Received: from CJ52269-A (cj52269-a.alex1.va.home.com [24.5.84.81]) by moon.jic.com (8.8.8/) with SMTP id TAA19626 for ; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 19:52:09 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Russ Smith" To: Subject: RE: Automated .US Registration Site Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 20:00:05 -0400 Message-ID: <000301beb078$b2f0eb50$51540518@CJ52269-A.alex1.va.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3758A49D.F4AB8E4D@earthlink.net> In reality, these rules are not always followed and ISI does not have resources to verify all the stuff. Note that Washington, DC is not delegated so domains like consumer.washington.dc.us (which I registered) are free since they are registered via ISI. You can use the public DNS to do the DNS (soa.granitecanyon.com) and you could use free redirection services like ml.org to point it to a free web page service like xoom or geocities. The response wouldn't be great and there would be outages but it would be totally free. If you spent something like a $50 setup and $20/month you could run a site from a hosting service which would be sufficient for business or individual wanting a good response. 3 of my domains were free consumer.washington.dc.us (via ISI), alcatraz.san-francisco.ca.us (via delegated ISP), and times-square.new-york.ny.us (delegated ISP). santa.north-pole.ak.us cost me $40 setup and $30/year. However, I am the only domain name in the North Pole, Alaska domain so I can't really complain about the price above the rules. The web site of the ISP clearly stated the price on their site. In another case for atlantic-city.nj.us the ISP sent me a bill of about $30-$40/yr only after I registered the domain (it took several weeks for them to respond at all) so I cancelled it and I got atlantic-city.org via Internic. Even though the alcatraz domain was free I also registered sanfran.net because the domain is so hard to type without making an error. One thing I would consider is bidding out the name.city.state.us space with the condition that free (or low cost) domains are provided to individuals. The service could set up a robust DNS and possibly offer e-mail. A procurement could be done to solicit proposals to do this where the Postal Service could compete. A major factor would be the "deal" given to consumers while the company could offer other premium services to those that want to spend more. Many web hosting services have this business model (such as www.register.com) but the user must pay the $70 Internic fee. I also think there should be a reduced priced TLD (such as .nom) where individuals could register for something like $10-$15/year but that is another issue. Russ smith http://consumer.net http://domainia.org >The Overview clearly states that any charge should cover only reasonable expenses and and gives the expectation that charges should be minimal (http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/usdnr/usdom-overview.html#Cost). I read that as suggesting that $10/year is not unreasonable. I also recall an ISI representative at the NTIA meeting saying that there had been service providers that had been removed for gouging on registrations. If I'm understanding you correctly, you seem to think that a person providing free .us domain name service is bound to be different from a person charging for it, and you prefer the free provider "type." But isn't it just as likely that that type would be willing to provide the service still as a 'labor of love' if they could recoup some of the necessary expenses? I suppose it's possible that a home pc and dial-up connection is sufficient, but if I could get a new terminal and maybe a dedicated line out of it, I might consider it myself. 8-) Just wondering, Charlie Franz Not presuming to speak for NTIA but happily employed there as a policy analyst. . Received: from iciiu.org (slip-ppp-1-190.perfekt.net [205.230.176.190]) by perfekt.perfekt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA26172; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 20:56:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <375B1760.118AA822@iciiu.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 20:50:40 -0400 From: Michael Sondow X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [fr] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: russ@moon.jic.com, dot-US list Subject: Re: Automated .US Registration Site References: <000301beb078$b2f0eb50$51540518@CJ52269-A.alex1.va.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by perfekt.perfekt.net id UAA26172 Russ Smith a =E9crit: > 3 of my domains were free consumer.washington.dc.us (via ISI), > alcatraz.san-francisco.ca.us (via delegated ISP), and > times-square.new-york.ny.us (delegated ISP). > In > another case for atlantic-city.nj.us Alcatraz.san-francisco.ca.us and atlantic-city.nj.us are geographical location subdomains, as the .US domain space is defined in RFC 1480, and as such should only be delegated to a network that will sub-allocate domain names within them. You only got these domains because the delegator - ISI or someone else - is sloppy and indifferent, just like Jon Postel was, and isn't delegating domains in .US according to the rules. . Received: from CJ52269-A (cj52269-a.alex1.va.home.com [24.5.84.81]) by moon.jic.com (8.8.8/) with SMTP id VAA23469 for ; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 21:28:30 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Russ Smith" To: "dot-US list" Subject: RE: Automated .US Registration Site Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 21:36:27 -0400 Message-ID: <000401beb086$2907b5f0$51540518@CJ52269-A.alex1.va.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <375B1760.118AA822@iciiu.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by moon.jic.com id VAA23469 Third level domains such as san-francisco..ca.us and atlantic-city.nj.us = are the domains that are be delegated to networks that will subdeligate domai= n names (see page 25 of the RFC). That is what happened. Both were delega= ted to ISP's that provided me with domain names such as alcatraz.san-francisco.ca.us. For the Atlantic City domain I asked for boardwalk... or beach... when they told me about the fee. Maybe you coul= d argue that Alcatraz should be a locality but that is not the way the rule= s are written now. I read through all the rules and contacted ISI before I did any of this. I checked first to see if I had to actually be in a locality (or have som= e presence) to get a domain in a specific locality. I could not find it addressed in the RFC or the ISI web site so I called them and they told m= e I did not (much to my surprise). So I registered them. I set up the Alcat= raz domain with Alcatraz information but there is nothing that requires me to= do so. actually, if someone wanted a domain like xxxx.alcatraz.san-francisco.ca.us I would set it up for them free as it would only take a minute but I never even considered that anyone would wa= nt such a beast for a domain name. The only good thing about the Alcatraz domain is that it shows up well in the search engines. I set up the Sant= a domain with an e-mail autoresponder around Christmas. I point the consum= er site to Consumer.net. I haven't set up the times-square domain. Russ Smith http://consumer.net http://domainia.org -----Original Message----- From: Michael Sondow [mailto:msondow@iciiu.org] Sent: Sunday, June 06, 1999 8:51 PM To: russ@moon.jic.com; dot-US list Subject: Re: Automated .US Registration Site Russ Smith a =E9crit: > 3 of my domains were free consumer.washington.dc.us (via ISI), > alcatraz.san-francisco.ca.us (via delegated ISP), and > times-square.new-york.ny.us (delegated ISP). > In > another case for atlantic-city.nj.us Alcatraz.san-francisco.ca.us and atlantic-city.nj.us are geographical location subdomains, as the .US domain space is defined in RFC 1480, and as such should only be delegated to a network that will sub-allocate domain names within them. You only got these domains because the delegator - ISI or someone else - is sloppy and indifferent, just like Jon Postel was, and isn't delegating domains in .US according to the rules. . Received: from iciiu.org (slip-ppp-1-216.perfekt.net [205.230.176.216]) by perfekt.perfekt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA26943 for ; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 22:17:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <375B2A68.D8CF766F@iciiu.org> Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 22:11:52 -0400 From: Michael Sondow X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [fr] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "US reorg. list" Subject: Re: Automated .US Registration Site Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by perfekt.perfekt.net id WAA26943 uss Smith a =E9crit: >=20 > For the Atlantic City domain I asked for > boardwalk... or beach... when they told me about the fee. Maybe you co= uld > argue that Alcatraz should be a locality but that is not the way the ru= les > are written now. Yes, I believe it is. All geograp[hical designations are network subdomains, according to the basic definition of .US sub-domain allocation. No one is supposed to get a geographical name as a private domain name. > I read through all the rules and contacted ISI before I > did any of this. ISI hasn't been administering .us properly, which is why it's got to be reorganized. Postel himself didn't seem to want anything to do with it, and gave the delegations to the first comer. After Postel, it's been even worse. > I checked first to see if I had to actually be in a locality (or have s= ome > presence) to get a domain in a specific locality. I could not find it > addressed in the RFC or the ISI web site so I called them and they told= me I > did not (much to my surprise). Postel apparently decided that you didn't have to have an address in the locality to register within it. But you still weren't supposed to get the name of the locality as a private delegation. > actually, if someone wanted a domain like > xxxx.alcatraz.san-francisco.ca.us I would set it up for them free as it > would only take a minute but I never even considered that anyone would = want > such a beast for a domain name. Why not? It's a place, isn't it? And as I recall, at least in the 'seventies, there was some sort of reconversion of the old prison underway. There's all the reason in the world to expect that someday someone will want a domain name on Alcatraz island. The atlantic-city.nj.us delegation is much more serious. That's a total abrogation of .us policy to delegate that for other than network use by the locality. How can you as an individual have a city delegation, unless you're doing DNS for the residents? This is just another hash-up caused by the confused and indifferent attitude of Postel and ISI. . Received: from CJ52269-A ([24.5.84.81]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990607033256.ZYNA9782.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@CJ52269-A> for ; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 20:32:56 -0700 Reply-To: From: "domainiac" To: "US reorg. list" Subject: RE: Automated .US Registration Site Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 23:36:01 -0400 Message-ID: <000501beb096$dd58cd40$51540518@CJ52269-A.alex1.va.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <375B2A68.D8CF766F@iciiu.org> People just don't want these long names. I think they would rather have new TLD's rather than the long names. I heard talks of putting luxury condos on the Island. atlamtic-city.nj.us is delegated to an ISP in NJ who issues domain. I was trying to register beach.atlantic-city.nj.us. Russ Smith >Why not? It's a place, isn't it? And as I recall, at least in the 'seventies, there was some sort of reconversion of the old prison underway. There's all the reason in the world to expect that someday someone will want a domain name on Alcatraz island. >The atlantic-city.nj.us delegation is much more serious. That's a total abrogation of .us policy to delegate that for other than network use by the locality. How can you as an individual have a city delegation, unless you're doing DNS for the residents? This is just another hash-up caused by the confused and indifferent attitude of Postel and ISI. .