: hagie@netcom.com (Scott Hagie) Subject: cmsg rmgroup alt.ntia.avail Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <3ajr3c$6u12@ag.oro.net> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 21:32:18 GMT Approved: hagie@netcom.com Lines: 16 Scott Jennings (smj@smudge.oro.net) wrote: : These groups were created : a mere four days ahead of schedule. Path: netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.ed u!caen!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!torn!uunet.ca!uunet.ca!torfree!gts! feline!halt!scrumptious!canards!oro.net!smudge.oro.net!smj Another Becker forgery. Scott -- Scott Hagie - hagie@netcom.com - Sierra Madre, Ca. Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors. From ntiagate@virgin.uvi.edu Wed Nov 23 06:46:16 1994 Received: from virgin.uvi.edu (virgin.uvi.edu [146.226.200.110]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA25258 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 06:46:12 -0800 Received: from localhost (ntiagate@localhost) by virgin.uvi.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) id HAA08410 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 07:26:31 -0400 Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 11:26:24 GMT From: pdeblanc@virgin.uvi.edu (Peter deBlanc) Message-ID: <1994Nov23.112624.8341@virgin.uvi.edu> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [AVAIL:139] AVAIL digest 38 : Topics covered in this issue include: : 1) Re: [AVAIL:113] AVAIL digest 21 : by Brian Larkin : 2) Re: Universal access : by mkessel@world.std.com (Martin Kessel) : ---------------------------------------------------------------------- : Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 23:14:33 -0500 (EST) : From: Brian Larkin : To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov : Cc: Multiple recipients of list : Subject: Re: [AVAIL:113] AVAIL digest 21 : Message-ID: : There have been many eloquent and passionate opinions expressed here : regarding the potential role of public libraries and schools in providing : access to the Internet. One major difficulty is that the hours during : which such institutions are available to the public are precisely those : hours when the net is already busiest. Imagine 30,000,000 more daily : users during peak hours! : ------------------------------ : Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 00:33:43 -0500 : From: mkessel@world.std.com (Martin Kessel) : To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov : Subject: Re: Universal access : Message-ID: <199411200533.AA28596@world.std.com> : On Thu, 17 Nov 94 Chris Silker wrote: : I hate to disillusion you, but the university community is among the : technological elite. Until recently university faculty and students were : the only ones with access to the Internet, and are still the only ones with : free access. In the U.S. Virgin Islands, the V.I.P. FreeNet provides free access to the Internet. : Finally, for those who do not have computers or even telephones, there must : be publicly accessible sites in libraries and other community sites. The V.I.P. FreeNet provides public access terminals in ever expanding locations. Terminals will be deployed in schools, libraries, shopping malls, the airport, and the cruise ship dock. Private sector organizations, civic groups, and sponsors/underwriters can provide this access if some group takes it upon themselves to organize it. For example, here in the U.S. Virgin Islands, the FreeNet is organized by the Rotary Club, local public television, and a private sector computer consulting firm that donates technical services. The government does not have to provide the last mile access. Perhaps the most cost effective thing tax dollars could do is provide some matching grants to ONE ENTITY in every local area to assist in last-mile public access. This could be done using the already established format of Public Television (Corporation for Public Broadcasting), where some matching funds are supplied based on the dollar amount of local inputs. -- Peter J. de Blanc Octagon Consultants Int'l, Inc. ab001@virgin.uvi.edu P.O. Box 1678, St. Thomas, VI 00804 VIP FreeNet Organizer Voice (809)776-4800 Fax (809)776-2666 From jkharms@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu Wed Nov 23 08:44:56 1994 Received: from osiris.cso.uiuc.edu (osiris.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.51]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA02413 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 08:44:55 -0800 Received: by osiris.cso.uiuc.edu id AA18105 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Wed, 23 Nov 1994 07:36:32 -0600 From: "John K. Harms" Message-Id: <199411231336.AA18105@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu> Subject: Re: [AVAIL:156] Nonprofits and the Internet To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 07:36:31 -0600 (CST) Cc: jkharms@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu (John K. Harms) In-Reply-To: <9411220927.AA20655@slick.chage.com> from "Carl Hage" at Nov 22, 94 07:26:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 6669 > > >From: "W. Curtiss Priest" > .. > [Re: Educational Products Information Exchange] > >When the director approached people in the White house about finding > >support, one person asked -- if the information is valuable, why aren't > >you able to see it on the Internet? > > An interesting response. I'm surprised that someone in the White house > would say that, because my expectations of the government's involvement > in the Internet is very new. Actually, I think that is a very relevant > response. The Internet would seem to be a very logical place for > this type of information. > > My guess is that the real reason is that too few of the 100,000 K12 > schools have basic internet access. > > >So many reasons. We lack pay mechanisms on the Internet. Information > >useful for procuring software is needed by teachers and administrators > >who cannot pay $129 for the information on CD-ROM because of budget > >cuts. The value to society of information about software and reviews > >from 50 magazines is underappreciated and the herd instinct causes > >a feeding frenzy over some 20-30 products that are continually written > >up in popular computer magazines, as the other 16,000 products are > >mostly ignored. > > I guess I would disagree that the reason is that we lack payment > mechanisms or even that we do. Sales via credit card is common. Shareware > is another common payment mechanism. Distribution costs on the internet > are near 0, especially for the k12 usenet newsgroups. One or a few people, > e.g. the staff of EPIE, can organize information produced from a large > number of people, combining information from the authors of educational > products with the reviews and comments from actual users (not just a paid > reviewer). > > Maybe the Educational Products Information Exchange *should* move > to the Internet. I don't see how this nonprofit relates to government > policy, except perhaps the focus on "high-end" technology. > Maybe you are saying, "Why is the government (or telecom companies) > funding expensive equipment like video to schools when they can`t > afford $129 to help them locate educational materials for a used > computer?" > > Perhaps the schools would rather pay for a $30 magazine with 30 > products rather than a $129 CD. > > It seems to me that nonprofits get much of thier revenue from > contributions, e.g. membership fees. The internet offers a fantastic > opportunity for nonprofits as the mainstream public begins to use > it. Communication, a main resource for nonprofits, is very inexpensive > using the internet. I would really like to see more nonprofits > opening up and offering information freely accessable via internet. > In too many cases, e.g. apc.org, they are a closed society which > require membership payments before allowing access to thier information. > > I am deluged with expensive junk mail, greeting cards, calendars, etc. > for nonprofits which send stuff and ask for money. Yet, it is very > difficult to find much about them. I would rather see what they do > and see them providing a service, and then I am more likely to give > a contribution if I think what they are doing is worthwhile. > > >And remember, the less traditional the nonprofit cause, the harder it > >is for a nonprofit to survive! The United Way or AARP are heavily > >supported, but these instutions do not usually share these funds > >with a vanguard nonprofit. In 1988 we felt fortunate to get all of > >$5000 from AARP to study the possibilities of distance learning for > >older Americans. But we were unsuccessful in convincing AARP that > >they had a role in helping shape that future! They mainly wanted to > >inform their members of what the business sector would be providing. > > This sounds like a need for one of those community "centers" to educate > the public for demand pull. What about senior net? Maybe you should just > keep trying, write some articles for AARP and get some seniors > using computers! > > >We are not suggesting that this administration support any nonprofit > >that hangs out their shingle, but to listen better to understand > >what various nonprofits can provide in the development of our mutual > >information future -- and leverage! their activities in assuring > >accessibility and universal service. > > I can't figure out what you are asking for. I would say that nonprofits > can contribute a great deal to the "community" brought together by the > NII. The government and telecom providers can help nonprofits participate > in the NII by helping them obtain access. This could be accomplished > for example, by grants of equipment, etc. to universities, community nets, > or other nonprofits, etc. who in turn provide network access and > support services to other nonprofit community service organizations. > > There is a substantial amount of support for internet access to > nonprofits. In the old days, e.g. a few years ago, email and netnews was > usually free, as one company typically passed along mail for another, kind > of like a favor. Now with more general access to the public, one > usually must pay, but in return companies provide support service. > Nonprofits can still get internet access if they know how to ask > and how to setup thier computers. > > Perhaps the Center for Information, Technology, & Society can help > other nonprofits become network literate and join the world of > cyberspace. The government could help nonprofits by using some of > the NII research to fund educational materials and starter kits > which are appropriate for schools and nonprofits, e.g. very low budget > access using donated computers. > > I think a significant policy issue for the NII Advisory Council is that we > need an infrastructure to support the low-end, low budget needs of the > nonprofits and K-12 schools. The title of the "HPPC" is fundamentally > wrong. We don't need high performance gigabit networking, but we do need > high access. Let's redirect some of the funding for high end technology > into getting the mainstream public onto the net. Instead of funding an > hour of video between two users, we should use the money to let 100,000 > users send an email message! > You've raised two interesting problems which might have a mutual solution: The lack of funds for educational institutions to get computer equipment and the growing solid waste problem from discarded hardware and peripherals. Maybe the appropriate role for government is to held wed the person who's about the throw the computer away and the person who'd be glad to pay salvage value for it. JOHN HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!! From hn3010@handsnet.org Wed Nov 23 09:37:52 1994 Received: from sword.connectinc.com (sword.connectinc.com [192.216.44.1]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA05624 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 09:37:50 -0800 From: hn3010@handsnet.org Received: by sword.connectinc.com (4.0/Connect-Internet-Gateway) for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov id AA14414; Wed, 23 Nov 94 06:30:39 -0800 Date: Wed, 23 Nov 94 06:30:39 -0800 Message-Id: <9411231430.AA14414@sword.connectinc.com> Subject: RH [AVAIL-174] AVAIL digest 62 INTERNET 4k Nov 23I To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov I agree with your comments regarding availability. Those of us who are scattered around the country in rural areas have little or no access to the InterNet. One other point that is very cruial to further development of the system centers around the development of what I would term a standardized telephone system in each town. In our rural area, many towns cannot even access a touch tone phone system, yet. In some towns, it will actually take 25 minutes to place a call--I timed it the other day whenever I was trying to place an emergency call. The InterNet has been an excellent resource for a small agency such as ours and has dramatically brought our operations and efficiency into the modern world. Vernon Bond HN3010@handsnet.org Sent: November 23, 1994 6:17 am PT From jhav@cleo.bc.edu Wed Nov 23 09:54:50 1994 Received: from cleo.bc.edu (cleo.bc.edu [136.167.2.122]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA06572 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 09:54:50 -0800 From: jhav@cleo.bc.edu Received: from onra01p4.bc.edu by cleo.bc.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA10538; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 09:36:31 -0500 Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 21:48:53 +0000 Subject: Re: AVAIL digest 61 To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov In-Reply-To: <199411231058.CAA11892@virtconf.digex.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sok Sun Chang writes: >People have different worthiness and not everyone has the >ability to transfer such worth to a measurable dollars presently. > > [deleted] > >This means that a comprehensive method of measuring and maintaing some >kind of point system (which can be earned/paid in dollars or services) is >necessary. This should be doable. After all, computers are there to tally. > >Sok Sun Chang But what you propose is still money, just another currency. Do we need two currencies? Besides, if there is an exchange rate between the two (or if dollars/work earns you points) then that is effectively putting a dollar amount on what you indicate cannot be measured in dollars. I think the difference lies in your dislike of what the market values in general, however points will not solve your perceived inequality unless they are given out, not earned. But giving out points is the same as giving people a dollar-amount voucher for net use. R.J. From jamesm@satyrs.engr.CSUFresno.EDU Wed Nov 23 11:36:44 1994 Received: from satyrs.engr.CSUFresno.EDU ([129.8.117.1]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA12873 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 11:36:43 -0800 Received: from tartan.engr.csufresno.edu by satyrs.engr.CSUFresno.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13909; Wed, 23 Nov 94 08:28:46 PST Date: Wed, 23 Nov 94 08:28:46 PST From: jamesm@satyrs.engr.CSUFresno.EDU (James Martin) Message-Id: <9411231628.AA13909@satyrs.engr.CSUFresno.EDU> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: 5 x 9 x 9 here, OM Cc: jamesm Reading you loud & clear here, old man. I neglected, in my initial response, to say that I am in Fresno, the proctological center of CALIFORNIA. or was that "ack" ( xmitted 1994 Nov 22 14:40:57 ) your way of saying, "Alright, already, no more responses, PLEASE!!!"? From glidedw@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu Wed Nov 23 14:56:40 1994 Received: from sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.102]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA24990 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 14:56:39 -0800 Received: (from glidedw@localhost) by sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) id LAA25513; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 11:48:47 -0800 Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 11:48:45 -0800 (PST) From: Glide Computers and You Subject: Minority Issues, and Concerns To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To: National Info' Superhighway Conference From: J. B. Saunders, Executive Director African-American Resource Machine 995 Market Street, Third Floor San Francisco, CA 94103 (415) 247-8777 As a North American African man, I am well aware of the lack of services available for socio-economically deprived people. In our technological age, basic telephone service is not even available to a majority of Blackmen in America, and were it not for Glide Church, and Rev. Cecil Williams, telecommunications would be a service that would never be accessible to the poor and downtrodden population in San Francisco (one of the most affluent and technologically advanced cities in the world). Mahatma Gandhi once stated: "A body of taxpayers can be deprived of their inherent right to use what is, after all, their own property in common with the rest. This is not a question of sentiment but one of deliberate deprivation of rights which have been paid for...." At Glide's computer learning facility, a person with little or no money can receive advanced training in computer science that will empower them to compete in the job market, and become a contributing member in our highly competitive society. The Computers and You program at Glide is a model for our government to follow. Through my participation in the computer training program at Glide, I am realizing my dream of developing my own information and resource networking organization: the African-American Resource Machine. What I'd like to do is connect with funding sources, acquire a computer setup, and get an office space, that would allow me to network with Blackmen in particular (the most "at-risk" population in our society), and other "hard-to-serve" populations in general. Poor people need as much help as they can get, so that they can eventually help themselves. It is my opinion that the government should provide universal service to the Info' Superhighway, enabling everyone to have access. I would like to receive responses to my communication from anyone who hears, understands, and appreciates what I'm saying; especially if you can be of help to me in my endevor to become successful and break free from the revolving door cycle of pain and poverty. And anyone wishing to write to me may do so at the above-listed address. I am interested in interacting with people regardless of race, sexual- orientation, creed, and/or color. Thank you. From vcavail@latte.spl.lib.wa.us Wed Nov 23 15:55:19 1994 Received: from rs6a.wln.com (rs6a.wln.com [192.156.252.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA28495 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 15:54:36 -0800 Received: from latte.spl.lib.wa.us by rs6a.wln.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.06) id AA71679; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 12:43:43 -0800 Received: by latte.spl.lib.wa.us; (5.65/1.1.8.2/30Oct94-0722PM) id AA05365; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 12:46:31 -0800 Received: by latte.spl.lib.wa.us; (5.65/1.1.8.2/30Oct94-0722PM) id AA05357; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 12:46:30 -0800 Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 12:46:30 -0800 (PST) From: Affordabilty and Availability To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Affordability Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have been "playing" at the Internet for several months, first at SCN then on NW Nexus. Obviously, SCN has been wonderful, since it has allowed me to learn at my own (slow!) pace, without worrying about "wasting money". I am presently on NW Nexus, since I purchased the Internet Starter Kit which came with a coupon for 2 free weeks. I am continuing to pay for it, for a while, because it allows so much m more opportunity to learn all the plusses of the Internet. Also, I can telnet into SCN, quickly and without the busy signals, and multiple "steps" (menu after menu) to get in. I am willing to pay the monthly fee for a short time, but unfortunately, I am not in a financial position to be able to continue at this rate for very long. It seems a shame that those of us who are not "well off" cannot reap the benefit of the whole Internet. I am grateful that SCN is there for us. ### "The above message was sent from the Seattle Public Library public access point. Though the Library is pleased to make this service available, The views expressed in this message do not necessarily represent the position of the Seattle Public Library." From hage@netcom.com Wed Nov 23 16:13:26 1994 Received: from netcom8.netcom.com (hage@netcom8.netcom.com [192.100.81.117]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA29607 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 16:13:24 -0800 Received: by netcom8.netcom.com (8.6.9/Netcom) id NAA26087; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 13:05:48 -0800 Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 13:05:48 -0800 From: hage@netcom.com (Carl Hage) Message-Id: <199411232105.NAA26087@netcom8.netcom.com> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: [AVAIL:139] AVAIL digest 38 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] One thing to keep in mind is that digital transmission of text, e.g. email is very efficient. For each user who sends email instead of fax or telephone call, hundreds of additional users can send email in the transmission resource saved. Also, there is currenty unused fiber in the long distance trunks, i.e. "dark" fiber. We can easily add more resource as needed. If users had to pay the same rate for email as the same amount of data required for long distance telephone, email would still be very cheap. Access of gopher or www text is similar to email in effiency. Pictures, voice/audio and video are, of course, much more expensive. From hage@netcom.com Wed Nov 23 17:24:20 1994 Received: from netcom8.netcom.com (hage@netcom8.netcom.com [192.100.81.117]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA04066 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 17:24:19 -0800 Received: by netcom8.netcom.com (8.6.9/Netcom) id OAA05947; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 14:16:43 -0800 Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 14:16:43 -0800 From: hage@netcom.com (Carl Hage) Message-Id: <199411232216.OAA05947@netcom8.netcom.com> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: [AVAIL:156] AVAIL digest 52 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] : Regarding Carl's comments about getting revenues for educational consumer : information, I think the comments are thoughtful but not practical. The point I wanted to make was that the internet offers many new possibilities for nonprofits and even individuals to reach out to each other to share information and a advocate a cause. In fact, consumer information is an ideal use of the internet. Some examples are restaurant and movie reviews, recipes, etc. in various newsgroups and archive servers. Getting information on ISDN products and services is nearly impossible from the usual sources (64Kb digital phone service), but a single volunteer has created a WWW page organizing virtually all products, services, and standards in existence. The catch is that not everyone knows about internet and where to look. This is particularly a problem for K12 and nonprofits. As usage grows, this will be less of a significant issue. However, organizations like yours can make a significant difference. The government (NII project) could also make a big difference in educating the public and publicizing the use of the internet to disseminate information and communicate. They are doing a pretty bad job now, in my opinion, by the vague futuristic references to a "Superhighway". The government should stop using these metophors, start using the term "Internet" to refer to the NII, and start publicizing that they are and will be using the Internet to make information available, and how it will be important for everyone, business, governments, education, and individuals, will want to get access. [NTIA reviers: Please take note of the above.] : As evidence I cite today's Boston Globe's article "Internet losses: : The traditional rules don't apply in running on-line enterprises." : Here the front page article describes many attempts of for profits : in trying to use the Internet to make money. The first story was about : Laura Fillmore who bought the electronic rights to one of Stephen King's : short stories. "If she could persuade just a tiny fraction of all those : Internet cruisers to pay $5 to download the King story, 'I figured it : would do very well.'" How many bought it -- "only dozens" This didn't : even pay for the effort of putting it up, let alone profit. I'm not sure the story drew the appropriate conclusion. The traditional rule says that if you offer a product or service that noone wants or is priced too high, you won't sell. Internet user's aren't stupid, and reading off a computer screen certainly isn't as convientient as a paperback book. If I can buy a paperback for $5 at the grocery store, why go to all that trouble to buy off the internet? If King makes a $.50 royalty, and it costs a penny or two to publish on the internet, does $5 make sense? It makes sense for King to sell it himself and charge $1. He gets twice the royalty, and users pay 1/5 the price. I continually see ignorant buinesses cropping up on the internet, assuming the internet market works just like the paper world. For example, the "Advertise on the Internet Here" announcements from companies selling space for a WWW page for $60 per page per month (the worst was $25,000!). The usual internet accounts for $20/mo come with disk space for more than 1000 pages and additional space is a few pennies per page. Just because these ripoff businesses fail doesn't mean there are no opportunitites available. The rules do change though. Consider a radical new marketing technique used by mcom.com to introduce netscape, thier new WWW browser. They offered a beta noncommercial version for free. Within the first week they became the most popular browser in use, capturing a huge market share. When they come out with the commercial version with more features, they can sell direct to end users with virtually no advertising budget. Even if only 50% of the users pay they still come out way ahead! Similar kinds of radical changes will occur, in my opinion, in the commercial ventures which will succeed. I don't think we can predict them now, except to say that big changes will occur. The particularly applies to non-profits. To be successful on the internet, they will need to radically rethink thier way of doing business. In order to fare better in the grant review process, the internet is a very good place to become better known to the peer groups involved in reviewing a grant. You also get participation and suggestions from others and can leverage off thier work. The internet is a very open community, and it is easy to get involved. (Too easy, as I spend too much time getting involved in too many places.) I would guess the NSF and reviewers might be pretty net-aware, though I would suspect the NTIA grants are probably issued by those who don't use internet heavily or participate in the discussions there. (Anyone from the NTIA want to speak up?) I think it is great for the NTIA to begin leveraging off the NII now by hosting this conference. I suggest that the NTIA and other organizations continue and expand usage of the internet as a valueable tool. In terms of grants the agencies could make the proposals available and solicit general comments from the public where appropriate, and use that to supplement the existing process. That might make for a more fair distribution. Grants tend to be issued to those who are best at writing (or know where to apply) applications and are with the "in" crowd, not necessarily those who are most worthy. Better and more open communications is the key to improving the process. : This brings me back to the point of my last piece. There needs to be : a federal mechanism to fund higher risk, innovative proposals. This : can only occur when more people who are "low self-monitors" are actually : involved in the project (see Boston Globe, 11/14/94 "Toeing the line up : corporate ladder, p. 29.) It might be difficult to ask that funding go to projects that reviewers deem ower prioity, just based on risk. However it is reasonable that there needs to be a mechanism to improve the process, and improve the guidelines for the reviewers so arguments such as yours can be heard. Hosting open discussion on a newsgroup or mailing list is a very effective way to accomplish this. : That article notes that many firms such as IBm, Eastman-Kodak, General : Motors, and Digital Equipment Corporation have had so much trouble adapting : to changing circumstances because they are populated with "high self-monitors" : -- people who adapt themselves to those above them so that they are liked. : They cite Steve Jobs "as a maverick who left one corporate employer because : top managers there were't interested in his vision of a user-friendly personal : computer." And we know how that story goes. The revolution of the information age brought upon by the NII will cause a radical change in business and in government. Those who adapt will survive and prosper. I really don't think we will end up with separate classses, e.g. in the industrial revolution we created the working class and the gentry. In the information age, I believe the GII will decrease the gaps between the haves and have-nots. That applies to countries as well. The result is that everyone will be better off, and especially the earth as a whole when the public at large has the information accessable to deal with managing our gobal ecosystem. : As you can tell, I am a low self-monitor. It may mean I never see : a dollar from NTIA. I have, instead, been quite outspoken about : ways in which we think the process can be improved (and I have rent : and a family to think about). I believe it is good when more people are outspoken. The true key to the GII is that everyone can be. : | W. Curtiss Priest, Ph.D. *********************** | -Carl From hage@netcom.com Wed Nov 23 17:49:17 1994 Received: from netcom13.netcom.com (hage@netcom13.netcom.com [192.100.81.125]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA05726 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 17:49:16 -0800 Received: by netcom13.netcom.com (8.6.9/Netcom) id OAA12380; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 14:41:40 -0800 Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 14:41:39 -0800 (PST) From: Carl Hage Subject: What happens when usage expands? To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII : There have been many eloquent and passionate opinions expressed here " : regarding the potential role of public libraries and schools in providing " : access to the Internet. One major difficulty is that the hours during " : which such institutions are available to the public are precisely those " : hours when the net is already busiest. Imagine 30,000,000 more daily " : users during peak hours!" One thing to keep in mind is that digital transmission of text, e.g. email is very efficient. For each user who sends email instead of fax or telephone call, hundreds of additional users can send email in the transmission resource saved. Also, there is currenty unused fiber in the long distance trunks, i.e. "dark" fiber. We can easily add more resource as needed. If users had to pay the same rate for email as the same amount of data required for long distance telephone, email would still be very cheap. Access of gopher or www text is similar to email in effiency. Pictures, voice/audio and video are, of course, much more expensive. From hage@netcom.com Wed Nov 23 18:10:48 1994 Received: from netcom13.netcom.com (hage@netcom13.netcom.com [192.100.81.125]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA06923 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 18:10:46 -0800 Received: by netcom13.netcom.com (8.6.9/Netcom) id PAA14836; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 15:03:10 -0800 Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 15:03:10 -0800 From: hage@netcom.com (Carl Hage) Message-Id: <199411232303.PAA14836@netcom13.netcom.com> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: Minority Issues, and Concerns X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] : From: J. B. Saunders, Executive Director : African-American Resource Machine : It is my opinion that the government should provide universal service to the : Info' Superhighway, enabling everyone to have access. But what does this mean? What do you think the government should provide? To some, universal service means that everyone will have a fiber optic cable or cable TV cable connected to thier home. We can have univeresal hookups into a telecommunications network, but still not have access. Your description of the computer facility at Glide Chucrh is a good example of what is really means to provide universal "service". That doesn't just mean a telecommunications line, but also computer equipment and training, plus information resources at the other end. The government should focus on facilitating help for programs such as at Glide. The needs here are very different than the very high-end focus of HPPC and most of the government programs involving communications infrastructure research. We need to shift the emphasis from high performance to high access. I think a poor form of support is paying for a high speed communications line (alone) or in providing an expensive single user computer. There should be more support to coordinate community organizations with technical support and programs and equipment suited to the low budgets and used computers available. [Sorry if I'm redundant in these messages, but the point needs to be driven home. I would like to hear from others on what they think of the way the existing research, development, testing, and publicity of the NII has been prioritized by the government and major telecom suppliers. ]