Interview with James Gillenwater [8/12/2002]

Larry Ordner:

This tape is made August 12, 2002, with James Biven Gillenwater. Last name is spelled G-I-L-L-E-N-W-A-T-E-R. Jim resides at 1701 Stinson (ph) Avenue in Evansville, Indiana. He is a native of White County, Illinois. Served in the United States Army in -- for a period of 11 years, between 1962 and 1973. His highest rank attained was that of Staff Sergeant and he enlisted at the age of 17. Served in the primary locations of -- locations in Germany, Vietnam and stateside at Fort Campbell, Kentucky; Fort Hood, Texas; Fort Riley, South Carolina; Fort Gordon, Georgia; Fort Campbell, Kentucky; Fort ________, Washington; Fort Riley, Kansas. He is a winner of many, many service awards, including the Vietnam Cross of Gallantry, two Purple Hearts, three Bronze Stars, an Army commendation medal, an Air Force -- excuse me -- an air medal, aircraft crewman badge, combat infantry badge, good conduct, American campaign Vietnam service medal, two combat overseas bars, two civic certificates of appreciation from President Nixon, certificate of achievement, Commanding General, Fort Knox, Kentucky. Jim, it is a pleasure to have you here today.

James Gillenwater:

Thank you.

Larry Ordner:

Thanks for -- for doing this and I hope it will lead to further interviews through your contacts.

James Gillenwater:

I thank you and thank you, Senator Luger, for giving me this opportunity.

Larry Ordner:

Well, tell me now, you -- you were a native of White County, Kentucky. Had your family moved --

James Gillenwater:

White County, Illinois.

Larry Ordner:

White County, Illinois. And your family moved to Evansville?

James Gillenwater:

Yeah, they did when I was five years old. My father worked for farmers over in White County, Illinois, and --

Larry Ordner:

Uh-huh.

James Gillenwater:

-- it was seasonal, at best. So he come to Evansville one day and started hunting for a job till he got hired on in Evansville. So we moved to Evansville when I was five, so I really don't remember Illinois.

Larry Ordner:

Uh-huh. Well, what can you tell me now about the circumstances that led to your enlistment at age 17, at a very, very young age?

James Gillenwater:

Come from a family of 14 children, okay? Daddy had struggled and struggled and done an excellent job to support us. But he was struggling to support us and in -- in 1962, I -- I realized that he no longer could support me. So I went into the Army as a means of supporting myself. At -- you know, at 17 years old, you don't know anything, you have no qualifications, so...

Larry Ordner:

Now, where were you school-wise at that time?

James Gillenwater:

I had just finished my sophomore year at Marderday (ph) High School.

Larry Ordner:

And can I ask you what the reaction was at home about you leaving school and --

James Gillenwater:

Well, mom cried a lot, but she -- she knew, you know -- I was next to the baby and -- and -- but she signed the paper. She had -- her and daddy both had to sign the papers, and they did. Of course, they never -- they always encouraged every one of the boys, "You -- you will serve in the military," some way, somehow, some shape. That was daddy's --

Larry Ordner:

Uh-huh.

James Gillenwater:

The boys done it. They weren't asked; they were told.

Larry Ordner:

Uh-huh. Well, at -- can you tell me where you went to sign up?

James Gillenwater:

Went down -- at that time the enlistment was in the basement of the old post office down here at Evansville. And I went into the Air Force. I wanted to go in the Air Force. So I went in the Air Force recruiter. And they said, "We can't take you. You don't have a high school education." And I said, "Well, who will?" They said, "The Army." So I went next door to the Army and the guy said, "Yeah, we'll take you." So I think six or seven days later, I was in Indianapolis, and took a variety of tests in Indianapolis. They threw me on a bus and I went to Fort Knox, Kentucky. And at 5:30 the next morning, I woke up to the meanest, orneriest drill sergeant I've ever seen in my life.

Larry Ordner:

And that was boot training at that time?

James Gillenwater:

That was boot camp.

Larry Ordner:

Okay. Well, tell me about boot camp. What was that experience like for you? Was that really your first time away from home, --

James Gillenwater:

Yeah.

Larry Ordner:

-- in that sense?

James Gillenwater:

Yeah.

Larry Ordner:

Yeah. That had to be an awful realization, to wake up in -- in a whole -- a whole new life.

James Gillenwater:

It's the most terrifying thing I've ever been through, including Vietnam.

Larry Ordner:

Really.

James Gillenwater:

Not really, but... no, it was -- yeah, it was terrifying. It was terrifying.

Larry Ordner:

Well, what was that first night -- that first morning like? Do you remember?

James Gillenwater:

We were -- yeah, I do. We were laying in our bunks, actually, a whole barracks full of us, sound asleep and this platoon of drill sergeants come in. I think there was four of them. They flipped on the lights. They started to screaming. They were throwing metal trash cans down the aisle. They were turning bunks over and we were absolutely terrified, terrified beyond -- this is the gospel truth. And he -- I can't recall his name. He was a really little, short, little Puerto Rican drill sergeant. Meanest guy I believe God ever put breath in.

Larry Ordner:

Uh-huh.

James Gillenwater:

He -- you know, he -- he backed off from nothing.

Larry Ordner:

Well, how rigorous was boot training for you?

James Gillenwater:

Very.

Larry Ordner:

Physically? I mean, that was --

James Gillenwater:

Very. And in -- at the -- at the onset -- I had played football, you know, and I thought I had some good training. I didn't.

Larry Ordner:

Uh-huh.

James Gillenwater:

And, of course, each -- each day, it got a little tougher, but it also got a little easier, because your body was getting conditioned and -- and, you know, they -- they have a very, very stringent course at Fort Knox. I -- I can't speak for any of the others, but it's tough. It's very tough. And there were those who didn't make it. I don't remember now. That's been a long time ago.

Larry Ordner:

How long did that period of training last?

James Gillenwater:

Two months.

Larry Ordner:

Two months. And then what was your first assignment?

James Gillenwater:

Well, then I went to AIT, Advanced Individual Training, and I went to Fort Gordon, Georgia.

Larry Ordner:

Was this something now that you had -- did they give you a battery of tests, aptitude tests?

James Gillenwater:

Yes.

Larry Ordner:

So you -- you -- there was some reason why you had this particular assignment?

James Gillenwater:

Yes. I don't --

Larry Ordner:

Okay.

James Gillenwater:

-- recall what the tests are called, but, yeah, they do. They give everybody in -- in basic training a -- a battery of tests __________+. And those tests determine your aptitude for different areas of employment, if you will, or -- or training.

Larry Ordner:

Uh-huh.

James Gillenwater:

And my -- mine -- and they did in high school and other places, too -- is kept scoring very high in the electronics field. So they sent me to Fort Gordon, Georgia, to go through communication school. The first part of that was pole climbing school, climbing the wooden telephone poles. And we had advanced up to the 90-foot pole. I was in next to my last day of that school and we were going to go to the 240-foot towers. On next to the last day of that school, I gaffed out, which, if you're familiar with gaffs, they're the spikes that you stick in wood and climb. I gaffed out and I fell 90 foot. If it hadn't been for the fact that they had sawdust that -- they make it as safe as possible. Well, it broke my back. So I was in the hospital a good while and I came out. And they were talking about sending me back into the same school. And I said, "No, guys, here's -- I ain't going back." (Laughing.) So they said, "Well" -- they put me in what they call a holding company and they done some more testing on me --

Larry Ordner:

Did you think at some point they would discharge you as a result of a condition?

James Gillenwater:

They -- they offered me a discharge.

Larry Ordner:

Did they?

James Gillenwater:

I was still 17 years old; there was nothing for me at home. And they said, "Well, you have to sign a release releasing us of any responsibility of this, or we can't keep you." So I signed the paper, saying okay, you know, I release the United States Army of any responsibility of this back injury. And so they sent me through some more tests. And I sat around down at Fort Gordon, Georgia, for I think something like six weeks in the holding company. And they finally decided to send me through clerical training at Fort Jackson, South Carolina. So I went down there and I somehow made it through the school, the typing school. They -- they -- I amazed them because I never, ever, ever did, and still don't, know the touch system of typing, but I got up to 65 words a minute at one time.

Larry Ordner:

Which is --

James Gillenwater:

I can't do it now.

Larry Ordner:

-- pretty good speed.

James Gillenwater:

It is good. It is -- yeah, they said it's good, actually, for somebody using the touch system.

Larry Ordner:

Uh-huh.

James Gillenwater:

So I went through the -- the clerical school there. And then my first actual permanent duty station, they call it, was Fort Hood, Texas. When I graduated from Fort -- or Fort Jackson, South Carolina, they put us on the train and shipped -- wherever you were going to go. And I -- I, and four others, went to Fort Hood, Texas.

Larry Ordner:

A vastly different climate down there.

James Gillenwater:

Yes.

Larry Ordner:

Was that -- was that a climate adjustment for you being there?

James Gillenwater:

Yeah, it -- it -- it -- it was. The -- the winters -- the winters get cold -- it gets cold in Fort Hood. Fort Hood's south of Waco and it gets cold down in there. We had some snows, like gusting with snows, and I never remember a large accumulation. Very, very hot and humid in the summer. Very much like our summers, really.

Larry Ordner:

What were your duties there, technically?

James Gillenwater:

I started off as -- as a clerk in the personnel department and I stayed in that -- I was at Fort Hood about 18 months. I stayed in that probably for six or eight months. And one day -- we had a Major who was over the department and he come in and he -- he asked me, he said, "How'd you like to be my driver?" So I said, "Yeah, I will do that. It will get me out of here." Because the buildings weren't air conditioned or anything, it was excruciatingly hot. So I started driving for him and I drove for him the rest of the time I was at Fort Hood. I reenlisted at Fort Hood and left.

Larry Ordner:

After Fort Hood, then what next, Jim?

James Gillenwater:

Well, I -- when I reenlisted, I asked for Fort Knox -- or, I'm sorry, Fort Campbell, Kentucky, so I'd be closer to home. And when you reenlist and ask for a place, you're guaranteed one year there. So I was at Fort Campbell, Kentucky, for one year, almost to the day, and come down on orders for Korea. And I was going through preparations of leaving Campbell to go to Korea and some new orders came down and changed me from Korea to Germany.

Larry Ordner:

Well, tell me, now, at -- at that time the U.S. did have quite a presence in Europe; didn't it?

James Gillenwater:

Yes, they did. Oh, yeah, the largest ever, I think.

Larry Ordner:

Yeah. And then when -- a lot of it -- it was really -- it was certainly the height of the Cold War, wasn't it, probably at that time?

James Gillenwater:

Yeah, it had just -- just finished the 1961 uprising in Berlin. I -- that was in 1965 when I went over.

Larry Ordner:

Uh-huh.

James Gillenwater:

It was four years just --

Larry Ordner:

And the U.S. -- U.S. probably had a huge presence in Germany.

James Gillenwater:

Yeah. And I went to the largest of those presence in Germany, which is Kaiserslautern. You've heard of the Ramstein Air Force Base where all these -- it's in Kaiserslautern, Germany.

Larry Ordner:

What was the nature of the U.S. presence there? What -- what was the U.S. doing at that time in Germany? How would you term that?

James Gillenwater:

Setting on -- on the head of a pin, if you will. It was a very -- I'm searching for a word here -- very -- you could tell there was unrest. It was -- you know -- and it was not only in the -- in the -- the presence of Berlin, while I was there, we had the big flare-up with -- with France and -- and Charles de Gaulle threw us out. And we had -- we had a lot of -- of personnel and material in France and when Charles de Gaulle threw us out of France in 1966, I think, the people in Kaiserslautern, Germany -- as I said, it was the biggest U.S. -- and still is -- accumulation of -- of U.S. personnel in Germany. And we had a huge transportation battalion there, which my brother was in it. We were in Germany at the same time, right across the street from each other.

Larry Ordner:

I'll be darned.

James Gillenwater:

Yeah.

Larry Ordner:

And that was just -- was that just coincidental?

James Gillenwater:

Yeah, as a matter of fact, he went to Germany two months before I did and, I believe, he was over there when I went, but I had no idea of where. And I was at finance, processing in there in Kaiserslautern, Germany. And this guy seen my nametag and he says, "Gillenwater," he says, "You know a Gary?" I said, "Yeah, that's my brother." He said, "Are you just coming in country?" And I said, "Yeah." He said, "Well, did you know he's here?" I said, "I have no idea where he's at. I know he's in Germany." Come to find out, we could look out our barrack's windows -- window across the street and see each other.

Larry Ordner:

Very small world _________+.

James Gillenwater:

It is, yeah. So -- but, anyway, when he was in this transportation battalion, that when de Gaulle threw us out of France, they ran 24 hours, around the clock, a massive, massive convoy. And they didn't leave a toothpick in France. And they brought it all down to Kaiserslautern, Germany, into these huge, huge, huge warehouses. They had -- and I don't know what eventually happened to it. But I'm told when they left France, they did not leave even as much as a toothpick there. (Clearing throat.) But it was kind of a unique deal with my brother being over there. Because I was married. My wife didn't go over with me when I initially went. In fact, I went by troop ship the first time. Went over on the USS Darby. And she was pregnant and -- our son was born and, when he was six weeks old, she and my son came over. And I -- I got a place off -- off post to live on the Germany economy. And it give my brother and his -- and his friends -- it was -- it was a really unique situation, because on weekends -- you know, they really didn't have a place to go or some place they could feel safe or, you know -- so, my wife was a really congenial person and she said, "Okay, you know, they can come here." So we -- we -- we didn't have very many rules. The one rule we had is, "Our bedroom's off limits under any kind of circumstances. The rest of the house is pretty well yours within reason. You know, if you get drunk and disorderly, you're out of here." We allowed them to drink there. We -- we would start playing pinochle on a Friday night when we would get off and we would play sometimes almost continually, with just small breaks, until Sunday evening sometime, and they would all go back to the barracks. But we've had probably as high as -- I don't know, I'm guessing -- 10, 12 guys in that apartment. You know, and everybody was a gentleman. Nobody ever got out of line. You know, they would all bring in beer and Cokes and food and just -- you know, everybody pooled things together and we would -- it would be a party every weekend. It's an experience I won't ever forget and I'm sure they won't, either. But it was kind of like a USO, if you will --

Larry Ordner:

Uh-huh.

James Gillenwater:

-- for them. Because we didn't have anything like that in Germany. Not then. I don't know about now.

Larry Ordner:

What other instances do you remember as being the key moments of your time in Germany?

James Gillenwater:

Oh, there's many. Well, the -- on -- on the down side of that, the three years -- I was there three years and in 1967 we had a daughter born over there and she died at 10 weeks old. And she was the -- at that point in time, she was the 11th documented case of crib death, SIDS or however -- there's several names for it. That was in 1967. She was the 11th documented case. And now there's millions, I guess. Untold, you know. And -- and they said, you know, this probably had went on before and they didn't know what it was. But after they had discovered what it was and started documenting them, she was the 11th known case in the entire world.

Larry Ordner:

Well, your time in Germany was up _____+. When did you leave Germany?

James Gillenwater:

April 1968, the day Martin Luther King was assassinated.

Larry Ordner:

Oh, goodness.

James Gillenwater:

In fact, we had purchased a car in Germany, a -- a 1965 Mustang. I got this thing. In Germany, you don't pay taxes or anything. And I think I got it for like 5200 dollars.

Larry Ordner:

Uh-huh.

James Gillenwater:

A '65 Mustang, which would be a collector's, if I had it now. And they brought it -- by then I had enough rank and time that the government paid to ship this car home for me. And it was being shipped into Philadelphia. And we flew into McGuire Air Force Base and then we were going to go to Philadelphia and get the car. Well, when we landed, we were told to, "Get -- get in your car. Martin Luther King's been killed today and all docks are shut down." It's predominantly black up there on those docks and they said, "They are -- they are shut down."

Larry Ordner:

What was your reaction when you heard that news?

James Gillenwater:

Well, disturbing. I said, "Well, what am I supposed to do now?" They said, "Well, we don't know. But what you're going to have to do is go home and we'll notify you when your car -- you know, when we can get your car released and you'll have to come back and get it."

Larry Ordner:

Did you come back to this area, then?

James Gillenwater:

Yeah. Yeah, I came back to Evansville. What -- what we actually done that night, I had a brother lived in Richmond, Virginia, some three hours away. And we called him and he drove up and got us. And we spent a couple of days with him. And then we flew home. And I took -- I had a 30-day leave and -- and we were home, I think, three weeks. And my father-in-law and I -- flew back to Philadelphia and they finally released the car, and picked it up and drove it home.

Larry Ordner:

Yeah. What was it like even coming back to Evansville on leave at that time?

James Gillenwater:

It was -- it was a real, real adjustment. A lot -- believe it or not, a lot of things change in three years. And, number one, I came home and -- I don't drink anymore, but then I did -- and I didn't -- I didn't want a cold beer. I wanted hot beer, because you couldn't get cold beer in Germany back then. They drank it at room temperature, and I adjusted to that. And then I came home and my brother handed me a can of beer. And I'm setting there and I said, "Aren't you going to give me a church key or something?" He said, "Don't use church keys; you got pull tabs." "They got what?" He says, "You got pull tabs. You just pull a tab off there." I had never seen one. They had been out -- I don't know -- two years, two and a half years, during the time that I was in Germany, and I'd never seen a pull tab beer. So that was -- there -- there's a lot of things you had -- you had to readjust to, the conveniences -- you know, we didn't have them in Germany, you know. There was -- there was -- there was an armed forces TV network over there. It was -- it was in black and white and the shows weren't even worth -- and, of course, there was no VCRs or anything during that time period, you know. So to come home and be able to sit down and watch a movie on TV in color and stuff, you know, was just -- we had no air conditioning in Germany, you know, so that's --

Larry Ordner:

Yeah.

James Gillenwater:

-- that's -- there was a lot of changes. I don't -- I just don't -- you know, I don't recall all of them.

Larry Ordner:

Well, following your time back here in Evansville for leave, where did you go then when -- did they finally get back in touch with you and say, "Report to" --

James Gillenwater:

Well, no, no, I knew where I was going.

Larry Ordner:

Okay.

James Gillenwater:

I just didn't know when I could get my car.

Larry Ordner:

Right.

James Gillenwater:

I knew where I was going at the end of my 30-day leave, which was Fort Knox, Kentucky. I had reenlisted again in Germany. And, again, you -- you're guaranteed one year at your station. Well, I -- I reenlisted for Fort Knox, Kentucky, this time. I was at Fort Knox, Kentucky, approximately one year and -- almost to the day, and came down on orders for Vietnam.

Larry Ordner:

Did -- I guess they came as no surprise, right? Or did it, that you were __________+?

James Gillenwater:

Oh, no, no, no, it didn't at all. It didn't at all. But I -- I processed out of Fort Knox, Kentucky, and I got to Fort Lewis, Washington, where I was to leave for Vietnam. Well, I -- stationed there was a Sergeant, a Sergeant First Class, who was a very, very dear friend of mine in Germany, and a Major that I knew in Germany. And they said, "Hey, we know what your skills are," which were at that time personnel management, but -- the majority of that time was. And they said, "How'd you like to stay here at Fort Lewis, Washington, and help us process compassionate reassignments?" And I said, "Sounds good to me, man, above and beyond Vietnam, you know, sure." So they reassigned me to Fort Lewis, Washington. We -- they had a lot of contacts with the Pentagon. We dealt directly with the Pentagon on a daily basis.

Larry Ordner:

Uh-huh.

James Gillenwater:

So they knew the buttons to push in the Pentagon. They said, "Yeah, no problem, we can do that." Excuse me. So I got reassigned to Fort Lewis, Washington. And I flew home and I got my family and we all moved to the Seattle-Tacoma area. And I stayed out there one year and come down on orders for Vietnam again. So relocated my family back to the Evansville area. And, while I was on leave, I went to -- to Washington, DC, and went to the Pentagon and got a tour that nobody will ever get.

Larry Ordner:

Yeah.

James Gillenwater:

It's mind boggling. The Pentagon is mind boggling. And so the people that I had gotten to know in the Pentagon through Fort Lewis, Washington, talked with everybody, knew them all. And they said, "Yeah," they said, "we can -- there's -- there's one way we could keep you out of Vietnam, is to send you to Honolulu, Hawaii." And I said, "Bust my bubble, send me to Honolulu." They said, "Now, here's the kickback." They said, "You won't -- you probably won't take your family," because they said, "living off ________, there's no way you can afford it. There's just" -- and they said, you know, "It takes every dime even to live over there, even if you're" -- the cost of living is phenomenal. So I said, "Well," I said, "if I'm going to be separated from my family anyway, I might as well go to DaNang." So I did. I -- I left Washington, DC, and flew to Oakland, California. In Oakland, California, I processed and went to Vietnam.

Larry Ordner:

So many men who have been to Vietnam tell me the same story. What was your first reaction when you stepped off that plane? What do you recall most?

James Gillenwater:

Fear. We -- we -- we landed at night. And I don't know for how long we were over Vietnam, but I can remember looking down at this jet at 40,000 foot. They flew extremely high to stay out of the range. But you could look down and you could see these bombs going off and this -- you know, from the plane, going in, you know? And I'd think, My God, I'm going down there? You know. And the -- the VC had a very, very psychological effect. They -- they knew -- they would watch for these planes to come in. And 15, 20 minutes after you land, they would shoot a rocket in there. They didn't shoot for effect. They didn't shoot to hit anything. It was a psychological effect and, boy, it had it. It had it.

Larry Ordner:

What do you remember about that?

James Gillenwater:

It's probably one of the most terrifying moments in my life, you know. I knew -- not even knowing what a 122 rocket was, had never even heard of one. I -- I knew that some explosive device had went off --

Larry Ordner:

Yeah.

James Gillenwater:

-- and everybody was laying flat on the ground, you know, so we -- and so it's -- it was very terrifying. It -- it was so -- it's so new and so shocking that, you know, I just -- I just remember it being very terrifying.

Larry Ordner:

So many men have told me when they step off the plane that one of the first -- first thing they recall was -- well, really, two things. They remember the oppressive heat hitting them in the face and they remember the stench.

James Gillenwater:

The smell. The smell -- I knew you were going to say the smell, yeah.

Larry Ordner:

What was that like? And I suppose it's something that it's impossible to describe, but you could smell it even --

James Gillenwater:

Yeah, there -- there is no smell like it. Can I smell it now? Sure, I can.

Larry Ordner:

Yeah.

James Gillenwater:

Yeah, I can remember the smell. It's -- I don't recall anything like it ever, ever, ever in life and hopefully never will again. But I -- I don't know why you -- why I knew you were going to say the stench but when you said there was two things --

Larry Ordner:

I've heard it over and over and over.

James Gillenwater:

The heat -- the night we landed, I guess it was reasonably cool for that -- it was in April. And even the summer there runs somewhat with our summer. So it wasn't as hot as it gets and -- but I do remember the stench, the smell, yeah.

Larry Ordner:

A lot of guys have told me that -- that as they were coming in, they could see other troops on their way out. Was that the case for you?

James Gillenwater:

I did -- well, if -- if so, I didn't know what they were doing. You mean, processing out?

Larry Ordner:

Yeah.

James Gillenwater:

Well, yeah, we -- yeah, sure. But I didn't see that then, more or less. I landed at Cam Ran Bay going in.

Larry Ordner:

Oh, okay.

James Gillenwater:

And I think they kept those separated, because it has a -- it has a -- a stifling psychological effect to know you're -- your first day in country and there are others going home. It gets -- the -- and you know you've got 12 months over there and this guy's on his way home to see his family.

Larry Ordner:

One guy told me the seeing of -- of bodies being loaded in a plane virtually next to his plane that he was coming in on and -- and the impact that that had on him.

James Gillenwater:

I --

Larry Ordner:

I just cannot imagine.

James Gillenwater:

Well --

Larry Ordner:

I cannot imagine.

James Gillenwater:

I -- I never saw that. I've loaded bodies on -- on helicopters in body bags. I -- I remember, I guess, that the first -- the first thing that really, really, really stuck in my mind when -- when they -- they had us lined up when we come off the plane, you know, and there was this Sergeant there. And he told us, he said, "The very, very first thing I want you to do is forget everything the Army's ever taught you, because it will get you killed over here." He says this is a different war, this is a different country, this is different world than you've ever seen or known. So forget everything the Army's ever taught you." And, come to find out, he was right. They generally are, you know.

Larry Ordner:

After -- after you finally got there, were you sent to like a holding station before you went out on an assignment?

James Gillenwater:

Yeah, I -- I stayed in Cam Ran Bay for -- I think it was right at a week, probably five, six, seven days. I don't recall exactly. Yeah. And then they -- they split us up. We each went in -- I was the only one -- I went to Pleiku, which is way up in the highlands, right up on the north Vietnamese border. Very, very, very high combat area. It was -- it was up in -- in the jungles, the really, really, really dense jungles, the rainforest, if you will, if there's one of Vietnam, the rainforest and there's -- the vegetation is close. Mountains. Not just hills, but mountains. It was really rough terrain to fight in, really rough.

Larry Ordner:

Joe, I -- I -- I wouldn't even begin to know how -- how to ask you about this time, what -- what this was like, but it had to be overpoweringly to the senses, as well as just the nerve.

James Gillenwater:

Well, it -- yeah, it was and -- and it was particularly bad, I think, from my standpoint, because at that time I was still working in personnel and -- and we worked in a tent. And, you know, you're setting there typing and all of a sudden a rocket comes in on you, you know, and slams the tent next door. Or, you know, a mortar round comes in and hits a couple of hundred yards away. And I was there, I think, approximately two months and I said, well, something's got to change. I said if -- if I'm going to get sent here and get shot at, I'm going to do something where I can shoot back, you know. I'm at least going to know I'm getting shot at, I'm going to be shot at. So I got to looking around to different things that I might be able to do over there. And they said, "Well, the only thing you can -- only way we can put you into anything like this is to make you an aerial observer." I said, "Well, okay, don't sound too bad to me. What do they do?" And they said, "Well, they sit up and they observe." I said, "Okay, put me in that." So they -- they put me in that and then I -- I -- when they put me in that, I left Pleiku and went down to Onkay (ph). And Onkay, again, was one of the -- the highlight points. War was -- in 19 -- I went over in 1970. War was rampant in the Onkay area.

Larry Ordner:

Uh-huh.

James Gillenwater:

So after a few days of training, I actually went out in -- in an aerial observer you -- they fly down -- they -- their average height is about 30, 40 foot off the ground. Well -- and we would actually go in lower than that and take our -- the wash of the rotor and fan the jungle open, looking for them. And -- and at that time we might be six to eight foot off the ground. And they -- your job is to find them. And then, of course, if you can find them and get out, the Cobras come in and get them, but --

Larry Ordner:

Well, wasn't that an enormously high-risk situation?

James Gillenwater:

It's called suicide missions.

Larry Ordner:

Yeah.

James Gillenwater:

You know, you -- if you talk to anybody that -- that was in Vietnam and knows what a -- a Loach -- they called us Loach jockeys -- what an aerial observer was, it was -- it was known as the suicide mission, yeah. I, in fact, was shot down nine times and actually hit twice. But being shot down nine times was not -- no ways near close to a record.

Larry Ordner:

Were you -- were you ever close to being captured?

James Gillenwater:

Very. Very, very, very, very close. One time I saw them close enough to count 17 of them.

Larry Ordner:

Wow!

James Gillenwater:

And --

Larry Ordner:

I'm sure that that -- that's just absolutely engrained in your mind, what that scene looked like.

James Gillenwater:

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's engrained, tattooed, engraved, however you want to say that. I could look right now and see those faces.

Larry Ordner:

Yeah.

James Gillenwater:

Yes, 35 years later, as hard as I've tried -- and I have tried to -- to forget that, yeah. But normally when we -- when we were down there, we would wash the jungle open and find them. Normally, once we found them, they knew they were found and they threw everything they had at us. And that's -- that's why we went down so -- so often, so many times. You know, in fact, I went down twice in one day.

Larry Ordner:

Can I ask you, how did you -- how you managed to, for lack of a better term, --

James Gillenwater:

Stayed drunk.

Larry Ordner:

-- how did you stay sane during that time, in order to do it?

James Gillenwater:

I knew what you were going to ask me. Did you hear my response?

Larry Ordner:

Yeah, I did.

James Gillenwater:

Many, many, many mornings, we went out and we were still drunk. We drank anything we could get our hands on. We used to take Mennen aftershave -- they give it to you. Somehow they got ahold of a bunch of this. They give it to us. We would take Mennen's aftershave and strain it through a piece of bread and drink the alcohol. The bread would take the perfume out. We would drink the alcohol. We would melt Kiwi shoe polish down and -- and strain it through a piece of paper and it would take the polish and stuff out and leave the alcohol. Anything -- anything that would -- would make you -- would help you -- get you into obliteration so you just -- it's -- now, I can -- you know, and I'm not hunting sympathy. I'm --

Larry Ordner:

I know. I know you're not.

James Gillenwater:

I'm beyond that.

Larry Ordner:

I know.

James Gillenwater:

I'm beyond that.

Larry Ordner:

I know.

James Gillenwater:

We done anything that would get us -- get us high. Marijuana, yeah, I smoked marijuana and, "Yes, Mr. Clinton, I inhaled." I never did try the hard dope. And I didn't like marijuana and -- and when I came home, I never touched it again. I've never touched it since. But I -- over there, you know, if I could get it, yeah, I smoked it. Smoke or drink anything you can think of.

Larry Ordner:

How long were you in a situation where it was any time you could have gone out on a mission you -- you really cheated death? How -- how many -- how -- how long were you in that kind of situation?

James Gillenwater:

I -- I don't understand.

Larry Ordner:

How long were you in a situation where if you went on a mission, you -- you really faced death, possibility of death?

James Gillenwater:

Every day.

Larry Ordner:

And that's how -- what I'm -- how long?

James Gillenwater:

Nine months.

Larry Ordner:

Nine months.

James Gillenwater:

Yeah. And --

Larry Ordner:

Was it typically that -- this kind of role that you described? Did you have other -- what other kind of situations were you placed in?

James Gillenwater:

In Vietnam?

Larry Ordner:

Yeah.

James Gillenwater:

Well, that pretty well was my -- the -- I done that until I came home.

Larry Ordner:

Wow!

James Gillenwater:

In fact, I -- I spent 13 months -- I actually had my orders to come home and -- we had never hit the VC in Laos. We had hit them in North and South Vietnam. We had hit them in Cambodia. We had never hit them in Laos where they were -- they're in -- in -- in May of 1971 they were planning this huge incursion into Laos, okay? And what we didn't know and -- and it surprised me that the American -- if they did know this, we didn't know it, okay? Everything we run out of North and South Vietnam, we moved them into Laos. Everything we run out of Cambodia, they moved into Laos. We didn't know it. They were sitting there waiting for us. They knew some day we were going to come there, okay? The day we went in, it's -- it was the most awesome sight. The sky was almost black with helicopters. And you looked down below and almost every square inch is covered by a tank or an armored personnel carrier or a jeep or a deuce and a half or some piece of equipment. It was awesome, moving just like a -- a wall going in there. We weren't 10 minutes over the border, helicopters starting falling like flies. Deuce and a halfs, tanks, APCs just blowing -- being blown to -- they knew we were coming. They -- they had everything that they had that had been run from anywhere else in -- in -- in that area there waiting for us. And that's what -- that's the morning I got shot down the ninth time. So I went to -- I went to my commanding officer and I said, "Sir, today was my ninth time." He said, "I know how many times you've been shot down. I keep records." I said, "Here's the deal, sir. I'm on an extension. I'm supposed to already be at the house with my family, okay?" I said, "I will serve the rest of my extension. I'll do the honorable thing, but I will not go back up in another helicopter." And he said, "That's fair enough." So he put me back in personnel management and I spent the rest -- I think it was 29 days of my extension. I think my extension was 29 days, working on personnel records. But I -- I told him, I said, "Sir, I'll go back to Leavenworth before I'll go back up," you know. I felt like I was pushing the issue.

Larry Ordner:

Yeah. I -- I just can't imagine nine months of that.

James Gillenwater:

Well --

Larry Ordner:

I mean, and you had to have -- I mean, staying sane, I just can't imagine what staying sane was like.

James Gillenwater:

I'm not sure I am.

Larry Ordner:

But -- but it changed you forever, didn't it?

James Gillenwater:

Yeah. Yeah. I lost my first family when I came home. I lost one job after job after job after job after job, just -- and I had -- you know, I had gone on and schooled myself through the help of the Army, you know. I got my GED --

Larry Ordner:

Yeah.

James Gillenwater:

-- while I was in Germany. I got some high -- some college credits through the University of Maryland while I was in Germany. (Beeping tone.) And I went to every --

Larry Ordner:

Go ahead.

James Gillenwater:

And every -- every -- everything that I've said is right in here (thumping). I -- I have -- see, I was in personnel management --

Larry Ordner:

Uh-huh.

James Gillenwater:

-- so I had an edge -- edge over everybody else. I -- I have -- I was smart enough to keep my records, so I have -- I have all of my personnel records.

Larry Ordner:

Can I ask you, what -- what was it like -- with the tasks over there that you were doing being so difficult, how did you accept honors? Did you -- did it -- was that awkward for you? Was it difficult being honored?

James Gillenwater:

There was -- there was no honors over there. There -- there was -- there was no honors.

Larry Ordner:

Really.

James Gillenwater:

Well --

Larry Ordner:

Well, I guess what I'm asking, like your -- your Cross of Gallantry, your --

James Gillenwater:

I --

Larry Ordner:

-- Purple Hearts --

James Gillenwater:

Yeah. Yeah, I -- all those were awarded after I got home. I never --

Larry Ordner:

Is that right?

James Gillenwater:

Yeah, I never -- our -- our unit was so involved -- and, as a matter fact, when I came home and I started -- I didn't do anything -- well, there's too many stories to tie in here. I was only home a short -- from Vietnam two years when I got out of the Army. But when I got out and I started -- my disability started to surface, okay, PTSD being the first one. I actually enjoyed killing. I actually, you know -- when I -- when I come home stateside, I wanted to kill. I -- I wanted to kill somebody, you know. But all of these medals were awarded out of Fort Riley, Kansas, after I came home. My -- I didn't get any -- because when I -- when I got out and started applying for my disabilities, the paperwork that the VA needed to process, I didn't have here, okay? And so I couldn't get them. I -- I wrote St. Louis and I -- and I didn't get anything, didn't get anything. So I got in my car one day and I drove to St. Louis to the records center, okay. After a four-hour wait, I finally got up and got to see my military records jacket, okay. And you set across the table from a guy and he said, "You cannot touch this file. If you want a page turned, you tell me, I'll turn it for you. You don't touch it." My -- my record, after 11 years in the Army, had three pieces of paper in it and had been wet. Even the discharge papers they had in it were wrong. I have no idea where they got them. No idea where they got the papers in that file. And so I -- I was lucky enough, I remembered that -- the town where my commanding officer in Vietnam lived. And so I got on the phone and started calling the information in that town and -- and I finally found him. And I called him and -- and I told him, I said, "Sir, what's going on?" I said, you know, "They can't find any record that I was shot down in Vietnam nine times, that I was hit." And I -- and then he said, "Well, what do you need from me?" And I said, "Well, a statement that -- that this happened." He said, "No problem." And he wrote them a statement. And then he wrote them a letter, which he sent me a copy of. He didn't send me a statement. He wrote me a copy of the -- of the letter he wrote them. And he said, "What you people need to know, I was a Major in the United States Army" -- he still was -- and he said, "In Vietnam we were -- we were there fighting a war. We weren't there to take care of paperwork." And twice -- twice our operations hut, where -- which is where all the paperwork would have been kept, was destroyed. He said, "You know, there's -- there is no records of much of what went on in Vietnam, but he said, "you know, I can personally attest that Staff Sergeant Gillenwater done this and he done that and he done" -- and he was able to -- and based on his words, my commanding officer, then they started recognizing my disabilities.

Larry Ordner:

Yeah. Jim, this -- this is probably the defining time of your life, wasn't it? Because there was like your life before this and then your life after.

James Gillenwater:

Yeah. And I liked the one before a lot better.

Larry Ordner:

What did it take for you to get your life back? Did the VA help you enough?

James Gillenwater:

No.

Larry Ordner:

No.

James Gillenwater:

No.

Larry Ordner:

What -- so what did you -- how did you -- how did you -- how did you overcome all this? And I know it's -- you're -- you feel probably like you're still a work in progress --

James Gillenwater:

Oh, yeah.

Larry Ordner:

-- but --

James Gillenwater:

Oh, yeah.

Larry Ordner:

How -- how did you overcome? Because you have overcome so much.

James Gillenwater:

Well, the first 10 years back, I -- I stayed drunk. In that 10-year period, Larry, I do not remember a day of being totally, totally sober. Now, I'm not talking about stumbling down drunk.

Larry Ordner:

I know.

James Gillenwater:

And then I don't -- I don't -- the VA did help some, I guess. They didn't have a -- a really psychiatric department, like they do now here, and back -- well, really, they didn't help at that point. But I just -- you know, I don't know why, just one morning I just got up, you know, and I said, "This has got to stop," you know? Something jerked me back into realization. I don't know how you feel about -- how -- what your religious beliefs are, but I -- I had twice got picked up for drunk driving and they were both in Henderson, Kentucky. And a million times I could have got it right here in Evansville and never did. And -- but they weren't as strict on it then. But the second time, I was laying in the drunk tank over in Henderson, Kentucky, and it's -- it's almost like a voice came to me and it -- you know, it's kind of like God said, "All right, boy, I've knocked you to your knees. Now I want to talk to you." And it wasn't that.

Larry Ordner:

Yeah.

James Gillenwater:

That was the perception since I got -- it was like a feeling. So, you know, I -- I started to realize that, you know, I was headed down a one-way street backwards and I wasn't going to stay around this -- I had done lost my family, you know, lost job after job after job, good jobs, good jobs. I could -- I -- I -- I'm -- I could always get a good job. And back then there was jobs available. You know, if I lost one this morning, I'd go get another one this afternoon. And I always had good jobs, but I couldn't keep them. But I -- I can't --

Larry Ordner:

What was it that -- that got in the way more than anything?

James Gillenwater:

Got in the way?

Larry Ordner:

What prevented you from keeping jobs? What --

James Gillenwater:

Temper.

Larry Ordner:

Temper.

James Gillenwater:

Temper. Temper, yeah. I mean, I'd go from -- and I still can, and I'm not bragging -- from zero to 60, like that, yeah. From -- from a totally likeable guy to a guy you would just love to kill, just (snaps fingers) like that. It's -- it's better now because, you know, I've been through a lot of treatment, I'm on a lot of medication. I'm on mind-altering drugs right now, and they tell me I will be the rest of my life. I walk around kind of zombie. Most days I don't even feel like -- they -- they bring you down.

Larry Ordner:

Yeah.

James Gillenwater:

That's what they're supposed to do. And with that, there's kind of a bad feeling. But I remember when I very first started to going through therapy with a psychiatrist here in the clinic, you know, and they were evaluating me for my PTSD rating, the first -- the first question this -- this -- the first thing this psychiatrist said to me -- it's Dr. ________ in here right now. She's still here. She ought to be shot. She -- she said, "Well, tell me about your experiences in Vietnam." I said, "Whoa, are you nuts or what?" END OF SIDE ONE, TAPE ONE; BEGIN SIDE TWO, TAPE ONE.

James Gillenwater:

She was -- she was very adamant that I had to relate to her my experiences in Vietnam. I said, "No, I can't. I don't" -- I said, "For one thing" -- I said, "For one, I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to relive them." And I said, "For another, I'm not going to put myself in Lieutenant Calley's" --

Larry Ordner:

Uh-huh.

James Gillenwater:

Because I had done things in Vietnam that I'm not going to relate to you or her or anybody else. I can be prosecuted.

Larry Ordner:

Uh-huh. I understand.

James Gillenwater:

I done them because I had to do them. I -- I think Lieutenant Calley was a fall guy. There was absolute -- there was villages over there napalmed because they were full of children -- the psychological -- one of the things they liked to do was go in, Charlie liked to go in in the middle of the night and kill all the adults in a -- in a village and leave the little children, three -- three years old and below, okay. We had -- the United States had set up some orphanages over there. They were bulging at the seams. There absolutely was no room for -- what are you going to do with these children? If you left them there, the predators would --

Larry Ordner:

Well.

James Gillenwater:

What are you going to do? I'm not going to say what we done, but you can figure it out.

Larry Ordner:

Can you -- one final thing, Jim. Is there any way that you -- looking back these years later, have you come to look at things any differently about Vietnam? Have -- do you -- have you been able to sort through that it's -- it's not controlling you or it's still -- or does it still?

James Gillenwater:

It does.

Larry Ordner:

It does.

James Gillenwater:

Yeah. Tell me how to get away from it? 35 years. I'm 35 years now out of Vietnam.

Larry Ordner:

Yeah.

James Gillenwater:

I live it every day.

Larry Ordner:

Yeah. What made you become active in veterans affairs?

James Gillenwater:

When I --

Larry Ordner:

Has that been a good outlet for you?

James Gillenwater:

Yeah. Yeah. When I got my 100 percent disability, I didn't -- I felt like I didn't want to be a drain on -- I don't -- I don't want it to be welfare.

Larry Ordner:

Right.

James Gillenwater:

Okay.

Larry Ordner:

Right.

James Gillenwater:

And so I sat down and I talked with my -- with my wife and I said, "Okay, you know, I'm going to have a lot of time on my hands," and I said, "I got to figure out something to do with that." So I said, "You know, I -- I've got to set myself some priorities." And, of course -- and -- and I don't know if you're a religious man or not and I don't want to -- but I said, number one, in my life has got to be God, because He's the one that's gotten me through this. And He is. I could not -- I would not be here today if it wasn't for God, and I know that. I know that. And I pray to Him daily now. I could not have gotten through Vietnam. I could not have gotten through the -- the years after. I could not get through today or tomorrow without Him. I -- I lean that strongly on Him and He's -- there's been many a time that there's been one -- one set of footprints in the sand, if you're familiar with that. Many, many times, because He's had to carry me over and over and over again. But that was my number one priority. My family, which I had much neglected before because of my drinking and everything, became my second, you know -- and on this earth, first priority. Then came my veterans. And I call them "my" veterans. I guess it's -- it's a -- it's a phrase I've acquired. And then my community. And so I started looking at avenues to help my veterans, you know? I started looking at the different service organizations and I've belonged to all of them, Disabled American Veterans, American Legion, all of them, okay? And then I got to realize the VFW is nothing more than a place for them to go and drink and get drunk and talk about their troubles, okay. I no longer drink. I don't have -- I'm not opposed to you sitting down and drinking a beer, you know, and I'll -- and I'll sit there. But I am -- I don't want to be around drunks anymore, you know. And I'll sit down and listen to your story if you're sober and I can help you, but I don't want to sit around the bar and -- at the VFW post and listen to these crying -- these guys crying in their beer about their experiences in Vietnam and Korea, because, to begin with is -- if they're drunk, it's not realistic. You know, the longer they go, the -- the worse the situation was. You know, tomorrow they can't tell you what they told you the night before. I don't want to be around that. The American Legion, all of them. And -- and then I discovered Disabled American Veterans one day and so I started -- I started to getting really, really involved and there was a chapter here in town and I --

Larry Ordner:

_____________+. Okay.

James Gillenwater:

And I got real, real involved in it and then -- and then I started -- one day I got -- I started asking some questions, because I had looked at the financial books and there were some things I didn't understand, so I -- I started asking some questions about that and was told, "Well, we don't discuss that." And I said, "You -- you have to discuss it. I have a right to know." Well, this went on over a -- to make a long story short, I finally got ahold of some of the records and I found 60,000 dollars missing in just a brief -- so I turned them in to the State Department, because don't steal from my veterans. Steal from Whirlpool Corporation, steal from the state, you know. Don't steal from my veterans. Don't mess with my veterans. So I turned them in to the state and the state saw what I had, so they came down here and they had a meeting with them and they shut them down.

Larry Ordner:

Uh-huh.

James Gillenwater:

And they -- and they -- they took the records back to Indianapolis with them. And they found 133,000 dollars missing. And that's part of with this Mark ________, everybody -- he was part of that. Anyway, so they -- they put them in a trusteeship and the National Commander appointed four trustees to oversee their money and their -- their activities, et cetera, and I was one of those four trustees. So things really got involved. We even had one court hearing. And then finally one day the National Commander came back and he said -- (clearing throat) excuse me -- he said, "Here's the deal," he said, "you know, we can -- we can file suits and we can fight in court forever. The 330,000 is gone. You're never going to get it back," you know. So he said, "What I think we need to do" -- and he was talking to me, he said, "I want you -- I'm going to authorize you to start a new DAV chapter in Evansville and -- and we will -- we will build from there." And he said, "I'm going to give you the power to select who you want in that chapter. You know, in other words, if one of these guys from Chapter 7 wants to come into your chapter just to infiltrate you, and, you know, carry stuff back, you have the authority to tell them no." Well, we started this, it's -- it was three -- we were three years old in -- in March and we're now over 400 strong. And I work seven days a week on DAV. I give no less than -- than seven to eight hours of every day to DAV, every day. And my wife -- my wife will attest, the State Commander will attest to it. For two years, the last two years running, I've been the highest recruiter in the state of Indiana. I've recruited more people, new people for Disabled American Veterans. There's hundreds of thousands of veterans out there that have no idea what their benefits rights are. I go out and I recruit them. I drag them out of -- I've been down under bridges here in town where you've heard about the homeless? I've been down under the bridges, talking to them. I dig them out of everywhere I can dig them. The -- the new chapter I started in Evansville is the fastest-growing chapter in the state of Indiana and last year the National Commander said we were the fastest-growing chapter in the nation.

Larry Ordner:

That's great.

James Gillenwater:

I don't know if that's still true or not.

Larry Ordner:

That's great.

James Gillenwater:

But I -- I live, I eat, I breathe DAV. And now I'm in several other civic organizations, as I told you. I'm president of the Big Blue Booster __________+ and -- and other -- I work with the police department here. I went through the policy academy and graduated, as a civilian.

Larry Ordner:

Well, Jim, thanks so much --

James Gillenwater:

Well --

Larry Ordner:

-- for doing this.

James Gillenwater:

Thank you, Larry.

Larry Ordner:

______________+.

James Gillenwater:

I mean, you know, I'm sorry I went over my time.

Larry Ordner:

You did a great job. Thank you.

James Gillenwater:

There's -- you know, I -- I -- I hope you got what you wanted, what you were looking for.

Larry Ordner:

Excellent comments. I appreciate your taking the time to do this.

James Gillenwater:

We appreciate __________.

[Conclusion of Interview]