Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 09:52:08 EST
Subject: Fwd: [FRCtech2002] Digest Number 29


------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 22 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: Pneumatic solenoids [sic]
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      2. Re: Timing issues
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      3. On parts usage and fabrication
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      4. Drive Train and Motor Newsletter
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      5. Re: Mostly electronics questions
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      6. FedEx shipping to regionals
           From: FIRST Robotics <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      7. RE: On parts usage and fabrication
           From: "Dillard, Gary J" <gary.j.dillard@lmco.com>
      8. Regarding the Autodesk Visualization Award formats
           From: FIRST Robotics <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      9. Re: Music in Chairman's Award
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     10. Re: please respond quickly
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     11. Drill Motor and Atwood Motor Fusing
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     12. What Are Bearings?
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     13. What's A Belt?
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     14. Re: Tire marks on soccer ball???
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     15. Bosch EcoSlide Bearings?
           From: "bmusser1" <bmusser1@yahoo.com>
     16. Re: Bosch EcoSlide Bearings?
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     17. Contact With The Goal
           From: "markpettit" <markpettit@yahoo.com>
     18. Re: Contact With The Goal
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     19. clarification
           From: "azizh1" <azizh01@hotmail.com>
     20. Re: clarification of goal interaction
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     21. [Fwd: rules confusion]
           From: mitch johnson <mjohnson@atech.org>
     22. Re: [Fwd: rules confusion]
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>


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Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:52:08 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pneumatic solenoids [sic]

Q: The kit came with several selenoids.  Our qestion is:
1. Can we use more than the number provided in the kit;
2. Can we use all singles, all doubles or any mix we desire?

A: You're limited to what you have. Please direct all pneumatics 
questions to fhord@hpeco.com, listed in Appendix F of the manual.

M4






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Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:39:42 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Timing issues

> The 2002 guidelines for the animation competition state:
> "Animation cannot be more than 30 seconds. Timing begins as soon as 
> your still frame with the required identifying information clears 
the 
> screen. To ensure accurate timing of your Entry, we suggest you make 
> a clean break to animation."
> 
> But, the picture on the bottom of the page shows a gap between the 
> identifying information and the animation content. This gap is the 
> same size as the suggested 5 second gap after the animation. Do we 
> include a gap between the title and animation or not?

A) Per page 12 in the Awards section of the manual:

"Questions: If you have questions regarding the Autodesk Award for 
Visualization or Entry Requirements, please write to Autodesk at: 
first.entries@autodesk.com."

-----
ER





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Message: 3
   Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:44:37 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: On parts usage and fabrication

We continue to receive numerous posts from teams asking if they can 
use this material or that material, and if they can manufacture this 
thing or that item from it. While we would like to respond to every 
one of these posts, they take FIRST's unfortunately limited time away 
from responding to the more detailed and important technical 
implementation questions that teams have.

To repeat post 350: You can use the quantities in your 2002 Kit of 
Parts plus the 
quantities of material in the Additional Hardware List plus whatever 
you can buy from Small Parts... but you still have the 130 lb. robot 
weight limit.

You can buy "additional" parts and material above the quantities in 
the Kit and Additional Hardware List to have as "spares" in case 
something fails on your robot. 

Follow the Pneumatics rules as well. They've been reiterated in team 
updates and posted here several times.

If it wasn't provided in the kit and not available through the 
resources above, it cannot be used in this year's competition. Carbon 
fiber is not a substitute for fiberglass. (Maybe next year.) A 2x2 
square of lumber is not a substitute for 1x4s. We're about to go to 
the questions about bearings assemblies.

The point of the competition is to manufacture whatever you need out 
of those allowed raw materials, as long as you don't violate the 
weight limit rules or any other rules that control manufacturing or 
the game or anything else. If you want to build wheels out of plywood 
that followed the additional hardware list rules, go for it. If you 
want to build a small Eiffel tower out of parts you can get from the 
Small Parts catalog, without violating the height restriction, go for 
it. Read the construction, safety and usage rules. Please avoid 
peppering the board with questions of this type, because it slows 
down our ability to answer the questions that need our ruling or 
opinion on a gray area or a technical implementation. 

We read and respond to, delete or reject every post. Let us help all 
of you better by keeping the posts focused on things that really 
aren't clear. If we could organize the information better to make it 
easier to find, make a constructive suggestion and we will do our 
best to make it happen. 

What's great is that there are a lot of apparent rookies using the 
board. That's a good thing. We can answer questions about rules, some 
technical parts questions, important interpretations, etc. We can't 
really help tell you how to build your robot or best practices on 
using different components - yet. Check with your engineer mentors. 
Hook up with teams in your area that are willing to be mentors (using 
our map.) Ask for help in the Technical forum on Delphi. 

And again - we apologize for whatever confusion we caused with the # 
of cylinders and the goal interaction details. It's not an excuse but 
this is a new process for us too, and our intent is only to get more 
resources out here in the public domain that everyone can use. 

Thanks for your assistance.





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Message: 4
   Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:19:20 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Drive Train and Motor Newsletter

All, thought you might be interested in the following technical 
discussion about drive trains and motors. Looks like a lot of 
excellent material in here. While ChiefDelphi isn't an "official" 
FIRST resource, it is a great website with very dedicated FIRSTers 
contributing daily. Very useful material here - enjoy, and thanks Ken!
***********
Hello Everyone,

    Have you ever wondered how the Drive Train works on your 
robot?  Or, what's so special about the new black motor you got from 
the kit of parts?  Have you ever spend half an hour flipping through 
the manual looking for motors' blueprint/specs?  Or, spending hours 
online searching for places to buy gears/sprockets?

    If you are like me, or any engineers on any of the teams out 
there, you would be thinking a lot about motors and gears (or 
sprockets, depend on your preference)·  There are so many things you 
have to think about for the robot·  And so little time to waste on 
finding information you need·

                So, what I am about to show you is made especially 
for people like us, who like to stay up all night thinking about the 
robot, or gear ratio for what motor, or what motors for what 
components, or how to put together a 4 motor drive train.  

    What I am talking about is a newsletter named "Fresh from the 
forum", summarizing discussions happened on the chiefdelphi.com forum 
about the FIRST Robotics competition.  I just finished a second one 
that will provide you a lot of useful information for building the 
robot.  Specifically, this edition of newsletter will include ALL you 
can find about motors, gears/sprockets, and drive train from 
chiefdelphi.com forum.  

The newsletter, "Motor and drive train edition" of Fresh From the 
Forum, is located @ 
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2108 
inside the "Bulletins and Newsletters" forum. 

Table of content:

I.  FIRST 2002 Motors in General
II. In depth discussion of specific motors
III.    Gears
IV. Drive train
V.  Wheels and treads / Traction

Even if you aren't interested in the mechanical aspect of the robot, 
chances are, someone from you team is.  So, please don't ignore this 
e-mail.  Forward it to your team member, and other people/teams who 
might be interested in this.  

Please feel free to come in and take a look.  Decide for yourself if 
all the information is worth the time reading.  Even if you've 
decided everything for your robot, it is still worth the time saving 
these information for future reference.

So, without taking any more of your time, please go ahead and click 
on the link above and take a look.  You might see something you 
like ;-)

"Gotten busy with your team now that season has started? Don't fret, 
all the need-to-know info from the chiefdelphi.com forums right here 
at your fingertips..." -Fresh From the Forum

Thanks for your time.  And good luck with the competition.  :-)

-Ken Leung 
1999-2001: Team 192 GRT 
2001~????: Team 000, 100, 192, 258, 419·




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Message: 5
   Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 21:52:25 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Mostly electronics questions

> Would a ribbon cable be considered an entanglement risk? 1" wide?
> 5" wide? 1 foot wide?
A) It depends on how you use it.  Ribbon cables make sense but it 
depends where you expose them.

> If a ribbon cable were used would it be allowed to control a smaller
> robot that could run to the end zone when the primary robot was in
> the goal scoring zone?
A) It is allowed unless it is a possible entanglement issue but this 
would likely be a potential high risk.

> Is an optical sensor purchased from an approved supplier considered
> to be a custom circuit and must be completely contained in the
> custom circuit box or can it be placed in the project box?
A) Optical sensors purchased from Digi-Key or Future Electronics must 
be contained inside the custom circuit box.  They may not be in the 
project box or elsewhere on the robot.

> Must all of the custom circuit fit in a single custom circuit box?
A) Yes, the BUD box specified on the Additional Hardware list.

> If I want to count the teeth on a sprocket with an IR sensor is
> there any approved sensor I can place outside of the custom box to
> do this, if so can it be connected to either the first controller
> or a custom circuit? If not is the gear allowed to enter the custom
> box so an IR device could count the teeth?
A)  If it is outside the box, then it must be one of the supplied 
sensors.  You may also purchase switches per the Additional Hardware 
List, such as non-contact reed switches that work with permanent 
magnets, and use those anywhere on the robot.  Alternately, the gear 
may be extended into the custom circuit enclosure in order to be 
measured with sensors located inside the box.

> The rules state that masking or duct tape is not allowed to be used
> in the construction of the robot. Would we be allowed to fabricate
> a device that would dispense masking tape on the carpet as an
> extension of the robot for the purpose of being in 2 separate zones
> and be tethered to both? Would it still count if we zipped a piece
> of tape straight to the goal scoring zone, broke the tape, did
> everything else we wanted, then drove the robot into the goal zone
> and had our wheels touching the tape? Would we be in 2 zones?
A) Absolutely no, no, no.

> May we use a mirror to deflect the infrared sensor to aid in detect
> infrared? If not how about aluminum foil? If not, how about polished
> aluminum?
A) You can use whatever was in your Kit of Parts, what is on the
Add'l 
Hardware List or whatever you can buy from Small Parts.  See Rule K1. 
Teams may not devise devices with the intent to interfere with
sensors 
on other robots.

> If we are using a stamp processor in our custom circuit, is there
> any port on the innovation first controller we may use to pass
> serin and serout data between the two? At first glance it looks
> like we need to use the digital ports to simulate data transfer
> between the two.
A) No.  The custom circuit may only be connected to the robot 
controller via the digital and analog input ports and/or the PWM and 
Relay outputs.

-----
FIRSTsnow





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Message: 6
   Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:12:22 -0800 (PST)
   From: FIRST Robotics <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: FedEx shipping to regionals

We've started receiving questions about the FedEx
shipping arrangements. **Rather than replying
specifically to the individual posts, here's a more
detailed explanation.**

Fedex will cover the cost of shipping your robot
crate, up to 400 lbs, to one regional event, to the
Championship if you're going, and home. (Home meaning
in all cases wherever you want the robot crate picked
up and sent back to.) The airbills provided in your
kit of parts are for this purpose.

Using an excellent example conveniently provided by a
highly respected member of ChiefDelphi, who will
remain nameless (Joe), let us illustrate. ;-)

*** Multiple regionals and the Championship ***
A team is going to 2 regionals and the Championship
Event.  This requires 4 robot shipments:

1) to first regional from home
2) to second regional from first regional
3) to Championship Event from second regional
4) to home from the Championship Event.

Q: Which of these shipments will FedEx make for us for
free?

A: Fedex would cover shipments 1, 2 and 4, or
shipments 2, 3 and 4. This is up to the team to decide
which option minimizes the costs for their regional.

*** Multiple regionals, no Championship ***
1) to first regional from home
2) to second regional from first regional
3) to nth regional from nth -1 regional
4) to home from nth regional

A: FedEx would cover any one of 1, 2 and 3, with 4.
Bottom line, one robot crate to one regional of your
choice, and home.

*** One regional and the Championship ***
This requires 3 robot shipments:
1.) To the regional from home
2.) To the Championship from the regional
3.) To home from the Championship

A: FedEx would cover all three shipments.

*** One regional, no Championship ***
Fedex will cover the shipment to the regional event,
and home.

Will FIRST arrange for other carriers to be 
available [at] the end of an event for the shipment
that FedEx will not 
pay for (e.g. Yellow Freight)?

A: Good question. We'll be posting that information
shortly.

Build on!

-M4

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com


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Message: 7
   Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:08:49 -0500
   From: "Dillard, Gary J" <gary.j.dillard@lmco.com>
Subject: RE: On parts usage and fabrication

At the risk of getting flooded with questions from
rookies.....................
 
Team 180 SPAM (and I'm sure almost all of the other veteran teams) would
love to help out with mentoring rookie teams, maybe helping to filter out
some of the questions about general rules and materials before they get
posted and save you some time.  Problem is, I suspect many of the rookie
teams either don't feel right "bothering" other teams or don't know the
avenues to ask questions other than this forum.  We posted our team as
willing to mentor and haven't received any requests (that I'm aware of -
hopefully our website links are working), and I have no success contacting
the rookie teams in our state - either they don't have a website up or the
website listed with FIRST is a generic school site.
 
Rookie teams - You aren't bothering us!  We'd all love to help, just ask -
there are no dumb questions, and if your robot is better it makes us compete
better.  Use the mentoring maps, check out the forums at Delphi.  If you
come across a team website with a message board or guest book, sign in and
let them know you need help.
 

Gary J. Dillard 
Lockheed Martin - Perry Technologies 
561-494-2437 



[This message contained attachments]



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Message: 8
   Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:00:52 -0800 (PST)
   From: FIRST Robotics <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Regarding the Autodesk Visualization Award formats

Regarding the Autodesk Award for Visualization,
Autodesk has done some testing and found that
rendering 30 seconds of animation "uncompressed"
yields files larger than can be stored on a CDROM. 

Because of this, we ask that submittors use the
Cinepak codec at 640 x 480 and 100%  quality. This
setting will yield good results and provide a standard
of comparison for the teams.  

We will add this to the next team update.

-M4

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com


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Message: 9
   Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 01:13:07 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Music in Chairman's Award

Q: Using music in the Chairman's award, does it all have to be written 
and performed for the award or have a written consent from the label? 
 Meaning, do we need
                 to get written consent to use any copywritted musc in 
the award for eligability?
                  
                 Thanks a bunch,
                  
                 Adam Thompson

A: Adam, great question, thanks for asking. In the spirit of gracious 
professionalism, any/all  music used in a video submission should be 
"acknowledged" in the end credits---
ie: "Burning Down The House" by Talking Heads
(or maybe more appropriately, "You Gotta Fight For Your Right to 
Party" by Beastie Boys) 

You don't need to get consent from the music label as long as 
you provide this acknowledgement/credit.

-M4




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Message: 10
   Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 01:46:52 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: please respond quickly

Hello, I posted a question about a week and a half ago, and it has 
                still not received an answer. It is very important, so 
please answer 
                quickly. The question was:

                The Canadian skyway distributor is out of stock of the 
skyway wheels 
                that we need and they won't have any more for about 2 
weeks. We can't 
                afford to lose this time. They sold us some wheels 
that they say are 
                exactly the same as the skyway wheels, except that 
they don't have 
                the skyway logo on them. Are these wheels acceptable 
to use?

                Also, could you please let us know if we are allowed 
to make 
                permanant skid marks on the balls?

                Thanks in advance. A quick response would be very much 
appreciated.

A: We wiped out most posts that looked too old or duplicated from 
previous weeks, hoping to keep the backlog down. If we angered some of 
you by doing this, we're sorry, but we had to take a hammer to try to 
avoid wading through piles of questions we thought we'd answered.

Yes, these wheels will be acceptable, just keep docs on the specs to 
back it up if asked.

And, yes, skid marks on the balls are expected... we hope they're only 
being caused by a throwing mechanism with tires.... 




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Message: 11
   Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 03:14:29 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Drill Motor and Atwood Motor Fusing

We apologize for having deleted the original message that this 
response was to answer.

Figure 2.1 in the manual incorrectly shows the Drill and Atwood motor 
fused with a 20A breaker.  It should be 30A.  We will also put this 
into a Team Update.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 12
   Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 03:16:53 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: What Are Bearings?

We apologize for having deleted the original message that this 
response was to answer.

When the Additional Hardware list says bearings, any size, any 
amount, that is exactly it.  A ball slide, linear bearings, and the 
like are considered bearings.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 13
   Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 03:24:03 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: What's A Belt?

We apologize for having deleted the original message that this 
response was to answer.

What is a belt?  A precise definition will serve no purpose except to 
stimulate more questions so... if a store's product is, for example, 
called "XYZ belting" or the like, i.e., it has "belt" in the product 
name, not necessarily what the store personnel call it, then it is 
okay to use as per the Additional Hardware list.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 14
   Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 03:27:57 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Tire marks on soccer ball???

> Are black tire marks on the soccer ball considered damaging the 
> ball?   Our team is planning to use a wheel supplied from the kit 
to toss the soccer balls.  Tire marks are left on the ball.  Is that 
> acceptable?

A) Toss away!  We do expect that the balls will get marked up.  We 
do, however, try to avoid poking the balls (or eyes, for that matter) 
with sharp objects.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 15
   Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 15:32:19 -0000
   From: "bmusser1" <bmusser1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Bosch EcoSlide Bearings?

Are we allowed to use Bosch EcoSlide Bearings to provide a bearing 
for linear motion.  The bearing would ride in the Bosch Rail 
channel.  Members of our team were assuming yes since, according to 
the Additional Hardware "Bearings" it says any amount any size.  
Would thier assumption be true.  Thanks.

Team 226




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Message: 16
   Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 03:35:36 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Bosch EcoSlide Bearings?

> Are we allowed to use Bosch EcoSlide Bearings to provide a bearing 
> for linear motion.  The bearing would ride in the Bosch Rail 
> channel.  Members of our team were assuming yes since, according to 
> the Additional Hardware "Bearings" it says any amount any size.  
> Would thier assumption be true.

A) Yes.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 17
   Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:24:50 -0000
   From: "markpettit" <markpettit@yahoo.com>
Subject: Contact With The Goal

Our robot is designed to "nest" the goal by pulling it into an 
octagonal shaped indentation.
May we add a 45 degree angle to the "nest" so that when we pull the 
goal into the nest (by the waterpipe), the goal will ride up the said 
angle.
The angled piece will be, at most, one inch wide and all contact 
would be made with the very corner edge of the top piece of plywood's 
angle iron.
Thanks,





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Message: 18
   Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 03:43:53 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Contact With The Goal

> Our robot is designed to "nest" the goal by pulling it into an 
> octagonal shaped indentation.  May we add a 45 degree angle to 
the "nest" so that when we pull the goal into the nest (by the 
waterpipe), the goal will ride up the said angle.  The angled piece 
will be, at most, one inch wide and all contact would be made with 
the very corner edge of the top piece of plywood's angle iron.

A)According to response #571 in Yahoo, this is allowed.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 19
   Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:25:02 -0000
   From: "azizh1" <azizh01@hotmail.com>
Subject: clarification

I need to clarify something, say we grab a goal by the 12" bars and 
pull it into our robot and we have a wedge that pushes on the bottom 
lip of the top piece of stainless steel & plywood, which gives us 
some additional downwards force on our robot, Now we are not lifting 
the goal and we are not holding on to the goal only by the top peace 
of angle. Is this ok?




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Message: 20
   Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 03:47:57 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: clarification of goal interaction

> I need to clarify something, say we grab a goal by the 12" bars and 
> pull it into our robot and we have a wedge that pushes on the 
bottom lip of the top piece of stainless steel & plywood, which gives 
us some additional downward force on our robot.  Is this ok?

A)According to response #571 in Yahoo, this is allowed. FIRSTsnow




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Message: 21
   Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:59:31 -0800
   From: mitch johnson <mjohnson@atech.org>
Subject: [Fwd: rules confusion]



mitch johnson wrote:

> I am confused by two messages 483 and 461.    461 states that  gears,
> pulleys, casters, and bearings must be an exact match to spi catalog but
>
> 483 states that additional  hardware can be purchased anywhere.  Since
> appendix c states bearings, sprockets, gears, and pulleys Does that not
> imply that we can purchase and use any bearings, sprockets, gears, and
> pulleys from any source even if it is not an exact match in the spi
> catalog?  Other wise why are teams allowed to manufacture their own
> drive systems?
> thank you




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Message: 22
   Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 03:57:58 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: rules confusion]

> > I am confused by two messages 483 and 461.  461 states that  
gears, pulleys, casters, and bearings must be an exact match to spi 
catalog but 483 states that additional hardware can be purchased 
anywhere.  Since appendix c states bearings, sprockets, gears, and 
pulleys Does that not
> > imply that we can purchase and use any bearings, sprockets, 
gears, and
> > pulleys from any source even if it is not an exact match in the 
spi
> > catalog

A) Anything listed in the Additional Hardware list can be bought any 
where you wish.  If you need an item and it was not one of the items 
in your 2002 Kit of Parts and not on the Additional Hardware list, 
then you scan the SPI catalog.  If it is there, you can use it.  If 
SPI is out or heavily baclordered, you can go any where you wish BUT 
it must be exactly like the SPI you would have gotten.  The sources 
are additive and the order in which you check your sources are K of 
P, Add'l Hdwe list, and SPI.  FIRSTsnow




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