1 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR 2 BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT 3 CALIFORNIA DESERT DISTRICT ADVISORY COUNCIL 4 5 6 7 8 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 9 10 11 12 LOCATION: HERITAGE INN & SUITES 2050 N. Norma 13 Ridgecrest, California 93555 14 DATE AND TIME: Saturday, November 15, 2008 15 8 a.m. to 3:57 p.m. 16 REPORTED BY: JUDITH W. GILLESPIE, CSR, RPR 17 (No. 3710) 18 JOB NO.: 67620JG 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 MEMBERS PRESENT: REPRESENTING 3 CHAIRMAN DON MABEN Elected Official 4 GEARY HUND National/Regional 5 Environmental Protection 6 RANDY BANIS Public-at-Large 7 JAMES FITZPATRICK Public-at-Large 8 MEG GROSSGLASS Public-at-Large 9 THOMAS ACUNA Transportation/Rights of Way 10 DINAH O. SHUMWAY Non-Renewable Resources 11 RICHARD HOLIDAY Recreation 12 RON SCHILLER Recreation 13 RICHARD RUDNICK Renewable Resources 14 PATRICK LLOYD GUNN Wildlife 15 STAFF PRESENT: 16 DIRECTOR STEVE BORCHARD, California Desert District 17 JACK HAMBY, Associate District Manager, CDD STEVE RAZO, Deputy District Mgr, Outreach, CDD 18 DAVID BRIERY, Public Affairs Specialist, CDD ALAN STEIN, Deputy District Manager, Resources, CDD 19 GREG MILLER, Alternate Energy Program Manager, CDD ROB WAIWOOD, Geologist, CDD 20 SUE ROCHA, Deputy Fire Management Officer, CDD JENNIFER WOHLGEMUTH, Staff Assistant, CDD 21 WILLIAM (MICKEY) QUILLMAN, Barstow Field Office Resources Chief 22 MICHAEL AHRENS, Needles Field Office Acting Manager HECTOR VILLALOBOS, Ridgecrest Field Office Manager 23 VICKI WOOD, El Centro Field Office Manager JOHN KALISH, Palm Springs Field Office Manager 24 TERRY ALLEN, Law Enforcement Ranger DANIEL STEWARD, Resources Chief 25 2 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 I-N-D-E-X ITEM PAGE 2 Welcome/Pledge of Allegiance (Chair) 4 Introductions 4 3 Twentynine Palms Land Withdrawal Update 13 4 (William Mickey Quillman) 5 Summary of Field Tour 31 6 Approve July 25 Meeting Transcripts 39 Review Agenda 39 7 Public Comment For Items Not on Agenda 40 8 9 State Director's Report (Kristin Hoggan) 53 District Manager's Report (Steve Borchard) 74 10 Morning Break 99 11 Council Reports/Council Renewable Letter (DAC) 99 12 Field Office Summary Reports 131 13 Council Questions to Written Reports 14 Lunch Break 152 15 Current Status of Aggregate Mining in CDD 156 (Rob Waiwood) 16 Renewable Energy Program Update (Miller) 181 17 Firewood & Off-Highway Vehicle Noise Issues 205 18 (Terry Allen) 19 Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation Area Trash 210 (Daniel Steward) 20 Afternoon Break 216 21 Fire Planning Update (Sue Rocha) 216 22 Public Comments 230 23 Wrap-Up and Summary (Chair) 248 24 Selection of Next Meeting Location and Agenda 25 Adjournment 256 3 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 Ridgecrest, CA Saturday, November 15, 2008 2 3 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 4 5 6 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Welcome to the DAC 7 meeting. On behalf of my colleague Tom Davis, I want 8 to welcome you to Ridgecrest and Eastern Kern County. 9 We will begin today's meeting with a pledge led by 10 Mr. Ron Schiller. 11 MEMBER SCHILLER: No mikes today? 12 CHAIRMAN MABEN: You have to speak up. 13 I know you have a great personality. 14 (Pledge of Allegiance.) 15 MEMBER SCHILLER: I will have to really 16 try. My name is Ron Schiller. I have been on the DAC 17 now for six years. This happens to be the end of my 18 appointment in December the 31st of this year. This 19 will probably be my last meeting. I live here in 20 Ridgecrest, and I have been very active in multiple 21 use and access issues for quite a number of years. 22 Most of the folks around here know me. That's pretty 23 much it. 24 MEMBER GUNN: I'm Lloyd Gunn. This is 25 my first meeting with the Desert Advisory Council. 4 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 I'm a member of the Society For Conservation of 2 Bighorn Sheep. But I also have been doing volunteer 3 work with BLM for many years. I'm out in the desert 4 quite a bit. And I'm honored to be part of the Desert 5 Advisory Council. 6 MEMBER HUND: Hi. I'm Geary Hund, and I 7 represent conservation groups on the DAC. I'm about 8 midway through my three-year term. It's been really a 9 great experience thus far, including yesterday's field 10 trip and barbecue afterwards. I work for a state 11 agency called the Coachella Valley Mountains 12 Conservancy. We primarily acquire land in the 13 Coachella Valley and surrounding areas for 14 conservation. And I also do volunteer work for my 15 former employer, the Wilderness Society, as an 16 advocate for federal legislation, including wilderness 17 preservation. 18 MEMBER SHUMWAY: I'm a geologist, 19 economic geology. Terramins Incorporated, Mining and 20 Geology, Economic Geology Consultants. I am currently 21 the chairman of the Mojave Desert Advisory Council. I 22 am trying to relinquish that position. I have been 23 the chairman/representative for many years on the 24 educational committee of the Society of Mining 25 Engineers, Southern California Mining Section, about 5 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 300 members. I have been in the mining industry for 2 about four years, and I am a new member of the DAC and 3 this is my second meeting. 4 MEMBER BANIS: Good morning. Randy 5 Banis. I'm representing the public-at-large, at the 6 second meeting here at my term for the DAC. My wife 7 and I run an Internet development firm for large 8 publishers, East Coast publishers, in Lancaster, 9 California. And we live just on the edge of the 10 desert in Leona Valley, California. I'm a member of 11 the Ridgecrest Steering Committee, Hector's mini-DAC, 12 so to speak, and that's where I had the privilege of 13 meeting most of the folks here in the audience and 14 working with them here in the Ridgecrest area and with 15 Ron and others here on the board. 16 So it's nice to see this meeting coming 17 into Ridgecrest and seeing the friendly faces and 18 folks that I used to see every month. Good to see you 19 all again. On a couple TRT's along the way. 20 Hopefully they won't load me down with too many more. 21 MEMBER ACUNA: I'm Tom Acuna. I 22 represent the transportation and rights-of-way. I 23 work with Sempra Utilities, and that's Southern 24 California Gas and San Diego Gas and Electric. 25 What my team does, we prepare environmental 6 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 documentation for applications to regulatory agencies. 2 I'm finding this team, this advisory group wonderful 3 to work with. BLM is great to work with and great 4 relationships with them. 5 I want to thank Richard Rudnick for that 6 great barbecue we had yesterday. 7 (Applause from the audience.) 8 And of course, the BLM team for taking us 9 up Surprise Canyon and helping us along the top of the 10 canyon. 11 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: I'm Steve Borchard 12 for the BLM, and these folks on the Council here are 13 gracious enough to allow me to take an honored seat at 14 the table with them, and I serve as the federal 15 designated official taking advice and recommendations 16 from the Advisory Council. 17 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Don Maben, Second 18 District Supervisor in Kern County, and I am 19 representing the local representatives on the DAC. 20 MEMBER RUDNICK: Richard Rudnick, 21 part-time barbecuer. We did have a lot of fun, and 22 thank you guys for all your help. Thanks to Hector 23 and his crew and everybody that participated. 24 I'm a cattle rancher on the desert. I have 25 dealt with, especially the Ridgecrest BLM, for 30-plus 7 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 years, and I have had a great relationship. I was on 2 the DAC -- we didn't call it then in the 1980s -- I 3 think it was the second council that was formed. And 4 I have always had an interest in the desert and love 5 it and would like to see it prosper. Thank you. 6 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: I'm from ORBA, 7 public-at-large. I'm sorry I'm late. Really sorry. 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What is ORBA? 9 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: It's a great 10 association of off-road businesses, off-road 11 businesses. So if there are no places for people to 12 ride or drive their off-road vehicles, my members 13 can't sell their products. And I ride a dirt bike and 14 have been going to the desert since the early 15 eighties. 16 MEMBER HOLIDAY: I'm a recreationalist. 17 I'm a member of the TRT for the Imperial Sand Dunes 18 Recreation Area. Multiple board member for the 19 American Sand Association. 20 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: Jim Fitzpatrick. 21 This is my first meeting. I am currently -- I 22 represent public-at-large and am the deputy director 23 of the California Film Commission. I oversee all the 24 film permitting on parks, beaches, freeways, and 25 prisons and government buildings in the state of 8 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 California. Prior to that, I was eight years as a 2 lobbyist for the Motion Picture Association for the 3 studios, and during that time I helped craft and lobby 4 for PL 106206, which is the public law that allows 5 Departments of the Interior -- the BLM, Parks Service, 6 Fish and Wildlife -- and also in agriculture, the U.S. 7 Forest Service to collect fees, cost recovery and 8 location fees and keep about 90 percent of that in the 9 park, which was not true previous to that time. This 10 gives the parks an incentive to want to help filming, 11 which is an economic driver in California, although 12 not everybody sees it that way. 13 So before that, I filmed as an assistant 14 director and location manager since the early 15 eighties, at least in the desert, and actually lived 16 in Cathedral City while doing a series and did much of 17 my work south of Twentynine Palms all the way to the 18 Mexican border. 19 MEMBER CHARLTON: My name is Dave 20 Charlton, and I'm renewable resources and represent 21 California Native Plant Societies. This is my fifth 22 year and the last meeting. I missed the last meeting 23 because I was at an international botanical 24 conference. I'm sorry I didn't make the meeting 25 yesterday, but I just had hip replacement surgery two 9 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 weeks ago. I'm lucky to even be here. 2 I am also on the TRT and will continue on 3 with the Dumont Dunes TRT. I am a biologist at 4 Edwards Air Force Base, where I have worked since 5 1989. I spent five years at Fort Irwin and did most 6 of the science for the expansion. Apparently almost 7 the only vegetation science that's been done in the 8 last 20 years in the Mojave Desert, it's been done by 9 me, and it's summarized in third edition of 10 Terrestrial Vegetation of California. So I was 11 surprised to find that out a couple of weeks ago when 12 I was leafing through the book. But that's primarily 13 what I have been up to. 14 MR. RAZO: Steve Razo, external affairs, 15 California Desert District, and I would like to 16 introduce David C. Briery, who has just come on staff, 17 it's been a couple months now. He is assistant public 18 affairs officer, so you will be seeing him involved a 19 lot with the work of external affairs in the 20 California Desert District. 21 MS. HOGGAN: Kristin Minster-Hoggan. 22 I'm doing work in the congressional and legislative 23 areas for the director. 24 DR. GILLESPIE: I'm a visitor. I'm the 25 husband of the court reporter. 10 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MR. BELTRAN: Tom Beltran. I'm with the 2 California Native Plant Society, San Diego. I'm here 3 as an observer. 4 MR. MATTHEWS: David Matthews, general 5 public and oldtimer. I have been trying to make these 6 meetings, but it's been difficult recently. I'm also 7 here representing my grand kids and their future, 8 which is rapidly -- they are not kids anymore. They 9 are becoming adults. -- 10 MR. STEIN: Al Stein, chief resources 11 manager for BLM down in Moreno Valley. 12 MR. VILLALOBOS: I'm Hector Villalobos, 13 field manager at Ridgecrest. 14 MR. SMITH: Steve Smith, retired BLM 15 employee. Worked out here for 32 years for BLM at the 16 Ridgecrest office. 17 MR. HILLIER: I'm Gerry Hillier. I 18 guess I almost qualify as an oldtimer, don't I, Dave? 19 I'm here today as a consultant with San Bernardino 20 County, and I also serve as executive director of 21 State and Local Government Authority, which is a 22 four-state regional group involved in Endangered 23 Species Act issues. 24 MR. STEWARD: Daniel Steward, resources 25 branch chief for the El Centro field office. 11 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MS. WOOD: Vicki Wood, El Centro. 2 MR. QUILLMAN: William Quillman, chief 3 of resources, Barstow BLM, and acting field manager 4 while Roxie Trost is on vacation. 5 MR. AHRENS: Mike Ahrens, recreational 6 wilderness branch chief and acting field manager of 7 the Needles field office. 8 MR. KALISH: John Kalish, field manager 9 in Palm Springs for the BLM. 10 MR. HAMBY: Jack Hamby, associate 11 district manager out of Moreno Valley. 12 MR. WALDHEIM: Ed Waldheim, Friends of 13 Jawbone and in partnership with John. 14 MR. SELLARD: Michael Sellard, now 15 Mojave Rands Energy out of California City. Enjoy my 16 Jeep in the desert and enjoy the environmental side of 17 the desert but also the Jeep side. And we need to 18 find a good balance with energy, as well. I'm 19 involved with Ridgecrest Steering Committee, but not a 20 representative. And I am representing business, my 21 family, my grand kids and friends and family that like 22 to go out and enjoy the desert. 23 MR. MADDUX: Bill Maddux. And member of 24 BLM Steering Committee here in Ridgecrest. 25 MR. STEWART: John Stewart, Natural 12 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 Resource Consultant for California Four-Wheel Drive 2 Clubs. 3 MR. DUNLOP: Chris Dunlop, California 4 Motor Safety Program, Division of Motorcycle Safety 5 Foundation. Also active duty over at China Lake. 6 MR. LATIMER: John Latimer, dirt bike 7 enthusiast. I love the desert and I'll see what you 8 guys have to say. 9 MR. WALDHEIM: Ed Waldheim, president of 10 Trail Users Coalition, on the Advisory Steering 11 Committee in Ridgecrest, on the DAC for Dumont Dunes. 12 Past commissioner for the OHV program, State of 13 California. 14 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Thank you all for 15 coming out on a nice Saturday morning. 16 Next item on the agenda is a summary of the 17 field tour. Who wants to take that? I'll exercise 18 the prerogative of the chair and take one item out of 19 order. Twentynine Palms Land Withdrawal Update. 20 Mickey, if you could do that, please. 21 MR. QUILLMAN: I have given everybody a 22 copy of my slides. I don't know if they are on the 23 computer or not. But I appreciate your indulgence. I 24 have a family crisis that I need to deal with this 25 morning, so in my handouts there is a copy of the 13 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 Barstow quarterly report. There is also a copy of the 2 NOI, the Notice of Intent to do an EIS for the 3 Twentynine Palms expansion. And the last page of my 4 handout actually has the schedule of the three public 5 hearings that are going to happen. They are scheduled 6 for December 3 in Twentynine Palms, December 4 in 7 Victorville, and December 5, that's a Friday, at the 8 Ontario Convention Center. 9 Next slide. This is the Barstow field 10 office. Some of these slides are the ones from the 11 last quarterly report. As we go through them, we will 12 address some issues. 13 Next slide. This is a map of the Barstow 14 area. You can see we have about 3.2 million acres we 15 deal with. Population: Los Angeles is 14 million 16 people, Antelope Valley/Victorville area, 300,000 17 people; Pahrump/Las Vegas, a million people; San 18 Diego, 2 million people, all within a three-hour drive 19 of the desert. 20 There are five OHV areas within four hours, 21 two are within three hours, and one is within two 22 hours of the L.A. area. 23 The recreation programs include wilderness, 24 nonmotorized, special recreation permits, volunteers, 25 OHV vehicles, operations and maintenance. 14 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 It's a very diverse area, five areas set 2 aside for OHV area: Diverse terrain, Dumont Dunes, El 3 Mirage, lots of places to go ride. 4 There are the recreation areas: Dumont 5 Dunes, Rasor, Johnson Valley, Stoddard Valley, El 6 Mirage, and back country routes throughout the Barstow 7 field office. 8 Dumont Dunes, 84 acres of riding area, you 9 can ride the slide. I was out at Dumont Dunes this 10 last Halloween weekend and they tell me that the 11 attendance at Dumont over this last Halloween weekend 12 was down by 30 to 40 percent from last year, and I 13 guess that's a reflection of the economy where you are 14 going. 15 And that's just a picture of Competition 16 Hill out there. 17 El Mirage, we just had our grand opening on 18 the 25th of October after three years of arguing or 19 more than that in trying to get this building put 20 together. 21 This is a picture of Roxie Trost, our 22 Barstow field office manager, Ed Waldheim, being 23 presented a certificate by Brad Mitzelfelt, First 24 District Supervisor of San Bernardino County. 25 Probably the most important thing we are 15 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 going to talk about today is Johnson Valley. It's 2 188,000 acres; it's the largest off-road vehicle area 3 in the country. 4 Twentynine Palms has a contiguous border 5 with the eastern edge of Johnson Valley and in August, 6 they submitted a segregation request and they actually 7 -- next slide -- they submitted a segregation request, 8 and they basically drew a box around their 9 installation and segregated 422,000 acres around that 10 area. What does segregation mean? The BLM can no 11 longer issue any long-term activities. We can't issue 12 rights-of-way for mining; we can't issue rights-of-way 13 for solar or wind energy during this segregation 14 period, which is currently for two years. 15 During this two-year period the Marines are 16 going to look at where they want to expand, what will 17 fit best with their intended maneuvers, and what they 18 need to do to protect our country. The segregation 19 request includes the bulk of Johnson Valley off-road 20 vehicle area. Next slide? No more slides. Well, 21 there we go. 22 On the back of your handout, as I alluded 23 to earlier -- and there is more on the back table for 24 other people if they need it -- the NOI listed five 25 alternatives, plus a no-action alternative. They are 16 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 going to have three public scoping meetings to address 2 their purpose and need. But we had two segregation 3 meetings where BLM explained our responsibility during 4 the segregation period, and we -- they were attended 5 by 150 to 200 people both at the Twentynine Palms 6 location and about the same number as the Victorville 7 location. 8 So basically, in the next two years, the 9 Marines are going to make their decision as to how 10 much land they need of that segregated area, whether 11 they are going to be west into Johnson Valley or east 12 or a combination of both. So with that, pending 13 questions. 14 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: The NEPA process 15 will take more than two years. 16 MR. QUILLMAN: The segregation process 17 is for two years. Once they figure out what their 18 alternative is and they start their discussion, then 19 we will know where they are going to go. And they 20 could unsegregate, and then what is going to happen? 21 I imagine it's going to take five years to get to the 22 point where they are actually going to get any land. 23 If you look at Fort Irwin, it took them 20 years to 24 get the land they needed. 25 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: So they could extend 17 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 the segregation period? 2 MR. QUILLMAN: Fort Irwin was extended 3 seven or eight times. 4 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: They are just two- 5 years period by law. 6 MEMBER SHUMWAY: So this means in 7 particular that in the Johnson Valley, no plans of 8 operations or requests for rights-of-way would be even 9 considered or just not allowed? 10 MR. QUILLMAN: They won't even consider 11 anything during the segregation process. 12 MEMBER SHUMWAY: No applications? 13 MR. QUILLMAN: No applications for any 14 long-term activity. If you are going to have an 15 off-road vehicle event, that's okay during the 16 segregation period as long as it's currently acted. 17 But they will not entertain any mining requests, solar 18 projects. 19 MR. BORCHARD: We will continue to 20 process existing applications that are in a processing 21 phase. But if there is a wind farm and there is a 22 wind farm application, those applications we are 23 processing right now will continue to be processed if 24 the applicant wishes to go forward. 25 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Any questions? 18 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MR. WALDHEIM: I would like to take this 2 opportunity on behalf of Daphne Green and the Friends 3 of El Mirage for the incredible work that Mickey did 4 to get our Visitor's Center going. When he came on 5 board, Roxie turned the whole building project over to 6 him. Without his expertise and making do, we would 7 never have gotten that thing done. So I personally 8 want to thank Mickey for making it happen. A 20-year 9 project came to fruition because this guy really dug 10 in and made it happen. So let's give him a hand. 11 (Applause from the audience.) 12 CHAIRMAN MABEN: I saw a hand in the 13 back. 14 MR. HILLIER: Gerry Hillier, San 15 Bernardino County. From the statement that you and 16 Steve just made relevant to segregation, you say you 17 won't process new applications. But what would the 18 situation be if there were valid existing rights, for 19 example, an existing mining claim that the person 20 wanted to go in and do work on. Would that be 21 precluded, the exercise of valid existing rights? 22 MR. QUILLMAN: No. They can continue to 23 do anything they have been authorized to do. 24 Segregation just means we cannot issue any new 25 rights-of-way for long-term activity, new mining 19 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 claims. 2 MR. HILLIER: I know that you can't 3 file. It's withdrawn. But with the existing claim if 4 it's otherwise found to be valid, the right of ingress 5 and egress is, of course, permitted, isn't it? 6 MR. QUILLMAN: Yes, it is. 7 MR. MATTHEWS: Dave Matthews. I'm 8 wondering if there is any way that the public can 9 provide input to the Marine's planning. 10 MR. QUILLMAN: Absolutely. That's what 11 these next three meetings are about. 12 MR. MATTHEWS: Other than that. 13 MR. QUILLMAN: I have been getting 14 e-mails, so you can send e-mails to me at 15 William_Quillman@ca.blm.gov or you can go onto the 16 Marine Corps, Twentynine Palms Marine Corps. You can 17 find their Web site, you can make comments via that 18 way. You can send comments in writing to the Barstow 19 BLM office, and the address is on the Web site. 20 MR. NOSALA: Wayne Nosala. To address 21 that question, you can go to pfjv.org and there is a 22 form. You can download it and print it out, fill it 23 out, and it goes directly to the Barstow BLM office. 24 It's pfjv.org. 25 MR. HILLIER: Gerry Hillier, San 20 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 Bernardino County again. I had hoped this morning 2 that First District County Supervisor Brad Mitzelfelt 3 was going to be here. He is in town. I just couldn't 4 find him. He was expecting it to be on the agenda 5 later today, so he is not available and I know he did 6 plan to make some kind of a statement to the Council 7 relative to the County's involvement. 8 This is a big deal as far as San Bernardino 9 County is concerned. A number of constituents are 10 very deeply concerned relative to the effects of a 11 potential Marine Corps expansion to the west. The 12 supervisor wrote a fairly comprehensive and I would 13 characterize it probably as potentially controversial 14 letter to Senator Feinstein's staff and has been 15 having meetings with other congressional leadership on 16 the issue. 17 We have in front of the County not only the 18 Marine proposal, but we have continuing discussions -- 19 and I think they have been fairly common knowledge -- 20 relative to further expansion of the Natural 21 Wilderness Preservation System in the California 22 desert, sort of the finish of the 1994 California 23 Desert Protection Act. And the Fish and Wildlife 24 Service has issued their revised draft of the Desert 25 Tortoise Recovery Plan, which basically re-enforced 21 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 and restates the quasi-wilderness preservation system 2 there established through the conservation areas. So 3 you have all these in the air, plus, of course, as 4 everybody knows, the renewable energy press. 5 And what Supervisor Mitzelfelt called for 6 was that all of these things -- none of these things 7 be looked at in isolation, but rather there really 8 does need to be a comprehensive look at all of these 9 and how they balance out so that the constituents and 10 the Marines and others are taken care of and that 11 there would be a recognition of all these values. 12 And I think at this point we still haven't 13 got a resolution there for the whole Board of 14 Supervisors to speak on the issue there, but we 15 probably will have within the next 30 days. So it 16 will be probably put forth there with the County's 17 input. 18 But at any rate, I think the fundamental 19 thing is that there are a lot of things in the air and 20 most of them are for further restriction of public 21 access in the desert. And that's what really concerns 22 the County, and of course, you know, not only the 23 constituent concerns but filming industry concerns and 24 others. If Brad were here -- if he does show up later 25 today I would hope the Council could make an 22 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 opportunity to hear directly from him. But I think I 2 speak safely for him on his behalf that the County is 3 concerned. We support -- fully support the military 4 and the need for the expansion, but we need to look 5 comprehensively. I hesitate to use the word "Desert 6 Plan," but at any rate, these things all have to be 7 looked at in an integrated scheme and not in isolation 8 from each other. 9 MR. STEWART: John Stewart, California 10 Association of Four-Wheel Drive Clubs. 11 Mickey mentioned one slide that talked 12 about 14 million people in the L.A. basin area, as far 13 as population and two million in San Diego County. I 14 think it's important to realize that the San Diego to 15 L.A. basin area is one of the fastest growing areas in 16 the nation. In addition, just east across the border 17 in Clark County, Nevada, is another high growth 18 demographic where people are moving to. And these are 19 people coming into an area looking for a recreation 20 opportunity. 21 What Gerry Hillier said, and I support 22 completely, is we need to look at a comprehensive 23 overview as to how the recreation demands are going to 24 be met in conjunction with the requirements of 25 military and the requirements for mining, for solar 23 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 energy, and all these. Somehow we have to find a 2 balance. And with the rate of growth in that area, 3 probably a question that should be asked: Is that the 4 appropriate place to have live-fire exercises with the 5 booming metropolitan area so close to that type of 6 activity? 7 MEMBER BANIS: Thank you. If I could 8 touch briefly -- Randy Banis. I would like to touch 9 briefly on something that Gerry said in hopes that 10 Gerry can maybe even correct or clarify. San 11 Bernardino County in recent years has taken actions to 12 restrict the use of off-highway vehicles in the county 13 on private property. Is that correct, Gerry, that 14 there have been ordinances? 15 MR. HILLIER: The Board has passed some 16 ordinances there dealing with private land. I can't 17 speak directly to their content because I haven't been 18 involved in it, but I am aware that there are -- there 19 are both concerns from the standpoint of property 20 owners which the ordinances were intended to respond 21 to. And since the ordinances, there have been -- 22 there have been input to the Board relative to access 23 issues from the off-road vehicle community. 24 It's my understanding that supervisor's 25 staff, personal staff is taking another look at it, 24 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 whether there be revision or not. But I think he is 2 well aware there is a bit of controversy on the 3 ordinances. But they were basically to respond to 4 trespass use. And I hesitate to use the word, but on 5 private land and was -- the constituents were up in 6 arms relative to some of the private land use issues. 7 MEMBER BANIS: My point would simply be 8 that that discussions over those ordinances were done 9 with the expectations and knowledge that there are OHV 10 areas in San Bernardino County that are appropriate or 11 most appropriate for OHV activity. And Johnson Valley 12 certainly is the most important one there. And I 13 think that so many -- so much planning and management 14 activities have occurred throughout the county and 15 neighboring counties that are depending on these OHV 16 areas to be there. And having it be displaced would 17 have a detrimental effect on the effectiveness of 18 implementing policies in those sprawling areas that 19 are trying to keep peace and quiet in the 20 neighborhoods. 21 MEMBER SCHILLER: Having been involved 22 in these issues for a long time, it's troubling that 23 there is always a demand, such as the expansion of 24 Fort Irwin and now we have the expansion of Twentynine 25 Palms being proposed. I have heard of several 25 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 proposed wilderness areas to be "buffer zones" for 2 military lands. Now, what concerns me is we've got 3 areas like Cuddeback where the military has left a 4 mess. It seems to me if we are going to start giving 5 more land, they should go back to clean up areas where 6 we no longer have access to in those old gunnery 7 ranges that are closed, like Cuddeback. Any response 8 to that? 9 MEMBER HOLIDAY: Sounds good to me. 10 MEMBER SCHILLER: How many of these do 11 we have? But we have messes out there that they 12 haven't cleaned up from years and years back. 13 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: My response is I 14 think that's an excellent question to bring up during 15 the expansion process and commenting on the expansion 16 process, maybe in the context if additional lands are 17 needed and there are other past lands used for 18 supporting our nation's military mission that aren't 19 needed anymore, then shouldn't those lands be 20 evaluated and cleanup started so that they would be 21 available for additional uses? 22 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Is it too much to 23 ask maybe to have the military come to our next DAC 24 meeting and answer some of our questions? I don't 25 know if that's out of line or not. 26 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 CHAIRMAN MABEN: They were in our 2 Riverside meeting. 3 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: We didn't know quite 4 as much as we know now. 5 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Since this issue 6 will be with us for years to come, maybe it should be 7 suggested as a standing agenda item where we request 8 representation at each of our meetings, which may be a 9 way to move forward now. It's going to be an issue 10 that's going to be on our minds for a long time to 11 come. 12 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: I like that idea. 13 Thank you. 14 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: Jim Fitzpatrick. 15 Public-at-large. Two specific questions: No. 1, am I 16 to understand that the segregation process can go on 17 ad infinitum with no limit? 18 MR. QUILLMAN: It can be renewed in 19 two-year increments for as long as -- I don't know, 20 Steve. Is there a limit? 21 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: I don't know if 22 there is a limit or not. 23 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: Can someone 24 investigate? 25 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: We can and get back. 27 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: Okay. Because I 2 have parallels with the BRAC process which didn't have 3 sunsets on it and dragged on forever. This could 4 certainly be a similar situation where you tie 5 something up unreasonably, I think. 6 No. 2, for my own devil in the details, 7 when you say you can't consider new projects that are 8 of long-term duration, what is that? For example, if 9 I have a film company that comes out there and they 10 want to build temporary things for a month or so, are 11 they going to be denied because of this segregation 12 process? 13 MR. QUILLMAN: No. What we are talking 14 about is preventing -- we are not accepting new 15 applications for wind or solar plants or new 16 applications for mining rights-of-way. 17 MR. FITZGERALD: So permanent? 18 MR. QUILLMAN: But short-term, less than 19 two-year duration projects would certainly be 20 considered. 21 MR. NOSALA: I just want to enter into 22 the public record if at all possible, if there is 23 enough pressure, to have the BLM deny the withdrawal 24 application on the west side of the base. 25 MR. BORCHARD: A point of clarification. 28 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 The authority to grant a withdrawal for military 2 purposes that exceeds 5,000 acres is not a BLM 3 decision. It's a congressional decision. So this 4 particular exercise we are going through actually 5 falls under the Engle Act. And the question of 6 withdrawal will be considered by Congress, not BLM. 7 MR. WALDHEIM: I would like to 8 respectfully request by the end of the day that this 9 DAC come up with a very specific motion in dealing 10 with the Twentynine Palms segregation for the Johnson 11 Valley. And what I am looking for from you is to make 12 a motion that you support the Twentynine Palms 13 expansion, but respectfully request they go east and 14 they protect the public's access to Johnson Valley. 15 That has been given to the public during 17 years of 16 management planning, and to have the rug just pulled 17 out from underneath them right now is criminal. 18 And so I think a strong message needs to be 19 sent from the DAC board members that though we respect 20 the military wanting expansion, there are other ways 21 for them to go, as Ron mentioned. There are other 22 areas, other things that they can do. So I think by 23 the end of the day it would be kind of cool if you 24 could do that after you listen to Supervisor Brad 25 Mitzelfelt, and before you adjourn come up with a 29 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 strong message that can be entered into the record. 2 We certainly would appreciate that. 3 MR. HILLIER: Gerry Hillier, San 4 Bernardino County. 5 Just to correct one thing for the record, 6 Johnson Valley was affirmed as an off-highway vehicle 7 area in 1980 in the Desert Plan. So as far as being 8 an integral part of that statement, that's gone on now 9 for 28 years. The Desert Plan was signed off on by 10 the Secretary in December of 1980. 11 Actually, the formal designation, and I 12 guess respecting by BLM of the use in there goes back 13 to 1972, which is even a much longer period, 36 years, 14 with the original ICMP, the Interim Critical 15 Management Plan for off-highway vehicles. So Johnson 16 Valley really has been out there as a public-use area 17 for almost 40 years. It was obviously an informal 18 area and then in '72, BLM did its first planning. So 19 Johnson Valley was so designated formally in that, 20 along with several other areas, several of which have 21 gone bye-bye. And so that is really a very -- what Ed 22 says is very solid in terms of its designation as a 23 public recreation area. 24 I might also add for the record, because of 25 that use pattern and because of the recognition of 30 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 public use, when Fish and Wildlife Service designated 2 critical habitat for desert tortoise in 1994, while 3 they did embrace several areas that have proved to be 4 somewhat controversial in terms of critical habitat -- 5 by definition that's areas that are not part of 6 otherwise protected systems -- they excluded 7 specifically Johnson Valley. 8 There are tortoise populations in there, in 9 remote areas. And all that is known. But it was not 10 deemed to be critical habitat, while the grazing 11 allotments and all those north of the Ord Mountain area 12 were included in that critical habitat. So there has 13 been an institutional framework established which 14 recognized and respected the public use values in 15 Johnson Valley. 16 CHAIRMAN MABEN: If no further 17 questions, thank you, Mickey. 18 MR. QUILLMAN: I want to personally 19 thank the DAC for the opportunity to be here. And the 20 field trip yesterday was fantastic. Thank you so 21 much. 22 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Good luck, Mickey. 23 Thank you. 24 CHAIRMAN MABEN: This brings us back to 25 the schedule. Summary of the field tour. BLM staff. 31 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 Are you the chief staff? 2 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: I think our tour 3 leader, Hector Villalobos, will give us an excellent 4 summary and will facilitate an informative discussion. 5 MR. VILLALOBOS: For those of you that 6 weren't with us on the field trip yesterday, we 7 started yesterday at a location called Isham Canyon. 8 Isham Canyon is one of the dispersed -- one of many 9 dispersed trails that we have in the desert. We 10 probably have approximately, I would say hundreds, 11 maybe a thousand miles worth of -- not that exactly, 12 but routes that are outside of the more heavily used 13 OHV areas that extend from the Ridgecrest area all the 14 way to the Nevada border near Fish Valley. 15 So this is an example of the kind of 16 recreation that a lot of people enjoy in four-wheel- 17 drive vehicles. Some of the roads are very 18 challenging. I think what you saw yesterday was one 19 of the more challenging routes for four-wheel drive 20 enthusiasts. 21 Some of the other routes are standard where 22 four-wheel drive vehicles can negotiate without any 23 problems, and they really provide a lot of access for 24 the desert people that like and enjoy the desert, 25 especially in areas where they want to get away from a 32 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 few thousand people recreating. They want to get 2 away, go out hunting, and explore some back-country 3 areas. We had some old mining areas that we are 4 trying to make more -- well, we are trying to make 5 these safe and prompt people's awareness of the safety 6 concerns we have out there. 7 But basically a lot of neat, dispersed type 8 of four-wheel-drive activity. But it also provides 9 access to -- what I like about in some of these areas, 10 they take you to a trail head and from there you can 11 put on your boots and walk for quite a while. So you 12 got a little example of that at Surprise Canyon where 13 you go there and you drive on a little four-wheel 14 drive or sort of a rough, rutted road. You get to 15 Chris Wicht Camp and put on your boots or tennis shoes 16 and get out there and take a look at the area there. 17 At Surprise Canyon, you know that old route 18 was washed out in many places and the situation now is 19 that we are doing a planning effort there to either 20 reopen that route the way it was used in the past, or 21 look at several alternatives. Or, you know, the other 22 option is to leave it like it is right now. And we 23 are working with the Park Service on the 24 environmental review of that. And it's been quite a 25 controversial situation. I didn't necessarily want to 33 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 get into the controversies yesterday. I think 2 everyone is aware of them. 3 So I wanted -- my goal was to just to get 4 people out there, take a look and see, and in your own 5 mind kind of be thinking of what the future situation 6 is for Surprise Canyon. And that was my goal for the 7 DAC is to show you the situation there and show you 8 that kind of recreation. And then for your own mind, 9 kind of think where we are going when we get going 10 with this process again. 11 We finished our tour at the Pinnacles, the 12 Trona Pinnacles, which I sometimes call Tent Rocks 13 because I get my mind mixed up on areas that I enjoy. 14 But Trona Pinnacles is a very unique location where we 15 have these geologic formations that have been used as 16 backdrops in a whole bunch of movies and commercials. 17 It's a very popular destination. It's called a 18 National Natural Landmark, and it's existed for a long 19 time. In fact, some of the folks that have filmed out 20 there have helped us mitigate some of the impacts that 21 we get from the public visiting the area. 22 There were -- one time in one of the movies 23 we had lots of trails and people actually wanted to 24 just drive up to the Pinnacles for some reason and get 25 out and take a picture and get back in their car and 34 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 drive away. So they were leaving a lot of tire tracks 2 in that area. So when a few movie companies came in, 3 they actually did some restoration of those areas and 4 put rocks back into place where they kind of deter 5 that kind of activity. 6 But we really enjoyed the Pinnacles and if 7 you really want to get a feeling for it sometime, go 8 out there during the middle of summer and you will 9 feel that heat. And I have done that with my kids 10 just for the heck of it. We go to kind of experience 11 what it might be like out there. And it is -- I think 12 when we went out there one time it was 116 degrees and 13 we darn near fell over after just walking about 50 14 yards. Let's get back in the car and get out of here. 15 But it's a real unique place. 16 We had a great barbecue and I really 17 appreciate Mr. Rudnick insisting that we have a 18 barbecue. And it was planned that maybe we would go 19 over to the other side of the valley after our field 20 trip -- not the valley but on the other side by the 21 eastern Sierras. As it was, we were there until I 22 don't know how late we were. 23 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Past my bedtime. 24 MR. VILLALOBOS: But everybody got home 25 and everybody had a great time, I think. And so I 35 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 appreciate everybody's participation in that. Any 2 questions for me? I will be glad to answer them? 3 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Thanks again. 4 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Did we give Richard 5 a round of applause? 6 (Applause from the audience.) 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: My name is 8 Cynthia (unintelligible). It was declared an ACEC 9 back in 1980. I believe it was 1983, was it? 10 MR. VILLALOBOS: The Pinnacles? 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Are there any 12 plans to upgrade it in the future? 13 MR. VILLALOBOS: No. It's also a 14 different designation. It may also be an ACEC or an 15 area of critical environmental concern. No, we are 16 not planning to change any designations there. But 17 it's also called a National Natural Landmark. And I 18 had somebody from the Park Service one day that called 19 me up and they wanted to inspect the area. And -- why 20 is the Park Service coming out to that area? But 21 there is some kind of tie to the national designation 22 to the Park Service, but they don't manage it, they 23 just kind of oversee, I think in general, national- 24 type things. 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you. 36 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Any other questions? 2 MEMBER HUND: Geary Hund. I happened to 3 find a plaque out there when I was walking around the 4 Pinnacles that indicated that there was Federal 5 legislation passed on August 21, 1935 that created 6 that category of National Natural Landmark and just 7 thought I would share that. And apparently the Park 8 Service does have some kind of role in administering 9 them but not managing them. 10 And secondly, I was wondering if you could 11 share with the group how the Pinnacles were formed 12 because I found that to be pretty fascinating. 13 MR. VILLALOBOS: The Pinnacles were 14 formed -- they were under water. They were under 15 water. There were seeps, certain seeps that were 16 creating those Pinnacles, very similar to what we've 17 seen at Mono Lake. And so there are -- there is 18 also -- it also encourages the microbes to seek these 19 different -- these little different areas and these 20 microbes together with the seeps that are occurring 21 there start to grow these formations. So actually you 22 have a little bit of a microbe action occurring 23 underwater where there are seeps. And it's favorable 24 to that kind of growth. 25 And they kind of form those Pinnacles the 37 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 way they are, so if you take a close look at them, 2 even if you were to look at them under a little bit of 3 a hand lens, you would see some kind of funny 4 formations in that rock, which is a tufa formation. 5 And it's basically calcium carbonate is what's being 6 formed right there at the bottom of the lake. So it 7 might be a little bit warmer water that might be 8 seeping through the bottom of the lake. 9 I know I put on my little travelogue, I 10 think that area was several hundred feet under water 11 at one time, and we've had -- through geologic time 12 it's dried up, and what you saw at Searles Lake, the 13 company that is actually mining in situ, in other 14 words, solution mining of some of the minerals that 15 are under the lake. So a lot of interesting 16 formations that occurred right there, and those are 17 the very unique -- don't-happen-everywhere-type 18 formation. 19 MEMBER SCHILLER: Just as a side note -- 20 this is a side note. There used to be more of those 21 over toward the Searles, Searles Trona Road, but they 22 were cut down. And it's interesting to note the 23 oldest building in Ridgecrest, which is right down the 24 street here at Norma and Ridgecrest Boulevard, is made 25 from sodden tufa. And it's kind of a local landmark 38 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 but it's kind of interesting. It was soft enough to 2 cut up in blocks to make one of the early buildings in 3 Ridgecrest. In fact, the oldest building in 4 Ridgecrest. 5 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: I don't want to 6 steal the Chair's thunder, but since Hector is up 7 there, I would like to take this opportunity to thank 8 him and his staff for the wonderful field tour that we 9 all experienced not only for the DAC, but on behalf of 10 the public and everyone that attended. 11 MR. VILLALOBOS: Thank you. Well, we 12 enjoyed ourselves. 13 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Thank you, Hector. It 14 just was pointed out that I missed approval of the 15 July 25 meetings transcript, so are there any 16 corrections or questions regarding those transcripts? 17 MEMBER BANIS: Just one, please, on the 18 transcript minutes, page 60, line 22. I apologize for 19 my poor diction. The name of the canyon is Woodpecker 20 Canyon, please. 21 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Is there a motion? 22 MEMBER BANIS: If there are no further 23 corrections, I would like to move acceptance of the 24 transcript. 25 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Second. 39 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 CHAIRMAN MABEN: All in favor, aye. 2 (Voice vote taken.) They are approved. Thank you. 3 This gets us back on schedule again. 4 We were now at the public questions for 5 items not on the agenda. And Mr. Dunlop, you have a 6 card submitted. Would you like to make your 7 presentation now, or question? 8 MR. DUNLOP: Sure. I teach Motorcycle 9 Safety Foundation's dirt bike class, close range 10 exercises, Tread Lightly Program. And I was wondering 11 if there could be some sort of I guess class or 12 something else, some sort of requirement so that 13 people understand what they are doing to the 14 environment or what impact they are having or a 15 requirement to get into a State Park or something like 16 that, for example. 17 Unfortunately, I'm not Tread Lightly 18 Program-certified, but it's part of the dirt bike 19 course. It seemed very worthwhile, and it could be 20 kind of giving something back. It's kind of painful 21 paying a fee to just get in there and have everybody 22 else doing their free-for-all thing. I think it would 23 be a lot better, for example, El Mirage, I have heard 24 a lot of the uproar that there is a fee again there 25 now. If there is a quick little class where you could 40 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 explain what these trail signs look like or 2 environmental impact of staying on the trail or off 3 the trail, I think that would be a great benefit for 4 the community and for the environment also. That's 5 about it. 6 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Thank you. 7 MEMBER RUDNICK: Thank you. I couldn't 8 agree more. I couldn't agree more and thank you for 9 bringing it up. Education and learning about the 10 desert and how to use it properly is most important, 11 and I think that's a very good suggestion. 12 MEMBER BANIS: We might want to point 13 out that the BLM Ridgecrest office, per the direction 14 of the West Mojave Plan, recently enacted an 15 education -- a rider education and permit program for 16 the environmentally sensitive Rand Mountains. It's an 17 unusual program. It's one of the first programs of 18 its type, and therefore, is being received with a bit 19 of controversy among some of the users. 20 But it's a permit program that is based on 21 a brief course for a brief educational program. And 22 that program will grow and be expanded next year when 23 the fees for accessing that area are implemented. And 24 that could be something that we will all want to keep 25 an eye on to see if that approach is going to work in 41 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 such sensitive places. Thank you. 2 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Next? 3 MR. MURA: John Mura. Question for 4 Randy. Are you saying you want to start charging fees 5 to use the land out here? 6 MEMBER BANIS: No. No. I'm saying that 7 we were stuck with a directive when the West Mojave 8 Plan was adopted by the BLM, a plan about this thick 9 (indicating) and was nearly a decade-long process, 10 with a large number of major changes that are 11 affecting access to the public lands, particularly for 12 motorized vehicles. 13 And my own -- this is going to be my own 14 observation here -- is that there was so much on the 15 table during the West Mojave Plan to look at, 16 particularly specific certain routes, important routes 17 in areas of the Black Mountain, Opal Mountain areas, 18 down by Barstow, areas up in Ridgecrest, and we were 19 busy looking at all the route maps, what are you 20 keeping open and closing? And once this Mojave Plan 21 was finally signed and put into effect, we started 22 combing through this plan as users and seeing what 23 else might be in there and lo and behold, we find 24 among a number of other issues there is this Rand 25 Mountains permit program. About three or four 42 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 paragraphs within the West Mojave Plan. 2 And this plan said that the BLM will have 3 to develop an education program, and that it will be a 4 fee program -- this is in the language -- in order to 5 allow continued use of the Rand Mountains Management 6 Area by motorized vehicles. This plan was passed four 7 years ago, perhaps, and there was a time line for this 8 implementation. And we were approaching and passing 9 the time line on that particular plan. 10 And as a user, I became concerned that -- 11 let me just say the Rand Mountains planning area is a 12 fairly large area that contains a large number of 13 miles of trails. I'm sorry, 150 -- 120 miles of 14 trails. If this Rand Mountains Planning -- this 15 education permit program were not put into place, we 16 would have faced the possibility of additional 17 lawsuits that have potentially shut down the entire 18 Rand Mountains Management Area to motorized use. 19 So the reason that I tried my best to 20 spearhead the Rand Mountains Permit Program was to get 21 it off the ground so that we would not lose all the 22 routes in that entire area. Do I think that that 23 program should be exported to other environmentally 24 sensitive areas and carry a fee with them? No. But 25 I'm awfully, awfully curious and anxious to see what 43 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 happens with this particular program. I'm calling it 2 a pilot program only because it's the first one that 3 we were aware of of its type. And I'm hoping it has a 4 good effect on educating people. And we are just 5 going to have to see. 6 This first year is free and the fee won't 7 be implemented until next year. What that fee is I 8 don't know. The fee -- the fee in the West Mojave 9 Plan will have to cover the cost of administrating 10 that permit program. But let me say there are some 11 key things in there. The education program must be 12 brief -- those are the words used -- so it's not going 13 to be restrictive or have a list of 500 questions that 14 you have to answer correctly or anything like that. 15 And that the fee must be a modest fee. So I hope that 16 those guidelines continue to be stuck to for all of 17 us. Thank you for indulging me with a long 18 explanation, but it's an explanation that I felt was 19 important, due to my role in this particular permit 20 program. 21 MR. DUNLOP: Where can I find out more 22 information on that? 23 MR. WALDHEIM: Jawbone.org, the Web site 24 that has all the information about the permit. 25 MEMBER BANIS: Thank you for bringing 44 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 that up. 2 MR. WALDHEIM: It says public questions 3 for items not on the agenda. I have some other 4 statements, but I will do that at 2:45 when you have 5 other comments. 6 This one is questions for items not on the 7 agenda. Two items. I would like the DAC to please 8 put on the agenda Daphne Green at your next meeting 9 for the specific purpose of elaborating on education. 10 At the next commission meeting which will be 11 December 3 up at Sacramento, brand new commissioners, 12 they haven't had a meeting in almost a year. I have 13 been working with her very closely due to a statewide 14 education program. And so we hope from the December 15 3rd meeting that she will be able to unveil or 16 encourage those commissioners to really get behind it. 17 And I think with the education that you are talking 18 about, with what we are doing in the permit system, I 19 think it's high time the California Desert, especially 20 the DAC, would become involved in what she is doing. 21 No. 2, I would like to put on the agenda 22 the cumulative effects of the loss of access to our 23 public lands with the renewable -- no, with the solar, 24 geothermal, wind, military applications that are 25 coming down on us. As you know, the president has 45 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 made it very clear that renewable resources -- 2 energy -- renewable resources be pushed very hard. 3 Governor Schwarzenegger in his addresses at public 4 meetings that he has had and in conferences we have 5 had on the telephone call, he has made it clear he 6 wants to see a shovel in the ground. BLM is right in 7 the middle of the eye of this hurricane. 8 When I talked to Mr. Mike Pool, I told him 9 yes, we approve of that. We like that, but we cannot 10 continue to have an erosion of access to our public 11 lands in order to accommodate this new renewable 12 resource phenomena that's taking place. So I think 13 the DAC needs to be an integral part of how we are 14 going to manage our public lands or renewable 15 resources and still fulfill our requirement to the 16 public for access to our public lands, not just for 17 renewable resource. 18 It's a big issue. I'm not against 19 renewables, but I want to protect the access to our 20 public lands. And I think these two items, if you can 21 put them on the agenda, I think it would be a 22 worthwhile topic for you to discuss. 23 MR. STEWART: John Stewart, California 24 Association of Four-Wheel Drive Clubs. 25 One issue that keeps coming up time and 46 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 time again is the designation of routes within the 2 planning areas. One of the things that we from the 3 recreation side are having trouble finding is accurate 4 maps that reflect where routes are open. And this is 5 something that -- some process should be put in place 6 much like with the Forest Service. Within the Forest 7 Service process they have on their Web site their 8 topographical maps that they use in order to develop 9 their Parkview GIS layers for the transportation 10 system. Something like this from the BLM as far as 11 making these maps easily downloadable for the public 12 and something that's an updated repository that's 13 easily accessible would be a major improvement of 14 keeping the public informed and giving them an 15 opportunity to obtain updated maps within a reasonable 16 cost and within a reasonable timeframe. 17 MEMBER BANIS: In the July 25th 18 transcript, I requested that. But I think that might 19 have got missed in the planning. Thank you. I second 20 Mr. Stewart's suggestion. Thank you. 21 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Will that be on our 22 next agenda? 23 MR. RAZO: I will explain to you why it 24 wasn't this time. But, yes, we think we can be ready 25 next time. 47 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Seeing no further. 2 MEMBER SCHILLER: Is this an appropriate 3 time for a DAC member to ask a nonagenda question? 4 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Go for it. 5 MEMBER SCHILLER: The first comment or 6 question I had was I see now that the BLM has -- no 7 longer has on their Web site employee directories for 8 the areas. It makes it difficult now to contact one 9 of your employees regarding an issue. And I just 10 wonder if that's going to be changed, if it's 11 temporary or permanent? 12 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: That's permanent. 13 MEMBER SCHILLER: It is? 14 MEMBER BANIS: So the fact that I loaded 15 that page in here is providence. 16 MEMBER SCHILLER: The other question 17 that I have is after the Desert Bill or the -- excuse 18 me -- Desert Plan was finalized and enacted, and we 19 started having amendments to the plan, for many years 20 there was a call for public input for amendments to 21 the plan. 22 Now all I see is a lot of stuff coming from 23 the BLM saying we are going to do a Desert Plan 24 amendment here and there. But there is no opportunity 25 now for the public to provide suggestions for plan 48 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 amendments to the 1980 Desert Plan. And I think 2 that's something that really should be changed and we 3 should go back to the way it was in the eighties where 4 there was an opportunity. 5 And the reason I say that is because now 6 we've got WEMO, NEMO, NECO and all of these which 7 were -- are now designated as plan amendments to the 8 Desert Plan. And I see places and times now where we 9 are going to need opportunity -- we may need to have a 10 route washed out and we need to mitigate that or some 11 other attraction that the public needs access to. And 12 I think that there needs to be some mechanism for the 13 public to make suggestions on that Desert Plan. 14 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Well, certainly the 15 public can request a plan amendment at any time. 16 There is no prohibition on the public requesting a 17 plan amendment. Maybe one way to let the public know 18 that BLM will always consider requests for plan 19 amendments would be for us to post maybe the plan 20 amendment request process and our position on our Web 21 site. We could do that. 22 But certainly the door is always open for 23 the public. We just -- we haven't been advertising 24 and soliciting requests for plan amendment. If that 25 was done earlier in our existence, but it isn't 49 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 something that we actively solicit today. However, 2 that doesn't -- because we are not soliciting it, that 3 does not mean that the process or the public's access 4 to request plan amendments has changed. It's still 5 the same. 6 MEMBER SCHILLER: I got the impression 7 that it has changed. 8 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: No, there are no 9 changes. 10 MEMBER RUDNICK: Along with Ron's first 11 comment about access to the employee's phone numbers, 12 names, and such, perhaps it would -- I would like to 13 see when we traveled around the desert to the 14 different areas, could we have more access to the 15 employees in that area office? Could they participate 16 with us a little more, not only the people that are 17 giving reports, but other folks that we deal with or 18 dealt with on a daily basis? I would like to see them 19 and meet them. And hopefully, they would like to talk 20 to us. 21 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: What would you 22 suggest as -- that would be a casual, conducive forum? 23 MEMBER RUDNICK: Another barbecue. 24 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: That's exactly what 25 I was thinking. 50 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Just invite the 2 whole field office to the barbecue. 3 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: I think in our 4 second barbecue here after our one at Needles that Ron 5 hosted, you, too, have set the standard for meals and 6 gatherings to come. And that we will never be eating 7 at a restaurant again. 8 MEMBER HUND: Geary Hund. I just wanted 9 to also comment on taking down the employee 10 directories. I found those to be incredibly useful, 11 and I really thought it was great that the BLM did 12 that because it made BLM more accessible to the 13 public. And without getting into the reasons why BLM 14 made that decision, I would think at a minimum it 15 would be good to continue to post at least everyone's 16 name and title in an office so -- and then with a 17 general contact number so people knew the different 18 folks that were in an office that might be the person 19 to contact to ask a question about or give assistance 20 with a particular issue that they are interested in 21 like real estate, geology, wildlife, whatever. So I 22 just wanted to make that suggestion that at a minimum, 23 people at least know the structure, like an org chart 24 in there, so folks can see who the different 25 specialists are and managers. 51 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Even if you don't 2 have an extension, just a main number and resources, 3 recreation, renewable energy. These are people that 4 you ask for. 5 MEMBER HUND: Exactly. 6 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: We can take that 7 suggestion forward and see what kind of response we 8 get. I guess I will just very briefly tell you that 9 the directive to change our directory structure came 10 down through our headquarters with advice from our 11 solicitors as to what new structure each office was to 12 adopt nationwide for BLM. So let me assure you this 13 is not a local decision. 14 MEMBER HUND: We didn't think it was. 15 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN: I think a lot of it 16 had to do with standardization nationally. They did 17 it with our Web pages, so it was not something they 18 solicited from the field on, but it came down from the 19 director. We can have Mike Pool find out if they are 20 open to us doing that. This is the new standard 21 nationwide, and these are the numbers you can have up 22 and names you can have up. 23 MEMBER SCHILLER: It's not a legal issue 24 or problem? It's just a policy? 25 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: I believe it has 52 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 something to do with our interpretation of the Privacy 2 Act. 3 MEMBER SCHILLER: I know the Forest 4 Service, you can still do a search for employees and 5 you can find their phone number and e-mail. 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What do lawyers 7 know? 8 CHAIRMAN MABEN: I think it's a perfect 9 segueway into the state director's report. 10 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN: I'm Kristin Hoggan, 11 and as I said, I do congressional affairs for Mike 12 Pool, and I'm here representing him today. 13 Mike has been in Phoenix this week working 14 with the ELT, which is their Executive Leadership Team 15 for the Bureau nationwide, and they are working on a 16 lot of transition issues, being that we are coming on 17 to a period of transition. They're going to try to 18 figure out ways to make this as painless as possible 19 and continue on with the work we are doing, despite 20 the change of leadership on every level in the 21 Department of Interior and the Bureau. So Mike 22 apologizes he couldn't be here. 23 He wanted me to pass on a couple of things, 24 a few national and statewide updates, and then if you 25 have any questions, I would be happy to see if I could 53 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 answer those at the end. 2 First of all, Mike did want me to welcome 3 the new members of the DAC and thank you for the 4 service, giving advice and input on the difficult 5 issues we face. Obviously, BLM covers the whole 6 state, but some of our most controversial issues are 7 the desert issues. So I appreciate your time and 8 attention to those in helping our managers to be able 9 to do their jobs well. 10 First thing I wanted to say, just to give 11 you a few updates on legislation, we still do not have 12 a budget passed for '09. We are working on a 13 continuing resolution that right now is going to go 14 through March of '09. So that continues us at last 15 year's funding level. But no new programs or funding 16 can be enacted until the Congress acts upon that. 17 They will have to act by March either with another 18 continuing resolution or a passed budget, and we are 19 hopeful for the second. 20 Also right now, we have this Omnibus Lands 21 Package that is in the Senate, and we have four 22 specific bills that are a part of that, three of which 23 have passed the House. And they all were put into 24 this big lands bill. And when Congress wanted to 25 recess in October, we didn't know if there would be 54 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 any hope for those being passed. But Harry Reid has 2 indicated they are coming back for a lame duck session 3 in the Senate on Monday, the 17th, and he has 4 indicated although the focus is going to be on the 5 financial rescue, he is hoping to bring the Omnibus 6 Land Package to the floor. 7 The House will be back in session for a 8 lame duck session on the 19th, Wednesday, the 19th, so 9 there is a small possibility that these bills could 10 get passed. I will give you a little bit of 11 information on which ones we have in there. The first 12 is the National Landscape Conservation Act, which 13 basically codifies our National Landscape System. 14 That passed the House and is now in the Senate, but 15 interestingly enough, this is one of the bills that is 16 under a lot of controversy now and possibly holding up 17 the passage of the Omnibus Land Bill. 18 A few Congressmen from western states that 19 have concerns about the NLCS Bill adding to basically 20 the bill of taking care of our public lands, so right 21 now there is a holdup there. Also on October 30th, 22 the US Chamber of Commence came out against the bill 23 as well, the National Landscape Conservation Bill, and 24 asked that it be taken out of the Omnibus Land Bill. 25 They could take that Omnibus bill forward and take 55 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 that piece out, but that is right now more of an issue 2 than we thought it would be. 3 Secondly, we have the Bono Mack and Boxer 4 Wilderness Bill, which is the California Desert and 5 Mountain Heritage Act of 2008. It designates a lot of 6 wilderness and scenic rivers in Riverside County. 7 That's passed the House last spring. It's been 8 waiting quite a while to go to the Senate floor. And 9 we made a few -- there were a few changes made with 10 the help of BLM to make room for some energy 11 corridors, but we have supported this bill and look 12 forward to that going forward. 13 The other one introduced in May of 2008 was 14 the Eastern Sierra and Northern San Gabriel Wild 15 Heritage Act of 2008. This was Boxer and Congressman 16 McKeon putting this forward. Basically this will 17 designate 230,000 acres into the wilderness system as 18 well as designating parts of the Amargosa River as a 19 Wild and Scenic River. But this one has not passed 20 the House. It's an Omnibus Land Bill in the Senate, 21 so if it passes in the Senate when the Omnibus goes 22 back to the House, it could be included with all of 23 these. 24 The fourth one we have is one in Northern 25 California. It's an Indian Lands transfer, so that 56 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 doesn't affect us as much. 2 So those are the main ones we are looking 3 at. We will probably know within the next few weeks 4 if those are going to go forward or have to be 5 reintroduced in the new Congress next year. 6 The other issue that Mike wanted me to 7 bring up, obviously, is renewable energy, a very hot 8 topic. And although most of our applications are here 9 in the desert and this is the primary area, he did 10 want us to remind you that we do have a few 11 applications elsewhere in the state, and it's an issue 12 we are looking at statewide. And right now we have 80 13 solar applications and 90 wind applications statewide 14 for different areas on BLM land. 15 But something quite interesting, too, is we 16 are working closely with the State, and it looks like 17 the governor is going to be signing an executive order 18 on renewable energy possibly in the next few weeks. 19 As part of that, we are going to be entering into a 20 Memorandum of Understanding with the State Energy 21 Commission, State Department of Fish and Game, and 22 Fish and Wildlife Service and BLM. So there should be 23 more information on that if things go as the State is 24 indicating they would like it to. 25 Lastly, I wanted to pass out a press 57 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 release that came from the Washington office on the 2 Wild Horse and Burro Program. And Steve will comment 3 on that. And I will put out any extras I have. 4 On November 10th, the Government 5 Accountability Office issued a report on the long-term 6 options for our Wild Horse and Burro Program. There 7 are a lot of problems right now with just too many 8 horses, not having the funding levels that we need, 9 adoptions are down for a variety of reasons. So 10 basically this report from the GAO has gone to the 11 House Resources Committee and the Chairman of the 12 House. But we did issue the statement from the 13 Washington office, which I'm passing out. And for 14 right now that's BLM's complete statement on the 15 report. 16 This next Monday our Horse and Burro 17 Advisory Council, the national one, is going to be 18 meeting in Reno. And our assistant director, Henri 19 Bisson is going to be there, and basically they are 20 going to figure out how we are going to go from here 21 on out. So we are waiting for word from them on how 22 we are going to take this GAO report and move forward 23 with the Wild Horse and Burro Program. But for now, 24 our complete statement is before you. This has a lot 25 of effect on us here with the Ridgecrest Corral, but 58 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 it's a nationwide crisis we have right now. 2 Are there any questions or comments that 3 you want me to specifically take back to Mike other 4 than the ones you have been giving? 5 MR. WALDHEIM: Save our access to public 6 lands. Ed Waldheim. 7 I talked to Mike at the El Mirage open 8 house. We cannot forget about the public. It seems 9 like the public is getting the short end of the stick 10 every single time. And enough is enough. And so when 11 all these applications come in -- and I know 12 Schwarzenegger has been working on trying to ease up 13 the regulations so we can get a shovel in the ground. 14 And Cal Fish and Game needs to be involved to make 15 sure it happens. Like here in Canteel, they were now 16 fighting and holding us up for seven months not 17 letting us work on a private property alfalfa field 18 that has sludge on it. They want mitigation. 19 Insanity. Absolute insanity. 20 So Mike needs to take a real strong 21 position that, yes, we will work with you, but the 22 public access to our lands needs to be preserved. And 23 I think there is not one of you in this room that will 24 disagree with me on that. So he needs to get a real 25 strong message: Remember us, the public. Right, Ron? 59 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MEMBER SCHILLER: Hear, hear. Right. 2 MR. SELLARD: Michael Sellard. Could 3 you give us kind of an overview of what the executive 4 order -- approximately what it's going to say. 5 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN: The statewide one? 6 We were not sure on that. It has to do with involving 7 multiple agencies, and I think it's going to revise 8 previous goals set for renewable energy. But at least 9 the portions that we know have not been made public. 10 MR. NOSALA: Wayne Nosala. What we just 11 touched on, on this Canteel project, US Fish and 12 Wildlife Service and Fish and Game were requesting 13 some ridiculous mitigation compensation properties for 14 a private property project. And the question was 15 raised, Who oversees Department of Fish and Game. And 16 she said the governor does. So we need to send a 17 message to the governor asking him to loosen up some 18 of the really super tight restrictions that some of 19 the renewable projects on private property that 20 affects our access to other properties elsewhere as a 21 result of mitigation. 22 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN: I will bring that 23 back. 24 MR. STEWART: Go back and clarify the 25 Bono -- the McKeon Boxer Wilderness Proposal. What 60 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 was the acreage you said that included? 2 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN: 430,000. That's 3 not all BLM. The large portion of it is Forest 4 Service, but we have this one large area and a couple 5 of small ones. 6 MR. STEWART: So it is 430,000 acres. I 7 thought you said something different. 8 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN: Yes. 9 MEMBER BANIS: The National Landscape 10 Conservation System proposal was developed with the 11 strong association of special interest groups and 12 their participation. Recent studies and reports have 13 come out criticizing the development of that program 14 and how it cozied up to special interest groups in 15 doing so. 16 The general public, as you know, through 17 the last decade has become increasingly frustrated 18 with the role the special interest groups are playing 19 in today's government system. Individual members of 20 the public don't have the same kind of access that the 21 special interest groups do. It's hard words for me to 22 say here with the body of colleagues, most of which 23 are representatives of special interest groups. But 24 this body is at least here together in the same room 25 discussing issues, whereas the criticism that I have 61 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 recently read on the development of that landscape 2 system proposal was that it was done in a vacuum and 3 that this might jeopardize its passage. 4 Is that any -- one of the reasons why it 5 might be pulled out of the Omnibus Bill is to have 6 that considered separately? I would like to see it 7 pulled from the Omnibus Bill so we can get right to 8 the heart of how this bill was crafted and who was 9 allowed at the table and who was not. Thank you. 10 MEMBER HUND: Did you want to respond? 11 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN: No, go ahead. 12 MEMBER HUND: I just have to -- feel I 13 need to share a little bit different point of view 14 than Randy's on that legislation. 15 I worked as an advocate for the National 16 Landscape Conservation System representing the 17 Wilderness Society for more than two years. And I 18 think that there is in some instances a lack of 19 understanding of just exactly what that legislation 20 would do and what its implications are. And I do 21 think it's a good bill and I hope that further 22 discussions with the US Chamber of Commerce will take 23 place and ultimately they will support it. 24 The reason I feel that way is because these 25 areas would essentially be managed the same way that 62 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 they are being managed right now. That would not 2 change. But what this legislation would do is it 3 would make permanent the BLM's system of conservation 4 lands. And I know we have a range of opinions on 5 this, but I just want to share some of the potential 6 benefits of that very briefly, or one of the biggest 7 benefits. 8 And that is that recognition of the system 9 and giving it permanence would enable the BLM 10 ultimately to have a better chance of getting 11 permanent support funding for the management of the 12 system, which would benefit all of the units within 13 the system. 14 So -- and again, what it really does is it 15 just codifies something that only exists 16 administratively right now, but it doesn't change the 17 underlying management of the system, including the 18 development of management plans which guide the way 19 these units are operated and maintained. Thank you. 20 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Patrick. 21 MEMBER GUNN: Patrick Lloyd Gunn. I 22 just wanted to make a comment about the renewable 23 energy for you to take back to the director of the 24 BLM. And this paper is from -- it's put out by 25 Department of the Interior. In 2002 California 63 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 established their Renewable Portfolio Standard Program 2 requiring an annual 1 percent increase in renewable 3 energy with the goal of increasing the percentage of 4 electrical generation from renewable energy to 20 5 percent by 2017. 6 And a lot of groups quote this as our rush 7 to use many -- up to a million acres of desert land 8 for solar and wind. But this also goes on to state 9 that to reach that 20 percent goal by -- that we are 10 on track to reach that 20 percent goal by 2010. And 11 also DWP has lately stated that we are on track to 12 meet the 20 percent by 2010. That's Department of 13 Water and Power, David Nahai, chief executive of 14 Department of Water and Power. 15 So we are on track to reach these goals 16 without any damage to the flora and fauna of the 17 Mojave Desert. And I hope people will remember that 18 and not rush to take many thousands of acres of desert 19 land from the public. 20 MR. SELLARD: Michael Sellard. 21 I was at that meeting at Canteel Beacon 22 plant with CEC, and I was really appalled at Fish and 23 Game. I saw a very responsible report of the power 24 and light company to the biology of the area. Very 25 responsible company. I think they did an excellent 64 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 job in their presentation. I was very disappointed 2 with Fish and Game. I think CEC stated that we are at 3 9 percent of our energy level. In other words, we are 4 really way behind. Thank you. 5 MEMBER ACUNA: Just to bounce off on the 6 renewables. I concur with the statement just made, 7 that some utilities are closer to meeting that 8 renewable goal. Perhaps L.A. Department of Water is 9 there. But the other utilities are not. 10 MEMBER GUNN: The other paper I read 11 from was from the Department of Interior, BLM. 12 MEMBER ACUNA: I have a question for 13 Kristin. You mentioned in the Bono Wilderness Bill 14 some discussion about energy corridors, federal energy 15 corridors. What was the main thought on that? Are 16 they going to create additional areas with no 17 opportunity for energy corridors, or they were going 18 to consider that? 19 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN: Recently there were 20 boundary changes that were tweaked because of some 21 wilderness boundaries were nearby some proposed energy 22 corridors. They were minor, but yet enough to give 23 some room so there were opportunities for those 24 corridors to go in. We have some specific maps, if 25 you are interested -- I can show you later on; I don't 65 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 have them here with me -- where they made these 2 tweaks. But they were accepted in and that's what is 3 part of the bill in the Senate now. 4 MEMBER ACUNA: One last question. And 5 thank you, Kristin. 6 Geary, you mentioned that there would be a 7 benefit to the Landscape Bill, portions of the bill 8 for BLM in that they would have some permanency in 9 funding. How is that different than today? I mean, 10 is the government going to ante up additional funds 11 just like that so the BLM can do more work? 12 MEMBER HUND: Well, what it is there 13 is a system of, say, National Monuments and National 14 Conservation Areas right now that the BLM has the 15 responsibility for managing. And right now there are 16 funds that are dedicated to the management of those 17 areas and recognition that they have the system to 18 manage. But this system right now is only on paper. 19 It was developed administratively during the -- one of 20 the previous administrations, during the Clinton 21 administration. 22 So what making the system permanent will do 23 is help to ensure that those funds continue to be 24 authorized, but also in the future, when hopefully our 25 economy is better and there are opportunities for the 66 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 BLM to seek funding for land management, that gives 2 them a stronger case because they are saying that they 3 are managing this system of conservation areas that is 4 in a sense a parallel to the National Park Service 5 system, although they are managed differently because 6 of the BLM's mission and mandate and also because of 7 what the system was envisioned to be, less developed 8 areas, less Park Service-like, with a lot of control 9 and delineated facilities, but more dispersed camping 10 and use. Basically how they are being managed right 11 now. But it formally recognizes the BLM has this very 12 awesome responsibility and mandate. And it ensures 13 that, one, they continue to receive that funding; and 14 two, that there are opportunities to get more funding 15 which can benefit all the different interests on this 16 body and also out in the audience. 17 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: Kristin, maybe you 18 know the answer to this. 19 I understand that in this current 20 administration there were some back-door moves 21 contemplated to declare or to promote wilderness 22 legislation but exempt the military. Do we know if 23 that's the case in any legislation coming down? 24 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN: I don't know anything 25 about it. 67 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: I have not heard 2 that particular rumor. 3 MEMBER HUND: I wanted to comment 4 further on the accommodations that were made in the 5 Riverside County bill for energy corridors, being one 6 of the persons that helped develop that legislation 7 and has continued to work on it throughout the 8 process. 9 And just to give a specific example, there 10 was a proposed addition to the Oracopia Mountains 11 Wilderness Area on the north side south of Interstate 12 10. And it was identified that a portion of it could 13 potentially affect future energy corridor development 14 in that location. So the boundaries were adjusted 15 southward to ensure that that designation would not 16 interfere with -- it's already an established energy 17 corridor, but they were anticipating future expansion 18 or additional facilities within that corridor that 19 could have been affected. 20 MR. WALDHEIM: Kristin, you said 21 Amargosa River Scenic. Did the BLM make sure that we 22 retained the access to the Amargosa River for the 23 Sperry Wash for recreational purposes from Dumont 24 Dunes? That is what our agreement was, and I sure 25 hope to God that whatever you supported, you didn't 68 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 change that. 2 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Yes, the crossing to 3 get to Dumont Dunes is not -- 4 MR. WALDHEIM: And the confluence of 5 Sperry Wash. Not only the crossing. Sperry Wash is 6 one thing, and just like Caltrans got the exception 7 from the north, we want to make sure that from 8 confluence of Sperry Wash down Amargosa River to cross 9 the Dumont Dunes is recreation, not just wild and 10 scenic. I want to make sure that BLM didn't sell us 11 out on that, please, because that was our agreement 12 with McKeon's bill and talking with Bob Howard. 13 That's the way we had it. Now she is scaring me -- 14 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: When you use the 15 word BLM selling us out, I really don't appreciate 16 that. Because -- 17 MR. WALDHEIM: I apologize. 18 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Let me explain, 19 maybe the process how BLM actually provides 20 information to a senator or a congressman. Their aide 21 comes to us and asks us for all the information we can 22 give them about public uses and uses we have 23 authorized on the public lands in any of the areas 24 that they are studying. BLM actually does not make 25 any recommendations one way or the other to a 69 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 congressman or a senator regarding whether an area 2 should be considered for wilderness designation or 3 not. All we do is provide information about how we 4 have been administering the public lands, what 5 authorizations we have issued in the past, mining 6 claims, transmission line corridors, what types of 7 public uses are typically enjoyed on those public 8 lands. We don't -- we are not allowed -- 9 MR. WALDHEIM: Kristin said the BLM 10 supported it. 11 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN: We did in 12 testimony. That's the one time that we -- 13 MR. WALDHEIM: That's the one difference 14 between providing information and supporting. I want 15 to make sure that you provided what we as the TRT 16 worked out. 17 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: What the BLM through 18 the Department of Interior does is have a speaker at a 19 congressional hearing when the committee reviews that 20 bill and the Department of Interior issues a public 21 statement about the proposed legislation. That's how 22 BLM either supports or does not support proposed 23 legislation. It's through the public hearing at the 24 committee hearing, and it becomes part of the public 25 record. 70 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MR. WALDHEIM: I want to make sure, 2 please, make sure that that is in there, if you could 3 make sure to follow up on that. If not, Ron Schiller 4 and the rest of us have to get together with McKeon 5 and make sure it's in the bill. 6 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN: It would be 7 appropriate for you to talk to McKeon because it's 8 their bill. The only comment we have made is in that 9 testimony, so I would think it would be more 10 appropriate for you to go back to them, being that we 11 don't negotiate on testimony with them -- or on a 12 bill, that is, with them. 13 MEMBER SCHILLER: One thing I would say 14 to Ed and a question to you, Kristin, is you mentioned 15 the Boxer McKeon bill introduced in May. Those bills 16 have changed. They are not what they were in May. 17 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN: There are 18 amendments made to them. 19 MEMBER SCHILLER: Yes, and not to the 20 advantage of motorized access. 21 Secondly, the S-3069 passed committee with 22 amendments. It's terribly difficult for us to get the 23 new language of those bills. Senator Boxer's staff 24 has promised me on three occasions to get that new 25 language to me within the week. And it's been months 71 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 ago since the last amendment. 2 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN: We can give you the 3 language. 4 MEMBER SCHILLER: Of the latest? 5 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN: Of what passed. 6 MEMBER SCHILLER: And that differs from 7 HR-6156, which is McKeon's counterpart to that bill, 8 which now I have been unable to get the amendments 9 from his office for over a month now. I did finally 10 get a copy from my congressman of the Senate bill, 11 which is completely amended. I mean, completely 12 stricken and rewritten. So when you say you support 13 the bill as it was introduced in April or May, excuse 14 me, May 22nd, that tells me you don't know what is in 15 the new bill. How could you continue to support it? 16 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN: When we supported 17 it in testimony, the bill as it was at that point. So 18 I will give you my information, and why don't you call 19 me next week and we can talk about it and I can give 20 you what we have. 21 MEMBER SCHILLER: Okay? Do you have a 22 card because I can't get your number on the Web site. 23 MS. MINSTER-HOGGAN: I will give it to 24 you. 25 MEMBER HUND: Just very briefly for Ron 72 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 and others -- and I don't know that it's necessarily 2 the very latest version has been posted or not, but 3 you may or may not know it. There is a site if you 4 Google just the word "Thomas" on Google, that gets you 5 to the Library of Congress and you can search by bill 6 number. 7 MEMBER SCHILLER: I have already done 8 that for weeks. 9 MEMBER HUND: I just wanted to tell you, 10 generally in my experience, I have been able to pull 11 up the most recent version of the bill, but not 12 always. I trust that you were unable to, but I just 13 wanted folks on the DAC and in the public to know that 14 that's a resource if you are trying to get a copy of a 15 bill. 16 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Thank you, Kristin, for 17 your report. And now we go to District Manager's 18 report. 19 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Okay. Ed, I want to 20 see if I can find out -- it's Spitzer Trail? 21 MR. WALDHEIM: Sperry Wash. Sperry Wash 22 is the beginning in the north. It's a confluence with 23 the Amargosa River. It comes down and crosses Dumont 24 Dunes and ends up across the highway. That's the 25 portion that we want to make sure is for recreation, 73 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 not for wild and scenic. 2 MR. BORCHARD: I will see what I can 3 find out. 4 MR. WALDHEIM: That was our agreement 5 with Ron Schiller, with all Dumont Dunes TRT. It's in 6 our management plan to manage as such, and we want to 7 make sure we preserve that. And I apologize again for 8 the "sellout." It was a slip of the tongue, but I 9 hate surprises. I totally hate surprises. 10 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Okay. Thank you. 11 I guess first of all, I would like to 12 personally welcome Lloyd Gunn and Jim Fitzpatrick to 13 their first DAC meeting. As you can see, we often 14 have lively discussions here and share a broad 15 spectrum of points of view, which is exactly what we 16 want to have happen at these meetings and we encourage 17 it. 18 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: Thank you. 19 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: I would also like to 20 express my personal appreciation to Richard for last 21 night's barbecue and he set the bar pretty high. And 22 what I think I will do with the request to have more 23 of our BLM field office employees in the hosting 24 office present, I think maybe for our next meeting I'm 25 going to lead the charge and see if I can get a few 74 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 BLM employees to join me personally in hosting our 2 next barbecue. 3 MEMBER RUDNICK: So we have some 4 competition? 5 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: The master griller. 6 MEMBER RUDNICK: We can have a menudo 7 cookoff. 8 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: I guess, thirdly, I 9 would like to congratulate our members who are -- that 10 are here today at our last DAC meeting and those that 11 aren't here today, for their long years of service to 12 the California Desert Conservation Area and express my 13 appreciation to Ron Schiller and Dave Charlton in 14 their last meeting, as well as two folks that were not 15 able to come today, Bill Presch and Tom Davis, for 16 your service to our community in helping craft wise 17 decisions and maintain public access to the desert is 18 greatly appreciated. Later on we will be presenting 19 you with a small token of our appreciation. 20 I don't want to steal the thunder of some 21 of our more detailed presentations on the agenda, so 22 I'm going to touch on a few points from the 20,000- 23 foot-elevation viewpoint, and then some other folks 24 will give you some specific presentations, subject 25 presentations. 75 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 So I guess maybe as I go through this and 2 you think about questions, I encourage you if the 3 agenda item is a specific agenda item such as 4 renewable energy, maybe it would be best to hold any 5 thoughts you have based on my 20,000-foot-elevation 6 remarks for maybe that detailed discussion later on in 7 the agenda. 8 The first example is renewable energy. 9 There is a presentation later by our district program 10 manager on that subject. But this is just my high- 11 point view. 12 As Ed mentioned, it's on the Obama 13 administration's mind and I think we won't anticipate 14 any surprises there. We all know there is interest 15 there and strong support for continuing development of 16 the program. However, the Wall Street meltdown has 17 affected all of us personally as well as -- I suggest 18 its effect on individual project applicants such as 19 Goldman Sachs may influence our overall number of 20 applications we are processing in the future. Cash is 21 going to be more difficult to come by. The cost of 22 capital to build a project will increase, and this may 23 make some of the plays unprofitable. And I anticipate 24 it will reduce the overall number of project 25 applications we have in the future. 76 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 Kristin mentioned an executive order by the 2 governor being considered, as well as a Memorandum of 3 Understanding. I refer to this in my office as the 4 secret MOU because I heard of its existence from 5 sources outside my own agency. The MOU that we are 6 looking at and considering moving forward with would 7 be between the BLM and the Cal Fish and Game and the 8 California Energy Commission as well as the Fish and 9 Wildlife Service. And it would establish something 10 called the California Renewable Energy Action Team or 11 CREATEAM. That means we could call the members of it 12 if you add i-n-s to the end "Creatins." 13 The overall objectives of this group, as 14 was outlined in the draft MOU, are to develop a 15 conservation strategy to protect and conserve natural 16 resources in the California District Conservation Area 17 while allowing solar and wind projects to be built. 18 And it's expected that this group would complete their 19 charge in two and a half years. 20 This group would develop a multispecies 21 conservation strategy that would facilitate Endangered 22 Species Act and California Endangered Species Act. It 23 would ensure public involvement by hosting stakeholder 24 meetings and reviews of their proposed work product. 25 It would reduce timelines for siting development, 77 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 permitting and construction of renewable energy 2 projects, and it would establish best management 3 practices to guide siting and to minimize 4 environmental impacts. 5 As a forecast for what we can expect to see 6 from the Obama administration, I think all of you are 7 aware we have nominations open now for five vacant DAC 8 seats. I think that nomination period closes on the 9 30th of November -- am I right, David? 10 MR. BRIERY: First of December. 11 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: First of December. 12 We will be -- BLM will be forwarding our 13 recommendations to our Washington office and to the 14 Department of Interior at some point in December. I 15 suspect because at that timeframe the actual 16 selections and approval of DAC members will be 17 completed by the Obama administration. 18 Currently BLM employees are working with 19 the Obama transition team attempting to tell them how 20 to spell BLM and preparing lots of briefing materials. 21 So we are all kind of working together in a great 22 education process for these folks so they can make 23 wise appointments that will help us and support the 24 BLM mission. 25 Currently we don't anticipate any 78 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 surprises. I think the objectives are fairly 2 transparent out there right now. One of the things we 3 don't have on the agenda that I will briefly talk 4 about is an update on the border. The fence 5 construction is moving quickly. We expect all of the 6 California segments to be completed by December 30th 7 with the exception of a fence segment that's adjacent 8 to the Otay wilderness area. I expect the Otay is 9 extremely mountainous, very challenging territory to 10 build anything. And because of this, they have had to 11 do some redesign work. We expected the redesign to be 12 completed this week and expect construction to begin 13 in January. 14 Another thing we are working on the border 15 is mitigation funding for impacts with the 16 infrastructure construction. Fifty million dollars 17 has been identified as the need to mitigate those 18 impacts, primarily impacts to T and E species. DOI 19 agencies, BLM, Fish and Wildlife Service are 20 collaborating across the three states to submit their 21 mitigation plan. And BLM California's play, we are 22 seeking long-term funding in the amount of 1 million 23 dollars per year for our participation in the 24 mitigation. And that would primarily be mitigation 25 and monitoring. I'm sure we would be involved with 79 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 any acquisition of habitat to offset impacts since we 2 are kind of -- have a lot of experience and capability 3 in that regard. 4 Another issue along the border is violence, 5 and I'm sure you are all aware that the chief of 6 police in Nogales was murdered about two and a half 7 weeks ago. This does have the potential -- this 8 violence along the border does have the potential to 9 affect public access. It's just become a dangerous 10 place. It affects the way we conduct our operations 11 and the care we take in having our employees work in 12 the border area that we actually consider the border 13 area 100 miles north of the border. 14 We expect the Obama administration to focus 15 primarily on mitigation and monitoring as their 16 primary interest associated with the border 17 infrastructure. Currently we have an assessment going 18 on by Don Maruska and Company, who is developing 19 models for our DAC subgroups we call TRT's, look at 20 our charter to determine their subgroups. The 21 objectives of Don Maruska's assessment and report will 22 be to make sure BLM is complying with the Federal 23 Advisory Committee Act rules to develop an appropriate 24 set of stakeholder organizations to serve the needs of 25 the California Desert Management; to enhance working 80 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 relationships between user interests and BLM field 2 staff; to ensure that BLM has the right tools for the 3 job, the structure, the roles, the operating 4 principles that fit the needs of the specific 5 subgroups; to apply best management practices and 6 teamwork in decision making processes and delegation 7 in pursuit of these goals; and try and optimize our 8 use of your time as volunteers who serve on our -- 9 your voluntary participation and others who serve on 10 our subgroups; and to establish a model for working 11 subcommittees, California statewide. 12 I would also like to update you briefly on 13 our BLM staffing changes that have occurred since we 14 last met. BLM has decided to raise the bar on our 15 abandoned mine lands program and to do that we have 16 established a district AML coordinator position. And 17 I have moved our field manager from Needles, Sterling 18 White, into that position primarily because of his 19 national office experience and the field experience 20 with the program and his ability to aggressively lead 21 our field offices in implementing our brand-new 22 district AML strategy. 23 Most recently he led the -- supported the 24 DMG in their sponsorship of a "Fix a Shaft Today 25 (Fast)" meeting on November 6. It was a great success 81 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 at Barstow. Over 80 people attended that workshop 2 from California agencies. Parks Service, Forest 3 Service was there. County governments, military, as 4 well as some vendors and contractors who do work for 5 the agencies on the AML. 6 MEMBER SHUMWAY: What is DGM? 7 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Desert Managers 8 Group. Both ends of the spectrum were discussed at 9 this meeting, the need to protect the public from AML 10 hazards, while at the same time protecting wildlife 11 habitat that some of our shafts and adits present to 12 wildlife, while at the same time meeting our 13 regulatory requirements. 14 We are working to increase our realty 15 specialist staff since they are critical with our 16 renewable energy workload. And we have two people, 17 existing BLM employees, that are going to attend or 18 are attending currently a BLM land school, one from 19 the El Centro office and one from the Barstow office. 20 We are also recruiting new specialists. 21 I'm happy to announce the selection of the Needles 22 field manager, Rusty Lee, the assistant Monument 23 manager from the Grand Staircase-Escalante National 24 Monument in Utah has graciously accepted our offer to 25 come lead our team at Needles. He has 12 years 82 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 experience with the BLM in Tonopah, Winnemucca and 2 Escalante. He also has four years of experience with 3 the Forest Service in two Utah offices. He is a 4 graduate of the US Navel Academy in Annapolis and 5 holds an engineering mining degree from Colorado 6 Schools of Mines. 7 We are recruiting the resources division 8 chief for the Ridgecrest field office. We lost a very 9 good employee when Dave Shausted (as pronounced) went 10 to Denver, Colorado, so we are aggressively pursuing a 11 quality replacement. 12 We have hired 18 new law enforcement 13 rangers in 2008 at the CDD. And right now the 14 national office is considering a proposal to establish 15 pilot renewable energy offices at CDD. We are making 16 a play. We have thrown our hat in the ring to be one 17 of the locations for pilot offices. 18 As Kristin mentioned recently, the GAO 19 issued a report on our wild horse management dilemma 20 that the BLM faces across the West. And the fact is 21 that the board meeting is meeting on Monday. The 22 numbers of animals removed have greatly exceeded our 23 ability to adopt animals out, and our population that 24 have been short- and long-term holding have increased 25 dramatically over the last two years and the cost of 83 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 caring for the animals has increased dramatically. 2 In 2000, we spent about 7 million a year 3 caring for animals that we are holding onto that we 4 removed from the range. In 2007 that number had 5 swelled to 21 million and 2008, short- and long-term 6 care costs consumed 74 percent of our Wild Horse and 7 Burro Management budget. 8 BLM has limited options of dealing with 9 unadoptable animals. The GAO report that was recently 10 released recognized our limited options. And also 11 recognized that the 1978 amendment to the Wild Horse 12 and Burro Act gave BLM the authority to either sell 13 horses without limitation that have been passed over 14 for adoption at least three times. We also have the 15 authority in this law, which we have never exercised, 16 to -- I don't know if I can pronounce this word -- 17 euthanize animals. The GAO report recommends that BLM 18 initiate discussions with Congress on ideas for how to 19 address our current dilemma. And I emphasize that no 20 decisions have been made and this topic is going to be 21 one of the primary topics discussed at the meeting 22 this weekend in Reno. 23 That's all I have. Any questions? 24 MEMBER HOLIDAY: Yeah, I have -- I just 25 have a comment on the development of the subcommittee. 84 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 I would strongly encourage the BLM to at least have a 2 subcommittee for any location that has user fees. And 3 my point there is that I want to see that the user 4 fees that are dictated are dedicated to a given area. 5 We have visibility -- the public has visibility over 6 those budgets in great detail. It's the visitors' 7 money that's going into those accounts, and those 8 visitors need to have visibility of those 9 expenditures. So I think that right now I know we 10 have a TRT for Dumont Dunes, but any other places, 11 possibly El Mirage or any of these places that have 12 dedicated fees, need to have one of these 13 subcommittees of the DAC set up. 14 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Okay. 15 MEMBER SCHILLER: I have two questions. 16 You mentioned the cost of the Wild Horse and Burro 17 program, talking about -- I don't remember the figure 18 you said, but the cost of maintaining those 19 unadoptable animals. Does that cost -- is that 20 inclusive of the cost that we pay the private ranches 21 and -- that is included in that figure? 22 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Yes. I think the 23 current contract price, it's a bid process where 24 individuals bid to provide long-term care. And I 25 think the current price bid is about $1.25 a day. 85 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MEMBER SCHILLER: Per animal. It's 2 cheaper than long-term health insurance for us. 3 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Start e-mailing on that 4 one. 5 MEMBER SCHILLER: Yeah, it seems like a 6 tremendous amount of money. And when you said 7 "euthanize," does that mean other than -- does that 8 mean you can allow -- you are allowed to put them down 9 in the area that they exist? In other words -- 10 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Yes, I think just 11 the authority is there in the law that allows it. 12 There is no specific -- I don't think BLM has a policy 13 on how it's going to be applied because it hasn't been 14 used. 15 MEMBER SCHILLER: I guess for the record 16 as a member of the DAC, I have always been frustrated 17 with that. In fact, I am an equestrian user. I have 18 several of the adopted horses myself, one that I ride 19 myself. But I think it's just a terrible waste to 20 continue to have these ornery, unadoptable, worthless 21 animals to have to continually perpetuate their 22 existence at that exorbitant cost. And I personally 23 believe it should be dealt with as a public asset. 24 We've got to get dog food and cat food and animal food 25 from someplace, and if somebody in another country 86 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 wants to eat them like any other game animal, I don't 2 see why the BLM shouldn't turn them in to at least 3 some cash return for them. 4 I know I'm going to get beat up for saying 5 that, because I have been constantly, including from 6 within my own family. But you've got to look at 7 something somewhere and determine what you can afford. 8 The second question or at least a comment I 9 have is on the abandoned mine lands. One of the 10 concerns I have had is that there doesn't seem to be 11 any public process or notification of what actions 12 that the BLM is going to take on any particular adit 13 or shaft, and I would just like to point out that some 14 of those adits are very important to some of the gem 15 and mineral collecting. There is some significant 16 mineral specimens that the public can collect in 17 those. 18 Now, I know that there is a hazard. I know 19 that that's always been claimed that, well, people get 20 in there and get hurt. I have no problem personally 21 with a shaft. I don't know how we survived out here 22 in the desert for so long with all these holes. But 23 now we have these people coming up that don't seem to 24 have any sense, falling down the holes. I can 25 understand that, but we have other activities on our 87 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 public lands that are a hazard if no appropriate 2 precautions are taken. Motorcycles, mountain 3 climbing, rock climbing, mountaineering where we have 4 safety considerations. And I just would like there to 5 be some mechanism for the public to make comments on 6 which adit you are considering closing or where you 7 are wanting to close off access to some of the areas 8 around Randsburg that you mentioned for the arsenic. 9 That includes areas where we have picked up agates and 10 other type of workable material in the past. 11 And so if you made something available for 12 the public to provide the comments on, I would 13 certainly appreciate it, knowing that there is a 14 certain hazard if you are not careful. But at least 15 consider some of these particular areas where some of 16 these specimens are important to collectors. I know 17 that's not a popular idea, either. 18 CHAIRMAN MABEN: I would like to 19 segueway off of that. Perhaps we need like an 20 adopt-an-adit program for mineral societies. They 21 would have to gate and maintain the adit and be 22 properly trained to go in them. 23 MEMBER SCHILLER: There is an idea. 24 MR. MATTHEWS: Then we have to get the 25 engineers in. 88 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MEMBER SCHILLER: We have back gates on 2 a lot of them, so if you could have access to those, 3 although I don't know -- 4 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Would that be a 5 seven-step process to adopt an adit with AA? 6 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Just watch out for A- 7 step. 8 MEMBER BANIS: I would like to tee off 9 what Ron said. 10 I don't know how many of you have actually 11 read the Inspector General's report from July. It 12 started out with the phrase that they were "gravely 13 concerned" about the condition of these lands and the 14 impacts that the mining has had on them. And when you 15 continue to read it, you just get the sense that they 16 are really not from around here. 17 I have to apologize for some of the members 18 of the public who were specifically cited in that 19 report, and I wish I could have pulled it up to read 20 from it. But the Web site, DOI Web site is down. 21 Anyway, for example, the one who pulled the fence 22 aside, drove his truck to the edge and lowered himself 23 down into the adit with a cable or chain off his 24 bumper and the chain snapped and he fell -- those -- I 25 apologize, these are the people who are bringing these 89 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 problems to the front. 2 But I don't think those are the real 3 priority problems. The real priority problems are the 4 ones where people are unintentionally and accidentally 5 falling in, particularly on the ones right adjacent to 6 roads and trails. This report put forth a number of 7 suggestions and ideas for how this problem can be 8 addressed. It to me looked like, as I heard others of 9 my colleagues say, an attempt to sanitize the desert. 10 Remarkable if you go through and read all the steps 11 proposing to be done. It's really over the top, in my 12 opinion. 13 But we all know that not every hole is ever 14 going to get filled. There is no way. Money just is 15 never, ever going to be there. But there will be 16 money for filling holes. And I would like to see that 17 the priorities for those holes be the ones closest to 18 the full road drive trails and the motorcycle trails, 19 the ones that are really close. 20 I was disappointed how they dragged in the 21 aspects of the historic cabin programs into it. I 22 think that's an entirely separate issue. But I guess 23 I would like to -- I'm more, as Ron says, I'm more and 24 more concerned about the priority we would have. 25 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: One of 90 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 prioritization criteria in our district strategy is 2 proximity to recreational use. High on the list of 3 the criteria. We have established criteria for 4 prioritizing what places to address first, and I'm not 5 talking about mineral collection; I'm talking about 6 schools and motorized travel use. 7 MEMBER BANIS: Thank you. 8 MEMBER SCHILLER: It is the recreational 9 occurrences. 10 CHAIRMAN MABEN: We have some folks in 11 the audience, and we are getting close to breaks. So 12 please -- 13 MR. WALDHEIM: Follow up with 14 Mr. Holiday's comment about the responsibility, 15 transparency of the fees that are being charged. 16 Steve, I would like to see if there is a way that you 17 could come up from your office on a standard approach 18 to this. Randy, myself, Ron on the Dumont Dunes TRT, 19 when we go, we get financial reports. We get a 20 budget. We see what have we spent to date to see how 21 things are going, but sometimes it's one form, 22 sometimes it's a different form. 23 In El Mirage at the last meeting before 24 Roxie left, I asked her, Roxie, would you please have 25 your staff prepare for us a budget of how you intend 91 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 on spending the fee from El Mirage. Where are we to 2 date, and what are the collections you have done and 3 what are the priorities? How are we going to spend 4 this so it's an open transparency? 5 It was not forthcoming because it's brand 6 new and I can understand that. The Rands, if we start 7 with the fee, I agree with you 100 percent, this DAC 8 and I appreciate the DAC, you created Dumont Dunes 9 because we do not have a group that is constantly 10 meeting, so Dumont Dunes TRT was created. 11 The Friends of El Mirage have been meeting 12 every month now for the last 12 years, every month 13 they meet. And I appreciate you giving us the support 14 that we could act as a quasi-TRT because it's open to 15 the public. Anybody could come. Jawbone Station, the 16 same thing. For the last 15 years we have been 17 meeting and everyone from boards of supervisors -- Don 18 Maben is a charter member of the group, we meet and we 19 discuss the issues. 20 But Steve, I think the district needs to 21 have some format that -- a plate that you say, okay if 22 you have a fee, this is what I would like you to 23 follow up. No matter what group you are in, bring it 24 like this so we have it. We don't really have a 25 standard thing where it totally shows the transparency 92 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 and at one point where the public can make input on 2 how you want to spend these funds. 3 I'm a little concerned that some of the 4 funds -- oh, we have this money, let's go spend it. 5 Well, none of us have agreed to any of the ways the 6 monies are being spent, especially of the fees. And 7 Wayne Nosala, because he is on the e-mail and on the 8 Web sites, he gets the brunt of the complaints: What 9 are you doing, both in El Mirage and over up here? 10 Are you crazy? And it's very hard for him to be able 11 to answer it because we don't have all the facts. 12 So the transparency thing that Mr. Holiday 13 brought up is a very good point and I appreciate you 14 doing that. And I think for any place you in the 15 desert have a fee, let's come up with standard forms 16 so no matter what group is working on it and providing 17 the input from the public, that we can follow that 18 process very easily and put on the Web sites and -- 19 just put it on the Web sites, period. That's cool. 20 Thank you. 21 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: Clarification 22 question. Do those fees stay in the desert in the 23 park, or do they go back to Washington? 24 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: No, they stay right 25 in the recreation area where they are generated. 93 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 CHAIR MABEN: Question over here. 2 MR. LATTIMER: John Lattimer. I have a 3 question about horses and stuff like that. Why can't 4 we introduce them someplace else? 5 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Well, there is no 6 place else. The reason we remove horses from the 7 range is for several folds: To protect the condition 8 of the land, the condition of the resource, the 9 condition of the wildlife habitat. It provides for 10 other species that depend on that habitat in that 11 location. Also, we do it to protect the health of the 12 herd that's there that we are trying to maintain. 13 That herd and that management area has a population 14 that's set for it that the BLM believes is an amount 15 that will maintain its integrity and viability and 16 genetic health. And that herd shares that land with 17 other wildlife, other plants and other uses such as in 18 some cases livestock raising. 19 And all the land that BLM manages is 20 planned out. And allocation of the forage, the 21 wildlife, and the horses and other authorized uses 22 depend on there is all allocated. So we don't have 23 any other place to put them. That's why we do 24 long-term holding facilities on privately-owned land 25 because those folks can manage their land. And that 94 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 land can withstand and host those animals and provide 2 a healthy environment for them. 3 MR. DUNLOP: Chris Dunlop. Maybe 4 Mr. Schiller can help on this. Has there been any 5 promotion of the adopting of these wild horses or 6 maybe rental from the facility, just to -- if someone 7 wanted to ride a horse and take it around or some sort 8 of fee to offset the costs? 9 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: We have a very 10 active adoption program. And actually, California has 11 the multiple year, most long-term success in adopting 12 out animals throughout the U.S. California is the 13 leader in BLM's nationwide adoption program. So we 14 have a very extensive, very well-publicized, very 15 well-marketed adoption program. However, in this past 16 year what we have seen is due to the economy and the 17 price of hay tripling from one year to the next, our 18 adoption rates have fallen. 19 MR. DUNLOP: I never knew about the 20 program. That's why I was asking. 21 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Those people are 22 actually abandoning horses from the county because 23 they can't afford to feed them. 24 MR. DUNLOP: Is that promoted in 25 equestrian magazines or local newspapers or how? 95 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MR. SCHILLER: Everywhere. 2 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: We do magazines, 3 radio spots, newspapers advertisements, we use most 4 media opportunities. We have the nonprofit groups 5 that assist us. One of our successful programs is the 6 Extreme Mustang Program where we have a training 7 program. Horse trainers volunteer to take animals for 8 a set period of time -- is it 100 days, Steve? -- and 9 they train the animals. And it's a little bit like 10 Extreme Makeover. We have Extreme Mustang Makeover 11 program and that's a great publicity tool for us. And 12 it's amazing what these trainers can do for these 13 animals. 14 MEMBER HUND: Maybe a reality program 15 where we get revenue. 16 MEMBER ACUNA: One quick question. I 17 realize there is a sensitivity for keeping these 18 animals and not putting them down. But the question 19 here is if it's 21 million dollars and if we were to 20 get rid of the ornery ones that nobody wants, could 21 you take that same money and use it for other programs 22 or does it go back to Washington? 23 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: If we could cut our 24 costs of managing the Wild Horse and Burro program, it 25 would go back to the other programs that it was 96 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 redirected from by request from BLM and authorized by 2 Congress about six or seven years ago. I used to 3 administer four other programs in our Washington 4 office that gave blood to the Wild Horse and Burro 5 program through a congressional reprogramming 6 permission. So I assume it would go back to other 7 programs. 8 MEMBER ACUNA: Thank you. 9 MEMBER SCHILLER: I guess -- maybe I'm 10 getting too old. It's interesting to watch the way 11 attitudes change. I recall here locally actually in 12 Randsburg every year we had a barbecue, a burro 13 barbecue, and it was a fundraiser and everybody went. 14 It didn't taste that bad. So now I see everybody has 15 a problem with that, and I just have a problem 16 understanding that. I would say maybe you could have 17 a cook-off challenge between the BLM and Mr. Rudnick 18 and have a barbecue. 19 MR. RUDNICK: Bring my own horses. 20 CHAIRMAN MABEN: One last thing. 21 MEMBER SHUMWAY: Question and comment 22 about abandoned mines. I talked with Sterling White 23 briefly. He called me a month ago or six weeks 24 something like that. And in the past, the BLM has 25 obliterated old prospect areas; some are mines, most 97 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 were not, most were just prospects. But as a 2 geologist in the mineral business, these are all data 3 points. And there were a lot of scams out there, 4 probably still are a lot of scams, but most of these 5 prospects were on a geological feature that had some 6 importance at the time. So they are all data points. 7 And I have nothing against filling up a 8 shaft that's near a trail or something like that. 9 There are lots of examples where you could easily go 10 off. But I do think there has to be some sensitivity 11 about where these are and some baseline study or 12 something that's done for all these things. 13 And also, my second comment is the State of 14 California Geological Survey also has a database. 15 They have been working on this abandoned mine thing 16 for a long time with our Surface Mining and 17 Reclamation Act classification program. So there are 18 databases out there. And I would hate to see BLM 19 reinvent the wheel where they could incorporate known 20 databases for these points. And there is one with the 21 State that has something like 26,000 separate data 22 points. 23 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Thirty-eight. We 24 are aware of it. 25 MEMBER SHUMWAY: Good. As you know, I 98 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 don't like to see secret databases. But the 2 preservation of the physical and chemical nature of 3 these sites is important, especially in our future 4 mineral identification process. Whether we will ever 5 have mines in California is another story, but still 6 geologically they are important databases. 7 CHAIRMAN MABEN: With that, we will take 8 a quick break and resume at 10:45. 9 (Morning break was taken from 10 10:35 to 10:49 a.m.) 11 CHAIRMAN MABEN: We are going to the 12 item on -- under Council reports. We will start with 13 Council Renewable Letter. Geary, you have got the 14 floor. 15 MEMBER HUND: At our last meeting, as a 16 result of I would say unanimous concern about the 17 potential impact of renewable energy projects on the 18 desert, including natural, cultural, scenic, 19 recreational resources, mineral resources, we agreed 20 that we would -- that a couple of the DAC members, 21 including myself, would draft a letter to the BLM 22 addressing our concerns about all of these proposed 23 renewable energy projects. 24 So there is a draft letter in front of you, 25 fellow DAC members, that was also sent out via e-mail 99 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 for your consideration. And if we do make any changes 2 today, my suggestion is that I try to capture those in 3 the form of an edited letter, and then I would send it 4 back out for people to ensure that I was successful in 5 doing that. 6 But I would like to suggest today that we 7 try to adopt a letter with whatever changes the group 8 wants to include, and then I will actually finalize it 9 after the meeting, but circulate it to make sure that 10 I have captured the changes or additions folks might 11 want to make. So hopefully you have had a chance to 12 review the letter, so I will just take comments. 13 MEMBER ACUNA: One question. Thanks for 14 writing this. A nice job. And this is to the BLM. 15 There is some discussion about having some sort of 16 bonding so there could be site restoration after the 17 renewable has ended on that property. Is there some 18 sort of feature for that that the BLM has in place? 19 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Yes, reclamation 20 bonding is a standard requirement; in fact, it's a 21 statutory requirement or a regulatory requirement that 22 BLM actually secures a reclamation bond as part of the 23 issuance of the right-of-way process. 24 MEMBER ACUNA: Thank you. 25 MEMBER HOLIDAY: I have a question also. 100 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 Probably it is at the discretion of the local area, 2 but it seems like as far as each contract goes to 3 everything on public land, they are using the public 4 resources. With sand and gravel, you charge by the 5 ton to remove, or oil or gas leak, you charge by the 6 gallons removed. Shouldn't there be some fee 7 structure associated with the amount of generation 8 from the plant? I know it's not taking a resource out 9 of the system, but it is money that the company is 10 making off that resource. 11 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: When BLM authorizes 12 a use, it follows the laws that Congress has passed 13 regarding that use, and then the regulations that the 14 agency promulgates as how it's going to go about 15 complying with that law. So we follow the laws that 16 Congress passes and the regulations that are developed 17 to comply with that law. And those regulations and 18 laws govern how the public receives benefit from 19 consumptive uses, whether it be oil and gas or 20 minerals, for example. 21 The laws and regulations that apply to 22 renewable energy, specifically solar and wind, at 23 least for solar -- let me just address solar -- tell 24 BLM that the way they will -- the public will be 25 reimbursed for the public land is via a rental of the 101 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 land and has specifically addressed how that rental 2 rate will be calculated. So the laws and regulations 3 did not provide for a royalty such as you would -- the 4 public receives for oil and gas. It simply states 5 that the land will be rented for a set number of 6 years, and how that rental rate will be calculated. 7 MEMBER HOLIDAY: Is that calculation 8 based on the amount of generation or anything for that 9 area, or is it strictly an acre? 10 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: I'm going to take my 11 shot at it and let Al correct me if I haven't got it 12 right. But the rental rate is calculated by comparing 13 comparable rental rates that a similar project would 14 pay a private property owner. So it's kind of the 15 market value out there in the private land. So that 16 theoretically, a person renting public lands would pay 17 the same amount they would pay -- you know, it's 18 appraised, it's prepared by an appraiser, so the 19 person, the project proponent would pay the same 20 amount for the public land or the American public as 21 they would a private landowner. 22 MEMBER HOLIDAY: That seems kind of 23 interesting because I believe a private landowner 24 would get a royalty off of that. 25 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Anything you want to 102 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 add, Al? 2 MR. STEIN: BLM, Al Stein. We have in 3 the past had wind energy projects where we have 4 assessed rental and also assessed a fee, depending 5 upon how much power was generated. We haven't really 6 determined which way we are going to go at this point, 7 but assessing rental based on partially or wholly the 8 amount of power that's generated is a very cumbersome 9 process in terms of monitoring all their books and 10 making sure that they provide the appropriate 11 information as to how much power they are generating, 12 how much power they are getting paid for, and it takes 13 a lot of work to do that. 14 So that's part of what may be factored into 15 whatever decision Washington makes, because they are 16 going to make a decision Bureauwide. 17 MEMBER HOLIDAY: I can tell you that the 18 amount of power that's generated by the facility is 19 monitored every four seconds. There is a transducer 20 there and that energy goes to some location, the 21 amount that is coming out of that plant, every four 22 seconds. So the amount of trouble to monitor it -- 23 you can put your own transducer in there and monitor 24 that every four seconds. And that's usually part of 25 these contracts for the wind farms when Edison had 103 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 them. We actually had transducers there and we 2 monitored every four seconds the output of that plant, 3 so we can calculate the amount of kilowatt hours 4 almost on an instantaneous basis. 5 MEMBER RUDNICK: I guess my question is 6 for Steve. On an ACEC, which is restricted to this 7 kind of power, wind power or solar now, I assume? 8 MR. BORCHARD: The current policy that 9 is being -- that is undergoing rewriting, the current 10 policy does prohibit wind development in ACECs. 11 However, we have come out publicly and told the public 12 that policy is being rewritten right now. 13 MEMBER RUDNICK: The same for solar? 14 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: No. Solar is not -- 15 from a policy perspective, there is no policy 16 restricting solar development in ACECs currently. 17 MEMBER RUDNICK: What is the process for 18 redoing the boundaries or doing away with an ACEC if 19 it's found that an ACEC is not necessary? Things 20 change? 21 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Well, ACECs are 22 designated through a land use planning process. So I 23 would assume if we were considering taking that 24 designation off -- de-designating an ACEC, it would go 25 through the same public land planning process. 104 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Any other Council 2 reports? 3 MEMBER SCHILLER: Council report? Or 4 are we still on the letter? 5 MEMBER HUND: I think as a group we need 6 to decide whether or not we are going to adopt the 7 letter. I realize that we haven't summarized that 8 letter at all to the members of the audience, and I 9 was thinking maybe I could take just two or three 10 minutes to summarize the letter to the public, if you 11 folks agree. 12 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Any objection to that? 13 MEMBER SHUMWAY: It might be better to 14 summarize it when the Council comes to a consensus on 15 the letter. It seems a little premature right now. 16 MEMBER HUND: Sure. 17 MEMBER SCHILLER: I thought the letter 18 was well written and I thank you for writing it. I 19 just wanted to note that in one part you stated that 20 there is no alternative -- no action alternative would 21 be included in all of that, and I believe if you look 22 by law, it even requires no action alternative on 23 everything to reflect the standards of the public 24 notice, what the existing is. 25 MEMBER HUND: Yeah, that's correct. The 105 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 way it's written, it's just basically reminding them 2 of what the Council on Environmental Quality says that 3 they need to do and ask that they specifically follow 4 that. So to an extent, it's redundant, but on the 5 other hand, I think it's helpful to remind them. 6 MEMBER SCHILLER: I have no problem with 7 that. 8 MEMBER HOLIDAY: What is our next step 9 here? Just review it and come back with additional 10 comments? 11 MEMBER HUND: Today what I would ask is 12 we consider the adoption of the letter so that our 13 Chair, on behalf of the rest of us, can send it to 14 Steve. And I would recommend that we cc Michael Pool 15 and perhaps the appropriate person in D.C., as well. 16 MEMBER BANIS: I guess, if I may for 17 parliamentary reasons so we can discuss this and 18 potentially offer amendments to it, I move that we 19 accept this letter. Just so we can start the 20 discussion. 21 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Is there a second? 22 MEMBER SHUMWAY: I'll second. 23 MEMBER BANIS: All in favor of this. A 24 chance to offer amendments and changes. 25 MEMBER SHUMWAY: I would like to start 106 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 it off by discussing. I find it ironic that I would 2 agree with Geary on something like this. 3 MEMBER HUND: That's surprising. I 4 tried to make the letter representing all of us. 5 MEMBER SHUMWAY: However, I do have two 6 important considerations. First, "recognizes the need 7 to reduce the nation's dependency on foreign oil." 8 Developing alternative methods of generating 9 electricity does not reduce our dependence on oil 10 unless, and importantly, our country segueways in a 11 very big way to electric vehicles because oil is 12 strictly transportation related. It's not the same as 13 generating electricity. So I think that that sentence 14 either needs to be modified in some way to include 15 transport -- using electric vehicles in a major way, 16 not just the way we have it now or even projected into 17 the future, but in a major way. 18 And secondly, reducing pollution is always 19 a needed thing to do if we can. However, there is no 20 scientific evidence that the generation, human or 21 otherwise, of CO2 drives climate change. So I think we 22 need to modify that or simply leave it out. But 23 generating alternative ways of generating electricity, 24 developing alternative ways of generating electricity 25 is pretty much in our political culture by mandates. 107 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 I agree with Geary's proposals, especially in 2 principle, as a land user. 3 CHAIRMAN MABEN: I have to disagree with 4 you on the electric vehicles. I think it ought to be 5 alternate fuel vehicles because there is more than one 6 source of power. 7 MEMBER SHUMWAY: Yes, something like 8 that. 9 MEMBER HUND: Just quickly in response, 10 I think what I was trying to accomplish here is a 11 general statement of our understanding of this problem 12 and our reasonableness. So that's why I said we 13 recognize the need to reduce the nation's dependency 14 on foreign oil and reduce greenhouse gases because 15 those are national goals. 16 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: I do have a little 17 bit of an issue of the greenhouse gas issue because 18 there are experts that you go both ways. There is an 19 expert that says it will cause climate changes and 20 those who say it doesn't. And I'm not sure that is 21 appropriate. It's such a controversial issue, I think 22 about our body, being so diverse, we should step away 23 from that comment. I would just be more comfortable 24 if that was just left out. 25 MEMBER HOLIDAY: I would agree with 108 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 that. 2 MEMBER SHUMWAY: May I follow up there? 3 And also, this letter addresses the mandate of the BLM 4 to accommodate proposals for alternative energy; 5 right? So regardless of what is driving the mandate, 6 the BLM is forced to do it. So our reasons, which are 7 scientifically -- I don't think is scientifically 8 controversial -- what we are trying to do is provide 9 the BLM with some kind of usable advice. And I think 10 that the reasons for doing this are irrelevant. The 11 BLM is mandated to do it, so therefore, we should be 12 in a position of helping them make these decisions. 13 MEMBER CHARLTON: I almost quoted the 14 paragraphs in this Newsweek article that said that the 15 United States is about the only country in the world 16 who still considers greenhouse gas issue controversial 17 because of the present administration's policies and 18 collusion with the petroleum industry. 19 I spent months reading articles and going 20 to conferences on it and everything else, and I don't 21 see anything controversial about it at all. There is 22 a controversial term about what percentage is man 23 driven and what percentage is part of a natural cycle 24 that's taking place. But it's taking place and it's 25 causing problems. And these problems are bigger than 109 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 the economic problems that we have right now. 2 CHAIRMAN MABEN: I have a question, 3 Steve. State of California has legislation related to 4 greenhouse gases and their management. Are you 5 subject to that legislation, or because you are a 6 federal agency, you are not under it? 7 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: I don't know. It 8 seems to me if you get to the crux of the matter, the 9 State of California regulation specifically addresses 10 just carbon dioxide reduction and sets goals for 11 achievement of reduction of carbon dioxide. So 12 without saying -- without reaching agreement that 13 carbon dioxide is the scientific cause of climate 14 change, I think what we can do is address the issue of 15 carbon dioxide reduction. Maybe if this body cannot 16 reach agreement on a mutually agreeable statement 17 about greenhouse gas reduction, this body might be 18 able to reach agreement that they support the state 19 legislature's mandate to reduce carbon dioxide 20 emissions. 21 MEMBER SHUMWAY: Maybe rather than 22 "support," say "recognize" the mandate. Support 23 implies something totally different. 24 MR. BORCHARD: Stay away from the word 25 "greenhouse gas" and focus on those things we can 110 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 support, or recognize mandates that are already out 2 there in this renewable mandate that BLM has. It's a 3 good idea to focus on that. 4 MEMBER HOLIDAY: I think the mandate is 5 to acknowledge that we need to reduce our dependence 6 on fossil fuel, for whatever reason, economic or 7 climate change or anything. It's something that we 8 need to reduce, and that's what the renewable 9 resources are for is to reduce our dependency on 10 fossil fuels. 11 MEMBER HUND: I understand. I think I 12 can rewrite the sentence to talk about the CO2 mandate 13 and reduction on dependency on foreign oil and drop 14 the greenhouse gases. And I do want to say I think we 15 all have to get where we can live with this letter 16 because we are all going to have things that we don't 17 feel 100 percent behind, but try to get to a place 18 where we all feel like we can lend our name to this, 19 even if we don't agree 100 percent. 20 So I would suggest that we rewrite that 21 sentence to reflect the discussion we've had, and we 22 could adopt the letter with that change and any others 23 that we might make as we go along in our discussion 24 here. And then I will rewrite it to try to capture 25 that and send it back out to the group and if 111 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 everybody agrees with it, we can have an official -- 2 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: I don't have any 3 other problems with the letter. 4 MEMBER HOLIDAY: I think if we can put 5 that in a little different context, we can approve it. 6 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Is there any further 7 discussion? 8 MEMBER BANIS: Just simply restate my 9 motion and if it's okay with the seconder of the 10 motion, I think I would like to achieve the term we 11 brought in to say that the DAC approves in principle 12 the letter that has been drafted, and accepts the 13 suggestions or the plans that Geary will modify that 14 letter for our approval. Is that okay with the 15 seconder of the motion? 16 MEMBER SHUMWAY: Yes, I second it. 17 MEMBER HUND: I want to quickly say I'm 18 recommending a change to third paragraph, towards the 19 bottom where it says "as such." I just used the word 20 "ensure" twice, so I rewrote the sentence to say "As 21 such, it's imperative that processes be developed to 22 ensure that renewable energy projects are 23 appropriately limited in size, number, and location so 24 they do not cause unacceptable harm." Just a very 25 slight change to make it read better. 112 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 CHAIRMAN MABEN: With that, all in 2 favor. Aye. Opposed? (Voice vote taken.) Motion 3 carries. 4 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Thank you for your 5 effort. 6 CHAIRMAN MABEN: I would like to divert 7 from the agenda briefly. I believe Supervisor from 8 San Bernardino County is here. 9 SUPERVISOR MITZELFELT: I'll wait until 10 public comment. 11 CHAIRMAN MABEN: You want to wait until 12 public comment? 13 SUPERVISOR MITZELFELT: Yes. Thank you, 14 though. 15 MEMBER HUND: Should I briefly summarize 16 the letter? 17 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Yes, sir. 18 MEMBER HUND: So for the members of the 19 public, what we did was we drafted a letter to Steve 20 Borchard and the BLM about proposed renewable energy 21 projects in the desert. And I will briefly touch on 22 some of the high points of the letter. 23 One does say that the DAC recognizes the 24 need to meet California CO2 mandates and reduce the 25 nation's dependency on foreign oil. And we go on to 113 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 say, "We support this goal. However, as a diverse 2 body of individuals representing an equally diverse 3 group of constituents and geographic areas, we are 4 very concerned that the rush to accommodate renewable 5 energy projects in the California desert could result 6 in the permitting and development of projects which 7 cause unacceptable impacts to the resources of the 8 California Desert Conservation Area, projects which on 9 balance will be of greater cost than benefit." 10 And then we go on to talk about specific 11 ways that the BLM could help to ensure that those 12 kinds of impacts don't happen. And we talk about 13 acceptable project areas, and we ask that that 14 projects avoid areas containing important natural, 15 cultural, and recreational resources. And among those 16 recreational resources are off-highway vehicle -- 17 designated off-highway vehicle areas since those don't 18 have coverage under NEPA that would help protect them. 19 We also ask that the BLM prioritize 20 disturbed or otherwise impacted areas near existing or 21 officially designated electrical transmission 22 corridors. For example, those that were determined in 23 the writing and development of the California Desert 24 Conservation Area Management Plan. Might not be a 25 corridor right now, but those corridors were 114 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 identified through lots of public input and consensus. 2 We also talk about asking the BLM to 3 carefully evaluate the need for each project, its 4 purpose and need. We ask them to look at 5 alternatives, including locating the plants on private 6 lands and also on military land that has been 7 abandoned, is no longer being used. That either is 8 where they could be developed now or where remediation 9 of the site can allow for development. 10 We ask that they include a cumulative 11 effects analysis. We specifically talk about 12 potential impacts to recreational resources and ask 13 that those be considered, including not only the off- 14 highway vehicle areas, but also motorized and 15 nonmotorized trails, rockhounding areas, and other 16 recreational resources. We ask that they look at 17 potential impacts to wildlife movement, because in 18 some cases they propose very large projects, large, 19 long linear projects on both sides of Interstates for 20 miles that could block wildlife movement, and for that 21 matter, the movement of the motorized and nonmotorized 22 recreational users. 23 We also asked them to really take a look at 24 economic viability and compensation, making sure that 25 the public is fairly compensated in the event that 115 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 projects are approved, and we discussed that a little 2 bit. Also, best management practices. The Wind 3 Energy Programmatic Environmental Impact Statement 4 developed best management practices for the siting, 5 development and maintenance of these facilities. And 6 we want to make sure where they are permitted and 7 developed, that they have consistent best management 8 practices that ensure that impacts are minimized. 9 Also project remediation, we want to make 10 sure if a project is approved, that there are 11 sufficient funds to provide for the site's reclamation 12 in the event that it's abandoned or otherwise 13 terminated. Oh, and I think a very important aspect 14 of it is public participation in the NEPA review 15 process, because it is possible when this Programatic 16 EIS is completed for solar energy, that some projects 17 could be done with an environmental assessment. It's 18 not likely, but it's possible. And they don't 19 automatically require public input. And so we wanted 20 to ensure that all solar projects individually have a 21 process by which the public can be involved in giving 22 them input because we feel that's good public policy. 23 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Thank you, Geary. We 24 are going to hold off on public comment on this 25 particular issue since this is a DAC issue. 116 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MR. WALDHEIM: Is this just BLM land, 2 not private land? 3 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Just federal property. 4 MEMBER HUND: I just wanted to mention 5 that we do recommend that BLM, in consideration of 6 alternatives, look at the alternatives that the energy 7 companies might have on private land or military land 8 or other locations or even outside the desert: 9 Rooftop, solar development of smaller facilities 10 closer to where the energy demand is. 11 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Any other Council 12 comments? 13 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Are we on Council 14 reports or on his letter? 15 CHAIRMAN MABEN: His letter is part of 16 Council reports. 17 MEMBER HUND: The two agenda items were 18 sort of melded together. 19 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: I have a couple 20 comments/requests, and I don't know if I'm even 21 allowed to do this. I would request that the next 22 meeting be held in Barstow and we have a tour of 23 Johnson Valley and possibly the Hammers. It's an 24 extreme rock crawling area that is near and dear to 25 the hearts of many off-roaders. 117 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 I also wanted to make a couple of 2 statements with the withdrawal meeting that the 3 military held. They held a withdrawal meeting to 4 explain to the public that segregation. In that 5 meeting they just held an open house-type meeting. 6 You walked in and there were story boards. They 7 didn't actually give you a presentation and explain 8 the process. And I was very disappointed with that 9 format. 10 I really think for something that's going 11 to have this type of an impact to the public, that 12 they should make some type of formal presentation 13 because your general public, Joe Blow public-at-large 14 probably doesn't understand the NEPA process. And 15 this process is a little bit more confusing than the 16 regular NEPA process, withdrawal, segregation, and all 17 that other good stuff. 18 And so I would like to request that the DAC 19 as a body write a letter to the military explaining 20 that we were a little bit disappointed with that 21 format and that we would like that the scoping 22 meetings that are coming up have a formal 23 presentation. It's very hard for the public-at-large 24 without any framework to understand -- without them 25 putting up the framework of the process, to engage in 118 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 constructive comments or have constructive input. I 2 think that's very important. And I have been getting 3 the feeling that the military is not going to put on a 4 formal presentation at their scoping meetings. And I 5 think that's very important. And I will write the 6 letter. Geary can help me. Whatever. 7 MEMBER HUND: I'll skip one. 8 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: I will write the 9 letter and circulate it to the DAC if that is okay 10 with everyone. I don't know if you need a motion. 11 MEMBER SHUMWAY: Can we make a comment? 12 I will object to a letter. There are opportunities 13 for the public. The Friends of the Johnson Valley or 14 something like that have regular meetings and they 15 always have a presentation from the publicity guy from 16 the military to do that. And we have already -- 17 haven't we already resolved to have somebody from 18 Twentynine Palms to come at our future DAC meetings 19 and have a regular meeting? Didn't we decide on that 20 this morning? I know my mind is going, but I don't 21 object to a letter. I'm not sure it will do much 22 good. 23 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: I think it's 24 important that we tell them how we feel, so therefore, 25 we are not just back here complaining about what they 119 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 are doing. That we are clear about our feelings about 2 how public input should be taken. So if there is any 3 objection, does anybody want to make a motion? 4 MEMBER HOLIDAY: Send a letter around. 5 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Okay. I wanted to 6 know if it is appropriate for the DAC to submit 7 official scoping comments on the NOI for PEIS. Is 8 that an appropriate thing for us to do? Since I'm 9 new, I don't know if you make comments on public 10 documents. 11 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: I guess the DAC 12 charter suggests that the purpose of the body is to 13 provide assistance and recommendations to the BLM on 14 land management. So I mean, under that purpose, I 15 don't see why not. I mean, this is a public land 16 management issue. 17 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: I'm more than 18 willing again to write those comments and send them 19 around to everybody for editing. 20 MEMBER HUND: I wasn't necessarily 21 volunteering, but I would be glad to help out. But 22 just not author it. Maybe the meeting after next if 23 we have a letter. 24 But would it possibly be that, based on our 25 charter, the appropriate way to do that, would it be 120 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 for us to make comments to you with a copy to the 2 military? Or is that -- or could we just -- you think 3 we could comment directly to the military? 4 MEMBER HOLIDAY: I think it would be 5 better to make comments to the BLM, and we can send 6 copies to them. 7 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Under the NEPA, the 8 military is the lead and BLM is a cooperator. So if 9 the DAC wants to make comments during the scoping 10 period, who they come to, I guess I don't -- I'm not 11 going to worry about that detail. 12 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Either way, they 13 have to be folded into a NEPA. But you get them 14 directly from the military, since you are a 15 cooperating agency; correct? 16 MEMBER HUND: If you are a cooperating 17 agency, then in essence, we would be writing those 18 comments to you as well as to them. 19 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: It's a fine line. 20 MEMBER ACUNA: I'm in support of where 21 you are going. I think we are better off as a group 22 having our own voice and saying that to the military, 23 cc'ing the BLM if we have that authority. Let's not 24 throw more stuff on the BLM to do. And there is also 25 the intervenor process that is available, which gives 121 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 you a higher status if you pushed it further into the 2 proceeding of the actual action. 3 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Is that only in a 4 lawsuit? Is there an intervenor process in the NEPA 5 process? 6 MEMBER ACUNA: Isn't there a process, 7 Steve, where you can actually file for a higher level 8 in the beginning, in the noticing? 9 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Al, can you help us 10 with this? 11 MR. STEIN: The DAC is part of BLM. 12 They are part of BLM's process to develop BLM's 13 opinion and views in management of public lands. So 14 in that, you are -- you are in essence a part of our 15 cooperating agency status. So you can comment to us 16 or comment directly to the military with a copy to us, 17 but it really is part of BLM, and entering into 18 something like an intervenor status, independent of 19 BLM, really I don't think is appropriate. 20 MEMBER ACUNA: So to conclude, maybe 21 that's something that ORBA would want to do on their 22 own? 23 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: I never heard that, 24 but I will gladly write the letter. And our one last 25 thing I would like to officially request that a 122 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 military representative be here at these meetings. 2 And if that's a letter that the DAC has to write 3 instead of the BLM, I will write that letter also. 4 Would you like that? 5 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Let me see what I 6 can accomplish and save you that work and see if I can 7 get a commitment for them to come. 8 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Okay. 9 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: If I can't, then 10 possibly a letter from you would be -- 11 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: That's all I have. 12 I'm trying to be brief. 13 MEMBER SCHILLER: I have a question. 14 Under this process where you are talking about the 15 withdrawal, who makes the decision, the Army or the 16 BLM? If the Army is holding the meetings -- 17 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Who makes what 18 decision? 19 MEMBER SCHILLER: Well, that's the 20 question I'm asking. 21 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: The presentation at 22 the scoping meeting? 23 MEMBER SCHILLER: Right. We are talking 24 about a scoping meeting -- I'm a little confused on 25 who is the lead agency here and who is the deciding 123 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 officer in this process. If it's BLM-administered 2 public land, doesn't the BLM make the decision and not 3 the Army or the Marines? And why are the Marines 4 holding the scoping meetings if it's a BLM- 5 administered land? 6 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Because they are the 7 lead in the NEPA process. 8 MEMBER SCHILLER: Even though -- even 9 though it's BLM-administered land? Because I have a 10 concern with the format, as well. It's well known -- 11 or excuse me -- the process used is called the Delphi 12 process. It was developed by Rand to hold the meeting 13 in that format. And I would urge anybody that's 14 interested to look at the Delphi process up on the 15 Internet and it gives an explanation of that process, 16 because I believe that process and that format is 17 contrary to NEPA. But I'm a little surprised that the 18 Army is controlling the meetings in this case. 19 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Al might be able -- 20 MR. STEIN: You are talking about 21 writing a letter, but that letter itself is not 22 necessary. The DAC can at this meeting discuss it and 23 decide to approve in consensus that BLM encourage the 24 military to hold open public meetings. That is an 25 option for the DAC that could be accomplished 124 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 immediately. 2 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: I will be happy to 3 talk to the military, as we did at the last meeting. 4 Roxie told the colonel that he was going to do a 5 public meeting. 6 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: I think we need 7 something in writing. 8 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Yeah. I will be 9 happy to call my boss and have my boss talk to general 10 Leonard about that. 11 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: I talked to your 12 boss in El Mirage. 13 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: I don't have a 14 problem with that at all. 15 MR. WALDHEIM: You have to make very 16 clear that what Meg is talking about is two separate 17 meetings. What we just went through was a BLM 18 meeting. It was not a military meeting. That was a 19 BLM meeting, so if there was criticism in the format, 20 that should be going to Steve. It was BLM, it was not 21 military. I want to make sure we do not blame the 22 military for something over which they had no control. 23 Now, the meetings that are taking place 24 from now on, yes, those are military. But the two 25 scoping meetings or the two meetings we had on the 125 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 withdrawal, they were run by Roxie, BLM meetings. If 2 that format wasn't acceptable, please do not badger 3 the military on that. Do you want the military to do 4 something differently? Of course. But let's not mix 5 the two together. They are not going to like that. 6 It was a Roxie BLM meeting, not a military meeting. 7 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Thank you. Any other 8 Council comments? 9 MEMBER SCHILLER: I would like to 10 report. 11 As you know this is my last meeting. My 12 term expires the end of next month. I would like to 13 say it's been a very rewarding experience. If I had 14 any recommendation to the new people coming on, I 15 would have to say participate and maintain a good 16 sense of humor, because sometimes you will need it. 17 But I can't believe six years have gone by so fast. 18 As I came into the room this morning, in 19 the six years I have been on the DAC, we haven't had a 20 meeting in this room. But I thought it was ironic 21 that the very first public land management meeting I 22 ever attended was in this very room at a DAC meeting 23 in 1983 when Inyo County Supervisor Johnny Johnson was 24 the chair and Gerry Hillier was the manager rather 25 than the District Manager. And it was interesting, 126 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 Marie Brashear was a member. Richard Rudnick was a 2 member at that time. And I remember Patty McClain 3 being the local resource area manager. 4 And it was interesting that I came to this 5 meeting over an Inyo National Forest issue. I didn't 6 know any difference from one to the other. It just 7 happened that Johnny Johnson did solve a problem for 8 me. But I just thought it was very ironic that my 9 first public land meeting and my last DAC meeting 10 would be in this room. 11 The only two disappointments I have really 12 had are that the two hot issues when I came on the DAC 13 six years ago were Surprise Canyon and Furnace Creek. 14 I have been on the TRT for Surprise Canyon, and we 15 still have no resolution on that issue yet after six 16 years. I hope to be considered on future TRTs by this 17 group, and I would like to say thank you to all of 18 you. 19 (Applause from the audience.) 20 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Since you are talking, 21 come up here and stand up. This is as good a time as 22 any to present you with this award as a small token of 23 BLM's appreciation for your six years of diligent and 24 active participation as a DAC member. You greatly 25 enriched the dialogue and well represented the 127 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 stakeholder groups that you served on this board. And 2 we sincerely appreciate your participation. I for one 3 look forward to your continued participation via the 4 TRTs on subjects of your interest. So thank you very 5 much, Ron. 6 MEMBER SCHILLER: Thank you very much. 7 (Applause from the audience.) 8 MEMBER SCHILLER: I very much appreciate 9 this. Just to let you know that you are not rid of 10 me, I'll still be at the peanut gallery out there. So 11 thank you very much. 12 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Very good. Thank 13 you. 14 CHAIRMAN MABEN: We do have another. We 15 might as well do this all at once. 16 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: I will walk around 17 the table to Dave, since he is here despite the two 18 weeks, the short time that's passed since his surgery. 19 Dave, you also contributed six years of time. 20 MEMBER CHARLTON: Five. 21 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Five years of active 22 and helpful participation as a DAC member representing 23 your interests and the interests that you were 24 nominated to serve for. And also your participation 25 has enriched the dialogue and represented well your 128 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 constituency. So thank you. And I also would offer 2 to that your participation on the Technical Review 3 Teams is also welcome, if the DAC so decides to elect 4 your participation through that forum. So thank you 5 very much. 6 MEMBER CHARLTON: Again, it's a learning 7 experience for me. I did a lot more listening than I 8 did talking. I enjoyed it. I don't want to leave. I 9 could go on with this endlessly. I just hope that I 10 will continue to get the e-mails. And the ones that I 11 am close enough to like Barstow, I will attend as many 12 as I can, continue to learn. It's been a very 13 enriching experience for me and enjoyable. There has 14 been very few contentious items. We had our 15 Adopt-a-Cabin program. We spent a lot of time with 16 that. It was an unanimous decision and working in a 17 good area there, and it was very pleasant. Thanks. 18 (Applause from the audience.) 19 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Randy. 20 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: May I interrupt on 21 a matter of public safety because I have to deal with 22 the CHP. 23 Fire updates. Right now the Riverside 24 freeway is closed. There are two fires burning out of 25 control in Yorba Linda and Corona. The Newhall Pass 129 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 is closed to all traffic, north and southbound, except 2 for emergency personnel responding to the Sylmar fire 3 and spreading possibly to Granada Hills. And there is 4 a fire burning out of control in Rancho Palos Verdes. 5 So I wouldn't be able to get home. 6 CHAIRMAN MABEN: We have good motels up 7 here. 8 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: Sorry to interrupt. 9 But I thought people would want to know that. 10 MEMBER BANIS: I would like to 11 recommend, please, that the BLM apply for a grant this 12 Spring, an OHV grant, to develop an e-maps program 13 with GPS routes to help with back country travel. I 14 would like to suggest that the BLM implement RSS feed 15 for their news area so that folks can get news items 16 automatically without having to visit the Web site 17 periodically. 18 And I would like to thank the BLM for 19 waiving the fees on Veteran's Day for its recreational 20 use areas. I'm not a Veteran, but I certainly 21 appreciate everything the Veterans have done for us 22 and that was a very kind gesture to do it. I hope 23 that continues with the BLM. 24 I would also like to ask the BLM to 25 consider doing its own EIS for Surprise Canyon for its 130 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 areas below the National Park. And lastly, I would 2 like to reiterate my request for the BLM to consider a 3 hiking path into the Surprise Canyon area. Let me 4 just say that we did take a nice, vigorous walk 5 yesterday. But the real choked-up sections that makes 6 it difficult to get through were about 30 minutes 7 beyond where we stopped. So what you saw in the lower 8 canyon was not what I call the choked-out section. 9 But even then, it was a little willy-nilly for us 10 getting up to where we did. But thank you very much. 11 That's all I have. 12 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Any other? Okay. With 13 that, we will get on to field office reports. You 14 have some kind of order you want to do that in? 15 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Well, we could go 16 alphabetically, although Barstow is not here. 17 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Barstow first. 18 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Mickey already 19 presented his report. I think you all have paper 20 copies of the report. And some of them were posted on 21 the Web on time and some of them weren't, so I 22 apologize. We will continue to work at getting those 23 reports posted on the Web for you. We agreed to two 24 weeks prior to the meeting time slot. 25 I would suggest that we open it up to 131 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 members of the DAC to ask questions of the 2 representatives of each of the field offices who have 3 a report here, I guess in the interest of time 4 consumption, rather than have my field managers come 5 up and reiterate what we have already provided for you 6 in the report. Maybe you individual members, if they 7 have any questions about items that are in the report, 8 that you will have our field managers or their actings 9 or otherwise respond to those questions. 10 MEMBER SCHILLER: Why don't we take it 11 by resource areas instead of jumping around? 12 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Just let each member 13 ask a question, and I believe you are ready to go. 14 MEMBER HOLIDAY: I have some questions. 15 We were given the budget for the Imperial Sand Dunes 16 Recreation Area. And I provided you guys with some 17 questions that I had for the management there. And 18 again, the budget items that we were given does not 19 look like, to me anyway -- it's kind of way over 20 stated for the amount of money we are going to collect 21 from the permits. So I need to have a question 22 answered this morning. And again, I have a list here. 23 Does this represent all the expenses and revenue for 24 the 2008-2009 season? 25 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Is Vicki here? 132 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MS. WOOD: I am here, but I can't hear a 2 word of what you are saying with this air conditioner. 3 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Come on down. 4 MS. WOOD: So, yes, we did provide the 5 little handout, and it does include all of the revenue 6 and all the expenditures that we know to date. 7 MEMBER HOLIDAY: You anticipate getting 8 $3,700,000 from permits? 9 MS. WOOD: That's our best estimate 10 based on last year's numbers. 11 MEMBER HOLIDAY: In the -- what makes up 12 the $1,300,000 of funds to start for next year? Is 13 that for labor and trash service or contracts. 14 MS. WOOD: One million for the fee 15 contract. And $376,000 to be divided up between 16 toilet maintenance and toilet rentals and cleaning. 17 MEMBER HOLIDAY: Do you anticipate a fee 18 increase next year? 19 MS. WOOD: We do not anticipate a fee 20 increase. 21 MEMBER HOLIDAY: For the reduction in 22 trash service that we will be having another 23 discussion on here, is that going to allow any 24 additional improvements in the area, like not 25 spending -- I know it was a budget deficit, but if we 133 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 are going to reduce the amount of trash, is there 2 going to be any additional improvements? 3 MS. WOOD: Well, since we can't open the 4 crystal ball and predict how much we are going to 5 collect at this point, balancing the budget does not 6 include any additional projects on the ground for next 7 year. 8 MEMBER HOLIDAY: So this represents a 9 balanced budget as far as you are concerned? 10 MS. WOOD: Yes, sir. 11 MEMBER HOLIDAY: Okay. One of the 12 questions -- other questions that came up that I ran 13 across here in doing research for these questions was 14 in the area of the fee contractor. The contract fee 15 we have, as you know, the last year the amount of 16 money that was paid to vendors other than a contractor 17 was split between the users -- when I say user/BLM and 18 the contractor, they split that fee. For this year, 19 from what I have heard from the contractor, is the 20 user, the BLM, is paying the total amount of that 21 vendor fee; is that correct? 22 MS. WOOD: That's correct. 23 MEMBER HOLIDAY: Why did we change from 24 the visitors paying a portion of the fee to the 25 visitors paying all the fee? 134 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MS. WOOD: That really wasn't even how 2 it was intended to be split out or anything like that. 3 This is a whole new animal, the way we are running fee 4 collection this year because it's a contract, not an 5 assistance agreement with a partner. And so anything 6 that came out about how the contractor is getting 7 paid, how much he's getting paid, was done through 8 contract negotiations. And to get any more specific 9 with that, you would need to ask the contracting 10 officer. 11 MEMBER HOLIDAY: There was nothing in 12 the contract to specify -- I worked on the contract, 13 and there was nothing in the contract to specify that 14 the users were going to pay the vendor fees. And in 15 fact, the gentleman that I worked with in doing the 16 contracts bid this job thinking that that was part of 17 his responsibility. So to now have the users having 18 to pay that 10 percent is not something that I am real 19 happy with, and we will have to see what remedies we 20 have for that. That's all I have. 21 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Any other questions for 22 her? 23 MEMBER ACUNA: Hi, Vicki. I have a 24 question regarding Truck Haven geothermal leasing 25 area. Couple questions. As you are doing your EIS, 135 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 is there a preferred alternative proposed in the EIS? 2 What is it? 3 MS. WOOD: Truckhaven is already a 4 Record of Decision. That process is done. 5 MEMBER ACUNA: All 14,000 acres? 6 MS. WOOD: Yes. 7 MEMBER ACUNA: I was just looking at the 8 report here, and I guess I lost that. 9 By the way, what is the potential? Do you 10 have any numbers on geothermal megawatt possibilities 11 that could be produced from that area? Has anybody 12 ever given -- this is a curious question. I heard 13 that the Imperial Valley is supposed to be heavy 14 geothermal and a lot of energies could come from the 15 Valley. And I was wondering if Truckhaven -- any 16 idea what that would be? 17 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: I think there was a 18 number in the EIS. I don't know what it is. 19 MS. WOOD: We can get back to you on 20 that. I'm not exactly sure. There are some known 21 geothermal resources in that area. That's the reason 22 it was selected. 23 MR. STEIN: Let me clarify that a little 24 bit. The Truckhaven EIS had an assumption for a 25 reasonably foreseeable development in the area in 136 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 terms of what the development would look like and how 2 many megawatts it would generate. The Truckhaven EIS 3 that we just finished is for leasing, not for 4 development. There will be additional analysis and 5 public involvement for development when we get 6 proposals from the companies. But before they do 7 that, they have to unitize the whole area of Truck- 8 haven as developed as a unit rather than each 9 independent piece. 10 MEMBER ACUNA: Thank you for that 11 clarification. That makes perfect sense. Just the 12 idea of leasing is one idea, and the disturbance on 13 the ground is another. 14 MS. WOOD: And will be considered later 15 as a separate project. So there will be another 16 environmental look. Yes. 17 MEMBER ACUNA: Thanks. 18 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Thank you. Ron. 19 MEMBER SCHILLER: I have a question on 20 the Ridgecrest. Under the heading "Mineral 21 exploration, drilling proposal for the Timber Line 22 Resources Corporation," it notes that this -- that 23 there are 4,000 comments from the public concerned 24 over that proposal. I'm curious as to the nature of 25 those comments? Are those all one way or the other? 137 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 Do they look like they were solicited and put together 2 or form letters or how would you characterize those? 3 MR. VILLALOBOS: Hector Villalobos, BLM 4 field manager in Ridgecrest. 5 We received a couple of waves of comment 6 letters that came in, generally generated through our 7 computers or through computers. They were form 8 letters for the most part that used maybe a half dozen 9 different formats. And they were generated from the 10 public through Web sites that they had access to. 11 Generally, I think the Web sites were like Center for 12 Biodiversity and another Web site. So we got some 13 waves of comments that came in, basically expressing 14 the concern about the exploration and future mining 15 that it might lead to. They generally preferred that 16 this project be looked at as an EIS rather than EA, as 17 we have already proposed. 18 They also expressed in general that they 19 would rather see this area -- that is now 20 being considered for wilderness, they would rather 21 continue looking at this area for wilderness. It's a 22 relatively -- very little disturbance has occurred in 23 this area except for the existing exploration that has 24 happened over a decade or two in the past. 25 And that was -- we also got some specific 138 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 comments from individuals. Maybe around a dozen 2 individual comments that took the time to write more 3 details along those lines. I don't think there was 4 any letters that I remember seeing that were in 5 support of it. 6 MEMBER SCHILLER: How do you count these 7 obviously generated letters? Do you count them each 8 as an individual, or do you say these are one comment? 9 OR do you put more weight on it as a generated or an 10 individual letter does? 11 MR. VILLALOBOS: No, we don't put more 12 weight on it because there is a volume of letters that 13 we got. Generally we look at the comments that we 14 have received. We break them up into certain 15 categories and say okay, umpteen letters we got asked 16 about -- asked about or commented on the need to do 17 this as an EIS. So pretty much all of them did. So 18 to me, if we were addressing it further, it would be 19 that a lot of people prefer that it be an EIS. So I'm 20 not going to say such and such said this should be an 21 EIS. Such and such said this should be an EIS. 22 MEMBER SCHILLER: The reason I ask, 23 Hector, is because I suspect that when you have a 24 large volume like this, they are obviously solicited 25 and generated and so on and so forth. The question I 139 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 have and what disturbed me I guess is that if you 2 believe in the opposite point of view, do you have an 3 advantage with your office in trying to generate 6,000 4 letters on a letter generator, even though the source 5 is presumably the same? 6 MR. VILLALOBOS: I can't say. It's one 7 way of the public offering their comments, and really, 8 it's difficult for me to say one way or the other is 9 better. But I know that if we get one letter that 10 says we support this project, you are also going to 11 recognize that one letter. 12 MEMBER SCHILLER: The reason I say that 13 is participating in the public process -- 14 CHAIRMAN MABEN: I think Alan may have 15 something to say. 16 MEMBER SCHILLER: -- I avoid that sort 17 of the thing. 18 MR. STEIN: Ron, Meg has heard my speech 19 before. 20 There are two categories of comments. One 21 is a substantive comment and the other is a vote on 22 the project. And we are not really looking at 23 tallying votes and saying okay, there are so many 24 votes for and against. We are going to go for the 25 votes for because they got a lot more. That's not the 140 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 way we make public land management decisions. 2 We make them based on that input and other 3 factors. So it's the substantive comments that raise 4 issues and provide valuable information that really 5 result in the value of the input. The number of 6 comments that we have for or against are just a small 7 part of what we take into account. 8 MEMBER SCHILLER: Because sometimes it 9 disturbs me when I see a decision made, and one of the 10 rationale is that we received 10,000 comments from the 11 public on this, knowing they were generated from 12 someplace. And I'm saying, does the other side really 13 want to bog down the BLM with the faxes and the stuff 14 if there is an advantage. That was my point. 15 MEMBER RUDNICK: Do you have a question 16 on the same subject? 17 MEMBER SHUMWAY: I have a comment. 18 MEMBER RUDNICK: Why don't you go ahead 19 and ask it. 20 MEMBER SHUMWAY: My comment -- I don't 21 know anything about this project. However, I know 22 quite a bit about mining and exploration. And 23 exploring is not the same as developing a mining 24 prospect. It's simply one of the preliminary 25 activities that is required before you can make a 141 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 decision that costs millions of dollars of investment 2 and provides in return raw materials that we all need 3 to continue our society. 4 And in California, which has the most 5 rigorous regulations regarding mining on earth, we 6 know that projects that do successfully go through 7 based on economics and regulatory approval, community 8 consent, are going to be developed with environmental 9 considerations. But there is always going to be a 10 trade-off. Now, as far as the BLM making a decision 11 regarding approving reclamation for -- not an EIS for 12 a mining project, but an exploration approval, maybe, 13 process which impacts the land a lot less. Now there 14 are a lot of people -- and I would like to remind our 15 DAC members as well as members of the public who don't 16 know this -- to categorically categorize or classify 17 land as wilderness without some kind of -- maybe a lot 18 of knowledge about what kind of mineral resources that 19 land hosts for community use now or in the future is 20 folly. So it's incumbent on our society and maybe our 21 DAC here to advise BLM who is managing these lands to 22 make sure that they know what's there before we start 23 classifying areas of wilderness. 24 I can tell you from personal experience 25 there are a lot of places out there that have been 142 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 classified as wilderness that have very high potential 2 to provide mineral resources for society. So I think 3 that when we make decisions based on public input from 4 people who obviously don't want mining anywhere, any 5 time, we need to consider those. And I think our BLM 6 management does consider those things. 7 I just want to remind people that the only 8 way to know what is there is to look, and the only way 9 to look is to do some drilling. That's it. It's not 10 a reflection on you. I think the BLM really does a 11 pretty good job of managing those things. But we need 12 to be careful about what kind of input we get from 13 people who don't want mining anywhere. 14 CHAIRMAN MABEN: You are up. 15 MEMBER RUDNICK: I have two questions, 16 Hector. Under the Recreation and Wilderness 17 Maintenance Programs, how successful would you say and 18 what is your success rate in these different rehab 19 project restoration projects and all that on the 20 desert? 21 MR. VILLALOBOS: We have been doing some 22 monitoring of the restoration efforts that we have 23 been doing throughout some of our areas. And it's 24 getting pretty high percentages. In some cases, it's 25 getting up to 90 percent. And in other cases it's 143 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 about 70 percent. When we do restoration in an area, 2 70 percent of the time it's going to remain and stay 3 restored, up to 90 percent. 4 It seems like there is a little bit of a 5 correlation with the distance of the rehab to the more 6 heavily used areas. So we seem to be finding that the 7 closer the rehab is to, say, an open area, the higher 8 the percentage of impact to that restored area may 9 result in that area. So we are trying to get a 10 handle. 11 Monitoring also helps us identify what we 12 call hot spots. In other words, an area that we go in 13 and do restoration and for some reason it gets blown 14 out again, and so we go back and try and readdress it 15 and see what else can we do to kind of figure out how 16 to remediate the site. Some areas, for example, we 17 don't even do rehab. We just put up a sign, a closed 18 sign or a barricade of some sort. And it stays good 19 for a long time. It depends on how much in the back 20 country it is. 21 MEMBER RUDNICK: Where are you 22 concentrating? In the back country? 23 MR. VILLALOBOS: No, we are trying to 24 concentrate on the heavily used areas because we 25 have -- 144 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MEMBER RUDNICK: But your success rate 2 is not as good as you would like? 3 MR. VILLALOBOS: I will say one thing. 4 It's hard for us to use taxpayers money because 5 basically we are using a lot of gas tax and 6 Greensticker money in the form of grants to put into 7 the ground. So I will give you an example. I think 8 in the Rands area we put something like 2.5 million 9 dollars worth of restoration work in that area. That 10 includes signing, maintenance, restoration, fencing, 11 and that sort of thing. And in one busy weekend, I 12 expected Thanksgiving weekend we might have several 13 tens of thousands of people recreating in the area. 14 If just 100 people don't pay attention to our efforts 15 out there, they can cause an awful lot of damage and 16 that means your investment out there on the ground is 17 being impacted. 18 MEMBER RUDNICK: You also mentioned that 19 you maintain 300 miles of roads and trails. 20 MR. VILLALOBOS: Uh-huh. Approximately. 21 MEMBER RUDNICK: It seems like when you 22 get through with that, do you start back again? 23 MR. VILLALOBOS: Actually, some of the 24 volunteers, like Ed here, helps maintains. 25 MR. WALDHEIM: The closer we are on the 145 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 open areas, we almost have to do them on a monthly 2 basis. The further we go to Coso Valley and the areas 3 of less population, we can get away with them, maybe 4 twice a year. And then the weather is a big thing. 5 On the single track trails when the rain comes, it 6 does a bad -- does erosion on it, we go right back in 7 and fix it. 8 This year we have had the most active trail 9 maintenance in the Jawbone Dove Springs then we have 10 ever had. And we also do the closing of the trail 11 with the agreement of the Rudnick family. Any trail 12 that is not part of the map, we close it, we put a 13 sign up, we get it out of the system. So as soon as 14 it happens, we are right on it and we take it out. 15 That's in coordination with the BLM. And 16 also in the Rands as we speak we have a grader working 17 on SB-40 and SB-50, SB-60, so we are actively working 18 with the Bureau of Land Management on those designated 19 routes only areas to make sure we control it and 20 manage it properly. That's our commitment for Friends 21 of Jawbones and Hector. 22 MEMBER RUDNICK: It's not Rudnick family 23 anymore. The ranch is sold, and it's now Renewable 24 Resources Group. 25 MR. WALDHEIM: So we will have to get 146 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 together with the Renewable Resources Group. 2 MEMBER RUDNICK: But there are places 3 that -- and I'm sure Keith Axleson has brought to your 4 meetings places like Butterbredt Peak. 5 MR. WALDHEIM: Keith is part of our 6 team. He helps us working on it. So he is definitely 7 part of our team, Friends of Jawbone. 8 The one thing that I want to make sure, 9 when you say 2 million dollars for restoration, we 10 have to take into consideration we are talking about 11 the Rand Mountain area, the arsenic area. That's 12 where the majority of the gobble of the money went. 13 Trust me, Friends of Jawbone have not gotten 2 million 14 dollars. We work on RTP grants, recreational trail 15 grants, which is what we have been surviving on for 16 the last two years and the sales of the books in the 17 Jawbone station. That's how we have been able to do 18 tractor work and maintenance stuff. The big money was 19 for the arsenic. 20 MEMBER RUDNICK: How much money would 21 you need to maintain the trails in that area? 22 MR. WALDHEIM: We plan on putting in 23 this year at least $300,000 for a tractor and worker 24 for the gas and the wages in each area; $300,000 for 25 Jawbones, $300,000 for the Rands area. What you have 147 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 left over you can go to the El Pasoes and go to the 2 other side of 395. 3 For us to do the trial the way it's 4 supposed to be done -- right now the Ridgecrest office 5 has the best maintained trails and I will put them 6 against any field office in the whole state of 7 California because we are actively managing those 8 trails. So you have about 300,000, 600,000 for the 9 two of them. But understand, you have close to 5, 600 10 miles of trails out there to do. So it's going to 11 take that kind of money to get the job done so the 12 public has an enjoyable recreational opportunity and 13 the resources get protected. You maintain a trail 14 system, they will stay on that trail. They are not 15 going to get off the trail. Trust me, we have gone 16 through that way and we have proven 100 percent they 17 will stay on the trail. 18 MEMBER RUDNICK: It's not 100 percent -- 19 you know that -- that they stay on the trail. 20 MR. WALDHEIM: You are correct. 21 MR. VILLALOBOS: Like I said, it's a 22 small percentage, over tens of thousands of people, 23 that use these areas. A small percentage can make a 24 problem for us, and it could be 100 people. 25 MEMBER RUDNICK: I understand that. But 148 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 signing and directions -- people are lost and they 2 don't understand where they are. They know they need 3 to go back over a certain mountain, certain direction. 4 If they don't have a sign telling them the correct way 5 to go, they tend to go on any trail they may find or 6 make one. 7 MR. WALDHEIM: That is the educational 8 process. We were out 140 miles checking the trails. 9 I was appalled at the people that I would catch off 10 the trail. If I were a sheriff, I could have issued a 11 whole bunch of tickets. They don't know any better. 12 There is a new crop of people coming into the BLM 13 lands and the Forest Service that have no clue what is 14 going on. That is why the education program is 15 probably the most important, and law enforcement. Law 16 enforcement is key. Between the Kern County Sheriffs 17 and the law enforcement is key for us to make sure we 18 are out there and we have a presence. You don't obey 19 the law, you get a ticket. End of discussion. 20 MEMBER RUDNICK: I can't agree with you 21 more, education and enforcement. 22 MR. VILLALOBOS: May I clarify a little 23 bit more? Some of our trails -- and I know Ron has 24 had an issue with us on these things before -- some of 25 our trails are not the more heavily used trails. They 149 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 are the ones similar to the ones that we were on 2 yesterday out there going towards Surprise, going up 3 the Panamints, going to Saline Valley. And those 4 trails we don't pay a whole lot of attention to 5 because most of our efforts are going into the area 6 where we have tens of thousands of people, not 100 7 people going in during the year. So we use our 8 resources as best we can, the limited resources as 9 best we can in areas that we know we have to deal with 10 compliance issues as we do. 11 And in other areas they don't want us to 12 touch their trails. If we put a blade down in some 13 places, I will hear about it the next day. They say, 14 Hey, I like to drive my Jeeps the way they are 15 designed to be driven, and I don't want a nice smooth 16 road to ride on. So we will take that into 17 consideration too. Although we haven't touched some 18 trails in the El Pasoes for years now. And we have to 19 start kind of taking that into consideration. There 20 is a lot of the rainfall and they are rutted out and 21 they are whoop-de-do, and we are going to see what we 22 can do. 23 MEMBER RUDNICK: I have one more quick 24 question. Change of directions a little bit. 25 Under the grazing program, you mentioned 150 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 here that you have one permit that is up for 2 relinquishment. Under the relinquishment, are other 3 operators, other ranchers in the area, are they given 4 the opportunity to apply for that permit? 5 MR. VILLALOBOS: That's a process that 6 we are starting to look at from a new perspective 7 because we haven't done too many relinquishments. The 8 allotment that we are talking about right now is the 9 Pilot Knob allotment. The Pilot Knob has had -- that 10 was acquired through the Desert Tortoise Preserve 11 Committee. So they are willing to put that one to 12 rest. I think that was also addressed in our land use 13 management plan as one of those that we were going to 14 relinquish in desert tortoise habitat. So. 15 In that area, public input was already 16 considered at that situation. We did have, I 17 remember, a long time ago another operator that said, 18 well, can I take a look at that in the future? And we 19 said, hey, we are going to look at it through our land 20 use management plan, either WEMO or NEMO. And 21 basically that was a decision made through the plan 22 process to relinquish that one. There are others in 23 the future, and there is one allotment in the Eastern 24 Sierras that we are looking at the possibility of 25 doing that too. 151 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MEMBER RUDNICK: I would hope that in 2 your process of relinquishment, when one operator 3 decides to give up on a permit, that you would allow 4 other operators in the area to be able to take that 5 permit over. 6 MR. VILLALOBOS: I think there is some 7 regulatory requirements. If we do that, we do it 8 through a public review process. And that might be an 9 opportunity where that question is looked at or issue 10 is brought up. 11 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Thank you, Hector. 12 With that we are going to adjourn for lunch and return 13 here at 1:15. 14 (Lunch recess taken from 12:07 p.m. 15 to 1:19 p.m.) 16 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Are there any members 17 that have any more questions for any of the field 18 offices? 19 MEMBER SHUMWAY: I have one question. 20 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Okay. Which office? 21 MEMBER SHUMWAY: For Hector. 22 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Just when you 23 thought it was safe to get back in the water. 24 MEMBER SHUMWAY: I talked to you about 25 this. Darwin. All right. I notice that -- who did 152 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 the studies for the Darwin studies? Who took the 2 samples? 3 MR. VILLALOBOS: The samples were 4 collected by BLM with the assistance of the Sacramento 5 state office. 6 MEMBER SHUMWAY: State BLM people. 7 MR. VILLALOBOS: Yes. 8 MEMBER SHUMWAY: I would like to comment 9 for the record because people aren't aware that Darwin 10 is a known and long-lived lead/zinc mining area which 11 was essentially hydrated in the past and still has 12 resources which in this economy are probably not 13 economic. So right now it's a resource. So it would 14 not be unexpected to see such high bpm levels since 15 it's a known lead/zinc mine area. 16 There is going to be some future studies on 17 this to look at the hazards, especially for the casual 18 user? 19 MR. VILLALOBOS: Yes. 20 MEMBER SHUMWAY: Do you know when these 21 will be scheduled? 22 MR. VILLALOBOS: Don't know. 23 MEMBER SHUMWAY: Who will fund them? 24 MR. VILLALOBOS: BLM. I'm not sure what 25 the status is of that site as a surplus site or 153 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 potential surplus site. Funding could come by way of 2 our central Hazmat funding. 3 MEMBER SHUMWAY: Now, should that 4 happen -- well, should these studies come out, will 5 that preclude any future development of that site as 6 de facto or legitimate mining area? 7 MR. VILLALOBOS: I don't believe so. A 8 lot of the area that is where the potential for future 9 mining exists, a lot of that's already patented. 10 MEMBER SHUMWAY: Right. 11 MR. VILLALOBOS: The area that we are 12 probably more concerned about is the old tailings that 13 are positive out there. And for the most part I know 14 that they've been continued pretty much in the areas 15 where the tailings have gone on downstream or down the 16 washes. 17 MEMBER SHUMWAY: So they have encroached 18 in the public area? 19 MR. VILLALOBOS: Yes, but like I said, 20 the patented mining land is probably the area that has 21 the most concern for future mining, and that will be 22 on private property, basically. 23 MEMBER SHUMWAY: My concern would be 24 that if a legitimate operator came in with a proposal 25 or even for further exploration of the site, I'm sure 154 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 that they would be required to do additional cleanup 2 and things like that, but you don't want the cost of 3 the cleanup to preclude looking at the site as a 4 viable resource. 5 MR. VILLALOBOS: We have those kinds of 6 proposals already on some other areas that we are 7 contemplating cleanups. 8 MEMBER SHUMWAY: It's important for the 9 public to understand that much of this kind of 10 background level of metals especially is endemic to 11 the formation of these deposits. So you would expect 12 things like arsenic background levels in commonly 13 known gold producing areas. It's one of the 14 signatures and it's part of the hydro systems. It's 15 just part of the natural system. Thanks. 16 MR. VILLALOBOS: Uh-huh. 17 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Any further questions 18 for Hector? It looks like you are off the hook. Any 19 other field office? Seeing none, we will move on to 20 current status of aggregate mining. 21 MEMBER ACUNA: I was just looking at the 22 calendar here, and it looks like we are running 23 roughly about an hour behind. And I was wondering, 24 would it be okay with the DAC if we tried to figure out 25 the way to streamline the meetings maybe in terms of 155 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 comments, maybe save the comments for the public at 2 the end. Is that something that we might want to 3 consider just to get ourselves back on schedule? 4 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: I would second that. 5 Save public comment for the end where it says public 6 comment to 2:45. Yes. 7 MEMBER ACUNA: So that's my motion. 8 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Second. 9 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Motion and second. All 10 in favor. Aye. Opposed? (Voice vote taken.) Motion 11 carries. All right. 12 Back to the item, the current status of 13 aggregate mining in the CDD. Who has that? 14 MR. WAIWOOD: Rob Waiwood. I'm the 15 district office mineral program head lead for minerals 16 in the California Desert District area. It includes 17 the conservation area as well as what we call the non- 18 CDCA or the old metro area, Orange, L.A., San Diego. 19 Real quick to give a refresher, I want to 20 thank the public and the Council for having me give 21 you the presentation. I will try to go through it 22 quick because I've been through with court reporters 23 four times this year, and I know how expensive they 24 can be. 25 Anyhow, we have three disposal categories 156 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 for mineral resources on public land. The General 2 Mining Law of 1872, coalescent of the 1866 and 1870 3 Acts. In 1920 they withdrew certain minerals of 4 common occurrence, leasable minerals that we dispose 5 of by lease: coal, oil and gas. In 1970 they lumped 6 geothermal into that category and solid sodium 7 potassium, phosphate and so forth. 8 The stepchild of all those is the Mineral 9 Material Program, construction aggregates, industrial 10 materials, and what we consider mineral materials for 11 the most part. These are materials of extremely 12 common occurrence. And generally of high bulk volume, 13 low bulk value. Okay. You can probably run through 14 these real quick. 15 To give you a little statistic about 16 aggregates in the US or just generally, it's from the 17 National Stone and Center Gravel Association. 18 Aggregates, including sand and gravel primarily and 19 crushed rock, which are evenly distributed, represent 20 half of all solid mineral production in the United 21 States, and that includes coal. Again, it uses about 22 38,000 tons per four-lane highway. 23 During the past 60 years, production area 24 has more than quadrupled, looking at it in terms of 25 3.5 tons per person per year, to over 10 tons, mostly 157 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 because of the required infrastructure associated with 2 it. General figures, about 5 million tons for the 3 International Airport at Denver, and 17 million tons 4 for Grand Coulee. Public works projects really pull 5 in a huge amount of tonnage of these resources. And 6 again, a small six-room house, about 400 tons of 7 aggregates. And 15,000 tons for a general public 8 works, school or hospital. 9 Nationwide, we produce about 1.3 billion 10 tons of aggregate valued at about 8 billion dollars. 11 Complementary to that, we produced about 1.7 billion 12 tons of crushed rock, which is usually complementary 13 aggregate products valued at about 14 billion dollars. 14 Coal, we only produced about 1.8 billion 15 tons, although its value is by far much greater. But 16 in terms of tonnage, between sand and gravel and 17 crushed rock, that represents two-thirds of production 18 of hard minerals in the United States. And naturally, 19 because of the economy, we have seen a 16 to 30 20 percent reduction depending on where you're at. We 21 have about 6300 operations. These are operations, 22 mining resources of greater than 25,000 tons per 23 deposit. 24 California is the leading aggregate 25 producer in the United States. Again, 46 percent of 158 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 that going in concrete aggregates and the remaining 2 distributed mostly into road and construction fill. 3 Again, the distribution is -- if you look 4 real closely at this, most aggregate products are 5 transportation dependent. You are going to see all 6 these deposits being mined at or near major 7 transportation resources. 8 California sand and gravel production, 9 Division of Mines and Geology, which track these 10 things under the State Mining Act, about 190 million 11 tons valued at about 2 billion dollars. And about 231 12 million last year. So about 16 percent decrease. We 13 have about 912 operations in California active as of 14 2007. About 128 of those are in the California Desert 15 District area, of which only about 36 are on public 16 lands. 17 Just giving a brief history of how these 18 are disposed on public lands under the 1947 Materials 19 Act. What it basically said, Secretary of Interior 20 and at this time only the Secretary of Interior can 21 dispose of what we consider common variety -- 22 sandstone, gravel, pumice, pumicite -- from public 23 lands. It also allowed us to sell certain vegetative 24 material, of which we lump into this category. The 25 key requirement of the '47 Act is that it had to be in 159 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 the public interest, could not be prohibited by other 2 laws, and had to be sold at fair market value. 3 Again, in the Act itself, we have to go 4 competitive unless there is no competitive interest. 5 Whether we sell one ton or 10 million tons, we have to 6 identify whether or not it has competitive interest. 7 We also issue free use. And that's actually where a 8 lot of our material in terms of tonnage or cubic yards 9 goes is into public works project. State -- County 10 highway departments, County public works, certain 11 government organizations, certain nonprofit 12 organizations can get free use of mineral materials 13 from public lands. And we issue those in 10-year 14 contracts. There is no upper limit except for 15 nongovernment organizations, which is limited to 16 25,000 tons. 17 Free use also falls within another category 18 of the hobby collecting of petrified wood, which was 19 specifically mentioned in this Act, as well. Again, 20 where it's impractical to obtain competitive interest, 21 we can go noncompetitive. 22 I put in mining claims on this Surface Use 23 Act because a lot of the aggregate development in 24 California as well as oil and gas development was 25 under mining claims originally. Most of our cinder 160 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 operations in the desert and some of our pumice 2 operations and landscape crushed rock are still under 3 mining claims located prior to 1955. As a matter of 4 fact, one of our largest operations in Imperial County 5 was under mining claims in 1948 and '53. 6 So basically what it says in the 1955 7 amendment to that act related to mineral materials. 8 And again, the big issue is no deposit of common 9 varieties. When Congress puts in what we consider 10 weasel words like "common," requires us to consider 11 what is "uncommon." This becomes a problem because we 12 can have claimants go out and claim an aggregate 13 deposit that has a unique depositional environment, 14 lowers the cost of processing, that is no longer a 15 common variety, even though it's a common aggregate. 16 Nonetheless, we do have mining law issues associated 17 with aggregate development on public lands. 18 Block pumice, that was taken out -- if all 19 of you come up to Lee Vining up 395, up on the 20 right-hand side is U.S. Pumice. Because their material 21 is greater than two inches, it's considered block 22 pumice; that's a locatable mineral. If it's smaller 23 than two inches, its a common variety mineral, subject 24 to sale by the Bureau. We sell pumice; we have block 25 pumice under mining claim. 161 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 Petrified wood or any agatized, opalized 2 material, collect free use. This kind of conflicts 3 with our regulations under 8365, which is general 4 category for hobby collection of noncommercial rocks 5 and minerals on public lands without need for permit. 6 Commercial operations for petrified wood you do need a 7 permit or contract, but this does allow up to 250 8 pounds per year and one piece. 9 We issue contracts. Unlike the Mineral 10 Leasing Act and Leasing Or Mining Law, which those two 11 acts create a property interest by defined legal 12 description, contracts are issued by volume or 13 tonnage. Issue them in terms of cubic yards of tons. 14 It depends on how we are going to determine product 15 verification, either by survey or truck tally, one or 16 the other. We don't like to use too many conversion 17 factors in some deposits because if we are looking at 18 a lot of different commodities in there, it's very 19 difficult to convert back from one to another. 20 But nonetheless, we do have small sales 21 where the field office will recognize the need for a 22 local rancher or individual to look for small 23 tonnages, small amounts, that we will set up what we 24 call a community pit which is under what we call short 25 form contracts. These are contracts less than 2,000 162 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 dollars and generally don't last more than a couple 2 months in terms of its use. 3 Kind of a bad thing, but nonetheless, our 4 process in the program is that we issue and renew 5 contracts and free-use permits to state and local 6 organizations. We issue contract cancellations and 7 extensions, we do a lot of those. We appraise. We 8 have to because of the requirement for fair market 9 value, we have to appraise every contract that we have 10 for competitive offer or for negotiated over-the- 11 counter contracts. We establish community pits in 12 common use areas. 13 This is big in Nevada where Nevada and Las 14 Vegas area produce over 8 million tons of material out 15 of their community pits alone under longer term 16 contracts annually. They are the largest public land 17 provider of aggregate materials in the United States. 18 They have over 22 million tons of material under 19 contract at any point in time. By far much more than 20 anywhere else. We do pre and post inspections both 21 for environmental and compliance, but also product 22 verification. We require some operators to have 23 annual surveys done so we can run these things through 24 our systems and determine whether or not materials 25 have been taken in amounts authorized under those 163 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 contracts. 2 We review mine reclamation plans and 3 modifications. We have coordination with most of the 4 state lead agencies under State Mining Act so we don't 5 duplicate these processes. We determine or verify 6 bond amounts; the obligation is on the operator. One 7 of our bigger programs that we had started in the late 8 eighties or early nineties is unauthorized use. We 9 came down heavy on a number of major operators, so 10 this isn't a major problem anymore in terms of large 11 operations. We ended up looking at four areas in 12 which we had trespass damages in the amount of up to 4 13 million tons of material taken, mostly on lands that 14 are split estate where we only own the mineral estate. 15 Again, we process those and maintain that 16 entry and case tracking, which is very important 17 because our budget is now based on how our units of 18 progress -- our budgets come in based on the amount of 19 work we do on the contracts we issue. 20 Also, beginning in 2004, issuance of the 21 work done on these contracts is a cost recovery 22 program. So the operator has to pay for all costs 23 associated with issuing that application. 24 The evaluation, coordination, review and 25 oversight of all the programs within the district 164 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 itself. 2 Permits and free use. Again, we can issue 3 these up to ten years. There is no open-ended for 4 government organizations. Again, the free use of 5 petrified wood, 250 pounds per year plus one piece, 25 6 pounds per day. Again, the noncommercial collection, 7 personal collection of rocks and minerals on public 8 lands are actually under the regulations of 8365. 9 We conduct inspections. We have to ensure 10 that all removals have been authorized, quantities 11 taken in compliance with the contract terms, the sites 12 are properly maintained and reclaimed. And that one 13 of the problems of the big dump in a hole in the 14 ground that isn't occupied, it ends up being landfills 15 for anybody that doesn't want to pay tipping fees for 16 landfills. 17 MEMBER SHUMWAY: Do you know where that 18 site is? Do you recognize the site? 19 MR. WAIWOOD: I should, I took it. But 20 I don't remember. 21 MEMBER SHUMWAY: You took a lot. Maybe 22 you will remember it later. 23 MR. WAIWOOD: Yes, it's right over here, 24 Vanderbilt. 25 We do maintain this in our record system 165 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 both in terms of input of annual production, contract 2 values, appraisal values, as well as collection 3 billings system that links into that system so it can 4 ensure that we are actually getting paid for what's 5 being reported and produced. And each operator has to 6 have and submit a report by the 15th of every month 7 for production that they have done that preceding 8 period. 9 California statistics from just public 10 lands. We are not a major player. One of the 11 problems with California is that we are transportation 12 dependent, where we have what we consider the economic 13 limit to haul. Generally these are communities, 14 cities, and that we are outside that boundary. Mostly 15 private land operations account for the 127 million 16 tons that are produced of aggregate per year. But by 17 far most of what we sell here is sand and gravel. 18 That's the distribution in California, in 19 Southern California, and in the California Desert 20 District. You can see in the larger red dots are the 21 federal contracts. If you notice along all the 22 highways, you will see pits. These are Title 25 aid 23 to highway rights-of-way. The Caltrans has a special 24 Memorandum of Understanding under the Highways Act 25 with Department of Transportation that those sites are 166 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 actually on BLM managed under right-of-way, not under 2 Materials Act contract. It's a little different. We 3 actually don't manage those except to issue the right- 4 of-way and approve right-of-way construction 5 facilities. 6 This is -- for planning purposes, BLM 7 accepts and recognizes the State of California's 8 productive consumptive region assessments and what 9 they call their MRZ, mineral resource zone 10 classifications. We look at aggregates as a 50-year 11 reserve base. And these are the actual PC Regions, 12 productive consumptive regions, the state has 13 identified within the CDD, all mainly associated with 14 population centers, again, transportation dependent. 15 The only reason that I brought this one up 16 is you can actually see the amount of the 50-year 17 demand. I'm not sure that's going to continue after 18 September of this year's economic forecast, but 19 nonetheless, the permitted amount is generally much 20 less. If you look at San Diego County, the amount of 21 permitted material versus what is going to be needed 22 represents only 17 percent of their demand. 23 One of the interesting things about San 24 Diego is they are sand deficient. They produce a lot 25 of crushed rock and what they called manufactured 167 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 sand, but they don't have enough sand for stucco and 2 other purposes. They actually have to import that 3 from Imperial and Riverside counties. 4 This is the distribution of authorizations. 5 A lot of the our sales are short form in terms of 6 numbers. And we like that because Washington looks at 7 numbers for budgeting. These are short-form community 8 pit sales. We have a number of free use permits and a 9 number of pending. We have about half a million tons 10 of pending permits in review at this point. 11 Mineral material sales both competitive and 12 noncompetitive, however, account for most of our 13 tonnage. And the one large one in Palm Springs is the 14 now CEMEX or Transit Mix case which is a 56 million 15 ton contract that's still waiting to be authorized. 16 Well, we have authorized it. We have a dual process 17 in this state, so we are waiting for state 18 authorization. Nonetheless, that shows that in this 19 particular case, we do have a lot of large-ton 20 contracts. We have about 2 and a half million tons 21 under application under review at this time right now. 22 In terms of our production units, this is 23 both cubic yards and tons. You can see that for the 24 most part, we are seeing about one to one and a half 25 million tons produced annually of construction 168 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 aggregates. 2 And if you notice, the 2008 is a real big 3 drop. Some of our pit operations have dropped up to 4 70 percent in terms of production, simply because 5 housing in that area was so dependent on these 6 particular sources that they are just not building 7 anymore. Again, you will see a spike in 1997. That's 8 a trespass that we resolved. Actually, it was 9 resolved much earlier; it's when they put it in the 10 system. We saw a steady increase in dollar value 11 mainly because of the requirement we have to 12 reappraise every one of these contracts every year. 13 And this doesn't include the value of free use, which 14 almost can double this amount of material. We issue 15 about a million tons a year in free-use 16 authorizations. 17 And looking at the distribution of 18 production value by field office, Ridgecrest, Palm 19 Springs and El Centro account for most of the 20 production in the area because that's where most of 21 the demand is. Actually, Ridgecrest production is 22 most of out of a specialty stone. The Palm Springs 23 and El Centro, mostly sand and gravel aggregate. 24 We don't have much of Needles and Barstow 25 mainly because of the availability of private land 169 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 pits or the lack of demand, Needles specifically. 2 However, they do have considerable free use 3 authorization. 4 And again, looking at it in terms of just 5 this year, this is where we are at in terms of 6 production. And in the background, one of our bigger 7 issues is reclamation. It's much easier in gravel 8 pits than in any other mining we do. We can restore 9 these sites pretty well to meet the 25 percent density 10 diversity requirements generally in three years. 11 Okay. And that's the end of that. Just 12 briefly in terms of budget, we take a hit every time 13 budget allocations have been readjusted. Typically 14 the program was about a 400 to 450,000 dollar program 15 being cut down to about 285,000 dollar per year. 16 Again, mainly because a lot of this is cost recovery 17 coming in from the operators and users. 18 That's it. Any questions? 19 MEMBER BANIS: Out of Palmdale just 20 south of us is Santa Clarita. And there has been a 21 hot bed of political issue regarding CEMEX, Mixed 22 Transit, an operation in Soledad Canyon that's very 23 close to the communities and where people are living 24 in Santa Clarita. The City of Santa Clarita did all 25 it could to stop the production at that mine, and the 170 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 County of Los Angeles, as well. 2 But then Congressman McKeon was called into 3 play and he had -- he has worked very hard to 4 negotiate a plan for Mixed Transit to be able to find 5 their aggregate or replace that aggregate source of 6 Soledad Canyon somewhere else. But there is a -- you 7 would think that he negotiated a great compromise. 8 Sure, there is a source over here; you give up this 9 one. But everybody is happy. But it has to go 10 through Congress. And it has to go through 11 Congress -- if you could explain why. It has to do 12 with tax; right? Are you familiar with that 13 particular issue? 14 MR. WAIWOOD: Tax? 15 MEMBER BANIS: The reason why this has 16 to go through Congress in order to allow Transit to 17 switch their claim from Soledad Canyon to the 18 Victorville area? 19 MR. WAIWOOD: They don't have a claim 20 but they do have a contract. 21 MEMBER BANIS: The contract, excuse me, 22 thank you. 23 MR. WAIWOOD: Well, the only difference 24 is because what the contract is. It's a contract. So 25 until we mutually cancel the contract, which our 171 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 regulations allow, they can enforce that contract as a 2 property interest. Even though they have no right, 3 title and interest to that property, they do have a 4 right to an interest in 56 million tons of material. 5 So in order for us to alleviate that particular 6 situation, we have to provide them with 56 million 7 tons elsewhere. It's also allowed by our regulations. 8 That's not an easy task. 9 MEMBER BANIS: But this had to go to 10 Ways and Means Committee in order for Ways and Means 11 to waive some kind of taxes they would have had to pay 12 on that swap. The bill is languishing in Congress. 13 I'm hoping I could get more details out of it so we 14 could all learn more than just the skeletal bit that I 15 know. 16 But it was frustrating to me that there was 17 I think a good solution worked out among all the 18 parties involved. And it now sits in Ways and Means 19 and will die there at the end of this session, and who 20 knows where it goes from there. And that was 21 disappointing that they couldn't work that out right 22 here and now. And now we have to wait for another 23 session. 24 MR. WAIWOOD: The situation is that if I 25 issue a mineral material contract, it's not assessed 172 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 as property tax under state ad valorem until it's sold 2 or exchanged. And that became the issue. They would 3 have been assessed 28 million dollars if we had 4 exchanged it for something else. That's the issue. 5 MEMBER BANIS: I see. 6 MR. WAIWOOD: Because the state would 7 have considered it real property at that point. Right 8 now it's just a contract. And under ad valorem it's 9 at value. It doesn't have value until you are in 10 production. So they can hold this as a contract ad 11 infinitum without having to pay royalty or pay 12 property tax. But if you exchanged it, it's real 13 property. 14 MEMBER BANIS: Thank you. And I would 15 like to thank Congressman McKeon's office. 16 MEMBER SHUMWAY: I have a question. Is 17 the sale price the same as it was when that contract 18 was first negotiated? And I think that was like 50 19 cents a ton. Is it still the same? 20 MR. WAIWOOD: Yes. Only because of the 21 agreement we made. 22 MEMBER SHUMWAY: It might not be lower 23 than market right today, but it would have been a year 24 ago? 25 MR. WAIWOOD: Yes, it would have been. 173 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 We are required to appraise at not less than two-year 2 intervals. The problem with this particular contract, 3 it's by court settlement. So a lot of things thrown 4 into it that are not part of our regulatory process. 5 Back to back 10-year contracts, for example. That's 6 why this is a 20-year project instead of 10-year 7 project. So when we appraised it -- or actually, they 8 won it in a competitive offer back in 1990. The 9 agreement that we had with them is that we would not 10 reappraise it for the next two years after production 11 begins. Well, we are still waiting. 12 MEMBER SHUMWAY: Production never 13 happened? 14 MR. WAIWOOD: Exactly. 15 MEMBER SHUMWAY: Can I just ask one 16 more. 17 Under what circumstances does a 18 noncompetitive interest kick in? 19 MR. WAIWOOD: Well, where we can find 20 noncompetitive interest. Let's say, for example, you 21 come in Barstow and submit an application for 22 material near Four Corners. We will solicit -- if we 23 find that in our planning -- that's never really been 24 an area that we have had competitive interest -- we 25 will go to companies and ask -- and we will actually 174 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 solicit and I have done this on a number of occasions as 2 to whether or not they have interest in this area. If 3 any of them come in and they have competitive 4 interests, we attach that as a competitive offer. And 5 we will proceed with it in that way. 6 There are a number of mechanisms we can do 7 in terms of clearing up the environmental issues, 8 reclamation and mine claims and so forth so the burden 9 isn't on the applicant but on the highest bidder. But 10 nonetheless, we are required by law to go competitive 11 unless we can find a noncompetitive interest. 12 Now, let's say we have a situation, which 13 we do in Barstow, in which access prohibits anybody 14 else but the existing operator to access material on 15 the public lands. That doesn't necessarily mean that 16 there is no competitive interest. We will still go 17 with the competitive offer because we cannot as an 18 agency say whether or not another bidder might be able 19 to acquire access or not. That will come in, and that 20 will reconcile itself when we open the bids or have 21 the oral auction. 22 MEMBER SHUMWAY: I can think of a 23 situation where -- of course, the economy has changed 24 everything, but I could think of a situation where 25 sources, say, in the Inland Empire would become 175 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 depleted or close to depletion in ten years. And the 2 obvious place to move is to the high desert. High 3 desert has a lot of public lands that would be 4 suitable for construction aggregate. So a company 5 comes in and it does all the due diligence, the 6 testing, the whole thing, but that site which is on 7 BLM land, would still go out to competitive bid. 8 There is still no mechanism for recompensing a company 9 for doing the preliminary due diligence? 10 MR. WAIWOOD: Well, the regulations 11 allow any individual to go out and dig a boring or put 12 in a boring or a trench or whatever. We have to 13 acquire that data, but nonetheless, that goes into the 14 competitive offer. Now, whether we share that 15 information or not really depends on how it's 16 acquired. Nonetheless, where we have more of a 17 significant problem is where we have no real up-front 18 competitive interest but we know that it exists. So 19 go ahead and we will offer and tell the operator to go 20 ahead and prepare all the environmental documents, all 21 the compliance, including maybe compensation for 22 endangered species and any other mitigation, but in 23 the bid announcement we will say that whoever wins it-- 24 picks up the winning bid-- is going to have to 25 compensate the original applicant for all costs 176 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 associated with that. So in essence, there is no net 2 loss. 3 MEMBER SHUMWAY: All right. Thank you. 4 MR. WAIWOOD: Easier said than done. 5 MEMBER SCHILLER: I just have a couple 6 questions. First, if I wanted to go out and get a 7 pickup full of sand for my own personal use at my 8 place or a landscape boulder or two, what restrictions 9 would apply to that? 10 MR. WAIWOOD: Well, the 8365 regs -- we 11 are the only one that has that; Forest Service doesn't 12 and it's one of the main problems -- really pertains 13 to hobby mineral collecting, meaning going out and 14 picking up a rock. To pick up a landscape boulder, 15 that becomes somewhat problematic. The problem is if 16 8365 covered picking up a boulder on public land, does 17 that mean that 19 million people in Southern 18 California can do the same thing in the same spot. We 19 think not. 20 In those particular cases where we see an 21 interest or need for a boulder or two, we can direct 22 you to one of our existing operations or existing 23 community pit. Or direct -- and if there is enough 24 community interest or public interest, we can 25 establish a pit for that purpose, community pit, so 177 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 that we can issue small contract sales. We used to do 2 that as a matter of routine. Three to ten dollars per 3 ton. You would be surprised at how many tons you can 4 pick up in your pickup. But that's the way we would 5 have to do it in that case. 6 MEMBER SCHILLER: So I would have to 7 apply for it. 8 MR. WAIWOOD: You would have to let us 9 know what you want, and we can try to accommodate you 10 because you would be the only one that wanted that 11 particular granite boulder. And if we can't, we would 12 have to direct you to an existing contractor to 13 purchase a lot of them. A lot might give them away 14 because they become problematic in some of these 15 sites. If there is a lot of community interest in 16 this, we can establish a community pit in which we 17 would direct everybody in there under short-form 18 sales. 19 My personal opinion -- and I'm not a 20 lawyer -- but we don't think the regs at 8365 pertain 21 to that. And the reason being was if you looked at 22 the statement in the law where it says that where no 23 other law allows this, you can do it under this law. 24 Well, this is the law that allows that, the Materials 25 Act. And therefore, it must go that route because 178 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 FLPMA, no other law allowed for hobby collecting and 2 mineral materials. The 8365 portion of FLPMA is 3 really out of Title III of the 8365 regs on general 4 hobby collecting out of the FLPMA use and occupation 5 section, not under the materials section. 6 MEMBER SCHILLER: My second question 7 is -- I'm a rock hound and I do go out and collect for 8 lapidarian specialty and my personal use. My question 9 is, I see a lot of advertisement on the Internet for 10 materials, specimens, and such as that and cutting 11 material advertised for sale. And I'm curious how the 12 law applies to that activity. 13 MR. WAIWOOD: It may be a mining law 14 issue. They may have collected that material under 15 the mining law. It may be an uncommon material. If 16 we see -- let's say -- nobody sells on the Internet 17 small pieces of gravel -- but pumice, block pumice, if 18 they collect it on public lands under the 8365 19 provision, which is hobby and mineral collecting, and 20 offer it on the Internet, well, it's a violation of 21 the regulations. But we are probably not going to go 22 after it unless it's some major significant issue. 23 Mainly because that conflicts with the two-inch 24 elimination under the act, which then becomes a mining 25 law matter. 179 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MEMBER SCHILLER: Because pumice is a 2 salable mineral, whether it's a piece of agate -- 3 MR. WAIWOOD: Well, agate could be 4 (unintelligible) under it also. It's very difficult 5 to look at what is common variety versus uncommon 6 variety. Generally when we get into those 7 determinations, we are dealing with dimension stone or 8 rock, which has a particular character, color, 9 variance or vagarity that allows it to be outside the 10 common variety and subject to sale. For example, 11 Ridgecrest sells Rand Schist or facing, very thin and 12 so forth. We sell it out of Bouquet Canyon, off the 13 National Forest. National Forest is allowed to sell 14 material under Forest Act under the 55 Act. 15 But in Arizona, it's under mining law 16 because that particular material has a particular 17 carry that warrants a higher value in the market. So 18 if they are getting 90 dollars per square yard for 19 Bouquet Canyon and Rand material and getting 180 20 dollars out of Arizona for their material, thiers is 21 uncommon because it commands a much higher price than 22 common material. This is -- it takes us two weeks to 23 teach our mineral examiners. It's a real complex 24 issue. And that common variety weasel word -- if 25 Congress had just said sand and gravel, that would be 180 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 pretty simple. 2 MEMBER SCHILLER: Thank you. 3 CHAIRMAN MABEN: No further questions? 4 MR. WAIWOOD: Thank you. 5 CHAIRMAN MABEN: This brings us to -- a 6 lot of people have been waiting for this one -- 7 Renewable Energy Program Update. 8 MR. MILLER: My name is Greg Miller. 9 I'm the renewable energy program manager for the CDD 10 BLM. 11 I'm just going to talk to you. Some of you 12 may have already seen portions of these slides 13 already. I apologize for the duplicates, but there 14 is some additional information in some of these as 15 well, so we have some update on this. 16 What the BLM wants to do is establish a 17 renewable energy development program on the CDD and by 18 hopefully identifying some BLM-administered lands 19 suitable for utility-scale renewable energy. That's 20 part of the Impact Statement being developed through 21 the Washington office with the national -- with the 22 Department of Energy. They are helping us to develop 23 a Programatic Environmental Impact Statement that may 24 identify some lands, BLM-wide, suitable for utility- 25 scaled solar or energy development for solar. 181 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 We want to consider the need for additional 2 transmission corridors across BLM-administered lands, 3 and there is a West Flight Energy Transmission 4 Corridor Programatic EIS now, draft, I believe, so 5 that's another thing we are looking at the same time. 6 And potentially amend the BLM land-use plans in the six- 7 state area for the solar development to address 8 renewable energy development. And that's what the EIS 9 may look at, too, is maybe doing some amendments to 10 land use plans. 11 Current guidance and policy: The Energy 12 Act of 2005 which requires the BLM to have at least 13 10,000 megawatts of renewable energy on public lands 14 by 2015. And that's non-hydro-related energy, so it's 15 solar, wind, and geothermal. Of course, Executive 16 Order 13212 requires actions to expedite review of 17 energy-related applications, and we are working our 18 best to get that running. 19 And of course, California Renewable Energy 20 Portfolio Standard, we are trying to help California 21 meet its goals of 20 percent of renewable energy by 22 2010 and even 33 percent by 2020. Currently 13 23 percent of power is from renewable energy in 24 California. So the program -- there are several 25 different things working at the same time. The draft 182 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 West Side Energy Corridor, like I said. Programatic 2 EIS. The Wind Energy Programatic EIS, which came out 3 in June of 2005 somebody mentioned earlier about best 4 management practices associated with that one. 5 There is also the Solar Energy Programatic 6 EIS due Fall of 2010. That's the plan scheduled for 7 the solar energy. And then, of course, we have the 8 Final Programatic EIS for Geothermal Leasing in 9 Western US came out last month. So all of these 10 environmental impact statements, all of these new 11 renewable energy program analyses are coming out all 12 at almost the same time frame. 13 Programatic for Energy Corridor, this is 14 the West Side Corridor. It covers those states, 15 western states and gives you an idea of what corridors 16 they are looking at. Some of these may be amended, 17 changed a little bit as it gets developed. Southern 18 California Desert, you can see a lot of those 19 correspond with the California Desert Conservation 20 Area, the corridors that were established in that. In 21 the transmission corridors, not just energy corridors, 22 but right-of-way corridors for pipelines, transmission 23 lines, all kinds of different linear type of permits 24 that might go through. 25 The Wind Energy Development Programatic 183 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 EIS, that's the final one. This gives you an idea of 2 what the medium high potential for wind energy is on 3 BLM land across western states. It shows that Wyoming 4 is really windy. If you have ever been there, you 5 know that. And in Southern California we have 6 Tehachapi and out near Palm Springs by just the 7 visibility of those windmills out there. 8 And then, of course, there is a lot of wind 9 off the coast. Unfortunately, it's difficult to put 10 windmills off the coast of California because the 11 continental shelf drops off very quickly, so the 12 supports for those windmills would have to be very 13 deep. They can do it off the Atlantic coast because 14 it goes out for miles and miles. But in the 15 California coast, it goes off and drops off. So if 16 you get out to a spot where you can get a good wind 17 away from any sort of visual impacts, it's too deep 18 for them to put in windmills. 19 Currently we have 69 wind energy 20 applications on the Desert District, mostly for 21 testing and that's putting up -- Richard, what are 22 they called? Anemometers. Putting up met towers. 23 Met towers -- we were having fun at lunch on that -- 24 for testing. The met towers are on the left side. 25 It's just a tower with guidelines that hold it up that 184 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 measures the velocity, direction, speed over the 2 course of years. And they usually do that for three 3 years before they apply for another permit that puts 4 in wind turbines -- that might put in wind turbines. 5 Doesn't necessarily do it, but it might. Ninety-three 6 statewide. So gives you an idea that two-thirds of 7 the testing, two-thirds of the windmill or the wind 8 testing projects or applications are on the CDD in 9 Southern California. 10 The green area, real light kind of 11 fluorescent green is where our wind energy 12 applications are right now. Barstow, many around 13 Barstow. In and out I-40 up towards the Cosos there 14 and out on the edge by China Lake. There are some 15 there. So it gives you an idea where they are at. 16 These are multiple acres looking at to try to put in 17 wind towers, met towers to test. So maybe down the 18 line they will put in wind turbines. 19 The Solar Programatic EIS covers six 20 western states. Approximately 200, total, 21 applications in all the states right now, and probably 22 more than 200 now. In the CDD more applications are 23 being filed. Seventy-seven first-in-line solar energy 24 applications, which means that they have the spot 25 first. There are 20 second-in-line solar applications 185 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 right now, which means that they have applied on top 2 of an existing first-in-line, assuming that the 3 first-in-line applicant will drop off or won't be able 4 to pay for it or they will be rejected or something 5 like that. Their application is withdrawn, and they 6 are next in line to be able to potentially develop on 7 that site. 8 Again, for California Desert District -- 78 9 statewide solar applications, first-in-line, 77 on the 10 Desert District. That one is in Eagle Lake, and it 11 sounds like it's not going to be there much longer. 12 It sounds like they are going to drop it off. So we 13 will be down to all of them in the Desert District. 14 And the reason why? There are a couple 15 technologies that are being proposed. Concentrated 16 solar power is one of them with the solar troughs and 17 if you drive by Kramer Junction, those are the solar 18 troughs right there. They use a liquid, the sun 19 reflects to the liquid, and the liquid heats up, heats 20 up water, water turns to steam, steam pushes the 21 turbines, turbines makes electricity. How is that for 22 quick, huh? 23 The Stirling engine, upper left. That's 24 the new one that's coming out. El Centro is going to 25 have that luxury. They are solar too. That's one of 186 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 the newer technologies where hydrogen is being heated 2 up in that little thing at the top of their little 3 nose there, and using the mirrors to reflect the 4 hydrogen, again hydrogen is heated up, the hydrogen 5 makes steam or whatever. That's a different 6 technology I don't know yet. 7 The concentrated solar towers, those are 8 using heliostats. That's going to be -- if you are 9 familiar with the ISEGS project out near Primm, 10 Nevada -- I-S-E-G-S. The Ivanpah Solar Energy 11 Generating System, ISEGS. They are going to use 12 heliostats to reflect the sun's light to the tower 13 which uses molten salt; salt is heated up, heats up 14 water, water steams, steam turns turbines, turbines 15 generate electricity. Pretty much from the different 16 technologies, they are just heating up liquid to make 17 steam to push a turbine. That's just the different 18 technologies. Depends on what they are doing and 19 where they are doing it, defines how many numbers of 20 heliostats or how many numbers of Stirling engines 21 they are going to use. 22 The Ivanpah project is going to use 130,000 23 heliostats with four towers. The Solar Two project, 24 30,000 solar engines. And each one of those can 25 produce like .75 megawatts. Something like that. It 187 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 takes more than that. I think it takes 12 of them to 2 make 1.5 megawatts. So they are going to put 30,000 3 of those out there so they are hoping for 400 4 megawatts. 5 MR. HILLIER: What is the scale of what 6 we are looking at there? 7 MR. MILLER: 30 feet high; 40 feet wide, 8 something like that: 30 by 40. The panels are 9 about -- the solar troughs, you have driven by them by 10 Kramer Junction. They are about 10 feet high and on 11 their tilted access may be a little higher. The power 12 towers could be 400 feet tall. So -- but with all 13 those heliostats around them, it concentrate the solar 14 energy to one spot on top and that runs the power out. 15 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: Clarification: The 16 panel itself is called a solar engine? 17 MR. MILLER: That's what they are 18 calling it, Stirling solar engine. It's called the 19 sun catcher. 20 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: So when you talk 21 about 30,000, you are talking about that device? 22 MR. MILLER: 30,000 of those devices. 23 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: They are in dual 24 arrays, so you are counting two as one? How do you 25 count? 188 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MR. MILLER: No, no. They're 2 individually -- they are individual solar catchers, 3 and they are individual units. So 12 of those, 12 of 4 those units right there, it looks like a satellite 5 dish; right? 6 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: You could put one of 7 those at your house, stand-alone generator. There is a 8 generator at the end of each one of those shafts or 9 towers. 10 MR. MILLER: So this is the Stirling 11 engine. It's about 21 percent efficient, which means 12 it's really efficient. They tested this out -- tell 13 me, where did they test this? Sandia, New Mexico. 14 They tested this out for like 20 years, so it's not a 15 new technology as far as they are concerned. They 16 have been doing this for a long time. This sun 17 catcher here, all those mirrors will focus the energy 18 of the sun inside this little Stirling engine. That 19 heats up their hydrogen, and then the hydrogen -- I 20 think the engine itself pumps, makes electricity, and 21 the electricity comes down into an array, and they 22 push it into a transformer and it goes out to the 23 transmission line at that point. So that's kind of 24 interesting. Personally, I think it's a really cool 25 technology. I would like to see it happen. 189 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: Push the little 2 button. 3 MEMBER SCHILLER: How much do those 4 generate per unit? 5 MR. MILLER: If you put 12 of them 6 together, it's 1.5 megawatt for 12 units. 1.5 7 megawatts. 8 MEMBER SHUMWAY: That's if the sun 9 shines on them. 10 MR. MILLER: Those will track the sun. 11 MEMBER SHUMWAY: But it doesn't make it 12 at night? 13 MR. MILLER: No. So they are looking at 14 different storage methods for night. 15 So moving along. So why Southern 16 California? Well, the red here is -- these are areas 17 that have been excluded because military or something 18 like that and wilderness. But everybody else shows 19 that Southern Nevada and Southern California and 20 Western Arizona is the hot spot -- no pun intended -- 21 for solar energy for the solarity for concentrated 22 solar power. So that's why they are looking at so 23 much in this area. Arizona right now has -- I think 24 in this area has been application for a 225,000-acre 25 permit application for solar energy. And they want to 190 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 develop the whole thing. So there are some questions, 2 how big is enough? So we are talking to them right 3 now. Everybody is talking about that. 4 The other thing we use is photovoltaic. 5 Those are the panels -- this is actually photovoltaic 6 that follows the sun and just soaks in the sun's 7 energy and pulls it down just like a solar dish, just 8 like the Stirling dish. These have, of course, the 9 chips for the modules that just -- instead of 10 absorbing the heat, it absorbs the sun's rays and uses 11 that -- I'm not familiar with that technology at all. 12 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: The ones you 13 pointed to are fixed, but the others move across? 14 MR. MILLER: Those are definitely fixed. 15 Those are flat. And this is what we will see more of, 16 the flat ones. 17 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: Is that because 18 they are cheaper? 19 MR. MILLER: Yes, cheaper and probably a 20 little more efficient. 21 MEMBER SHUMWAY: Are they more area 22 intensive, obviously? 23 MEMBER SCHILLER: It seems they will get 24 dirtier being flat. 25 MR. MILLER: Yes. So again, the 191 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 solarity for photovoltaic, tilted photovoltaic, is 2 very good in this area here. And you have more in New 3 Mexico there. That's why there is such a "land rush" 4 for solar power on California Desert District at this 5 time. 6 MR. HILLIER: Two questions. One -- 7 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Gerry, no questions. 8 MR. HILLIER: Okay. 9 MR. MILLER: Sorry, Gerry. So where are 10 our solar applications? All the red is solar 11 applications. We have a large concentration off I-10, 12 large concentration over here in that Cadiz area. 13 Here is the Ivanpah site. There is another site above 14 it, Opti Solar. Stirling is here, El Centro. So the 15 two that are the furthest along is our Bright Source, 16 Ivanpah. That's the concentrated power towers, 400 17 foot towers with the heliostats. And our Solar 2 18 Stirling engine site down here in El Centro right off 19 of I-8. Those are the two furthest along. 20 Others are pending plans and development 21 being developed. And for us to accept those plans and 22 development, they have to be decent enough to describe 23 what the project is, where it's going to be, what 24 impacts may occur. A decent project description. And 25 then we can move forward to a Notice of Intent for 192 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 developing an EIS. 2 The reason why we are going straight to an 3 Environmental Impact Statement for this is because 4 it's land use intensive. The other thing, like I 5 mentioned before, as far as land use plan amendments, 6 the land use plans we have now do not have mention of 7 management for renewable energy this intensive. 8 So what we are doing is -- what happens 9 with these solar energy projects is they pretty much 10 eliminate all other uses because they fence the whole 11 thing off. So what we are doing for land use plans, 12 because they are going from a multiple land use class, 13 limited, to intense for that site. So that amends the 14 land use plan. So we have to do an EIS and amendment 15 for land use plan at the same time. 16 So it's a process that's enormous. And not 17 to mention that with the concentrated solar power 18 projects, those also do have to go through what's 19 called the Energy Commission Process for an 20 Application for Certification. So we are trying to -- 21 the California Energy Commission and the BLM have 22 developed a Memorandum of Understanding to merge our 23 two processes together to try to come up with one 24 environmental document that answers the questions and 25 addresses the issues for that power project. 193 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 Photovoltaic, the California Energy 2 Commission doesn't care -- I should say that. Has no 3 jurisdiction over photovoltaic, only concentrated 4 solar power. And of course, the first two projects 5 out of the shoot, concentrated solar power. 6 So geothermal. I'm just learning. I'm 7 just getting up to speed on geothermal. Here is the 8 Final Programatic Environmental Impact Statement. It 9 came out October 2008. Three volumes, it's pretty 10 thick. It's pretty good. I haven't read it 11 completely yet. We have three, I believe, the Coso 12 site here. There is Truckhaven there. Is that Truck 13 Haven, Vicki? Yes. What is this one down here? East 14 Mesa. 15 So we have three that we are looking at. 16 There is another one that's being proposed pretty soon 17 called West Coso, right off 395 right west of the 18 China Lake Air Base there, Navy Air Weapons Station. 19 That is being -- soon it will be developing a 20 Programatic EIS for that area, for competitive leasing 21 in this area as well. That's down the line too. 22 So BLM and renewable energy. Of course, 23 there are multiple use agencies responsible for the 24 protection, use, and the appropriate development of 25 public lands. So we have to look at everything. 194 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 Renewable energy is both a national and state 2 priority. And if you paid any attention to the 3 election debates and the political stuff that happened 4 over the last year, you know that renewable energy is 5 a high priority. 6 Public land in California -- you saw the 7 thermal and where we could -- the solarity for 8 Southern California. We have significant 9 opportunities to contribute to the needs for RPS, the 10 Renewable Portfolio Standard for California. But it 11 presents a significant challenge to the BLM because we 12 are just learning about this. This is something new 13 that the BLM really hasn't had to do right-of-way 14 permits. And this is the right-of-way grant for these 15 huge projects. 16 By the way, we also have to pay attention 17 to the California Desert Conservation Area which 18 contains valuable resources. And some of those like 19 wilderness areas, ACECs, DWMAs, Desert Wildlife 20 Management Areas are off limits to solar and wind. 21 Wind is off limits to the ACECs and DWMAs. But as 22 Steve has mentioned before, the new IM coming up, 23 Instructional Memorandum I believe it's called, is 24 going to possibly redirect that so that based upon the 25 objectives of the ACEC, it may be compatible. A wind 195 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 development may be compatible on there. We are still 2 not certain about solar. That's still being 3 developed. 4 Looking at the impacts on the desert, some 5 of them are going to be substantial, changing 6 landscapes. So that's why each one of the solar 7 projects are requiring an EIS. Plus they are going to 8 have to tier towards the Programatic EIS, which we are 9 developing -- hopefully developing best management 10 practices for. They are going to have to upgrade 11 nearby communities with upgrades to existing roads, 12 transmission lines and infrastructure. 13 Transmission is a huge dog in this fight 14 that we haven't even touched yet. Because what we are 15 hearing from California Energy Commission is that you 16 think about -- everybody is familiar with the Sunrise 17 Power Link. If you think about that power link, that 18 500 kv line, in order for us to compensate for all the 19 projects we are trying to get done in California, we 20 need seven more of those across Southern California. 21 That's what the Energy Commission is estimating, seven 22 more of those 500 kv lines. So how do you get power 23 from A to B if you don't have lines there? So that's 24 huge. 25 MEMBER SHUMWAY: And it doesn't transmit 196 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 at night. 2 MR. MILLER: Right. Some of it doesn't. 3 The wind does. 4 MEMBER SHUMWAY: Only if it's blowing. 5 MR. MILLER: So where are we going to 6 allow these areas to be developed and what conditions 7 is a huge challenge to BLM. We were -- before the 8 Programatic EIS came in, we were thrown all these 9 applications. We had 78 to 80 applications even 10 before the Programatic EIS said stop. And then we had 11 to let more in because it was just one of those 12 things. We said okay. We want to hold off until we 13 get the PEIS done. But what happened is that 14 Washington said no, no, no. We are going to go ahead 15 and allow more applications to come in while we are 16 developing PEIS. California was already saturated. 17 Nevada had half of what they do now. So they have 18 doubled since that injunction or moratorium was 19 lifted. 20 Of course, you need to recognize concerns 21 about impacts to the desert's environment and other 22 traditional uses of public lands including OHV 23 recreation. So we are looking at everything. And the 24 EIS, because it allows a 90-day public comment period 25 because it's a land use plan amendment, that's a good 197 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 time to be able to -- and in these meetings and 2 talking with Ed and talking with Meg, it's a good time 3 to listen to whatever is going on out there. 4 All right. So if you want to write down 5 real quick where these are at, I will leave it up for 6 a minute. But if you don't want to, I think you can 7 get this somewhere. 8 CHAIRMAN MABEN: It will be in the 9 minutes. 10 MR. MILLER: I could e-mail. This is 11 slides. Just the slide. It shows you where to get 12 the BLM info. Where our renewable energy site is. 13 Where the wind EIS is. Where the corridor EIS is. 14 Final geothermal and solar energy and who I am. Oh, 15 wait. That's not me. Steve Borchard. That's not who 16 I am. That's all I have. 17 MEMBER RUDNICK: On the concentrated 18 solar power, how much water is used in the different 19 type of processes? 20 MR. MILLER: Good question. We are 21 finding it depends on the technology. Some are using 22 dry cooling, which they don't use water at all. Some 23 are using a lot of water, and we are not through the 24 plans of development. We haven't found equilibrium, 25 happy medium anywhere. I couldn't tell you the 198 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 numbers, but there are large numbers that say how many 2 acre feet per year compared to maybe very little acre 3 feet per year, depending on the dry cooling. Now, 4 Stirling -- can you help me out, Al? 5 MR. STEIN: Either three or seven acre 6 feet. 7 MR. MILLER: For the whole project? 8 MR. STEIN: Yes, and it's primarily for 9 washing -- 10 MR. MILLER: They are using it to wash 11 the mirrors. 12 MEMBER RUDNICK: I hear just the other 13 day that the one at Kramer Junction that still uses a 14 million gallons of water a day. I don't know how many 15 acre feet that is, but a million gallons is a lot of 16 water. 17 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Excuse me. That's 18 exceeding. 19 MEMBER SCHILLER: But it has a big 20 cooling tower there. 21 MEMBER RUDNICK: They cool the steam, 22 but the net loss was a million gallons a day. 23 MR. MILLER: I don't remember what they 24 said. I just toured that site three weeks ago. 25 MEMBER RUDNICK: It seems to me that 199 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 some of those things should be considered and they 2 have to be considered. 3 MR. MILLER: Yes, and that's a huge 4 issue that the public brought up in the scoping 5 sessions for the PEIS. Water is a huge issue because 6 in the desert, there is very little water to be able 7 to use for cooling or any other resource that you need 8 out there. So, yeah, I mean, for dry cooling would be 9 maybe a technology that would maybe go through easier 10 because it doesn't use water, rather than wet cooling. 11 But we have to look at all technologies in order to 12 figure out where we are going to go. 13 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Can somebody get the 14 lights back on? 15 MEMBER GUNN: I've talked to Bright 16 Source people. And from what I understand, that 17 technology that they are using with those power towers 18 is experimental. And the company that originally 19 thought of this idea went bankrupt. And now it's a 20 new company. And is any of this taken into 21 consideration -- oh, and also, the environmental 22 impact, someone said, well we should have a minimum 23 environmental impact, if possible. But when I talked 24 to them, they said 95 percent of the land is 25 bulldozed, so I don't know how you could have a 200 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 minimum environmental impact. 2 MR. MILLER: No, it all depends on the 3 technology. As far as the power towers go, Daggett -- 4 there's a site out at Daggett that had a power tower 5 for 20 years now. So that's been using the same 6 technology. There might not be molten salt. It might 7 be a different liquid they are heating up. 8 MEMBER GUNN: Right. And what they are 9 doing is they have a boiler on top of that tower where 10 everything has to be directed towards that boiler. 11 MR. MILLER: Same with the others. It 12 has to be directed toward the top of the tower. 13 MEMBER GUNN: What I read was they are 14 about 60 feet tall. 15 MR. MILLER: Oh, yeah. Definitely the 16 Daggett tower is shorter than what is going to be at 17 Ivanpah. 18 MEMBER GUNN: I imagine you know more 19 than I do about the molten salt, but I was told it was 20 oil. 21 MR. MILLER: From what I read, it's 22 molten salt. 23 MR. MATTHEWS: It could be either. 24 CHAIRMAN MABEN: One at a time. We have 25 to let our court reporter catch up. 201 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 THE REPORTER: If you want this down, 2 one at a time. 3 CHAIRMAN MABEN: No more questions, but 4 you can catch him after he is done. How is that? 5 Better be quick. 6 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: I notice from your 7 maps it looks like a lot of Native American lands are 8 not part of this. You may not know the answer. Are 9 these companies trying to also gain access to the 10 tribal lands, or are they not interested, or how is 11 that working out? 12 MR. MILLER: I haven't heard of anybody 13 trying to place a project or apply for a project on 14 tribal lands at this time. What we are looking at is 15 just the BLM-administered lands. There may be some -- 16 there may be some negotiations later for tribal lands 17 for some of the companies, but I haven't heard of that 18 yet. 19 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: When you look at 20 those four states, you have a tremendous amount of 21 tribal lands. 22 MEMBER SHUMWAY: The tribal lands, they 23 are going to ask an arm and leg. If I had my own land 24 and they came to me, I would negotiate some kind of 25 arm and leg for them. But am I to understand then 202 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 that the proposals that are being submitted right now 2 do not have transmission facilities already planned as 3 part of their proposal? 4 MR. MILLER: No. All of their proposals 5 must have at least some sort of an idea, identifying 6 where they are going to transmit their power from/to. 7 MEMBER SHUMWAY: But let's assume that 8 the process goes forward and they get to a point where 9 they have to -- where they are actually going to get a 10 permit or you are thinking of issuing a permit. At 11 that time they would have to have transmission in 12 place? 13 MR. MILLER: They would have to have 14 what's called a Systems Interconnect Study, 15 interconnectability Study. They would have to have 16 that done. And that's what the Cal-ISO, California 17 Independent Systems Operators does. They would also 18 have to have power purchase agreements in place, and 19 that's with the company that they are going to sell 20 their power to. They cannot have a grant for that 21 project until they have those two things in place for 22 sure. 23 MEMBER SHUMWAY: So that assumes that if 24 the taxpayers allow them to go forward with whatever 25 compensation they get, taxpayers are going to be 203 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 assured that this is going to be a viable project? 2 MR. MILLER: Correct. That's the other 3 thing we are looking at too. It's not just about 4 environment. It's not just about humans. It's about 5 whether they can -- actually this project is viable. 6 Can they do it? So right now California Independent 7 Systems Operators are charging 250,000 dollars just to 8 do the study. Now, if they don't have control of the 9 land, another 250,000 to get that. None of these 10 projects have control of the land because we haven't 11 issued a grant to them. So that's 500,000 dollars to 12 start, just to get in the queue, just to be assured 13 that they will get studied. That's huge bucks for me. 14 That's Steve's salary. 15 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Steve, you are 16 buying dinner tonight. 17 MR. MILLER: That's just to get started. 18 So what we are thinking and the BLM is thinking is 19 that a lot of these companies who have thrown their 20 hat into the ring are going to see this and say, Whoa, 21 it costs too much for me. I'm going to back out. So 22 we are looking at 78 applications or 77 applications 23 on the CDD. Who knows how many are going to go 24 through, but it's probably unlikely that all of them 25 are going to go through. Any other questions from the 204 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 Council? 2 CHAIRMAN MABEN: That's it. I think you 3 are done. 4 MR. MILLER: All right. Thank you very 5 much. 6 MEMBER BANIS: Thank you. 7 (Applause from the audience.) 8 CHAIRMAN MABEN: This brings us to 9 Firewood and Off Highway Vehicle Noise issues. 10 MR. ALLEN: Terry Allen. I'm a law 11 enforcement officer at the Ridgecrest office, and I 12 was asked to speak about firewood and noise issues on 13 public land. And I can only speak for what is 14 happening at the Ridgecrest field office. I'm not 15 privy to what is going on at the CDD. 16 The firewood issue pertains to burning of 17 pallets, and I understand at the Ridgecrest office we 18 don't have a supplemental rule at this time where we 19 can enforce that happening on public land. I believe 20 there is only one resource area in CDD and that would 21 be the Barstow office that has that right now. 22 We do use -- at the Ridgecrest office we 23 use other laws under the CFR's to help curtail the 24 burning of pallets. And I know over the years I have 25 seen less pallets out there, and I think that helps. 205 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 The trick was finding everybody in the area in the 2 resource area or Jawbone or Dove Springs that are 3 intending on burning them. 4 What we do is we talk to them, we explain 5 the problems with it. A lot of times what I do is I 6 tell them that if I come back and I find nails, we 7 will cite them for littering. And if you think you 8 can get all the nails out from the fire pits, go 9 ahead. 10 We usually take pictures and I will write 11 down license plates and it has been working. And I 12 have seen a lot less pallets. We talked about doing 13 it even more to get out there and make sure that 14 everybody knows that we are aware of it and we will be 15 watching. 16 As far as the noise issues, I know -- I 17 believe the law was passed in 2003, noise issues, 18 sound issues on motorcycles and quads. We have been 19 doing courtesy checks for about five years that I know 20 of. We have three instruments in our office that we 21 can check. I believe we have four or three officers 22 that are qualified to do the checks and one park 23 ranger. I know the last couple years what we have 24 been doing, we have been doing Greensticker 25 checkpoints where we check for Greenstickers. And if 206 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 we have an officer available, we will do sound checks 2 as well. 3 And every year we have been stepping up our 4 enforcement on it. We have been getting more 5 violations every year. We've talked recently about 6 doing that again this year at checkpoints, so 7 hopefully we will probably get more violations. 8 We have been basically doing an educational 9 deal. We have been trying to educate people about the 10 sound issues, and it seems to be working. But it's 11 hard to enforce unless we do check points and stop 12 people. That's about all I have for those two 13 questions. 14 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: What is the db base 15 line or what is the db that's acceptable? 16 MR. ALLEN: It's 96 decibels for 17 anything after 1986. And it's 101 before 1986. There 18 is another decibel level. It's the same decibel 19 level, but it deals with the year -- it's the off- 20 track motorcycle quads. But it's 98. 21 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: On that, can one 22 get a special permit to exceed that. 23 MR. ALLEN: Not that I know of, no. 24 MEMBER HOLIDAY: We have huge issues 25 with pallets in El Centro. Is it possible for you to 207 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 write down the CFR or what you are citing on and get 2 that to the people in El Centro? 3 MR. ALLEN: I was just there for 4 Halloween and I did talk to that individual. We use a 5 littering law. There are several of them that you can 6 use. The trick is to make sure that they see you 7 write down the license plate or you take their 8 identification. And you write that down and you tell 9 them you are going to come back and check. I have 10 come back and raked it. And I have seen it's spotless 11 and it's the cleanest pit I have ever seen. So it 12 does work. Taking pictures helps a lot, too, if you 13 take pictures of the pallets if it does go to court. 14 You have to have all your ducks in a row. But it's 15 just basically a littering law. 16 MEMBER BANIS: What makes the OHV so 17 loud, the manufacturers or the after market? 18 MR. ALLEN: Most of them have silencers, 19 but some of them take them off. 20 MEMBER BANIS: So it's users? 21 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: When they come from 22 the factory they have to be a certain db level. It's 23 20-inch test, it's a 50-inch that the DBA requires. 24 So everything that comes out that has a Greensticker 25 is 96 dba. Most people, they modify it or take the 208 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 core out, and that's how it comes out. 2 MEMBER SCHILLER: I'm just curious, now 3 that you bring this up. Is this unique to BLM or is 4 the Forest Service have the restrictions? I know they 5 can be very irritating when I'm out there. 6 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: I don't think they 7 have their own -- 8 MR. ALLEN: It's a California state law. 9 MEMBER SCHILLER: Then it would apply to 10 Forest Service. 11 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: I know that Bill 12 Dart is trying to work to get Forest Service to get 13 their own regulations for that, I believe. 14 MEMBER SHUMWAY: Am I to understand that 15 they can burn pallets if they pull all the nails out? 16 MR. ALLEN: They can burn the wood if 17 they can pull all the nails out. Then it's no longer 18 a pallet. It's just wood. 19 MEMBER SHUMWAY: But if they pull it out 20 of the fire pit, then that's not illegal. It's only 21 after they burn it and leave stuff behind? 22 MR. ALLEN: When they leave it behind, 23 yeah. I have asked people not to and explained why. 24 And I have seen them hauling out their pallets at the 25 end of the weekend. It's a matter of contacting and 209 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 educating people. 2 MEMBER SHUMWAY: It's the residue that's 3 important? 4 MR. ALLEN: It's the nails left behind. 5 MEMBER GUNN: Why is it or is it -- is 6 that just the off-road group that burns pallets? Why 7 not bring firewood out? 8 MR. ALLEN: I'm not going to say it's 9 just the off-road group, but we see it mostly on the 10 OHV areas. A lot of them work at construction sites. 11 I have talked to them. You will see a lot of old 12 construction wood from framing houses and whatnot. 13 And I have actually said I would love that piece of 14 lumber, but they are going to burn it. 15 MEMBER GUNN: Just curious. 16 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Any other questions? 17 Thank you very much for your patience. You took a 18 long time to get here. 19 Next we have Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation 20 Area trash. Who is talking trash? 21 MR. STEWARD: I'm Daniel Steward, the 22 resource branch chief in El Centro, and I'm going to 23 talk to you all about the trash collection in Imperial 24 Sand Dunes. 25 As you are aware, Imperial Sand Dunes is an 210 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 extremely busy OHV recreation area; thus, we have lots 2 of issues with garbage and trash. We have done a lot 3 of different things to try to manage trash, ranging 4 from just the regular 33-gallon trash cans all the way 5 up to the big 40-yard dumpsters. Currently we are 6 using little six-yard dumpsters, and everything has 7 its own pros and cons. As you can see here, those 8 were the 40-yard dumpsters and we had a lot of trash 9 piled on the ground after holiday weekends and stuff. 10 A lot of this is because the old 40-yard 11 dumpsters weren't ADA compliant. It's hard to throw 12 your trash up and over. They weren't covered. We had 13 problems with people going through and digging out 14 cans and things like that. It was kind of a 15 nightmare, and after every holiday weekend we had a 16 couple days' labor from all of our park rangers out 17 there to pick up this mess. 18 So anyway, now with some of the economic 19 conditions we are seeing and with the increase of fuel 20 costs, increased inflation, things like that, we are 21 going to be stopping our trash collection as of 22 February 1st. 23 You can see here we have the six-yard bins 24 we are currently using. And this helped clean up the 25 dunes a great deal because now with the six-yard bins 211 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 we had multiple dumpings per day, and that increased 2 our capacity and kept a lot of the trash off the 3 ground. But one of the problems with this is it's 4 expensive. Our cost is running about 400,000 dollars 5 a year. These were off contracts that were let about 6 five years ago, so these prices were negotiated a few 7 years back, so any subsequent contracts we are going 8 to do are going to be much higher with the increases 9 in fuel costs and inflation and stuff like that. 10 And we have also seen some pretty 11 significant drops in our fee revenues, decreases in 12 visitation because it's really expensive to get out 13 there with the RV and stuff right now because of fuel 14 costs. So the bottom line is we can't afford to keep 15 paying the 400,000 dollars or more to keep the trash 16 service and maintain the other levels of services that 17 we need to provide out in the dunes. 18 So we know that having the service like 19 that for the public and then taking it away, this is a 20 really risky thing for us. And we don't want to have 21 dunes trashed and we want to maintain all of the 22 levels of service out there. So we embarked on a 23 major public outreach campaign, working with a lot of 24 our partners, ASA, United Desert Gateway, Imperial 25 County. All these other groups have been really 212 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 instrumental in helping us get the word out to the 2 public. We have been focusing on how do you pack it 3 in, pack it home. So when you come back to the dunes, 4 be prepared to bring your trash bags back home to 5 dispose of through your municipal trash service. 6 We worked with United Desert Gateway and 7 ASA on developing the outreach plan. This plan kind 8 of outlined how we would get information out and kind 9 of divide and conquer with our labor and efforts to 10 try to reach as many people as possible. 11 We have put together some brochures here -- 12 I have a few out front -- on the cost of trash. It 13 talks about some of the reasons behind why we are 14 having to end our trash service, as well as some of 15 the benefits behind relieving the trash service out 16 there. We have worked with United Desert Gateway on 17 their annual publication. And on page 6 of this 18 little newspaper, we have a big flyer in there about 19 the end of the trash service as well as signs next to 20 all of our dumpster letting the public know as of 21 February 1st the dumpsters will not be there. We've 22 done radio shows, talk shows. The motor sports talk 23 show in San Diego, one of our spokesmen went up there 24 and did an interview with them and as much outreach as 25 we can possibly do with some of the public meetings, 213 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 such as the Sand Force Super Show in Costa Mesa. 2 We are still working with all of our 3 partners and looking for more partners to try and keep 4 the word going out. And if any of you know of any Web 5 sites or anything like that that we don't have this 6 advertised on, let us know. And we can get you 7 information that we can try and get it out to as broad 8 a market as possible. 9 We are currently trying to work with some 10 private landowners and private businesses out in the 11 Imperial Sand Dunes to try and work out some more 12 solutions to maybe getting some private trash 13 collection or something like that. It's in the early 14 phases. 15 One of the key components of trying to have 16 success out of this is going to be enforcement. And 17 we are going to be out in force with law enforcement 18 and park rangers contacting people and letting them 19 know about the trash service and writing citations if 20 folks are not complying. So enforcement is going to 21 be a very serious issue for us this year and in the 22 future to try and make this program work. We are 23 really depending on our users to be responsible and 24 help us out, and we are really hopeful. 25 And there are a few benefits to this. One 214 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 of the major things we are getting at is we are in 2 pretty tough economic times impacting everyone. And 3 we want to maintain the safety of our users out there. 4 We want to maintain a pleasurable experience, protect 5 the environment. And elimination of this trash 6 service is all in an effort to allow us to balance our 7 budget and still maintain the level of service that we 8 have right now. So thank you very much for your time. 9 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Any questions? 10 MEMBER BANIS: Just a stupid one. I 11 take it that the savings of 400,000 a year will result 12 in lower fees for our users down there and greater 13 access for the public? 14 MR. STEWARD: We are hoping it's going 15 to create an increase in fees. 16 MEMBER BANIS: Just as long as I get my 17 point in to lower the fees, better for the public. 18 MEMBER RUDNICK: Can I make one quick 19 comment? In the Jawbone Dove Springs areas which is 20 heavily used by off-road vehicles, has there ever been 21 a trash -- 22 MR. WALDHEIM: The major holidays we put 23 two dumpsters at the Jawbone station and two big 24 dumpsters at C-94, the entrance. Monday comes around, 25 they get removed immediately. Everything else is pack 215 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 it in and pack it out. 2 MEMBER RUDNICK: My point is it's one of 3 the cleaner areas I have seen. They really do pack it 4 out and on a consistent basis there is not the 5 dumpsters there only on major weekends, but people 6 take care of it. 7 MR. WALDHEIM: Just on the holidays. 8 MEMBER RUDNICK: People take care of it 9 pretty good. 10 MR. STEWARD: We get an incredible 11 amount of support from our user communities with trash 12 cleanup. 13 CHAIRMAN MABEN: You had a comment? 14 MR. HAMBY: We also provide money to 15 Inyo and Kern counties for assistance with dumpster 16 use in this area up here. So we are cooperating with 17 them and we do pay them out of our pockets. It 18 doesn't come out of any user fees but out of BLM base 19 dollars. 20 CHAIRMAN MABEN: All right. That brings 21 us to Fire Planning Update. Do you want a short 22 break? 23 (Afternoon break was taken from 24 2:53 p.m. to 2:57 p.m.) 25 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Back in session. We 216 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 have fire planning update. Sue, you are on. Listen 2 up, Gerry. 3 MS. ROCHA: Hi, everyone. Sue Rocha, 4 deputy fire management officer at the CDD. 5 Anyway, it says on the schedule that I'm 6 here to talk about fire planning, but fire planning in 7 my definition will bore you to death. So -- because 8 we are actually doing a federal fire planning program 9 right now and it's just crazy. 10 But I think the fire -- I read through the 11 transcripts from your previous meeting you guys had. 12 And so I'm going to go through that because you guys 13 had certain questions, and I think that's why I'm here 14 today. But basically you know, I'm going to answer 15 questions. But if you would allow me just a few 16 minutes and I will go through what I think your 17 concerns were in your last meeting. And I think it 18 was a division between two topics: One would be a 19 fire preparedness operations topic and the other one 20 would be more of a community assistance, fire 21 mitigation, Fire Safe Council topic. So they are 22 divided into two definitions there. 23 Anyway, as far as the Fire Safe Council, 24 Community Awareness Planning and Preparedness, 25 prevention and fuels mitigation work hand and hand. 217 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 And I know in the California Desert District, we have 2 a pretty big -- especially in the southern end of the 3 CDD realm, we have a pretty big mitigation, fuels 4 mitigation and prevention program. And those guys go 5 to many Fire Safe Council meetings with the 6 communities. 7 And thank you, John Kalish, because I read 8 through the transcript and you gave a pretty good 9 definition of what Fire Safe Council meant and what 10 community assistance meant. And thank you for that. 11 So he pretty much summed it up for you guys last time. 12 But our fire mitigation people go to the 13 meetings, and it's people like yourselves that go to 14 these Fire Safe Councils and give us concerns. You 15 guys are the ones that come up with the projects. 16 Maybe you guys have an area of concern, you know, such 17 as thick vegetation. And of course, California's high 18 fire danger. So you come to us and we get together 19 and we prioritize as far as the whole state of 20 California. But within the CDD, we prioritize these 21 projects and we come up with funding and we apply -- 22 well, not we, but you guys as community members, you 23 guys apply for the grants and get some money. And we 24 help you guys get contractors and maybe even we could 25 get some fire crews in there and we work hand and hand 218 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 with Cal Fire and the county fire departments. They 2 are big cooperators with us. 3 So it's not just solely us, BLM. Of 4 course, we have cooperation with all the agencies and 5 actually county and the state. And the county guys, 6 they are a big player because they are actually 7 responsible for the private lands and around in the 8 communities. But we are there to help get all these 9 projects going. 10 So as far as the Fire Safe Councils, yeah, 11 we have numerous Fire Safe Councils. I know in the 12 northern part of this Eastern Kern County, I was the 13 fire mitigation person that worked out of the 14 Ridgecrest field office a few years back and working 15 with Mike Antonucci, who was the fire chief at the 16 time, we worked diligently to work in this area, Cal 17 City, Northern Mojave, all the way up through this 18 whole area. Twice we sent out fliers to all local 19 businesses and some of the -- I think, you know, 20 supervisors. And I guess timing wasn't right or 21 whatever. We didn't get many responses back at all. 22 Since then I know Mike Antonucci went to a 23 different job somewhere down south, but anyway we did 24 try to get a Fire Safe Council going in this area with 25 Kern County and Cal City Fire Departments. And I 219 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 think they are still trying. It's a struggle. 2 Everybody is so spread out it's really hard. And 3 there might not be the concerns out here in this 4 desert area that we might have in some other areas. 5 But I know that was a question I think 6 directed to Hector. But I know we are still working 7 on that, still trying to get a -- we are going to call 8 it, with the Eastern Kern County, Eastern Kern County 9 Fire Safe Council as a specific. But we are still 10 working on that. 11 Let's see. What else? I think I covered 12 most of the Fire Safe Council questions. As far as 13 fire preparedness, preparing in a fire operations 14 situation, we do in the springtime, even before spring 15 because everybody knows in California, especially in 16 the desert communities, our fire season can start in 17 the spring and go year-round. But look what is 18 happening right now? And I will give you guys a fire 19 update if anybody is interested when I'm done. 20 But anyway, so in springtime there are 21 operations planning agreements. We have agreements 22 with the US Forest Service, the Angeles Forest, Cleveland 23 Forest, San Bernardino Forest, Inyo National Forest 24 and Cal Fire, Kern County Fire Department, Riverside 25 Ranger Unit Cal Fire, San Bernardino Ranger Unit Cal 220 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 Fire. We have cooperating agreements with all these 2 folks, and we separately in all these different zones 3 have springtime meetings, Ops meetings. Who is 4 responsible for what; who's going to help with what; 5 what kind of staffing we have; how many engines; 6 helicopters we are going to have; air tankers. 7 So we all kind of get together and have 8 meetings supposedly before fire season starts. And so 9 then we know what kind of resources everybody has out 10 there. And at that time, too, we talk about what kind 11 of fuels programs we do have going on as well. So we 12 have these Ops meetings and hopefully a lot of 13 questions get answered as far as preparedness at that 14 time. 15 And then -- and another concern reading 16 through your transcripts of last meeting was large 17 fire. Large fire. I think there was a local fire up 18 here. Some ranch owners had some questions regarding 19 large fire Ops. So I know that when these large fires 20 happen anywhere, but in the desert, because we are 21 talking about California desert, a team comes in, a 22 separate team probably from somewhere else. If it's a 23 smaller fire, it will be a small localized team. And 24 we always have a base camp or a base situation set up 25 somewhere in an office. We always have community 221 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 meetings. We are always inviting the community to 2 come in and voice their concerns. 3 So just, for instance, the particular fire 4 that was in question, it was a large team, a Type 1 5 team. And there is public meetings, and we try to 6 announce them in the newspapers, on the radios, 7 whatever, where the meetings are going to be. You are 8 always welcome to come into our fire camp and ask. We 9 try to also vocalize when our AAR, After Action 10 Review -- we always have an After Action Review of a 11 large fire or even a small fire, any, actually, hazard 12 situation. 13 But in this large fire realm we have AAR, 14 After Action Review, and the public and the concerned 15 citizens are welcome to come to these AAR meetings and 16 voice concerns. I know there was concern with some 17 resource advisors that might not have been 18 coordinating as well as we probably should have 19 anticipated. But this is a place that you can voice 20 your concerns in these AAR meetings. And there we 21 just learn from maybe our mistakes, and then we try to 22 not make those mistakes in the future. 23 So that's a big -- that's a big planning 24 tool that we have. Public meetings. Feel free to 25 come to these meetings during our large fires or even 222 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 small fires. You can go to the local district, local 2 field offices and voice your concerns. 3 But as far as preplanning -- and all these 4 teams that get together for these large fires like 5 this last fire season, of course, Northern California 6 was overwhelmed. But we try to prepare the best that 7 we can. The teams get together and we do scenarios. 8 We do tabletop exercises. We really try our best. 9 It's so hard. Fire behavior, we try to predict it as 10 much as we can. But as you know looking down south, 11 when the wind kicks in, they couldn't even fly the 12 aircraft until 12 o'clock today because it was 60, 80 13 miles an hour down in Southern California. And even 14 then, the aircraft -- it's hard with the wind. The 15 fire is just going and going. And we don't want to 16 put anybody out there in front because that's very 17 dangerous. I don't want my buddies, I don't want the 18 public to get hurt. 19 And that's another thing with evacuation 20 that came up in your last meeting. And there again, 21 it's safety. I know we ask residents to evacuate. We 22 ask them. We cannot force them to. You were free to 23 stay. Some of these homes or ranches that are out 24 away from maybe major municipal water sources, my 25 suggestion is work with Fire Safe Councils and get 223 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 something going, have your own hydrants. Have your 2 own little system. And you can stay in there. You 3 can stay in place if you have done your weed 4 abatement, cleaned your leaves out of gutters because 5 actually, well-done fire, it's not the flames hitting 6 your homes and burning your house down. It's a mile 7 away. It's a little ember that gets up in the smoke 8 column, a little tiny thing that blows up in the air 9 and blows a mile away and lands in your gutters 10 because you didn't clean your gutters out. And that's 11 what is going to get your house. And your eaves 12 underneath your home, the older homes, the embers get 13 up into your attic, and we can't see that, plus there 14 is not that many fires resources to go to every single 15 structure. 16 That's really hard for us. We wish we 17 could go to every structure. It's hard for us to see 18 a fire this little in an attic. If we could get to it 19 we would. So we ask the people to clean their 20 gutters, clean vegetation away from your house, trees 21 overhanging. Go to these Fire Safe Council meetings, 22 a lot of the stuff is on-line. You can dial up Fire 23 Safe Council and it's great information. Anyway, I 24 kind of went on a tangent there. 25 Yeah, you can tell that I'm excited about 224 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 what I do for a living. So I think I covered 2 everything that I thought you guys had concerns with. 3 So now I'm prepared for you guys to hit me with 4 anything. 5 MEMBER CHARLTON: Could you comment on 6 your coordination with military bases? 7 MS. ROCHA: Yes. Matter of fact, I 8 think we are getting ready to sign something with 9 China Lake Fire in this local area. And while it's 10 very dangerous with the military -- are you talking 11 about the property specifically? 12 MEMBER CHARLTON: All the coordination 13 and also if military starts a fire, like, with a plane 14 crash. 15 MS. ROCHA: Their lands are very 16 dangerous. They have a lot of hazardous things around 17 in their property perimeter. And that's why a lot of 18 times -- and I can only speak from example being here 19 in this area, in China Lake, it's hard for us to cross 20 that line because of hazardous things. I don't know 21 specifically if they drop things out of their planes 22 and they parachute, and they just do crazy things. 23 And there are things on the ground that are hazardous. 24 So we don't want them and we don't want ourselves to 25 be wandering around and have something go wrong. 225 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 But when there is a fire on their land -- 2 and there were actually plane crashes on the China Lake 3 property -- what they do is they contact I think Kern 4 County, too, but I know that specifically because our 5 land is all adjacent to all their property, they 6 called our fire management officer in this area. And 7 they coordinated with him and asked him, hey, can you 8 assist us? And we did end up bringing a helicopter 9 in, and we worked on funding. And I haven't read the 10 proposed agreement right now, but we do work with them 11 hand in hand. 12 And as far as funding, I'm not sure how 13 that's working out. But we were able to help them. 14 The neat thing about their property is it's vast land. 15 There is not a lot of structures in the way if they do 16 end up starting a fire. So there is not a lot of life 17 and property that's at threat. So a lot of time we 18 can do water drops with aircraft up in the air, not 19 people on the ground, but up in the air and kind of 20 curtail and herd a fire. 21 And this ecosystem, ecosystems usually in 22 all military property, it's a desert ecosystem. And 23 usually when the sun goes down or the wind stops, the 24 fire pretty much dies down really good. And we can 25 get in there and hit it hard with aircraft. But we do 226 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 coordinate with them. All right. What else? 2 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Any other questions? 3 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Can we get a fire 4 update? 5 MS. ROCHA: Okay. That's important 6 stuff. Okay. There is a fire that started in the 7 Sylmar area. If you know the 210 freeway and the 5 8 freeway right there, a bit of trivia, that's the old 9 loop fire fatality area. Back in '66, there were some 10 folks that didn't have significant radio 11 communications. 12 Anyway, 5,000-plus acres. So the corner of 13 210 and 5. They are calling that the Sayre fire. 14 Then there was a multiple -- approximately five fire 15 starts in around the area of Corona. And hopefully, 16 there is nobody -- anyway it's going through the Santa 17 Ana drainages right now. The drainage of Santa Ana 18 Creek. Chino area too. But that one is giving them 19 some problems right now. 20 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Is 15 still open? 21 MS. ROCHA: I don't know that. I could 22 find that. 23 CHAIRMAN MABEN: 14 is not open. 24 MS. ROCHA: If you guys are going back 25 in those areas, I will find out. Before you guys 227 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 leave, I will get on the phone and talk to my 2 dispatch. I will be able to tell you guys. 3 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: I'm late because I 4 was checking on that. The Newhall Pass is still 5 closed. Part of the 91-71 still closed. Now there is 6 a fire in Anaheim Hills. I couldn't see what closures 7 are affecting that. 8 MR. WALDHEIM: You could still take 9 Angeles Crest. 10 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: I wouldn't say no. 11 Because I'll bet they are closing Angeles Crest 12 because fire is in the Angeles National Forest up to 13 Little Tujunga. 14 MS. ROCHA: On the other side of Tujunga 15 Drainage. 16 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: I'm sorry, I missed 17 it. 18 MS. ROCHA: Anaheim Hills is part of all 19 that Corona -- there was like five of them this 20 morning. But those are giving them a heck of a time 21 down there right now. The winds are still strong. 22 There is a new one in San Diego County. We 23 don't know if it's on the eastern side of San Diego, 24 but I'm not sure, but in the Monte Vista Ranger Unit 25 area for Cal Fire. So that's like the newest fire. I 228 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 don't have much information on that one. 2 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Still have the one in 3 Santa Barbara County? 4 MS. ROCHA: That one, of course. I 5 heard they are okay with that one because their winds 6 on that west side have died down a little bit. I 7 think they are kind of getting a handle. You never 8 know. 9 CHAIRMAN MABEN: It's all our resources 10 are there? 11 MS. ROCHA: Yeah. That was actually 12 something else in the last meeting or last 13 meeting you guys had. Somebody, it might have been 14 you, were talking about with all those fires that 15 happened all at once in California, that our resources 16 are spread thin. And then we bring resources from out 17 of the area, and they are staged to fight the initial 18 attack fires, new fires in an area, let's just say. 19 Well, what we do in that case, like say a 20 Northern California engine came down and covered for 21 this area right here. They are not familiar with this 22 area. There is a battalion or division chief within 23 the county or even BLM or Forest Service in a certain 24 area. What we do is we brief them. We give them 25 maps, phone numbers. We try to give them as much 229 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 information as we can. We give them street maps with 2 addresses and all that kind of stuff. So it tries to 3 prepare them better that they can be successful in an 4 initial attack. 5 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Sue, do any BLM 6 resources have fire assignments right now? 7 MS. ROCHA: Right now we are trying to 8 assemble a task force. Four of our engines, our 9 light engines and three of our Type 3 engines and the 10 water tender, we are putting all those together in the 11 California Desert District. And I don't know which 12 fire they are going to go to. But GAC, Geographic 13 Area Command down in Riverside, they are coordinating 14 and we are putting that together to assist in one of 15 the fires down there. 16 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Thank you very much. 17 MS. ROCHA: I will check on road 18 conditions because I think you guys are going to be 19 done pretty quick. So I will check on road conditions 20 and see what is closed. 21 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Appreciate it. Thank 22 you very much. Believe it or not, we are ready for 23 public comments. Brad, I know you have been patiently 24 waiting, and I thank you for that. 25 SUPERVISOR MITZELFELT: Brad Mitzelfelt, 230 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 County Supervisor, First District, San Bernardino 2 County. I know a lot of you. Not all of you. But I 3 think there is a great forum here. And so I'm glad I 4 attended today and I will attend more. 5 Just a few comments I would like to touch 6 on, issues of concern. I have about 8 million acres 7 of public land in my district, and that doesn't 8 include the military. I have all or part of the five 9 military bases on top of that. So a lot of federal 10 land and a lot of issues are pressing all at once. 11 As you know -- and it was discussed 12 today -- with the situation with the Marine Corps 13 Aircraft Combat Center proposing to expand. And we 14 are also dealing with the renewable energy projects 15 and that conflagration of those. It's quite an 16 interesting time to be in my position. 17 As a former Marine, looking at the 18 Twentynine Palms expansion, I understand the need for 19 it, would like to accommodate it; however, there are 20 two -- it's no secret -- there are two side effects, 21 both of which are unacceptable. One is an almost 22 complete loss of the Johnson Valley open area, which 23 is really critical for recreation and for economy in 24 the Morongo Basin and Lucerne Valley and out there. 25 And the other is the loss of Amboy Road, which is a 231 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 critical highway for my district and the residents in 2 my district in San Bernardino County. 3 So we will be very involved in the process, 4 as with the renewable energy projects. I spoke during 5 one of the scoping meetings from the PEIS process for 6 the solar. And one of the things I touched on was, as 7 you know, we have an MOU. We cooperate on a lot of 8 things, and one of them is protecting our groundwater 9 sources, our aquifers in unadjudicated desert basins. 10 And one of those basins happens to be in 11 the Ivanpah area and one that I'm very concerned about 12 because of the amount of water that Primm uses on the 13 Nevada side. There are competing uses that may 14 compete for the same water on the California side. So 15 that's something that I have been focusing a lot of 16 attention on. 17 In addition to that, I spoke about the need 18 to look -- and I'm glad you have this letter going out 19 with regard to the greenhouse gases, because that's 20 really where a lot of the impetus for the renewable 21 energy projects are coming in. We are dealing with 22 AB-32 at the county level. State passing AB-32 and 23 SB-375 have profound impacts on us as counties. My 24 county was sued by the attorney general over our 25 general plan. We settled and we set forth a process 232 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 for accounting for and taking credit for things that 2 we are doing to address greenhouse gas emissions. I 3 voted against that settlement, just for the record. 4 But the fact is that the vote was taken, so we are 5 doing it. 6 And I mentioned during the PEIS testimony 7 that we are going to be seeing about 100 square miles 8 of warehouses being built in San Bernardino and 9 Riverside County to accommodate goods movement from 10 international trade. And that's a lot of rooftops. 11 And so 20 to 30 percent of those rooftops potentially 12 will be located in Southern California in Victorville. 13 That is the former George Air Force base whose reuse 14 authority I chair. And I think I could be helpful in 15 making sure that those rooftops have solar panels on 16 them. And we need to take credit for that so that 17 when we look at the west and how much of the solar 18 burden is being carried, that it's not only desert we 19 are looking at. 20 If we have 200 applicants for solar in the 21 California desert, and let's say 10 percent of them 22 result in a power plant, that may be seen as not 23 meeting our share. They may say 20 solar power plants 24 might not meet your share. But don't forget about the 25 rooftops. 233 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 And don't forget about the possibility of 2 working with local government for the transmission 3 corridors. For instance, we are building a new 4 highway from Victorville to Palmdale, and we have a 5 Joint Powers Authority with Los Angeles County. And 6 we have set up that JPA so we can do utility 7 corridors; we can do rail; and we can do the highway, 8 the toll road that we want to do. And this project is 9 five years away from its first phase starting. And 10 it's something I think we should look at cooperation 11 on if you are looking for transmission corridors. 12 Another one would be if Amboy Road ends up 13 being realigned as a result of the eastward 14 portion of the expansion at the Marine base, then look 15 at that as a potential utility corridor. I prefer 16 that to using Route 66, for instance, which I believe 17 is currently the plan or one of the plans. 18 So with regard to, again, the Marine 19 expansion, I have proposed and I will be meeting with 20 the congressional members to talk about this, and some 21 people say it's a nonstarter. But I believe that we 22 have to look at all options. And I just wanted to get 23 on the record here that I believe that there is 24 potential for more areas in the eastward portion, such 25 as the Sheephole area and Cadiz Dunes where some of it 234 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 could be -- could remain wilderness and some of it 2 could become Marine base and it would have a lot less 3 conflict than we would see on the other side with 4 Johnson Valley. 5 60,000 acres I believe of private property 6 they would have to acquire. Lots of residences in 7 Lucerne Valley and Johnson Valley. Lots of impacts if 8 the Marines go into Johnson Valley. 800,000 visitors 9 a year go there, and it's something we really need to 10 keep, if at all possible. 11 So I think that the government really needs 12 to look at all the options. And the County of San 13 Bernardino is going to be engaged probably more than 14 you have ever seen in these issues. I'm committed to 15 that. My constituents expect that from me, and it's 16 going to be a challenge and a learning experience. 17 But so far, I appreciate the cooperation of the BLM 18 and I appreciate your attention today. Thank you. 19 (Applause from the audience.) 20 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Okay. Comment card 21 from David Matthews. David Matthews here? 22 MR. MATTHEWS: I need to stretch. Dave 23 Matthews, general public. 24 First of all, as a resident of Ridgecrest I 25 would like to welcome everybody here to the meeting. 235 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 We always welcome your dollars being spent here, 2 although nobody buys any of my stuff, even my words 3 sometimes, so it doesn't benefit me that much. 4 I had a question this morning and I got 5 here too late to fill out a request for it. I forget 6 that was the procedure. But my question is regarding 7 Surprise Canyon management plan or whatever it is. 8 Why is it taking so damn long? We have gone through I 9 don't know how many different Desert Advisory 10 Managers, numerous public affairs officers. It's the 11 speed of government, and somehow we've got to learn 12 how to speed that up. 13 Ron probably remembers when the area got 14 closed over there. I don't remember exactly, but I 15 know it's been a long time. I'm getting old. I would 16 like to see it resolved before I leave. For those 17 that may not remember or don't know, you can go down 18 here to the Historical Society and probably see some 19 pictures. You used to be able to drive up that canyon 20 all the way up to Panamint City and beyond in a 21 two-wheel drive vehicle. Now, you guys were over 22 there and you saw what it takes now. 23 I still think we need a route up in there. 24 Unfortunately, they probably didn't leave enough 25 cherry stem out of that whole mess. But there was a 236 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 road there and that was part of the history of this 2 area and this country. It was built by the miners up 3 there, and I don't know why we can't rebuild it, put 4 something in that resembles it. 5 I think Mr. Waldheim was rather gracious 6 this morning in his apology for his sell-out statement 7 because -- and for the people here present, that may 8 have been appropriate. But I have seen and others in 9 this room have seen when the higher levels, DAC, we 10 get sold out. And maybe it's the Congress, maybe it's 11 whoever. But there has been too much of that because 12 back there, eventually -- and one of them was the 13 solicitors. They cave in. And we are the public. We 14 have as much right as these special interest groups. 15 And Mr. Banis hit it right on the head this morning in 16 his comment that the general public generally is 17 getting the short end of the straw. And mainly 18 because we are individuals. We like to go out on our 19 own. We don't have the time or resources to join a 20 group, which takes a lot of organization. And some of 21 these other groups I think are getting themselves -- 22 their members sold short by their leadership. 23 Okay. I kind of resented the fact that you 24 didn't take questions after each presentation from the 25 public because some of the people are already gone. 237 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 And some of us don't write down questions that arise 2 at the time. 3 However, with regard to the renewable 4 energy, I do have some comments to make. Of course 5 County Supervisor with San Bernardino right here hit 6 something right on the head that I was going to 7 mention. As far as solar is concerned, we are 8 looking, as big government always does, at the big, 9 widespread major projects. Well, I got news for you. 10 Solar energy doesn't have to be a big project. We 11 have lots of roofs around. We've got lots of parking 12 lots. In fact, the City of Ridgecrest has been 13 looking at something like that right now for their 14 complex. It can be distributed. 15 And a number of meetings back, Sam Burke 16 and I coming back from one meeting down below, we said 17 why don't we put solar energy panels on all these 18 transmission towers already existing? Well, nobody 19 said anything about trying to do that. It's entirely 20 feasible. Distribute energy generation. 21 And if the BLM needs some advice in that 22 particular area, there has been an association in 23 existence for a very long, long time, probably even 24 longer than I have, really, called the American Solar 25 Energy Society. They are -- they have a Web site. 238 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 They have been into this stuff for many, many years. 2 And some of these things that I have already 3 mentioned, the rooftops, the local individual solar 4 panels, they are already out there. They are being 5 used. 6 One comment on the Stirling engine. 7 Stirling engine has been around for a long time. 8 Probably just the technology has been improved 9 recently. And I think the gas is really helium and 10 not hydrogen. What it is, is just the same thing as 11 your combustion engine in your car except it's closed 12 cycle. The gas doesn't go out. And it's heated and 13 recooled again. In fact, about a month or two ago, a 14 gentleman here in town who was interested in solar 15 energy for many years, he had a little parabolic 16 mirror set up at one of the meetings I attended, 17 Stirling engine mounted on the top. It sounded like a 18 little put-put lawn mower going. And you could attach 19 a generator or whatever you want to the back of that 20 thing, and it will generate your electricity or turn 21 your still or whatever you want to hook it up to. In 22 fact, I think I will look into that. 23 Okay. Let's see. What else do I have 24 here? Oh. As far as the wild fires, this may not 25 necessarily have anything to do with planning, but I 239 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 am very concerned that in many of the cases where the 2 Forest Service and the BLM get together, they are 3 really not going by the same policies. And what I am 4 citing is that -- I think it was last summer we had a 5 fire up here in the Sierras and they let it burn. 6 Well, that's fine, except that all that smoke came 7 over here and started causing breathing problems for 8 the humans in the valley and up north, you know. And 9 it's causing health problems. You have to consider 10 what the fires are doing when you let them burn. The 11 human element is too often left out. 12 I guess other than that -- oh, I forgot to 13 mention I usually try to make the field tours, but I 14 have a family situation now where I can't leave very 15 long or too far away, and I didn't make the one 16 yesterday. I was hoping to maybe join you folks for 17 dinner last night, but I didn't know where it was 18 going to be until I called Ron Schiller's wife and 19 found out it was going to be out there at the 20 Pinnacles. And I said I can't get out there for it. 21 But I'm jealous. Next time you have a barbecue here 22 in town. And we can make a burro for them. 23 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Thank you, David. 24 Okay. Sophia Merk. 25 MEMBER SCHILLER: I would like to make a 240 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 quick comment regarding something that David 2 mentioned. When Ron Kemper was the chair, this was 3 always an issue on the public having questions. By 4 the time they get to ask their question, the resource 5 person is gone. And Ron during his chair, we 6 established that we would have a brief question period 7 for the public after each item. 8 CHAIRMAN MABEN: We are trying to 9 finetune the program. 10 MEMBER SCHILLER: I understand that, but 11 I think that was very good to continue that, if you 12 could. 13 CHAIRMAN MABEN: It's good to have the 14 public comment. So Sophia. 15 SOPHIA MERK: My name is Sophia Merk. I 16 live here in Ridgecrest. I wanted to welcome you guys 17 to Ridgecrest. It's been a hard battle to get you 18 guys back up here. It's been a couple years. And it 19 would be really, really nice if the DAC committee 20 could schedule their meetings and go to each district 21 and do it on a -- instead of holding them all down at 22 where the CDD is and all that. 23 But one of the things that makes this group 24 so wonderful is the diversity in this group. Asking 25 questions from the mining, asking questions from 241 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 public-at-large and commenting on how some of these 2 meetings are being held for the public, because the 3 public is what makes up public lands. And sometimes 4 we forget that. 5 One of the things I would like to comment 6 on is Surprise Canyon. I know that -- I just want to 7 comment briefly on that. 8 CHAIRMAN MABEN: On what? 9 MS. MERK: On Surprise Canyon. And in 10 2001 there was a public notice put in the Federal 11 Register that an EIS would be forthcoming from the 12 BLM. Now, I understand today that it's going to be in 13 conjunction with Death Valley National Park. I truly 14 hope that the BLM also does it and not just leave it 15 up to Death Valley National Park and just write off on 16 it. That's all I have to say about that. 17 But one more thing I want to comment on, 18 too, is the Programatic EIS's coming up. I would like 19 to see in the verbiage of some of these Programatic 20 EISs that they have a review period every two to three 21 years. And the ones that I have read have not 22 specifically spelled that out, and they should because 23 technology changes. Just like we are finding out 24 information on the Stirling engines, how much water 25 it's going to use and how much water this one uses, as 242 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 technology develops, we need to find that information 2 out. So we need to have a review process for all 3 these Programatic EIS's. And thank you very much for 4 your time. 5 CHAIRMAN MABEN: John, did you want to 6 say anything else? 7 MR. STEWART: Yes. John Stewart, 8 natural resources consultant with California 9 Association of Four-Wheel Drive Clubs. 10 Over the last five or six or seven years 11 ago, there was major planning efforts undergone to 12 come up with the WEMO/NEMO/NECO and all these various 13 desert plans. We are far enough down the pipeline of 14 trying to implement those plans that now it's time to 15 look at some of the travel management and some of the 16 decisions made within the scope or framework of these 17 plans in order to validate that they are still in 18 existence or still appropriate today. 19 This is more important as we see these 20 increasing impacts, such as the Twentynine Palms 21 proposed expansion, proposed wilderness expansion, 22 proposed solar, wind, geothermal, transmission lines. 23 All of these are competing uses along with 24 recreational access or the public access to the public 25 lands. 243 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 While not -- I'm not going to say one use 2 is better than the other because they are all valid 3 uses. But it's going to entail a lot of planning and 4 consideration from a number of different aspects. 5 Some of these aspects, as more and more attention is 6 focused on the open areas themselves, I would hope we 7 would not lose sight of the fact that there is an 8 existing network of dispersed recreation routes out in 9 the desert that's just as important to public access 10 as the open areas are. Those are the ones that 11 provide access to bird viewing areas, bird hunting 12 areas, dear hunting areas, rockhounding. Those are 13 four-wheel drive touring opportunities. And these are 14 important aspects that the public is looking for 15 recreational opportunities. 16 And within that framework, it's also 17 important to note that the California Desert District 18 sits surrounded by some of the largest population 19 centers and the rapid growth centers in the nation 20 with the Clark County, San Bernardino, the L.A. basin 21 area. With this increase of population comes an 22 increase of people wanting to come out and view what 23 is in their backyard: The deserts, the mountains. 24 Within that framework it's going to be very important 25 that we have more accurate maps of routes to go, 244 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 showing people where they can go, what they can see. 2 Some of the wonders -- a little bit more explanation 3 about the wonders such as the Pinnacles and the other 4 areas out there. Point people to where you want them 5 to go. People are there. They are coming. They are 6 going to want to get out. 7 I hope that this next go-around of planning 8 is that the cumulative effects of all of the 9 discussions or proposals on the table are looked at. 10 And the one thing that has always been left at the 11 bottom being public access for the public, that that 12 is given up and looked at as a highly important 13 criteria in these decisions. 14 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Thank you. 15 Mr. Waldheim, do you have further? 16 MR. WALDHEIM: Yes, I would like the 17 Council to join myself and the Friends of Jawbone in 18 thanking Hector Villalobos and his entire staff for 19 getting our 5 and our 50 opened up in the Rands, a 20 six-year project since it was close to getting it 21 open. Now, these days BLM doesn't open these things. 22 But we got 15 miles back and thank you, Steve, for 23 November 1 being the due date. I don't know if you 24 got the picture in the newspaper. Did you get that 25 picture? So he is in the paper, and it was a 245 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 fantastic event. So I want to thank you very much for 2 doing that. 3 (Applause from the audience.) 4 I already thanked the Barstow office for El 5 Mirage opening, so I don't have to go over that again, 6 but that was a milestone. It was a 20-year project. 7 I made the motion up as a commissioner to put a 8 million dollars in. Mike Ahrens, the one who dared me 9 to do it, and I did it, he wrote the grant. He said 10 not a fat chance you are ever going to get that back. 11 What we didn't plan on was two million dollars where 12 Mike Pool, the director of state office, he was 13 gracious enough to find the other million dollars. 14 Otherwise, we wouldn't be saying hallelujah, we 15 finally got it. So it's a fun thing. The Friends of 16 El Mirage are running the visitors store and book 17 store. So two milestones were done in the last two 18 weeks, so we are really proud of that. 19 The last thing: I would strongly urge you 20 to come up with some kind of a resolution from your 21 board. You have had Brad from the supervisors from 22 San Bernardino County. He is taking the lead in 23 trying to save public access to the recreational areas 24 for all folks and businesses in the San Bernardino 25 County Association -- what do they call it? -- the 246 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 movie association. Anyway, they do a lot of movies in 2 that area. It would be devastating to our economy if 3 we were to lose that. 4 So I think it would be cool if you as 5 Council members joined Brad and the rest of us 6 multiple users in saying, yes, we agree, you need to 7 expand. One of the reasons they did 420,000 acres 8 instead of 185,000 acres is so they can study the rest 9 of the story. And we worked very hard with 10 Partnership for Johnson Valley, with the military. I 11 personally have been at their base with the generals 12 and making the Power Point with Wayne Nosala. So we 13 have done our pushing. Brad now, thank God, he is 14 stepped in with Gerry Hillier working very hard. So 15 please before you leave, come up with some resolution 16 so we can move forward saving Johnson Valley. 17 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Mr. Dunlop, do you have 18 anything? Last card here. 19 MR. DUNLOP: Chris Dunlop, California 20 Motorcycle Safety Program. 21 I saw you got all your requirements for 22 ATVs for certain age children having to have a safety 23 course or anything else. Has that been expanded on 24 for possible dirt bikes or any other sort of program 25 as a blanket requirement for all ATV users or all dirt 247 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 bike users? 2 MR. WALDHEIM: I can answer that. It's 3 a state law that was passed when we were on the 4 commission. We got the ATV program going through. It 5 doesn't apply to older people. 16 years and under, 6 U.S. kids have to have a training, including the 7 parents, to be able to drive a four-wheel drive. The 8 motorcycles, it doesn't cover it. But we are 9 encouraging all the young kids to take the course even 10 though you are on a motorcycle to do it. That's state 11 law. The OHV division is the one that handles that 12 from the Parks and Recreation Division. They are the 13 ones that work on that, not the BLM. That's a state 14 issue. 15 MR. DUNLOP: Oh, state issue. Oh, never 16 mind, wrong people. 17 CHAIRMAN MABEN: That concludes the 18 public comment. That takes us down to wrap-up and 19 summary. Next location. There was a request for the 20 Barstow office. Is that the consensus of the 21 committee? 22 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: I want to see the 23 Hammers. 24 CHAIRMAN MABEN: I don't see anybody 25 jumping up and down and saying no, so our next meeting 248 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 will be at Barstow. And any wrap-up comments from 2 anybody? 3 MR. RAZO: Shall we check on dates, 4 potentials? Usually we meet late February or early 5 March, we try. 6 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Perfect. 7 MEMBER ACUNA: March. 8 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: February. 9 MEMBER SHUMWAY: Late February. 10 MR. RAZO: March 20, 21. 11 CHAIRMAN MABEN: March 20 and 21? That 12 works for me. Anybody have any objections with those 13 two dates? Last chance. 14 MEMBER RUDNICK: I will let you know. 15 MR. RAZO: We are going to go for March 16 20, 21 in Barstow. Agenda topics, things you want to 17 cover? 18 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Want a military 19 representative. And I would like to tour the Hammers. 20 CHAIRMAN MABEN: I think obviously 21 Johnson Valley is the hot topic. 22 MR. RAZO: Johnson valley. The Hammers. 23 MR. WALDHEIM: Daphne Green. Steve's 24 got her down. 25 MR. RAZO: Rock climbing demo. We can 249 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 all work together on that. Certainly. Do we still 2 have somebody here from Barstow? 3 MR. WALDHEIM: No, they all left. Mike 4 Ahrens wants to jump in. 5 MR. RAZO: We need to tell them somebody 6 is coming. 7 MEMBER HOLIDAY: You know, we had our 8 issue of public comment during the time. And I think 9 there is some validity to allowing questions during 10 the presentation. Possibly we could set up some kind 11 of a light system or something to cut down -- keep the 12 time frame to a manageable level and not letting them 13 go on and on, but still allow people to make comment. 14 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: There is a 15 difference between asking a question and grabbing the 16 bully pulpit. And I would suggest maybe an effort 17 made to restrict questions to questions. But 18 allowable to put the context to the question. 19 MEMBER HOLIDAY: Yeah, I think there is 20 some validity to the idea of asking questions. 21 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Maybe to put it in 22 questions rather than commentary. 23 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Can we have 24 questions at certain periods, like questions after the 25 field managers give their reports, like three 250 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 different times for the public to ask their questions 2 so it's a little bit more structured, I guess is what 3 I am looking for. 4 CHAIRMAN MABEN: I think what we need to 5 do is take a look to see what's going to work. Today 6 was the first experiment with the Waldheim method, and 7 obviously it takes a long time. So we need to try to 8 get down to a better time. All of this came out of 9 our last meeting in Riverside. We made an effort 10 today. 11 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: I'm new, but just 12 to be clear, I've been testifying for ten years. And 13 even before Congress you usually have max, ten 14 minutes. Most of the time on the State hearings you 15 only get three to five. And in the city councils and 16 county councils, the most time is two to three 17 minutes. I think for the question part -- I know this 18 is not those things -- but the question part maybe we 19 could -- they have a timer or bell. And then maybe 20 after the whole thing, the commentary, whether the 21 presenters are still here or not, could be allowed 22 after the whole meeting is over. But I think you need 23 to keep it tighter. That's my suggestion. That's 24 all. 25 MEMBER CHARLTON: I have been to a lot 251 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 of these, and you get two problems. One is being able 2 to ask all the questions; the second is throwing the 3 timing so far off that people who come here to hear 4 something at a certain time miss it. And the changes 5 that were made today was to try to get back on 6 schedule. And every meeting is different. Some of 7 them end early; some of them drag on longer than 8 possible. And it's hard to finetune these things. 9 Every meeting is different. 10 MEMBER BANIS: Will it be the time for 11 elections of new officers at that next meeting since 12 the chairman and potentially the vice chairman may not 13 be back with us? And may I suggest that that might be 14 a more appropriate time to bring up the discussion 15 since it is the next chairman that will be enforcing 16 this rule. And he will want to do something probably 17 that's comfortable for him -- or her. 18 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Any other wrap-ups? 19 MEMBER CHARLTON: I had one little 20 comment that I wanted to make. 21 I have spent most of my adult life writing 22 environmental documents. And some of the newer 23 documents are so vague that the old documents are 24 better. I hear lots of complaints about the Desert 25 Tortoise Recovery Plan, as an example. 252 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 And then second is, I spent four years 2 working on the EIS for Fort Irwin expansion and as a 3 contractor. And just thought I would bring it up. 4 There was absolutely no communication between the poor 5 contractor writing the document and the military about 6 what they really wanted. The very important part of 7 these military training operations is the length and 8 the width of the valleys they are in. We wrote a 9 document before I came, and the military took a look 10 and said that's not where we want to expand. It was a 11 quarter of a million dollar document that we ended up 12 having to completely rewrite. 13 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: The military is the 14 lead agency, so they are going to be dealing directly 15 with that contractor. That's my understanding; 16 correct, Steve? 17 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: I don't know how 18 their communications are going with their contractor. 19 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: But it's their 20 contractor, not ours? 21 DIRECTOR BORCHARD: Yes, the Marines 22 have contracted for the services of preparing the 23 environmental analysis. 24 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: We would hope they 25 would be communicating with their own contractor. 253 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MEMBER CHARLTON: Yeah. No, I just 2 wanted people to know that it could be a serious 3 problem. Everybody is assuming that it's not 4 happening. 5 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Maybe that's a question 6 we need to ask at the next meeting. Are you talking 7 to your contractor? 8 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Of course, that 9 would be insulting. 10 CHAIRMAN MABEN: Anything else? 11 MEMBER BANIS: I would like to thank the 12 two Steves for a marked improvement of the 13 notification of the meetings, the agenda items, 14 planning documents. I know about six months to a year 15 ago you took a lot of comments from folks that things 16 weren't timely. Terrific improvement I felt, much 17 more on the ball this time for this meeting. Thank 18 you both. 19 (Applause from the audience.) 20 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: Being new, I have a 21 procedural question with regard to Mr. Waldheim's 22 request. Does the chair or someone decide to act on 23 that or push it to another agenda? I'm just curious. 24 CHAIRMAN MABEN: You are bringing it up 25 for discussion. What do you want to discuss? 254 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MEMBER ACUNA: I think at the next 2 meeting we have a greater opportunity to proceed with 3 real issues. We are going to get a good feel for 4 things and I think we will be better able to address 5 that comment that Ed Waldheim -- a statement from us 6 would be appropriate at that time. 7 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: Personally, I want 8 to say yes. But I also am going to do my damnedest to 9 get to the December 5th presentation because I feel 10 like we need to give the Marines their due. And right 11 now I'm not doubting anybody's veracity, but at the 12 same time I would like to weigh what was said here and 13 what they are presenting and then make a decision. 14 So I have a two-pronged question. If you 15 vote it for now, I would have to say I withhold or 16 abstain. 17 CHAIRMAN MABEN: I think Tom had a good 18 suggestion. That's going to be the meat of the next 19 meeting and might be a better decision after hearing 20 that. 21 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: If we have an 22 opportunity before the next meeting -- 23 CHAIRMAN MABEN: There is no rush to 24 judgment. Most of us will be off the DAC before that 25 decision will be made. 255 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 MEMBER GROSSGLASS: Normally when the 2 public makes a suggestion like that, we don't have to 3 do anything. If one of us on the DAC decides to do 4 it, we can make a motion to that effect. Just for 5 future reference, I want him to know that procedure 6 also. 7 MEMBER FITZPATRICK: Thank you. 8 CHAIR MABEN: Well, with that, I think 9 we are adjourned, folks. 10 (The proceedings concluded at 3:57 p.m.) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 256 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC. 1 R E P O R T E R ' S C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 4 I, JUDITH W. GILLESPIE, a Certified Shorthand 5 Reporter, CSR No. 3710, for the State of California, 6 do hereby certify that the foregoing pages comprise a 7 full, true and correct transcription of the 8 proceedings had and the testimony taken at the hearing 9 in the hereinbefore-entitled matter of Saturday, 10 November 15, 2008. 11 Dated this 4th day of December, 2008, at 12 Riverside, California. 13 14 15 16 17 18 _________________________________________ JUDITH W. GILLESPIE, CSR, RPR (CSR #3710) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 257 GILLESPIE REPORTING & DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT, INC.