Thanks John and Ros.

Of course I understand the difficulty about norming tests for ESOL learners
given all the various differences.  However I still think that tests for
English speakers may contain cultural biases or items that students from
other cultures cannot "get".  I agree with Suzi that students come with a
variety of ideas about reading and learning that may be culturally-based.
For example, I have students who expect the teachers to have all the
answers.  Others focus on mechanics: when asked to read aloud, they can give
a good rendition with little comprehension, etc.
I think if I know ( by experience and by observation) that my Chinese
beginning readers, in general, do not have phonemic awareness, that's where
I should start.  I'm not convinced giving them the test will help me much
more and I'm afraid they will understand they failed the test.
As for my Russian students, they do not actually spell as we do.  So I need
to teach spelling directly.  I also have to know which letters of the
Cyrillic alphabet have a different sound for the same grapheme, both in
upper case and lower case.  I do not need to speak the language.  I need to
find out about areas of differences or difficulties.
And do on for the other components.
Your profiles may guide me but I'm still bothered: I would like to have some
kind of diagnostic test at hand.
Nicole B. Graves
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "john strucker" <john_strucker at harvard.edu>
To: <specialtopics at nifl.gov>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 11:34 AM
Subject: [SpecialTopics 71] Re: ESOL diagnostic testing



> Hi Suzi,

> All students in ESOL classes, all non-native speakers of English in ABE

> classes, and all native speakers in ABE and ASE classes were assessed with

> the same battery of tests of English reading components. All of the

English

> reading tests were designed to be used with adults and/or children, but

not

> none were specifically normed on ESOL adults.  But that was OK with Ros

and

> me, because we primarily wanted to know about their various reading

> profiles in English reading.  (As aside, my intuition tells me that it

> would be very difficult to norm an English reading test on all varieties

of

> ESOL adults in such a way that would be useful to practitioners or even

> researchers.  That is, given the diversity of ESOL students' native

> languages and native language literacy skills - not to mention cultural

> attitudes surrounding literacy, life experiences, etc. - it might make

more

> sense to develop norms within specific language groups, so you'd be only

be

> comparing Spanish speakers to Spanish speakers, Haitian Creole to Haitian

> Creole, etc. I'd be interested in other peoples' thoughts on this.)

> Back to the ARCS, all native speakers of Spanish, whether they were in ABE

> or ESOL classes, were also tested with the Woodcock-Munoz battery, which

> has been extensively normed on Spanish speakers from young children

through

> adults.

> As for your question about "cultural references/schema", I'm not sure

> exactly what you mean by that.  Maybe you could say more.  But remember,

> all we were doing with ARCS was testing people in reading - how they were

> reading English (and or Spanish as discussed above) at the moment we

showed

> up at their program.  This was not a longitudinal study with pre and post

> measures where a number of other factors - including cultural factors -

> would indeed be expected to play a role in students' outcomes.  In our

> extensive background questionnaire we did ask people about their childhood

> educational experience, literacy in native language as well as English,

> reading habits, parents' levels of education, reasons for attending adult

> education, health, family status, etc.  We did this primarily to be able

to

> talk about the wide diversity in the US ESOL population. And, wow, did we

> find diversity!

>

> --On Friday, May 26, 2006 2:25 PM -0400 "Monti, Suzi" <SMonti at ccbcmd.edu>

> wrote:

>

> >

> > Hi,

> >     I have been looking for an answer to the very solid ESOL-related

> > questions raised by this post. Perhaps I have missed the response. I am

> > especially interested in the question raised concerning whether the

tests

> > mentioned in the study were normed for a non-native speaking population

> > (a validity/reliability issue). I am also interested in what impact lack

> > of cultural reference/schema as well as other ESOL issues may have had

on

> > the results. Finally, of course there is the issue of a

native/non-native

> > speaker's natural approach/bent (whether they tend to be top-down or

> > bottom-up in thinking) and what impact that may have on his/her approach

> > to reading.

> >

> > Suzi Monti

> >

> > TESOL Instructor - Maryland Bible College and Seminary, International

> > Institute of Linguistics

> >

> > ESOL Curriculum Developer, Instructional Specialist, and Intake

> > Asssessment Specialist - Community College of Baltimore County, Center

> > for Adult and Family Literacy

> >

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov

> > [mailto:specialtopics-bounces at nifl.gov]On Behalf Of Nicole Graves

> > Sent: Wednesday May 24, 2006 9:06 PM

> > To: specialtopics at nifl.gov

> > Subject: [SpecialTopics 32] ESOL diagnostic testing

> >

> >

> >

> > Hi John and Ros,

> >

> > I find the discussions most interesting.  Thank you!

> >

> > I teach adult ESOL.  Previously, I worked as a special education teacher

> > and as a reading teacher (children).  Several of our learners are

> > non-readers or struggling readers.  I'm currently teaching a beginning

> > level ESOL group and an ESOL/literacy class.  We formed the Lit class

> > based on needs of the students: high level speakers, non- or low-reading

> > level, no or very low -level in writing.  What diagnostic tests would

you

> > suggest for this population in order to find strenghts and instructional

> > needs?  Wouldn't tests normed on a population of native speakers be

> > somewhat inaccurate for ESOL learners?  Depending on the native

language,

> > I can see that in certain cases some tests might work fairly well.  But

> > what of others with different alphabets and different ways? Chinese

> > learners do not sound out words.  Russians do not actually spell words,

> > etc.

> >

> > Thanks again.

> >

> > Nicole B. Graves

> > Teacher/ESOL Program Coordinator

> > The Center for New Americans

> > Amherst, Greenfield, Northampton, MA

> >

>

>

>

> John Strucker, EdD

> Nichols House 303

> Harvard Graduate School of Education

> 7 Appian Way

> Cambridge, MA 02138

>

> 617 495 4745

> 617 495 4811 (fax)

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