INTERVIEW WITH McKINLEY BROWN

JANUARY 18, 2002

Bob Mathes:

...18th, 2002, and this is the beginning of the interview with Mr. McKinley Brown, being conducted at the Oak Park Bed Center, 155 South Oak Park Avenue, Oak Park, Illinois. Mr. Brown is currently 82 years old, and having been born on February 16th, 1920, he resides at 1101 North Lemington Avenue in Chicago, Illinois. My name is Bob Mathes and I will be the interviewer. I work as a counselor for the department of veterans affairs, the adjustment counseling service. Mr. Brown, could you state for this interview what war and what branch of service you served in?

McKinley Brown:

Yes, I can. I served in the U.S. Army and the branch of service was the 54th Coast Artillary. The Coast Artillary was a regiment, and it originated in Texas. I don't remember the town it was close to, if it was Dallas or Houston or someplace in that area, but that's where it originated. But I joined the regiment at North Carolina,

Wilmington, North Carolina in the year of 1941.

Bob Mathes:

Okay, thank you. Can you tell us what rank, military rank you achieved in the army?

McKinley Brown:

Yes. My highest rank that I achieved was sergeant.

Bob Mathes:

Okay, thank you. To begin, Mr. Brown, can you tell us how you joined the army, how you came to join the army?

McKinley Brown:

Yes, I can. I was 21 years old, it was the year of 1941, February 16th. I went to the board, the draft board, and signed because at that time that was the draft age, 21, and they called me for service in October, and on the 16th day of October I was drafted into the U.S. Army.

Bob Mathes:

Where were you living at the time?

McKinley Brown:

I was living in Chicago, 3319, at that time, South Park. Now it's King Drive.

Bob Mathes:

You were drafted in the army based on what you've described then in October 1941; correct?

McKinley Brown:

That is correct.

Bob Mathes:

Do you recall your first days in the service?

McKinley Brown:

Certainly, I recall. My first day I was shaken up because I didn't know what was coming and I didn't know where I was going or what I was in for, having never been away from home, and I don't know anybody, just only the people that was around me, we met and talked certain conversations, and afterwards we got acquainted to be friends, some of us. But certainly I remember my first day. I was scared. I was shook. {Laughter}.

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Bob Mathes:

So that's what it felt like.

McKinley Brown:

Yes.

Bob Mathes:

Tell me some about your boot camp and first early training experiences in the army.

McKinley Brown:

Well, my early training, I went to take my 13 weeks at that time for training in Fort Eustis, Virginia, and that was anti-aircraft outfit that I was with. The 40-millimeter ?Bofers?, it was called, and my first entrance in this camp, we got off the train and here was a sergeant and a corporal and PFCs coming to the train to greet us and to march us back to camp. I don't know how far it was from the train station where we got off to going back to the camp, but they marched us back, and we were afraid of the sergeant because why he had this stick, I don't know, if that was -- but he had a stick like a walking stick. He would wave the stick around, you, soldier, you, soldier, get in line, watch your step.

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. {Laughing}. But anyway, I don't know why I was so shook and so afraid, but I was for awhile, but I got over it and things were -- things shaped up pretty good for me. But that was my first day.

Bob Mathes:

Uh-huh.

McKinley Brown:

I slept late the next day. They come in, oh, this was about 4:30 or 5:00 o'clock in the morning to meet reveille. They woke me up and everybody went out and I'm staying in the bed asleep. This is my first extra duty. I didn't meet reveille. The sergeant come in and he dumped the cot over what I was sleeping on and told me to get me a -- get a shovel, and that was my first ditch that I dug, a six by six. It took me all day to dig it because the ground was hard, yeah, and that was because I didn't meet reveille.

From then on, I was there in line when reveille. . .

Bob Mathes:

Do you remember any of your -- you remember some of your instructors, obviously.

McKinley Brown:

Yes.

Bob Mathes:

Did any stand out for you?

McKinley Brown:

Oh, Sergeant Carter, and he, he stood out. He was a forthright type person, and seemingly he was interested in our training and trying to get us fit for service, and he did a very good job. He stands out in my mind. He was an older guy that -- he just stands out in my mind, that's all.

Bob Mathes:

Okay, okay. How did you get through basic?

McKinley Brown:

It was rough, but I got through it. It was -- oh, it wasn't too bad. It was all right. I enjoyed it, honestly (laughing).

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

Yes.

Bob Mathes:

What did you enjoy about it?

McKinley Brown:

The first time away from home, the first time trying to smoke, drink beer, yeah, and no one is telling you no, don't do this, except for the officers that's in charge of

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the camp, they're in charge of you, but basically your good conduct, the way that you conduct yourself, no one to tell you, and I enjoyed that.

Bob Mathes:

After basic training where did you go?

McKinley Brown:

I went to North Carolina, Wilmington, North Carolina, which is Camp Davis, and joined the 54th Coast Artillary.

Bob Mathes:

What did you do at Camp Davis?

McKinley Brown:

I was on a gun crew, the 155 millimeter. At the time that I joined the 54th they didn't have -- they had the 155, but they were from World War I. Later on we received the long Toms, they call them, 155. The bores -- the bore of the gun was much longer than the old-time 155, and would shoot farther. I think its range was -- the maximum range was 20 miles, but 15 miles effective, and that's -- that was where I trained for the gun crew.

Bob Mathes:

How long were you in training there?

McKinley Brown:

We were there for -- until -- I went in in October, we went to Fort Eustis and then I come -- until about January of '42.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

And we left and went out to California to Fort Cronkite.

Bob Mathes:

In January of '42.

McKinley Brown:

Yes.

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Bob Mathes:

Okay. And what did you do at Fort Cronkite then?

McKinley Brown:

Oh, we practiced -- we practiced out from the bay shooting at our targets.

Bob Mathes:

Where were the targets?

McKinley Brown:

The target was out in the ocean.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

We were coast artillery.

Bob Mathes:

Okay, okay, okay.

McKinley Brown:

And we fire at ships protecting the coast, we fire at enemy ships.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

But we would practice out here at Fort Cronkite.

Bob Mathes:

Okay. So at Fort Cronkite it was artillery practice?

McKinley Brown:

Yes.

Bob Mathes:

Perfecting your ability to hit targets in the water?

McKinley Brown:

Correct.

Bob Mathes:

Do you recall anything else about service at Fort Cronkite?

McKinley Brown:

No. The only service, I became injured. We were building a ball field for exercise. You have to have something some do when you're in the service, you can't lay around idle. Idle minds, they say, is the devil's workshop, so to keep us out of trouble we were made to take exercise.

You play ping-pong, baseball, football, get out and do something for a period of time. So we were building this ball field, baseball diamond, and I fell off the horror (ph) and injured myself there. After that in convalescent from that, I was given a service job in the P X, which I loved, because those coconut pies was delicious, and I enjoyed them.

But that was good duty for me until they transferred me from there, they put -- sent me out on a cadre. Cadre is a certain group of men going to train other men at some other camp, so I went to Camp Stewart, Georgia is where -- from California to do training.

Bob Mathes:

To train other men.

McKinley Brown:

Train other men. This was an anti-aircraft outfit there at Camp Stewart, Georgia, not the 155.

Bob Mathes:

Okay. So you went back -- you went to Camp Stewart after Camp Cronkite as a training -- as a training person.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, yes.

Bob Mathes:

Okay. And how long -- and what did you do there and how long were you there?

McKinley Brown:

I was a drill -- I went -- I was made corporal, and I went as a drill corporal and just training other soldiers, drilling them and going through certain exercises, and here we had the 40-millimeter ?Bofers? again, and would train them on those, and that was -- that's the anti-aircraft gun.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

And that was about the size of it, and afterwards I

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went into the supply as an assistant sergeant, and was breaking down rations, to go to the commissary, pick the rations up, break them down for our battery, just the one battery, not the whole battalion, just the one battery, and that was my job there. I don't want to go into my demotion, but that's where I also became demoted.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

And returned back to the 54th Coast Artillary.

Bob Mathes:

The 54th Coast Artillary back to California?

McKinley Brown:

Back to -- no, the 54th Coast Artillary had left California and they was in the South Pacific, New Hebrides, that's where they were, but my travel on the way to meet them, I went from Pittsburgh, California to New Caledonia, and then from New Caledonia to New Hebrides. That's where the 54th --

Bob Mathes:

I see.

McKinley Brown:

-- was there.

Bob Mathes:

Was this your first trip overseas?

McKinley Brown:

First trip.

Bob Mathes:

And when, what month and year were you first -- did you leave the United States to go overseas then? Do you recall?

McKinley Brown:

Yes, it was in the fall, September, I believe it was, when we left Pittsburgh, was in September.

Bob Mathes:

Of what year?

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McKinley Brown:

Of 1942.

Bob Mathes:

Okay. Okay. September of 1942.

McKinley Brown:

Yes.

Bob Mathes:

Okay. Less than a year after Pearl Harbor.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, yes. Basically we weren't around in these areas too long before we -- here in the United States, I'm talking.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

Just move around.

Bob Mathes:

So you arrived first in the South Pacific in the New Hebrides.

McKinley Brown:

Yes.

Bob Mathes:

Can you tell me what that was like?

McKinley Brown:

That was another training. There was no fighting going on there, another training base, firing up the guns, and just keeping sharp, and that was a good duty among the coconut trees. I think Palmolive had a -- I don't know if you call coconut trees a farm or what, but anyway, they had all this big plantation of coconut trees there.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

That's where we were, at our base in the midst of them.

Bob Mathes:

Oh.

McKinley Brown:

(Laughs).

Bob Mathes:

So a lot of that was further training.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, yes.

Bob Mathes:

How long were you there?

McKinley Brown:

Not long, maybe a couple of months, then from there we went to Bougainville. Bougainville, that's where we did our greatest fighting, shelling. We were shelling. We became -- they used us as field artillery instead of coast artillery then, on Boganville.

Bob Mathes:

What did that mean? You were shooting at inland targets?

McKinley Brown:

Yes, we were shooting -- the Japanese was dug into the hills and was all inside of the mountains, and we just shelling -- we would shell the mountains, the mountainside, whenever the observing plane would go over and they see a target for us to shell at, and they would radio back to what position and the range, and then that's what we would -- that's the area we would shell.

Bob Mathes:

What was it like for you on Boganville?

McKinley Brown:

It was not bad. I mean, I tell you, I enjoyed myself. I had big fun. Nothing at this point or any other point of my extent in the service was horrible enough for me to wish that I was home or I wish --

Bob Mathes:

What was -- what did you do that was fun or that you can recall enjoying at Bougainville?

McKinley Brown:

I enjoyed -- oh, I enjoyed playing ball, I enjoyed all the sports, playing cards, and we -- I enjoyed the beer ration every day. They give you about three beers and about three packs of cigarettes, Chelseas and Old Golds. We used them for gambling, gambling purposes, so many cigarettes, bet so many cigarettes for this. But anyway, it was enjoyable.

Our daily services wasn't required to be fighting every day and all that. We'd enjoy ourselves. Fellows would make what we call bug juice, they get this dried fruit like dried peaches or dried apples and make bug juice, we call it, put it in a -- in containers, sit it out in the jungle. All the gnats and everything swarming all over it, that's where you get the name bug juice, and that was good stuff. I enjoyed that too. I had a scar that I was carrying for a long time.

I don't see it now. It was around in here. I fell on a Spam can. I got up off my cot and boy, I don't know -- remember nothing else. I went forward and trying to catch myself, and this hand hit that open Spam can and opened it up for me.

But that was a memory that I kept for awhile. I don't know where that scar is now, it's gone, but it was there for a long time.

Bob Mathes:

For a long time.

McKinley Brown:

Many years.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

Yeah.

Bob Mathes:

So your memories of Bougainville were largely very positive.

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McKinley Brown:

Yes, yes.

Bob Mathes:

How long were you on Bougainville, now?

McKinley Brown:

Until from, oh, 1940 -- the ending of '42, I think was until -- no, '43, all of the year of 1943.

Bob Mathes:

All of 1943.

McKinley Brown:

All of 1943 was on Bougainville.

Bob Mathes:

Quite some time.

McKinley Brown:

Yes. We stayed there for a long, long time. That's where the Japs, they shelled us as well as we shelled them, they shelled us, and had I not had my helmet on when we were in the dugout, I wouldn't be here to give this interview, because that piece of shrapnel flew into the dugout and hit me up side of the head on that helmet, and I don't think one of those old-time helmets like they had in World War -- that wouldn't have saved me because it was on the side, and we had the helmets that come down --

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

-- around our --

Bob Mathes:

Over your ears.

McKinley Brown:

Over my ears, around my ears like this, yes. And that's what did it.

Bob Mathes:

What was your reaction to -- what did that feel like to get hit like that?

McKinley Brown:

Soldiers have this way of trying to be funny and make jokes about everything, and it became a joke and it was laughable, but I was scared inside, I was shaking after I get by myself, I shook inside. But before that we make a joke, here come another one, you see it, it's got a tail on it, there it goes. And you could hear those shells going through the air "poosh, poosh, poosh," and the next thing you hear it will explode. And you hold onto your helmet, hold onto your helmet, Mac. Here it comes again. Things like that, little goofy stuff.

Bob Mathes:

Were you shelled often on Bougainville?

McKinley Brown:

Oh, yes. We were shelled quite a bit, but we had only one, that I remember, one fatality.

Bob Mathes:

Just one.

McKinley Brown:

Just one. Injuries, yes, but just one fatality. He was driving the ammunition truck and the shell hit the ammunition truck and blew up, and that killed him.

Bob Mathes:

Was he somebody you knew?

McKinley Brown:

No, knew of, because he was from headquarters. I'm in A Battery.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

And he delivered ammunition to the gun crew. But he had a delivery to bring out and the shell hit him. But that's about the extent of the injuries that we had.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

Fatalities.

Bob Mathes:

Yes. You were on Bougainville for an entire year.

McKinley Brown:

Yes.

Bob Mathes:

What happened next after Bougainville?

McKinley Brown:

After Bougainville we went to Guadalcanal, and that was only the training on our way to the Philippines. We stopped at Guadalcanal and we did training there.

Bob Mathes:

You stopped at Guadalcanal for -- how long were you there?

McKinley Brown:

For about -- maybe about a couple of months.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

A month or a couple months, something of that nature. Not long.

Bob Mathes:

Do you recall approximately the month and -- month or months and year that you were on Guadalcanal, then?

McKinley Brown:

It was in -- it was in '40 -- 1944. I don't -- can't recall the month.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

But it was the year of '44, because we stayed there for a few months.

Bob Mathes:

Okay. And that -- you went from Bougainville, then, to Guadalcanal for a few months.

McKinley Brown:

Yes.

Bob Mathes:

Do you recall anything else about your time on Guadalcanal other than it was more training?

McKinley Brown:

No, just training, nothing else.

Bob Mathes:

Okay. You -- did you continue to serve with the same battery as you were from Bougainville?

McKinley Brown:

Yes. Oh, yes.

Bob Mathes:

Same men.

McKinley Brown:

Same men. I was with them once I joined them in New Hebrides, we were together all the way through until my rotation come up to come back home.

Bob Mathes:

What was that like, serving with the same men?

McKinley Brown:

You get used to it. It's like being with your family, you get used to it, and then you have your arguments and fights and you play and do all those things. Certainly there's a little clique going on, you know, certain group that sticks together, but other than that, just like a family. We enjoyed one another, yeah.

Bob Mathes:

After a couple of months on Guadalcanal what happened?

McKinley Brown:

We went to the Philippines. From Guadalcanal we went to the Philippines. First time -- first time I saw a ship break in half, this was -- the waters was -- I don't know if it was a near hurricane or a hurricane or what it was, but I know that the ocean was rough and these liberty ships --

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

-- Rosie the Riveter, and the ship was come up on a wave and then when it comes down we saw one part of it going this way and another part going the way that it was going in the first place.

Bob Mathes:

Oh, my.

McKinley Brown:

And that was horrifying to me, because we're on one too.

Bob Mathes:

You were viewing this from another ship.

McKinley Brown:

From another ship, yes. Not the ship that I was on --

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

-- this is what we saw.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

And I don't suppose nobody wasn't -- I don't know of anybody drowning or being lost from this, but it happened.

Bob Mathes:

Yes, yes, and you saw it.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, ship break in two, liberty ship.

Bob Mathes:

And this was on your way to the Philippines?

McKinley Brown:

On the way to the Philippines, yes, yes. We got to the Philippines, we landed in -- at Subic Bay.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

That's where we landed at, and I'm trying to think of the town where we went to from Subic Bay after landing there, went to -- I don't know, not -- Olongapo or -- I don't know, I don't know where, what the name of the town that we were close to, but we didn't stay at Subic Bay is what I'm trying to get at.

Bob Mathes:

Yes, yes, yes.

McKinley Brown:

We went inland.

Bob Mathes:

So once you went inland and set up, what was your mission there in the Philippines?

McKinley Brown:

Shell, to shell inland.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

Was used as field artillery.

Bob Mathes:

Field artillery.

McKinley Brown:

Yes. We never shelled at ships other than practice.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

But that's basically, that's what we were about is to shell at the enemy ship coming --

Bob Mathes:

That was your training.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, but we were used as field artillery.

Bob Mathes:

Interesting, quite different.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, and that's what we were doing on the Philippines.

Bob Mathes:

What was the Philippines like?

McKinley Brown:

Philippines was nice. I enjoyed myself again. I had -- I guess I just make myself accustomed to being as pleasant or -- as possible.

Bob Mathes:

Sounds like you find ways to be comfortable and have some fun as well as do your work.

McKinley Brown:

I do, yes, I certainly do. No sense in being away from home and be miserable and every word you speak you -- it's negative.

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Bob Mathes:

Did you find that to be true with some people?

McKinley Brown:

Yes, oh, yes. People taking soap at some kind of -- this GI soap, take that and you foam at the mouth and you look like you are having some type of spell or whatever, and a few of them was sent home.

Bob Mathes:

That's why they would do it?

McKinley Brown:

Yes.

Bob Mathes:

To appear very sick?

McKinley Brown:

Yes, yes. They was down in the dumps, despondent.

That was their way out.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

They thought.

Bob Mathes:

Yeah. You didn't feel that way.

McKinley Brown:

Oh, no.

Bob Mathes:

No.

McKinley Brown:

Like I say, I'm having fun.

Bob Mathes:

Yes, yes.

McKinley Brown:

(Laughing). I wasn't married, I didn't have a family.

Bob Mathes:

Yes, yes, this was --

McKinley Brown:

My first time away from home and, boy, I --

Bob Mathes:

It sounds like a great adventure, in part.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, it was. To me it was.

Bob Mathes:

Yes. Did you write home?

McKinley Brown:

Sure.

Bob Mathes:

During your time?

McKinley Brown:

Yes.

Bob Mathes:

Do you remember what you'd talk about?

McKinley Brown:

Oh, I didn't talk about nothing, I just only wrote to my mother.

Bob Mathes:

Okay. Okay.

McKinley Brown:

There's nobody else to write to.

Bob Mathes:

Okay, okay.

McKinley Brown:

And hey, Mama, are you fine? Good. And only a page.

Bob Mathes:

Okay. Did -- she wrote to you also?

McKinley Brown:

Yes, oh, yes, she'd write.

Bob Mathes:

What was she concerned about? Do you remember?

McKinley Brown:

Yes. How am I feeling? Am I -- basically my health and --

Bob Mathes:

Okay, okay.

McKinley Brown:

-- and my food.

Bob Mathes:

Okay. Stuff that moms are concerned about.

McKinley Brown:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bob Mathes:

So this was good, largely good.

McKinley Brown:

Yeah, sure.

Bob Mathes:

Do you recall what period of time it was that you were actually stationed in the Philippines then, what that time period was?

McKinley Brown:

From the ending -- the ending of '40 -- of '44, it was the ending of '44, because then we went through '45. The war was over in Europe, I think it was in the spring of --

Bob Mathes:

Yes, spring of '45, that's correct.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, but not in the Philippines --

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

-- or in the South Pacific, it was still going on.

Bob Mathes:

Right, right.

McKinley Brown:

And even when I left there it was still going on with some people because they didn't know it was over then.

Bob Mathes:

Is that right?

McKinley Brown:

Oh, yes, yes. There's people up in those hills --

Bob Mathes:

They kept fighting.

McKinley Brown:

Kept fighting, sure. You wouldn't dare venture off and go up in those hills, thinking that the war was over and everybody's friendly now again, no, sir.

Bob Mathes:

So that was dangerous.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, it was, certainly. But it didn't last long after I got to the Philippines, we didn't do that -- no extensive fighting in -- shelling in the Philippines.

Bob Mathes:

Not like Bougainville.

McKinley Brown:

No. Bougainville was the island where we did our work.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

In the Philippines we were just there and disbursing -- there's a lot of people that had more points than I did, you know, older soldiers. I was in an outfit that had -- the older people was there.

Bob Mathes:

Is that right?

McKinley Brown:

Yeah. Some of them come up with Texas and they was in the service, they was volunteers.

Bob Mathes:

I see.

McKinley Brown:

Yeah.

Bob Mathes:

So how did the points work?

McKinley Brown:

The points was your time in the service and your time in the States and your time that you spent overseas.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

And they would add them up some type of way, I don't know, and come up with a figure. But I had 76 points when I left. That got me out of there, 76. There was people there with 90 points and 80 and 90.

Bob Mathes:

Did the points mean that you could go home sooner?

McKinley Brown:

Yes.

Bob Mathes:

I see.

McKinley Brown:

The more points you had, the sooner you'd go home.

Bob Mathes:

I got you, okay.

McKinley Brown:

And there's so many was disbursed with a certain amount of points.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

And then later on maybe about a month or so later there's another group with a certain amount of points.

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Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

And they would go.

Bob Mathes:

Okay, okay. So that --

McKinley Brown:

And in the meantime while I was waiting, I was taken off the gun crew and had service in the medics, did the rest of my service in the medics and there -- this was all in the Philippines, and my service in the medics was -- the experience that I got was good. First aid, and I remember a little kid was hooked by a caribou. A caribou is like a deer, he looks like a deer but it's not.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

Well, anyway, he's of the family, I guess.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

But in the Philippines they use them for working purposes.

Bob Mathes:

To help plow the fields?

McKinley Brown:

Yes, to plow, yes, and all, to carry firewood and things of that nature. But he was hooked by this caribou and -- right in this leg, his thigh was open, and this was on a Saturday and I was on duty, and this was my first operation (laughing).

Bob Mathes:

Oh.

McKinley Brown:

I sewed him up and bandaged him up and his mother was so happy and she --

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

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McKinley Brown:

-- oh, yes, and he would come by periodically from then on.

Bob Mathes:

To see you.

McKinley Brown:

-- to see me, yes.

Bob Mathes:

That's wonderful.

McKinley Brown:

Can't think of his name. Tommy or Johnny, I don't know.

Bob Mathes:

Little Filipino boy.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, yes, I don't know, but nice kid.

Bob Mathes:

How long did you have medic duty?

McKinley Brown:

Well, I don't know when I --

END OF SIDE ONE, TAPE ONE; BEGIN SIDE TWO, TAPE ONE).

Bob Mathes:

-- left to come home in December, were you doing mostly medical care with Filipino civilians? Who were you treating?

McKinley Brown:

No, it was soldiers, the people of the -- your own battery.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

Yes. But we would service some of the people around if they -- if they needed service.

Bob Mathes:

Okay. Okay.

McKinley Brown:

And in this case this little kid needed it.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

And I don't know where the doctor was, but he wasn't in camp. I think he was probably gone out on a pass or gone out someplace, might have been gone to Manila.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

Because we would go up to Manila. Manila was about a hundred and some miles from this camp.

Bob Mathes:

Quite a ways.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, yes. We would go up there on the weekend to pick up supplies, medical supplies.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

From Manila.

Bob Mathes:

How would you get there? By truck?

McKinley Brown:

Well, you could take a recon -- that's like a car --

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

-- or a Jeep.

Bob Mathes:

I see.

McKinley Brown:

And go just for you, just for medical supplies.

Bob Mathes:

I see.

McKinley Brown:

And I liked that duty because, there again, there was big fun in Manila.

Bob Mathes:

So you could have fun besides just picking up supplies.

McKinley Brown:

Sure, you stay over the weekend.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

You come back, be back for Monday morning reveille.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

Yeah, ooh, my God. You jump at a chance to go.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

Yeah. I remember going there and on one weekend and we saw prison camp where they held the POWs, and --

Bob Mathes:

Japanese POWs?

McKinley Brown:

Yes, showed where they was working, how they were worked, and they used those people to work around in the mess halls and I wondered about that, why would they do it when they were enemy, weren't they afraid that they might try and do something to the food or whatever. But they -- I guess nothing ever happened, because I never heard of anything --

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

-- happening like that.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

But --

Bob Mathes:

It seemed kind of --

McKinley Brown:

-- I thought within myself --

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

-- that that was taking a big chance.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

Yeah.

Bob Mathes:

So your time off the post, off your camp, was fun and also you observed some things and learned some things about the war --

McKinley Brown:

Yes.

Bob Mathes:

-- that you wouldn't have seen otherwise.

McKinley Brown:

Yes. Yes, sir.

Bob Mathes:

Were there lots of other GIs in Manila at the time that you would go into the city also?

McKinley Brown:

Yes, yes. There was plenty of them, sailors, mostly, and they would -- had a big hall. When I was there this time there was a person, he's a Filipino, but he was portraying himself like Cab Callaway, and that was at this dance that I went to in this great, huge hall. And he was good.

Bob Mathes:

Was he?

McKinley Brown:

Oh, yes, yes. He clowned just like him. But I enjoyed that.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

And they have -- I could never keep a watch or a ring. I go into the washroom to wash my hands and the ring, I take the ring off to keep it from going down the drain and I walk off and leave it. You go back and it's not there.

Bob Mathes:

Oh.

McKinley Brown:

But they had this gold that most of the soldiers, ah, they raved about this gold, Phillipine Gold, it was great. But it was cheap, cheap, I'm talking about what we paid for it.

Bob Mathes:

Yeah.

McKinley Brown:

Cheap, not that the gold was cheap itself.

28

Bob Mathes:

Yes, right.

McKinley Brown:

But what we paid for it. And I often wish that I had some of it now {laughing}.

Bob Mathes:

It was a bargain.

McKinley Brown:

Yeah, yes, yes. You just don't have that foresight, some of us, to see.

Bob Mathes:

You were young.

McKinley Brown:

Right. I got plenty of time. I'll be back to get some.

Bob Mathes:

{Laughing}. Yes.

McKinley Brown:

Yeah.

Bob Mathes:

So you had opportunity to go to Manila, you had opportunity to be in a medic role to help your particular battery, also it sounds like occasionally helped civilians who would be injured in some way, if you had the duty.

McKinley Brown:

Uh-huh, yes.

Bob Mathes:

And you say you pretty much did this work until you went home?

McKinley Brown:

I did, yes.

Bob Mathes:

Okay. How did you hear that you'd be going home? How did that work?

McKinley Brown:

They post it on the bulletin board.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

Yeah, they'd tell you the list and you'd see, at headquarters, you go by your battery headquarters, I mean, not -- and see if your name is on the board.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

Yeah. But it's far from being a secret.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

And when it's time to go home, there's --

Bob Mathes:

Yeah, you're well aware.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, my Lord.

Bob Mathes:

What was it like going home from the Philippines?

How did you get there and how long did it take?

McKinley Brown:

It took 18 days on the ocean.

Bob Mathes:

Eighteen days.

McKinley Brown:

Out in the ocean. We went nonstop on this ship, I don't know, but it took 18 days to go -- come back to the States.

Bob Mathes:

How many other GIs were you traveling with coming home?

McKinley Brown:

Oh, this was a very huge ship. It wasn't a liberty ship, but it wasn't the Queen Mary either, but it was just -- it had the staterooms and all, and it was full of servicemen going back home. Yes, they get a load.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

It's all classes of us, from sailors to soldiers, marines.

Bob Mathes:

Was the ship integrated coming home?

McKinley Brown:

Yes, it was.

30

Bob Mathes:

Were sleeping quarters integrated also?

McKinley Brown:

No.

Bob Mathes:

No? How did that work?

McKinley Brown:

Well, you -- whoever you become acquainted with, if you want to be in the same stateroom together or whatever, you can, or you just pick your room. If it's got people in it and it's crowded, then you find you another one. But that's basically the way we did it.

Bob Mathes:

Okay. But black soldiers were expected to be with black soldiers --

McKinley Brown:

Right, right, right.

Bob Mathes:

-- and white soldiers with white soldiers?

McKinley Brown:

Right, absolutely.

Bob Mathes:

That was absolute.

McKinley Brown:

Absolute, uh-huh, yeah.

Bob Mathes:

Were the accommodations and the food the same for different --

McKinley Brown:

Oh, yes.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

We went to the mess halls together, we all went to mess together, everybody.

Bob Mathes:

So the mess was integrated.

McKinley Brown:

Yes.

Bob Mathes:

It was just the sleeping rooms were segregated.

McKinley Brown:

Uh-huh, yep.

31

Bob Mathes:

Eighteen days.

McKinley Brown:

Eighteen days on the ocean.

Bob Mathes:

How did that seem?

McKinley Brown:

And that was sort of frightening, because you know how word gets around when danger is around, they're talking about mines being -- loose mines floating.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

And there were.

Bob Mathes:

Okay. Okay.

McKinley Brown:

And this ship was not in a convoy, it was out there by itself.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

And --

Bob Mathes:

There was concern, then.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, there was. Certain word gets around where, oh, there's a mine out there, there's a mine. We saw it earlier this morning. Yeah, this is a mine field we're going through. Well, you look but you don't see nothing.

Bob Mathes:

Yeah.

McKinley Brown:

But, now --

Bob Mathes:

You're still concerned.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, you're very concerned.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

Because I think on those mines, you only see those little bobbers bobbing up and down, but not the big heavy stuff that's down under the water.

Bob Mathes:

Yes, yes. Eighteen days. Where did you -- where did you come into port?

McKinley Brown:

I'm trying to think now which was -- did we land at Pittsburgh or did we land at -- I can't remember.

Bob Mathes:

California?

McKinley Brown:

Yeah, it was California.

Bob Mathes:

Bay Area somewhere?

McKinley Brown:

We come back, yes.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, it was California. I'm thinking now the camp was Stoneman, I believe, where we -- Camp Stoneman.

Bob Mathes:

Camp Stoneman.

McKinley Brown:

Yes. What area that's around, I don't know.

Bob Mathes:

Okay, okay. What happened for you at Camp Stoneman once you left the ship?

McKinley Brown:

We come into Stoneman and was given our quarters waiting to be shipped or disbursed to go to the nearest base to our home. We -- this is where you shared all your belongings.

Bob Mathes:

This is where you gave up your helmet?

McKinley Brown:

Yeah, you give up your helmet, your shoes, only what you're wearing, what you're going to wear, and everything.

Bob Mathes:

Do you remember how that felt?

McKinley Brown:

It felt good.

33

Bob Mathes:

Yeah?

McKinley Brown:

Yes, it did.

Bob Mathes:

Okay. It felt good.

McKinley Brown:

You didn't have to worry about that luggage that you had to carry on your bag everywhere you go.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

You've got the barracks bag and it's loaded with everything, everything you need, from your blankets and all your different uniforms, your rifle, everything, everything you got except the cot.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

The cot that you sleep on. But everything else, you got it on your back.

Bob Mathes:

So you turn that in.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, yes.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

Turn it all in. You don't need the mess kit no more, that mess gear, because you're going to eat at the mess halls.

Bob Mathes:

So did you -- were you actually discharged from that point?

McKinley Brown:

No. I was discharged from Custer, was Custer or Grant. I was inducted. I was inducted either at Grant or discharged at Grant. But anyway, the two --

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

-- the two -- the two camps, Camp Grant or Custer.

Bob Mathes:

Was this in California again?

McKinley Brown:

No, no. It's in -- Camp Grant, Michigan.

Bob Mathes:

Oh, okay. So you came back from California to Camp Grant.

McKinley Brown:

To Camp Grant, yes, and then from there I come home.

Bob Mathes:

I see.

McKinley Brown:

That's where I actually was discharged at.

Bob Mathes:

I got you, I got you.

McKinley Brown:

At Grant.

Bob Mathes:

So you traveled from California to Michigan, discharged, and then you came back to Chicago.

McKinley Brown:

Absolutely.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

Yes.

Bob Mathes:

And you were a civilian then, of course.

McKinley Brown:

Right, yep. But I still had any uniform, the one uniform that I had, they let me have.

Bob Mathes:

They let you have one uniform.

McKinley Brown:

One uniform. You can't go home naked.

Bob Mathes:

That's true, that's true. So how was it getting home, coming home?

McKinley Brown:

It was great. I got -- I come home, it was about Christmastime, during the Christmas season. It was really great. But for some reason I didn't go home. I stayed --now, my home wasn't bad. I enjoyed my home life, no hatred or meanness, but I just felt like I just wanted to -- I got me a hotel room and I stayed until after Christmas. I didn't know how my mother and dad was going to take it when I got home, you know, crying and going on and all this calling people around. I didn't want that.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

So I stayed away.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

And to this day I don't regret it, either.

Bob Mathes:

Yeah.

McKinley Brown:

I just got me a hotel room, stayed out, had more fun for a couple of days --

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

-- and then I went home.

Bob Mathes:

You kind of needed that time on your own?

McKinley Brown:

Yes, I felt so.

Bob Mathes:

So what happened then? So you're home, you're out of the service.

McKinley Brown:

Yes.

Bob Mathes:

Back in Chicago.

McKinley Brown:

Yes.

Bob Mathes:

What did you do?

McKinley Brown:

I stayed home, went looking for a job, worked at a print shop there for awhile, and then I got a job at the stockyards. The year of 1946 I must have had at least five different jobs. I tried working for the print shop where I used to go in for about four hours a day or something like this, but that wasn't enough for me. I got a job at the packing company out of the stockyards, either Swift or Armour, one of those. I worked for both of them at the time, but it was Swift or Armour. But you only work so long and they lay you off. You know, you're not a permanent person there, you just -- and it's during the busy season.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

So they need extra people.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

So you work for maybe about a month and they lay you off. So I was laid off and I now go and find this job on 22nd and Troup or Carpenter or someplace in that area, where Burton and Dixie, Burton and Dixie was the place that made beddings and mattresses and car seats and --

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

That was the most trying thing. You stand on one foot for awhile and then you switch to the other foot and you're waiting for this coffee break, and you go for coffee, you come back and you start all over again of just packing these car cushions and taking it from here and stacking it over here and going -- I can't be contained like that too --I find myself, I'm going to work and I just keep riding. This is -- no, no.

McKinley Brown:

This isn't for you.

McKinley Brown:

No, I've got to do something -- you could hear the floor creaking under your feet, just -- and you says no. And I'm a young man too. I'm not a weakling. But this is the most boring thing. So I get a call back to come to the stockyards. I go in, they don't have the job where I first was working like in picnics, they call it. That's like what -- bacon and these little hams, putting them in the crates, folding the crate up like this. They didn't have that job for me. I liked that job, but they didn't have that job for me no more so they put me in the basement washing the trucks or the cars that they put this meat and stuff on.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

I'm cleaning them now, washing them off. There again, I got a problem.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

I come to work, on my way to work, and I keep on riding, don't -- didn't keep that one. But I went back out there and I went to the other packing place, Swift, I think it was, and they don't have anything for me but they ask me, "Can you bone?" I says -- I'm looking at these people, they're taking their knives and they're just slicing the meat off the bone like this. I says, "Oh, sure, I can do that." That was rough. I tried boning and the people start hollering and screaming, see, because I'm holding up the line. This is an assembly line, you call it, and meat is being pushed down to the next person --

Bob Mathes:

Yes. .

McKinley Brown:

-- so that they can get some meat off the bone, and there I am, I haven't got my portion off the bone and the meat is piling up back -- I couldn't keep --

Bob Mathes:

You're too slow.

McKinley Brown:

They had to take me off of that. I was afraid I was going to cut myself. Those knives are sharp. [Laughs].

Bob Mathes:

This is dangerous work.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, it is. Yes. And I had to be taken off of that and put in the freezer.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

This stopped my tour of duty in the stockyards when they put me on this, of taking that meat off the boxcars and lugging them into the freezer. You walk into the boxcar and here's a half a cow swinging on a hook. Here's a guy, he looks like he's about twice as big as I am. He's throwing the meat on your shoulder instead of carrying the meat in himself. He'd take it off the hook, flop it on your shoulder and you go with it and you take it in, but you got to move, now. You're blocking other people if you take your time and be slow with it.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

You've got to get out and move.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

I worked there for about half a day.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

And at lunchtime I didn't go back.

Bob Mathes:

Yeah.

McKinley Brown:

And that was the end of my tour in the stockyards.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

I went back to a felt company doing something, I don't know. But what I'm getting at, finally I went to the post office. Now, this place, I was -- I worked there longer than I worked anyplace. I worked there for 15 -- 15 months, 16, 15 months, something of that nature, 15 months at the post office, and in the meantime I put my application in to go to Con Ed, Edison, and that's where I found my home.

Bob Mathes:

Finally, hm?

McKinley Brown:

Finally, best place I ever worked. Nobody bothers you. I mean, you do your job.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

And you're working outside.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

Now, that's for me.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

Outside.

Bob Mathes:

Good job.

40

McKinley Brown:

Stayed there for 37 years.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, sir.

Bob Mathes:

Took awhile, though.

McKinley Brown:

Took awhile --

Bob Mathes:

From service to good job.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, yes. Finally I retired, and here I am talking to you. {Both laughter}.

Bob Mathes:

What I'd like to know, did you make and keep any close friendships from the service?

McKinley Brown:

No, I didn't. I didn't keep any close friendships, but I have seen certain people that I was in the service with.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

Some from here and some from other parts of the country.

Bob Mathes:

How did you -- how did that happen? Reunions or by accident?

McKinley Brown:

Oh, at a club, you know.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

You bump into people.

Bob Mathes:

Okay, okay, okay. Just by being -- by socializing.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, right, right.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

Yeah.

41

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

But as of now, I don't know where any of them -- I don't know of any of them.

Bob Mathes:

Yeah.

McKinley Brown:

And that holds true even for my job. All the friends that I made, and I mean they were good people --

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

-- on this job, working for Edison, and now we're being -- we've been scattered, but now we don't -- we don't keep in contact with each other, we don't call each other, we don't do -- you know, we say we're going to do it, we go to these dinners --

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

-- and we meet up, and once a year they -- Con Ed used to give a dinner once a year for the retirees.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

And you go in and you meet your friends. So we talk this talk about, "Oh, boy, I'm going to -- give me your phone number, I'm going to call you, we're going to keep in contact," and nobody don't call nobody. It just --

Bob Mathes:

Doesn't happen?

McKinley Brown:

But we have good intentions.

Bob Mathes:

Yeah.

McKinley Brown:

It just doesn't materialize.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

42

McKinley Brown:

Yeah. Exxon has taken over now and there's a different -- no more family deals. No, it's not a family no more.

Bob Mathes:

That's kind of a loss.

McKinley Brown:

Yes. Yes, it is.

Bob Mathes:

In looking back, how do you -- what would you say -- how would you say your military experience influenced your later life?

McKinley Brown:

It influenced my later life greatly, I mean, and for the better, yes. Oh, there's -- you know, it's strange that you know a thing but you can't put your finger on what you want to say about it.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

But the influence that I received from the service, stick to a thing and work at it and do -- it's just so many -- Bobby, it's just so many little things. They seem little, but they're big when you stop to think about it, and they do -- right now, I tell my younger family, you know, they want to pride themselves in cooking.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

But they don't want to clean the dishes and wash. I says, "You can't be a cook, you can't cook unless you clean."

You have to clean. You have to clean first before you cook.

Bob Mathes:

Do the whole job.

McKinley Brown:

Yes. Oh, no -- yeah, you got to clean that pot, you got to wash -- you know, wash the dish and do -- now, now you're a good cook. Well, that come in from the service, so far as -- for me.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

And if I smoked, which I tried to smoke, but I didn't -- I didn't -- it didn't appeal to me. You finish smoking your cigarette, you break it apart, you throw the tobacco into the wind, just out like this. You do the paper like this. And you don't even see it. You don't see it around.

Bob Mathes:

No butts.

McKinley Brown:

No butts. Honestly, you look and you can't see anything.

Bob Mathes:

Yeah.

McKinley Brown:

That's from the service.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

I used to do that when I smoked.

Bob Mathes:

Okay. So you clean up after yourself.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, yes.

Bob Mathes:

It's a good thing.

McKinley Brown:

Oh, yes. Busy yourself. Now, I probably would have learned how to -- I don't know if I would in this manner or not, but I know that this was a service thing. I got it from the service, of busying yourself to keep your mind occupied.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

Because you can't sit around doing nothing and -- the mind don't stop, it just keeps -- this is what I've been told, and I believe it.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

Because it does.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

Keep working. And it's going to be -- just like your stomach, it's going to be chewing on something {laughter}, and it's usually something that is wrong for you. It's no good.

Bob Mathes:

Okay.

McKinley Brown:

Like my wife, she gets it all the time when I'd be sitting around and I get my cards and start playing Sol. All the time you playing Sol, can't you think of -- can't you do something -- and I said, "Well, there's nothing else to do."

Sol is hard to beat, {laughter}, so . . . Yeah, there's a lot of good points I got from the service. I enjoyed myself, Bob, I did. I can't complain. And I wonder why kids nowadays don't -- wouldn't want to and don't want to, that experience of going into the service, when they don't have anything else to do, nothing else to do, won't go to school, just hang around in the streets and create problems, and you go into the service, you'll be able to see some parts of the world, if you stay in there long enough. Yes. I took my grandson, we kept him -- we adopted him as our son, but he went to high school, started in Montessori and went to high school and after that I said well, we're not going to have the money for college, but I tell you, you into the service and get this -- and pull a stint in the service, you can get you an education, a higher education. He didn't much want to do it, but he did it. But he come back out and he didn't get the education, he didn't use it. But anyway, he could have. I don't know if he still can or not, but he could have. So what I'm getting at is the service has good points, very good points.

Bob Mathes:

Opportunities.

McKinley Brown:

And if people would take advantage of it --

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

-- especially the people who are poor in their life, be very useful.

Bob Mathes:

Yes.

McKinley Brown:

Yeah.

Bob Mathes:

When -- after the war when did you get married?

McKinley Brown:

I got married in '47, 1947, two years after I got out of the service. And that was my first wife. She passed, cancer of the breast, and then I got married again in 1972, and we've been together up until now, so I've had two marriages, and just a host of children, you know. Oh, my God, don't mention the grandkids {laughs}. If that was richness, I'd be a millionaire -- I'd be a billionaire.

46

Bob Mathes:

It is richness. It is richness.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, yes, yes.

Bob Mathes:

Have either of your wives asked you or have you talked to them at all in conversation about what you did in World War II?

McKinley Brown:

No, I didn't talk to my first wife at all about what I did in the war, but jokingly I talked to this one just to get under her skin.

Bob Mathes:

Is that right?

McKinley Brown:

Yeah.

Bob Mathes:

Did it work?

McKinley Brown:

You see what -- she wrote that list for me, tell him about the shrapnel that hit your helmet.

Bob Mathes:

Yes. You like to get her all excited.

McKinley Brown:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bob Mathes:

That's fun.

McKinley Brown:

It is.

Bob Mathes:

So she knows a few things.

McKinley Brown:

Oh, yeah, yeah. There you go, lying again.

Bob Mathes:

Ah.

McKinley Brown:

Cannoneer. Yeah, I was on the big gun. Says I -- the lanyard, the lanyard is like the trigger that you use on the big cannon, that you pull it. It's six -- supposed to be six feet, you got a six-foot line , but I told her, I says,

"I'd cut mine in half. I only had three foot, I'm right up on the breech. When I pull it all I do is step to the side and the recoil comes back and I rides the recoil, I rides --"[laughter].

Bob Mathes:

It's fun being a veteran; isn't it?

McKinley Brown:

Oh, yeah. Yes, it is.

Bob Mathes:

That's nice. We're running out of the 90 minutes.

If you recall, you said you didn't know if you had much to say. I think you had a lot to say. What I will do with you, I will get this transcribed and typed up and call you when that's in, and I will make a copy of these forms and I'll get you a copy of that.

McKinley Brown:

Yes.

Bob Mathes:

If there's anything else that you have at home or your wife has at home in terms of pictures or you'd like duplicated or something, be glad to do that too and we'll sign the forms for the Library of Congress and do that.

McKinley Brown:

Yes.

Bob Mathes:

I think you did a great job. I really enjoyed talking with you, because I've learned a lot about the war that I didn't know. And my dad told me a lot too when I was a kid.

McKinley Brown:

Yes, yes.

Bob Mathes:

But you've done a marvelous job.

McKinley Brown:

Thank you.

Bob Mathes:

I hope it's been okay for you.

McKinley Brown:

It's been fine, been fun too.