If there are rough waters and many people going under, and I put a buoy out there that only some can grasp... should I pull it back out because not everyone is saved?  

On the other hand, just 'cause I stuck a buoy out there, do I then say "well, we've GOT a program, if it doesn't really work, that's not OUR problem, is it?" or shoudl I be thinking of ways to calm those stormy waters or build a bridge over & around them? 

Oh, but we're supposed to be asking for your idea...Oh, prithee, pray tell, let not your minions dangle!  We wallow and mumble, confused and distraught, awaiting ;)  


Susan Jones
Academic Development Specialist
Academic Development Center
Parkland College
Champaign, IL  61821
sujones at parkland.edu
Webmastress,
http://www.resourceroom.net
http://bicyclecu.blogspot.com



>>> "Glenn Young" <gyoungxlt at roadrunner.com> 3/24/2008 12:24 PM >>>

Well at least I started some interesting discussion

 

And I must add that when we talk "on average" . what one must do . dear I
say it . is not compare their local or even state programs per say . but to
look at  the national aggravate data ..  We really can not tell without a
great deal of work. where our state or local program fits along the "bell
curve" of all ABE students or all ABE programs . So, while people respond to
the data I present . based on their own programs or states it becomes a bit
more problematic in how to have the discussion if they stand only on their
local data . and want to have a dispute over a percentage or two . we need
to look at the issues I am raising in a bit more of global perspective. 

 

And the key point that has been raised so far . that we can or can not
measure success based on if students meet their goals . well that is the
crux of my point . If we don't meet the goals of the students . what is our
purpose?  

 

My point on this is that it does not really matter if we think the goals are
unrealistic or not . it is their goals and they have a reason for  having
these goals . and a reason often imposed upon them by other factors than the
ABE system, or wishful thinking  . such as welfare clients being told they
have 6 months to get a GED or they can't stay on welfare . unrealistic or
not . the pressures upon them are real and therefore their goals are real to
them . Also, if a person wants to get into an internship with a labor union
or a training program in the food industry etc . and they may require a GED
. the student's goal of getting the GED is an economic necessity, a great
needed item . often the key to economic success for that student . and not
something they can wait 3-5 years to obtain.

 

So with these pressure, which are very real and very impacting on their
lives . the ABE program says the goal is unrealistic . but that really does
not matter to the person coming in, the customer . the GED is what they need
and the GED is what is their goal .saying or inferring that the goal can not
be met or met in a timely fashion is a major reason why they customer will
leave, and we failed them.  

 

Currently the ABE system offers an approach that provides a path to the GED
on average that will take 3-5 years (that means for some its will be a lot
faster, and for other much, much longer, if at all . ) and  then 

 

We measure our success with a great deal of  "selection bias" , which makes
it appear that our programs do better then they do . (in this case the
selection is that those who stay often only need a limited amount of help
and those who don't stay are the ones who need a lot more help . and
therefore . in the short run it appears out programs work for many of those
who stay . but the selection bias is very great and we can not really say
that the programs, on average, really work well for the majority of those in
need .only for whom the current model fits and then only some of them.)

 

My point is that we should not be saying . the goal is unrealistic.  That
does not help the client.  We need to be asking . how can this client's goal
be reached? To meet her/his needs . to address to their crisis ..And if we
consistently can not meet the goal . then is it ABE that needs to be
changing, not limiting or changing the goals of the customers . Can we
figure out a way to not say we can't meet these much needed goals . but to
be asking how can we "modernize" to meet the goals? ..   And to steal a much
used phrase of this political season . yes we can! 

 

So what is the change?   For the person who asked about Orton Gillingham,
while a far more valid approach to reading for adults then the methods
mostly used  . that is not a solution for the short time . it still takes
years to gain the skills .often taking hundreds of hours that builds on the
intensity of each session (something most adults do not have the time to do,
in a concentrated time fashion.) . and also the key problem in passing the
GED is not just reading skills but knowledge . and so we need a solution
that focuses gaining the knowledge to pass the GED.)  

 

Therefore . again . I am asking . is there a different approach, a different
paradigm in which we can meet the needs of the greater amount of customers?
The ones who appear to have such "unrealistic" but really needed goals. Not
meeting the needs of the teachers in thinking they are helping by increasing
the literacy skills to some degree, but a different way of helping out
customers meet their needs in reaching the much needed goal of getting the
GED, or keeping that job, or getting a new job or staying on welfare till
they can work, or getting into the apprenticeship program, or retraining to
fit the new economy  . etc. you know, .  what the customers needs.

 . 

 

So I do say yes . and it is not that more costly . and considering cost
benefit analysis . it is far cheaper .. Then the current models, and far
more productive for the customer . And when I give the solution . I can hear
all the objections now . because it is really so customer focused (and
teachers are not the customers of ABE) but I just want the chance to prove
it .   And if we can just get a state or two to field test the idea . I can
prove it too . (unfortunately the big grant foundation I was after, and had
high hopes for,  just turned us down ..) anyone got a little funding to
create a new world or opportunities?

 

Oh yes . the solution . like a good cliffhanger  . details later . after
more response.  

 

Glenn Young

CSLD

530 Auburn Ave

Buffalo NY 14222

Cell 703-864-3755

Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

website: glennyoungcsld.com

  _____  

From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov 
[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Bruce C
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:00 AM
To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List
Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1801] Re: Controversial again

 

Dear List,

I could write forever about this, but I'll try to be succint:

 

First of all, adult literacy programs are working with a very challenging
population. We work with people who--for a variety of largely unresearched
reasons--did not learn to read in the ways that most people were able to
learn. It is unrealistic to expect that people who have struggled all their
lives to learn how to read would all suddenly have an easy time of learning.


 

Also, what are we talking about when we talk about students achieving their
ABE goals? Most people come to my program saying they want their GED. Many
take years to get that. Some don't ever get a GED, but they improve their
literacy levels. What is the impact on income, civic involvement, children's
literacy levels if someone's reading level goes up? We don't know,  but I
would sure like to find out. 

 

Finally, why is it considered a problem if 20% drop out in the first few
hours? 80% stay and 20% decide they are not ready to make the commitment
now. It's like joining a gym. It's easy to sign up, but hard to work out
three times a week. Also, how many of those 20% come back later when the
time is right?

 

from Bruce Carmel

Glenn Young <gyoungxlt at roadrunner.com> wrote:

OK David ... but that's just your nature

Are there others?

Glenn Young
CSLD
530 Auburn Ave
Buffalo NY 14222
Cell 703-864-3755
Phone/Fax 716-882-2842
website: glennyoungcsld.com

-----Original Message-----
From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov 
[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of David J. Rosen
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 8:46 AM
To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List
Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1796] Controversial again

Glenn,

On Mar 23, 2008, at 10:20 PM, Glenn Young wrote:


> Well . before I offer arguments on how to change this . I'd like to 

> see if this stimulates conversation.


I'm intrigued. Continue.

David J. Rosen
djrosen at comcast.net 

On Mar 23, 2008, at 10:20 PM, Glenn Young wrote:

> OK . I've been urged to come back in and raise a few 

> "controversial" points

>

>

>

> So . let me start by asking some questions - Leading to the 

> conclusion --- that we need to comprehensive reform of the ABE 

> system . and that reform needs to focus on the extensive use of the 

> new technologies that are generally available to all (who can 

> afford them) . and these questions are:

>

>

>

> On average . how long does it take for a person entering ABE 

> programs to reach their goals, if they stay in the program long 

> enough to reach their goals?

>

>

>

> On average . how many persons entering ABE programs "drop out" 

> before reaching their goals?

>

>

>

> And again, on average, how many "efforts" (starting and then 

> dropping out and then starting again) does it take for an ABE 

> student to reach their goals?

>

>

>

> The answer to these questions will of course vary from location to 

> location (great teachers, more "modern" approaches, less "impacted" 

> students .

>

>

>

> Also the current answers will change quite a bit as the 

> demographics of the ABE population changes as more of the impacts 

> of NCLB are felt in the ABE programs (which we have seen quite a 

> bit of change in the demographics especially in the South, where 

> ABE has become the standard "placement" for 10th graders who do not 

> "test well" and high school drop out rates have soared in the past 

> 7 years .

>

>

>

> OK . given all of that . anyone want to guess at what the "current 

> numbers seem to be?

>

>

>

> So should I just give them?

>

>

>

> Well . I will give the best information I have . based on the US 

> DEPT of ED reports based on their National Reporting System . which 

> really does not cover these points very well . but we can see what 

> we can see ..

>

>

>

> On average . it currently takes some 3-5 years before a person 

> reaches their goals in ABE programs

>

> On average . in actuality very few persons stay 3-5 years and so 

> less then 10% actually reach their goals . at least 20% of people 

> drop out of programs within the first then hours of service .

>

> On average - people try something like 3 times before dropping out 

> for good.

>

>

>

> So . it appears on average the ABE system fails almost all it 

> serves and fails them dramatically

>

>

>

> So . how do we change this?

>

>

>

> Well . before I offer arguments on how to change this . I'd like to 

> see if this stimulates conversation.

>

>

>

> Thank

>

>

>

>

>

> Glenn Young

>

> CSLD

>

> 530 Auburn Ave

>

> Buffalo NY 14222

>

> Cell 703-864-3755

>

> Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

>

> website: glennyoungcsld.com

----------------------------------------------------
National Institute for Literacy
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To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to
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Email delivered to gyoungxlt at roadrunner.com 

----------------------------------------------------
National Institute for Literacy
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