Hi Andre, Daphne,

When school kids are taught in their home language, not the school 
language, then I would say that they are being denied  knowledge of the 
mainstream language.  Some would not like me saying this, doubtless, 
but it is the way I do see it, after having listened to and read many 
opinions.

Suppose those pregnant teenagers came to school, were educated 
together, and learned how to work with their children within a school 
setting?  Other places do this, why not every place?

I read in newspapers small vignettes of schools that work for poor 
kids--they do the things for the children that parents who have more 
money do for their own children, automatically.  The corders of schools 
have to be elastic, including in their working day these additional 
tasks.

Small schools that have succeeded:  1)	they are small and their classes 
are small, 2) the teachers are knowledgeable in their subject areas. 3) 
teachers check in with family members frequently, keeping strong ties 
between students , parents, and school, 4 )  teachers assume that 
children can learn, 5)  there is discipline and rules and expectations 
about behavior.	

When you start with small children there is not a disposition that is 
anti-school--you're starting with day care and what used to be called 
"nursery school."

Are there people on this list serv who have managed, created, or worked 
in schools with this model?  And that enroll teenage mothers as part of 
a normal high school experience?

Andrea

On Nov 26, 2007, at 8:12 AM, Muro, Andres wrote:


> Hi Daphne:

>  

> Actually, this was one of the things that Allan Quigley focused on. He 

> did studies and found that many k-12 students have a poor disposition 

> towards traditional learning environments. He called them resistors. 

> these are the students that end up dropping out. When they come to ABE 

> contexts, they still have a poor disposition towards those 

> environments that tend to repeat the same format as the k-12 system.

>  

> Ogbu also studied resistance of "involuntary minorities" towards 

> traditional learning environments. he argued that "Involuntary 

> minorities", or those that have a lower social status in a 

> society (in California Chicanos and blacks) are forced by schools 

> to adopt that cultural patterns of the hegemonic group. If they do 

> they will succeed in school but they will betray their own. So, 

> minorities are caught between acting "whitie" and succeeding in 

> school, but being rejected but their own peers, or continue to belong 

> among their peers and failing in school.  

>  

> Jim Cummins suggested additive educational models, where students 

> continued to learn cultural and linguistic practices of their peers as 

> well as the hegemonic practices. In Oakland, it was proposed that kids 

> learn the African American Language System along with standard 

> English, but many were offended by that. In many kinders and 

> elementary charter schools in California they are teaching Spanish, 

> along with Mexican history, culture, etc. many of those school have 

> received bomb threats, insults, etc. In fact, there is a radio show 

> that has targeted those schools and spews all kinds of racist talk.

>  

> There is a charter school that I believe that is called "Semillas del 

> Corazon". It is in a poor mostly Latin neighborhood. I think that you 

> can find it on youtube. they have recordings of the threats that they 

> get, and they've had to close. 

>  

> Andres 

>

> From: povertyracewomen-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Daphne Greenberg

> Sent: Sun 11/25/2007 6:52 PM

> To: povertyracewomen at nifl.gov

> Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1439] drop-outs

>

>

> Andrea raises an important point-" we should interview the drop-outs 

> to see why they have dropped out." Does anyone know of studies which 

> were conducted with high school drop outs, asking them why they 

> dropped out of school? Perhaps some of you have asked your learners 

> this question and want to contribute what you have learned. What I 

> have heard are issues related to gangs, pregnancy, illness, moving 

> around a lot. I have never heard anyone specifically state anything 

> about the educational system, even though most of the learners that I 

> have interacted with read below a fifth grade level, and therefore did 

> not benefit from the school system way before they dropped out. It 

> would be interesting if anyone knows of any studies that focus on this 

> type of issue.

> Daphne

>

> >>> Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net> 11/25/07 8:43 PM >>>

> Hi Liz,

>

> It is late (for me) Sunday, so I will just say that we should interview

> the drop-outs to see why they have dropped out. Also--kids know school

> is important,, it is a cultural norm;  often pleasing the parents is in

> there too.  No one wants to fail.

>

> Andrea

>

> On Nov 25, 2007, at 6:29 PM, Liz Hawkins wrote:

>

> > I think one of the problems with public education is that we often

> > assume kids are fundamentally different from adults.  We assume that

> > kids should and will go to school and try to succeed because they are

> > required to do so and need to do so in order to get along in life;

> > whereas adults presumably seek out education by choice.  However,

> > making education compulsory for kids does not change the fact that

> > students (of any age) will choose what they want to learn and how 

> hard

> > they will work to learn it based on a variety of factors. 

> >

> > Andre brought up the cultural/social issues that exist, and I

> > certainly agree.  Students who see school as a place which offends 

> and

> > threatens their cultural ideals will struggle there.  When I taught 

> in

> > the public school system in S. Atlanta, I frequently had high school

> > students (or even younger) who really needed to work (not in the

> > future, but right then) in order to help support their families. 

> > Although  I tried to be sensitive to these students' needs, I found

> > myself insisting that education should be a priority, and in doing so

> > without offering them any real solutions to their present dilemmas,

> > alienating them.  At school, they are told they must succeed in 

> school

> > in order to have a hope for a better, more economically comfortable

> > life, but that does not make sense to a child who knows she might not

> > get to eat this weekend, that her little brother may not have shoes 

> to

> > wear this winter, or that her own baby will have no one to look after

> > it if she goes to school every day and does all her homework instead

> > of finding ways to make money.  Certainly these situations are not

> > fair, but they are real, and if we want to improve education, we need

> > to address these problems in the community as well.

> >

> > Dana mentioned the focus on testing as a fundamental problem in 

> school

> > systems, and this too is absolutely true, but the testing issue is

> > representative of the same underlying issue--students fail to see a

> > lack of relevance between what they are being told to learn and what

> > they need to survive.  They do not understand (and neither do many

> > teachers) why being able to pass a standardized test is important, 

> and

> > yet being able to pass the test is the primary incentive they are

> > presented with as motivation to learn the material.  Having taught 

> 9th

> > and 10th graders, I know that there are many teachers who strive to

> > make these connections and show their students how getting an

> > education is truly, really, immediately and in the long-term,

> > beneficial.  I was one of them, but honestly, more often than not I

> > had a hard time seeing the relevance myself.

> >

> > So the issue remains that public school at present is not relevant to

> > everyone.  I think that technical education programs, 

> accelerated/dual

> > enrollment programs, and magnet schools are all steps in the right

> > direction toward making sure there are different types  of education

> > available to meet different people's needs, but we need to do more. 

> > If we can figure out what people really need and try to give it to

> > them, perhaps parents and communities will again rally behind the

> > educational system, providing local support and encouraging political

> > changes at the state and national levels as well.  Rather than

> > continuing to treat the symptoms of a poor educational system by

> > prescribing medications (such as No Child Left Behind), many of which

> > themselves have heinous side effects, we need to pull out the scalpel

> > and operate on the core issues.

> >

> > -Liz

> >

> >

> > Dana Donohue <dana.donohue at gmail.com> wrote:Hi Andre and Andrea.

> >> Although I have never been a school teacher, I currently work on a

> >> reading research project in several elementary schools in Atlanta. I

> >> was curious about your statement, Andrea, that we still need to come

> >> to an agreement about what the problems in the schools are. Excuse 

> my

> >> naivety, but is there still no consensus? Here are some of the major

> >> problems that I have seen and have discussed with teachers. First

> >> (and probably foremost), the focus on testing creates a lot of

> >> apprehension and fear that if they (the classes and/or schools)

> >> perform poorly, more of their funding will be taken away. Second,

> >> there appears to be a lot of variability in the skills and expertise

> >> between both schools and teachers. I'm guessing that this, too, may

> >> stem from the funding issue. Lastly, I think that especially in the

> >> poorer areas, there lacks that important bond between the schools 

> and

> >> the parents. These bonds may encourage children to stay engaged in

> >> the learning process. I suppose that a good place to start to fix

> >> these problems would be a push by educators to overhaul or do away

> >> with No Child Left Behind. Of course, I'm not a teacher and so I am

> >> curious about what teachers think about how to fix the myriad of

> >> issues that hinder children's education.

> >> 

> >> Dana

> >>

> >> 

> >> On 11/24/07, Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net> wrote: Andre--

> >>>

> >>> I understand what you are saying.  I wrote what I did because I 

> think

> >>> there is enough experience and brain power on this list serv and

> >>> others

> >>> to light up a good-sized city.  Where I live, school boards get

> >>> elected. They are supposed to be the link between the school and 

> us,

> >>> and they are answerable to us--us meaning the people who elected

> >>> them.

> >>> Here, the "us" are the extremely knowledgeable members of this list

> >>> serv.  We know the consequences of school failure.  This is useful

> >>> knowledge, not only for the dropouts, but what may be behind the 

> drop

> >>> outs.  I am convinced that groups of people with this knowledge, in

> >>> our

> >>>  communities, can make a difference.   I used to be a school 

> teacher,

> >>> too.  We first must come to some agreements as to what the problems

> >>> are, then prioritize and find out where to start.

> >>>

> >>> Andrea

> >>>

> >>> On Nov 24, 2007, at 12:25 PM, Andre Whitmore wrote:

> >>>

> >>> > Andrea

> >>> > I am a former school teacher and I believe that the school system

> >>> > in and of itself is the reason why so many students fail. The

> >>> > schooling process is designed to ensure that students are

> >>> socialized

> >>> > to acquire an American cultural identity, which for many of the

> >>> > students is an unrealistic goal for them. It has become 

> increasing

> >>> > difficult for students to envisionhow they can actively 

> participate

> >>> > and succeed in this culture. Jobs, occupations, and success are 

> no

> >>> > longer consistent with education. The educational requirements 

> have

> >>> > become too demanding and do not offer any guarantee for a job. 

> Many

> >>> > minority students have observed how their family members and

> >>> people in

> >>> > the community have sought education that leads to poverty still.

> >>> The

> >>> > schooling process should offer students the opportunity ability 

> to

> >>> > become socialized in their culture so that they can associate 

> real

> >>> > significance to their education. furthermore, American culture

> >>> > singifies free market and free enterprise opportunities, but the

> >>>  > schooling process does not place emphasis on this aspect. Most

> >>> public

> >>> > schools teach students to become apoorly trained labor force that

> >>> > remains dependent on the corporate structure. Simply put, 

> students

> >>> > will continue to resist public education until education in this

> >>> > country receives a make-over.

> >>> > Andre

> >>> > ----- Original Message ----

> >>> > From: Andrea Wilder < andreawilder at comcast.net>

> >>> > To: Women and Literacy Discussion List The Poverty Race

> >>> > <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>

> >>> > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 10:29:06 PM

> >>> > Subject: [PovertyRaceWomen 1429] Changing schools

> >>> >

> >>> > Hi everyone,

> >>> >

> >>> > I think it is really important to find out which types of 

> students

> >>> in

> >>> > our local schools aren't doing well and to change local school

> >>> behavior

> >>> > so all students can succeed.

> >>> >

> >>> > Andrea

> >>> >

> >>> > ----------------------------------------------------

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> >>> >

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