From - Tue May 19 16:40:20 1998 Message-Id: <00001AA8@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:24 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: FW: ARIN and "non-profit things" -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_EEBAB73C.DABBD7B6" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_EEBAB73C.DABBD7B6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_EEBAB73C.DABBD7B6 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:57:48 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: FW: ARIN and "non-profit things" -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_EEBAB73C.DBBAD6B7" --=_EEBAB73C.DBBAD6B7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_EEBAB73C.DBBAD6B7 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA00257; Sat, 16 May 1998 07:44:07 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD809D.A3BDFD00@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 07:38:38 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD809D.A3BDFD00@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" Cc: "'Ira Magaziner'" Subject: FW: ARIN and "non-profit things" Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:38:37 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ---------- From: Jim Fleming[SMTP:JimFleming@unety.net] Sent: Saturday, May 16, 1998 7:33 AM To: 'arin-council@arin.net'; 'ARIN list' Cc: 'Dave Farber'; 'John C Klensin'; 'Jon Postel'; 'Randy Bush'; = 'Steve Wolff' Subject: ARIN and "non-profit things" Several people have asked what sorts of things ARIN could be doing or could have done to make it more "non-profit in nature". In my opinion there are numerous things but one that stands out is involvement in the formation of the new IANA Inc. As people should know, I suggested that the ARIN non-profit vehicle could be used to give the new IANA Inc. a ride to get it started. This would have been a helping hand to the industry. It would have been the type of community outreach that some may have expected from a truely non-profit. With all of the money that ARIN is raking in, it would have been trivial to spend some of that money on helping to set up the new IANA Inc. Since some of the functions that ARIN currently handles clearly have to move to the IANA Inc. and since Jon Postel is already on the ARIN Board it would have saved money and time to have ARIN help to get the IANA Inc. launched. This is apparently something that ARIN is not interested in helping with. This could have been something that ARIN could have "contributed" even if it was only for 6 months or a year. This could have been something that ARIN could have done to help repay the U.S. Government and other parties for the IPv4 assets that ARIN now controls. This could have been a "non-profit thing" that ARIN could have done to help "advance" the interests of the community. See also... http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/bus_info/eo/index.html http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/bus_info/eo/bus-orgs.html @@@@ http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/bus_info/eo/bl-req.html "A business league, in general, is an association of persons having some common business interest, the purpose of which is to promote such common interest and not to engage in a regular business of a kind ordinarily carried on for profit. Trade associations and professional associations are considered to be business leagues. The business league must be devoted to the improvement of business conditions of one or more lines of business as distinguished from the performance of particular services for individual persons. It must be shown that the conditions of a particular trade or the interests of the community will be advanced." @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_EEBAB73C.DBBAD6B7-- --=_EEBAB73C.DABBD7B6-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:21 1998 Message-Id: <00001AA6@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:25 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: ASNs and the new IANA Inc. -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_EFBBB63D.D4B5D9B8" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_EFBBB63D.D4B5D9B8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_EFBBB63D.D4B5D9B8 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:57:46 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: ASNs and the new IANA Inc. -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_EFBBB63D.D5B4D8B9" --=_EFBBB63D.D5B4D8B9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_EFBBB63D.D5B4D8B9 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA00225; Sat, 16 May 1998 07:17:46 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8099.F53E62E0@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 07:12:16 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8099.F53E62E0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'ARIN list'" Cc: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Dave Farber'" , "'Ira Magaziner'" , "'John C Klensin'" , "'Jon Postel'" , "'Randy Bush'" Cc: "'Steve Wolff'" Subject: ASNs and the new IANA Inc. Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:12:15 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Will ASN "sales" and management be moved to the new IANA Inc. when it is formed ? http://www.arin.net/asnform.html Since ASNs have nothing to do with IPv4 addresses and since they span ARIN, APNIC, and RIPE wouldn't they be best managed by the new IANA Inc. ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_EFBBB63D.D5B4D8B9-- --=_EFBBB63D.D4B5D9B8-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:22 1998 Message-Id: <00001A99@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:27 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: RE: Who owns 12.0.0.0 ? AT&T or ARIN ? -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_ECB8B53E.D6B7DBBA" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_ECB8B53E.D6B7DBBA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_ECB8B53E.D6B7DBBA Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:57:49 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: RE: Who owns 12.0.0.0 ? AT&T or ARIN ? -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_ECB8B53E.D7B6DABB" --=_ECB8B53E.D7B6DABB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_ECB8B53E.D7B6DABB Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA00426; Sat, 16 May 1998 09:40:36 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD80AD.E93F9E00@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 09:35:06 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD80AD.E93F9E00@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Kamau Wanguhu'" Cc: "arin-council@arin.net" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'dpz@APPLE.COM'" , "'Ira Magaziner'" , "jis@MIT.EDU" , "'ARIN list'" Cc: "'David Wimsey'" Subject: RE: Who owns 12.0.0.0 ? AT&T or ARIN ? Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 09:35:05 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Saturday, May 16, 1998 9:28 AM, Kamau Wanguhu[SMTP:kamau@crl.dec.com] = wrote: @Jim; @Add to this the class B that came with NeXT 129.18/16... @ @It still seems that the best way to get address space is still @acquisitions. =20 @ @I hope negotiators take this into account when they are pegging a price @on their company. @ I have a feeling that as soon as the new IANA Inc. is formed companies will be working hard to make sure that their IN-ADDR.ARPA "domain names" are moved to the IANA Inc. At the moment those are handled by ARIN. This puts companies into the hands of the private company ARIN and they never agreed to have this happen. Since the U.S. Government will apparently be overseeing the IANA Inc. this will provide companies better protection of their assets. The new IANA Inc. should be able to manage the IN-ADDR.ARPA zone and keep it on the legacy Root Name Servers operated by the U.S. Government. ARIN, APNIC and RIPE will only need a few entries to handle the /8s they have managed to get from the IANA. Other for-profit companies will be able to take their places as peers with ARIN, APNIC and RIPE to make for a competitive IPv4 address space market. Once this transition occurs then the route table entries will have to be addressed. Because of the complex ways that routes can be set up it will be impossible to tie routing to address management. This is going to become more obvious with IPv6 and IPv8. It is going to be an interesting world. - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_ECB8B53E.D7B6DABB-- --=_ECB8B53E.D6B7DBBA-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:22 1998 Message-Id: <00001A9D@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:30 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: Is APNIC Only One of Three ? -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_ECB8B53E.D0B1DDBC" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_ECB8B53E.D0B1DDBC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_ECB8B53E.D0B1DDBC Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:57:51 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: Is APNIC Only One of Three ? -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_ECB8B53E.D1B0DCBD" --=_ECB8B53E.D1B0DCBD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_ECB8B53E.D1B0DCBD Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA00500; Sat, 16 May 1998 10:15:34 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD80B2.CBE10E20@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 10:10:04 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD80B2.CBE10E20@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'ARIN list'" Cc: "'Adam Todd'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira Magaziner'" Subject: Is APNIC Only One of Three ? Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:10:03 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline In the ad for a new "director general" the APNIC claims to be one of only *three* organizations in the world that coordinates resource allocation. Is that true ? What about the IANA (or IANA Inc.)? What about all of the LIRs of RIPE ? What about the companies that now are dividing up their /8s ? What about @Home ? @@@@@ http://www.apnic.net/jobs/dg.html "director general=20 * IT/Communications Industry=20 * Package >US$90,000 Negotiable=20 * Location: Brisbane, Australia The Asia Pacific Network Information Center (APNIC) co-ordinates resource allocation for internet service providers across the Asia Pacific = region. It is one of only 3 organisations who perform these functions world-wide." @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ By the way...is $90,000 (U.S.) per year for Australia a good salary ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_ECB8B53E.D1B0DCBD-- --=_ECB8B53E.D0B1DDBC-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:23 1998 Message-Id: <00001AA5@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:30 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: How does the IANA collect money ? -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_ECB8B53E.D2B3DFBE" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_ECB8B53E.D2B3DFBE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_ECB8B53E.D2B3DFBE Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:57:52 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: How does the IANA collect money ? -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_ECB8B53E.D3B2DEBF" --=_ECB8B53E.D3B2DEBF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_ECB8B53E.D3B2DEBF Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA00523; Sat, 16 May 1998 10:24:50 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD80B4.17943760@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 10:19:21 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD80B4.17943760@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Jon Postel'" Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" , "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Christopher Ambler'" , "'Don Mitchell'" Cc: "'Don Heath'" , "'Ira Magaziner'" , "'ARIN list'" , "'Simon Higgs'" Subject: How does the IANA collect money ? Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:19:20 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Jon, If the current IANA is not a "company" how can it receive $50,000 ? Where does the money get deposited ? Does this go to the NSF ? Does this go to ARIN ? Does this go to USC/ISI ? Does it go to the ISOC ? @@@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/financial_status.htm#c3_2 "Service fees which consisted of the APNIC payment of US $50,000 to the IANA in April, 1997;" @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_ECB8B53E.D3B2DEBF-- --=_ECB8B53E.D2B3DFBE-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:23 1998 Message-Id: <00001A9F@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:32 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Is APNIC Only One of Three ? -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_EDB9B43F.CCADC1A0" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_EDB9B43F.CCADC1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_EDB9B43F.CCADC1A0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:57:53 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Is APNIC Only One of Three ? -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_EDB9B43F.CDACC0A1" --=_EDB9B43F.CDACC0A1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_EDB9B43F.CDACC0A1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA00564; Sat, 16 May 1998 10:52:47 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD80B7.FF2C3660@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 10:47:18 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD80B7.FF2C3660@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'ARIN list'" , "'Pindar Wong'" Cc: "'Adam Todd'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira Magaziner'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Is APNIC Only One of Three ? Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:47:17 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Saturday, May 16, 1998 6:41 PM, Pindar Wong[SMTP:pindar@HK.Super.NET] = wrote: @ @I believe that the three organisations are refering to APNIC, ARIN and = RIPE. @ Yes, I assumed that was the three...that was not the question... What about the IANA (or IANA Inc.)? What about all of the LIRs of RIPE ? What about the companies that now are dividing up their /8s ? What about @Home ? What about AT&T and their 12.0.0.0 ? http://www.merit.edu/mail.archives/html/nanog/msg02336.html - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_EDB9B43F.CDACC0A1-- --=_EDB9B43F.CCADC1A0-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:23 1998 Message-Id: <00001AA1@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:36 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: Domain Names and IP Addresses -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_EDB9B43F.CEAFC3A2" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_EDB9B43F.CEAFC3A2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_EDB9B43F.CEAFC3A2 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:57:54 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: Domain Names and IP Addresses -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_EDB9B43F.CFAEC2A3" --=_EDB9B43F.CFAEC2A3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_EDB9B43F.CFAEC2A3 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA00615; Sat, 16 May 1998 11:17:12 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD80BB.6808F8A0@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 11:11:42 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD80BB.6808F8A0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'ARIN list'" Cc: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira Magaziner'" Subject: Domain Names and IP Addresses Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:11:41 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Many Internet leaders have tried to baffle government officials by misleading them into thinking that domain names and IP address allocations have nothing to do with each other. Over and over this "party line" has been played out on mailing lists whenever people want to try to end conversations they do not like. I have made the point several times that I think that Internet Governance should begin from the base of TLDs via a structured root. This distributes the control to a diverse world-wide community. People who do not want to give up control do not like this plan. Instead, they return to the "party line" that IP addresses and domain names are separate. This is hardly the case. As we have seen with RIPE and now APNIC, the organizations which claim to be IP addresses only, end up in the middle of domain name issues[1]. They are able to make policies and make them stick because they hold IP address resource allocation as a lever. In summary, while the leaders are telling people that IP address resources and domain names are disjoint they are working to set policies that impact both. I claim that they have tried to separate the population in a divide and conquer strategy but this has not worked. The U.S. Government has easily been able to see that Internet Resource management includes many things and they are intricately tied together. Jim Fleming =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D [1] @ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/vital_stats.htm#c1 "Whether the Executive Council should make the final decision on whether an organization requesting the xxNIC.NET domain is appropriate for delegation to occur after which the Executive Council agreed that it was their responsibility to make the decision;" ... "Whether APNIC should contribute and/or support a survey of national top level domains in the AP region, after which the decision was in the = affirmative;" @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_EDB9B43F.CFAEC2A3-- --=_EDB9B43F.CEAFC3A2-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:24 1998 Message-Id: <00001AAC@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:36 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: ARIN and APNIC Staff Sizes -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F2A6AB20.C8A9C5A4" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_F2A6AB20.C8A9C5A4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_F2A6AB20.C8A9C5A4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:57:56 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: ARIN and APNIC Staff Sizes -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F2A6AB20.C9A8C4A5" --=_F2A6AB20.C9A8C4A5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_F2A6AB20.C9A8C4A5 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA00632; Sat, 16 May 1998 11:28:44 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD80BD.0468E740@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 11:23:14 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD80BD.0468E740@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Kim Hubbard'" Cc: "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira Magaziner'" , "'ARIN list'" Subject: ARIN and APNIC Staff Sizes Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:23:13 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Kym, How was the current ARIN staff size determined ? ...it appears to be much larger than APNIC... @@@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/vital_stats.htm#c1 "In comparison with APNIC's peers, APNIC's staff to member ratio at the end of 1997 is 36.36 to 1. This may be compared to RIPE-NCC with approximately 900 members and 36 staff (a ratio of 25 to 1) and ARIN with approximately 130 members and 14 staff (a ratio of 9.28 to 1). When = comparing hostmaster ratios, APNIC has a hostmaster to member ratio of 200 to 1, whereas RIPE-NCC's ratio is 69.23 to 1 and ARIN's ratio is 21.66 to 1." @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_F2A6AB20.C9A8C4A5-- --=_F2A6AB20.C8A9C5A4-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:24 1998 Message-Id: <00001A9B@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:37 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: Why is the APNIC in the Domain Name Business ? -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F2A6AB20.CAABC7A6" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_F2A6AB20.CAABC7A6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_F2A6AB20.CAABC7A6 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:57:57 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: Why is the APNIC in the Domain Name Business ? -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F2A6AB20.CBAAC6A7" --=_F2A6AB20.CBAAC6A7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_F2A6AB20.CBAAC6A7 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA00664; Sat, 16 May 1998 11:43:44 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD80BF.1CC93860@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 11:38:14 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD80BF.1CC93860@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" , "'Adam Todd'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Barry Raveendran Greene'" , "'cgomes@internic.net'" , "'Ira Magaziner'" Cc: "'laina@singnet.com.sg'" , "'ARIN list'" , "'Pindar Wong'" , "'Jon Postel'" , "'Richard J. Sexton'" Subject: Why is the APNIC in the Domain Name Business ? Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:38:11 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Why is the APNIC in the business of reserving .NET domain names and deciding who should get them and who should not ? Isn't this domain name speculation ? Also...what country code does "AP" stand for ? By the convention being established below xxNIC.NET implies that AP is the country code. Has the APNIC.NET given itself a special exception ? @@@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/resource_status.htm#c4_1 "In addition, as an attempt to promote a common naming system for national Network Information Centers in the AP region, APNIC reserved xxNIC.NET domain names where "xx" is the 2-letter ISO-3166 country code for = countries in Asia and the Pacific Rim. As a result, APNIC has the authority to = delegates these xxNIC.NET domains to appropriate organizations in the Asia and = Pacific Rim regions and this delegation authority rests with the APNIC Executive = Council. To date, the following xxNIC.NET domains have been delegated: THNIC.NET AUNIC.NET KRNIC.NET TWNIC.NET JPNIC.NET MYNIC.NET Requests have been received in the past for TONIC.NET (Tonga), CNNIC.NET (China), SGNIC.NET (Singapore), PHNIC.NET (Philippines), INNIC.NET (India), IDNIC.NET (Indonesia), LKNIC.NET (Sri Lanka), VNNIC.NET (Viet Nam) and PKNIC.NET (Pakistan), however no additional delegations have yet occurred as the organizations in question did not = meet the criteria (i.e., obtain a "rough consensus" of the Internet community = in the country in question and/or represent the government of the country in = question directly) for the delegation to occur prior to the end of 1997." @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Also...why would the APNIC be deciding on the above countries if the IANA (old or new) has already delegated a TLD to someone in the country ? Does this mean that the APNIC does not agree with the IANA selections and blocks these countries from getting domain names ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_F2A6AB20.CBAAC6A7-- --=_F2A6AB20.CAABC7A6-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:25 1998 Message-Id: <00001AAA@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:40 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: APNIC IPv4 Address Allocations -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F3A7AA21.C4A5C9A8" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_F3A7AA21.C4A5C9A8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_F3A7AA21.C4A5C9A8 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:57:58 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: APNIC IPv4 Address Allocations -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F3A7AA21.C5A4C8A9" --=_F3A7AA21.C5A4C8A9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_F3A7AA21.C5A4C8A9 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA00761; Sat, 16 May 1998 13:06:02 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD80CA.9C259620@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 13:00:32 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD80CA.9C259620@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Antitrust List'" , "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'" , "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'ARIN list'" Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Daniel Karrenberg'" , "'David Farber'" , "'Hilarie Orman'" , "'Ira Magaziner'" Cc: "'Karl Denninger'" , "'John C Klensin'" , "'Jon Postel'" , "'Steve Wolff'" Subject: APNIC IPv4 Address Allocations Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 13:00:31 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline According to the APNIC Annual Report, the data base of information is not accurate[1]. Despite this, the APNIC received an additional = allocation of over 16 million IPv4 addresses in April of 1997. That appears to be the same time that the APNIC paid the IANA $50,000 in service fees. This also appears to be at a time when the APNIC had not used the addresses it already had. Why does a private company like APNIC, set up in an off-shore haven like the Seychelles, and operating out of Tokyo, with apparently no taxes being paid to Japan[2], be allowed to obtain additional IPv4 address space with apparently no justification and an admission of poor record keeping while U.S. ISPs and other companies around the world are put through the ringer for a few IPv4 addresses ? Jim Fleming =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D= http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/resource_status.htm#c4_1 Percentage Used ------------------------- 0% 61.x.x.x <-------- April 25, 1997 0% 169.208.x.x 0% 169.209.x.x 0% 169.210.x.x 0% 169.211.x.x 0% 169.212.x.x 0% 169.213.x.x 0% 169.214.x.x 0% 169.215.x.x 80% 202.x.x.x 80% 203.x.x.x 12% 210.x.x.x 12% 211.x.x.x @@@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/financial_status.htm#c3_2 "Service fees which consisted of the APNIC payment of US $50,000 to the IANA in April, 1997;" @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ [1] @@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/future_directions.htm#c= 6_1 "Database Cleanup The current registry database system is has significant amounts of incorrect data. This is a significant issue as the registry database is = intended to be the location of authoritative information on which organizations = control which resources. It is likely that unless the registry database system is = revised, conflicts will arise when organizations attempt to obtain Internet = connectivity with historically allocated resources but which no longer have up to date information in the registry database." @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ [2] @@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/other_activities.htm#c5= _2 "APNIC Headquarters Relocation Around first quarter 1997, APNIC began to investigate what would be = required to hire additional staff for the APNIC office in Japan. After lengthy = consultations with various organizations, it was established that the question of = whether APNIC needed to pay tax in Japan was somewhat indeterminate. Specifically, = according to two of three accountancy firms, APNIC should pay taxes, while the third = indicated exactly the opposite. After significant discussion, it was decided to = evaluate the costs of doing business in Japan vis-a-vis doing business in other Asia or = Pacific Rim locations." @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_F3A7AA21.C5A4C8A9-- --=_F3A7AA21.C4A5C9A8-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:26 1998 Message-Id: <00001AC3@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:41 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: The Registry Industry Implosion or Explosion -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F3A7AA21.C6A7CBAA" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_F3A7AA21.C6A7CBAA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_F3A7AA21.C6A7CBAA Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:01 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: The Registry Industry Implosion or Explosion -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F3A7AA21.C7A6CAAB" --=_F3A7AA21.C7A6CAAB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_F3A7AA21.C7A6CAAB Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA01155; Sat, 16 May 1998 20:42:39 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD810A.65D5AC00@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 20:37:09 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD810A.65D5AC00@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'charles mueller'" Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" , "'Antitrust List'" , "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'" , "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" Cc: "'Ira Magaziner'" , "'lir-wg@ripe.net'" , "'ARIN list'" , "'Richard J. Sexton'" Subject: The Registry Industry Implosion or Explosion Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 20:37:08 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Charles, Your comments on monopolies[1] can be applied to the Registry Industry which is currently going through its early development years. Of special interest is the notion of *implosion*. I am not sure I agree that = implosion comes from size and bloat. Instead, it can come from consumer rejection of a system that taxes them to a point where they walk away or "route around the damage" using one of the Internet slogans. It appears that the Registry Industry is about to go through a serious = period of implosion. The U.S. Government has spent a considerable amount of time and energy studying the Registry Industry and they are now poised to start getting it under control. Unfortunately, it appears that their = solutions for controlling the industry will NOT result in expanding competition but = instead will focus on bringing the small group of insiders into a small common structure that will allow the U.S. Government to watch them with a large spot-light. This will likely make the structure implode because these insiders have = not been used to any scrutiny and have moved freely from one place on the planet to another with little or no government supervision. As people try = to escape this government scrutiny, the small circle of insiders will get = smaller and consumers will have a clearer picture of what is happening under the hot lights of that big spot-light. The combination of consumer exodus and participant exodus makes the structure implode. At several points in this process it appeared that the U.S. Government was going to support helping to make the Registry Industry an *explosive" = situation. It should not be surprising that the industry insiders recommended against this because this would have pulled their small power structure apart as the big bang expansion occurred and companies moved away from the small circle of friends that control all of the resources. It should not = be surprising that given a choice between an implosive solution and an explosive plan = the U.S. Government would opt for the implosive approach. There are several reasons for this: 1. The U.S. Government can control the implosive plan. 2. The implosive approach does not frighten people. 3. The explosive approach could be unpredictable. 4. The explosive approach allows people off the hook. 5. The implosive approach requires far less understanding of the industry on the part of the U.S. Government. 6. The implosive approach does NOT preclude the explosive approach to happen at the edges. The last 2 points are probably the most compelling reasons why the U.S. = Government will opt to control the Registry Industry to a point where it implodes as = opposed to becoming involved in explosive strategies. They do not have the time and = energy to really understand the Registry Industry and while they "help" the insiders = implode other people can work to facilitate the expansion of a new Registry = Industry at the edges and the U.S. Government can stand back and watch with little or no = effort or knowledge required. In summary, you and others might be mistaking the apparent support of the U.S. Government for monopolies with the U.S. Government's two pronged = approach to the problem. One, round up the monopolists into smaller and smaller = cliques and watch them carefully while, two, taking a hands-off approach to the = people and companies that offer explosive solutions that may catch on if the clique = is not allowed to expand. Unfortunately, this does not look good because it gives the = appearance that the U.S. Government is devoting all of its resources to the monopolist= s. This is no different than what happens on school yards all around the world. = The teachers spend their time rounding up the small number of children that misbehave = to watch them carefully, while the other children are left unsupervised to grow and = prosper. It is unfortunate that all of these systems favor the approach where = resources are spent on the small minority of monopolists that cause the majority of = society to suffer by denying them more explosive opportunities. The key to moving = forward is for society to understand what the U.S. Government is doing to provide = them freedom to provide something better. If that happens then the majority of = resources will be shifted to the explosive solutions which is the way it should be. Jim Fleming =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D [1] On Saturday, May 16, 1998 3:29 PM, charles mueller[SMTP:cmueller@metrol= ink.net] wrote: @ A century after a gang of Robber Barons successfully monopolized = the @U.S. economy under the slogan, 'Monopoly Is Efficient,' we're seeing a @reenactment under precisely the same banner. We never learn. Over 200 @years ago, Adam Smith was quite clear that, far from being a fount of @efficiency, monopoly is the mother of bloat: "Monopoly, besides, is a = great @enemy of good management, which can never be universally established but = in @consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody = to @have recourse to it for the sake of self-defence." =20 @ @ Bloated costs are an inevitable effect of economic monopoly and, @with those inflated costs, monopolies have no choice but to charge @higher-than-competitive prices, thus imposing on the public what Smith = aptly @characterizes as a 'private tax,' one levied precisely in the interest of @economic INefficiency: "It is for the most worthless of all purposes too @that they [consumers] are taxed in this manner. It is merely to enable = the @[monopoly] to support the negligence, profusion, and malversation of = their @own servants [managers and employees], whose disorderly conduct seldom @allows the dividend of the company to exceed the ordinary rate of profit = in @trades which are altogether free, and very frequently makes it fall even = a @good deal short of that rate." In time, monopolies implode, becoming so @bloated that--even with their inflated prices--they can't earn even a @normal, competitive profit. U.S. Steel, IBM, GM, Xerox, Sears, the list @goes on. @ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_F3A7AA21.C7A6CAAB-- --=_F3A7AA21.C6A7CBAA-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:26 1998 Message-Id: <00001AAF@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:43 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: ARIN Discussion on NANOG -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F0A4A922.C0A1CDAC" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_F0A4A922.C0A1CDAC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_F0A4A922.C0A1CDAC Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:02 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: ARIN Discussion on NANOG -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F0A4A922.C1A0CCAD" --=_F0A4A922.C1A0CCAD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_F0A4A922.C1A0CCAD Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA01313; Sat, 16 May 1998 23:23:37 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8120.E271FE60@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 23:18:07 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8120.E271FE60@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'ARIN list'" Cc: "'Antitrust List'" , "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira Magaziner'" , "'Karl Denninger'" Subject: ARIN Discussion on NANOG Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 23:18:06 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline One of ARIN's target markets is the NANOG community. The NANOG mailing list is normally reserved for network operators to discuss network operations topics. When people discuss topics not desirable to the Internet insiders, they are quickly attacked by the NANOG people who claim their list has to be reserved for more important discussions. Despite the fact that there are several ARIN lists, some which the public can see and some which they can not, occassionally ARIN advocates make their way to the NANOG forums to continue their marketing efforts to sell or lease more IP addresses or services. NANOG people seem to welcome these discussions with open arms. One of the recent discussions starts with "ARIN allocating /20 netblocks?" If you follow the discussion[1] you will see that some people recognize = the fact that ARIN is doing ISPs a dis-service with this new policy. They also note that this helps to increase the revenue for ARIN. Most importantly = the discussion focuses on how unfair this is to small ISPs and how large companies are immune from the extra costs. What is surprising is the lack of knowledge on the part of some of the smaller ISPs in what is = really going on. Karl Denninger, a large and experienced ISP has taken the time to describe why the /20s are a bad idea and more importantly other approaches that = could help smaller ISPs and which would be fair. It is surprising that people do not = recognize that Karl's suggestions could help the small company get started. The ARIN policies do not do this. What always seems to come into play are people = that claim they had to get put through the renumbering ringer so therefore = everyone else is also required to do this. There is little concern for the true costs of = this to the industry and the grief this causes ISPs and customers. There is also = little recognition that it is not necessary, except by people like Karl. In my opinion, ARIN is building a "for-profit-style" business on the past = policies of ISP "initiations and hell-week tactics". This is like the Marine Corps = or the Navy Seals leaders deciding that it was best for them so it is best for all new = recruits. It is a shame that companies do not yet have a clear choice of vendors in = the North American IPv4 Address business. One thing the U.S. Government should = consider doing when the new IANA Inc. is formed is to immediately allow a few other = IPv4 registries to become established to allow different service models to be = allowed. Not every ISP needs to join the "ARIN Corps" and to endure the policies = which experts agree are technically flawed, and anti-competitive and predatory = on the small company that is trying to get started. Jim Fleming =3D=3D=3D=3D [1] ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Mark D. Nagel Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Patrick W. Gilmore Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Jeremiah Kristal=20 Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Mark D. Nagel Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Alex P. Rudnev Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? James Rishaw Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Kim Hubbard=20 Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Jon Lewis=20 Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Jon Lewis=20 Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Karl Denninger=20 Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Jon Lewis=20 Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Karl Denninger=20 Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Jon Lewis=20 Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Karl Denninger=20 Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Michael Shields Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Karl Denninger=20 Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Michael Shields Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Karl Denninger=20 Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Brett Frankenberger=20 Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? Jon Lewis=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_F0A4A922.C1A0CCAD-- --=_F0A4A922.C0A1CDAC-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:26 1998 Message-Id: <00001AB1@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:45 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F0A4A922.C2A3CFAE" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_F0A4A922.C2A3CFAE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_F0A4A922.C2A3CFAE Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:02 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F0A4A922.C3A2CEAF" --=_F0A4A922.C3A2CEAF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_F0A4A922.C3A2CEAF Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA01398; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:06:56 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8126.EF7B0880@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:01:26 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8126.EF7B0880@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Chang, Wai-Leong'" Cc: "'Antitrust List'" , "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'" , "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira Magaziner'" Cc: "'ARIN list'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 00:01:25 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Sunday, May 17, 1998 7:53 AM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] = wrote: @ @I have a suggestion. Join them in organising the 99 seminar/workshop and @you will know the details then. Many ISPs in the region had benefited @tremendously from APRICOT and for about US$500 per person, that is @knowledge for a song. I have attended the ones held in Singapore and HK. @Great stuff.... @ You are missing the point. I am sure it is great stuff. With 99 seminars and workshops it should be able to pay for itself. Taxes from IPv4 address allocations should not be used to subsidize that operation. Does APRICOT plan to pay APNIC back ? Also, if people are "employed" by both APNIC and APRICOT money can be transferred from APNIC to APRICOT to pay them. This can create a false impression on the books of APNIC because people might assume that people are paid a token salary when they are really receiving compensation via money taken out of APNIC and used to subsidize other activities, like APRICOT. Besides the money there is the influence that comes with IPv4 address allocations. Are companies told they will get IP allocations if they support APRICOT ? Is that why APRICOT is a success ? Are IPv4 addresses obtained from the U.S. Government being used to influence other activities ? Furthermore, some of the people that have been paid to participate in APRICOT are also influential in the U.S. in making sure that APNIC gets IPv4 addresses. Do we now have a situation where IPv4 addresses are sent to APNIC where they are "sold/leased" and then the money is transferred to APRICOT to pay for these people to fly to the Asia/Pacific region for meetings and seminars ? If this is the case, then IPv4 addresses are being bartered for other goods, services, trips, etc. This is not something U.S. Government contractors should be doing in my opinion. - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_F0A4A922.C3A2CEAF-- --=_F0A4A922.C2A3CFAE-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:27 1998 Message-Id: <00001AB5@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:46 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F1A5A823.BCDDB1D0" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_F1A5A823.BCDDB1D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_F1A5A823.BCDDB1D0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:04 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F1A5A823.BDDCB0D1" --=_F1A5A823.BDDCB0D1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_F1A5A823.BDDCB0D1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA01442; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:21:26 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8128.F650B040@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:15:56 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8128.F650B040@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Chang, Wai-Leong'" Cc: "'Antitrust List'" , "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'" , "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira Magaziner'" Cc: "'ARIN list'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 00:15:55 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Sunday, May 17, 1998 8:18 AM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] = wrote: @ @You are missing my point. I am saying go ask them direct. You will not = get @any answer here. @ Is this because you have no answers or because discussing these matters may result in you not getting IP allocations ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_F1A5A823.BDDCB0D1-- --=_F1A5A823.BCDDB1D0-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:28 1998 Message-Id: <00001AB7@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:49 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Re: comments on legal documents -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F6A2AF24.BEDFB3D2" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_F6A2AF24.BEDFB3D2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_F6A2AF24.BEDFB3D2 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:06 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Re: comments on legal documents -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F6A2AF24.BFDEB2D3" --=_F6A2AF24.BFDEB2D3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_F6A2AF24.BFDEB2D3 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA01475; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:37:24 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD812B.31230F40@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:31:54 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD812B.31230F40@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'maruyama@nic.ad.jp'" Cc: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" , "arin-council@arin.net" , "at@ah.net" , "bala@apic.net" , "BBURR@ntia.doc.gov" , "davidc@apnic.net" Cc: "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "Ira Magaziner" , "jwkckid1@IX.NETCOM.COM" , "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" Cc: "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" , "naipr@arin.net" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Re: comments on legal documents Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 00:31:53 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Sunday, May 17, 1998 9:28 AM, MARUYAMA Naomasa[SMTP:maruyama@nic.ad.jp] = wrote: @ @I think APNIC were run, and is running very democratically. The @problem here to be discussed is how we can legally implement APNIC @activity for continuing democratic operation so far. The points I @wrote in the previous messages are about the legal framework, not @current operation of APNIC. @ So, your concern is that when APNIC moves to Australia it might not be run in a democratic way ? What do you think about the new APNIC now being run as a "for-profit" operation ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_F6A2AF24.BFDEB2D3-- --=_F6A2AF24.BEDFB3D2-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:28 1998 Message-Id: <00001ABD@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:51 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: APNIC Employees -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F6A2AF24.B8D9B5D4" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_F6A2AF24.B8D9B5D4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_F6A2AF24.B8D9B5D4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:07 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: APNIC Employees -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F6A2AF24.B9D8B4D5" --=_F6A2AF24.B9D8B4D5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_F6A2AF24.B9D8B4D5 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA01485; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:41:31 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD812B.C4656C80@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:36:01 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD812B.C4656C80@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'maruyama@nic.ad.jp'" Cc: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" , "arin-council@arin.net" , "at@ah.net" , "bala@apic.net" , "BBURR@ntia.doc.gov" , "davidc@apnic.net" Cc: "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "Ira Magaziner" , "jwkckid1@IX.NETCOM.COM" , "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" Cc: "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" , "naipr@arin.net" Subject: APNIC Employees Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 00:36:00 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Sunday, May 17, 1998 9:28 AM, MARUYAMA Naomasa[SMTP:maruyama@nic.ad.jp] = wrote: @>From: Jim Fleming @>Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:08:39 -0500 @ @>Your bravery to make these comments restores my faith @>in humanity. I have had similar concerns. People will note @>that my questions went un-answered. @ @"Humanity"? @ Speaking of humanity... How do current APNIC employees report their income taxes ? The company is based in the off-shore have of the Seychelles but it appears to operate from borrowed space in Tokyo. What tax jurisdiction do the APNIC employees fall under ? It seemed clear that one of the reasons that APNIC is moving to Australia is to avoid taxes in Japan. Are those corporate taxes or taxes on personal income ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_F6A2AF24.B9D8B4D5-- --=_F6A2AF24.B8D9B5D4-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:29 1998 Message-Id: <00001ABF@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:52 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: Bounding APNIC's Money Flow -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F6A2AF24.BADBB7D6" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_F6A2AF24.BADBB7D6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_F6A2AF24.BADBB7D6 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:08 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: Bounding APNIC's Money Flow -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F6A2AF24.BBDAB6D7" --=_F6A2AF24.BBDAB6D7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_F6A2AF24.BBDAB6D7 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA01542; Sun, 17 May 1998 01:07:19 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD812F.5EE42D20@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 01:01:49 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD812F.5EE42D20@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'maruyama@nic.ad.jp'" Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" , "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" , "'APPLe '" , "arin-council@arin.net" , "at@ah.net" , "bala@apic.net" Cc: "BBURR@ntia.doc.gov" , "davidc@apnic.net" , "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "Ira Magaziner" Cc: "jwkckid1@IX.NETCOM.COM" , "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" , "'laina@singnet.com.sg'" , "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" , "naipr@arin.net" Subject: Bounding APNIC's Money Flow Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 01:01:48 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I hope that you agree that APNIC is leasing/selling assets provided by the U.S. Government, namely IPv4 addresses. That makes APNIC special in some people's minds, especially U.S. taxpayers. For APNIC to be financially coupled to APRICOT opens the door for money to flow from the IP address business to other businesses. This does not seem to be a good thing. If that is allowed to happen, then assets from the U.S. Government are used to control the commerce in the rest of the region. In my opinion, there should be a money barrier as shown below. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D http://www.apnic.net =3D=3D=3D=3D money barrier =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D http://www.apricot.net/ http://www.apia.org/report.htm http://www.getit.org/founder.htm http://www.itu.int http://www.iana.org - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_F6A2AF24.BBDAB6D7-- --=_F6A2AF24.BADBB7D6-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:29 1998 Message-Id: <00001AC1@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:54 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: APNIC Funding For APRICOT -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F7A3AE25.B4D5B9D8" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_F7A3AE25.B4D5B9D8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_F7A3AE25.B4D5B9D8 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:09 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: APNIC Funding For APRICOT -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F7A3AE25.B5D4B8D9" --=_F7A3AE25.B5D4B8D9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_F7A3AE25.B5D4B8D9 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA01610; Sun, 17 May 1998 01:46:52 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8134.E5A32A00@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 01:41:22 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8134.E5A32A00@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'MARUYAMA Naomasa'" Cc: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" , "arin-council@arin.net" , "at@ah.net" , "bala@apic.net" , "BBURR@ntia.doc.gov" , "davidc@apnic.net" Cc: "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "Ira Magaziner" , "jwkckid1@IX.NETCOM.COM" , "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" Cc: "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" , "naipr@arin.net" Subject: APNIC Funding For APRICOT Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 01:41:21 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline According to the following... http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/other_activities.htm#c5_1 APRICOT 1997 cost $318,030.68. Can you provide similar information for APRICOT 1998 and also information on how much APNIC money was spent on each person below ? @@@@@ http://www.apricot.net/html/instructors.html Eric Allman Butch Anton Robert J. Berger Scott Bradner <------ ARIN David Conrad <------ APNIC Gene Deutsch Barb Dijker Paul Ferguson Stewart Forster Barbara Fraser Laina Raveendran Greene <--- APIA Geoff Huston <--------- APNIC Hugh Irvine Andrew Khoo Anne Lord <---- APNIC (RIPE) Ron Masson Evi Nemeth Sam Ramadan Danny Smith Philip Smith Paul Vixie @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_F7A3AE25.B5D4B8D9-- --=_F7A3AE25.B4D5B9D8-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:30 1998 Message-Id: <00001ABB@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:56 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: Questions for Michael Dillon of the ARIN Advisory Council -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F4A0AD26.B6D7BBDA" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_F4A0AD26.B6D7BBDA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_F4A0AD26.B6D7BBDA Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:10 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: Questions for Michael Dillon of the ARIN Advisory Council -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F4A0AD26.B7D6BADB" --=_F4A0AD26.B7D6BADB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_F4A0AD26.B7D6BADB Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA03204; Sun, 17 May 1998 02:19:23 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8139.7022F4E0@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 02:13:53 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8139.7022F4E0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'michael@memra.com'" Cc: "'Antitrust List'" , "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira Magaziner'" , "'Karl Denninger'" Cc: "'Kim Hubbard'" , "'ARIN list'" Subject: Questions for Michael Dillon of the ARIN Advisory Council Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 02:13:51 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Michael, 1. If you do not think that renumbering is that big a deal then why did you spend so much time at Priori working the ARIN discussions to make sure that Priori had their own address space ? 2. Why aren't these discussions on the ARIN lists ? 3. Why aren't ALL of the ARIN mailing lists available to the public ? 4. Also, why do ARIN personnel need to attend NANOG meetings ? Isn't the clerical job that ARIN performs pretty well understood by NANOG members ? Why does ARIN spend money on that ? 5. Are you a member of ARIN ? According to the ARIN web site members of the Advisory Council have to be members of ARIN. Jim Fleming @@@@ http://www.merit.edu/mail.archives/html/nanog/msg02449.html Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks? To: nanog@merit.edu=20 Subject: Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks?=20 From: Michael Dillon =20 Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 23:14:46 -0700 (PDT)=20 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=3DUS-ASCII=20 In-Reply-To: <19980516213501.39690@mcs.net>=20 Organization: Memra Communications Inc.=20 Sender: owner-nanog@merit.edu=20 On Sat, 16 May 1998, Karl Denninger wrote: > agency). Renumbering THEM would be a job out of the depths of Hades=20 > itself; even broaching the subject would likely cost us the account. I see. So if you tell the customer that they need to renumber, then they tell you to stuff it and switch to a new provider who... tells them that they must renumber out of your soon-to-be-reassigned address space. I just don't see this as a realistic example of a situation in which a renumbering ISP is at a severe business disadvantage. In fact I can't remember ever seeing any such realistic example nor do I ever remember hearing of a case in which an ISP lost a significant amount of business because of renumbering. -- Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting Memra Communications Inc. - E-mail: michael@memra.com http://www.memra.com - *check out the new name & new website* @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_F4A0AD26.B7D6BADB-- --=_F4A0AD26.B6D7BBDA-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:30 1998 Message-Id: <00001AB9@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:57 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: ARIN Elections -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F4A0AD26.B0D1BDDC" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_F4A0AD26.B0D1BDDC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_F4A0AD26.B0D1BDDC Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:12 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: ARIN Elections -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F4A0AD26.B1D0BCDD" --=_F4A0AD26.B1D0BCDD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_F4A0AD26.B1D0BCDD Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA03246; Sun, 17 May 1998 02:47:12 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD813D.5314C460@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 02:41:42 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD813D.5314C460@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'John Curran'" Cc: "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Don Mitchell'" , "'Ira Magaziner'" , "'ARIN list'" Subject: ARIN Elections Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 02:41:41 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline John, Why are ARIN Advisory Council elections held in secret ? Last year when you were calling people and selling them on the ARIN plan you claimed ARIN would be open and would serve the Internet community. Why is ARIN now a closed organization ? Jim Fleming @@@@@@ http://www.arin.net/archives/arin-members.9805 From owner-arin-members Fri May 15 21:39:56 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by arin.net (8.8.5/8.8.0) id = VAA11468=20 for arin-members-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 21:39:56 GMT Received: (from pdenitto@localhost) by arin.net (8.8.5/8.8.0) id = VAA11463=20 for arin-members@arin.net; Fri, 15 May 1998 21:39:55 GMT Received: from localhost (memsvcs@localhost) by arin.net (8.8.5/8.8.0) = with=20 SMTP id VAA11427 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 21:39:19 = GMT Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:39:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Member Services To: arin-members@arin.net Subject: AC Election Begins Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=3DUS-ASCII Sender: owner-arin-members@arin.net Precedence: bulk This is a reminder that the election for the AC position is now underway.Candidate information is available on the members web page. Please submit your vote between 5/15/98 and 5/31/98 via email to member-services@arin.net or by surface or air mail to: ARIN attn: Member Services 4506 Daly Dr. Suite 200, Chantilly, Va 20151. You may use pgp when voting by email. See the members web page for pgp information. If you haven't yet signed up for the Members Web Page, please do it soon! Go to https://members.arin.net/ Member Services Team @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_F4A0AD26.B1D0BCDD-- --=_F4A0AD26.B0D1BDDC-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:31 1998 Message-Id: <00001AB3@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:07:59 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: RE: RE: RE: ARIN's View of Magaziner's DCISOC Appearance -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F5A1AC27.B2D3BFDE" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_F5A1AC27.B2D3BFDE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_F5A1AC27.B2D3BFDE Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:13 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: RE: RE: RE: ARIN's View of Magaziner's DCISOC Appearance -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F5A1AC27.B3D2BEDF" --=_F5A1AC27.B3D2BEDF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_F5A1AC27.B3D2BEDF Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA03683; Sun, 17 May 1998 10:24:58 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD817D.46596240@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 10:19:28 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD817D.46596240@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Mathias Koerber'" , "naipr@arin.net" Cc: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "apple@apnic.net" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira Magaziner'" , "tld-wg@ripe.net" Subject: RE: RE: RE: ARIN's View of Magaziner's DCISOC Appearance Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 10:19:27 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Sunday, May 17, 1998 12:32 PM, Mathias Koerber[SMTP:mathias@staff.singne= t.com.sg] wrote: @> On Sunday, May 17, 1998 11:45 AM, Mathias Koerber[SMTP:mathias@staff.sin= gn @> et.com.sg] wrote: @> @> On Saturday, May 16, 1998 11:08 PM, Mathias Koerber[SMTP:mathias@staf= f. @> sin @> @> gnet.com.sg] wrote: @> @> @This is not ARINs view of his comments, but a synopsis of his @> remarks. @> @> @Your subject line was misleading, but the article itself was @> interesting, @> @> @so thanks for reporting it here... @> @> @ @> @> @> @> @> From: Member Services @> @> @> To: arin-members@arin.net @> @> @> Subject: Remarks by Ira Magaziner to DCISOC @> @>=20 @> @> It was from ARIN's Member Services is that not from ARIN ? @> @ @> @Sure, but it did not contain anything akin to their VIEW of things, @> @only a report of what was said. No ARIN opinion was voiced in that @> piece! @> @ @>=20 @> Who wrote the material ? @ @What does the material contain? A report or an opinion. @Whose words are reported? @ @ Since the material is not a "transcript", similar to what you might see from a court reporter or in a deposition it is the "view" of the person writing it. This may not be the way you view things in Singapore, but this is the common view from the U.S. where a free press has been in place for a long time. If you do assume that the ARIN view that was reported is equivalent to a transcript, then we have to agree to disagree, which is probably what we should have done long ago. I think that most people view the reporting that came from ARIN as their view of Magaziner's presentation. I am certain there are probably aspects which are left out. There are probably aspects that are given more emphasis than Magaziner intended. It is a shame that Magaziner and all of the people involved in these matters do not engage in mail list discussions. Then you would see exactly what they say and you could draw your own conclusions. Let's face it, most of the people trying to control the Internet resource allocation process are afraid of using the Internet. Why...???...I'll let you decide that... =20 - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_F5A1AC27.B3D2BEDF-- --=_F5A1AC27.B2D3BFDE-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:31 1998 Message-Id: <00001AC5@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:08:01 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: NANOG and ARIN -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F5A1AC27.ACCDA1C0" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_F5A1AC27.ACCDA1C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_F5A1AC27.ACCDA1C0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:15 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: NANOG and ARIN -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_F5A1AC27.ADCCA0C1" --=_F5A1AC27.ADCCA0C1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_F5A1AC27.ADCCA0C1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA03734; Sun, 17 May 1998 10:57:42 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8181.D8C511C0@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 10:52:12 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8181.D8C511C0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'nanog@merit.edu'" Cc: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira Magaziner'" Subject: NANOG and ARIN Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 10:52:11 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline How come all of these discussions about ARIN are not on the ARIN mailing list(s) ? Could it be because some of the ARIN mailing lists are not available to the public ? Why is that...? Or...Is it because these are really IANA discussions and there is not a public IANA discussion list ? Will that be one of the first things that the new IANA Inc. does...??...(i.e. create an open discussion list)... =3D=3D=3D By the way...since there appears to be interest from NANOG members in these topics....here is my 2 cents... 1. People have been suggesting for years that /19 allocations should be easy to get and totally free of subjective decision making. I and others have suggested that TWO signed affidavits from upstream providers that will be providing the ISP with at least DS1 connections should be all that is required to obtain the allocation. If the ISP goes out of business, the registry gets to recover a larger block that can be easily recycled. Having many different sizes costs more in administrative costs and requires companies like ARIN to spend more money and therefore charge more. 2. It should be clear to everyone that the IPv4 address space is a mess and the IPv4 core transport network will eventually be replaced. There are a variety of strategies for how to do this. Which protocol is used is not the major issue. The Address Management Plan is more critical. The IPv4 plan is the result of years of strife, there is no IPv6 plan, and the IPv8 plan is oriented toward the ideas that some NANOG members have expressed here about NAT and RFC 1918 10.x.x.x networks behind proxy/firewalls. It is encouraging to see that NANOG members are moving in that direction. It is a shame they are being forced there because the IPv4 policies are so onerous and biased toward large telcos, ISPs and the regional registries like ARIN, RIPE and APNIC who are taxing everyone with millions of dollars in fees for a very minimal service. - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_F5A1AC27.ADCCA0C1-- --=_F5A1AC27.ACCDA1C0-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:32 1998 Message-Id: <00001ACB@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:08:03 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_FAAEA328.AECFA3C2" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_FAAEA328.AECFA3C2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_FAAEA328.AECFA3C2 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:16 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_FAAEA328.AFCEA2C3" --=_FAAEA328.AFCEA2C3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_FAAEA328.AFCEA2C3 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA03762; Sun, 17 May 1998 11:08:40 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8183.61010E80@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 11:03:10 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8183.61010E80@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Chang, Wai-Leong'" Cc: "'Antitrust List'" , "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'" , "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira Magaziner'" Cc: "'ARIN list'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 11:03:09 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Sunday, May 17, 1998 6:59 PM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] = wrote: @ @Of course i do not have an answer. It is your imaginary issue with APNIC. @For your info, APNIC has been very efficient with IP address allocation. = I @have no problem getting them.=20 @ Again, you missed the point. If you speak out, you could have a problem getting IP addresses in the future. @You had been crying out in this list for quite some time, i do not see @anyone coming forward to enlighten you. Either there is no issue or no = one @see any point in discusing. Maybe i should take a cue from the majority @silence. @ Another explanation is that people are concerned that if they speak out they will not be able to obtain IP address resources that they need. This is because IPv4 address allocations are tightly controlled by a small group of insiders. That is going to change soon, real soon. Then we will see how willing people are to speak out...about the past... - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_FAAEA328.AFCEA2C3-- --=_FAAEA328.AECFA3C2-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:32 1998 Message-Id: <00001AC9@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:08:05 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: APNIC Members Do Not Participate...Why ? -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_FAAEA328.A8C9A5C4" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_FAAEA328.A8C9A5C4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_FAAEA328.A8C9A5C4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:16 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: APNIC Members Do Not Participate...Why ? -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_FAAEA328.A9C8A4C5" --=_FAAEA328.A9C8A4C5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_FAAEA328.A9C8A4C5 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA03795; Sun, 17 May 1998 11:28:56 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8186.35C2C6C0@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 11:23:26 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8186.35C2C6C0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Chang, Wai-Leong'" Cc: "'Antitrust List'" , "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'" , "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira Magaziner'" Cc: "'ARIN list'" Subject: APNIC Members Do Not Participate...Why ? Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 11:23:25 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Sunday, May 17, 1998 6:59 PM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] = wrote: @ @You had been crying out in this list for quite some time, i do not see @anyone coming forward to enlighten you. Either there is no issue or no = one @see any point in discusing. Maybe i should take a cue from the majority @silence. @ Another explanation is provided on the APNIC web site... @@@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/future_directions.htm#c6_1= "Unfortunately, in the past, the membership has not been particularly = active in guiding APNIC, despite establishing a mailing list for discussion = (apnic-talk@apnic.net) and requesting input on numerous occasions." @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Why is this ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_FAAEA328.A9C8A4C5-- --=_FAAEA328.A8C9A5C4-- From - Tue May 19 16:40:33 1998 Message-Id: <00001AC7@ntiahq3.ntia.doc.gov> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:08:06 -0400 From: "Karen Rose" To: Herschel Gelman Subject: NANOG and the USG Ex-Parte Rules -Forwarded -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_FBAFA229.AACBA7C6" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_FBAFA229.AACBA7C6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -K --=_FBAFA229.AACBA7C6 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:58:17 -0400 From: "Becky Burr" To: Karen Rose Subject: NANOG and the USG Ex-Parte Rules -Forwarded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_FBAFA229.ABCAA6C7" --=_FBAFA229.ABCAA6C7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --=_FBAFA229.ABCAA6C7 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA04082; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:09:43 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD819C.AB8763A0@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:04:12 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD819C.AB8763A0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'nanog@merit.edu'" Cc: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira Magaziner'" Subject: NANOG and the USG Ex-Parte Rules Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 14:04:11 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline NANOG is supported by Merit and Merit is supported by the NSF and the NSF is supported by the U.S. Government and the U.S. Government is supported by U.S. = taxpayers... This makes NANOG conversations about Internet Governance topics subject to the Ex-Parte rules of the U.S. Government. I will try to include the right CCs so that the NTIA's web site can be up to date. http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM --=_FBAFA229.ABCAA6C7-- --=_FBAFA229.AACBA7C6--