NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION + + + + + CONSUMER ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING + + + + + THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 20, 2003 + + + + + The meeting convened at 9:00 a.m. in Room TW-C305 of the Federal Communications Commission, 445 12th Street, S.W., Washington, D.C., SHIRLEY L. ROOKER, Chair, presiding. CAC MEMBERS PRESENT: SHIRLEY L. ROOKER, Chair THOMAS ALLIBONE MATTHEW D. BENNETT DEBRA BERLYN DAVID BRUGGER DIANE BURSTEIN ANNETTE CLECKNER JIM CONRAN CINDY COX MICHAEL F. DelCASINO MIKE DUKE LARRY GOLDBERG JOSEPH GORDON SUSAN GRANT DAVID HOROWITZ CHERYL JOHNSON BRENDA KELLY-FREY KAREN KIRSCH NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 2 CAC MEMBERS PRESENT (Continued): JEFFREY KRAMER REBECCA LADEW RONALD MALLARD SUSAN PALMER-MAZRUI DAVID POEHLMAN MARK PRANGER JOY M. RAGSDALE EUGENE SEAGRIFF DONALD SNOOP BYRON ST. CLAIR CLAUDE STOUT RICHARD T. ELLIS ANDREA WILLIAMS DIXIE ZIEGLER (present telephonically) ALSO PRESENT: JONATHAN S. ADELSTEIN, Commissioner, FCC PATTY BANNIER, Hamilton Relay Services CLAY BOWEN, Virginia Relay AMY BROWN, Legal Adviser PAM GREGORY, Chief, Disability Rights Office, Consumer Information Bureau CHRISTOPHER LIBERTELLI Senior Legal Adviser, FCC KRIS MONTEITH, Associate Bureau Chief for Intergovernmental Affairs, Consumer and Governmental Affairs Bureau, FCC K. DANE SNOWDEN, Chief, Consumer and Governmental Affairs Bureau, FCC PAM STEWART, Maryland Relay KAREN PELTZ-STRAUSS, Powrie V. Doctor Chair for Deaf Studies, Gallaudet University THOMAS WYATT, Deputy Bureau Chief, Consumer and Governmental Affairs Bureau, FCC NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 3 I-N-D-E-X AGENDA ITEM PAGE Welcome and Call to Order 4 Shirley L. Rooker, Chair, Consumer Advisory Committee (CAC) Meeting Logistics 6 Scott Marshall, CAC Designated Federal Officer, Consumer & Governmental Affairs Bureau (CGB) The Life of a Complaint 15 Thomas Wyatt, Deputy Bureau Chief, Consumer & Governmental Affairs Bureau (CGB) Presentation: Voluntary Consumer Information 52 Code Andrea Williams, Assistant General Counsel, Cellular Telecommunications and Internet Association Introduction of the Chairman and Commissioners 82 K. Dane Snowden, Chief, CGB Update on the Consumer & Governmental Affairs 83 Bureau K. Dane Snowden, Chief, CGB Working Group Recommendations and Progress 105 Reports TRS Working Group 105 Brenda Kelly-Frey, Chair Broadband Working Group 136 Larry Goldberg, Chair Consumer Complaints, Outreach, Education 148 and Participation Working Group Joy Ragsdale, Chair Ancillary Services Working Group 163 Eugene Seagriff, Chair Comments from the Public; Wrap-Up; Future 177 Meetings NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 4 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S1 (9:01 a.m.)2 WELCOME AND CALL TO ORDER3 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: If we could join4 around the table? We have a very packed day, as5 usual. I would also like to express some thanks to6 people. The National Association of Broadcasters we7 would like to thank for lunch and breakfast. 8 Breakfast is certainly good. So if lunch is equal to9 that, we're in good shape here.10 Also I would like to thank Betty Thompson11 and the other FCC staffers who made this meeting12 possible. Of course, that would not happen at all13 without Scott Marshall, bless his heart. I know he14 just gets so mad at me every time I say that. 15 Nevertheless, it's true because he does all the work. 16 He really does. Amy Brown is also doing a great17 thing. Thanks from us for keeping us legal, making18 sure we're not doing something that's wrong.19 In addition to that, Verizon and MCI have20 very generously donated teleconferencing services for21 the working groups. We would like to thank them. We22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 5 appreciate that very much because you really have made1 the facilitating of the working groups so much easier2 for us.3 We have a new representative, some changes4 in our membership from the National Urban League,5 Michele Moore, but, unfortunately, Michelle could not6 be with us today. Joining us instead is her7 alternate, Lisa Malone. Lisa, where are you? Is she8 here yet? Well, we hope she is going to be. I think9 she is going to be joining us a little later. And10 Stephen Gregory is no longer a member of the11 committee.12 I also would like to say that it has been13 very gratifying to see the work that has been going on14 in the working groups. You were called to the working15 groups for a reason, obviously, because you have been16 doing a lot of work. There has been a lot of17 activity, a lot of discussion, teleconferencing,18 e-mails, and then recommendations that have come out19 of it that will be presented today.20 There are a few of you who have not joined21 a working group. I strongly encourage you to do so22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 6 because without your participation in a working group,1 you really are missing out on a lot of what is going2 on in the committee. Let Scott know so that you can3 be plugged in to the meetings that take place and so4 that you will be getting all of the information in the5 e-mails. Your participation is so important. I just6 can't stress that enough.7 Now I am going to turn this over to Scott,8 who has some information that you need t pay careful9 attention to because it has to do with a drill that is10 going on here today.11 MR. MARSHALL: Thank you, Shirley.12 MEETING LOGISTICS13 MR. MARSHALL: Good morning, everybody,14 and welcome. Several quick announcements. As you15 know from our agenda, we will be breaking out into the16 working group sessions at the end of this hour.17 We do have cart services and sign language18 interpreters for all of those breakout sessions. By19 the way, to the working group chairs, we can provide20 you with an uncorrected transcript of your21 discussions. However, we have assisted listening22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 7 devices only here in the commission meeting room,1 where the TRS group will be meeting, and in one other2 working group room. It's an interference issue. And3 that's due to the proximity of the rooms here today4 that we are using. We can only run two assisted5 listening device systems at one time.6 So it would be very helpful to us if you7 could identify yourself to us at this point if you8 plan to attend the broadband working group, the9 consumer complaints and outreach working group, or the10 ancillary services working group and if you need an11 assisted listening device. If you could raise your12 hand and let us know what group so that we can set up13 that equipment between now and 10:00 o'clock? 14 Anybody? Shirley?15 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: We have Joe, Rebecca.16 Who else?17 MR. MARSHALL: Keep in mind that if you're18 going to be in the TRS group, you are not going to19 have a problem. It's going to be right here. And we20 are equipped in this room.21 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I've got you and Joe.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 8 MEMBER GORDON: I think I would go to the1 consumer complaint meeting if you can have assisted in2 that.3 MR. MARSHALL: Okay.4 MEMBER GORDON: The word "complaint" is5 what I am doing now.6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Which group?7 MEMBER GORDON: Consumer complaint.8 MR. MARSHALL: Fine.9 MEMBER GORDON: Is that okay, Scott?10 MR. MARSHALL: Fine.11 MEMBER GORDON: Thank you.12 MR. MARSHALL: And, Rebecca, you are going13 to stay here or you are going someplace?14 MS. LADEW (via interpreter): I will be15 here.16 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. That solves17 that problem.18 MR. MARSHALL: I hope you got that19 information. It's the Consumer and outreach group20 that needs the portable assisted listening device21 equipment.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 9 Everyone has been very conscious of1 security after 9/11. That's certainly true here at2 this agency. This morning there will be a3 shelter-in-place drill taking place during our4 meeting.5 The shelter-in-place procedures are6 designed to protect you, our guests, and our staff in7 the unlikely event of a chemical or biological threat.8 Basically, the building shuts down and people are9 directed to designated shelter areas throughout the10 building.11 This morning, though, in order not to12 interrupt this meeting, what we would like you to do,13 we plan to adjourn the first session, Thomas Wyatt, at14 about 9:45. We would like you to then quickly, as15 quickly as possible, move to the breakout rooms. We16 will have staff available to show you the way. 17 They're just across the hall, actually, and down the18 corridor. Of course, if you're in the TRS group, you19 stay right here. There are also signs on the rooms as20 well.21 We would like you to get in those rooms as22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 10 quickly as possible and stay there for the duration of1 the drill. The drill will occur at about 10:05. And2 you'll hear a couple of announcements over our public3 address system.4 Please do not be alarmed by this. It's5 only a drill. Go about your business in the usual6 way. Keep working in your working groups. And there7 should be no problem.8 Then we would like to see you back here at9 noon in the commission meeting room for lunch and our10 luncheon presentation with Andrea Williams from CTIA. 11 Does anybody have any questions about the12 shelter-in-place drill? Somebody said "Scott." 13 David, go ahead.14 MEMBER POEHLMAN: I just want to know the15 break, then, is it 9:45?16 MR. MARSHALL: We will be adjourning at17 9:45 to go to the breakout sessions, correct.18 MEMBER POEHLMAN: At least one of us will19 need to jump outside for a few minutes. And I didn't20 know if that would interfere with the drill thing or21 not.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 11 MR. MARSHALL: I would like you to go if1 you at all possibly could go directly to your room2 because the corridors are going to be very mobbed3 during this drill process, we believe, because people4 can't use the elevators and it's going to be a5 challenge.6 MEMBER BERLYN: Scott, it's Debbie Berlyn.7 MR. MARSHALL: Hi, Debbie.8 MEMBER BERLYN: Hi. Question. I don't9 know if this is the appropriate time, but if you10 belong to two groups --11 MR. MARSHALL: You would have to make a12 hard choice, Debbie.13 MEMBER BERLYN: Is there any way that you14 can? Is there a point at which we can go from one15 group to the other during that period of time?16 MR. MARSHALL: You certainly could after17 the half-hour drill time if you wanted to float18 between two groups. That's certainly your option. We19 would like you to stay in one spot during the20 shelter-in-place drill.21 MEMBER BERLYN: Okay.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 12 MR. MARSHALL: Anything else?1 (No response.)2 MR. MARSHALL: And, of course, restrooms3 are right out this door to my right and down the hall4 to the left. They haven't moved since last time, I'm5 happy to say. I guess that's it. Back to you,6 Shirley. Thanks.7 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Brenda, did you have8 a comment?9 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: This is Brenda10 Kelly-Frey.11 MR. MARSHALL: Hi, Brenda.12 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: Hi, Scott. Just13 wondering, since the TRS working group has also been14 asked to consider homeland security as part of our15 job, would it be possible for someone from the working16 group to kind of observe what's going on with the17 sheltering in place so that we can possibly include18 some of the things that we have learned from the19 sheltering in place here at the FCC in our suggestions20 to the homeland security for disabled individuals?21 MR. MARSHALL: I guess I'm not clear about22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 13 your question, Brenda. We do have procedures in place1 for our employees and guests with disabilities if this2 were an actual emergency. We have special procedures3 today because of this meeting going on in terms of4 what we're doing in order not to disrupt the meeting.5 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: I'm just wondering. 6 I think it would be very beneficial to see to maybe7 meet with the people who do this, who have done this8 drill, to just kind of find out what accommodations9 were made or will be necessary for us to include in10 our homeland security recommendations in the future.11 MR. MARSHALL: Sure. I think we can work12 that out.13 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: Okay.14 MR. MARSHALL: Yes. After the fact, I15 think we can work that out without a problem.16 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: Okay. Great. Thanks.17 MR. MARSHALL: Just remind me. Okay?18 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: Thanks.19 MR. MARSHALL: All right. Anything else?20 (No response.)21 MR. MARSHALL: All right. Really back to22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 14 you this time, Shirley.1 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: All right. Another2 reminder. We are being televised. So behave3 yourselves. Also I would like to ask you to please4 sign in the registration sheet -- I believe it's out5 in the hallway -- so that we have a record of your6 being here.7 With that, it gives me great pleasure to8 introduce our first speaker because I think that we9 have been asked that he come and speak to us again. 10 So, Thomas, you must have done something right the11 first time.12 We're delighted to have Thomas Wyatt, who13 is the deputy bureau chief, who oversees the consumer14 complaint and inquiry process. He has graciously15 agreed to come back today, as requested by the16 consumer complaints working group, which is chaired by17 Joy Ragsdale.18 Thomas, welcome.19 (Applause.)20 MR. WYATT: Thank you, Shirley.21 THE LIFE OF A COMPLAINT22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 15 MR. WYATT: It's good to be here. Scott1 informed me that I have a little less time than I had2 planned for. So I intend to keep my remarks fairly3 brief. I'm sure Scott will see to that.4 Also I believe you should have a copy of5 my slide presentation in your packet. So that may6 help speed us along as well.7 I would like to talk about our consumer8 center operations and then more specifically about the9 informal complaint process. I believe some of you10 have indicated that you want to understand the process11 from beginning to end a little better. So I intend to12 focus on the consumer complaint process.13 My slides aren't up yet. There they are. 14 The second slide. Okay. Well, our consumer centers. 15 You have heard us say this before. Our consumer16 centers are typically the consumer's first point of17 contact with the FCC.18 They operate in two locations: here in19 D.C. and in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. They really20 operate virtually as one because they share schedules.21 They don't duplicate any work. Really, they do the22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 16 same functions in both centers. So there's really no1 duplication. It's virtually one center, but we refer2 to them as two.3 We have about 72 consumer advocacy and4 mediation specialists, or CAMS, as we call them, that5 handle the telephones, that handle the complaints, and6 respond to consumer inquiries.7 We also have a distribution center that8 supports the complaints process by sorting and9 scanning the incoming mail. That's a pretty major10 challenge given the amount of mail that we get from11 time to time.12 I want to talk a little about training as13 well. I believe that was a question someone had about14 training for the CAMS. Joe has probably had one of15 the toughest jobs at the commission in my assessment. 16 He's required to have a pretty broad knowledge of17 various commission rules and policies. As you might18 imagine, that's a pretty major undertaking, but we try19 to provide substantive training on a regular basis for20 the CAMS.21 For example, when the recent do not call22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 17 requirements came out, we had some pretty in-depth1 training for the CAMS on those requirements and how2 they needed to handle consumer inquiries and3 complaints.4 We are also doing it with what is local5 known affordability. So that is something we put a6 lot of emphasis on. When there is a major initiative7 by the commission, we try to make sure that the CAMS8 receive substantive training on those requirements.9 We also have a practice of sending out10 daily e-mails on hot topics and special items of11 interest. We also conduct in-depth monthly group12 training on current policy issues.13 Another thing we do is we put a lot of14 emphasis on team building. So we have team-building15 training as well to make sure that we're working as a16 group. It's very important. We have a lot of diverse17 issues to deal with. And we need to make sure that18 we're all working together so that we get it right.19 We also have research training for the20 camps periodically as well. It's important that they21 understand how to get at information that consumers22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 18 need. Again, with the volume of the work that comes1 out of the commission, it's important that they have2 the ability to track that information down and provide3 it to consumers.4 Finally, we put a lot of emphasis on5 customer service because consumers expect and demand6 excellent service. I don't need to tell you all that7 because you deal with consumers and you know that they8 expect and demand excellent service. That's pretty9 challenging sometimes because we will get calls and10 consumers will want something that we practically are11 not able to deliver, but we try to inform them of that12 in a very nice way. Sometimes that doesn't even help.13 So if we can go to the next slide, I14 wanted to talk about the consumer center workload. We15 divide the workload into two basic groups. Basically16 it's the real-time work. That's the phone call.17 When the phone rings, we have to answer18 it. And we try to answer it as quickly as possible. 19 I don't have any available stats today, but generally20 we answer the phone within 30 seconds in most cases. 21 I don't have the specific stats on that, but we do a22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 19 good job of answering the phone very quickly. On1 average, our CAMS take close to about 30,000 telephone2 calls a month. That's speaking directly to the3 consumer.4 The next category, follow-on work we call5 it, and that's the work that follows on after the6 real-time work is done. Usually after a phone call,7 there's some information that the consumer has8 requested or the consumer has filed a complaint. So9 that has to be processed into our system and has to be10 worked.11 Sometimes the CAMS will be required to12 gather information and send out information. So13 that's the work that falls on after the initial14 contact with the consumer.15 E-mail is a big part of that. We average16 about close to over 15,000 e-mail a month as well. 17 These are e-mail that the CAMS are required to respond18 to, usually within two days. Sometimes it takes a19 little longer depending on the complexity, but we try20 to respond to e-mail within two days of receipt.21 We also get quite a bit of paper through22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 20 the mail, paper complaints and inquiries. We receive1 probably close to 9,000 of those each month.2 So let's go to the next slide. I want to3 keep going here. I wanted to talk about the informal4 consumer complaints. I think I have sort of preached5 this over and over again, but we really put a lot of6 emphasis on this face.7 An informal complaint can be filed by any8 reasonable means. What I have listed here on this9 slide is the most used means: toll-free call, voice10 TTY. When someone calls in a complaint, that11 compliant is manually entered into our database by the12 CAMS while she is on the phone. Once that complaint13 is in the system, then it can be processed by the14 CAMS.15 E-mail is normally efficient because we16 can scan our menu into the database. Personal mail17 probably presents the biggest challenge because we18 have to scan that into our database. Our distribution19 center does that, but sometimes the mail is not in20 real good shape. So it requires some extra work to21 get it into the system, and the same thing with fax. 22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 21 Sometimes fax communications aren't real legible and1 we have to really work with those to get those in.2 The internet is probably the easiest3 method of getting a complaint to us from our4 perspective because we can get that complaint directly5 into our database from the internet. So it's really6 an efficient way of getting the complaint to us.7 The next slide I am going to go to is to8 talk about the informal complaint process. I have a9 flow chart here on these next two slides that10 describes the process.11 As I said earlier, any reasonable means to12 file a complaint, let's say if someone files one via13 the toll-free call, that complaint is processed and14 logged into our tracking system, the same with e-mail,15 personal mail, fax, and internet complaints.16 Once they're logged into the system, the17 CAMS then evaluate the content and jurisdiction we18 have over the subject matter of the complaint. If the19 content is not okay, then usually we try to obtain20 additional information from the consumer.21 If there's a jurisdiction problem, we22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 22 refer the consumer to another agency. It could be a1 state or federal agency. Sometimes we refer to the2 enforcement division for their expert review of it as3 well.4 Let's say that if the content and5 jurisdiction are okay, then, if you go to the next6 slide, the complaint is usually forwarded to the7 company or companies involved, usually within 20 days.8 Martha is in the audience. I am looking9 to her to confirm because I don't want to say10 something that's really off base, but I believe we do11 a pretty good job of getting complaints to the12 carriers now, maybe within 20 days, Martha. Once it's13 into our system, we can get it to the carrier within14 20 days. And we're trying to improve that even.15 We started a project a little over a year16 ago electronically serving complaints on some17 carriers; actually, some of the carrier18 representatives here.19 I believe the process is still working20 pretty well. We're always looking to refine it. And21 we hope to be able to refine it more very soon. But22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 23 that works very well because we can get it to the1 carrier sooner. They can address it sooner. And the2 consumer is happy sooner because the carriers do a3 real good job of making the consumer happy. So we4 really want to see that process up.5 Let's say we have the complaint. Whatever6 means it got to us, we process it into our system. We7 determined that it can be served. We served it. And8 we get a response.9 We reply to the response. Say the10 complaint is satisfied. Well, we typically close it11 because we don't do much more with the complaint,12 although it could be subject to further review by the13 Enforcement Bureau for some possible violation, but we14 basically close it out once we hear from the carrier15 and the consumer that it has been satisfied.16 If it is not satisfied -- and I really17 want to emphasize these points because I think there18 is some misunderstanding about our informal complaint19 process. It's really not designed to produce a20 decision on the merits. We really try to facilitate21 some of the resolution for the individual consumer.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 24 So if it's not satisfied, we may mediate1 on behalf of the consumer. That might be a phone call2 to Mike, for example, asking if they could take a3 second look at it because we think there may be a4 problem. Usually the companies are pretty good about5 doing that. So we really try to facilitate some6 resolution for the consumer.7 Sometimes we will even require that8 companies provide us additional information. So, for9 example, if someone gives us a response that says,10 "Well, we look at the complaint, and it's not valid,"11 we don't usually view that as a legitimate response." 12 We expect some explanation of the situation and how13 the company handled it. So we may go back and ask for14 more information if we get that kind of response from15 the company.16 We also advise the complainant of options17 because, again, we don't issue decisions on the18 merits. If a consumer expects us to issue a written19 decision that says, "Based on these facts, there was20 or was not a violation of this particular rule or21 order of the commission, they're not going to get that22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 25 via the informal complaint process." But we'll1 explain to them what their options are.2 Under the commission's regulatory scheme3 for common carriers, that option is to file a formal4 complaint. So we provide detailed information about5 how to pursue a formal complaint.6 If I can sort of go to the last slide, I7 guess, we want to talk a little bit about the8 difference between inquiry and the complaint because9 I get that question a lot.10 As you can see from the slide, inquiry is11 basically a communication to one of our consumer12 centers seeking information about an issue or problem.13 If the consumer doesn't name a company and14 ask for relief from that company, we generally don't15 view that as a complaint. Complaints are any16 correspondence, communication to the consumer centers17 by or on behalf of a consumer which alleges a18 violation and seeks relief.19 So if a consumer calls, writes, or20 e-mails, whatever, and says, "In my dealings with X21 company, I experienced this problem. And I think it22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 26 was wrong, and this is the relief I want," then that1 is definitely a consumer complaint. We forward that2 to the company, which has the 30 days to respond.3 I would point out that -- I alluded to4 this earlier -- the companies that we serve complaints5 on generally do a good job of addressing those6 complaints. We did an informal study a little while7 ago that showed about 80 percent of the complaints8 that we serve are resolved to the satisfaction of the9 consumer. I think that's a pretty good ratio.10 We recognize there are at least 20 percent11 of consumers who may not be satisfied, but, again, the12 process is designed to facilitate informal resolution13 on behalf of the consumer. I think it does a pretty14 good job of accomplishing that.15 So we are very pleased and proud of the16 process. We are looking to refine it all the time. 17 We are always looking for suggestions on how to make18 it better. We have regular discussions with the19 companies that we serve complaints on to make sure20 that we're not burning their systems and that we're21 working together to really make it a full and22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 27 effective process.1 So that essentially describes the2 complaint process. And I guess I will open it up to3 questions if you have any. Yes?4 MEMBER HOROWITZ: Tom?5 MR. WYATT: Yes?6 MEMBER HOROWITZ: I'm just wondering. Do7 you log these complaints as to the subject matter?8 MR. WYATT: Yes, we do.9 MEMBER HOROWITZ: Are those put on the Web10 site?11 MR. WYATT: Well, we issue what we call a12 quarterly statistical report on top consumer13 complaints and inquiries. That report only lists the14 top consumer complaints received for the previous15 quarter.16 We don't routinely put all of the17 complaint categories on the internet, but that18 quarterly report is available on the internet. As a19 matter of fact, I am hoping that we will have one20 coming out today.21 MEMBER HOROWITZ: This is just my feeling.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 28 I feel that is really a good guide for people who are1 looking at the Web site to know percentages of2 complaints that come about certain issues -- it could3 be from home phones to cell phones to whatever -- and4 break those out. And it would also be something that5 would really be interesting to the media because the6 media is always looking for the top ten this and the7 top ten that, but just to get an idea of what people8 are really complaining about.9 MR. WYATT: That is something we are10 considering. As I said earlier, right now we are11 focusing on the top categories. We are looking at12 possibly broadening the scope of the report to include13 some additional categories, but that is something that14 we would appreciate some more comments on. It's15 something maybe we will be able to do in the future.16 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. We have a lot17 of questions. I saw Joe Gordon's hand first. Let me18 just remind us, say who you are. But before you start19 talking, hold your hand up so the people in the booth20 can find you.21 MEMBER GORDON: All right. I'm Joe Gordon22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 29 from the League for Hard of Hearing. We represent a1 large population of consumers that use telephone2 really and watch closed captioning. I have a question3 or I need some advice.4 Many times consumers would like to write5 a letter to the cable company, the TV company,6 telephone company, and not write a letter complaining7 to the FCC. They don't get a response. When they8 write a letter to the FCC, they do get a response. 9 How can we solve that problem that we get an answer10 from the company? Should we write to the company and11 copy the FCC?12 The big thing is specifically with, say,13 closed captioning and television. If a consumer14 writes to the cable company saying, "Why was there no15 captioning?" they are not going to reply. If they16 write a letter to the FCC saying, "There was no17 captioning," they will get some acknowledgement. How18 can we solve that problem?19 MR. WYATT: And that's been a longstanding20 problem. I think I alluded to this earlier. Most21 companies are usually good about getting back to22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 30 consumers.1 We recognize that consumers don't always2 get the response they want or expect. And we need to3 encourage consumers to copy the company when they send4 a letter to us because I think that does get their5 attention. They're maybe more likely to respond6 directly to the consumer. So the consumer has7 indicated their intent that they have sent this to the8 FCC.9 Our goal is to make sure that the10 consumers do get that response, which is why the11 informal complaint process is so important because if12 the consumer wants a response from the company and13 they send us a complaint, we will facilitate that14 process and make sure there is a response.15 Oftentimes the company is in a much better16 position to resolve something than we are. Just17 facilitating that dialogue really speeds the process18 up.19 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. I'm going to20 try to get you in the order that I saw your hands. 21 David, I think you're next. I see you, David. Okay.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 31 MEMBER POEHLMAN: This is David Poehlman1 with the American Council of the Blind. Hello,2 everyone.3 Thomas, thank you very much for presenting4 this very clear road map and a very clear distinction5 between an inquiry and an informal complaint. This is6 something that a lot of people get confused about, as7 you said.8 I have a couple of real kind of logistical9 kinds of questions. You say that e-mail can be10 scanned in. Does that mean it's printed and then11 scanned or does that mean that there is some other12 process that you're referring to as scanning?13 MR. WYATT: I believe that we print it and14 then scan it. Usually the copies are very legible. 15 They're much easier to scan in. I believe that's the16 process.17 We're looking at ways now to actually not18 have to scan it in but actually be able to input it19 into our system without that process, but that's20 something that we have in the works and hope to have21 it available in the not-too-distant future.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 32 MEMBER POEHLMAN: That's going to actually1 be part of my follow-up, and that is it's kind of2 hard, I guess, sometimes to verify the authenticity or3 genuinity of an e-mail. So I imagine you get a lot of4 throw-aways. I'm sure you have something in place5 that kind of helps screen that, but I'm sure it makes6 your job really tough.7 You alluded to the possibility of having8 a way to encode the e-mail directly. Would one9 possible solution be to send an e-mail form back to10 the originator and have them like fill it in in an11 e-mail and return it? Anyway, that's just an off12 side.13 I also was interested in the statistics of14 the types of the media of the communications with the15 FCC. I noticed that e-mail is -- what is it? --16 practically double what paper is. I find that very17 interesting.18 MR. WYATT: Yes. E-mail has become very19 prevalent. I mean, we're getting a lot of e-mail. 20 And the number is always going up. E-mail is also a21 way for a lot of people to really get a point across22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 33 to the commission.1 I'll give you an example. We have been2 receiving a lot of e-mail recently about the Golden3 Globe award program. During that program, -- you all4 might be familiar with it -- someone used the "f" word5 in describing his experience at the Golden Globe6 awards.7 A lot of people were really outraged that8 that was broadcast. So we've gotten a lot of comments9 and complaints from consumers about the use of the "f"10 word on the broadcast.11 Most of them have come in via e-mail. We12 get a lot of phone calls, but a lot of them have come13 in via e-mail. It was thousands and thousands of them14 in a very short period of time. So e-mail is a very15 prevalent tool that consumers have at their disposal.16 We recognize that. Our job is to be17 poised and prepared to take that e-mail and work with18 it effectively.19 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you, Thomas.20 MEMBER POEHLMAN: Thank you.21 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: This side over here22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 34 seems to have a lot of questions. I saw your hand1 first. Go right ahead. Start at the end and work2 your way up. Tell us your name. Okay.3 MEMBER ALLIBONE: I'm Tom Allibone. I've4 got a question for you. In my real life, I am5 actually a consultant representing consumers. I have6 filed on behalf of a number of consumers complaints7 with the FCC over the past years.8 It seems that the treatment or the process9 -- okay? You did a very high level of review today of10 the process and without a lot of details. I can tell11 you that as a consultant, for example, something is12 falling through the cracks in the informal complaint13 process.14 Definitely there is not a feedback loop. 15 And, in fact, even the consumers I represented also16 did not get adequate feedback. So I want to bring17 that to your attention, at least, if it has not been18 brought up before in the past.19 The second thing is more of a comment. 20 Okay? I have utilized your CAMS on a number of21 different occasions to inquire. Quite frankly, part22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 35 of what I do in my investigations, I am kind of1 testing the waters all the time to see exactly what2 you know and what you don't know.3 I have to tell you that it's been kind of4 hit and miss. I understand it's a tall task, you5 know, in this new world order to be kind of an expert6 in many, many areas, but what concerns me is that in7 this new world of deregulation, of long distance and8 local all coming back together again, phone bills are9 more complex and confusing than ever, when consumers10 bring complaints to you -- and I'll give you just a11 real simple example.12 A complaint comes forward where I'm being13 billed, I discover, for a dial tone line that I14 haven't had for 20 years. On the surface, it would15 appear that that complaint may be better served going16 back to the local/state public utility commission. 17 But, in fact, the way that the phone lines are18 structured these days, there are multiple charges19 associated with that dial tone line, as you know. And20 many of those charges are regulated by the Federal21 Communications Commission.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 36 I am just curious. Out of the statistics1 that you gather and you capture, when you are making2 a determination of what goes back to the state and3 where you have jurisdiction there are these gray4 areas. There are very important gray areas.5 I asked a question of one of your folks6 several months ago. I said, "Does anybody in the FCC7 actually track the number of FCC subscriber line8 charges that are being billed to nonexistent lines?" 9 It's kind of a squirrely question to ask.10 The reason I was asking that question is11 because that same complaint goes back to the state12 public utilities. You find out that a consumer has13 been paying for a nonexistent line for 20 years and14 this money has been collected. Okay? I am just15 curious, things like that.16 It's just one example. How are you making17 the tough call on some of these cases that could have18 state implications and FCC implications? And how are19 you really sharing that data?20 MR. WYATT: You pointed up a challenge21 that we have. I mean, these are the tough issues. 22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 37 Some of the things you pointed out are issues that1 most attorneys here wouldn't be able to answer in2 response to the initial phone call. They require some3 amount of analysis.4 I think our process is not structured5 towards having expertise on the phone. We have people6 that are knowledgeable about tracking down information7 to give the information back to the consumers, but we8 don't have so-called experts on the phone who are able9 to answer really tough questions sometimes.10 A lot of them are really tough. Frankly,11 we sometimes get the jurisdictional calls wrong. But12 we work with our state counterparts to try to make13 sure that we get it right. We're always looking to14 improve that process. And that's why comments like15 yours are always appreciated, because it tells us that16 we need to work harder and figure out how to do things17 better.18 So I welcome those comments. I know I am19 not really answering your question, but it's a tough20 question. I don't have a ready answer for it. We21 will look at the process, the types of complaints that22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 38 you describe. We do get them, and we try to make sure1 that we have jurisdiction before we put any obligation2 on the companies to respond to us.3 I mean, it's not our role to require the4 companies to respond to matters that are more properly5 within the jurisdictions of the states. So we try to6 do a good job of getting things to the state. 7 Sometimes they'll send them back. And then the8 consumer may be left in the lurch a little bit.9 We try to figure out an answer eventually10 and get it back to the consumer. It's not a perfect11 process but one that I think if we keep working to12 make it better and keep our focus on serving the13 consumer, we will get it right.14 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Let's work our15 way up the table. I think there were some hands. Who16 was the next person? Susan?17 MEMBER GRANT: Good morning. Susan Grant18 from the National Consumers League.19 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Put your hand up,20 Susan, so she can see you.21 MEMBER GRANT: I have a two-part question22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 39 about inquiries. If a consumer contacts the FCC about1 an industry-wide problem or perceived gap in the FCC2 rules and doesn't name a specific company, is that3 considered an inquiry, rather than a complaint?4 Secondly, do you track inquiries to see5 what people are asking about, which might be useful in6 terms of developing consumer education programs as7 well as looking at whether or not, in fact, there are8 systemic problems in telecommunications that might9 need to be addressed in a policy way.10 MR. WYATT: In response to your last11 question, absolutely. We track inquiries very12 closely. It's something that we put a lot of emphasis13 on because the other bureaus rely on us to provide14 them that information about what consumers are15 inquiring about because the inquiries often point up16 a problem or an issue that needs to be addressed in17 some regulatory fashion or in some other fashion.18 So it also points up the need for us to do19 more outreach because if consumers are calling us with20 a lot of questions about a matter, it tells us that21 we're not getting good information out. So we use22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 40 that information to develop outreach materials and to1 improve our fact sheets so that we can better educate2 consumers.3 Regarding your first question, generally4 no. We don't generally treat that as a complaint. If5 they're pointed up in industry-wide, what they view as6 an industry-wide problem, we don't generally track7 that as a complaint.8 We track that as an inquiry, although if9 we get enough of those, those are given a lot of10 attention as well because we have enough of those. It11 tells us that there is something that we may need to12 address.13 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Thank you. 14 Claude, I think you were next. No? Okay. Is there15 any other one? All right. Joe, you have had one16 question already. I've got to give Larry and then Joy17 a chance. Sorry about that. He's pouting.18 MEMBER GOLDBERG: Hi. This is Larry19 Goldberg from WGBH in Boston Media Access Group. I20 had a question about both the reporting and21 potentially the policy decisions made on the volume of22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 41 these complaints.1 I am an avid reader of the daily digest2 and see a tremendous number of particularly slamming3 complaints that are received and resolved. These are4 basically complaints made and decisions made based on5 the volume of the complaints, the top ten list also.6 I know there are a lot less complaints7 about access issues. It's very hard for you to make8 any decisions based on the quality of a complaint,9 instead of quantity, but because there are so few10 access complaints, it's a smaller population,11 communications problems are endemic, I am concerned12 that all of those access issues are getting sort of13 buried.14 Certainly in the quarterly report, you15 won't see them in the top ten often. Sometimes you16 will. But there's a difference between a two-dollar17 overcharge in your phone bill and the fact that there18 were no captions during an emergency, for instance. 19 I know that's a quality issue.20 I think a lot of the disability access21 complaints are really played down significantly.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 42 MR. WYATT: If I can come in next, I would1 like to differ with you. By all means, are they2 varied. I think we probably scrutinize access3 complaints as much or more than any other complaints.4 You mentioned that we don't get as many. 5 That's very true. We don't get a lot of access6 complaints, but we do scrutinize them. We share7 information with the Enforcement Bureau. We have a8 telephone accessibility specialist whose primary job9 is to really zero in on those complaints and identify10 issues that might require some explanation.11 I personally have been involved in12 mediating some access complaints over the past year. 13 That tells you as well that we take them very14 seriously. And if there are issues raised that15 require more attention within the bureau, then they16 certainly receive it.17 So the fact that they don't appear on the18 quarterly report as one of the top categories by no19 means reflects the seriousness with which they take20 them.21 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Joy, I think you were22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 43 next.1 MEMBER RAGSDALE: Good morning. Joy2 Ragsdale with the Office of People's Counsel,3 representing NASUCA, state utility consumer advocates.4 I have several questions, the first one in5 regards to the jurisdiction. How do you guide the6 consumer in understanding where they should go to file7 their complaint?8 NASUCA is also interested in establishing9 a point-to-point relationship with FCC, not10 representatives at the call center but key staff11 members where we can help guide our consumers without12 having to go through the normal process.13 My local office, the Office of People's14 Counsel for D.C., we have a good relationship with15 Martha Contee. So we are able to call her directly. 16 And some of the other member offices would also like17 to establish that type of relationship across the18 country. So that's I guess a two-part question.19 MR. WYATT: Well, we really try to put a20 lot of information in our fact sheets that really draw21 the line in terms of what should come to us and what22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 44 should go to the states. We are always looking to1 improve those fact sheets.2 We also post information on the internet. 3 And we also supply our CAMS with scripts that they can4 use in responding to questions along jurisdictional5 lines.6 It's a challenge because there are so many7 overlapping areas. It's tough to sort them out8 sometimes, but what we try to do is make sure that our9 fact sheets are as clear as possible. We have10 information on the internet. Consumers can access11 that and make a decision about where to go.12 We also try to make sure that we can13 facilitate the exchange of information between us and14 our state counterparts. So, for example, if we15 receive a complaint that we think belongs to a state,16 then we know who at that state to contact and send17 that complaint to. So we try to speed the process18 along. Sometimes we'll tell the consumer, "You should19 go there" or sometimes we'll take the complaint and20 actually send it there on a consumer's behalf. That21 works as well.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 45 So it's a challenge. And I think the key1 is to try to get good information out to consumers,2 make sure that the CAMS are able to answer questions3 about jurisdiction and direct the complaints4 accordingly.5 MEMBER RAGSDALE: So you said you would6 send it to the commissions as your counterpart or7 would you also be interested in sending it to the8 NASUCA offices or other consumer advocate offices?9 MR. WYATT: We try to ascertain what other10 agency organization has some control or involvement11 with the complaints. Once we identify who the best12 party is to handle the complaint, our goal is to get13 it to that party, so not necessarily a state14 commission. It could be another state agency. For15 example, local franchising authorities receive a lot16 of referrals from us on cable-related complaints.17 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Joe, if you have a18 short follow-up? Stick your hand up.19 MEMBER GORDON: Joe Gordon, League for20 Hard of Hearing. I would imagine you get a lot of21 complaints that are not under your jurisdiction, but22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 46 do you ever write a letter of concern?1 I'm specifically speaking about TV Guide,2 which we all know no longer publishes "CC," "Closed3 Captioning," in their TV Guide, which is really4 something nobody understands. If you get complaints5 on that and TV Guide doesn't fall under your6 jurisdiction, would you ever write a letter of concern7 about something like that?8 MR. WYATT: Let me answer that this way. 9 That would be a call that would be made by probably10 someone well above me because clearly we have no11 jurisdiction over TV Guide. I mean, who am I to call12 them and even give them a recommendation? That's13 something that I would imagine that if the commission14 is inclined to do it, it would be a decision made by15 someone much higher than me.16 this whole thing we typically don't do. 17 We don't have jurisdiction. I mean, we don't inure,18 if I can use that word, to areas where we clearly19 don't have a jurisdiction because there are a lot of20 people that don't appreciate that.21 And we have so many areas where we do have22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 47 jurisdiction that it's somewhat of a resource issue1 for us as well.2 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thomas, thank you3 ever so much for being with us. Obviously everyone4 has enjoyed having you again.5 (Applause.)6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I'm sorry. Thomas,7 can we bring you back? I'm sorry. Susan, I totally8 missed your hand. Please forgive.9 MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI: Okay. This is10 Susan Palmer-Mazrui for Cingular Wireless. I11 apologize for making you come back.12 I was wondering if there was a possibility13 of addressing some of Larry's concerns. I know in14 terms of numbers the complaints won't be in the top15 ten for accessibility or other pertinent issues.16 I'm wondering if there could be a section17 that would talk about concerns or trends or issues18 that might highlight the dedication that your staff19 has on the issue and that as well on a daily release20 that that goes out because I think that there really21 hasn't been a lot of information. It may be resolved,22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 48 but you might prevent some complaints if companies and1 organizations know that you're looking into it and2 taking steps to resolve things.3 MR. WYATT: I think that's something that4 we can consider doing. I don't know whether that's5 something that would come out of one of the working6 groups, their recommendations, but we're certainly7 willing to take that up as a recommendation and see8 what we can do with it. I think it would have some9 value to consumers. So I'm certainly more than10 willing to take that up.11 It's a clarification question for Scott. 12 Scott, is that something that would come to us as a13 recommendation?14 MR. MARSHALL: I'm sorry, Thomas. What15 was the question again?16 MR. WYATT: Expanding the scope of our17 quarterly report to include complaints that don't fall18 within the top categories?19 MR. MARSHALL: Sure. Yes. That certainly20 would fall into the consumer complaints outreach and21 education working group's purview.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 49 MR. WYATT: Again, I would be happy to1 take that recommendation and work with it.2 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Debbie, if your3 question is very fast? It's got to be fast.4 MEMBER BERLYN: I hope so. I just wanted5 to ask what you do to anticipate a new and high volume6 of complaints that might be on the horizon. For7 example, on the eve of the implementation of wireless8 LNP, actually wireline LNP, I'm just wondering if you9 have taken any steps to anticipate complaints on that?10 MR. WYATT: Oh, boy, have we.11 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: There is your answer.12 MR. WYATT: We learned many hard lessons13 over the years. We know now that we need to prepare14 when there's a major initiative launched by the15 commission because consumers are going to call us,16 they're going to e-mail us, and they're going to write17 us. We need to be prepared to take that18 correspondence and deal with it.19 So we've had very detailed training for20 our CAMS. We have talked extensively with our21 colleagues in the Wallace Bureau to make sure that we22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 50 understand what we should be saying to consumers.1 We've talked to some of our counterparts2 in industry about issues and how they're going to deal3 with them so that we can be as consistent as possible4 so that we'll know where to steer consumers as well5 because our goal is to really get consumers an answer.6 And if we know where to send them out to companies,7 then that really helps our process.8 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you ever so9 much for coming back.10 (Applause.)11 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Just a reminder, the12 drill starts at five after 10:00. You need to be in13 your rooms. You cannot go visit other groups while14 that process is going on for about a half an hour. 15 After that, if you want to sit in on several of the16 other working groups, you can do that.17 Does anyone have any questions before we18 break?19 (No response.)20 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: You will be back here21 at 12:00 o'clock for lunch. As far as where you're22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 51 going?1 MR. MARSHALL: The rooms are right out2 this door to my right and down the corridor. They are3 on either side of the corridor. There is signage4 there for each group. And we have FCC staff that will5 be able to direct you as well. Again, the TRS group6 will stay right here. And the other three working7 groups will adjourn to those rooms. It's 402 and 4458 B and C are the actual room numbers.9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Thank you10 much. We will be back here at noon.11 (Whereupon, at 9:49 p.m., the foregoing12 matter was recessed, to reconvene at13 12:00 noon the same day.)14 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 52 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N1 (12:11 p.m.)2 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: If everyone would3 come back to the table, please? We've got an4 interesting presentation during lunch. I appreciate5 your courtesy in doing that. Hint, hint.6 It gives me a great pleasure to turn the7 CAC over to Andrea Williams, who is one of our8 members, who is going to talk about some new9 developments. I am going to let you just take it from10 there, Andrea.11 MEMBER WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you,12 Shirley.13 PRESENTATION: VOLUNTARY CONSUMER INFORMATION CODE14 MEMBER WILLIAMS: first of all, I wanted15 to thank Shirley and Scott for giving CTIA the16 opportunity to talk about some of the things that we17 are doing with respect to wireless consumer18 complaints, how we are trying to make it better for19 our consumers.20 And what I am going to talk about today is21 the CTIA consumer code for wireless service and also22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 53 let you know where we are on wireless number1 portability. As we all know, that's four days away. 2 And we will let you know where we are.3 One of the things that we wanted to do4 when CTIA was developing a consumer code for wireless5 services, we are trying to find as many opportunities6 as we can to get the word out to consumers, what it7 is, what they can expect.8 We thought it would be great to have the9 consumer advisory committee make a presentation to10 members since you represent some of the largest11 consumer advocacy groups as well as some of the state12 agencies that deal with consumers and as a vehicle to13 really help us get the word out to consumers so that14 they can get information so that they can make15 informed choices about their wireless services.16 On September 9th, 2003, we, CTIA, publicly17 announced the consumer code for wireless service. And18 we unveiled what we call the official seal of19 wireless-quality consumer information. What I am20 going to tell you about a little bit, what the purpose21 is and also in terms of what the purpose of the seal22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 54 is, this program that CTIA has developed has been over1 a year in developing.2 Really, it started, I would say, almost3 two years ago with a phone call from Thomas Wyatt and4 Martha Contee to me saying, "We see a trend in5 wireless complaints. Come over. Let's talk about it6 and see where we're going."7 The research director, myself came over. 8 We had a meeting with Thomas and Martha showing us9 where they had seen a spike in number of wireless10 complaints. Around that time, also things were11 happening on the Hill and in California and other12 states in terms of wireless services and getting13 information to consumers.14 So what we did, as CTIA always does, we go15 to the heads of our member companies, which are16 presidents and CEOs, and say, "How can we help our17 customers understand better how to make informed18 choices about wireless services?"19 Believe me, when you get six major20 competitors sitting in a room trying to reach some21 consensus, it's not easy. To say that we have come22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 55 this far in a year, believe me, someone called me. 1 They said, you know, "Andrea, I'm going to give you2 sainthood for hurting CAS. It's called sainthood for3 hurting wireless members."4 We realize that as a growing industry --5 and right now, as many of you know, we have6 experienced a fantastic growth, particularly in the7 last couple of years.8 What we are seeing is over 115 million9 subscribers. The interesting thing, even though we10 have a large number and we continue to grow, we are11 finding that per capita, our wireless complaints have12 fallen or are holding steady based on our meetings,13 the information that we are getting from the FCC.14 We realize as a growing industry that we15 also have a responsibility to consumers. What we are16 trying to do with the code is to help consumers better17 understand what they can expect from the wireless18 service provider. It's the wireless industry I feel19 that is making an important statement about our20 commitment to our customers and to service quality.21 There are three basic tenets of the code. 22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 56 First is to provide consumers with information to help1 them make informed choices in selecting wireless2 services, help ensure that consumers understand their3 wireless service and rate plans, and to continue4 offering wireless services that meet consumers' needs.5 What we did in terms of looking at what6 should be in this consumer code for wireless service,7 there are basically ten points. There is a handout8 that sort of gives you -- I am just going to go9 through basically the basic what the ten points are,10 but there is more information in terms of defining and11 explaining each of those ten points.12 What we did with the help of the FCC in13 terms of they provided us with some of the informal14 complaints as well as the inquiries and also talking15 to some of the state consumer agencies and even some16 of the consumer advocacy groups, trying to identify17 what were some of the issues of greatest concerns to18 consumers.19 And we found that they would basically fit20 in three areas. First was how rates and terms of21 service are disclosed, including clear service area22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 57 maps and addressing termination rights and privacy1 concerns.2 What we came up with, again, is this3 ten-point consumer code for wireless service,4 disclosed rates and terms of service to consumers,5 make available maps showing where service is generally6 available, provide contract terms to customers, and7 confirm changes in service, allow a trial period for8 new service, -- and as part of the code, the trial9 period is a minimum of 14 days -- provide specific10 disclosures in advertising, separately identify11 carrier charges from taxes on billing statements,12 provide customers a right to terminate services for13 changes to contract terms, provide ready access to14 custom service, promptly respond to consumer inquiries15 and complaints received from governmental agencies,16 and abide by policies for protection of consumer17 privacy.18 When we launch this, you will find that19 many of the nation's large carriers are implementing. 20 Some already have fully implemented. Some are still21 in the process.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 58 For example, Alltel; ATT Wireless;1 Cingular; Verizon; Nextel; Sprint PCS; for those of2 you in the Midwest, U.S. Cellular; T-Mobile; U.S.A.,3 all of them have adopted these principles of the code,4 not only our large carriers but we're also finding5 many, many of our small carriers are also adopting the6 code. Again, we're still in implementation stages. 7 So you are going to probably see what I will next show8 you as a seal on various Web sites.9 This is a seal of wireless quality10 consumer information. You've heard that saying, "Look11 for the seal." That's what we want customers and12 consumers to do, is look for the seal of wireless13 quality consumer information.14 Not everyone gets to use a seal. What the15 seal does, it marks a carrier's voluntary16 participation in CTIA's voluntary consumer information17 code program. And it signifies that the carrier18 supports not only the basic tenets of the code but19 also that they adopt the principles, disclosures, and20 practices that are outlined in the ten-point that you21 just saw, and that they are fully implemented, those22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 59 practices, throughout their operations.1 So you can imagine for nationwide2 carriers, this has been a tremendous process for them3 over the last couple of months, particularly if they4 wanted to use a seal.5 At CTIA, with any type of seal, there is6 always the question, "Well, how can you assure that7 people are going to stay in compliance?" What we have8 done, we have set up an annual certification process,9 which is handled by CTIA's legal department, Mike also10 and me.11 In order to be awarded use of the seal,12 the company has to adhere to all ten points of the13 consumer code for wireless services, not just one or14 whatever they feel like; all ten.15 They have to certify to us in writing that16 they have adopted and have fully implemented the code17 throughout their operations. Usually that requires a18 signature from someone in senior management at the19 president/CEO level or senior vice president/executive20 vice president.21 What we have is an annual recertification.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 60 If you're not in compliance with the code, you will1 not be permitted to display the seal. I can tell you2 just from the three months of the program being3 launched publicly, the carriers, the seal has become4 very much a competitive issue among them.5 I get calls from my members saying, "Well,6 you know, so and so member has a seal. And did you7 see their coverage map? You need to take a look at8 this, Andrea" or I'll have carriers even saying,9 "Well, we were the first one to be certified. So we10 get to use the seal first."11 So it's having the impact that we had12 hoped it would. And it's making them aware, our13 members aware, that this is going to be an area where14 they are going to be competing for consumers. And it15 makes good business sense to voluntarily adopt the16 code.17 Because we are a trade association, it is18 a voluntary process. One of the interesting things I19 found out last week was that in I think one of the ETC20 proceedings, the carrier, one of the requisites that21 is being required in order to get ETC status, said22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 61 they have to adopt the code, the CTIA consumer code1 for wireless service, in order to gain ETC status.2 At CTIA, we feel that is a major, major3 event because what that says to us is that on a4 federal level, we're being recognized that this is5 something good for consumers as well as for carriers. 6 If you want ETC status, adopt the code.7 In terms of if you want more information8 on the consumer code for wireless service, you can go9 to CTIA's Web site. I am going to see if this works. 10 It should come up. Well, while we're waiting,11 basically if you go to CTIA's Web site, there is a12 display of the seal. When you click that on, there is13 all of the information. Most of this is information,14 what you have in your handouts in terms of the15 consumer codes. There's Q&A's.16 At any rate, in terms of those of you who17 have consumer advocacy groups and state consumer18 advocacy agencies, if you like for CTIA to come and19 talk to your groups about the code of consumer20 wireless, the consumer code for wireless service, we21 would be happy to do so.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 62 It's important that we get this1 information out to consumers. Feel free to link your2 constituents, your clients, the public, whoever you3 deal with, to our site where they can get information.4 Eva Won, who is dealing with the state5 level on these issues, she is the contact person at6 CTIA or you can always call me. Everyone here I think7 knows where they can reach me.8 Shirley, do you want me to divide this up9 in terms of taking questions on this and then talk10 about wireless number portability?11 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Why don't we take12 questions on your code because I have one?13 MEMBER WILLIAMS: Sure.14 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I like what you're15 saying. The question that I have for you is when,16 let's say, I as a consumer go to a retailer of17 wireless phones and services. What is their18 obligation to provide me with this information? You19 are talking about the major carriers; correct?20 Let's suppose I go to a small company that21 is a seller of these services.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 63 MEMBER WILLIAMS: Well, the wireless1 consumer code, we only represent carriers. And we do2 have some members who are -- well, just one, really,3 Virgin Mobile U.S.A. This is not something that we4 have heard yet.5 I think what you are talking about is the6 retail distribution program, like the Best Buys and7 the Radio Shacks.8 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Yes, or small vendors9 who also sell phones.10 MEMBER WILLIAMS: Like kiosks in the mall?11 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Yes, whatever,12 whatever size they might be.13 MEMBER WILLIAMS: Right. We would love to14 have them. Would they participate? Right now the15 code is just being launched and implemented in the16 carriers' stores. Unfortunately, we do not have, the17 trade association does not have, a relationship with18 those entities.19 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: The company20 ultimately is going to have me as a customer, one of21 your wireless carriers, right? So would the carrier22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 64 then send me the information on the ten points and1 deal with me directly?2 MEMBER WILLIAMS: Yes. You can go3 directly.4 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I may not get it from5 this independent retailer, but I would get it from the6 carrier?7 MEMBER WILLIAMS: Yes.8 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay.9 MEMBER WILLIAMS: Any carrier who10 voluntarily is participating. And, as I said, on11 their Web site, you have a seal. I wanted to show you12 what some of the carriers have also put out, brochures13 with this information as well. All you have to do is14 call their customer service. They'll send you the15 information you need.16 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Why don't we see? 17 Susan has a question and then Debra. Oh, she has a18 follow-up to mine if you don't mind.19 MEMBER BERLYN: Thank you.20 Wouldn't this code be on information when21 you go to purchase your wireless phone?22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 65 MEMBER WILLIAMS: It is really up to the1 carriers in terms of how they display the information.2 Some carriers I know -- Susan, I hope you don't mind3 if I pick on you -- Cingular. When you go to4 Cingular's Web site, there's a seal there. You click5 it on. And up comes the information on the ten-point6 program.7 Cingular also has in their stores at the8 point of display information about the code. Also in9 their advertising, they have, in fact, said, you know,10 first nation carrier to be certified to use the seal. 11 And it has a number there where you can call to get12 additional information about the code.13 We wanted to also make the code in terms14 of how they use the seal flexible so they could use it15 in their advertising, their marketing, if they want to16 use it in their radio ads, if they wanted to use it in17 their television ads.18 You have to remember we're dealing with19 not only nationwide carriers but also small carriers,20 rural carriers, and the goal here was to make it broad21 enough so everyone could use it. Sometimes you have22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 66 different needs. So that was quite a challenge.1 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: All right. Susan?2 MEMBER GRANT: I have not only a question3 but just to follow-up on Debra's point. I think the4 point that she was making was that for the disclosure5 parts of the code, those are only meaningful if6 they're before the transaction has been completed, not7 afterwards.8 MEMBER WILLIAMS: Yes. That's why in your9 information there is some more information in terms of10 what that entails in terms of disclosure. Each of the11 carriers had decided how they are going to disclose12 those terms and conditions.13 It may be, for example, some carriers have14 decided to do it when you purchase your Cingular15 phone, your Cingular service. You get all of this16 information in terms of what the ten-point code is,17 who you can call, and things of that nature.18 So it's really allowing the carrier the19 flexibility.20 MEMBER GRANT: Okay. Well, actually, that21 wasn't my comment or question, but I just wanted to22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 67 put that out. So here's my comment and question.1 The comment is that National Consumers2 League has a very popular brochure, "Going Wireless,"3 which we developed with a grant from Sprint. We are4 revising it slightly because of number portability and5 also translating it into Spanish. If that is6 something that your members would be interested in7 using as an educational tool for consumers, we would8 love to talk to you about that.9 My question is, in regard to the bullet10 point in the code about abiding by privacy policies,11 what privacy policies are those? Does CTIA have a12 privacy policy that --13 MEMBER WILLIAMS: These are the privacy14 policies that each of the companies have developed for15 their own companies. As you know, because you're16 dealing with a lot of the subscriber information; for17 example, even in wireless, there are certain ways that18 we have to handle customer proprietary network19 information, CPNI. What that is saying that you agree20 that you are abiding by the CPNI rules, whatever state21 rules that there may be in terms of privacy, whatever22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 68 your own company policies may be in terms of privacy1 issues.2 MEMBER GRANT: Okay. Thank you.3 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. I think we're4 going to have to move on. Maybe we can hold the5 questions until your next presentation and then if6 it's appropriate if you've got time.7 MEMBER WILLIAMS: Okay.8 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Because we want to9 get people a little bit of a break before we start our10 1:00 o'clock program.11 MEMBER WILLIAMS: Right. Wireless number12 portability or, as we at CTIA know it as, a lot of13 sleepless nights lately.14 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Say that again.15 MEMBER WILLIAMS: A lot of sleepless16 nights lately. We have four days to launch on17 November the 24th. I think this has been one of the18 most labor-intensive processes that we have been19 working on, particularly in terms of our networks,20 doing the appropriate testing, and getting technically21 what needs to be done to make this as smooth and22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 69 seamless as possible for customers.1 Basically, as we define wireless number2 portability, it means keeping your existing phone3 number and choosing the new carrier to provide your4 service.5 We have over the months been working on6 what we call wireless-to-wireless porting in terms of7 taking your number from one wireless provider to8 another. Just last week we got an order from the FCC9 what I call explaining the rules of the road with10 respect to inter-carrier from wireline to wireless. 11 I'll talk about that a little more in just a moment.12 As you know, starting Monday, wireless13 number portability is going to be available in the 10014 largest metropolitan areas nationwide. This is going15 to be one of our challenges we know in terms of the16 top 100 MSAs. There are various definitions floating17 around in terms of what constitute the top 100 MSAs.18 Again, as I said, we have been working19 24/7 for months now trying to make this as pleasant20 and smooth as possible for consumers. And, again,21 this sort of dovetails into our whole overall consumer22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 70 information program in terms of helping our customers1 understand and prepare for in this instance the2 porting process.3 What we have done at CTIA, we launched a4 consumer Web site. Let's see if we can try this again5 now. Hopefully this one will work. There it goes. 6 What it does is it explains the meaning for consumers7 in terms of what it means for number portability and8 available, again, in the top 100 MSAs. As you can9 see, we have over here a map. We've got to give them10 a list.11 The most important thing is that it12 provides what we consider are very good consumer tips13 and frequently asked questions on what they should14 know if they plan to change their number, move their15 number from one wireless service to another.16 I know we are sort of short on time, but17 I just want to give you an idea of some of the things18 that it tells consumers, like explaining how you can't19 take your number if you live in California and you20 want to port your number to D.C. Well, you can't take21 the same number because it's not within a local area.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 71 We have some issues again with the1 wireline, what we call intermodal porting in terms of2 what do you consider local in terms of I guess the3 best way, what we call rate centers. And that's an4 issue that hopefully the FCC is going to resolve for5 us by Monday; if not, maybe the courts.6 Also, in terms of what you should bring7 with you, knowing your current contract, finding a new8 phone and a new plan that fits for you. We also want9 to go to consumer tips. Well, that's taking too long.10 A copy of the consumer tips is in your brochure.11 What I think we are trying to help12 consumers understand is what is happening behind the13 scenes in terms of yes, this is a complicated process.14 What we are hearing from a number of analysts is that15 we can anticipate 15 to 20 million porting requests16 within the next 10 months. The concern is, especially17 within the next week, how many of those 15 to 2018 million people will be moving.19 Also in the site, we have basically a20 step-by-step process that explains to consumers what21 they can anticipate. This is what I show people in22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 72 terms of this is what is happening behind the scene1 when you want to port your number. And, as you can2 imagine, any break or any glitch in one aspect of3 those arrows can create some glitches.4 We anticipate yes, there are going to be5 some glitches the first couple of weeks. And we are6 doing our best, believe me, to work with our customers7 and work through those glitches. Our brethren over on8 the wireline side, we have learned some things from9 them in terms of managing customers' expectations,10 which we know is going to be a challenge.11 In terms of the industry readiness, we12 have been testing our systems, our networks carrier to13 carrier in terms of wireless to wireless carrier.14 At this point we have what we call in the15 wireless world network lockdown. And that means that16 after November 18th no additional software can be put17 into the networks. So it is what it is, the network,18 at this point.19 There is a lot of training going on in20 terms of customer service and sales staff. I just21 found out last night from my sister, who works for22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 73 Nextel in human resources. She said, "Oh, I went to1 my number portability training today."2 And I said, "You're in human resources." 3 She said, "Everybody in Nextel has number portability4 training." And she said, "Oh, don't worry." She5 said, "I understand all of our competitors are doing6 the same thing, too."7 The other readiness in terms of consumer8 education, CTIA's easy porting Web site is one thing9 that we are doing as a trade association; also, each10 of the carriers has on their Web sites or you call11 their customer service, have information to help12 consumers to understand what the porting process is.13 We also had a meeting last week with14 Thomas and Martha in terms of what we can anticipate15 in terms of some of the glitches, where some of the16 problems may be so we can anticipate educating with17 their respect CAMS, their customer service people and18 those particular problems that may come up.19 CTIA is a trade organization. We continue20 to monitor the testing on a daily basis. And we're21 keeping our members informed of any developments with22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 74 respect to inter-carrier communications for the1 process.2 I must tell you because of the lateness of3 FCC's order with respect to wireline to wireless4 porting, it has not been as fully tested, I would say,5 as wireless to wireless because there were some things6 that we really still needed some guidance from the7 FCC.8 Wireless industry, we are planning, anyone9 who comes to us with a wireline phone number and they10 want a port, we're going to be there ready to help11 them.12 Basically, here are some of the challenges13 that we foresee over the next couple of months,14 particularly the first two weeks of implementation. 15 One is managing consumer expectations.16 To give you a class example, this morning17 I was coming over in the cab. The taxi driver said to18 me, "Oh, where are you from?"19 I said, "Trade association."20 "Oh, wireless?"21 I said, "Yes."22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 75 He said, "Oh, I'm going to be able to move1 my number." He said, "I already know what service2 provider I'm going to."3 I said, "Well?"4 He said, "Do you think it's going to be5 easy?"6 I said, "Well, we're going to try to make7 it easy." And I said, "What carrier are you going8 to?"9 And he said, "Well, I'm going from carrier10 A to carrier B." I can't tell you because both of11 them are my members.12 Well, carrier A has one type of digital13 technology that's, say, CDMA. Carrier B has another14 type of different technology that's, say, GSM. I15 said, "Well, you know, you may have to get a new16 phone."17 "No. I want to keep my same phone."18 I said, "Well, you have two different19 digital technologies. And the phones are not going to20 work. The same phone is not going to work on both21 systems."22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 76 He said, "Oh. So I'm going to have to buy1 a new phone. I didn't plan on that. I'm glad you2 told me that. I don't know. Well, do you think3 they'll give me a deal?"4 I said, "Hey, I don't know. You have to5 talk to them about that."6 And then there's also in terms of early7 termination of contracts, that's why we tell you8 please, please, please read your contracts because9 just because you have the opportunity to port, you10 need to understand that if you decide to leave a11 carrier, say you have a one-year contract and your one12 year is not up, you may have to pay early termination13 fees in accordance with the contract.14 The other issue in terms of managing15 consumer expectations is how long the process is going16 to take. As I said, I showed you that chart before. 17 One glitch can create a problem. We're going to try18 our best to get the porting process done within two19 and a half hours, but it may be longer.20 One of the things that came up at our21 executive committee meeting was in terms of business22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 77 customers. For the wireless industry, say, for1 example, -- I'll use my husband's company --2 Bridgestone Firestone has an account with, let's say3 -- I'm going to pick on you -- Nextel and my husband4 decides he wants to change his service from Nextel to5 Cingular. Well, he is not the customer. Bridgestone6 Firestone is.7 So he may go into a store saying,8 "Cingular, here is my number. Port it." Well, he is9 not going to be able to because in terms of10 authorization, Cingular is not going to be able to11 move that individual because the customer is12 Bridgestone Firestone.13 So helping consumers to manage their14 expectations, again, we are going to be ready as much15 as we can be. We do expect glitches, you know, but16 we'll work through them.17 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Andrea, I think we're18 going to have to call it a halt. I'll give you19 another minute.20 MEMBER WILLIAMS: Okay. In terms of some21 of the other challenges, I have them listed here. I22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 78 think in terms of the fringe counties, again, that's1 a top 100 MSA issue. We're finding that depending on2 if you use OMB or if you use Census Bureau, the top3 100 MSA may vary from one carrier to another.4 So carrier A may say, you know, "Howard5 County is in the Washington, D.C. area, top 100 MSAs,"6 and another carrier may say, "Well, no, not according7 to the Census Bureau." So we expect some problems8 there as well and also with retail distribution9 outlets.10 Again, you have your Best Buys, your Radio11 Shack. As you know, with a competitive wireless12 industry, they're selling five, six different service13 providers' services and may not have the level of14 knowledge as a store would have, what I call a15 carrier-owned store. So we're expecting some16 challenges there.17 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you ever so18 much. I appreciate it very much.19 MEMBER WILLIAMS: Okay.20 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: We have a ten-minute21 break. You need to be back here at 1:00 o'clock22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 79 promptly.1 MEMBER WILLIAMS: Thank you very much.2 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you.3 MEMBER WILLIAMS: And if anyone has any4 questions, I'm here.5 (Applause.)6 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter went off7 the record at 12:50 p.m. and went back on8 the record at 1:08 p.m.)9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Please, if I could10 have your attention? We have some guests with us, and11 we would like to welcome them. So, please, if you12 could take your chairs, we would really appreciate13 that.14 It gives me a great deal of pleasure to15 welcome I believe the newest commissioner to the FCC,16 Commissioner Jonathan Adelstein. We're lucky to have17 you with us here. Thank you for joining us.18 (Applause.)19 MR. ADELSTEIN: Thanks for having me. I20 just wanted to thank you all for all the work you do21 on behalf of all of my colleagues. I know how much22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 80 time and effort you put into these issues.1 It means a lot to us. For example, we're2 really looking forward to hearing what you have to say3 on the TRS working group report. That's going to I4 think form a basis for our actions.5 We're hoping to move quickly on that6 because we take the kind of work that you do extremely7 seriously. We're hoping, for example, on the TRS to8 try to get an item moving early next year. Your input9 on that is going to be the basis for our items.10 Just know that what you're doing here is11 going to see the light of day, that we are going to12 move on it. Things like this are so crucial in the13 context of homeland security and the need for all14 Americans to have all the protections that they15 deserve.16 So it's wonderful to be here. I see that17 we have ARP here today. Reading the headlines this18 morning, I think this is a safe haven for you.19 (Laughter.)20 MR. ADELSTEIN: You are all welcome here. 21 And we really do appreciate all the work that you do. 22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 81 I just wanted to let you know that we take it so1 seriously and that we plan to actually act on it and2 to thank you for your time and your dedication to3 serving us with nothing but the goodness of your4 hearts and knowing that you're doing the right thing5 for your country and to help us to do the right thing6 for the consumers, who are also the most important7 constituency that we serve.8 Our job, we have a telecommunications act.9 In the Telecommunications Act of '34, we focused on10 the public interest over 100 times. So it forms the11 very essence of what Congress intended us to do. And12 the public interest is shaped by what best serves13 consumers.14 So this is a crucial activity that you're15 involved in, and we really appreciate all your help16 and your input. So thank you for being here.17 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you so much. 18 We really appreciate it.19 (Applause.)20 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Do you want to take21 a couple of questions? Do you have time to take22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 82 questions, a couple?1 MR. ADELSTEIN: Sure. If there is2 anything that you would like me to respond to, I would3 be happy to. I don't want to impede your work, but is4 there anything on your minds?5 (No response.)6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you so much.7 MR. ADELSTEIN: All right. Well, thanks8 for --9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: We really appreciate10 your being here.11 MR. ADELSTEIN: Sure.12 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I would like to take13 this opportunity to welcome Dane Snowden, who is the14 chief of the Consumer and Governmental Affairs Bureau15 and a familiar face to all of us. Welcome, Dane.16 (Applause.)17 MR. SNOWDEN: Hello, hello. I thank you18 very much, Commissioner Adelstein.19 INTRODUCTION OF THE CHAIRMAN AND COMMISSIONERS20 MR. SNOWDEN: It's good to be back here21 with you guys. It's been a little while. I apologize22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 83 for being a little bit tardy. I was on a phone call1 dealing with some local number portability issues, and2 I saw Andrea's presentation from my office. So good3 job, Andrea. I won't belabor some of those points.4 Before I got into some of my comments5 today, I wanted to introduce two members from the6 commission as well, Christopher Libertelli, who is the7 chairman's senior legal adviser. You all may8 recognize Chris used to be a legal adviser in the9 Wireline Competition Bureau, and he moved up to the10 chairman's office and now has assumed the ranks as11 being the senior legal adviser. So he keeps all of us12 in line. Jennifer Manner, who is a legal adviser to13 Commissioner Kathleen Abernathy. They wanted to come14 down and show their thanks and appreciation for all15 that you all do in serving on this committee.16 I wanted to join Commissioner Adelstein17 and others in saying welcome and thank you very much.18 UPDATE ON THE CONSUMER &19 GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS BUREAU20 MR. SNOWDEN: It's been a very busy time21 since the last time you all were here. We've gotten22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 84 a lot of things done, as you might imagine.1 Of course, I would be remiss if I didn't2 mention the TCPA and what we have done with the3 national do not call registry. As you know, this has4 gone back and forth. As we like to say, we are5 cautiously optimistic that the 54 million Americans6 who signed their name up on that list will be proven7 right and will be allowed to have this list and this8 registry stay in business, as it is right now.9 As you know, the registry and the issue of10 the constitutionality of it involved many courts. 11 And, of course, as I said earlier, it involved a12 district court judge, two federal courts, two federal13 agencies, United States Supreme Court, the White14 House, and the U.S. Congress.15 An interesting fact is that the U.S.16 Congress when the constitutionality of the do not call17 list was called in question, the United States18 Congress acted the quickest they have ever acted in a19 peacetime setting ever. So that tells you, I think,20 our folks on the Hill realize that the Americans21 across the country wanted this list, they need this22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 85 list, and they are going to get this list according to1 what we are doing and what they are doing as well.2 I did want to mention some outreach3 activities that we have been working on here at the4 commission. In August, we launched, the chairman5 launched, a rule, outreach initiative, where we are6 looking at ensuring that Americans across the country,7 particularly in rural America, have access to8 telecommunications services that so many of us who9 live in urban areas have.10 Just a couple of weeks ago, we launched a11 telemedicine effort, where we went down to the12 University of Virginia and saw firsthand how the goals13 of universal service, that fee we all pay on our14 telephone bill, how it's being put to use in rural15 America, ensure that medical attention is given to16 those Americans who live in rural America, the same17 levels that they are giving to all of us in urban18 areas. So we are very excited about that.19 Part of that initiative will be doing more20 outreach events in rural America, partnering with the21 Appalachian regional council and other members in22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 86 rural America. We are going to look at the delta1 communities; the breadbasket area; and, of course,2 Alaska and our tribal partners as well. So there is3 a lot of activity coming from the commission on that.4 We also had an E911 coordination5 initiative, which was in October. This is an6 important initiative because we believe and the7 chairman has said it quite clearly that if you pay on8 your wireless bill for E911 every month, you should9 have it.10 And so the commission, the chairman is11 using his bully pulpit to galvanize and pull and12 coordinate all of the parties together because we13 don't regulate all of the parties who are involved in14 the E911 process. So we want to make sure that what15 we can do as our part is pulling everyone together.16 We recently had the governors' designees17 from across the country come and participate with us,18 talk about the issue, and what are the challenges that19 we're seeing that are being faced with having20 deployment with E911.21 We like to tell consumers, quite candidly,22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 87 decide on a carrier based on their E911 service. That1 is very important. Use that as a discriminate point2 of why you're going to purchase a particular product. 3 So we'll have more coordination issues in 2004, but4 rest assured this is a priority for the commission as5 we move forward.6 Finally, I would be remiss if I didn't at7 least mention local number portability, which is the8 topic du jour, which seems to be more the topic of the9 month. I don't know how to say "month" in French, but10 topic of the month. I can say mesa, which is in11 Spanish.12 We are very excited about this, the13 chairman on down. We are leading our own. Along with14 the members of the industry, I know CTIA is involved15 is involved in this as well. We are leading our own16 campaigning, making sure that people are aware about17 what the options are about local number portability.18 This is a great, great thing for the19 American consumer. Consumers wants it. I know there20 might be some, even some in this room, -- I'm not sure21 -- who might contest our rules, but rest assured the22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 88 commission will stand to fight any legal opposition1 that comes toward us because this is something that we2 think is right.3 It's good for competition. It's good for4 consumers. And I have to say it's also good for the5 industry as a whole because it will make the industry6 be more competitive and fight for your business. And7 I think that's good ultimately for the American8 consumer.9 In conjunction with the local number10 portability, we, of course, have launched some of our11 fact sheets and our checklists of what consumers12 should know. We, of course, are very clear in the13 sense that we understand that this is going to be a14 bumpy road over the next couple of months as we roll15 out local number portability, but we also know that we16 have got to start somewhere. And we're starting on17 November 24th.18 The chairman, some of us, you see, were a19 little tired. We have been up since 4:00 this morning20 doing a satellite media tour that the chairman led21 getting across the whole country talking about local22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 89 number portability to various television stations.1 He did that, and he is committed to that2 because he wants to make sure: one, people know what3 is coming; and, two, what they need to do. I think4 Andrea talked about this a little earlier, about some5 of the steps that consumers should do.6 One, in particular, we like to say is read7 your contract beforehand and if you do decide to port,8 bring a telephone bill with you because it makes the9 porting process go so much smoother.10 We are very excited about a lot of the pro11 consumer initiatives that we have taken since your12 last meeting. We look forward to your guidance, your13 thoughts, and your comments as we go forward.14 I would like to say before I close and15 take some questions the work that you all have done,16 when I got a briefing from my staff on the working17 groups, I just want to say thank you and commend you18 for your good work.19 As some of you know, I joined the20 commission about three years ago, when we had CDTAC21 and now CAC. Quite candidly, -- and I don't mean to22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 90 talk out of school here, but, quite candidly, this1 committee was finding its way. I can tell you now by2 looking at the great work that is being done, this3 committee has found its way and is doing the work that4 the commission needs it to do as we go through and5 navigate some of these prickly issues, these technical6 issues, but these very important issues.7 So I want to thank the working groups for8 all of their hard work. And, of course, you're not9 off the hook. So we hopefully will continue. Please10 note that our sincere thanks from the chairman on down11 for the good work that you all have been doing, I know12 on your own time, not just when you're here but when13 you're outside this building.14 So, again, I thank you for that, and I15 will be more than happy to answer any questions you16 have before I have to go back upstairs.17 Yes, ma'am?18 MEMBER RAGSDALE: Hello. Joy Ragsdale19 from NASUCA.20 Can you tell us more about the satellite21 media tour?22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 91 MR. SNOWDEN: Sure. It's a process where1 you can get the biggest bang for your buck in a way. 2 We started this morning. The chairman had to be there3 bright and early. We started at 6:00-something, first4 interview. Literally you do a series of about 30-some5 odd interviews across the country talking about the6 same issue.7 Basically TV stations log in through the8 satellite and start asking the chairman questions. 9 Bless his heart, he had to answer the same question10 probably over and over and over and over and over11 again, but he got it down. I'll tell you that.12 It is a great thing. It allows us to13 reach as many Americans as we possibly can. We14 targeted the 100 markets, the 100 markets that the LNP15 is rolling out first. That was intentional because we16 wanted to make sure people in those markets who can17 get it right now are aware of what the process is. 18 And so it's our way of trying to reach out to19 consumers more and more as we go forward with these20 consumer-type issues.21 You will see us doing things like this or22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 92 something similar to this when we have consumer-type1 issues, when we talk about the triennial review. It's2 not something that most Americans understand or care3 about, although it is important in terms of what4 happens in the telecom world for them.5 We want to make sure we can get out there6 on these consumer issues. We didn't necessarily have7 to do them on the do not call because I think the8 media did a very good job of covering this issue.9 We believe that, as you have seen in some10 accounts in the industry as well, on local number11 portability as of Monday, we will see more and more12 media outlets taking the lead in the bandwagon of13 sharing this information with consumers across the14 board.15 So that's what happens. It's a great16 thing. It's not an easy thing. I will say that. And17 the chairman was a trooper for doing it because it's18 a long day. As you know, as I said earlier, we got up19 at 4:00 in the morning to make sure we were there on20 time.21 MEMBER RAGSDALE: Is it a taped show?22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 93 MR. SNOWDEN: No. They're live programs. 1 The way the media works is that obviously they do a2 live segment first. And then they will package it and3 show it throughout.4 I'm sure a lot of stations will run it5 again on Monday because we did, of course, show it6 here in this market, in Washington, and run it across7 the country, Minneapolis, Philadelphia, North8 Carolina. Again, I've been up since 4:00. So I am9 kind of blurring my states right now, but it was10 across the country.11 Any other questions? Yes?12 MEMBER GOLDBERG: Larry Goldberg here.13 Can you tell me, do you know what the14 status is of the FCC's reauthorization on the Hill?15 (Laughter.)16 MR. SNOWDEN: Didn't you hear me say I got17 up at 4:00 this morning?18 (Laughter.)19 MR. SNOWDEN: I believe it is in the20 omnibus bill right now and it is not out of committee21 just yet. So we are still waiting to hear, and we are22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 94 eagerly anticipating that we would get what we need so1 we can keep moving. We're optimistic. Put it that2 way.3 MEMBER WILLIAMS: Can you hear me?4 MR. SNOWDEN: Yes.5 MEMBER WILLIAMS: Dane, I know that over6 the last couple of months, you all, particularly your7 bureau, has been doing a lot of work with respect to8 tribal nations. I'm wondering how receptive and9 effective you found the work in terns of the forums,10 the different forums, you have been having and are11 they well-attended?12 MR. SNOWDEN: That's a great question, and13 it's not a plan. I'm glad you asked that question.14 MEMBER WILLIAMS: No.15 MR. SNOWDEN: You allowed me to give a16 commercial without having to pay for it.17 As some of you may know, when Chairman18 Powell became the chairman, one of the things he said19 to me directly was we need to do more with our Indian20 relations.21 We have a responsibility, a22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 95 government-to-government responsibility, with our1 tribal nations. There are about 550 tribal nations2 across the country.3 So we have embarked on a very aggressive4 plan to reach out to tribal communities. Recently, in5 September, members of my staff and the Wireline6 Competition Bureau and International Bureau, we all7 traveled to Alaska because we are looking at the8 unique issues that relate to the individual tribes and9 also relate to different geographical regions10 throughout the country that deal with tribes.11 No one tribe is alike. At one point in12 the commission, we had the idea of having a massive13 meeting with all of the tribes coming together. And14 as we talked to the tribes, we realized that they are15 at different stages of development and growth.16 Some tribes have their own17 telecommunications facilities. Some are trying to18 figure out how to get their schools up and running. 19 So when you have those two vast differences between20 the tribes, we needed to come up with something new,21 something different.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 96 And so we have launched our Indian1 telecommunications initiative. The goal behind it is2 to bring some of the programs that the commission has;3 for example, the expanded lifeline linkup program that4 is only available to individuals on reservations. 5 We're making sure people are aware of those programs. 6 We're also bringing the commission to them.7 It's interesting as you look at the8 various tribes around the country and the various9 stages of development that they're in. We want to10 make sure that they have access to the commission. 11 And we have been doing that.12 So the answer to your question about how13 effective it has been, I am probably not the best14 person to ask, but I will tell you my opinion. I15 think it has been very effective, but we have a lot16 more work to do. And we are committed to doing that17 work in the months and years to come here at the FCC.18 Any other questions?19 (No response.)20 MR. SNOWDEN: With that, again, all the21 best for a successful meeting. I thank you again for22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 97 making your way here. And if there is any time you1 are here in town, even if you are not here for a2 meeting, please let us know. We will be more than3 happy to sit down and talk with you.4 I know I see some of you somewhat on a5 regular basis. I see Claude in front of me. So I6 look forward to seeing more of you more often. And I7 hope you all have a wonderful Thanksgiving and safe8 travels back to your homes.9 Thank you.10 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Dane, thank you.11 MR. SNOWDEN: Thank you.12 (Applause.)13 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: We really do14 appreciate the time you give to us, Dane. Thank you15 ever so much.16 I would just like to ask Chris and17 Jennifer if they want to say any words or anything. 18 Jennifer I believe has left, but, Chris, thank you. 19 Chris Libertelli, as you just heard, who is from20 Chairman Powell's office, welcome. Chris?21 MR. LIBERTELLI: Thank you very much. I22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 98 won't take up much of your time. Jennifer did have to1 go upstairs because she had an outside meeting, but I2 wanted to come down and just echo what Dane had said3 and thank you very much for coming here and expending4 your efforts. I know the companies that are5 represented here do this as a matter of largesse. And6 we appreciate your efforts.7 I also did want to say that the chairman's8 office is working closely with Dane's shop on some of9 the TRS issues that I know the task force is working10 on. We hope to move those recommendations into11 action, as Commissioner Adelstein said, in the12 beginning of 2004.13 So I thank you for those efforts. Good14 luck with today's meeting. And if there's anything15 the chairman's office can do to help you with your16 efforts, please don't be shy and let us know. Thank17 you.18 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you very much.19 (Applause.)20 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I do have a few21 announcements and a little bit of housekeeping to make22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 99 I promised to make. We will be taking requests for1 cabs at the break. So don't let me forget to do that,2 those of you who want to get a cab.3 Also, I just want to tell you that the FCC4 has some new fact sheets on the Web. So you may want5 to look them up at fcc.gov. There's quite a list of6 things.7 As a matter of fact, I have some of them8 here somewhere if I could find them, but, of course,9 I can't, not when I need it. That's what you get when10 you have a pile of paper in front of you.11 Here we go. The fact sheets include12 digital radio, do not call, homeland security,13 wireless number portability, digital phone and people14 with hearing disabilities calling 911 from a wireless15 phone, DTV, and closed captioning. And that's just a16 sampling. So you may want to go visit.17 Another thing that I want to tell you, you18 may be getting a call from the General Accounting19 Office. As far of their requirements and as they20 normally do, they are doing a study of all of the FCC21 federal advisory committees. Of course, that's what22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 100 we are.1 So you may be contacted to learn about2 your experiences on the CAC, which is a normal thing. 3 This is part of GAO's responsibility to keep oversight4 over these committees. So don't be alarmed. Answer5 any questions that they might have. And do say good6 things about your experience here.7 Some other items. Our next meeting -- we8 have a question, David? I'm sorry.9 MEMBER POEHLMAN: Shirley, I hate to ask10 this, but is there any way we can get that phone11 number so that we can be sure to answer the phone,12 those of us who have caller ID who don't answer13 telephone calls from numbers we don't know, or would14 they be kind enough to leave a message so we can call15 them back and talk to them?16 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I suspect if they17 want you, David, they will leave you a message.18 MEMBER POEHLMAN: I don't know.19 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I think they'll get20 you. They'll get you, David, we promise. It's21 unlikely that you will get a call, but I just want you22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 101 to know that if you do, that is what is going on. So1 don't be alarmed about it.2 As you know, the next meeting is scheduled3 for the 26th of March. The day before, the FCC is4 hosting a summit meeting of the stakeholders with5 regards to the needs of people with disabilities6 during a disaster or terror attack.7 Now, I know that this was discussed8 somewhat during the TRS working group. And what they9 are looking for is what to do in terms of emergencies.10 This meeting is going to take place the11 day before the regular CAC meeting. Then the12 recommendations that come out of that 25th meeting13 will be considered by us on the 26th as part of our14 agenda. So you will have those agenda items will be15 added. They have to be on the agenda, but we don't16 know what the items will be. So they will be up for17 discussion and recommendations for the commission.18 I really want to thank Brenda Kelly-Frey19 for her taking the lead in a lot of this. She has20 been one of the guiding lights behind the summit21 meeting, and we are really appreciative of that.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 102 TRS working group will be taking the lead1 in terms of participating in the summit meeting. I2 suspect if others of you are interested, that you3 would be welcome to join it if you're not on the TRS4 working group. But, anyway, that's kind of the story5 there.6 Also, another item -- and if you have7 agenda items that you would like to suggest for the8 March 26th meeting, just to let you know, you have got9 to get it to us at least six weeks in advance because10 that's so we can meet the requirements of the Federal11 Register.12 So if you've got some thoughts in your13 mind that you want something to put on the agenda for14 the 26th of March, you have got to let us know as soon15 as possible, really, because the agenda gets really16 cram-packed and there's not always room. So do17 forgive us if we can't accommodate your request for18 any particular item. Sometimes we just have already19 made the plans. Anyway, the sooner you let us know,20 the better.21 Now to get on to our next order of22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 103 business. Does anyone have any questions on anything?1 Yes, Joe?2 MEMBER GORDON: Can you give me some more3 information on the meeting on the 25th? Is it in this4 room, the hours?5 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I don't have that6 information. Scott, do you have it?7 MR. MARSHALL: I can give you a little8 information.9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Here we go.10 MR. MARSHALL: Hi. This is Scott11 Marshall.12 Joe, this is still in the planning stage. 13 I suspect it will be an all-day meeting on the 25th. 14 And it would be here in this room.15 MEMBER GORDON: Thank you.16 MR. MARSHALL: Okay.17 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Any other18 questions? Are we okay?19 (No response.)20 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: All right. Well,21 then let's just get right to the order of business,22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 104 which is to hear from our working groups. I want to1 say again how really excited I am and Scott is and, as2 you can hear, from the commission at the work that is3 being done by the working groups.4 I mean, it really is a very important5 process that we have been going through. And you all6 have done a great job. And it's because of you and7 your leaders. So we really thank you.8 We're going to start out. What we're9 going to do, this is what we're going to have happen. 10 We're going to have working group recommendations. 11 And after each of those, we will take it either as a12 whole or if you feel that it's important that we13 divide up the recommendations into separate items,14 they will be voted on. They will either be voted up15 or down as to whether or not they will be presented to16 the commission as a recommendation of the entire CAC.17 Does anybody have any questions about that18 process?19 MEMBER POEHLMAN: We can have a20 discussion, right?21 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Oh, we may let you22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 105 talk a little bit, David, yes. Yes, we are going to1 definitely have discussion. I cannot believe this2 group wouldn't have discussion.3 Well, let's start out. We are going to4 start out with the TRS working group, which, as you5 may recall, has been asked by the FCC to make comments6 on the TRS. So we're going to have that. Brenda7 Kelly-Frey is the chair.8 Brenda? Thank you again, Brenda, for all9 the work you have been doing.10 And you do have summaries of these in your11 agenda in your folder.12 WORKING GROUP RECOMMENDATIONS AND PROGRESS REPORTS13 TRS WORKING GROUP14 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: Good afternoon,15 everyone.16 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: And I should just17 explain something. I'm sorry to interrupt you. Each18 working group has a half an hour. So we have to get19 to the issues, and then we have to get to the20 discussion, and then we have to get to the vote. So21 we do have a jam-packed half-hour.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 106 I will give you a little leeway because I1 am looking at the clock because I know it's not right2 at 1:30. And I'm sorry. I really forgot my whip3 today to get everybody in line.4 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: Start?5 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Go.6 MEMBER KELLY-FREY (via interpreter): 7 Okay. First of all, I want to thank the FCC and8 Chairman Powell for inviting us and providing us the9 opportunity to make recommendations from NASRA, the10 National Association of State Relay Administration,11 and TRS industry consumer action network, as well as12 the consumers.13 We would like to thank the members of the14 working group, Becky Ladew, Stephen Gregory, Claude15 Stout, Pam Stewart, Clay Bowen, Dixie at Hamilton, and16 Patty Bannier, and also Joe Gordon.17 The objective of the TRS working group18 was: first of all, to address public access issues19 for TRS information and networks, to determine whether20 the FCC has the authority or the jurisdiction over the21 TRS national network and outreach, and also the22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 107 mechanism established for the network and outreach.1 Considerations given to TRS include as a2 priority restoration in emergency situations,3 providing the framework for the FCC's summit to be4 able to focus on homeland security issues.5 And Clay will also be speaking about6 addressing the public access to TRS information and7 network.8 MR. BOWEN: I'm Clay Bowen with Virginia9 Relay. Brenda and I were asked to present a workshop10 on national outreach at the National Association of11 State Relay Administration's conference in September.12 We had worked on this prior to the FCC13 NPRM on national outreach. So we decided to take that14 workshop as an opportunity to get feedback from the15 membership, from the consumers, from the vendors, and16 from the other stakeholders that were in attendance at17 the NASRA conference.18 We thought this would be an excellent19 vehicle to get feedback from a very diverse group, all20 of which are involved in TRS, and get answers to the21 specific questions that were addressed to this group22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 108 in the NPRM earlier this summer.1 Our workshop was scheduled for 45 minutes.2 We went almost an hour and 15 minutes before we were3 cut off. Dixie Ziegler of Hamilton and I stayed on4 stage for almost an additional half-hour. We got a5 lot of information to bring back.6 We summarized that information. And we7 presented it at the workgroup meeting, the CAC8 workgroup meeting on TRS, in September. To summarize9 that real quickly, these are specific responses to10 questions that were in the FCC NPRM.11 Approximately ten percent of outbound12 calls result in hangups. We found that no state or no13 provider actually tracked the number of hangup calls. 14 The ten percent figure was based on anecdotal15 information that we receive from state relay managers16 and from CAs themselves.17 We also found out that we could not18 determine that any far-reaching outreach efforts19 existed in the states. There were certainly states20 that had outreach programs, but they were specific to21 that state.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 109 Outreach activities were also maybe1 specific to a provider, meaning a particular provider,2 such as Sprint or Hamilton, would provide information3 or outreach to those states which they provided4 services to, but there were no nationwide efforts of5 a particular relay vendor for outreach.6 What came up, which was also referenced in7 the NPRM, was the information that's in the front of8 all telephone directories. This is perhaps the most9 common form of outreach that is out there. However,10 there are problems with that, too.11 The language that's in the phone books is12 not standardized. It's different in different areas13 of the country, even in different areas of the state. 14 It's sometimes not understandable. But it's most15 often discounted by businesses, by the hearing16 population as TRS being a service only for the deaf. 17 And it's not considered a part of a business or an18 employment opportunity or another way to communicate19 for the hearing population as well.20 Based on these recommendations, the TRS21 work group would like to recommend to the full CAC22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 110 committee that a coordinated information and outreach1 program can achieve a national consciousness on the2 use and benefits of TRS. And that's their3 recommendation to this committee.4 In our research, we found that the state's5 programs, as I had said, were either specific to a6 state, specific to a relay provider, or we found one7 example very close to home, that back last year,8 Maryland produced a series of commercials on relay9 that were specific to Maryland.10 However, DeVanie and Associates, the11 company, the marketing company, that produced those12 commercials, also made a generic version of that same13 commercial that spoke only of state, your state relay14 center, your state relay provider. Therefore, it15 became a commercial that could be used by more than16 one state.17 Virginia as well as Montana and some other18 states took advantage of that. We purchased the19 rights to that commercial. Our state did not have to20 pay the development cost, the production costs.21 It was a very good deal, thanks to22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 111 Maryland relay, for us. You will note at the end --1 we are going to show those commercials right now --2 that these commercials had a space for a tag line that3 any state could use for this generic commercial. So4 if we could show those commercials right now?5 (Whereupon, a videotape was played.)6 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: Accommodation of those7 is now in the legislation. And there is regulatory8 action guiding us to determine the results for the9 FCC's work that we currently have the authority and10 jurisdiction to be able to establish and identify a11 funding mechanism for a national network program. And12 here are some of the examples.13 We have section 255 communication14 amendment, the House of Representatives report on ADA,15 section 4-I of the Communication Act of 1934, specific16 court cases related to interpreting and the FCC17 responsibility or jurisdiction as being expansive on18 that, previous involvement with consumer networks and19 outreach, and education programs.20 For example, we have things such as the do21 not call list. That is one way that the FCC is22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 112 advertising. Another example would be outreach to the1 tribal nations.2 Another one we recently heard of this3 morning is the satellite media tour by Chairman4 Powell. So that's really cool. So why not look at5 that for TRS? Think about it.6 Now, next the FCC has asked us to decide7 if the FCC has the authority over the national network8 campaign. And we would recommend yes, the FCC does9 have the authority based on the other prior examples10 that we have shown you.11 And the funding for the national outreach12 campaign can be done through TRS contributions from13 the various carriers and their customers and various14 other funding mechanisms that exist within the FCC's15 responsibility.16 We have met with NASRA as a committee. 17 And, as Clay mentioned, they are recommending, first18 of all, what you just saw and the TRS funding to be19 used for this as well as for national outreach20 programs.21 Also, we should establish a separate22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 113 advisory board to help the FCC to be able to set up1 national outreach campaigns. We can help to develop2 an RFP to recommend and perhaps hiring a professional3 marketing firm under the FCC as well as a special and4 separate board to be established.5 And the TRS working group offers our6 experience and expertise in the selection of the7 process for the board members to establish that new8 advisory board.9 And our suggestion for the composition of10 that new advisory board on the network marketing we11 feel should be as follows. There should be two deaf;12 two hard of hearing; two hearing; one speech-impaired13 people who have hard of hearing as well as children of14 deaf adults, otherwise known as CODAs. We should have15 a deaf-blind participant. We should have participants16 from the relay industry, two participants; as well as17 two from NASRA; one from an administrative position in18 terms of the interstate funding; and a representative19 also from the local exchange carriers, or LECs.20 So that would be a 16-member group for the21 advisory board. And that should be sufficient to be22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 114 able to provide information, assistance, and advice to1 the FCC to be able to select a marketing company and2 proceed with that goal.3 MR. BOWEN: There is already an interstate4 TRS advisory council that makes recommendations on the5 funding from the TRS interstate fund. Their expertise6 lies in relay and relay products and in funding for7 relay.8 Both NASRA and the workgroup felt that9 there needed to be a separate, as Brenda has just10 described, advisory council with the expertise in11 marketing or marketing to consumers or marketing to12 the general public. That's why we decided not to13 include that in the existing interstate TRS fund14 advisory council.15 So if this is accepted by the CAC as well16 as the FCC, the interstate fund provider would then17 have two advisory councils: one to oversee funding18 issues for TRS, one to oversee outreach.19 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: Okay. And then next20 we would like the FCC to consider TRS as a vital21 service to the deaf and hard of hearing community. 22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 115 Therefore, we believe that we should have1 telecommunications services as priority established2 for relay.3 And TSP was established in 1988. At that4 time, there was no relay. Relay came about about5 1991. So relay was not included in the current TSP6 plan. And we feel that that is very valuable for7 restoration for the relay so that deaf people will be8 able to get telephone service on an equal and fast9 level, basically equal to hearing people.10 The recommendations for the TRS workgroup11 include that there be a call center. The relay center12 will be selected as determined. And the TRS call13 center will be designated as a key telecommunication14 facility in America and will receive top priorities15 for restoration in consideration if there is in the16 event of bad weather or an act of terrorism. That's17 looking at emergency situations.18 We are also discussing that it would be19 extremely beneficial for the individual states and for20 their TRS providers to establish some kind of21 operation plan for TSP, for their facilities with22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 116 their local PSAPs, 911 centers, and LECs.1 We also recommend that the FCC host a2 summit to address the different homeland security3 issues related to people with disabilities. We would4 recommend that the FCC host a two or three-day summit5 to address those concerns, especially considering6 those related to deaf and hard of hearing individuals7 as well as other people who have disabilities.8 So it would actually be two separate9 summits: one that would be an all-day summit focusing10 on the hard of hearing and deaf issues. And the other11 would also be an all-day summit focusing on other12 disability groups.13 The deaf group has communication issues14 that are very unique to that group; whereas, hearing15 people with other disabilities do not have problems16 with communications in the event of an emergency. So17 we feel that it is very important to have a separate18 day for each of those.19 And so then there would be one final day20 where both groups would combine and have21 representatives from each participating to present to22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 117 the full committee for homeland security individuals.1 That day I believe Scott mentioned would2 be like the 25th of March, for one day prior to the3 next full CAC meeting on March 26th.4 We also suggest that different5 representatives from the disability groups participate6 in the panel after they have already had their7 pre-summit meetings to be able to hear the various8 perspectives and concerns and issues from the9 different disability groups.10 We also would like to suggest establishing11 some kind of mechanism for ongoing consultation to the12 homeland security group for new issues, problems,13 concerns that come up in the future.14 We don't want to be a one-time summit15 where we consider concerns have been heard and then16 drop it. We know that more things will be coming up17 in the future.18 Also this morning the TRS working group,19 when we met, there were some new guests that joined20 us. And we discussed the video relay services. After21 that meeting, we believe that there are different22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 118 issues related to video relay service that do not have1 the same type of problems within the TRS, including2 ethical concerns, funding, setting up the calls, the3 role of the video relay operator, -- the TRS operator4 is a different type of role -- the impact on the5 supply and availability of the interpreters.6 Once VRS expands, they are going to be7 using a lot of skilled interpreters. So what is going8 to happen to the consumers in everyday life that need9 interpreters in the workplace, doctor appointments,10 you name it? Will we have enough interpreters for11 that need, one-on-one meetings, and so forth?12 We also need to determine minimum13 certification for video operators and what that is and14 how that will happen as well as numerous other issues15 that can be coming up as we go along because it is a16 very new technology and people love it.17 And that is the end of my presentation. 18 I would like to thank you for letting me go over my19 time a bit.20 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: You actually haven't21 exceeded your time.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 119 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: Oh, I haven't yet? 1 Really?2 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: You have done all3 right.4 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: Can we advance now?5 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: No, you can't talk6 more.7 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: Oh, well.8 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Actually, I think if9 we can discuss it, it's an excellent presentation,10 Brenda. Thank you ever so much, really excellent.11 I guess the first question that I have of12 the group is to decide whether or not we look at these13 recommendations as a whole or whether there are some14 that you feel need to be broken out and voted on up or15 down separately.16 So, keeping that in mind, I have people17 who are here. I saw Eugene's hand first and then18 Susan. And then do we have somebody else? Okay. 19 Eugene, do you have a question or whatever?20 MEMBER SEAGRIFF: Yes. Thank you for the21 presentation, Brenda. It was excellent.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 120 I want a clarification on two issues. One1 is on the advisory council, there was some mention of2 input from marketing people, but I think you really3 want to have some on the team from the get-go so you4 can carefully select your marketing company. That may5 be useful.6 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: I think there was a7 bit of a misunderstanding in that. What we are8 suggesting is that those people who are on that9 advisory committee be subject matter experts on the10 marketing and outreach, in addition to their own11 expertise or experience in terms of the providers and12 the deaf consumers, but also be aware of that and the13 funding issues.14 MEMBER SEAGRIFF: My second area of15 confusion was related to the telecommunication service16 priority. I'm not sure of what the existing hierarchy17 is and then, therefore, where in the existing18 hierarchy you are suggesting TRS be put.19 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: We as the working20 group have suggested that we be put at an equal level21 to the LECs for priority telephone to have restoration22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 121 of phone service.1 If a hearing person has the ability to be2 able to make a phone call after an emergency situation3 has occurred, then we expect that a deaf person should4 be able to have the equivalent telephone access.5 MR. BOWEN: Just one thing that we added6 in discussion on that, Eugene, was that right now7 relay is not even on the radar screen when it comes to8 priority restoration.9 And relay to deaf and hard of hearing is10 dial tone. And as dial tone is reestablished for the11 hearing community, it should also have a priority for12 the deaf community.13 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Susan?14 MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI: Thank you for doing15 a lot of work. It is really clear that the group has16 done a tremendous amount of activity on this issue.17 In terms of the emergency servicing, there18 is one thing that was said that I want to make sure is19 not put into writing in the way that I heard it20 anyway, which was that people with disabilities other21 than hearing disabilities don't have communication22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 122 issues. I think what was meant was have different1 communication issues. So I just want to make sure2 that that is reflected in anything in writing.3 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: I think that is4 exactly right, Susan. Thank you, Susan. Yes, you are5 correct in the way that that was misinterpreted. Yes.6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. We have7 another question. David?8 MEMBER POEHLMAN: Hi. This is David9 Poehlman, American Council of the Blind.10 Short one for a change. The information11 about the summits and the way it is ultimately being12 divided up, one of the things that caught me as I was13 reading through this and listening to what was being14 said is that there would be a summit for the deaf and15 a summit for everybody else.16 The question that came to my mind was that17 there are hearing people who have communications18 problems that are similar to the deaf, as is19 illustrated with the use of the TRS systems.20 So would those people also not be part of21 the issues for the deaf summit that you are going to22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 123 hold?1 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: I'm not really sure I2 clearly understand your point, David. Can you give me3 an example of who you might be referring to?4 MEMBER POEHLMAN: People with speech5 communication problems are going to have difficulty6 communicating in the same ways that people who are7 hearing-impaired are going to have difficulty8 communicating. The TRS centers should be up and9 running as part of priority restoration for them for10 the reasons as they need to be up and running for11 people who are hearing-impaired.12 You already acknowledged this. So I was13 wondering why the statement that people with hearing14 impairments would be for one summit and the other15 summit would be everybody else.16 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: I think perhaps we may17 be mixing two different things here: first of all,18 talking about telephone service priority, or TSP, for19 restoration of the relay so that it would be equal to20 any telephone service restoration for hearing people;21 and then in a separate issue, we would be talking22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 124 about a summit related to the homeland security1 issues, where we feel that communication issues are a2 problem for deaf people, who cannot hear what is being3 announced on the radio or sometimes captions are not4 happening on television or sometimes maybe there is a5 power outage and then deaf people have no way to get6 the information.7 Hearing people who have a speech8 disability can still receive the information and hear9 what is happening on the radio or on the television,10 but deaf people are stuck in the dark, so to speak.11 MEMBER POEHLMAN: Oh, I see. So you're12 saying the telephone communication is not part of the13 discussion for the summit. It's only information14 dissemination that you're talking about.15 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: Well, it can be16 inclusive of all of that, but we're happy to get any17 comments or feedback from any disability group to be18 included. What will happen is on the final day, we19 will have a full summit with the combination of20 participants, hearing, deaf, disabilities in general,21 to discuss all the issues on the table and their22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 125 individual concerns.1 MEMBER POEHLMAN: Okay. Well, thanks for2 clearing that up.3 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Claude, I think we4 will give you the last question. Okay.5 MEMBER STOUT (via interpreter): Yes. 6 This is Claude speaking.7 From that summit, I think that the people8 with hearing disabilities as well as people with other9 disabilities will be able to discuss what more10 recurring issues we have.11 In relation to her experience and comments12 about electricity going off, we can not see captions13 on the news then. And then we can't use our14 computers, and we can't get information from the15 internet.16 And so, of course, if we go to drive in17 our car, we can't listen to the radio in the car. So18 now, as the laws are currently written, TVs have to be19 13 inches or above to include the caption chip. And20 we would like to see the law or the FCC make an effort21 to determine if that is reasonable and if the22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 126 producers of TVs that are smaller, if they can and if1 they have like a battery, have that come with captions2 so that people are armed with more power or if they're3 on the road and can't use the radio, they could turn4 on a battery-powered TV with captions included and see5 what is going on with relation to the given emergency.6 So the goal is that we hope with the FCC7 and industry and government to be able to develop8 increasing capability and to plan and resign to the9 concerns and to handle the emergencies as they occur.10 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: And other thing that11 I would like to add as Sue McNeil, she can answer any12 of your questions about the homeland security issues13 because she is the deputy to Kris Monteith. So also14 --15 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: We're running pretty16 late here, folks.17 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: I would also like to18 thank Tom Chandler for being able to come today and be19 willing to listen to our report. So thank you.20 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Just a couple of21 items before we begin a general discussion, we are22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 127 going to set up a new working group -- we will talk1 about that in a little bit -- to meet the homeland2 security issues that you have suggested. Brenda,3 thank you very much.4 Also, the items in your packet for5 discussion from the TRS working group, there are some6 additions, as you have just heard about the summit7 meeting and a couple of other things. Those things we8 can vote on now, but we will need to get from Brenda9 her slides so that they can be included for the10 commission.11 So now my first question to you is, do you12 feel comfortable with accepting the things that the13 TRS working group has proposed or do you want some14 particular items of discussion? Susan?15 MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI: I would like to put16 it all together, but I would like to discuss a few17 things first.18 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay.19 MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI: I think I would20 feel comfortable with some discussion first.21 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Well, all22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 128 right. Does anyone else also want to discuss items? 1 Let me just get a sense of what time we are going to2 have here. Andrea also. Okay.3 One of the working groups has generously4 given us some extra time. We can cancel the break. 5 So there are your choices. So let's start with6 Susan's comments. Then we'll go to Andrea. Then7 we'll see if there's enough of a consensus that we can8 take a vote.9 MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI: I like the idea of10 having the summit. I am concerned about isolating it11 to people with hearing disabilities, although I12 understand functionally why that is the case.13 I do have concerns that one of the issues14 from consumers that I have worked with around the FCC15 is a sense that maybe there's more concern, certainly16 because of the regulatory issues in the past and some17 of the legal things, that they're only concerned about18 those disabilities. I don't believe that that is the19 case.20 I don't think anybody here at the table21 believes that that is the case. My concern is that22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 129 coming out with this and saying this is first maybe1 lend some credence or encourage people to think along2 those lines. And I was wondering if the group would3 consider a general disability one.4 Obviously it's going to be heavily5 weighted toward hearing disabilities because of the6 issues that Claude mentioned, but I think if it is7 open and the agenda is open, that may help a little8 bit in terms of outreach to other communities as well,9 even if it is two days broken up into some other10 means. So I was wondering if that was a possibility.11 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: If I can answer that,12 I think what Brenda has proposed -- and correct me,13 Brenda, if I am wrong here -- is that we have two14 days, one day with the deaf community and the other15 day with the homeland security issues for members of16 groups with other disabilities. So that we're looking17 at then coming together on the third day.18 MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI: Yes, I do19 understand that. I am just saying that if that is the20 case, then I am concerned with the PR issue, really.21 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Oh, you mean the PR22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 130 issue for TRS?1 MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI: No. For the FCC.2 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Oh, I see. Okay.3 MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI: If you do one4 first, it looks like it's more important. And that's5 the only thing. If it's mixed in some way -- and I6 understand the issue with transportation and other7 things.8 I am just wondering if the group is9 willing to write it up some other way just to make it10 seem as though it's more across this vote,11 all-inclusive, although certainly I understand that12 some of the issues are certainly more heavily in terms13 of the deaf and hard of hearing.14 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. We have got a15 lot of hands up on this issue. I think I saw Patty16 first. Then, David, I will come to you.17 MS. BANNIER: This is Patty Bannier.18 I just think I want to clarify. I can see19 your concern about having one meeting one day and a20 second meeting on a different day. It certainly could21 be that both groups meet at the same time.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 131 The importance was that all of the various1 disability groups had an opportunity to really hash2 out what their specific concerns were so that they3 weren't overlooked.4 So if there was one day where the5 deaf/hard of hearing group got together specifically6 to address those issues, at the same time other7 disability groups could get together and discuss their8 concerns, then they could meet together and be more9 solid on the specifics of what is involved before they10 would go to meet with any technology provider or start11 to determine what needs to happen to resolve it and12 what is the best way to do it.13 Would you agree with that, Brenda?14 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Susan, does that15 address some of your concerns?16 MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI: I think if you're17 talking about also having dates available when you're18 talking about it or there are other things because I19 think the response could very easily be, yes, we will20 have that meeting, maybe they will have something21 later. I think we just have to be really sensitive to22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 132 some of the concerns in other groups.1 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: If I understand it2 correctly, what Patty is saying is to have them both3 on the same day.4 MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI: That would address5 my concerns, but also I think --6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Yes. That's what she7 was saying. She was saying to have the two groups8 meeting on the same day and then coming together on a9 second day, which really makes sense, coming together10 on the second day to address issues of common concern11 and your unique concerns. Does that address your12 issues?13 MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI: Yes.14 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: All right. Now let15 me see. I've got some other hands here. David?16 MEMBER POEHLMAN: This is David Poehlman,17 American Council of the Blind, again.18 That once again whittled me down to19 something short. I propose for the sake of marketing20 that we call this something like consumer21 telecommunications homeland security summit or event22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 133 or whatever you want to call it. And then we can1 bring everything in and set it up the way we need to.2 I think, for example, one day with two3 tracks and another day with everybody coming together4 may be a good idea. We may just find we need three5 tracks.6 The only reason that I mention this is7 because if we open it up in such a fashion as we have,8 advocacy organizations, consumers themselves, various9 groups that deal with various issues that are10 concerned with the kinds of things that are going to11 be dealt with concerning homeland security, that we12 can get a lot of good momentum.13 I just want to say that this discussion14 again and this report have pointed out once again my15 request and my continued cry for captioned radio.16 Thank you very much.17 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. And, Claude,18 you had a comment.19 MEMBER STOUT: Yes. Let's call March 25th20 the summit. And any meeting prior to that, let's not21 call it a summit. It will just be a meeting of the22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 134 working group because you may have the one group1 involved with people with hearing disabilities and2 another group involving individuals with other3 disabilities.4 And that way when we all meet together, we5 can see where it is we have common concerns and issues6 and where they might be different. So that way we can7 put it all together.8 And then when CAC has their meeting on the9 26th, we can address all the issues as needed so that10 they are all issues for people with disabilities, not11 making such a distinct separation. That way we can12 avoid the mentality of one size fits all because that13 is not what we are functioning on.14 We need to address as much as possible15 issue by issue because of the various disability16 groups' concerns. So we want to start with that and17 then go from there.18 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you, Claude. 19 I think you put that extremely well. That's a very20 well-thought-out approach. I think that that is very21 true. It would not be called a summit.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 135 Can we put those issues aside in terms of1 what we call it and the structure and then vote on the2 content of what was presented here today as to whether3 or not we want to make these recommendations to the4 FCC? Is this okay to move ahead? Is everybody5 comfortable? All right. Then can we put it to a6 vote?7 Do we want to accept the recommendations8 proposed by the TRS working group? May I see a show9 of hands for?10 (Whereupon, there was a show of hands.)11 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Well, I don't have to12 count. I think that's unanimous.13 Thank you, Brenda, very, very much.14 (Applause.)15 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: We do need, Brenda,16 copies of your slides so that we can have all of the17 recommendations in writing. Okay?18 And now we are going to the broadband19 working group. Larry Goldberg has been doing a20 wonderful job. Larry, the floor is yours.21 MEMBER GOLDBERG: Thanks. If you don't22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 136 mind, I will just sit over here and do the report from1 here.2 BROADBAND WORKING GROUP3 MEMBER GOLDBERG: It's a fairly simple4 report. It's a very big and meaty issue: broadband. 5 It's broad, and it's slippery. You have an excellent6 group that really is giving each other very good,7 respectable hearings to each other's issues.8 We have been fishing around a little bit9 for what our particular role and recommendations could10 be. If you remember, we started with a panel here --11 I guess it was at our last meeting -- which aired a12 lot of really good viewpoints on particularly the13 issues of level playing field and regulation in the14 field of broadband.15 Our ongoing discussions on the phone and16 in person had us batting back and forth what exactly17 we could do to add to the record on broadband, which18 has been discussed quite a bit in public, quite a bit19 at the FCC.20 The various issues that we have brought up21 and some draft recommendations came down eventually to22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 137 what you have in your package today, but we have even1 more yet coming.2 What is interesting is that because issues3 of regulation and marketplace versus regulation are4 sometimes contentious, we wanted to try to come up5 with something that was very consensus-oriented6 without backing away from making a statement on the7 issue because we're all very strong proponents of8 making sure that broadband is available to anyone who9 wants it and accessible to anyone who wants it.10 So with that said, after a number of11 drafts, we looked at what we could say that would add12 to the record. Should we suggest more study? Should13 we suggest that maybe consumer information could be14 better written and the consumers could be better15 educated?16 And then, all of a sudden, the voice over17 IP issue raised itself up as one of the hottest18 immediate issues in the world of broadband and one19 that hasn't yet generated such a large public record20 where maybe we could add something to it.21 At virtually the same moment, the FCC22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 138 announced that they were going to have a notice of1 proposed rulemaking, that they were going to have a2 voice over IP summit. And we felt like we should at3 least point up some of the issues we wanted to make4 sure the FCC was going to address in this summit and5 in the NPRM.6 At that point, the chairman issued his7 announcement about the summit and all of our issues or8 most of our issues that we wanted to make sure were9 taken up or named.10 One thing that was not specifically named11 in the release was access for people with12 disabilities, which certainly raised a concern. And13 so we added that to our recommendation.14 I have just learned that it's confirmed15 that at the December 1st summit, there will be a16 representative to talk about disability issues and17 access to voice over IP. So we feel pretty confident18 that before we have even released this publicly or19 voted on it, most of what we would like to recommend20 has already been accepted.21 I think it would still be a fairly strong22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 139 voice to have the entire CAC recognize that. I'm not1 sure whether I need to read this full recommendation2 through. It was all sent to you in advance. And you3 have got it in various formats.4 It's mostly raising the issue that within5 the broadband world, voice over IP is a new service6 that is being offered over the changing world of7 broadband. Though it's new, it has a potential to8 become a widely used service, offers all kinds of9 benefits but raises questions about the impact it will10 have on consumer issues.11 As new services like voice over IP blur12 the legal distinctions between communications13 services, it is important to identify consumer14 protections.15 We then recognized Chairman Powell's16 stated agenda for the upcoming forum and subsequent17 NPRM, "to explore the best means to achieve important18 health, safety, and welfare policy objectives, such as19 E911, universal service, and homeland security." We20 urge the commission to also pay close attention to the21 additional issue of access for people with22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 140 disabilities.1 An interesting addition to that is that we2 stressed that these consumer protections can and3 should be addressed, regardless of the ultimate4 regulatory treatment of voice over IP, which means5 either through voluntary means, marketplace issues, or6 regulation, we feel strongly these issues must be7 recognized.8 I have a further report from today's9 meeting, but if we would like to take up this10 particular recommendation first, we could do that.11 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Larry, I want to make12 certain that we know exactly what we are talking about13 here. So what you are really suggesting that we vote14 on is identifying the consumer concerns in terms of15 the changing communications market, that we recognize16 the chairman's statement and objectives and support17 and strongly encourage that they be followed, and also18 to pay close attention to the issues for the19 disability community.20 MEMBER GOLDBERG: Right.21 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Now, if there22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 141 anything else that I have missed?1 MEMBER GOLDBERG: Just the final statement2 that we are making it additional that consumer3 protection should be addressed, regardless of --4 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Oh, yes. Okay.5 MEMBER GOLDBERG: -- how voice over IP is6 treated, particularly on the issue of is it an7 information service, is it a telecommunications8 service. Regardless of whether that's determined, it9 still should be addressed.10 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. All right. 11 Yes, you're right. All of this is in the information12 that we distributed. All right. We can open the13 floor for discussion. Yes, Brenda?14 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: Hi. This is Brenda15 Kelly-Frey representing NASRA.16 Larry, as you just said in your report,17 the OIP is growing and is projected as becoming a18 major future telephony service. You may or may not be19 aware that TRS and 911 services have surcharges20 attached to the telephone bills to pay for TRS as well21 as for 911 and E911.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 142 I want the group to also consider the1 ramifications of that TRS funding that happens to be2 based on land line phones as well.3 MEMBER GOLDBERG: We absolutely recognized4 all of that within our group and realized that our5 group wasn't able to recommend that it be explicitly6 not included, but it absolutely has to be part of the7 record in the upcoming forum and in the ongoing NPRM.8 So we all recognize those are two of the9 big issues. And that's why we made sure that it was10 added to the agenda but couldn't conclude where it11 should go, either way.12 MEMBER KELLY-FREY: Right.13 MEMBER GOLDBERG: We don't feel it's14 appropriate. Does that state the sense of the group15 well enough?16 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. And we had17 Donald. I think you put your hand up.18 MEMBER SNOOP: Larry put it very19 succinctly.20 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. What is the21 other discussion that we have?22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 143 (No response.)1 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Oh, my goodness. You2 are going to get us back on track? I can't believe3 it. Somebody wants to take a break. Okay.4 Then shall we have a show of hands as to5 whether we accept the proposal from the broadband6 working group and present it to the FCC?7 (Whereupon, there was a show of hands.)8 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: You all are9 unbelievable. That's great work. Thank you, Larry10 and your groups. We really appreciate it.11 (Applause.)12 MEMBER GOLDBERG: And you'll be hearing13 from us further shortly about our next issues and our14 next recommendations.15 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Well, I like16 that, too. Thank you very, very much.17 We have done a lot of work in this last18 hour or so. We have a 15-minute break. Did you hear19 that, folks, 15-minute break?20 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter went off21 the record at 2:26 p.m. and went back on22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 144 the record at 2:45 p.m.)1 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I think it's2 appropriate right now to talk about setting up a new3 working group. That would be the working group that4 would address the disability issues that we discussed5 other than the deaf issues relative to homeland6 security. Is that right? Am I correct?7 Is anybody interested in setting up a8 group like this and working on it and then giving9 input to the committee? Larry?10 MEMBER GOLDBERG: I just have a question. 11 The FCC does have a network security and homeland12 security advisory committee already. Some disability13 advocates are on that committee. So I'm just14 wondering how that meets up with what this group would15 do.16 I know AFB is represented and others on17 captioning issues and things like that.18 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I can't answer that. 19 Can you answer it, Scott?20 MR. MARSHALL: No, but we will investigate21 it. No, I can't answer that, Larry, at the moment. 22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 145 I know that there are some disability organizations1 involved with the homeland security policy council,2 which is another federal advisory committee here. But3 I am sure that as this thing develops, we will be able4 to coordinate because there has been some information5 shared to date.6 Is Sue McNeil here? She might be able to7 address it. I can't.8 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I don't see her.9 MR. MARSHALL: I am sure we will take that10 all into account, Larry.11 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Nevertheless, that12 still brings me back to my original question, who13 would be interested in serving on a separate working14 group that would address other homeland security15 issues, other than the deaf issues? I see Mike. We16 see Rebecca.17 MR. MARSHALL: Mike as in Duke.18 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Mike as in Duke.19 MR. MARSHALL: Okay.20 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Rebecca. Mike21 DelCasino. Anyone else? Mark Pranger. Susan, not22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 146 Susan Grant, Susan Mazrui. Who else has got a hand up1 over there?2 Claude, do you have a question or you want3 to serve on something? Did you have a question? Oh,4 I'm sorry. Okay. You have to be careful when you5 stick your hand in the air. I call on you.6 Anyone else?7 (No response.)8 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. So we've got9 the beginnings of a working group here. Thank you all10 very much. We'll get you set up into an e-mail list. 11 And maybe somebody will volunteer to be the chair of12 it.13 MR. MARSHALL: And David was which David?14 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Which David? David15 who? Was there a David who volunteered?16 MR. MARSHALL: I wrote "David" down. No?17 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: No. Mark Pranger.18 MR. MARSHALL: Okay. Review: Mike;19 Larry; Rebecca; Mike Duke, that is; Mike DelCasino;20 Mark; and Susan. Is that correct?21 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Yes. Mike Duke and22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 147 DelCasino.1 MR. MARSHALL: Okay. Got it.2 MEMBER GOLDBERG: Scott, this is Larry. 3 I don't think I volunteered. I was just asking a4 question before.5 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Yes.6 MR. MARSHALL: Oh, you didn't volunteer?7 MEMBER GOLDBERG: No, no. Thank you8 anyway.9 MR. MARSHALL: You see, that's the10 problem. All right. Got you off, got you off.11 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Now, who have we got?12 Show the hands again.13 (Whereupon, there was a show of hands.)14 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: We've got Mike Duke,15 Mike DelCasino, Mark Pranger, Rebecca, and Susan. 16 Okay. Good. That's great. Thank you all very much.17 MR. MARSHALL: Yes.18 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Then let's move on to19 our next working group, the consumer outreach,20 education and complaints working group, which is21 chaired by Joy Ragsdale. Again, Joy, thank you all so22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 148 much for your work. And you're going to start this1 off.2 CONSUMER COMPLAINTS, OUTREACH, EDUCATION AND3 PARTICIPATION WORKING GROUP4 MEMBER RAGSDALE: Today we're going to5 give a presentation of the consumer outreach,6 complaint, education and participation working group.7 Because of the size of the group and the8 number of issues involved, we after the April meeting9 divided into three small groups. Consumer complaints10 is chaired by Mike DelCasino. Consumer outreach11 issues are chaired by Debra Berlyn. And modernizing12 the FCC and addressing electronic access issues is13 chaired by Susan Mazrui.14 We are going to have a brief progress15 report given by Debra and Susan. However, our16 recommendations that will be presented to date for17 voting will be given by Mike DelCasino on behalf of18 the consumer complaints group.19 We have met with several FCC staff members20 over the course of six months. Louis Sigalos and his21 staff have met with many of our members and gave us a22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 149 full presentation, which Debra will speak in detail1 about in a few moments.2 We have also met with various groups of3 the Electronics Express and section 508 compliance4 unit, also the webmaster, which Susan Mazrui will give5 you further details about that in her report.6 However, in some of our discussions, we7 also determined that we did not have the expertise in8 our group on the whole to address Indian and tribal9 issues. So we presented to Vernon James whether he10 would be interested in heading up another subworking11 group. He is not here today. And we have not heard12 from him to confirm that. But that is something under13 discussion.14 So at this moment, I would like to turn15 over the mike to Debra, who will give a report on our16 further activities for this year.17 MEMBER BERLYN: Thanks, Joy. Let me just18 start out by thanking you, Joy, for the outstanding19 work you do in managing a group that has such a broad20 set of issues to deal with. Our subworking group --21 I guess that's what we call ourselves -- addresses22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 150 consumer outreach and education. And after our first1 meeting, we recognize the need to find out what the2 FCC was already doing in terms of outreach and3 education.4 So, as Joy mentioned, we had a meeting in5 early August with the Division of Consumer Outreach6 that is headed by Louis Sigalos. He brought some of7 his staff together with us. Joy has I believe8 distributed a full report on our meeting with all the9 discussion points.10 One thing that our subgroup has recognized11 is that the FCC has come excellent information. In12 fact, if you go out to the lobby area, you will notice13 that there are some wonderful fact sheets there with14 all sorts of information for consumers about wireless15 phone service, slamming, et cetera.16 The question I think that our group needs17 to address is how can we get that good information18 into the hands of all consumers, particularly19 consumers who are in areas where they may not have20 easily accessible internet Web site service, where21 they can download this information.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 151 So there are several issues: one, how do1 we let consumers know this information is out there;2 and then how do we make sure that we get this3 information in the hands of all consumers.4 In our discussion, one of the issues that5 was brought up by the Consumer Outreach Division of6 the FCC was a limitation in funding resources for them7 to accomplish all of the tasks that we would ideally8 like them to and they themselves want to. So that is9 always in the back of our minds, what can we do with10 limited resources that the FCC has.11 As you will see, we talked about some12 efforts they have made to get on the road, again13 limited by funding resources, but they have gone to14 schools in the areas. They have gone to do a15 roundtable at the Public Utility Commission in16 Pennsylvania. They worked with seniors at a17 discussion in, I believe it was, Las Vegas, Nevada.18 So they have themselves tried to do some19 outreach. And we support them and want to work with20 them in figuring out ways in which they can do more of21 that.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 152 Our group today discussed kind of the1 second step to that, which is what are the best means2 for getting information out there. We discussed ways3 in which we can perhaps work with the FCC to build a4 database that they are working on of all the contacts5 that they have, where they could immediately send6 information over the internet to a set of contacts. 7 And then those contacts would then distribute the8 information for them.9 And some of those groups we want them to10 include are libraries and community centers as well as11 perhaps other organizations. We will be working with12 them in the future to help them build that database.13 The other thing we want to try and do is14 to get together with the Office of Media Relations and15 the Outreach Division and talk about ways in which16 this information could be placed in community17 newspapers. Perhaps we discuss a monthly column or a18 bimonthly column that would address some key outreach19 issues for consumers, education issues for consumers.20 So, with that in mind, what we are going21 to work toward for perhaps our March meeting is a22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 153 plan, working closely with the Outreach Division and1 the Office of Media Relations to work on a plan, for2 doing some of these consumer outreach activities.3 Thank you.4 MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI: First of all, I5 would like to say that I am one of the co-chairs of6 the modernizing the FCC working group. Claude Stout7 and David Poehlman are also working on this as8 co-chairs. I invite them to interrupt and correct me9 at any time.10 What we tried to do is look at some of the11 efforts the agency has done to go along with the12 modernizing efforts that have been taking place over13 a lot of different federal agencies. In particular,14 we looked at Web access and information, how is that15 being shared with those outside the Beltway, and16 efforts along the lines of training.17 We recently had a meeting with the18 webmaster, the manager for EDOCS, and the manager for19 the electronic filing system. That was very20 productive.21 Prior to the meeting, we had an22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 154 opportunity with a lot of input from members of the1 working group. Larry Goldberg, for example, and David2 Poehlman, and Claude Stout were some of the ones who3 did a quick overview of the accessibility of the Web4 site. And there were areas of concern.5 There were areas that were done very well,6 and that's one of the things we said things are great7 and commendable, efforts that have been done to8 clearly follow 508 guidelines. And there are areas,9 let's say, that have opportunities for growth.10 So the inconsistency was one of the things11 that was of concern. We found that our initial12 thoughts about improving the access on the Web site,13 both usability and accessibility, were really14 consistent with what the Department of Justice was15 making recommendations on across the board for all16 agencies.17 So what we are in the process right now of18 doing is we have drafted some initial recommendations19 from the working group. We have just gotten comments20 back. We should have that circulated out to the21 larger subcommittee and then the full committee before22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 155 the next meeting and would like to be on the agenda1 for the next meeting to talk about those2 recommendations.3 You will all have an opportunity to4 comment, make improvements, and provide feedback on5 this effort prior to the meeting as well as during the6 next meeting if we are put on the agenda as requested.7 Does anybody have questions?8 (No response.)9 MEMBER PALMER-MAZRUI: Okay.10 MEMBER RAGSDALE: Mike?11 MEMBER DelCASINO: Good afternoon. I am12 Mike DelCasino. I am happy to be able to present the13 recommendation from the complaints subworking group of14 our working group.15 I want to do a couple of things before I16 actually launch into that. First is I want to thank17 the group members for their literally tireless18 efforts.19 What you have in front of you is a20 one-page recommendation, but I assure you that we had21 four or five meetings, -- I can't remember exactly how22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 156 many -- each of which were two and a half or so hours1 in length.2 So we had a tremendous amount of3 discussions and sharing of thoughts and ideas. I want4 to thank and commend our working group members for5 that.6 The second thing I would like to do is I7 would like to thank two folks from the commission's8 CGB staff, Martha Contee and Cynthia Brown, who also9 participated in most of the meetings that this working10 group had.11 I think of particular note in that regard,12 the recommendation that we have, as we will talk about13 in a minute, has got a fairly narrow focus, but our14 discussions over all those meetings were very broad15 and covered lots of areas of the complaint process.16 Interestingly, as a result of some of that17 conversation, Martha and Cynthia actually took some18 things back and have already made some minor19 modifications and changes to the complaint process and20 to the commission's Web site. So that kind of21 demonstrates that just discussing these things tends22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 157 to lead to some improvements.1 The third thing I guess I would like to2 say is that while this particular recommendation has3 a few new thoughts and suggestions, I think it is4 largely an expansion of a lot of the very good work5 that the commission has already begun to do, a lot of6 which you heard about today, some of which Dane7 mentioned this afternoon that we weren't even aware8 of. So the point here is really that we think we have9 a couple of suggestions that will enhance a lot of the10 work that the commission is already currently doing.11 The last point I think I want to make --12 and then we can talk about the recommendation itself13 -- is to say that this particular group's work I think14 is very far from done. We surfaced a lot of things in15 our discussions.16 As a result of that discussion, we seemed17 to focus around outreach and settled on bringing18 before you today this particular recommendation. But19 I think you will see as we move forward that this20 complaint working group will be back to you with some21 additional recommendations regarding complaints.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 158 You have all seen the recommendation. 1 It's not quite a page long. I don't know as there is2 much point in reading through it. Let me just comment3 that it is outreach-focused.4 Our recommendation here to the commission5 is to expand and elaborate on some of the activities6 that they already have in place. We request that they7 use the resources that are available to them that they8 are currently funding through the universal service9 fund to enhance their outreach efforts regarding a10 consumer complaint and also to think about or test the11 possibility of using some of the newer technologies to12 do that. And they are kind of outlined here.13 So utilize libraries, utilize14 universities, utilize the school systems, utilize15 conference calls. They do town meetings, for example.16 If it's possible to arrange to have that town meeting17 webcast, you could expand the scope of the population18 that gets to hear that message; similarly, with19 something as simple as arranging for a conference call20 at a meeting where some subgroup of people can dial21 into the meeting and hear the message. Our group22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 159 thinks that that would enable the outreach to get to1 a larger portion of the population.2 I guess let me leave it at that and ask if3 anybody has any particular questions or ask the other4 working group members if I left anything out and they5 want to add to it, please do that.6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Do we have any7 comments or questions for Mike?8 (No response.)9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: You just covered it10 all, Mike. They're just stunned. I can't believe11 this group doesn't have a question. Oh, we did with12 David.13 Thank you, David, for saving us.14 MEMBER DelCASINO: Are you sure you want15 to thank him?16 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Well, we'll wait.17 MEMBER POEHLMAN: Hello. This is David18 Poehlman with the American Council of the Blind.19 Since nobody else volunteered to come20 forward, I thought I would see if I could cobble21 something together to say or to ask.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 160 I have actually been looking at this1 recommendation and looked at it several times in2 e-mail and in Braille here. I am trying to find out3 if we have left anything out in the way of4 communications. I am not sure that we have, but I am5 wondering if we take a look at the suggested modes of6 delivery, if there isn't something that we might want7 to add.8 I think at one point during our group's9 discussions, I had suggested adding something like10 "and others" or something like that to this list. 11 It's a great list, but I don't know if we left12 anything out. So I just thought I would mention that.13 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: So you would just say14 that we would be leaving this open for other avenues15 of consumer outreach?16 MEMBER POEHLMAN: Yes. I would say "and17 others" or something like that.18 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Do we have any19 other comments or discussions? Okay, Larry.20 MEMBER GOLDBERG: I'm interested in the21 use of all of these educational institutions as22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 161 vehicles for outreach and complaints, particularly1 public schools.2 I know in public broadcasting, we make a3 huge effort to create materials for use in schools. 4 And I don't know if the FCC actually has, like many5 sites, the kids' site or the kids' zone for FCC6 issues.7 It might sound dry, but, in fact, the8 technologies are fascinating to kids and whether the9 creation of materials and, therefore, matching class10 projects to have the class together file complaints or11 communicate with the FCC.12 It's sort of touched on in the first13 bullet point. I don't know if the FCC has done that14 yet or not.15 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: They do. Scott is16 telling me that they do. Scott, do you want to talk17 to him about it?18 MR. MARSHALL: Hi, Larry. Scott Marshall.19 We do have a parents' page that is up and20 running at the moment. I believe that we also have a21 kids' page that is under development.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 162 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Do we have any1 other questions or comments?2 (No response.)3 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Then we'll4 vote it. We'll take a vote on whether or not to5 recommend to the commission the suggestions, the6 recommendations made by the subgroup of the sub of the7 group. Long titled group here. The consumer group. 8 Let's just make it a short title.9 Anyway, may I see a show of hands of10 people who would like to make this recommendation to11 the commission?12 (Whereupon, there was a show of hands.)13 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Well, once again, you14 all are breaking records today. That was a unanimous15 vote. Thank you very much. So we shall make that16 recommendation to the commission, as you suggested. 17 Thank you all very much. Joy, group, thank you. We18 really appreciate that.19 Then moving right along here, we will go20 to Eugene Seagriff with the ancillary services working21 group.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 163 MEMBER SEAGRIFF: Thank you, Shirley, and1 thank you all for allowing us some time on the agenda2 today.3 ANCILLARY SERVICES WORKING GROUP4 MEMBER SEAGRIFF: Our working group5 consists of Karen Kirsch, Diane Burstein, Vernon6 James, Byron St. Clair, Dave Poehlman, Mike Duke,7 Larry Goldberg, and myself.8 We were studying if there were any issues9 related to the ancillary services in the current10 proceedings that the FCC is considering. We held a11 number of conference calls and plenty of e-mail12 traffic to discuss these issues.13 With Scott's help, we were able to have14 briefings by FCC experts in several areas to inform15 our discussions. For example, Steve Broeckaert16 briefed us on plug and play. Rick Chessen briefed us17 on DTV. And Ed DeLaHunt briefed us on digital radios.18 So those were the three areas that we were looking at.19 We determined that there were not any20 issues related to ancillary services in these areas21 that CAC could address in the form of recommendations22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 164 to the commission. That was our opinion.1 However, we felt there is a much wider2 group here available to us, and we didn't want to take3 these things off the table entirely without at least4 flagging them for you and letting you know what a5 couple of the things that we found were.6 First is related to DTV. In DTV, as in7 analog TV, there are cable must-carry requirements for8 program-related material. There are a few things that9 are specifically called out as examples of10 program-related material, but one of them that is not11 included is material currently contained in the analog12 SAP that may be considered program-related.13 So the only debate we were having is,14 well, gee, should that stuff have been specifically15 called out as part of the program-related material or16 not?17 We didn't feel strongly that this should18 be a recommendation, but we wanted to get some19 feedback from the wider group before we shelved it.20 Does anyone have any comments or ideas on21 that issue?22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 165 MEMBER SNOOP: This is Don Snoop. Are you1 talking specifically on the SAP issue between analog2 and digital?3 MEMBER SEAGRIFF: Yes. As Diane can4 explain much more eloquently than I can, there's not5 really going to be SAP per se on DTV, but the material6 that is currently in the analog SAP if it's considered7 program-related, should that be specifically called8 out in the must-carry portion of DTV?9 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: You're losing me with10 all of these initials. I am assuming DTV is digital11 television. What is SAP? Don't tell me it's me.12 MEMBER SNOOP: Secondary program so that13 you can actually --14 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: What is it?15 MEMBER SNOOP: Secondary audial program so16 that you can actually push a button on your TV set and17 you can get a second audio. Sometimes it will be in18 Spanish. Sometimes it will be --19 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Thank you very20 much.21 MEMBER SEAGRIFF: Sometimes it's used for22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 166 a description for the blind as well.1 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: David?2 MEMBER POEHLMAN: Yes. David Poehlman3 with the American Council of the Blind.4 The reason why we are sort of putting this5 out on the table, this particular one, is because we6 understand that there is some discussion already7 underway concerning this and we didn't know if we8 should put it forward as a recommendation.9 We would like to hear from you all about10 this and some of the other things that we had.11 MEMBER SEAGRIFF: Okay. I'll take that as12 it's not a big deal to anybody. We didn't think so,13 but we wanted to make sure. It was really a semantic14 thing about whether we should call this particular15 item out in the must-carry or not.16 Program-related materials are called out17 in must-carry. And we kind of thought that was18 sufficient, but we wanted to get a wider input before19 we shelved it.20 A second issue is related to plug and21 play. Plug and play is about enabling cable-ready22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 167 digital television sets essentially. Part of the plug1 and play report and order mention that there would,2 could, and should be consumer disclosures about what3 people should expect to happen and how it is supposed4 to work.5 Right now those are just pretty much vague6 and have to be hashed out. We didn't feel like the7 CAC should get involved in hashing that out or spell8 out what we felt should be in there, but we wanted to9 get an opinion from the wider group on that issue as10 well.11 Should we take a more active role in12 suggesting how the disclosure issue should play out?13 MEMBER SNOOP: I have an opinion. Plug14 and play, right now there's a number of things. It's15 like a two-edged sword.16 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Donald Snoop.17 MEMBER SNOOP: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes.18 In other words, right now the cable19 industry, the CEA, the consumer communications20 electronics, have come to an agreement to have all of21 these cable-ready TV sets, have it so the customer can22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 168 just plug in a cable and have it work for the most1 part if you're a cable TV customer. It does exclude2 direct TV. It does exclude other technologies. And3 that has already been bantered about a number of times4 by the FCC.5 Is it negative? No. From a consumer6 perspective, should we be addressing it? We probably7 should keep it on our radar screen only because of the8 fact that there are a number of consumers a couple of9 years down the road when this becomes a reality.10 You may walk in and buy a TV set, be it11 DirecTV or Dish subscriber network or another12 technology, thinking that it is going to work and find13 out it actually doesn't. So it may be something you14 might want to keep on the radar screen.15 MEMBER SEAGRIFF: We're not saying that in16 the future, as circumstances change, we wouldn't17 revisit an issue or take further action.18 MEMBER SNOOP: Right.19 MEMBER SEAGRIFF: What we said is at this20 time, we didn't feel there were any concrete21 recommendations we could make.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 169 MEMBER SNOOP: Okay.1 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Shirley Rooker.2 Is it possible that this technology at3 some point will if you have Dish or DirecTV be4 available?I don't know that much about the technology.5 MEMBER SNOOP: It's hard to say at this6 point because the press releases, almost on a weekly7 basis, press releases are going back and forth as to8 what is happening, what the objections are, and things9 of that nature. So it's playing itself out.10 I'm sure at some point there will be11 because it's a numbers game. There are millions of12 people with DirecTV and Dish Network along with cable13 customers. So at some point I think they are going to14 have to. I don't think it's something that we have to15 engineer, but I think from a consumer standpoint, I16 think we need to keep it on the radar screen.17 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: It seems to me like18 what you are saying is there is a consumer education19 aspect attached to this --20 MEMBER SEAGRIFF: Oh, absolutely.21 MEMBER SNOOP: -- educating the consumers22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 170 that the TV that they think they are going to go plug1 in and play may not.2 MEMBER SNOOP: Right.3 MEMBER SEAGRIFF: The plug and play order4 from the FCC includes a provision that disclosures5 must be made so that customers are not mislead or6 misunderstood. Our discussion was, should we insert7 our committee into that proceeding or not?8 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I see.9 MEMBER SEAGRIFF: And our feeling at the10 time was not.11 Last but not least, -- and I know I am the12 only thing between us and the end of the day -- is13 digital radio. It seems that digital radio is still14 in its formative stages. It's not fully codified and15 defined.16 It seems that multiple data streams will17 be possible, but it's not clear that there are any18 plans to include things like radio reading services or19 other services in those data streams.20 We weren't sure even if the FCC had a21 mechanism for encouraging such usage of the bandwidth22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 171 or not and whether it was going to really go one way1 or the other in the future. Anyway, the crystal ball2 wasn't working so well.3 We felt that we would table it, but we4 wanted to also bring that to your attention beforehand5 as well.6 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Do we have any7 comments or questions? Claude?8 MEMBER STOUT: Yes. I just wanted to drop9 a thought off to your group. I wanted to bring up the10 digital radio, to keep that in mind. If there is any11 possibility that we could enjoy captioned radio while12 we are driving in the car or while we are using a13 global positioning system, we could see the caption,14 just keep that in mind. We would like to see that15 happen.16 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay.17 MEMBER SEAGRIFF: We'll keep that in mind.18 I'm not sure if that's an area the FCC can really deal19 with either.20 MEMBER STOUT: I think people in Japan are21 using captioned radio technology if I understand22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 172 correctly, but maybe that's something that could be1 investigated and looked into.2 MEMBER GOLDBERG: I think that Eugene's3 point is we might not be able to encourage that4 someone start such a service, but we will want to keep5 our eye on the technology so it can be supported. 6 There is nothing about the technology that would7 prevent anyone from providing captioned audio of any8 sort. And that's where we will keep our eye on it9 because I don't know that any of us are yet fully10 informed about the capabilities and limitations of11 digital radio.12 MEMBER SEAGRIFF: Right. And that is13 still forming. But since there should or could be14 multiple data streams in a digital world, anything can15 be put in that data stream theoretically.16 So, Claude, to your point, there are17 really two sides to that problem. One is the ability18 of the radios themselves to play and decode the19 captions, if you will, which I imagine is probably20 possible because all the satellites, radio systems21 show you the artist and title and that kind of thing.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 173 However, the other side of the coin is1 getting the content captioned. That's a content2 creation issue, which is a very difficult challenge to3 solve.4 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: David?5 MEMBER POEHLMAN: I just wanted to add to6 Eugene's excellent report -- David Poehlman again with7 the American Council of the Blind -- that during our8 call on digital radio, some of these issues were9 raised.10 The thing that we are talking about here11 basically, though, is that FCC right now is basically12 concerned with helping to get digital radio up and13 running. They did that by licensing a company I14 understand to provide the licensing and carrier15 services and that sort of thing. It's one company16 that is doing it for all the facilities out there. 17 And now they're involved.18 They have been involved in the testing and19 the rollout and that sort of thing of that kind of20 thing. And then they're also involved with making21 sure that transmitters and so forth are in compliance22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 174 with FCC regulations.1 There is a lot of interesting stuff,2 actually, in digital radio. For example, one thing3 that you will want to know when you go out to buy your4 digital radio set in a few years, don't be afraid to5 go out and buy one because let's say that there are 106 or 15 stations in your market and only 2 of them are7 digital.That's okay.You're not going to lose the other8 11 or 12 or whatever because you will still be able to9 pick up the analog signal from your digital set.10 So I would encourage you in a few years11 when you start seeing them show up in the stores and12 they are cheap enough to buy, go out and grab one. 13 It's going to be very exciting.14 With regarding to captioned radio,15 something I have been pushing for for a while, I asked16 about this and some other things we asked about, the17 radio sets themselves, you know, what they're going to18 look like, what their interfaces are going to be. And19 it's really too early for some of this information to20 be available.21 That was also the sense that I got about22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 175 captioned radio, not impossible. Somewhere down the1 line, it may happen, but it's just too early to tell.2 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Thank you, David. I3 really did not know that you could pick up analog on4 a digital radio. That's good information.5 MEMBER POEHLMAN: There aren't many of6 them out there yet, but when there are.7 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: When there are.8 MEMBER SEAGRIFF: That's the conclusion of9 my report. I would like to thank all the working10 group members for their help and support and11 participation. I feel my role is just to keep all of12 these bright and active people engaged and to take a13 lot of notes. So thank you all for your work.14 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Keep them working. 15 Thank you very much, Eugene. I really appreciate it.16 I think we have looked at our working17 groups. We have come up with some very excellent18 things today. Congratulations to all of you for your19 hard work.20 I also wanted to put a question to you. 21 Do you think that we're addressing all of the issues22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 176 that are of concern to you? Do you feel that we need1 other working groups? That's something you don't2 necessarily have to answer today, but I would like for3 you to think about it because there are so many things4 that concern us that we want to make sure that we are5 being inclusive with everyone.6 We do have the working group that Vernon7 James heads up that we hopefully will get something8 from. Am I correct, Scott?9 MR. MARSHALL: Scott Marshall.10 He had expressed an interest in the11 possibility of a rural issues, Native American group. 12 I have not heard back from him about that. So I don't13 know what the status is currently. So that may be14 coming. If I do get something, I will send it out on15 the list to ascertain if anybody is interested in16 pursuing that.17 It might very well fit with the18 commission's rural initiative that Dane mentioned19 earlier this afternoon.20 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Okay. Then I would21 ask of you, as I said, to think about what we're22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 177 discussing and if you feel that there are gaps and1 things that we need to bring up.2 COMMENTS FROM THE PUBLIC;3 WRAP-UP; FUTURE MEETINGS4 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: I don't have any5 other items of business except for our public, opening6 for the public. Scott, do you have other information?7 MR. MARSHALL: Except to ask if you8 haven't signed the registration form, it should be in9 the room here. Please do so or at least see me. 10 Especially if you haven't spoken at the meeting, I11 don't know that you're here.12 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: He does not look at13 your hand waving. Right?14 Okay. Well, Debra?15 MEMBER BERLYN: Yes. I just wanted to16 make a general comment -- this is Debbie Berlyn --17 before we go to the public comments. I found this18 format very helpful. I would like to encourage Scott19 and you, Shirley, to include an opportunity for us to20 deliver reports and work together, perhaps not at the21 length we did today but at our next meetings.22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 178 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Yes. Thank you. 1 Yes. We agree with you. We feel it's very2 productive. It's very productive because you all as3 working groups have done your job. So it wouldn't4 have been otherwise. We would have been sitting here5 looking at each other going, "What do we talk about6 now?" So thank goodness for you working, industrious7 people.8 It's my pleasure to open the discussion to9 the public members who are attending here today and to10 invite you for your comments, questions, or concerns. 11 Do we have anyone who wants to address any issues to12 the committee?13 (No response.)14 CHAIRPERSON ROOKER: Well, then if not,15 we're going to end early for a change. I would like16 to thank all of you for making it such a wonderful17 meeting, look forward to seeing you in March, and also18 to wish you all a very happy Thanksgiving and happy19 holiday. So, anyway, thank you very much.20 (Whereupon, at 3:25 p.m., the foregoing21 matter was adjourned.)22