Interview with Leland O. Carmany and Lillian Carmany [May 7, 2001]

Tom Swope:

This is the oral history of World War II Veteran Leland O. Carmany. Mr. Carmany served in the U.S. Army's 93rd Ordnance Company. They were attached to the Fifth and Seventh Armies. He served in North Africa, Sicily, Italy, and in the Rhineland and Central Europe. His highest rank was corporal. I'm Tom Swope [ph], and this recording was made at Mr. Carmany's home in Willoughby, Ohio, on May 7th, 2001. Lee was 85 at the time of this recording.

Tom Swope:

[?Where?] was your hometown during the war?

Leland Carmany:

My hometown was --

Leland Carmany:

Where were we during the war, Lillian?

Lillian Carmany:

Well --

Leland Carmany:

I mean, when I -- when -- when I enlisted.

Lillian Carmany:

You didn't enlist.

Leland Carmany:

Or drafted.

Lillian Carmany:

We lived in Cleveland, almost on the --

Leland Carmany:

On the borderline. You couldn't even --

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

Yeah, down by the beach there. Just on that curve, you know.

Tom Swope:

Right.

Leland Carmany:

Yeah. In that apartment, yeah.

Tom Swope:

So when -- when were you drafted?

Leland Carmany:

19 -- 1940 -- 1943, I think.

Lillian Carmany:

'42.

Leland Carmany:

'42?

Lillian Carmany:

Yeah. We were married a year and four months.

Leland Carmany:

Yeah, '42.

Tom Swope:

Would -- about what time in '42?

Leland Carmany:

It was in -- I think September. That was right after -- yeah. Uh-huh. Wait a minute. I hit the -- I think it's in that part.

Tom Swope:

Yes. It's right here, 1942.

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

Let me take this --

Leland Carmany:

Yeah, 1942 to 1945. Yeah.

Tom Swope:

-- out of your way.

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

Okay.

Leland Carmany:

Yeah, that -- that's when it -- there's -- part of it's over there, so -- yeah.

Tom Swope:

What was your unit?

Leland Carmany:

93rd Ordnance. 93rd Ordnance.

Lillian Carmany:

Ordnance Maintenance

Leland Carmany:

Yeah. I started out -- when I first entered the service, I was in the -- I was down in Fort Bliss in -- and then it -- there was -- they trained me for 216 Battalion, the big guns.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

216. Automatic weapons. And then from -- I was -- went through basic in -- in that, 216, on 90-millimeter guns. Then just towards -- towards the end of my -- well, anyway, 93rd was there and they -- they were all -- they were going overseas. They were short two men. Guess who got -- guess who they picked? Me. So I -- so that's how I got into the 93rd. And I wasn't trained for the 93rd. I was on the guns, see.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

But they -- they needed to fill two vacancies, so --

Tom Swope:

Were you glad to make that change?

Leland Carmany:

At first, yeah. I was very -- yeah, because I knew everybody in the unit, you know, and we were all, you know, buddy-buddy. Yeah, I was very -- I was down on that one, yeah. Because I -- I didn't know anybody, see, so -- that was at Fort Bliss.

Tom Swope:

That's where -- Fort Bliss was where?

Leland Carmany:

Texas.

Tom Swope:

In Texas. All right.

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

The 93rd, is that a division, regiment? What's the -- is that?

Leland Carmany:

It's a company.

Tom Swope:

That's the company?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

And what division was that?

Leland Carmany:

Different divisions. We were with the Fifth Army --

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

-- the Seventh Army, but mostly with the Fifth. But we -- then we transferred to the Seventh. Then we come back to the Fifth. So --

Tom Swope:

Wherever you were needed --

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

-- that sort of thing? I think my dad was the Seventh Army, as a matter of fact.

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

Was that General Patch, Seventh Army?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

Yeah?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

That was his?

Leland Carmany:

Also, the other guy. What -- what's the one that's so fame --

Tom Swope:

Patton?

Leland Carmany:

-- famous?

Tom Swope:

Patton?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

You were with his --

Leland Carmany:

Yeah, with his division, too. Yeah, he was rough, yeah.

Tom Swope:

Did you ever meet him?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah -- no, I didn't meet him but I -- I saw him -- saw him. You know, I saw him making going through the camps, you know.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

Oh, he was a son of a gun.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

Yeah. You'd better be des -- dressed properly or he --

Tom Swope:

Yeah?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

What kind of stories did you hear about that?

Leland Carmany:

About him?

Tom Swope:

Yeah.

Leland Carmany:

The only story I heard was about him going to the hospital that one -- you probably heard the same story.

Tom Swope:

Sure.

Leland Carmany:

I heard that.

Tom Swope:

The one -- the one that was in the movie? Right.

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

Where he slapped a soldier for --

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

-- battle fatigue, I believe it was?

Leland Carmany:

Right. Yeah.

Tom Swope:

What was your rank?

Leland Carmany:

I ended up corporal. Started out private, ended up corporal.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

I wasn't good enough to go on beyond that.

Tom Swope:

Well, that's something.

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

So specifically, what was your military job?

Leland Carmany:

Oh, boy. My job was taking care of the mail. I had to -- I had to trace the mail wherever it was. I was - - I went out in the jeep with -- and found out where it was at. Sometimes -- I got over the German lines a couple of times, didn't know it. You know, so I had to trace the mail, and besides that, I took care of the -- the -- their records in the office. Then they transferred me back in the shop for repairs, which I didn't know my ass from a hole in the ground. I said -- I think they gave that up and they put me back in the office again. I was handling the mail and stuff where we -- wherever we were. And that's mainly the job I had.

Tom Swope:

Do you remember anything specifically about any of those times you went over into the German -- over the German lines?

Leland Carmany:

No, I got my ass out of them -- out of there. I saw the -- I saw the guy, you know. Another guy was with me and we just -- he -- the German was back, you know, and I just went over there and -- I don't know how I spotted him but I did. I saw him -- both of us saw -- saw him. Boy, we took off like a ruptured duck. And he didn't -- he didn't shoot us -- shoot at us or anything.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

But I was lucky. I don't know whether he saw us or not, you know.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

But I -- I was lucky to get back, yeah.

Tom Swope:

Yeah. Did you have a -- have -- see much action? Did you have any air raids or anything like that?

Leland Carmany:

Oh, one after another. We'd see -- I -- we landed in Africa, but -- where was that? Yeah, we landed in Africa at -- it might be in the other book.

Lillian Carmany:

Then Sicily.

Tom Swope:

Switch back and forth?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Lillian Carmany:

Then Sicily.

Tom Swope:

Then went to Sicily? So maybe you --

Leland Carmany:

Oran. We landed in Oran on May 11th, 1943. Arrived in -- in '43. Left Oran on June 7, 1943, and landed in and left for Ferryville, Tu -- Tunisia, North Africa. And we were there for I don't know how long. Ah, we moved all this -- all this -- all this -- well, in one of these -- yeah, I was right at the beginning here. I don't know whether it was Ferryville or when it was. We were camped on a hillside and with other -- other regiments and stuff, and they had a -- not an earthquake but a -- what's the -- not an earthquake, but what is it, that where you're --

Tom Swope:

In the desert, you mean?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

What do they call those, whirling dervish or whatever? Like a little tornado kind of thing?

Leland Carmany:

Tornado.

Tom Swope:

Right. Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

Tunor -- tornado. Yeah, we were on a --

Tom Swope:

Dust devil, I think?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah, whatever it was. Yeah. And they -- that came through. Picked up a lot of tents and all that and -- we had a heck of a time. But it missed us. Missed our tent is all. They went over that. Then later on, you know, you -- and you are not supposed to talk to the Africans or the women there, you know. The men -- the men -- or the women follow the men and the women are -- are -- have masks on -- not masks but, you know --

Tom Swope:

Right.

Leland Carmany:

-- cover their face or their eyes. So you're not -- and you're not -- and you don't talk to 'em. If -- if you talk to 'em -- you'd better not talk to 'em. He -- he follows the -- or she follows him or I don't know which -- which is which, but anyway. So one -- one night-- or one -- one morning, I woke up early -- real early in the morning. It was a rack --racket going on. And there was some soldier from another outfit was -- talked to this woman. And so he snuck into the camp and killed -- killed the soldier that was talking to the woman. Had blood all over the ground, the whole bit. So that taught us a lesson there, you know. So we -- we had to ignore 'em, that's all.

Tom Swope:

And that was in Tunisia?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah. Or one of those places. Ferryville or Tunisia.

Tom Swope:

Where was Ferryville, again? Do you know which country that was?

Leland Carmany:

Moved to Ferryville -- I think it was in Tunisia. Still in Tunisia. I think so.

Tom Swope:

Yeah. Let's see. Here we go.

Leland Carmany:

Then we --

Tom Swope:

At Ferryville, Tunisia, North Africa.

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

All right.

Leland Carmany:

Then we moved to Ferryville concentration area on July 7, '43. Moved from Ferryville to Bizerte Bay. You know, Bizerte, that's where they had that -- Bizerte, they had a hell of a battle there, Bizerte. Yeah. So that's -- so that's -- that's -- and then -- that's where we -- there. Then we moved from -- on July 7, 1943, we moved to Ferryville, Bizerte Bay assembly area. Yeah, that -- that's right after they -- yeah. Then we sailed from Bizerte on August 6, 1943, to Palermo, Sicily, yeah. So we were there for -- August 7th, '43, andleft September 10th, '43. That was a nice -- nice city.

Tom Swope:

Is that Palermo?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

Yeah?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

What can you tell me about that?

Leland Carmany:

We were in a kind -- we were up on a -- just like bald mountain, like that, you know. And we sat up there like a -- that -- it was a palace. I -- I'd call it a palace, you know.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

And we -- we were up kind of high. And I was bunked with -- this is where I was bunked with a guy, with one of the -- my buddies. And they continuously had air -- air raids. Almost every -- every night, they had air raids. And we were on the fifth floor, so we had to go up -- you know, up and down, up and down. And my buddy -- we always wore -- leave the clothes out right outside our -- our beds, so we'd grab our pants and slip into 'em and -- and we'd get down to the -- the hole down below, in the dugout -- or in the dugout where the hole is dug, you know,where you go down.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

So it just so -- I don't know how it happened, but he happened -- I guess we were excited. It was a hell of an air raid going on. He grabs my pants and he's -- he was about six -- oh, hell, I don't know. He -- he was a lot taller than I was. He grabs my pants and puts 'em on. And our we didn't have time to change pants. He had this -- my pants up --just below his knee or something or a little lower. I put his pants on, and the damn -- his-- my -- his pants were down below my shoes, and I could hardly get down the damn steps going down. And all I was -- was in a hurry, you know.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

So we had a lot of fun on that one. Yeah. So

Tom Swope:

Were there any real close calls with the air raids?

Leland Carmany:

Not -- not with me, no.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

No. I stuck my snoot out a lots of times I shouldn't have, but I did, you know, but no. But some of those air raids, I was afraid I -- well, there was a couple of 'em I didn't -- we didn't go down because they were so fragile that when you'd have an air raid and they were -- they were dropping bombs, too, out in the seaside, and the damn sand was coming down, you know, and we was afraid that we'd be buried down there. They had -- you know. So there was a couple of times we didn't go down. It was -- we were afraid to go down, some of us. Some of 'em went down, some didn't, but we -- I didn't go down in a couple of them.

Tom Swope:

So where would you take cover then?

Leland Carmany:

I'd take my chances on the outside.

Lillian Carmany:

You were on guard duty one night, weren't you, when you had an air raid?

Leland Carmany:

Huh?

Tom Swope:

You were --

Lillian Carmany:

You were on guard duty one night when you had an air raid, weren't ya?

Leland Carmany:

Had what?

Tom Swope:

You were on guard duty once when you -- there was an air raid?

Leland Carmany:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You had to -- you had to -- you had to stick to your station, too. I mean, yeah, took cover if you could find some, yeah.

Tom Swope:

But you had to stay pretty close to where you were assigned?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Swope:

All right.

Leland Carmany:

Right. Yeah. So I -- you know, so that was -- that was Palermo. That was a nice --

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

Nice country. Yeah. Then we got a call to -- we went over to the boot where the -- Messina -- cross -- it says left Turmany, October at '43. Spent the night at Messina. Crossed the Messina Straits into Italy on October 24th, '43. And arrived at Avellino, Italy, on October 29th,'40 -- '43. And then we -- we just kept going up the boot, you know. Then -- let's see. Then we got -- got to Avellino November 2nd, '43, and arrived in Al -- Aversa, Italy, November '43. We set -- they -- we set up shop there. Then we moved to Caserta. That's where they had a lot of battles, Caserta, yeah. So we got -- we went -- we were behind the troops. And that was really -- that town was really butchered up.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

Butchered up. Yeah. I don't know where we -- yeah.

Tom Swope:

Remember much about the -- the people there at the -- the town?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah. That -- yeah, we -- well, in Naples, we stayed the longest. We stayed almost a -- I don't know. I don't know how long we stayed in Naples. That's Caserta. And then we made -- moved to Santa Maria and then back to Caserta. And we spent a lot of time in Naples, quite a few months.

Tom Swope:

What can you tell me about Naples?

Leland Carmany:

Well, very exciting.

Tom Swope:

And? Is that all you have to say?

Leland Carmany:

Let's see.

Tom Swope:

How was it exciting?

Leland Carmany:

How was it exciting?

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

The girls.

Tom Swope:

Okay.

Leland Carmany:

And the kids -- the kids were all starving, you know. You'd eat your dinner and something,and you'd always try to save something for them because they -- they were always rooting through your garbage. If you had anything left, why, they took it. Little kids. Little, tiny kids. They were all hungry. So, well, if you had anything left over, boy, they grabbed it. And if we had anything that they'd like, why, we'd give it to 'em.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

And then they were very con -- they were really -- in fact, we were invited to some spaghetti at some of the Italian places, and they were real nice. They gave us a drink of wine and that. Real nice. Of course, the girls were real nice, too. So when we had to take a shower -- we were in a grove, olive grove. So when you'd take -- we'd -- they'd put a five-gallon can up on the limb of a tree and we'd take a shower. Well, these girls would come along, you know. They weren't embarrassed. Hell, they -- you know, they'd start hollering, "Gum, gum," you know. They wanted -- they liked gum.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

And here I am taking a shower and everything, and she was hollering, "Gum." And all at once, she -- she started getting closer and closer. So -- so I was in a hurry to get my clothes -- clothes on, so -- so she -- she takes out her boob and [demonstrating]. She was pregnant, had milk in her boob, and she was squirting at me with it. They did the damndest stuff. Yeah. I never -- I never -- I couldn't believe that. And --

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh. Now, it was not -- it was not against regulations to fraternize with the Italians at that time?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah, we could fraternize with them, yeah.

Tom Swope:

Because they weren't necessarily -- well, is it at that point, the Italians had surrendered to --

Leland Carmany:

Well, they were --

Tom Swope:

They were beaten?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah. Yeah. They were sociable. Yeah, they -- they sur -- I guess the ______ surrendered. Whether they -- of course, the Italians surrendered quite a while back.

Tom Swope:

They surrendered fairly early.

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

Right. And it was --

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

-- the Germans that were fighting in Italy, right?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

They were -- they were trying to keep the --

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

-- advance. Stop the --

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

-- advance, right?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah. So we saw the -- the -- not the rose quarry. What do you call that that squirts out, out of mountains?

Tom Swope:

A volcano?

Leland Carmany:

Volcano.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

The volcano erupted while we were there.

Tom Swope:

And where was that?

Leland Carmany:

That was in -- I don't know where that was at. It was -- that was in -- I think it was in -- might have been in Naples. I don't know. Is that where the sports -- the arena was and that, that big arena and --

Tom Swope:

That would be maybe Rome, are you thinking?

Leland Carmany:

No, that wasn't Rome.

Tom Swope:

I think it's Rome.

Leland Carmany:

No, no.

Tom Swope:

I'm sure there probably is something like that in Naples, though.

Leland Carmany:

Yeah. Yeah. So they had this -- I'll probably see that in here. I don't know. I don't have a picture of it, but -- but they had a -- they had the volcano. We -- and we -- of course, we had to find out about it, so we walked up as far as we could go and looked into the volcano. It wasn't erupting then. Boy, it was really [demonstrating]. And then a couple of days later, why, it started -- the lava started going down the mountain, you know, red. We saw all that.

Tom Swope:

Wow.

Leland Carmany:

Yeah. So I -- that was something to see.

Tom Swope:

Then where did you go from -- from Naples, from Italy?

Leland Carmany:

Where was it? Caserta's Italy. Santa Maria, Caserta, Barbarino. Some of these towns I don't know, like Spara -- Sparanese. I suppose that's Italy; I don't know.

Tom Swope:

That sounds like it.

Leland Carmany:

Moved to camp -- Kompresja on June 4, 19 -- this move was through Rome. We're still in Italy. Through -- through Rome. Just a few days after it was captured. We set up 40 miles north of Rome. Then we moved to north of -- I don't know how you -- Piombino. And then they -- on July 9th, we were -- relieved front-line service and was sent back to staging area near Naples, arriving there June 11th, 1944. We went back to a staging area. Moved to assembly area in Naples. Then on -- started loading on September 18th, '44. Sailed from Naples 4:00 p.m. September 20, '44. Arrived in Tulane in convoy to Marseilles September 27th, 1944. So we were in France then.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

And that's when -- yeah. Yeah. Right in France. And that's when the lieutenant -- we'd sailed from Sicily to -- to Italy on -- on a boat. The sailors took us across.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

And when we got to Marseilles, why, then they -- they came up with the thing -- the sailors came up with a thing that -- that their covers for their mattresses was gone. You know, they put covers on them. And what else? Mattresses. They stole -- they claimed they stole mattresses -- we stole mattresses and other stuff. And they raised hell about it. So the lieutenant -- they were gonna find -- find the guys that had 'em and they were gonna court-martial 'em. So the lieutenant that I rode -- rode the jeep for, we headed for Marseilles. We weren't in Marseilles, but we had a -- we had a long drive. I don't know where we were at that time, maybe Naples or something. No, we weren't in Naples. We were still in France. But we had a long ride and we had to go up to where these guys were.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

We had some men out doing repairs on some guns and stuff, so we had to go up and get ahold of them because -- to warn 'em, you know. So we drove up where they were -- they were working, and he went in to talk to the captain of the group -- of our group that was working there and then went around to the guys. And I told 'em -- I says, "Duck your -- if you got any mattresses or anything else, you'd better -- you'd better ditch it." So all -- oh, they were having a fit.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

So meantime, the -- my lieutenant, he was talking to the captain. These guys were hustling around, getting rid of their mattress covers and the mattresses. I don't know what the -- I don't know what they did with them. He kept them there for quite a while until -- and then I -- you know, I told them -- I says, "You'd better get rid of those mattresses because [?he'll be?] coming around and inspecting." Well, he did come around and inspect, only they didn't -- they didn't find -- of course, they didn't find anything. I don't know what they did with them. So anyway, that's -- that was that. And -- on convoy to Marseilles. Then -- arrived in Charmes -- Charmes. I don't know where Charmes -- do you know where Charmes is? Is that France -- that's still France.

Tom Swope:

I believe that's France. Is it C-H-A-R-M-E-S?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

Yeah.

Leland Carmany:

Yeah. So then -- then we went to Germ -- we were in Germany.

Tom Swope:

When would that be in, when you were in Germany?

Leland Carmany:

Hmm? What's that?

Tom Swope:

When was that?

Leland Carmany:

Uh -- see. Left Saarbrucken on March -- well, must have been -- Saarbruck. It was in '45.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

Probably March -- somewhere around March, we were in Germany. And then we went to Kaiserslautern, wherever the hell that is. And then we went to Wattenheim. Left Dieburg April 9th, '45, and arrived in Motter [ph] -- I don't -- I can't pronounce some of these. Mottegray [ph]. But anyway, moved from Mannheim to Dachau -- that's a concentration camp -- on Tuesday, May 1st, 1945. In Dachau, we saw the crematorium and gas chambers used on the fru -- refugees and forced labor, and after they had been starved and worked almost to death. There were also about 50 railroad cars full of bodies. Spent the night in Dachau and moved to Munich the next -- next day. Boy, that was -- that was -- I'll never forget that, never. Bodies falling out of -- you know, in the boxcars, laying on the ground. They were just piled up everywhere. And there were some already in the crematory that was -- hadn't burned completely. When we went in there, we went in there about a day -- two days after the Army went through there, you know. They went through there and we went in there. The dogs were -- the master was -- I think he was up on -- he was up on top of the pile. There's all these dead bodies, and this dog -- dog was -- is out there howling all night at the top of the -- where the guys were. And I was on guard duty that night. And that's all I heard, is that damned dog squawking, you know. And the master was -- they killed him. And he -- I guess he was up -- he was up there, too. And they had probably three or four dogs. They shot all the dogs. Because the dogs, I guess, were guarding the prisoners or whatever. There must have been three or four big dogs. They killed -- they were all killed. And the smell, whew, I'll never forget that. That was -- that was something. But all these bodies laying around and everything. So that -- well, we only stayed there -- we only stayed there overnight. Got out of there in a hurry, yeah.

Tom Swope:

The master was the camp commander?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

Yeah?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah, he was the master.

Tom Swope:

And who killed him?

Leland Carmany:

Our soldiers. The --

Tom Swope:

The soldiers that came?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

So he was still there when the first -- when the Army came through?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah, he must have been.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

He was still there. Because they killed him.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

Yeah. But the dog they -- they didn't kill because he was howling when -- he was howling all night. I don't know why they didn't kill the dog.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

They killed all the other dogs. You know, they had the different pens where they kept the prisoners and stuff. They must have had about -- there must have been three or four dogs dead. We already had killed them.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

So -- and that was something else. Bad. So that -- so that was probably the highlight of what I -- what I saw.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh. As far as historical?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah, as far as historicals. Well, I had one -- close -- fairly close thing in Italy, in Naples. All right. It was in Naples. There was a gas dump across the road from us where we had where we had the gas dump, and we were on the other side of the road. And I was -- had guard duty that time. And as I was walking up and down, you know, pulling guard, I see'd this plane coming and I looked up and it was an American plane. And he come buzzing down there and -- it was an American plane, but it was a German driving it. He might have captured one. And all at once, he let go with his guns. I -- and he was coming down the middle of the road. And I could see these bullets hitting the pavement, you know. So I dived over to the ditch and he -- he waved like this and -- you know, and went on by. And the -- and he set fire to our dump, gas dump. And you never seen such a fire in your life. Yeah, we had -- we had a mess. And I'm -- so I climb out of the ditch and look over towards our camp, and our latrine was sitting there. And there comes -- there was two guys come out of the latrine with their pants hanging down. They didn't even have time to pull their pants up. They were standing there and I -- I had to laugh at 'em, they looked so funny. Pants down to their, you know, shoelaces. And they -- they were wondering, "What the hell's going on?" Yeah, you get some laughs out of it, too, you know.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

And that was funny. I wished I'd had a camera.

Tom Swope:

Yeah.

Leland Carmany:

I'd have had some fun on that.

Tom Swope:

Probably didn't let you take pictures anyway, right?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah.

Tom Swope:

They wouldn't let you keep the pictures.

Leland Carmany:

No. No.

Tom Swope:

Yeah. Did you keep much of a journal at all when you were over there, keeping track, a little handwritten journal or anything?

Leland Carmany:

The only thing I got -- and then I quit after a while.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

I got -- I got tired.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

I can give ya some of this there, tell you what -- part of what was going on. This is Italy. January 1st. I don't know what -- I don't know what date this was. I don't have it marked. But the first day of -- oh. The first day of the new year, 1944. That -- well, that solves that. It was so I'd been in over a year by then. Had a few drinks. Invited -- of course, I had a snort and that. Had a -- had a few drinks.

Leland Carmany:

Lillian, you're not supposed to listen to this.

Lillian Carmany:

Oh, okay.

Leland Carmany:

Keep -- put cotton in your ears.

Leland Carmany:

[Mr. Carmany continuing] Had a few drinks. Invited to the first sergeant's room. While there, fight -- fights broke out between he and the -- and another high noncom. One of the -- one of them was drunk and insane. He grabbed -- he grabbed up a -- I remember that. Oh, I was scared shitless. Pardon me.

Tom Swope:

That's okay.

Leland Carmany:

He grabbed -- grabbed up a rifle and started shooting -- in this room, it was. Fired three shots. When the -- the first one was fired, I took off at top speed. No one was -- no -- no one was hurt, but this jealous guy is in for a rough time. Was put on -- put under arrest, under guard duty, and waiting action. All this is due to being penned up for some -- so long. Yeah, that was -- that scared the hell out of me. You know, everybody was running every which way, and he was firing these shots. And they -- what happened to him, he got -- he got court-mar -- or he got discharged. In other words, he blew his mind. I mean, he -- and they -- I don't know whether they put him -- took him home and -- I don't know what they did with him after that.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

So -- today, got the story -- got the story. This is the story, I guess. He got away from the fellows and was hiding in his shop with three loaded guns. The first sergeant went down and tangled with -- with him, taking away the guns. Today, they sent -- sent in a request -- request to bust him to a private. He was a T sergeant. No one likes -- likes him. And there is a few others that should be broke. A court-martial is being prepared, and what he will get, I don't know. No one was hurt, luckily, and we all -- we are all back of the first sergeant -- or we're all backing the first sergeant.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

That's what it means. And the next day is, nothing of importance happened today. I just just an ordinary workday. They are working on the court-martial but are taking it each -- taking it on each -- I don't know what -- taking it easy on him. They are getting him on two charges, drunkenness and firing a weapon. Also heard they are breaking two others -- other fellas. It's about time some of these worst three grades are taken down. Naturally -- do you want more?

Tom Swope:

Sure. Sure.

Leland Carmany:

Okay. This is January 4th. Went to a -- a show tonight for the first time in months, saw "Coney Island," with Betty Grable. I don't think you'll remember that, would you?

Tom Swope:

I remember Betty Grable. I think I've seen that movie, yes.

Leland Carmany:

The theater is very modernistic. Had -- had an alert this afternoon and again this evening. The mess -- the mess about -- about New Year's has caused two men to be broke and the other waiting for a court-martial. This is the 5th: Had several alerts today but 25 nothing else. Haven't seen an air raid for two months now. There have been strong rumors around of late that the Fifth Army is going to England and make -- make an invasion from there. Have a $10 bet that we go to England before we go home, and think I have a good chance of winning. Eighth: Went to the show. "This is the Army" -- did you see that? --

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

-- was playing -- was playing -- playing. Good, but not as I expected. But a good build-up for the Army. Had an alert today. Don't know what was up. We now have eight men in the hospital. Would say about -- would say about -- have this -- company has been in the -- has been in the hospital at one time or another. I don't know what -- that don't make sense. Maybe they had drank too many. Been in the hospital at one time. I don't know how many -- or another. We have had as many as 13 in at once. Probably a disease. I mean, they get -- you know.

Tom Swope:

Yeah.

Leland Carmany:

We opened our day room tonight. It's really nice. Built two tables, Ping-Pong table, chairs. Have a radio and lots of magazines. For the opening, we had a coffee and cake. Good. That's wonderful. Had a nice time. There has been a hospital visit -- hospital unit looking at our barracks, which would make a perfect site for hospital. Don't imagine we will be here long. We -- long in this spot, as hospitals have a first priority on everything, which is as it should be. The rumor still has it that we are moving out. Also, there are signs of a big move, as units are now going to staging areas, which is a sign of something going to happen. The city of Naples is off limits to soldiers because of the types -- hepatitis epidermic -- epidemic and also because of syphilis and other diseases. None -- none of our -- not out of -- what is -- I don't know what that is. Nine of every ten girls -- nine of every ten girls has a disease. Now, I don't know that, see, because -- that's the rumor. Are you still wanting me to go on?

Tom Swope:

Sure. Yeah. Exactly. I just want to make sure I --

Leland Carmany:

Since nothing has happened today, will catch up on something else. The different battalions we were attached to while overseas or higher headquarters: 42nd Ordnance Battalion, 43rd Ordnance Battalion, 2630 Ordnance Battalion, 87 Ordnance Battalion, and 188th Ordnance Battalion --

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

-- we were attached to. As usual, the 93rd is definitely moving. A hospital wants this location, and so we must move. Don't know whether it will be buildings or not, but think it will be tents for us again -- tents for us again. Sure will hate to leave here. We have all the comforts of life here. Started treatment -- started treatment on my ear today. Must -- must go every other day. Yeah, had the -- it has been running of late and am a little afraid in this climate. Today, we moved and had -- and is -- had a met -- and it is a mess. Had our area picked out, building, and when we got -- get over there -- here, the Air Corps is in it and they know -- they knew nothing about us moving in. So there we were. Couldn't -- couldn't move in or out. So we pitched tents for the night until we were -- we could find another place -- another place. The Air Corps has everything leased and we can't find a thing.

Leland Carmany:

[Mr. Carmany continuing] Continue?

Tom Swope:

Yes, continue.

Leland Carmany:

We still are here, right, waiting. Finally, the captain came around and told us to pack up, so we -- we -- we tore down the tent and packed up and took off for the new area. When we got over there, along comes one of our -- our lieutenants and tells us to go back. That figures. The area was already taken. So we came back. We put up the tents again and unpacked. We are only allowed to camp within a certain point, so we don't have much choice. The Air Corps has all the buildings and land around here, so that's why the mess. Finally found an area, and what a place. Out in the middle of an open field. A big stadium on one side and a -- and mountains on the other and colder than hell. We are camped on the outskirts of Caserta. In Caserta -- in Caserta is the king's palace, a mammoth castle. Have been there many times. Went there for treatment on my ear. Have given up hope of them helping me. All they do is look at it and give me pills. Yesterday, they called for 20 volunteers for blood donations. Thought I would do my bit. So they took us up near the front line to one of the hospitals who receives the wounded. They are in -- in -- they are in bad need for blood. So they extracted a pint of my blood. Some of the fellas stayed there to give the blood -- blood as they come in. One of the boys gave his blood to a boy who had both legs shot off. In fact, they gave him their -- three quarts of blood. Boy, that was terrible. I -- I gave blood right beside a guy -- they put me right beside a guy that was I don't know what he -- was the matter with him. Transferred my blood right over to his.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

Boy, that was bad. Felt pretty lousy today and didn't have much ambition. It's surprising how a pint of blood weakens you. My heart has been pumping all day. Maybe they gave they took more than they should have.

Tom Swope:

Sounds like it.

Leland Carmany:

I wouldn't know the difference. They -- they will not take anyone who has had Malaria within the last six months. Everyone here is waiting anxiously for the big invasion to start. The quicker, the better. Received my ribbon for the European Theater of War and also my battle star for the Sicilian Campaign. Guess all -- guess all the Nazis -- Nazi planes are finished over here. Haven't seen any for so long. We heard today of a landing south of Rome, which is swell news. Maybe we will soon be heading for Rome. Hope so. The first case of gonorrhea broke out in the company -- wasn't me -- today. We have been damn lucky -- damn lucky. Next -- next of -- I don't know what that word is. I can't remem -- of every ten women, nine have a disease. To sure -- sure is terrible. Lots -- lots of them have sores on their legs as big as half dollars. I don't know about that. I didn't pay any attention. Since we have been overseas, our company commanding officer has broken about ten men to privates. We have had one court-martial still from the New Year's Eve and we have two more on the fire. Another air raid in Naples. Could -- could hear the Ack Ack and the siren went off here. Am glad we are -- we are all not located in Naples. Things are pretty quiet with this company, and figure we are about ready for another move. Entered -- entered hospital today for treatment on my ear. They didn't say one way or another about an operation. Still in the hospital. Have seen some awful sights since I have been here, fellas with eyes shot out, limbs missing. It's terrible. Still in the hospital. Still in on January 3rd -- 31st, still in the hospital. Oh, it was -- oh, that was bad news. Hoping to get out tomorrow. That was February 1st. The first sergeant came after me this morning. Sure was glad to be out again. Had an alert last night. Must have been air raid in Naples. Another case of one of our great officers: A -- a gun crew was ordered to elevate their gun to a certain degree by an officer. They did this and found the barrel to be pointed directly at a large tree almost in front of the barrel. They were ordered to fire. They hesitated, knowing they would all get killed if they did. They were ordered to fire again; they did so, and all the gun crew was killed except one man and the officer. How do you like that? February 5th: Went to the show last night and seen "A Lady Takes a Chance." Nothing else happened yesterday. One of our staff sergeants tried to turn -- turn in his stripes. We have been doing work with -- with no connection with ordnance, like building houses or trailer -- house trailers for -- for majors and colonels. But when they ask him to make -- make -- make napkins -- napkin rings -- napkin rings, it was too much for him and can't -- can't blame him one bit. He told the cap -- our captain that he did not come over here to do things like that. He's -- he still has his stripes. That is one of the main reasons that this war is not being won so readily. Probably.

Tom Swope:

I guess.

Leland Carmany:

To give you an example of some of the officers who are supposed to lead us, the officers make mistakes and the enlisted mens pay -- pay with their lives. A colonel in Sicily led a battalion of half -- halftracks against German tanks, and nearly all the men were wiped out. Any -- any man with sense would know better. I don't know.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

I think I stopped here. I don't know. I quit -- oh, no, there's one more.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

My personal opinion of this -- of the officers of this army is at the point of disgust. Can't put it all down on this page. Have heard lots of stories directly from the front where because an officer would not listen to an enlisted man' view -- viewpoint, many were killed. An officer, because he has the authority of -- of one bar or more, will not admit he is wrong. One officer bucking against the other. That is why our front -- our front here in Italy is not going well. Have heard that many -- have heard that many a time. The fellow that I was court mar -- that was -- the fella that was court-martialled about the first of January who was broken from a T sergeant to a private and fined $40 is again a T sergeant. The court-martial bounced back from Fifth Army, for reasons not known. He can be retried, however, and think he will. If he can't -- if he isn't, he's -- there will be no justice for the lower grades. I think that's about it. Yeah.

Tom Swope:

That's very --

Leland Carmany:

Well, when that -- here bit -- the doc -- I didn't write that all down. I quit. I got tired. The doctor wanted to send me home. And at that time, the Battle of the Bulge was going on and they were depleting the depos, replacement depos, and I knew that. The first sergeant told me that.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

And he says, "I'll" -- he -- he told me -- says, "I'll send you home and you'll -- you can have an operation on your ear." I says -- I looked at him. I says, "I don't think I want to go home because I'll get stuck in the replacement depo, and the first thing I know, I'll be on the front lines."

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

He didn't say anything, and so the -- he says, "Well, you know if -- if they have a gas attack here, you're gonna die. You're gonna -- because that's going straight into your ear, and it's gonna affect your brain." He says, "You're -- you're gonna -- you won't make it." And so I said, "Well, I'll take my chances." And that's what I did. So, you know, it -- and the funny part about it was, when we were -- I don't remember whether we were at home at that time or not. I don't -- we might have been. They were putting us all through a big, long tent for gas, and you're supposed to identify the gas that was going through.

Tom Swope:

Right.

Leland Carmany:

And I was going through with this -- my ear was open. Now, I didn't know it, you know. So I -- I came out all right, I guess, unless -- my brain's kind of fuzzy now. But that's -- so I never -- I didn't -- didn't go home.

Tom Swope:

Do you remember anything particular about any buddies from that -- that time?

Leland Carmany:

Oh, yeah. I had a good buddy, a good buddy. I can't get it off.

Tom Swope:

Can't get it off? That's all right.

Leland Carmany:

Well, I'll get it off.

Tom Swope:

There you go.

Leland Carmany:

He made this for me. It was -- made from a German -- piece of German plane. Put all of the countries on there. You can read 'em.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh. Wow.

Leland Carmany:

He did that all -- he did that himself. He was handy. He made a lot of things, yeah. So that's my best buddy, yeah. We got drunk together. We went to dances together. Yeah, he was -- he was gret.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh. He made it back okay?

Leland Carmany:

Yeah, he made it back okay. He just died a couple of years ago and I -- yeah.

Tom Swope:

You mentioned movies a couple of times. What other kind of entertainment did you have?

Leland Carmany:

Well, they had refugees there that we went to dances to.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

And my buddy and I, we went to those quite a bit. The funny part of it is, we took a -- we had a jeep. We -- I signed out a jeep, see, to -- you know, I signed it out. We went to -- to this dance, did our dance, and then we -- I don't know, midnight. Went to come home, no jeep. So we hitchhiked a ride with somebody else, you know. And so the next morning, I didn't -- you know, you're supposed to turn it in, you know. Well, I couldn't turn it in, so -- I don't know whether he -- I was called in -- I think I was called in. I'm not sure. I was called in or I went in -- went in to the -- where the jeeps were, and I told the guy -- I says, "Our jeep's been stoled -- was stole last night." So, of course, he had to report it to the captain. So first thing you know, captain calls me. It was I and him. And, "What happened last night?" Said, "Well, I don't know. Somebody swiped the jeep." He says, "You know, we can replace that jeep or we can make you pay for it by keeping you in the service." And here I was standing there ready to -- you know. And he let me stand there for a while, and I thought, "Oh, what the hell's gonna happen now?" you know. He says, "Well, we got some jeeps here that need repair and they're -- we'll fix one up and we'll scratch the serial number off and we'll -- we'll replace it with ser -- your serial number", he says, "but," he says, "you know, you -- you'd have to -- you'd be in the service to pay for this jeep if it wasn't -- if I didn't do that." I says, "Well, I thank you for that." And he said, "Well, that's all right. You're dis -- dismissed." And he -- he did that for me.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

Otherwise, I'd probably still be in, maybe. Yeah.

Tom Swope:

Any trouble adapting to life, civilian life after the war?

Leland Carmany:

I was a little bit -- I was edgy because I liked -- I liked the camping life.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

I was always -- I always liked the outdoors and I liked -- I liked camping.

Tom Swope:

Uh-huh.

Leland Carmany:

So the service didn't hurt me one bit, as far as, you know, making it for myself, as far as camping and stuff, because I liked it. But other than that, I was kind of depressed when I -- I didn't have a -- I just felt kind of tied down and -- you know, after being loose for so long, for three years, why, I -- I had a little bit of problem adjusting. I swore a hell of a lot when I got home.

Tom Swope:

Being around the guys for so --

Leland Carmany:

I got told about that every time I turned around.

Tom Swope:

If you could, what would be your most vivid wartime memory? Perhaps you've already shared that.

Leland Carmany:

Dachau.

Tom Swope:

That's what I thought. Right.

Leland Carmany:

That -- that I just can't forget it. Can't forget that, no. Let's see. Anything else? Being in the hospital and seeing -- seeing these guys come in, you know, legs off, arms off. You know, that -- that's something, too. Yeah, those two things probably is worst. Of course, the German that came down the middle of the road, that didn't -- that -- that wasn't too bad.