0001
 1               U.S. DEPARTMENT OF LABOR
 2   INFORMAL PUBLIC HEARING ON OSHA'S PROPOSED RULE
              ON GENERAL WORKING CONDITIONS
 3                IN SHIPYARD EMPLOYMENT
 4   
 5   
                        9:30 a.m.
 6                   October 22, 2008
 7              Renaissance Seattle Hotel
                    515 Madison Street
 8                 Seattle, Washington
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                KIMBERLY MIFFLIN, CCR, CSR
17              NORTHWEST COURT REPORTERS
              1415 Second Avenue, Suite 1107
18                  Seattle, WA  98101
                      (206) 623-6136
19           www.northwestcourtreporters.com
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0002
 1   DOL Administrative Law Judge:
 2                                 JUDGE JENNIFER GEE
 3   DOL Office of the Solicitor:
 4                                 SARAH SHORTALL, Project Attorney
                                   SUSAN BRINKERHOFF
 5   
     OSHA Directorate of Standards and Guidance:
 6   
                                   BILL PERRY, Deputy Director
 7   
     OSHA Office of Maritime Standards and Guidance:
 8   
                                   JOSEPH DADDURA, Director
 9                                 AMY WANGDAHL, Project Officer
                                   DANIELLE WATSON
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     OSHA Office of Regulatory Analysis:
11   
                                   PAUL BOLON, Project Economist
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     OSHA Office of Communications:
13   
                                   VENETA CHATMON, Hearing Officer
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0003
 1                            (Hearing Commenced at 9:30 a.m.)
 2             JUDGE GEE:  This is the Informal Public Hearing
 3   on OSHA's Proposed Rule on General Working Conditions in
 4   Shipyard Employment.  Today is October 22, 2008.  Our
 5   program continues today with a panel -- I'm sorry, it's
 6   not a panel.  Mr. Allen Rainsberger will be the first
 7   person to testify.  Mr. Rainsberger.
 8             MS. SHORTALL:  Your Honor, as Mr. Rainsberger
 9   gets up and ready to testify, I would like to enter a
10   couple of items into the record.
11             JUDGE GEE:  All right.
12             MS. SHORTALL:  First is Exhibit 0177, written
13   testimony from Lurilla Lee, and the second of all is
14   Exhibit 0178, the hard copy of the Power Point
15   presentation that Mr. Rainsberger will be making.
16             THE COURT:  So ordered.
17             MS. SHORTALL:  Thank you, your Honor,
18             JUDGE GEE:  Mr. Rainsberger, state your name
19   and spell your first and last name and your affiliation
20   and then you may start.
21             MR. RAINSBERGER:  My name is Allen Rainsberger.
22   The first name is A-L-L-E-N, last name is
23   R-A-I-N-S-B-E-R-G-E-R.  I'm with Foss Maritime and
24   president of the Puget Sound Shipbuilders Association.
25             JUDGE GEE:  Thank you.  You may begin.
0004
 1             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Thank you.
 2        I know that on October 3rd the group has heard a lot
 3   of folks from the aircraft carriers and some of the
 4   bigger operations as far as shipyards, and yesterday I
 5   think you got a good overview of the fishing fleet here
 6   in the Northwest, at least.
 7        Today I think the Association would like to give
 8   some testimony and some presentations to the panel on
 9   some of the small to mid-sized shipyards.  The issues
10   sometimes are vastly different.
11        And what I would like to actually do today is give
12   you a little bit of an overview, moving into those that
13   will actually be doing the individual presentations
14   through the today.
15        I, as I said, am president of Puget Sound
16   Shipbuilders Association, and the association is a group
17   of 32 different entities that meet on a quarterly basis
18   here in the Puget Sound regarding safety.  I'm also a
19   member of the American Society of Engineers.  I'm a
20   member of the Seattle Fire Code Advisory Board and a
21   member of Marine Chemist Qualification Board, and also
22   preside over the Environment Coalition of South Seattle.
23        I've got 30 years in the industry, and I worked at
24   Todd Shipyard for 28 years, 20 of those years in the
25   safety department, and I started out in the shipyards as
0005
 1   a painter.  So I know from the deck place the operations
 2   that happen in shipyards all the way up to the
 3   administrative challenges of the operation of the
 4   shipyards.
 5        Our members include a lot of folks throughout
 6   Alaska, Washington and Oregon, so it's misconceiving to
 7   say the Puget Sound Shipbuilders Association, but the
 8   association has just grown quite a bit, so we do have
 9   other shipyards outside of the Puget Sound region that
10   actively belong to the association.
11        I'm not going to read all of these different names.
12   You've got them all in front of you.  But just to give
13   you an idea, we do have a lot of small to medium-sized
14   shipyards, the largest being Todd Shipyards in Seattle,
15   which currently employs about 500 people.
16        We also have some associate members that involve the
17   insurance companies, worker's compensation carriers.  I
18   think you have all heard from Amy Duz from iWorkWise, who
19   belongs to our association as well, welding manufacturers
20   and suppliers helping us with the hexavalent chromium
21   issues that we deal with and studies of that work from
22   the University of Washington, as well as the marine
23   chemists, different safety suppliers and life-saving
24   equipment suppliers as well.  So we try to get a lot of
25   different facets of the safety representation throughout
0006
 1   our association so we feel we're pretty well rounded.
 2        The Puget Sound Shipbuilders Association itself is a
 3   nonprofit organization.  We do have a set of bylaws that
 4   actually go back to the mid 1940's when the association
 5   was formed.  We have quarterly meetings.  We actually
 6   just had a meeting on Monday, and Mr. Vonkowski from OSHA
 7   was a speaker at our meeting and he gave an overview on
 8   fire plan requirements under Subpart P.
 9        We do have daily interactions through e-mails and
10   phone calls within the members working together to assure
11   that we provide safe workplaces for all of our employees.
12   Collectively we all believe strongly that the strongest
13   resource that we have in the shipbuilding industry is the
14   employees that we have.  We take it very seriously that
15   we protect these employees.
16        We do a lot of education and training employers on
17   the safety issues.  Some of the smaller shipyards have
18   anywhere from 10 to 50 people.  They don't really have
19   the resources to have a full-time safety person per se.
20   That person may wear a lot of different hats.  So
21   sometimes it's good for them to come up to one of the
22   other shipyards that already has a program and help them
23   out too, give them the resources that they need to bring
24   forth safe work measures to their employees.
25        So the networking is really key to all of this.  We
0007
 1   try to share the information and grow from that.
 2        We do a lot of the technology presentations of new
 3   safety equipment that's available, better ways of doing
 4   things, thinking outside the box a little bit other than
 5   standard procedures that have been in place for quite
 6   some time.
 7        We do have an alliance with OSHA throughout the
 8   Puget Sound Shipbuilders Association.  OSHA does attend
 9   our meetings all the way from the area directors to the
10   regional directors to compliance officers.  Same with the
11   state act too with the DOSH folks, they have attended our
12   meetings in the past.  We do have seminars that we've
13   done.  As I mentioned, we did one on fire plans under
14   Subpart P on Monday.  We've done OSHA 300 recordkeeping.
15   It was actually an ex-OSHA employee, Linda Glasby
16   actually gave that with her 30 years of experience.
17        We're done presentations on hexavalent chromium
18   standards, the electrical standards and shipboard
19   ventilation are just some examples.  I'm sure I forgot
20   some of the other things we covered through the alliance.
21   It's been very active.  It's been beneficial for both
22   OSHA and for the Association.
23        Many shipyards in this region have closed for a
24   number of different reasons.  Just recently Fairhaven
25   Shipyard of Bellingham shut their doors on Wednesday of
0008
 1   last week, not because of safety reasons but because of
 2   labor negotiations that have been going on for some time
 3   unsuccessfully.  We've also had Duwamish Shipyards,
 4   Marco, Tacoma Boat and some of our other local shipyards
 5   that actually have closed their doors.
 6        So the industry itself is facing a lot of
 7   challenges, a lot of economic challenges, a lot of
 8   environmental challenges.  The Puget Sound region has
 9   very stringent environmental regulations such as keeping
10   our yards very clean for the environment, which actually
11   dovetails into safety issues as well because a clean yard
12   is a safer yard as well.
13        1915 also not only covers the shipyards but a lot of
14   shoreside activities as well.  Hence my question from
15   yesterday about the subcontractors that's been taken into
16   effect.  You asked for a number of percentile of
17   subcontractors that work in the industry, and I can only
18   guess at what that number is, but it is substantial.  If
19   you want me to estimate, I would say between 20 and 30
20   percent of the shipyard work is subcontracted out.  That
21   probably hasn't been factored into your numbers.
22        You did a good job earlier going out to the BLS
23   survey showing improvements.  If you go back actually,
24   the improvements are about 75 percent over the time
25   period that you went, all the way from 38 of an incident
0009
 1   rate to the current BLS standards of around nine.  So the
 2   industry itself in the last 15 years has done a lot of
 3   good things.  A lot of things have changed with
 4   technology and opportunities, and we try to capitalize on
 5   those things.
 6        The only thing I really want to say because you
 7   asked about it, heard too much about it, is on .89,
 8   Hazardous Energy for lockout/tagout.  It's a huge issue
 9   for a lot of different folks.  It's huge for aircraft
10   carriers.  It's important -- it doesn't involve just
11   electrical, it involves hydraulics and steam and other
12   things as well.  But there will be other people
13   testifying as far as the lockout/tagout hazardous energy
14   portion as well, but I just wanted to make sure you knew
15   it was on my radar screen as well.
16        The wording in the eye wash section is just an
17   example of things that would make sense to me.  If you're
18   around an acid tank or a caustic tank to have a shower
19   there, an eye wash.  The way it's worded right now, you
20   have to have an eye wash every 15 feet in the shipyard.
21   It's just not practical, and it's not feasible.
22        Snow removal language.  I'm sure the east coast
23   folks probably have some comments about that as well as
24   my brethren from Alaska who is in attendance.  Huge
25   challenge for the way it's worded in snow removal.  I
0010
 1   think every yard does a great job of doing what they can
 2   do to get all the snow up.  To get every flake of snow up
 3   is virtually impossible.
 4        AED's, challenges there.  I think it's a great thing
 5   here in the city of Seattle, largest per capita of CPR
 6   folks in the nation.  In my facility we do have AED's,
 7   and we actually have them on our tug boats as well.
 8   Challenge would be what if someone doesn't want to use
 9   it, what do you do.
10        Toilet facilities, I think that needs to be worked
11   out a little bit too.  I know what the intent is or the
12   way the language is.  It has some work that needs to be
13   done.
14        Really the solution that I see is to allow our
15   association to work with some of the other associations
16   to get the wording right, come up with something that's
17   doable, feasible and practical for all our employees, to
18   get a good product that keeps all of our workers safe.
19   That's really the goal for me personally and for the
20   members of the Puget Sound Shipbuilders Association.
21        That's basically all I have, Judge.
22             JUDGE GEE:  Thank you.  Is there anybody in the
23   audience who would like to ask questions?
24             MS. SHORTALL:  Yes, your Honor.  We have
25   questions.  We'd like to start with Mr. Daddura.
0011
 1             JUDGE GEE:  We have a question from the
 2   audience.
 3             MS. SHORTALL:  Excuse me.
 4             JUDGE GEE:  Please identify yourself, spell
 5   your name and state your affiliation.
 6             MR. SCULLY:  Yes.  My name is Andrew Scully,
 7   and I'm president of the Synergy Group.  We're a safety,
 8   health and environment consulting group.
 9             MS. SHORTALL:  Your Honor, this person has not
10   filed, to my understanding, a notice of intention to
11   appear here today.  Therefore, discussions would not be
12   allowed.
13             MR. SCULLY:  I can't ask a question?
14             MS. SHORTALL:  No.  You have to file a notice
15   of intention to appear.
16        However, Your Honor, it is within your discretion if
17   he has comments he wants to make, at the end of the day,
18   to allow him up to 10 minutes to make any comments he
19   wants.
20             JUDGE GEE:  Well --
21             MR. SCULLY:  Did I misunderstand you asked for
22   questions?  I just wanted to ask a question of Mr.
23   Rainsberger.
24             MS. SHORTALL:  We have a procedure that
25   requires that any person who wanted to participate in the
0012
 1   rule file a notice of intention to appear, and every
 2   person -- this was a legal document, placed in the
 3   Federal Register on OSHA's web page.  Any person who was
 4   interested was able to file for either the purpose of
 5   testifying or asking questions.
 6        However, we do understand every once in a while
 7   there is someone who doesn't get the word, and for those
 8   persons if time permits at the end of the hearing, we do
 9   allow for them to have up to 10 minutes to have their
10   say.
11             MR. SCULLY:  Okay.  Well, I didn't get the
12   notice of the proposed rulemaking, but I did find out
13   later about it and thought I might have an input on a
14   question.
15             JUDGE GEE:  You'll be able to do that at the
16   end of the day.
17             MR. SCULLY:  I won't be able to because I won't
18   be here at the end of the day, but perhaps I can submit a
19   written comment to the panel later.  Is that possible?
20             MS. SHORTALL:  At this point the participation
21   is limited to those persons who filed a notice of
22   intention to appear.  If you have an organization that
23   you're working through who has filed a notice, you can
24   certainly could give your comment or question to them.
25             JUDGE GEE:  Thank you.  I'm sorry about that.
0013
 1             MS. SHORTALL:  We have questions and we will
 2   start with Mr. Daddura.
 3             MR. DADDURA:  Good morning, Allen.
 4             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Good morning.
 5             MR. DADDURA:  Just a couple of questions.
 6   You're representing an organization currently at this
 7   meeting; is that correct?
 8             MR. RAINSBERGER:  I'm representing the Puget
 9   Sound Shipbuilders Association and my employer, Foss
10   Maritime.
11             MR. DADDURA:  Puget Sound Association, how many
12   employees do they have roughly?
13             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Roughly about 2,500.
14             MR. DADDURA:  You have one yard, one location
15   in your company?
16             MR. RAINSBERGER:  We have two yards actually.
17   We have a yard in Seattle and a yard in Rainier, Oregon.
18             MR. DADDURA:  How many employees in each yard?
19             MR. RAINSBERGER:  We have 105 in Seattle and 29
20   in Oregon.
21             MR. DADDURA:  Being a safety and health
22   professional as you are, injury rates for both of your
23   yards, and I guess your association also, I understand.
24   Let's talk about your yards, first in Seattle.  Do you
25   track injury rates?
0014
 1             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Absolutely.
 2             MR. DADDURA:  Can you tell us what type of
 3   major injuries and number of injuries you're having
 4   currently.
 5             MR. RAINSBERGER:  The major injuries we have
 6   are sprains and strains.
 7             MR. DADDURA:  Okay.
 8             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Our incident rate is
 9   approximately at 8.9 right now, total loss time of about
10   3.
11             MR. DADDURA:  What about your small yard in
12   Oregon?
13             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Last year they had no
14   injuries at all.  They had one reportable injury this
15   year.
16             MR. DADDURA:  Association, do you have those
17   numbers?
18             MR. RAINSBERGER:  We have done some
19   benchmarking in the past, and historically our numbers
20   have been very comparable to the BLS numbers.
21             MR. DADDURA:  Would you please explain a little
22   bit more about the association, when it was started, and
23   is it all just shipyards involved or is it other people?
24             MR. RAINSBERGER:  It's maritime activities,
25   it's not just shipyards.  We do have people from the
0015
 1   fishing fleet.  We have people from shipyard engineering
 2   firms, shipyards themselves.  We actually have an
 3   environmental attorney.  We have other safety
 4   professionals throughout the worker's compensation
 5   carriers with Sea Bright and Alaskan insurance, safety
 6   vendors.
 7        So it's not just shipyards.  Everyone who has a
 8   maritime interest is invited to join the association.
 9             MR. DADDURA:  Thank you.
10        Let's move on to the standard now.  When a ship
11   comes in regardless of the size, how do you control the
12   amount of hoses and lines and equipment and walkways?
13             MR. RAINSBERGER:  We use a lead management
14   system where we use what's called Christmas trees and
15   hangers.  Christmas trees is basically a stanchion that
16   goes up.  It's has hooks that goes off the side and you
17   elevate the leads up off the deck, have them up away from
18   the aisleways and the walkways, as well as what we call S
19   hooks that actually go into the overhead and have a hook
20   that comes in an S shape where you actually put lines up
21   with as well.
22        Those lines, high steam lines and things you can't
23   put up in the overhead for fear of causing more damage
24   than it would, we actually put barriers over them so that
25   they're not a tripping hazard.
0016
 1             MR. DADDURA:  Barriers meaning like a ramp or
 2   crossover?
 3             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Correct.
 4             MR. DADDURA:  So you establish walkways?
 5             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Yes.
 6             MR. DADDURA:  What's the difference between a
 7   walkway and the work area or work surface, working
 8   surface?
 9             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Oh, a working surface to me
10   basically would be an area where the mechanic would
11   actually be stationed for a period of time doing a
12   designated work task, where a walkway would be an area
13   where the thoroughfare would be going through, people
14   pass through going from one area of the vessel to another
15   area.
16             MR. DADDURA:  The working surface, work area,
17   are the lines placed in these hooks in the overhead and
18   things of that nature also?
19             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Correct.
20             MR. DADDURA:  So new lines on every deck?
21             MR. RAINSBERGER:  I wouldn't say every.  The
22   shipbuilding industry is ever changing.  Every 15 minutes
23   things change, the body positioning, parts of the
24   components of the ship, so there is a constant need to
25   evaluate workplace and move things again.  So I wouldn't
0017
 1   say there is never anything lying on the deck.  That
 2   wouldn't be a correct assumption, Mr. Daddura.
 3             MR. DADDURA:  What about material or equipment;
 4   is that placed on the deck or is that placed in overhead
 5   also?
 6             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Material depending on the
 7   size would be brought in either by crane or by handtruck
 8   or by a person actually carrying something in that was of
 9   lighter weight.  The intention of the industry is to make
10   sure the equipment gets into place as soon as possible,
11   to get any dunnage that was left over such as cardboard
12   or crating off the vessel expeditiously and then let them
13   do their production work to put that system in place.
14             MR. DADDURA:  So you're saying there's never
15   material laying on the deck in a work area?
16             MR. RAINSBERGER:  There would be for a period
17   of time until you put the material up to where it's going
18   to be.  Not everything lays on the ship.  There's a lot
19   of things in the overhead and on the bulkhead, so it's
20   got to be on the deck for a certain period of time until
21   you can move it into place and put it in.
22             MR. DADDURA:  But you only bring on the
23   material that you use for that ship, that employee?
24             MR. RAINSBERGER:  That is definitely the goal,
25   yes.
0018
 1             MR. DADDURA:  Is that working?
 2             MR. RAINSBERGER:  It works well.
 3             MR. DADDURA:  Utilities.  Let me go back.
 4   Contractors, how do you control contractors bringing on
 5   their equipment, lines, hoses and things of that nature?
 6             MR. RAINSBERGER:  We make sure they coordinate
 7   through our superintendents and our supervision.  Then we
 8   use our crane service for a heavy lift.
 9        For the materials they bring on themselves, we have
10   safety observations that go on on a daily basis to make
11   sure the subcontractors are following our same
12   procedures.
13             MR. DADDURA:  If you find a violation, what
14   happens?
15             MR. RAINSBERGER:  We'll sit down and talk with
16   them and explain the way the procedure is supposed to
17   work.
18             MR. DADDURA:  Thank you.
19        Utilities.  What procedures does Foss have?  In most
20   PSSA shipyards that hook up and steam to the vessels;
21   what procedure is there?
22             MR. RAINSBERGER:  There's temporary services
23   that come off utilities that involve steam, water,
24   sewage, electrical and such that is actually piped and
25   plumbed from pier side up to the vessel.
0019
 1             MR. DADDURA:  And your steam, it a high
 2   pressure steam?
 3             MR. RAINSBERGER:  We don't use a lot of steam.
 4   There's very little use for steam in most of our shipyard
 5   applications.
 6             MR. DADDURA:  When you do use steam, do you
 7   provide a relief valve and gauge?
 8             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Yes.
 9             MR. DADDURA:  Where do you position the relief
10   valve, next to the gauge?
11             MR. RAINSBERGER:  It's closer to the pier side
12   than it is to the vessel.
13        Most shipyards are unionized, and the plumbers have
14   the jurisdiction on setting those up, so they have that
15   expertise, the journeymen who actually set those systems
16   up.
17             MR. DADDURA:  Is it near walkways or access?
18             MR. RAINSBERGER:  No, it would be away from the
19   access to the vessel.
20             MR. DADDURA:  Thank you.
21        Let's talk about work you could find in isolated
22   spaces.  I'm sure there is occasion or is there occasion
23   where your employees are assigned tasks in work locations
24   that are not normally with other workers involved nearby,
25   second shift and things.  How do you provide safety for
0020
 1   them or how do you check on them to make sure nothing has
 2   happened, they didn't slip or fall or become injured?
 3             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Well, supervision has to do
 4   frequent checks on the employees, and in our operations
 5   we make sure it's at least hourly.
 6        The employees also have means such as whistles,
 7   two-way radios, other ways to alert someone that it's a
 8   situation that takes place on the back ships.
 9        We have shipyard competent people who actually roam
10   the jobs to make sure that areas remain safe.  There is a
11   number of means to address that situation.
12             MR. DADDURA:  The maintenance people for your
13   shipyards, they work all shifts, correct?
14             MR. RAINSBERGER:  We probably just work days
15   and swing shift.
16             MR. DADDURA:  Do they have radio
17   communications?
18             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Yes.
19             MR. DADDURA:  If they are down there by
20   themselves, working in the pump rooms and things of that
21   nature?
22             MR. RAINSBERGER:  They do have radios, yes.
23             MR. DADDURA:  Let's move on to lighting.  Does
24   your yard measure the lighting for employees to walk and
25   work?  I'm speaking of lumens, foot-candles, the old
0021
 1   terminology is foot-candles.
 2             MR. RAINSBERGER:  There's not a formalized
 3   process on measurement, no.
 4             MR. DADDURA:  Have you ever done a check on the
 5   lighting?
 6             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Years ago, I did, yes.
 7             MR. DADDURA:  Where was that at?
 8             MR. RAINSBERGER:  It was at Todd Shipyards.
 9             MR. DADDURA:  Was it the parking lot, was it
10   the shipyard, the pier?
11             MR. RAINSBERGER:  It was actually the buildings
12   and the facility.  And we did some on one of the native
13   vessels that was in for repair at the time.
14             MR. DADDURA:  Do you find that the vessel
15   lighting is adequate or inadequate where you have to
16   supplement temporary lights to the existing lighting on
17   the vessel?
18             MR. RAINSBERGER:  In general the ship's
19   lighting is sufficient.  The exception may be if you are
20   down in a confined space where you would have to have
21   temporary lighting to supplement anything else.
22             MR. DADDURA:  Do you measure that lighting?
23             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Not in lumens or anything.
24   The measurement is basically a standard for how the
25   electricians set up their lighting.  No. 1, it would have
0022
 1   to be explosion proof if it's in a confined space; No. 2,
 2   there is a number of lights and stringers that actually
 3   go on.  They tend to actually light those up even greater
 4   than they were if you were inside the ship.
 5             MR. DADDURA:  What about the employee working
 6   in the corner or on a flag somewhere where lighting is
 7   not very adequate, and he has to perform some welding or
 8   fitting or burning or something like that.  How do you
 9   supplement the lighting for that?
10             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Some people use a strap-on
11   light on their hard hat, flashlights.  They'll bring the
12   screen closer to their work site actually, essentially
13   improves ventilation as well.
14             MR. DADDURA:  Do you have a problem with power
15   going out and lighting going out and people are trapped
16   into the tanks and spaces?
17             MR. RAINSBERGER:  It's very rare.
18             MR. DADDURA:  Is there a requirement for your
19   employees to carry a handheld flashlight with them?
20             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Yes.
21             MR. DADDURA:  At all times?
22             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Yes.
23             MR. DADDURA:  Sanitation.  Speaking for your
24   shipyard -- I don't want you to speak for all the
25   association -- do you have enough sewer fixed toilets to
0023
 1   handle your population?  I mean, is your population
 2   stable, work population stable?
 3             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Fairly stable, yes.
 4             MR. DADDURA:  What it's, 100?
 5             MR. RAINSBERGER:  We have a 105.  We'll dip
 6   down to 95 or ramp up to 115, so it's fairly consistent.
 7             MR. DADDURA:  Do you use portable toilets?
 8             MR. RAINSBERGER:  There are some available out
 9   on the piers that are away from the main facility where
10   the majority of the toilets are.
11             MR. DADDURA:  Are you allowed to use the ships
12   toilets at any time?
13             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Depending on the customer.  A
14   lot of times you can use the system if everything is
15   plumbed up.  If the plumbing is being worked on or
16   something or is tagged out, then you're not allowed to
17   use the facility.  So it just depends on the nature of
18   the repairs being taken care of.
19             MR. DADDURA:  When you use the term "plumbed
20   up," do you mean secured?
21             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Yes.
22             MR. DADDURA:  Thank you.
23        Do you only do work in your shipyard, your
24   geographical location of your shipyard?  Do you ever do
25   work outside of the shipyard for customers?
0024
 1             MR. RAINSBERGER:  At Foss Maritime we will do
 2   very rare occasions outside of our facility.  But other
 3   shipyards probably do work outside of their facilities,
 4   yes.
 5             MR. DADDURA:  Do you know about the facilities
 6   there; I mean, if they're downtown Seattle at a pier, are
 7   there facilities available on that pier for the
 8   employees?
 9             MR. RAINSBERGER:  The ferry dock right in
10   Coleman is an example of when they do work on the ferry,
11   there is toilet facilities right there and everything
12   they want is right there.
13             MR. DADDURA:  I'm assuming there's hand washing
14   facilities there also?
15             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Sure.
16             MR. DADDURA:  Have you ever used hand washing
17   facilities for portable toilets?
18             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Yes.
19             MR. DADDURA:  Lockout/tagout, energy control.
20   How many shops do you have in your shipyard?
21             MR. RAINSBERGER:  We actually have 11 different
22   unions that comprise I believe 12 shops.
23             MR. DADDURA:  Physical shops, buildings?
24             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Well, it's two large
25   buildings and six buildings in each shop, I believe.
0025
 1             MR. DADDURA:  What form of lock out/tag out do
 2   you use for maintenance of those buildings or your cranes
 3   or your mobile equipment?
 4             MR. RAINSBERGER:  They use locks, tags, hasps,
 5   clasps, the energized systems, take away the wires and
 6   fuses.  Everyone has been trained.  There are effective
 7   employees, those who are actually authorized to do
 8   lockout/tag out.  We don't have any problems with that.
 9             MR. DADDURA:  Is all your equipment lockable?
10             MR. RAINSBERGER:  No.
11             MR. DADDURA:  Is there plans to replace that
12   equipment, the unlockable equipment?
13             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Probably not in my working
14   career.
15             MR. DADDURA:  Okay, that's an honest answer.
16        Interesting you said about pulling a lead or
17   disconnecting or pulling a fuse.  Is that done routinely
18   in the shipyard maintenance portion of it?
19             MR. RAINSBERGER:  A large percent of the time
20   that would be one of the methods used or supplemental
21   method as well, just to eliminate the hazard altogether
22   so it's not an issue for anyone else.
23             MR. DADDURA:  How about your crane maintenance.
24   How do you ensure that the mechanic working on the crane
25   is shut down, not operable?
0026
 1             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Pretty much going through the
 2   same process, make sure they bleed out all the energy
 3   after they've done the lockout/tagout procedures.  I
 4   think Richard McKenzie, who I believe speaks after me, is
 5   actually a crane expert with maintenance and has
 6   performed the last ten or 12 of his 13 years of his
 7   career doing crane maintenance.  He might be the best
 8   person to answer that question.
 9             MR. DADDURA:  Okay.  Let's move on board
10   vessels.  Do you have routine customers who bring vessels
11   back each time that you're familiar with?
12             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Yes, and in my situation we
13   work on a lot of our own fleet.
14             MR. DADDURA:  What engine control procedure do
15   you have working on vessels?
16             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Actually, each one of our
17   vessels has a kit, a lockout/tagout kit that has all the
18   different locks, tags, different types of hasps, other
19   types of barriers for piping systems and such particular
20   to that vessel as well as a log.  Everyone has been
21   through a training protocol that's been done locally
22   within the industries and received training.
23             MR. DADDURA:  What type of vessels do you
24   normally work on?
25             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Tug boats, barges and small
0027
 1   fishing boats.
 2             MR. DADDURA:  Any big processors or anything
 3   like that?
 4             MR. RAINSBERGER:  No.
 5             MR. DADDURA:  Do any of these vessels have
 6   emergency generators on them?
 7             MR. RAINSBERGER:  I believe some vessels do
 8   have emergency generators, yes.
 9             MR. DADDURA:  Do you secure that system when a
10   ship comes in?
11             MR. RAINSBERGER:  I'm not really familiar with
12   what the requirements are for that.
13             MR. DADDURA:  When it gets down to the
14   hydraulic system and the valves, what procedures do you
15   use, just the lockbox that we saw yesterday with the
16   plastic cap on top of the valve handle that locks?
17             MR. RAINSBERGER:  I've seen chains with
18   different locks for securing.  I've seen people take the
19   handles off so you can't turn the handles, a bunch of
20   different means to positively secure the system.
21        I think the most important that you can do is bleed
22   the system out to make sure there is no energy left.
23             MR. DADDURA:  Is there a requirement for your
24   employees, your maintenance people to test before they
25   actually put their hands into a situation where hazardous
0028
 1   energy could be?
 2             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Absolutely.
 3             MR. DADDURA:  Is that done daily?  I mean, some
 4   work is continued on from day to day or week to week.  Is
 5   there a requirement for any tests to make sure that the
 6   system is still secure?
 7             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Yes.
 8             MR. DADDURA:  Is that in writing?
 9             MR. RAINSBERGER:  It's in our policy, yes.
10             MR. DADDURA:  Can you provide that program of
11   your policy to this hearing?
12             MR. RAINSBERGER:  I could do that at a later
13   date, yes.
14             MR. DADDURA:  I appreciate it.  Thank you.
15             MS. SHORTALL:  Mr. Bolon, do you have any
16   questions?
17             MR. BOLON:  Just a few.
18        It sounds like your yards are primarily or
19   exclusively engaged in the ship repair rather than in
20   shipbuilding?
21             MR. RAINSBERGER:  The Seattle yard is all
22   repair, and the Rainier yard is all new construction.
23             MR. BOLON:  Just to follow up on a point that
24   Joe raised, the total is a comprehensive program which
25   requires that it be written and you've mentioned training
0029
 1   already.  Does Foss have a comprehensive program that's
 2   written as well as the various types of provisions that's
 3   in the proposal?
 4             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Yes.
 5             MR. BOLON:  That's all I've got.
 6             MS. SHORTALL:  Ms. Wangdahl has questions next.
 7             MS. WANGDAHL:  I just have a few questions.
 8        I believe you said you have AED's at your facility?
 9             MR. RAINSBERGER:  We have them at our shipyards
10   and have them on our tugboats.
11             MS. WANGDAHL:  Do you know if Washington has a
12   Good Samaritan law?
13             MR. RAINSBERGER:  I believe Washington does,
14   yes.
15             MS. WANGDAHL:  But you don't think it should be
16   a requirement; you think it should be more of a guidance
17   or --
18             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Are you going back to my
19   comments earlier in my opening?
20             MS. WANGDAHL:  Yes.
21             MR. RAINSBERGER:  I think there is situations,
22   not just in the workplace, where people are uncomfortable
23   giving CPR even though they've been trained.  And there
24   are situations where somebody doesn't feel comfortable
25   using an AED just because they've been through a training
0030
 1   class.  Do they have an obligation to use that?  I think
 2   the answer is probably no.
 3             MS. WANGDAHL:  How long have you had them in
 4   your shipyards?
 5             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Probably going back about six
 6   years.
 7             MS. WANGDAHL:  And then one more comment.
 8   Going back to your testimony, you talked about that the
 9   sanitation section needs work.  Can you elaborate on
10   that?  What portion of the sanitation needs work?
11             MR. RAINSBERGER:  I only read it I think twice
12   over the last four months or whatever, so I might not
13   remember all of it.
14        But it just seems to be provisions where you would
15   actually -- the portable sanicans are acceptable for
16   certain periods where if someone needed to actually use a
17   toilet facility on a short-term basis or on a vast basis
18   versus walking a little bit further to go to the main
19   plumbed area where there is actually a series of toilets.
20   And depending on the person who read it and depending on
21   the wording in there and the enforcement officer that
22   shows up to enforce how that's written, I think it's not
23   clear, it's unclear.
24        Does that mean that we have to start plumbing every
25   pier we have with toilets and we'll just have a yard of
0031
 1   toilets?  It's very unclear.
 2        And I've seen inspectors come through and they're
 3   very reasonable and could read something and say, I know
 4   what the intent is, and I've seen a compliance officer
 5   come through that would read it totally the opposite.
 6             MS. WANGDAHL:  Do you agree with the ratio, the
 7   amount of toilets per employees; is that working for you?
 8             MR. RAINSBERGER:  You have to refresh my memory
 9   of the numbers.
10             MS. WANGDAHL:  One to 15.
11             MR. RAINSBERGER:  That's probably a sufficient
12   number, yes.
13             MS. WANGDAHL:  Thank you.
14             MS. SHORTALL:  Ms. Brinkerhoff has questions
15   next.
16             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Do you have any idea how many
17   of the small shipyards in the Seattle area attend your
18   safety seminars, like what percentage?
19             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Ninety-five percent.
20             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  You also said you've got
21   people from the fishing fleet in your organization?
22             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Correct.
23             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Do they attend those safety
24   seminars also?
25             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Absolutely.
0032
 1             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Because I think someone
 2   mentioned yesterday that there were a lot of people who
 3   were not at this meeting, and our concern would be do
 4   they know about this rulemaking.  But it sounds like they
 5   hear about safety issues from your organization and you
 6   reach out to about how many, do you think, of the small
 7   fishing owners?
 8             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Well, we have Trident and
 9   American Seafood are members of our association.  They
10   belong to other associations.
11        But I couldn't estimate the number outside of the
12   association.
13             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Okay.  And my last question
14   is about audit.  Do you perform audits or inspections of
15   your hazardous energy control systems at your shipyard?
16             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Yes, we do.
17             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  About how often?
18             MR. RAINSBERGER:  At least annually.  We try to
19   do it twice a year.
20             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Do you have any idea how
21   many -- what the members of your organization are doing
22   in that regard?
23             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Could you be a little more
24   clear?
25             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  I mean, is it kind of
0033
 1   standard industry procedure to do audits or inspections
 2   on an annual basis or semi-annual?
 3             MR. RAINSBERGER:  It's something that I do
 4   twice a year walking our facility.  For my walks, I would
 5   generate other questions.
 6        But the electricians and the pipefitters who are
 7   probably the ones who are involved in lockout/tagout are
 8   the ones I go to and let them audit the programs.
 9             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Does that seem to be
10   something that other shipyards do, do you know?
11             MR. RAINSBERGER:  I'm not sure what each
12   company does.
13             MS. SHORTALL:  Thank you, Mr. Rainsberger.  I
14   appreciate you being here today.  I have a few questions
15   as well.
16        I was wondering if you could tell us, you say you're
17   here representing the small to mid-sized shipyards.
18   Could you tell me what characterizes small to mid.  Is it
19   based on sales or income or number of employees or size
20   of the shipyard?
21             MR. RAINSBERGER:  It's more on the size of the
22   vessel that they actually work on and the number of
23   employees in the facilities.
24             MS. SHORTALL:  So could you tell me for small
25   to mid what size vessels do you work on?
0034
 1             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Small to mid could be
 2   anywhere from 30 feet up to 58 feet, mid could be from 58
 3   up to 250.
 4             MS. SHORTALL:  What would you say for those
 5   PSSA members that are the small to mid shipyard their
 6   average number of employees is?
 7             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Anywhere from 10 to 50 would
 8   be small, and anywhere from 50 to say 200 would be
 9   considered a mid-sized.
10             MS. SHORTALL:  And what about the physical size
11   of small to mid shipyards and then mid to large?
12             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Some of the smaller yards
13   might be an acre or two.  Some of the medium-sized would
14   be anywhere from three acres up to 20 acres.
15             MS. SHORTALL:  Three to 20, okay.
16             MR. RAINSBERGER:  I do want to add all the
17   yards that belong to our association are private
18   shipyards.  There are no public shipyards, so we're not
19   subsidized by the Navy or anything.
20             MS. SHORTALL:  I was just trying to figure out
21   how you classify --
22             MR. RAINSBERGER:  I understand.
23             MS. SHORTALL:  -- what went into that.  I would
24   have thought it would have been size or number of
25   employees.  It's very interesting to find out that for
0035
 1   you you classify the size of the vessel you work on.  I
 2   thought that was very interesting.
 3             MR. RAINSBERGER:  It's one of the factors as
 4   well as the number of employees.
 5             MS. SHORTALL:  Are there any substances in
 6   using shipyards that if an employee were splashed with
 7   them they could cause serious and immediate damage to the
 8   eyes or skin other than corrosives?
 9             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Well, corrosives, acids and
10   caustics would be the main concern.  When you talk about
11   the type of damage, did you use the word severe damage?
12             MS. SHORTALL:  Acute, immediate and serious.
13   So we're talking about something that, you know, it would
14   cause, if you didn't get something right now you could
15   have serious damage occurring.
16             MR. RAINSBERGER:  I've had paint splashed in my
17   eye, and I flushed it out with water and was fine the
18   next day, so I wouldn't call that serious.  So paint
19   would not fall in that category.
20        I've never squirted 409 in my eye, but there is 409
21   in the shipyard.
22             MS. SHORTALL:  I just wanted to know if there
23   were ones that you consider to be other than corrosives
24   the kinds of substances that if your employees were
25   splashed with them while they're on the job and they
0036
 1   didn't have something to immediately wash off, it could
 2   cause serious and immediate damage to them.
 3             MR. RAINSBERGER:  I'm not thinking of anything
 4   off the top of my head, no.
 5             MS. SHORTALL:  If OSHA were to rewrite in its
 6   final rule that instead of saying for quick drench
 7   facilities toxic or hazardous substances, instead say
 8   employers each provide these facilities, if there is a
 9   potential that an employee could be splashed with a
10   substance that could cause immediate and serious damage,
11   would that take care of a lot of the concern that you
12   have about that particular provision?
13             MR. RAINSBERGER:  That would sure assist versus
14   the way it's written right now.  I think you can clarify
15   even more by saying acids and caustics would make it
16   pretty clear, it's cut and dry.  When you use words like
17   toxic or hazardous or severe, I mean, there is different
18   interpretations of the definition depending on who you're
19   talking to.
20             MS. SHORTALL:  Do you consider an acid to be a
21   corrosive?
22             MR. RAINSBERGER:  An acid is a corrosive, yes.
23             MS. SHORTALL:  You were here yesterday.
24             MR. RAINSBERGER:  I was in the morning and had
25   to go to work.
0037
 1             MS. SHORTALL:  A number of people who were here
 2   yesterday in addition to Amy Duz indicated that they have
 3   preference for locks, would like to see that happen for
 4   the lockout/tagout programs for shipyards and vessels.
 5             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Sure.
 6             MS. SHORTALL:  Do you agree with that?
 7             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Whenever it's capable of
 8   being locked up, that's the preferred method, yes.
 9             MS. SHORTALL:  In his testimony afternoon, Mr.
10   Davis indicated that through a course of just routine
11   equipment replacement over let's say 10 years, that his
12   company could make some big inroads in moving from
13   nonlockable equipment to lockable equipment.
14        How long would it take your company through normal
15   equipment replacement to also have significant inroads
16   and change into all lockable equipment or achieve an all
17   lockable equipment status?
18             MR. RAINSBERGER:  To be 100 percent may take a
19   little bit longer.  You know, sometimes it's like the
20   cart before the horse, you have to educate the
21   manufacturers of panels today, say from now on when you
22   make these panels, make sure they're lockable.  As we get
23   this panels five years down the road, seven to 10 years,
24   then it's there.
25        There is still a lot of manufacturers who make brand
0038
 1   new things that don't accept a lock on their system, so
 2   it's a lockout/tagout issue.  That's the challenge, I
 3   think, is the manufacturers aren't there yet.
 4             MS. SHORTALL:  So, for example, would a 10-year
 5   lead time be enough to get the word out to manufacturers
 6   and get manufacturers on board so as shipyards go through
 7   their routine replacement they could move to lockable
 8   equipment?
 9             MR. RAINSBERGER:  That would sure be great.
10             MS. SHORTALL:  I know that Mr. Daddura has some
11   further questions he would like to ask you.  I would just
12   like to say on behalf of OSHA's Solicitor's Office, I
13   would like to thank you for coming here today and for all
14   the work that you and PSSA have done to be involved in
15   this rulemaking.
16             MR. RAINSBERGER:  I think you can tell we have
17   a lot of passion for this and we want to make sure our
18   employees are well taken care of.
19             MS. SHORTALL:  It's obvious that both the
20   organization and you personally have a great passion for
21   it.  It's easy to see.
22             MR. RAINSBERGER:  We do.
23             MR. DADDURA:  Just a couple of more follow-up
24   questions.
25        A question about quick drenching.  Is there ever a
0039
 1   time when an employee who could be drenched in a paint
 2   thinner or highly polymeric materials that would need a
 3   quick drench shower operation?
 4             MR. RAINSBERGER:  If a hose exploded on an
 5   airless sprayer that was full of thinner, that situation
 6   could arise, yes.
 7             MR. DADDURA:  Jumping to lockout/tagout.  How
 8   do you handle group lockouts currently in your yard and
 9   on your vessels?
10             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Well, going back to removing
11   the hazard completely would eliminate the group lockout
12   in a lot of occasions.
13             MR. DADDURA:  Let's clarify, what do you mean
14   by "removing the hazard completely?"
15             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Such as taking the wires away
16   and taking the fuse out so there isn't a hazard to start
17   with.  So if electrical folks and maintenance are working
18   on the system, there would be no need for a rigger who is
19   working on the opposite side of the area to be affected
20   in any way, because there's no way they could energize it
21   even if they tried to.  There isn't a hazard there.
22   That's the best way.
23        Now, to put a group hasp on there with multiple ways
24   to lock it off is one way to do it.  But I'm not sure if
25   the rigger who is actually working on a task 30 feet away
0040
 1   would need to have a lock that would be part of the group
 2   lockout/tagout.  If you follow where I was going with
 3   that.
 4             MR. DADDURA:  Completely.  But you have a union
 5   yard, correct?
 6             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Yes.
 7             MR. DADDURA:  And you have lines.
 8             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Yes.
 9             MR. DADDURA:  Let's take for example a fire
10   pump.  You disconnect the cable and the wire from the
11   fire pump and then you have the riggers come in and
12   remove it, right, and then sheetmetal come back and check
13   something.  When you have multiple crafts like that or
14   welding or whatever the case might be, it could be six or
15   seven crafts involved, multiple employees on each craft,
16   do you feel a lockbox is adequate, should be used once
17   the hazard has been removed completely to where that pump
18   is not going to turn, is not going to energize?
19             MR. RAINSBERGER:  If they could eliminate that
20   hazard from being energized in the first place, that
21   means away from the turn on and off switch to that pump
22   going back somewhere in the system to do that, then I
23   would feel comfortable that a group lock wouldn't be
24   necessary.
25             MR. DADDURA:  How would the electrician know
0041
 1   when they were done?
 2             MR. RAINSBERGER:  They would be the initial one
 3   to tag it out and they would be the initial one to put it
 4   back on line.
 5             MR. DADDURA:  Suppose one day, let's say I'm
 6   going to go down and hook that pump back up, and you've
 7   still got people working on that system.  How do you
 8   prevent that?
 9             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Through communication and
10   signage just to make sure people understand, job safety
11   analysis.
12             MR. DADDURA:  I'm saying is it the employee's
13   responsibility to get in and assign themselves work, him
14   or her?
15             MR. RAINSBERGER:  They're assigned work by
16   their supervisors.
17             MR. DADDURA:  So the supervisors control their
18   assignments basically?
19             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Absolutely.
20             MR. DADDURA:  So they can't just go, let me go
21   hook this pump up or this system up before I leave
22   here --
23             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Right.
24             MR. DADDURA:  -- without checking with anybody.
25             MR. RAINSBERGER:  That's correct.
0042
 1             MR. DADDURA:  Same with the contractors?
 2             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Absolutely.
 3             MR. DADDURA:  They have to go through the
 4   supervisor, superintendent, whatever to --
 5             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Subcontractors go through our
 6   supervision to do the lockout/tagout measures.
 7             MR. DADDURA:  Okay, that's all I have.  Thank
 8   you.
 9             MS. SHORTALL:  Thank you.
10             JUDGE GEE:  Thank you, Mr. Rainsberger.
11        Our witness next is Andrew Posewitz and Phil
12   McKenzie.
13             MR. McKENZIE:  Andrew is not going to be able
14   to be here today, and he sent an e-mail to that effect.
15   I think the person told me some additional comments will
16   be forwarded that related to this.
17             JUDGE GEE:  Will you please state your name and
18   your affiliation.
19             MR. McKENZIE:  Phil McKenzie and I'm with Todd
20   Pacific Shipyards.
21             JUDGE GEE:  Thank you.
22             MR. McKENZIE:  Thank you for your time today
23   and the great distance you've traveled to be present.  My
24   name is Phil McKenzie, and I'm the safety manager for
25   Todd Pacific Shipyards, and I will be speaking on behalf
0043
 1   of Todd today because Andrew is not able to be here
 2   today.
 3        Todd Shipyards has been in the industry since 1960.
 4   As a member of the maritime industry, we've actively
 5   participated in the many challenges that have occurred
 6   since then.  We currently employ as few as 300, which is
 7   about where we're at right now, and at times over 1,000
 8   employees.  We normally utilize between nine and 12
 9   subcontractors, but in really high periods that number
10   could be 20 to 30.
11        We recognize and appreciate OSHA's commitment to
12   safety as well as your expertise in the formulation of
13   the specific language used in regulations, but we also
14   recognize that as members of the maritime industry we are
15   the experts in the day-to-day functions and challenges
16   that are present in our work.  Many of our challenges we
17   face are strictly unique to our industry.  Using the
18   Bureau of Labor Statistics data, we have a demonstrated
19   track record of our commitment to safety.
20        From 1996 to 2006, the period of time that reflected
21   no significant -- I won't say none -- but no significant
22   regulatory changes by OSHA, our industry's reportable
23   injury rate shows a steady decline from 27.4 to 10.7.
24   Our efforts are not just a product of compliance.  We
25   have a vested interest to self-regulate.
0044
 1        In a time of watchful spending, our industry is very
 2   competitive.  The high costs associated with worker
 3   injuries is more than just insurance and medical
 4   payments, it's also the loss of friends, coworkers, years
 5   of talent, morale and productivity.  We have and we will
 6   continue to embrace new ideas and technologies for our
 7   workers' safety.
 8        In fact, several years ago when AED's first came
 9   out, and I wasn't the safety manager at the time, but
10   when they first came out we had an employee that an AED
11   was utilized on.  Not only is that employee alive, but
12   he's still an active member of our workforce today.  We
13   recognize and appreciate those technologies, and we look
14   forward to expanding those.
15        With that said, though, the exclusion of our
16   expertise in the formulation of the proposed new
17   regulations has resulted in what we believe to be no
18   meaningful purpose towards that advance of safety.  Many
19   elements of the proposed rule will be spoken at in length
20   by my colleagues and with greater detail than I could
21   ever provide.  I'm fairly new as a safety manager.
22        But in addition to that, I would like OSHA to note
23   my support of the written comments of PSSA, and I would
24   hope that and strongly encourage that once again, as it's
25   happened before, the maritime industry would work with
0045
 1   OSHA in a collaborative effort to bring about the
 2   formulation of regulations that will not just be
 3   effective in reaching our shared goal of increased worker
 4   safety but also be cost effective as well.  The cost
 5   effective in this competitive environment is very
 6   important for all of us.
 7             JUDGE GEE:  Is there anybody in the audience
 8   who has questions for Mr. McKenzie?
 9        The OSHA panel.
10             MS. SHORTALL:  We'll start with Ms. Wangdahl.
11             MS. WANGDAHL:  Good morning, Mr. McKenzie.
12             MR. McKENZIE:  Good morning.
13             MS. WANGDAHL:  You stated that you have AED's
14   at Todd right now?
15             MR. McKENZIE:  We do.
16             MS. WANGDAHL:  Can you tell me how many you
17   have, where they're located?
18             MR. McKENZIE:  We currently have two.  We have
19   one that is in the -- we have an emergency van that is
20   loaded with additional equipment along with the AED, and
21   then we have one in our medical dispenser.
22             MS. WANGDAHL:  The van, is that what you're
23   using right now for your first aid provisions?
24             MR. McKENZIE:  Yes.
25             MS. WANGDAHL:  Who operates the van?
0046
 1             MR. McKENZIE:  The fire safety officers and the
 2   medical or the clinic staff.
 3             MS. WANGDAHL:  What's the physical size of
 4   Todd?  It can be a rough estimate.
 5             MR. McKENZIE:  I believe it's like 40 acres.
 6   Al is out there, and he can verify that.
 7             MS. WANGDAHL:  Are you operating 24 hours?
 8             MR. McKENZIE:  Yes.  Well, what do you mean?
 9   We are capable of operating 24 hours a day, and we have
10   security personnel and fire safety personnel there 24
11   hours a day.
12             MS. WANGDAHL:  But you don't necessarily have
13   employees there 24 hours all the time?
14             MR. McKENZIE:  Not all the time.
15             MS. WANGDAHL:  Just as work is needed?
16             MR. McKENZIE:  We just have as work is
17   required.  We normally run a day shift Monday through
18   Friday and swing shift Monday through Friday, and as
19   needed we may work a day or swing shift on Saturday or
20   Sunday, holidays.  We do have provisions in the labor
21   agreement for a graveyard shift as well.
22             MS. WANGDAHL:  Is your fire safety officer
23   there during all those shifts as well?
24             MR. McKENZIE:  Yes.
25             MS. WANGDAHL:  So there's more than one;
0047
 1   obviously you have more than one?
 2             MR. McKENZIE:  There is at least one security
 3   and a minimum of one fire safety officer.
 4             MS. WANGDAHL:  Can you explain what would
 5   happen if there is an accident.  What's the method of
 6   communication and how long would it take the van to get
 7   to the employee?
 8             MR. McKENZIE:  That's a really good question.
 9   The method of communication, we have radios, we have
10   telephones.  The fire safety officer also has a dedicated
11   cell phone, the on-duty cell phone.
12        We also have a dedicated ring line that is in the
13   medical clinic, in the safety office, in the
14   transportation office, and also at the main gate.  If any
15   one of those phones is picked up, all phones will ring,
16   everybody will get on the line and that's an additional
17   method of communication.
18             MS. WANGDAHL:  How long would it take the van
19   to get to the employee?
20             MR. McKENZIE:  Anywhere in the yard is just a
21   few minutes.
22        On the vessel is another story.  On the vessel or if
23   it were an employee that was working inside of dry dock
24   doing maintenance, that would be difficult for me to give
25   you a specific answer.
0048
 1             MS. WANGDAHL:  Is the fire safety officer CPR
 2   and first aid trained?
 3             MR. McKENZIE:  Yes.  In fact, currently of the
 4   staff that I have, all but one of them has EMT
 5   experience.
 6             MS. WANGDAHL:  Is there anybody else within the
 7   yard that also has these certifications?
 8             MR. McKENZIE:  Yes.  Many of the supervisors
 9   have first aid CPR training that we go through, as well
10   as we have a medical clinic that is staffed on day shift
11   and swing shift during the normal Monday through Friday
12   with medical technicians that have advanced medical
13   skills.
14             MS. WANGDAHL:  So for any type of accident, you
15   would rely solely on your in-house fire safety officer or
16   are there instances when you would call 911?
17             MR. McKENZIE:  Oh, absolutely there is
18   instances when we would call 911.  As good as our staff
19   is, we consider them the first line of defense and only
20   an immediate beginning of the process, and a 911 call for
21   that specialized care.
22             MS. WANGDAHL:  What's their response time?
23             MR. McKENZIE:  They are quick.  Station 36 is
24   1.75 miles from our facility, and Station 36 is the
25   maritime experts for marine recovery rescue, and if they
0049
 1   needed additional support the other stations are not much
 2   further.
 3             MS. WANGDAHL:  Do you have first aid kits
 4   throughout the yard?
 5             MR. McKENZIE:  We, we do.
 6             MS. WANGDAHL:  So you allow employees, if they
 7   need a Band-Aid or some supplies from the first aid kit,
 8   they can go there whenever they need?
 9             MR. McKENZIE:  Yes, we do.  Our injury program
10   requires that any injuries more than a Band-Aid, the
11   employee, the affected employee and his supervisor must
12   both come to the medical facility and fill out our
13   accident reports.  The medical officer determines what
14   the classification is, what the necessary treatment is
15   and if we need any additional support at that time.
16        But yes, we do have the first aid kits out there,
17   and yes, they can put a Band-Aid on.
18             MS. WANGDAHL:  Let's shift gears a little bit
19   and talk about working in confined and isolated spaces.
20   As you know, this is a current requirement, so when we
21   say isolated space, what does that mean to you?
22             MR. McKENZIE:  Isolated?
23             MS. WANGDAHL:  Working in an isolated space.
24             MR. McKENZIE:  Confined space?  Confined space
25   or an isolated space?
0050
 1             MS. WANGDAHL:  Isolated space.
 2             MR. McKENZIE:  You got me, you got me.  I'm not
 3   a -- confined space, as I'm sure you're aware of, we deal
 4   with on a daily basis.  But I'm not so sure I understand
 5   what an isolated space is.
 6             MS. WANGDAHL:  Do you think we need a
 7   definition for this in the final rule?
 8             MR. McKENZIE:  It sounds good to me.
 9             MS. WANGDAHL:  How do you check on your
10   employees when they're working in confined spaces?
11             MR. McKENZIE:  In confined spaces?
12             MS. WANGDAHL:  Yes.
13             MR. McKENZIE:  The employees are -- the
14   immediate supervisors for those employees are directly
15   responsible for those employees and make regular checks.
16   They are supposed to check the workspace before the work
17   assignment is given to ensure that they have the tools
18   that they need, that the space is adequate for the work
19   that is being performed and the proper certifications
20   have been completed for the space.
21        In addition to that, the fire safety officers are
22   the persons that take care of those certifications for
23   the confined spaces.  And in addition to doing that, they
24   also make regular checks during their shift of all the
25   vessels in the yard and all areas where work is going on
0051
 1   to ensure that safety is being followed.
 2             MS. WANGDAHL:  Do you have an end-of-shift
 3   muster or end-of-shift check?
 4             MR. McKENZIE:  The supervisors take care of the
 5   employees time, and they assign a task and they are
 6   required to check at the end of the day to ensure that
 7   the people are there and they can't enter the time if
 8   they're not.
 9             MS. WANGDAHL:  Do you have any sort of
10   procedure if somebody doesn't show up at the end of a
11   shift?
12             MR. McKENZIE:  I'm sorry?
13             MS. WANGDAHL:  If someone doesn't show --
14             MR. McKENZIE:  At the end of the shift?
15             MS. WANGDAHL:  Yes.
16             MR. McKENZIE:  The supervisor will make the
17   notifications to his supervisor and will go and look and
18   find out where they are.
19             MS. WANGDAHL:  Let's talk about lockout/tagout
20   again.  Can you talk about your procedures that you have
21   or your program that you have.
22             MR. McKENZIE:  The lockout/tagout program that
23   we have is probably very similar to what you just heard
24   from Al Rainsberger, since a lot of that was set up by
25   him as my predecessor.
0052
 1        The lockout/tagout program for us because of the
 2   size of our facility, we have a maintenance program for
 3   the facility side, which is strictly for the facility
 4   side.  It parallels the same requirements as the
 5   production side except that we have a designated
 6   lockout/tagout coordinator, permanent lockout/tagout
 7   coordinator, and we have a book that's maintained at the
 8   facilities office.
 9        Any tag that is put on by an authorized employee
10   that is going to be there for anything, anymore than an
11   eight-hour shift or an eight-hour period must be logged
12   in the book.  And nobody can remove a tag except that
13   authorized employee or the coordinator.  Sorry, had a
14   little blank spot.
15             MS. WANGDAHL:  I have them all the time.
16        What is your biggest challenge with the proposed
17   rule or what do you perceive is going to be your biggest
18   challenge?
19             MR. McKENZIE:  Well, I think Al addressed it
20   quite well.  We have our shipyard, as I mentioned, is a
21   very, very old shipyard, and a lot of our systems could
22   be locked out in the manner that have been spoken to or
23   addressed.
24        The replacement of those, I'm sure even as young as
25   I am, they probably won't all be replaced before I'm
0053
 1   gone.
 2        And, of course, there is others challenges as well.
 3   The 440 equipment is ground fault.  There is not very
 4   much equipment out there for that.  The manufacturers, as
 5   you suggested, extending the lead time I think is
 6   probably a very wise move to give manufacturers time to
 7   make sure those products are available for us.
 8             MS. WANGDAHL:  Thank you very much.
 9             MS. SHORTALL:  Mr. Bolon will ask questions
10   now.
11             MR. BOLON:  How do you transport people around
12   your shipyard?
13             MR. McKENZIE:  I'm sorry?
14             MR. BOLON:  How do your employees get around
15   your shipyard?  It's fairly big.
16             MR. McKENZIE:  We walk.
17             MR. BOLON:  Do you use forklifts at all?
18             MR. McKENZIE:  We do have forklifts, yes.
19             MR. BOLON:  Are your employees required to wear
20   seat belts when they're operating them?
21             MR. McKENZIE:  Yes, they are.
22             MR. BOLON:  Do you move people around via
23   pickups or any kind of things like that, golf carts?
24             MR. McKENZIE:  We do have some -- we do have a
25   few vehicles, some pickups, but those are not primarily
0054
 1   for the movement of people within the yard.  We do have
 2   some battery-powered carts, golf carts, if you will, that
 3   are used.  There is a few of them, and they're used
 4   mostly for the maintenance crew who have designated
 5   equipment that they need to go from place to place.
 6   There is one or two people.  Those carts as well have
 7   seat belts.
 8        The production personnel though primarily, they
 9   carry tools to and from the workspace with the except of
10   the heavy tools that we have.  We have boxes that we've
11   converted into deployable units that are prepped prior to
12   the job with the tools and equipment, the safety gear,
13   whatever is needed or expected to be needed for that job,
14   called kitting for the job, and that box is moved out by
15   a forklift to the job site.  And that's how most of it is
16   carried out there.
17             MR. BOLON:  Do you have any safety issues with
18   your vehicles and pedestrian traffic, just do you have
19   any accidents or safety issues about how they move
20   around?
21             MR. McKENZIE:  We haven't had any accidents in
22   regards to that recently.  I think a very, very long time
23   ago I do seem to recall something, something minor.
24        But for the most part we do not.  We have signage,
25   we have lines, we have stop lines on blind corners.  We
0055
 1   have areas where we've installed mirrors where a person
 2   can see around the corner.
 3        We really don't have a big issue with that.
 4             MR. BOLON:  Thanks.
 5             MS. SHORTALL:  Ms. Watson will ask questions
 6   next.
 7             MS. WATSON:  I just have one quick question.
 8   Earlier when Ms. Wangdahl was questioning you and you
 9   mentioned for emergencies you use cell phones and radios
10   for communication.  I'm just curious how those have
11   worked out for you.  Have there ever been situations
12   where maybe someone couldn't get through to their
13   responders?
14             MR. McKENZIE:  No, we really haven't had an
15   issue with it.  The radios actually probably work better
16   than cell phones do, especially in the wing walls.  Our
17   experience has been that sometimes a cell phone won't get
18   out of the wing wall whereas the radios, we seem to be
19   able to have radio coverage throughout the yard.
20        In fact, our transportation offices where they
21   dispatch the forklifts has a, what do you call it, an
22   outside antenna which increases the available coverage.
23   So even if someone on the other end of the yard couldn't
24   hear, the transportation office always does, and one of
25   the ring down phones is in the transportation office.
0056
 1             MS. WATSON:  With those radios, who are issued
 2   those other than the emergency responders; is it
 3   supervisors?
 4             MR. McKENZIE:  Yes, supervisors have radios,
 5   the fire safety officers have radios, the security
 6   officers have radios.  Just about every craft group has a
 7   number of radios.  Certainly not every employee does, but
 8   at least every supervisor does.
 9             MS. WATSON:  So those supervisors are in charge
10   of a certain amount of employees and they're checking up
11   on them?
12             MR. McKENZIE:  That's correct.
13             MS. WATSON:  Thank you.
14             MS. SHORTALL:  Mr. Daddura will ask questions
15   next.
16             MR. DADDURA:  Good morning.
17             MR. McKENZIE:  Good morning.
18             MR. DADDURA:  I'll try and make it short.
19        Have you ever had an occasion where you sent an
20   employee to a machine shop or rigging shop off ship when
21   no one else is around to pick up material or equipment
22   that's needed for a job?
23             MR. McKENZIE:  Let me make sure I understand
24   the question.  When you say nobody is around --
25             MR. DADDURA:  No one is off ship.  You have 25
0057
 1   people working on ship, working through the ship.  The
 2   supervisor says, Hey, Phil, go down and get me a reach
 3   rod or an inch and a quarter, and Phil goes to the
 4   machine job to get the reach rod, no one else is working
 5   in the machine shop.  Has that ever happened?
 6             MR. McKENZIE:  I can't say that it hasn't.  But
 7   I certainly can say that every trade is very prominently
 8   represented in our yard and have very clear lines of
 9   jurisdiction, and if that is not their job, they're not
10   going to do it.
11             MR. DADDURA:  The question is to send someone
12   into an area where no one else is there.
13             MR. McKENZIE:  So you're not talking about --
14             MR. DADDURA:  No, I'm talking --
15             MR. McKENZIE:  You're just talking about going
16   into a building where nobody else might be.
17             MR. DADDURA:  Correct, or a tank or a space on
18   a ship, something like that.
19             MR. McKENZIE:  Well, in a building I would say
20   that probably does happen with some regularity.
21             MR. DADDURA:  What about a space in a ship, a
22   tank, passageway?
23             MR. McKENZIE:  Passageway, probably yes;
24   confined spaces, no.
25             MR. DADDURA:  Do you think there are isolated
0058
 1   spaces when no one else is around that can --
 2             MR. McKENZIE:  That would probably be a fair
 3   definition.
 4             MR. DADDURA:  If you send someone down to put a
 5   bolt in a bracket in the engine room to finish a job and
 6   no one else is there, that's what our concern is.  When
 7   we say isolated spaces, no one else is there.  On day
 8   shift you have people walking around doing other jobs;
 9   they are visually seen.  That's what our concern is with
10   isolated spaces.
11             MR. McKENZIE:  Okay, that's fair.
12             MR. DADDURA:  You used the term wing wall or
13   wing tank.
14             MR. McKENZIE:  Wing wall, yes.  Those are in
15   reference to our floating dry docks.
16             MR. DADDURA:  Can you explain that a little bit
17   just for the record, explain what that terminology is.
18             MR. McKENZIE:  Yes, I will.  The floating dry
19   docks are somewhat of a U-shape, if you will, so you have
20   an open end.  In this case the way ours are oriented, you
21   have an open end on the north and you have an open end on
22   the south.
23        On the east and west you have walls of the
24   structure.  Those wing walls have an outside deck, and
25   then just below that at a minimum they have a safety
0059
 1   deck.  On that safety deck is usually where the
 2   equipment, pumps for control for the submergence and
 3   bringing up of a dry dock.
 4        And then below that safety deck is where we're
 5   talking about the wing wall itself, which is the internal
 6   structure, the retrods that go from the pumps to the
 7   actual valves that are inside of the tanks and the
 8   different tank areas that comprise the floating dry dock
 9   itself.
10        Does that help?
11             MR. DADDURA:  Yes, that helps a great deal.
12        Can you send more than one person in there?
13             MR. McKENZIE:  Yes.
14             MR. DADDURA:  In the same location?
15             MR. McKENZIE:  Yes.
16             MR. DADDURA:  Can you send more than one person
17   to all of your confined spaces or in close spaces?
18             MR. McKENZIE:  Well, that wouldn't be a fair
19   statement because sometimes a confined space is so
20   confined that --
21             MR. DADDURA:  You can't fit more than one.
22             MR. McKENZIE:  -- you can't fit more than one.
23             MR. DADDURA:  I understand.
24             MR. McKENZIE:  In a confined space, there is
25   always one person that is doing the work and at least one
0060
 1   person that is either directly observing the work or
 2   outside the space.
 3             MR. DADDURA:  Thank you.
 4             MS. SHORTALL:  Ms. Brinkerhoff will ask
 5   questions now.
 6             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  During your testimony you
 7   described employees at Todd ranging from 300 to 1,000.
 8   I'm wondering what causes that range; is that just kind
 9   of a periodic fluctuation or is it seasonal or is it a
10   function of the economy?
11             MR. McKENZIE:  Yes, yes, yes.
12             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  And why are you at 300 now?
13   That seems a low point.
14             MR. McKENZIE:  The workforce fluctuates
15   depending on the production requirements.  We, as a
16   shipyard, do mostly repair, some building.  And when the
17   work is there, you have employees; when the work is not
18   there, you roll down to the minimum amount of
19   administrative staff and the required personnel.
20             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  So is it something that
21   happens kind of periodically, it comes and goes?
22             MR. McKENZIE:  Everybody is watching the
23   dollar.  So, yeah, I mean, they certainly try to -- we
24   want as much business as we can, just as any shipyard
25   does.  And we try to keep our berthing spaces and our dry
0061
 1   docks as full as possible.  Obviously that's the only way
 2   to make money.  But it doesn't always happen that way.
 3             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Thanks.
 4             MS. SHORTALL:  Mr. McKenzie, thank you so much
 5   for being here today.  I have also a few questions.
 6        You happened to mention before certain lines of
 7   authority and if something isn't your job, you know,
 8   you're not going to do it.  Can you tell me what labor
 9   organizations are represented at your facility?
10             MR. McKENZIE:  Well, we have the electricians,
11   pipefitters, we have the Teamsters, who we actually have
12   two groups of Teamsters, one who do the outside forklift
13   and one who do the warehouse work, and so a warehouse
14   forklift driver cannot take supplies or loads outside of
15   dropping it off outside of the warehouse.  And then an
16   outside forklift has to pick it up and take it to
17   wherever else it has to go.
18        We have operating engineers for the crane operators.
19   We have inside machinists, we have outside machinists.
20        I know I'm missing some.  We have the labor, labor
21   department, we have boilermakers.
22             MS. SHORTALL:  The laborers?
23             MR. McKENZIE:  Laborers, yes.  I'm not sure
24   which union that is, but we have a labor department.
25             MS. SHORTALL:  Is that Labors International; is
0062
 1   that what it is?
 2             MR. McKENZIE:  I can do that later, I'm sorry,
 3   I don't know.
 4        I don't know, boilermakers, riggers.
 5             MS. SHORTALL:  It's a big list, isn't it?
 6             MR. McKENZIE:  Yes, it's a big list.
 7        And they're all represented individually by their
 8   different unions, but they all collectively bargain under
 9   the Metal Trades Council.
10             MS. SHORTALL:  If you think of any other
11   organizations that are at your shipyard, could you add
12   that in your post-hearing comments?
13             MR. McKENZIE:  I would certainly be happy to
14   just forward you a copy of it.
15             MS. SHORTALL:  All right.  Can you tell me how
16   many injuries you've had at your shipyard this year?
17             MR. McKENZIE:  In the past 12 months?
18             MS. SHORTALL:  Do you do your recordkeeping on
19   a calendar basis or on a fiscal year?
20             MR. McKENZIE:  We have a rolling record.  And
21   our current rate, I believe, is 12.
22             MS. SHORTALL:  Your current rate is 12?
23             MR. McKENZIE:  Yes.
24             MS. SHORTALL:  So am I --
25             MR. McKENZIE:  I believe that to be correct.
0063
 1             MS. SHORTALL:  So that would be the rate for
 2   the industry as a whole?
 3             MR. McKENZIE:  Right now, yes.  But then a
 4   couple of months ago it was eight.
 5             MS. SHORTALL:  What are the injury trends; what
 6   tend to be the operations in which injuries are occurring
 7   most often and what type of injuries are you seeing most
 8   frequently?
 9             MR. McKENZIE:  A lot of our workforce is an
10   aging workforce, and the biggest majority is -- we do see
11   some minor eye injuries.  But most of our injuries are
12   strains and sprains and trips and falls.
13             MS. SHORTALL:  Do you know of any substances
14   other than corrosives or acids in your workplace where if
15   an employee was splashed with them it could cause acute,
16   immediate and serious damage?
17             MR. McKENZIE:  I was listening to that question
18   before and kind of running through my head, and I cannot
19   think of anything else that I could add to that.
20             MS. SHORTALL:  If OSHA were to change our final
21   rule, so moved away from that toxic and hazardous, and
22   instead focused on quick drench and try to get at areas
23   where if you don't get something right away you are going
24   to be injured, there could be serious damage, so if we
25   focus on that, would that take care of a lot of the
0064
 1   concern you have over -- the concern the industry has
 2   over that particular provision?
 3             MR. McKENZIE:  I think it would make it easier
 4   to comply with.
 5             MS. SHORTALL:  All right.
 6             MR. McKENZIE:  More appropriate in practice and
 7   would provide a level of safety for the employees that
 8   the alternatives would not.
 9             MS. SHORTALL:  I don't know if you were here
10   yesterday.
11             MR. McKENZIE:  I wasn't.  I was not able to be
12   here yesterday.
13             MS. SHORTALL:  We had several people indicate
14   that they have a preference for locks for lockout/tagout
15   in this industry.  Do you share that preference as well?
16             MR. McKENZIE:  I would agree that whenever
17   possible a lock, a physical barrier rather than just a
18   tag is always the most appropriate, or as Al said, and we
19   have them as well, just isolate the system completely to
20   make it completely safe, there is no hazard.
21             MS. SHORTALL:  Do you think over let's say a
22   10-year period of normal replacement of equipment in your
23   facility that you could make significant inroads or make
24   significant increases in the number of, the amount of
25   lockable equipment you have in the shipyard?
0065
 1             MR. McKENZIE:  I would say that the statement
 2   of a significant increase would be fair, yes.
 3             MS. SHORTALL:  How long do you think it would
 4   take you to go from, just a normal routine replacement of
 5   equipment, to go from a non-lockable situation in the
 6   shipyard to being totally lockable?
 7             MR. McKENZIE:  That would be very difficult for
 8   me to answer, and I'll explain why.  Again, the shipyard
 9   has been there since 1916, and naturally some of the
10   structures have been there probably longer than that.  It
11   wasn't always Todd.
12        A lot of the equipment that was built and is still
13   in service today was built at a standard to last a
14   lifetime versus what we build today, which is, you know,
15   there is a rather defined period of life to it.
16        In fact, as an example, we have some -- we have a
17   crane, an inside crane, overhead crane.  Anyway, this
18   crane is still in service today and was originally
19   manufactured, I believe in 1920-something.  And it's a
20   very -- it's a very great crane, it works well.  It's
21   very difficult to get parts for.
22        But to try and change it is even more difficult and
23   extremely cost prohibitive.  The really only viable
24   alternative would be actually take it out of service and
25   replace it with something.
0066
 1             MS. SHORTALL:  One other small line of inquiry.
 2   What arrangements do you have in your shipyard for when
 3   it snows, cleaning off so employees can, one, walk to the
 4   place where they need to work, and two, do the work in a
 5   situation where they're not going to be slipping and
 6   falling?
 7             MR. McKENZIE:  We have a freeze-up plan that is
 8   part of our contingencies, and in fact, just went back
 9   into effect last week.  In this freeze-up plan, our
10   powerhouse operators watch the temperatures, the
11   surrounding temperatures.
12        When the temperature gets to 34 degrees or less,
13   they make a notification to facilities manager or his
14   designee and explain what's going on and what appears to
15   be the trend.  They make a decision based on that
16   information to say yes, we need a crew and this is how
17   many we need.
18        And when that decision is made, that crew is called
19   out either immediately, depending on circumstances, or
20   several hours before the regular workforce comes in so
21   that they can prepare the areas and ensure that we have a
22   safe area.
23             MS. SHORTALL:  Do you get -- I was really
24   surprised when I woke up this morning and turned on the
25   television and found out there were significant areas of
0067
 1   Seattle that had black ice today.  Is black ice an issue
 2   in your shipyard?
 3             MR. McKENZIE:  Not so much for us.  I
 4   personally live about 40 miles from the shipyard, and
 5   where I live, I can walk out of the door and find frost
 6   and ice and black ice and everything.  And then by the
 7   time I get down to Harbor Island, you know, it's 40-plus
 8   degrees, warm.  So there can be a lot of variance there.
 9        We do occasionally have problems during the winter
10   months, and like I said, we call the freeze-up crew and
11   they're out there early, and then they periodically
12   throughout the day as needed will take whatever
13   corrective steps.
14             MS. SHORTALL:  We had one person in our
15   Washington DC hearing who said they did not like -- we've
16   had several -- but one person who said, I don't like the
17   way you've phrased remove slippery conditions as they
18   occur and suggested instead what the language might be is
19   where employees are walking and working, you have to
20   clear it off, and where they're not, you don't have to;
21   in other words, restrict the area.
22        If we were to change to get to that type of thing to
23   protect people actually where they are, would that also
24   take care of some of the problem that you've having?
25             MR. McKENZIE:  Most certainly.  And especially
0068
 1   for us and the size of our facility, we would have to
 2   hire an entire contingent of personnel just to maintain a
 3   facility for areas that nobody is going to be in.
 4        We currently have probably -- well, at least
 5   one-third of the yard that is not used at all on a
 6   regular basis, and then probably another third that is
 7   only used as needed.  It could be a huge expense for us.
 8             MS. SHORTALL:  And you don't allow people to go
 9   in places that haven't had the snow and ice removed?
10             MR. McKENZIE:  Right.
11             MS. SHORTALL:  Thank you very much.  It was
12   really helpful to have you hear today, and we really look
13   forward to your post-hearing comments.  Thank you.
14             JUDGE GEE:  Thank you, Mr. McKenzie.
15        Let's take a five-minute break.  And if there is
16   anybody in the room who has not checked in with Veneta,
17   please do so.
18          (Recess from 11:00 a.m. to 11:05 a.m.)
19             JUDGE GEE:  Our next speakers will be a panel
20   consisting of Rick Brown, Doug Ward, Kim Hodne and John
21   Killingsworth.  If you could sit in the order in which I
22   called your name, that will help the court reporter.
23             MS. SHORTALL:  Your Honor, while we're waiting
24   to start, I would like to mark Mr. Brown's hearing
25   testimony as Exhibit 0179 in the previously-mentioned
0069
 1   document.
 2             JUDGE GEE:  All right, so ordered.
 3        We're still missing one person.
 4             MR. HODNE:  Mr. Ward was unable to attend
 5   today.  We're from the same company, so I'll carry on.
 6             JUDGE GEE:  We'll ask Mr. Brown to begin.
 7   Please state your name and your affiliation.
 8             MR. ROWN:  Rick Brown, Trident Seafoods.  I'm
 9   going to repeat some of the information that we already
10   provided yesterday.
11        Good morning, Judge Gee, ladies and gentlemen, my
12   name is Rick Brown.  Thank you for the opportunity to
13   testify today on behalf of Trident Seafoods Corporation.
14        As you heard yesterday from Lurilla Lee, our VP of
15   vessel safety, we harvest, process and market seafood
16   from Alaska, the Pacific Northwest and around the world.
17   Trident Seafoods is firmly committed to providing a safe
18   workplace for our employees.  We want each and every
19   person working for us to go home safely every day.
20        I'm the Alaska Support Engineering Manager for
21   Trident's fleet of over 40 fishing industry vessels,
22   currently comprised of 16 fish tenders, 16 catcher
23   vessels, six fish processor vessels and four catcher
24   processors.
25        Our vessel lengths range from 66 feet to 356 feet.
0070
 1   Our crew sizes range from four to 235 persons per vessel,
 2   many from various places throughout the world.  We have
 3   two repair and maintenance facilities located in Puget
 4   Sound for our fleet.  We own our customer base and they
 5   own us.
 6        Our two facilities almost exclusively service
 7   vessels owned and operated by Trident Seafoods.  Our
 8   Tacoma facility sits on 12.6 acres with 3,030 feet of
 9   mooring space, and 150 persons employed during peak
10   activity.
11        Our Seattle facility sits on 2.5 acres with 400 feet
12   of mooring space and 70 persons employed during the peak
13   activity.  These facilities are truly multi-purpose and
14   include all of the following services:  moorage for our
15   vessels between fishing seasons, shipping and receiving
16   for our vessel fleet and shore plants, purchasing,
17   warehousing vessel processing equipment storage, process
18   equipment overall, fishing gear storage, and of course,
19   vessel repair and maintenance as well as fabrication of
20   new process equipment for vessels and shore plants.  We
21   employ over 190 subcontractors at various times
22   throughout the year at both locations.
23        We have no dry dock capability at either facility,
24   which makes us dry dock customers to most of the
25   shipyards throughout Puget Sound when needed for our
0071
 1   fleet.  One of our most active trawlers is actually going
 2   up on dry dock this morning at Todd Shipyard here in
 3   Seattle.  One of our fish tenders has been up on dry dock
 4   at Marine Industries Northwest in Tacoma for the past
 5   week.
 6        We are members of the North Pacific Fishing Vessel
 7   Owners Association and Puget Sound Shipbuilders
 8   Association, both of whom have OSHA alliances.
 9        I have over 30 years of maritime experience.  I
10   obtained a Bachelor of Science degree in marine
11   engineering from the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy.  I
12   have held a U.S. Coast Guard Chief Engineer's license for
13   steam and motor vessels of any horsepower since 1986.  I
14   sailed on various inspected vessels in the U.S. Merchant
15   fleet following graduation, steadily advancing in
16   responsibility from third engineer to chief engineer.
17        I entered the fishing industry in 1987 as chief
18   engineer on a Bering Sea factory trawler converted from
19   an offshore supply vessel at a small shipyard in Slidell,
20   Louisiana.  I worked on that vessel through the
21   conversion in Louisiana, delivered it to Seattle for
22   final outfitting in early 1988, and subsequently sailed
23   on that vessel and another ship in Alaska as chief
24   engineer for the next ten years.
25        I have been shoreside since 1998 and worked at
0072
 1   Trident Seafoods since 2004.  The past year I've been
 2   transitioning into the role of Alaska Support Engineering
 3   Manager and prior to that I worked directly for Lurilla
 4   Lee in the Trident Seafoods Vessel Safety Department.
 5        Here are a few of my proposed rule comments.
 6   Section 1915.81 on housekeeping.  In Paragraph (g), I
 7   recommend adding the phrase, quote, eliminate as
 8   practical, unquote, with regards to snow and ice on
 9   walking and working surfaces.  It's not always practical
10   or possible to eliminate snow and ice as it occurs.  Some
11   of these comments have already been covered.  I'm
12   probably going to be redundant.  I'll reiterate them for
13   the record.
14        In Paragraph (i), I recommend including the option
15   of ensuring that hoses and electrical cords are kept to
16   the side of a walkway or working surface provided they
17   are not trip hazards or in danger of being damaged.
18        Hanging over or placing under can be difficult in
19   some circumstances due to no under deck access, awkward
20   construction and/or the sheer time needed to run the
21   lines and hoist configurations to complete a quick task.
22        Section 1915.82 on lighting.  Paragraph (b)(7), I
23   recommend referencing a recognized standard for
24   determining appropriate splices insulation such as an
25   NFPA NC 70, Article 400.1 splices.
0073
 1        Paragraph (c), even when we provide portable
 2   handheld light, it will be difficult to ensure each
 3   employee carries a light when they are entering spaces
 4   that may unexpectedly go dark.  Where temporary lighting
 5   from outside sources is provided, it may prove difficult
 6   to ensure portable lights are available in the immediate
 7   area.  Generally in the work and living spaces, of
 8   course, commercial lights are permanently installed and
 9   functional on our vessels.
10        Section 1915.83, utilities.  In the paragraphs on
11   steam supply systems, steam hoses and electric power, I
12   ask that you include in the body of the regulations
13   instead of it being a preamble, a statement, quote,
14   employers are free to ascertain the critical information
15   from a responsible vessel's representative, a contract or
16   any other person who is qualified by training, knowledge
17   or experience to make that determination.  That
18   determination refers to determining those shipboard
19   systems that are in a, quote, safe condition.
20        Section 1915.84, work in confined or isolated
21   spaces.  We request that isolated spaces be defined and a
22   better description of how frequently each shift the
23   worker in these types of spaces should be checked.
24        Section 1915.87, medical circumstances and first
25   aid.  This is certainly a repeat here.  Please note that
0074
 1   outside entities, such as our local fire departments and
 2   Coast Guard use their own response equipment.  Therefore,
 3   we recommend that no more than one basket structure be
 4   required per vessel.
 5        We also ask that we be allowed to use alternative
 6   devices meeting the same criteria as basket stretchers,
 7   such as a sked.
 8        Although we do have AED's available at our facility,
 9   we do not recommend requiring them.  The cost of AED's
10   built to withstand shipyard and shipyard environments
11   remains significant, over $2,500 per unit, and this does
12   not include the reoccurring training costs and the costs
13   of replacing components at expiration dates.
14        Section 1915.89, control of hazardous energy,
15   lockout/tagout.  These requirements must be feasible and
16   reasonable for our shipyard applications.  We must be
17   allowed to rely on system experts who isolate hazardous
18   energy.  I ask that you develop a control of hazardous
19   energy program and associated regulations by working with
20   the affected stakeholders and our OSHA alliances.  As
21   you've already heard, we strongly support the development
22   of one standard, 1915.89, as the single standard for
23   servicing ship systems on board vessels.
24        But the way, I want to confirm that our ship's crews
25   do frequently perform service work on our vessels, both
0075
 1   off site and on their way while under OSHA's
 2   jurisdiction.
 3        Section 1915.93, motor vehicle safety equipment,
 4   operation and maintenance.  This regulation requiring the
 5   employer to ensure all employees are wearing their seat
 6   belts in a personal motor vehicle will be challenging as
 7   we will only be able to routinely check that as the
 8   vehicle enters in with the gate guard.  We do not have
 9   dedicated travel lanes for vehicles, bicycles or
10   pedestrians at our facilities.  However, we do tape off
11   temporary walkways when crewing our fishing vessels, and
12   by that I mean when we're letting the vessel crews on for
13   them to travel north to Alaska.  So we put in temporary
14   walkways so that they can get on the gate, directly to
15   the vessel, that kind of thing, with caution tape.
16        Thank you again for the opportunity to take part in
17   these hearings.  Trident Seafoods and others in the
18   fishing industry look forward to working with you in
19   producing an updated version of the shipyard employment
20   regulations to meet our common safety goals.
21             JUDGE GEE:  Thank you.  Mr. Hodne.
22             MR. HODNE:  Hello, I'm Kim Hodne, and I
23   appreciate the opportunity to be here to testify.
24        I started my career in the shipyard industry as a
25   laborer, moving up to a painter, serving on the company's
0076
 1   safety committee to the confined space rescue team, and
 2   in 1996 became a certified shipyard competent person.  I
 3   actually owe a debt of gratitude to OSHA for my
 4   accidental career in safety.
 5        It was the September 1990 rule change, the clean
 6   shaven clause.  Due to my baby face, I could not shave,
 7   and when I approached the owner of Dakota Creek with my
 8   doctor's note, I was kind of floored when he said they
 9   didn't want to lose me and wanted to keep a person that
10   came into the shipyard, and I was fortunate to be moved
11   to the safety department.
12        It was my pleasure to have as teacher and mentor Mr.
13   Killingworth, whom I have the distinct pleasure of
14   sitting on the panel with today to teach me and bring me
15   up in the ranks of safety.
16        The next milestone for me came in May 2000.  That's
17   when I was recruited by the regulatory agency, WISHA for
18   the position of compliance officer.  This was also an
19   accident.  Because of the physician's prerequisite, they
20   had to go outside the department to hire.
21        I also followed through with the hiring process
22   because we were appealing a WISHA citation at the time,
23   and I didn't want to rock the boat.  I had a job, and I
24   loved it.  I love working in the shipyard industry.  It's
25   an industry that as a boy from Iowa, it amazes me every
0077
 1   day.  I pinch myself for the opportunity to do what I get
 2   to do.
 3        So when the opportunity for employment came, I once
 4   again had to approach my boss with the news out of left
 5   field, much like the clean shaven rule, I will never
 6   forget his reply or his reaction.  He told me to take the
 7   job, it would be good for the industry to have someone
 8   from the shipbuilding industry versus non-industry
 9   inexperienced inspectors we currently had to deal with.
10   Coat ties, as they were known.
11        He also told me if I couldn't handle the politics
12   and the bureaucrats, I would always have a job back at
13   Dakota Creek.  It was a win/win situation for me and a
14   great education.
15        The point of this story is that I have been part of
16   all three sides, employee, regulatory and shipyard
17   safety.  I know what it takes to do the job, and I
18   understand how rules are to be interpreted and how to
19   apply them and how to motivate a workforce to comply to
20   understand it is not just an idea of being safe, we have
21   to be compliant at the same time.  Just because we are
22   working safe doesn't mean that we're in compliance with
23   the rules.
24        First I would like to address OSHA's longstanding
25   tradition of Subpart F that applies to shipyard
0078
 1   employment, regardless of geographic location of the
 2   shipyard activities.  Geographic location can make all
 3   the difference in the cost and practicality of the
 4   implemented rule.
 5        And I understand the fact that regulations can't be
 6   written differently for all regions of the country, but
 7   San Diego and their 14 inches of precipitation a year is
 8   not even a drop in the bucket compared to our rainforest
 9   location with 165 inches of rain per year.  It seems that
10   we are all under wet, slippery conditions constantly.
11   Trust me, if any workforce is adapted to working in wet
12   conditions, we are.
13        So, again, I would quote your preamble.  Whenever
14   practical, standards shall be expressed in terms of
15   objective criteria of the performance desired.
16        With regard to snow and ice removal, I asked our
17   yard superintendent for his thoughts.  He is 70 years old
18   and a lifelong Alaskan.  It would be inappropriate to
19   quote him, so I'll paraphrase.  Removing snow and ice as
20   it occurs is not reasonable.  Providing safe access in a
21   timely manner is reasonable.  The steel foreman chimed
22   in, trust me, the proposed 1915.81 (d), "The employer
23   shall provide appropriate waterproof footgear, such as
24   rubber overboots."  There's ketchikan sneakers.  Even my
25   15-month-old granddaughter has a pair.
0079
 1        ASB has a 100 percent steel-toed boot policy, and
 2   I'm sure we buy more steel-toed rubber boots than anyone
 3   in the country.  And if we had to buy two pair per year
 4   for each employee at a cost of $75 each, the annual cost
 5   would be close to $20,000 a year.  That is just in rubber
 6   boots.
 7        I passed the rule proposal to our yard frontline
 8   foremen and supervisors with an experience range of eight
 9   to 20 years and including all trades.  There is a side
10   note to make at this point.  Our workforce is gray, it's
11   across the board, it's all trades.  There is no legacy
12   workers today like there were four years ago.  The kids
13   today are brainwashed into thinking they have to go to
14   college.  They get a job, get their $50,000.  A year
15   after they get their degree, you will see a blue collar
16   worker like their fathers were.  If this same trend
17   continues, in the not too distant future the tradesmen
18   will be earning $50,000 and the computer geek will get 15
19   bucks an hour.
20        The mature workforce is more fragile, but absolutely
21   works safer and smarter than what they did 25 years ago.
22   We are not our father's, and we are not our grandfather's
23   workforce.  Everyone has worked in and under the OSHA
24   jurisdiction.  If they're under 50, all they know is
25   OSHA.  We have moved, we are not what we were 30 years
0080
 1   ago at the inception of the OSHA rules.
 2        The painters were amazed at the notion of adding
 3   their department to the world of the 10-second time of
 4   quick drench.  This is to them ridiculous when working in
 5   the bottom of vessels and tanks.  They say, hey, we
 6   already have high vac and full tanks on, what's the
 7   problem.  We are not going to risk injury getting out of
 8   confined spaces just because we got splashed with paint
 9   or solvents.  That's why we wear PPE, and that's why we
10   do a job hazardous analysis before starting a job.
11        Our company is very job hazardous analysis centered.
12   Every job -- if I walked up to the welders doing their
13   work, painters, I will ask for their job hazard analysis,
14   which every man involved in the operation will have been
15   a part of developing the JHA and will have signed off on
16   it.  If there are particular things about the operation
17   that they are going through that are edging on what
18   compliance with the standard would be, it's covered in
19   the JHA.  They talk about it, they're trained about it,
20   they recognize the hazardous, and it actually helps
21   production in the job flow because they have to stop and
22   figure out all the steps they go through, not just
23   recognizing all the hazards, but recognizing the job
24   process at the same time.
25        We have -- that is probably the hallmark of our
0081
 1   safety program is the fact that job hazardous analysis
 2   occur with everything including the sweeping down of the
 3   shop, because there are hazards involved with sweeping
 4   down the shop.  Everybody has a job hazardous analysis.
 5        If OSHA could just make one standard, you will have
 6   a job hazardous analysis for everything you do, and if a
 7   compliance officer showed up and he wanted to see it, it
 8   would be covered.  If it wasn't covered, that would be
 9   problem.  I know that's expensive, but nonetheless job
10   hazard analysis take us a long way and protect our
11   workers.
12        In my three and a half years at Alaska Ship and Dry
13   Dock, the ambulance has never shown up, the yard in its
14   entirety has never had a fatality, never had an
15   amputation, maybe a few minor stitches, foreign bodies in
16   the eye, but our owner is safety first.  That is the
17   mantra.  Everybody walks out the gate at the end of the
18   day in the same way and in the same condition they came
19   in at the beginning of the workday.  It is not something
20   that is pushed from the bottom up, as is the case most of
21   the time; this is pushed from the top down.  We can use
22   it, we can live buy it, and it is the way that we work.
23        The volunteer firefighters we have laughed at the
24   idea of the basket stretchers scattered all around the
25   yard.  When their department responds, they need to be
0082
 1   the ones to wrap an injured worker in their gear that
 2   they trained with and use, not that of the workforce.
 3   They're untrained people.  There is a liability risk that
 4   is not acceptable to them and the injury in their care.
 5   They are the pros, not us.
 6        The language of current rule 1915.98 (b), this
 7   paragraph does not apply where ambulance services which
 8   are available are known to carry such stretchers.  So
 9   it's already there.  Why fix that which is not broken.
10   There is a stretcher rule there and it applies and it
11   makes sense.
12        In closing, I would first like to apologize if I
13   come across as rude or impertinent.  It's not my
14   intention.  OSHA needs to rid themselves of lawyers until
15   the very end, get them out of the rulemaking right.  The
16   biggest problem with the standards is that they are not
17   user friendly.  The legalese confuses the common man and
18   is not needed.  It just needs to be CYA approach to rule
19   writing.  The best written standards in the country are
20   right here in Wasington state.
21        Seven years ago Governor Gary Locke gave executive
22   order for clearer rule writing.  Washington state's WISHA
23   program has the most simply understood, clearest written
24   rules that I've ever came across.  OSHA needs to think
25   about that.  They need to write the rules to be user
0083
 1   friendly to where I can hand them to our supervisors and
 2   our foremen.  They can read them and they can interpret
 3   them and without question they can realize what they need
 4   to do.
 5        Thank you.
 6             JUDGE GEE:  Thank you very much.
 7        Mr. John Killingsworth.
 8             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Thank you.  In my 10
 9   minutes, I probably won't be able to say as much.
10        I'm John Killingsworth.  I bring 43 years of work
11   experience in various industries, mostly manufacturing.
12   Eighteen of those years has been in shipyards.  I have a
13   couple of engineering degrees from the University of
14   Washington, and I am currently employed by Dakota Creek
15   Industries, and I thought we were a small shipyard, but I
16   guess we're a medium shipyard, medium-sized shipyard by
17   the discussion I heard today.  We're located in
18   Anacortes, Washington.
19        I speak on behalf of the Puget Sound Shipbuilders
20   Association, and I'm glad to be able to do that.  We are
21   an association of professionals and competing businesses
22   who are in similar jobs.  We get together on a regular
23   basis and work together on educational and regulatory
24   issues.
25        I got into the business of saving lives about 15
0084
 1   years ago and daily deal with confined space issues that
 2   our workers face.  Every job presents its unique
 3   conditions, and they all require analysis and planning in
 4   order to successfully meet our customers' needs while
 5   ensuring a safe workplace.
 6        Through daily job hazardous analysis, we identify
 7   the risks associated with accomplishing the necessary
 8   tasks and engineer methods that minimize risks common to
 9   heavy industrial environment.
10        I'd like to make some comments on the preamble.  On
11   page 72453, I'd like to quote a few lines under Hazards.
12   "Working in shipyards is one of the riskiest occupations
13   in the United States.  Shipyard employees are at risk due
14   to the nature of their work."
15        Down a little bit, "The hazards associated with
16   these work activities are heightened because they are
17   often performed outdoors in all kinds of weather, on
18   board vessels, in confined or enclosed spaces.
19        "The safe coordination of these work activities is
20   also complicated by the fact that most shipyards are
21   multi-employer work sites where shipyard employees,
22   ship's crew, contractors and subcontractors work
23   side-by-side and often on the same ship's systems at the
24   same time.
25        "The combination of these hazards presents a
0085
 1   significant risk of injury to shipyard employees."
 2        I'll tell you, quite frankly, I find this preamble
 3   overly exaggerated and unnecessary, I think.  Why is it
 4   necessary to make such inflammatory statements?  If I had
 5   read this prior to applying to work in a shipyard, I
 6   probably would have had second thoughts, because I didn't
 7   know it was so dangerous.
 8        Anyway, then the section goes on a little further,
 9   and it says, "As this section illustrates, OSHA believes
10   the proposed rule will significantly reduce those risks."
11        Well, if I read -- in this section -- okay, let me
12   get lost a little bit.  The section goes on, okay.  Down
13   a little further there is a table.  Table 1, 2002 Injury
14   and Illness Data Comparisons.  The section presents
15   numbers that would scare anyone if you didn't realize
16   that it compares apples with oranges.  You can't compare
17   shipbuilding with the total private sector or even
18   cleaning manufacturers.
19        Personally I work with real people with real skills
20   and together we simply accomplish more than most of the
21   private sector.  These inflammatory statements diminish
22   the thousands of tens of thousands of workers across the
23   nation.  And don't forget, these are the people that are
24   generating the tax dollars that pay governments and
25   salaries.
0086
 1        Now, I get back to the section where it says OSHA
 2   believes the proposed rule significantly reduces those
 3   risks.  You know, the numbers in the table, any numbers
 4   in any table can be made to say anything you want.  But
 5   to use these numbers as justification for the next level
 6   of detail in regulation is simply wrong.  You know, we're
 7   all in the business of reducing risk, we simply disagree
 8   on the way to accomplish it.
 9        I was exposed to more risk and experienced more
10   hazards driving the 100 miles to this hearing this
11   morning than I'm sure I was exposed to for the last month
12   in the shipyard.  Let's deal with some specifics.
13        On lighting, 1915.82.  There again the section
14   starts out with a table of numbers.  Not that I have a
15   problem with these numbers.  In fact, the numbers in this
16   table on lumens for specific work areas are somewhat
17   reasonable and they're achievable.  But in my 43 years of
18   work experience, I've never had to carry a light meter
19   into any work area I've been in.  In order to comply with
20   this section, however, I guess I'll have to.  Will it
21   reduce risk?  I don't think so.
22        1915.82 (c), handheld portable lights.  You've heard
23   a lot about that.  But under the current wording, this
24   wording implies that the use of a helmet-mounted portable
25   light would be a violation.  I wouldn't say I would have
0087
 1   to hold a handheld portable light in order to comply.
 2   You know, there's been so many advances in flashlight
 3   products, too, why can't you just call them flashlights.
 4   It's not an issue of being handheld, and it is portable,
 5   and everybody understands what you mean by a flashlight.
 6        1915.82 (c)(3), "The employer will ensure that only
 7   explosion-proof, self-contained handheld portable lights
 8   are used in areas that are not gas-free."  The way I
 9   interpret that and the way I'm sure a diligent inspector
10   would interpret that, this means that a tank cleaner
11   entering an engine room prior to a marine chemist
12   inspection must use that kind of a flashlight.
13        Now, these flashlights don't work for that.  They
14   are not explosion-proof.  And I was going to bring a
15   sample to show you what one looks like and intrinsically
16   say explosion-proof handheld light.  I personally
17   couldn't.  I can't afford them.  The small one was $300,
18   the bigger one was $500.  And if you put a tank light
19   into a confined space, you're talking $2,100.  So I think
20   there is a specific case here where OSHA has
21   underestimated the cost to industry of such a
22   requirement.
23        Remember, our industry is so competitive that such
24   costs are not passed onto the customers.  It comes right
25   out of whatever profit might be left over at the end of
0088
 1   the job.
 2        1915.84, confined spaces.  You've heard the
 3   discussion about the definition of isolated spaces versus
 4   confined spaces, and I think you need to do some work on
 5   the definition of isolated spaces.  We don't really know
 6   what that means.
 7        We understand fully what confined spaces means,
 8   because we understand 29 CFR 1915 Subpart B.  This
 9   happens to be the document that PSSA fully endorses, and
10   through our local chemists has conducted several training
11   seminars to its members.  We find it thorough, we find it
12   workable, and we want to offer our compliments to the
13   authors.  It would be difficult to improve on it.
14        I would encourage OSHA to follow the lead of some
15   other agencies, some other branches of the regulating
16   community trying to instill some reasoning into the
17   rules.  Recently, Congress passed the Clean Boating Act
18   of 2008.  And Senator Maria Cantwell's office explained
19   that the bill directs the EPA, that is the Environmental
20   Protection Agency, to develop reasonable management
21   practices.  And it goes on further and says to protect
22   boaters from unnecessary government red tape.
23        In response to that, the regulated community through
24   Vote US hailed this as a fabulous victory for common
25   sense.  And it just goes to show what can be done when
0089
 1   the voting public, the marine industry and our elected
 2   representatives in Congress were all together.
 3        In another recent case, EPA administrator Steven
 4   Johnson signed a final rule October 7 that would
 5   encourage businesses to recycle hazardous secondary
 6   materials instead of disposing of them as waste.  The new
 7   rule streamlines the regulation.  I think that's the
 8   point.  The new job as regulators you must be aware of
 9   the interim consequence of your good intentions.
10        The proposal by OSHA to regulate to regulate working
11   conditions at shipyards is anything but streamlining.  In
12   fact, it goes to great length, far too much detail in an
13   effort to be thorough.  What it creates is a Bible of
14   opportunity for a diligent inspector to easily fill his
15   quota of fines and citations.  It needs to focus on what
16   will truly reduce risk and then stop at a reasonable
17   level of detail.
18        Thank you.
19             JUDGE GEE:  Thank you, Mr. Killingsworth.  Are
20   there any questions from the audience for the panel.
21        From the OSHA group.
22             MS. SHORTALL:  We'll start with Ms. Watson.
23             MS. WATSON:  Good morning, thank you for
24   coming.  I have kind of a mix of questions some will be
25   individual based on your testimony and the rest will be
0090
 1   for the whole panel to answer.  I'd like to start with
 2   Rick.
 3        You had mentioned your vehicle, that you don't
 4   really have stop signs or that sort of thing.  I'm just
 5   curious, have there been any accidents at your facility
 6   regarding vehicles?
 7             MR. BROWN:  Not to my knowledge.
 8             MS. WATSON:  And then you mentioned that you
 9   work with a lot of contractors, and I was just curious
10   how do you deal with that, especially with
11   lockout/tagout.  How do you kind of make sure that
12   everybody is in the loop, you know, like with group
13   lockout/tagout?
14             MR. BROWN:  We've developed a set of contractor
15   safety guidelines that we have our subcontractors sign,
16   and in that they have to follow, for instance, on like a
17   tagout specifically, they have to come on and actually
18   use the lockout/tagout on Rule 1910.127 on our vessels
19   when they perform work for us.  Is that what you are
20   getting at?
21             MS. WATSON:  Yes.  Are you getting that, like
22   if you are hanging tags or locks, are you actually
23   issuing them the materials to do that or is it they are
24   bringing it?
25             MR. BROWN:  They have to bring their own at
0091
 1   this time.
 2             MS. WATSON:  You've also mentioned about the
 3   cords and hoses, kind of asking OSHA to kind of have an
 4   exemption to just push them aside.  Can you just explain
 5   to me what you guys do when you're working on vessels
 6   regarding hoses and cords?
 7             MR. BROWN:  Very similar to Al's testimony
 8   earlier today.  As is on any vessel, you try and make a
 9   reasonable walkway, whether it's with S hooks or trees or
10   any combination therefore and try and make it as safe as
11   possible for passage.
12             MS. WATSON:  Today, Kim and John, you guys both
13   discussed job hazardous analysis, and I was wondering if
14   you could go into that a little bit, maybe give an
15   example of situations when you would use analysis like
16   that.
17             MR. HODNE:  We use it for all the operations.
18   It's a part of what they discuss with the employees
19   before they go out.  If you're in production release, for
20   instance, and inserted on the hull of a ship, they will
21   send down the three or four, whoever is going to be doing
22   that, and they will recognize what they need to do, what
23   habits will be recommended.  They will look at staging in
24   place, they do a fire watch on the inside, they do fire
25   watches on the outside, all of the PPE might be required,
0092
 1   they go through the steps of the process with regards to
 2   that production and release the job they're going to do.
 3   It's actually a three-step affair.
 4        It's the job steps, the hazards involved and the
 5   abatement of.  It's three columns, straight across, this
 6   is what we're doing, this is the hazards that are a part
 7   of that, and this is how we will abate that hazard, be it
 8   ear plugs, be it whatever.  Those are expected with every
 9   job.
10        A lot of jobs are routine.  They're done many times
11   over and over through the year, so at that point we've
12   created a library where you can actually go online, pull
13   down the generic data for that operation, that particular
14   process, and then depending obviously if there is any
15   changes, special conditions, it's raining, it's snowing,
16   it happens to be a sun shiny day, they might not need to
17   do snow removal before they have to do it.  But then they
18   can read that particular hazard analysis for the
19   operation.
20             MS. WATSON:  Who is in charge of that, a
21   supervisor?
22             MR. HODNE:  Every employee is trained on it.
23   Every employee is responsible for them, whichever lead.
24   If the three of us were to go off and do a job and none
25   of us were a supervisor, but when the supervisor assigned
0093
 1   the three of us to do the work, you get an JHA done,
 2   bring it by me for review.  And the supervisor would sign
 3   off on it.  And quite often supervisors on new processes,
 4   they'll bring me the job hazard analysis.  We do job
 5   hazard analysis even for the very routine haul out and
 6   launch process of our dry dock.  We do that 100 times a
 7   year, and it couldn't be more routine.
 8        But if the wind is blowing, if it's pouring out, is
 9   it sunny, is it raining, then I review and sign off one
10   every one of those job hazard analysis, and we have a
11   safety meeting right there at the gangway.  The job
12   hazard analysis is gone over with our whole crew, they
13   all sign off on it, I've already reviewed it, and we go
14   through, and that's done one very single thing we do.
15             MS. WATSON:  Could you just give me an idea of
16   how much time that takes out of your day to do that job
17   hazard analysis, just on average?
18             MR. HODNE:  On average, it's 10 to 20 minutes,
19   I suppose.  We've been doing it for over a year and a
20   half it's been mandated, so they are better.  In the
21   beginning, they complained, like workers, it's their
22   right to do, to complain when you put something extra on
23   them.
24        Today it's expected and it has been streamlined, it
25   happens easily.  And like I said earlier, it actually
0094
 1   increases the flow of production because they don't have
 2   to stop and think about what they're doing, and it lays
 3   out all the processes and the steps that they are going
 4   to do as well as the hazards.
 5             MS. WATSON:  John, would you say it's the same
 6   for you?
 7             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Yes.  I would like to build
 8   on the job hazard analysis issue.  It does not always
 9   have to be a formal process.  In order to explain that,
10   you have to understand the nature of our business.
11        There are two actual businesses that we're involved
12   in, new building, which is working with nice clean models
13   and a more structured environment, and the other is ship
14   repair.  Ship repair is more of a discovery process.  The
15   owner will come into port thinking he has a list of
16   things he wants done.  We will look over the job as much
17   as possible, but in the process of making the
18   preparations to accomplish what he wants you to do, you
19   discover that there are other things that need to be
20   done, some of which present very unique conditions and
21   hazards, and that has to be dealt with.
22        When an employee encounters a situation like that
23   work stops, heads get together, they work it out with the
24   owner and the project manager and come up with a suitable
25   solution thereby minimizing any risks to the employee.
0095
 1        But it doesn't always get written down.  You have to
 2   understand that the effort takes place, and that's part
 3   of the professional attitude that we've cultured in that
 4   part of our yard.
 5             MS. WATSON:  Do you have some sort of overall
 6   safety procedures that just say a hazard analysis will be
 7   conducted?
 8             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Well, that happens actually
 9   first at the project manager's level when he and the
10   customer come up with the list of work in the beginning.
11   And then daily revisions to that occur on the job.
12             MS. WATSON:  Kim, and actually John as well,
13   you didn't mention the size and the number of employees.
14   I don't think you did.  I apologize if you did.  Could
15   you please just tell me the size.
16             MR. HODNE:  About 125 production employees.
17             MS. WATSON:  And how large is your facility?
18             MR. HODNE:  Two and a half, maybe three acres.
19             MS. WATSON:  And, John, can you please tell me
20   at your facility.
21             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  It depends what we've had
22   going on.  I've been there when we've had 30 employees.
23   Right now we're blessed with having hired our 300th
24   recently.  Sometimes we're doing work in two acres;
25   otherwise we might be spread out over 10.
0096
 1        We happen to be on a piece of property in the Port
 2   of Anacortes marine terminal.  So as demands increase, we
 3   can spread out and use more, lease more of the land
 4   that's available for our work.  Right now we are blessed
 5   with enough work to keep a lot of people working.  I
 6   guess we've grown to be classified as large.  I think
 7   it's small, but let's settle for medium.
 8             MS. WATSON:  John, thank you for bringing that
 9   hard hat with the light on it.  Is that normally what
10   your employees use?
11             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  These?
12             MS. WATSON:  Right.
13             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Oh, more and more you'll
14   find versions of the head helmet-mounted light.  It's
15   just hands-free and more practical.
16             MR. HODNE:  Less of a hassle.
17             MS. WATSON:  In most cases you guys are wearing
18   hard hats, or the employees are wearing hard hats?
19             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  All cases.
20             MS. WATSON:  That's something that would be
21   easy to --
22             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Oh, yeah.  Some of these
23   new products that are coming out on the market making it
24   easy and affordable.  The new LED technology that we're
25   experiencing has spurned a whole bunch of new products.
0097
 1   Like I said, I wish I could have brought one of those
 2   intrinsically safe flashlights down to show you, but
 3   sorry.
 4             MS. WATSON:  That's fine.
 5        I guess since we're on the lighting topic, in case
 6   of a loss of power -- and this is for the whole panel --
 7   what kind of procedures do you have in place if the power
 8   goes off?
 9             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  I'll do you one better.
10   The typical on a Washington state ferry outboard might be
11   a space that you crawl into.  I know it's kind of hard to
12   regulate it because I'm an SEP, but it's lined with what
13   they call a cold tar epoxy.  It's kind of like a musky
14   version of rhinoliner that you've seen on cars.  It's
15   just a very black substance, it's very resistant to
16   corrosion and rust.  That's the protection you want to
17   prevent the sips, but it soaks up every bit of light you
18   can possibly put in there.  I don't care how many lights
19   you put in there, it's tough to light a space like that.
20        I could guarantee we could not comply with the lumen
21   levels prescribed in that one table if you took
22   measurements in those kinds of spaces.  They are the
23   kinds of spaces that we normally regularly have to go
24   into.  If the lights go out, every single one of our
25   employees are told that they better have some means of
0098
 1   emergency lighting.  It's easy nowadays with the
 2   flashlight technology we have to get enough light to get
 3   out of such spaces.
 4        generally speaking, though, when the lights go out,
 5   the call goes out to the electrician to figure out why.
 6   Obviously if it's a breaker that's thrown, it's a matter
 7   of chasing it down, and within five minutes the light is
 8   restored.
 9        So normally if there is a problem for a person in a
10   very dark space with very little light that he cannot get
11   out, he's advised to just stay put.
12             MR. HODNE:  For us it's a part of new employee
13   orientation.  It's 100 percent every employee when going
14   into any spaces will have a portable light with them.
15   There is signs on stores, we provide them to them,
16   they're right there.  We go through literally thousands
17   of flashlights annually.  Don't get busted in a tank
18   without your flashlight.
19             MR. BROWN:  We don't require it, but I would
20   say the vast majority of our employees that do go into
21   those kind of areas carry their own flashlights, and if
22   the lights go out, the same thing, the call goes out and
23   we get the lights back on as quickly as possible.  And
24   they should just shelter in place.  I think that's pretty
25   much standard practice with us as well.
0099
 1             MS. WATSON:  And you have responders that you
 2   can shelter in place that would come by and check on
 3   them?
 4             MR. BROWN:  The lead man on that particular
 5   vessel for us.  For us, like I said, we work on several
 6   vessels.  At our facility the work crews on each vessel
 7   and that would be the same if the power goes off on only
 8   one vessel.  The lead man usually gets the radio and the
 9   response will be rapid.
10             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  May I comment on the
11   frequency of checking on employees in confined spaces?
12             MS. WATSON:  Yes, please.
13             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Obviously there is a
14   requirement that the lead check on his employees.  The
15   standard says something like frequently or regularly or
16   whatever that is.  But if anything happens unfortunate,
17   there would always be the case that we didn't check
18   frequently enough.  We normally have several breaks
19   during the day.  Anybody who doesn't show up obviously is
20   chased down and accounted for.  So I would say four times
21   a day is what we usually do.
22        But obviously there are jobs that don't last that
23   long.  They may be in a space for a few minutes at a
24   time, and that employee while he's in there may not be
25   checked up on.  So that requirement needs to have some
0100
 1   reason added to it.
 2             MS. WATSON:  Now, is that with all spaces, the
 3   four times during that shift or day, or is it just
 4   confined spaces?
 5             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  In our case we can pretty
 6   much check on employees four times a day, but in confined
 7   spaces, that's where we're talking about, the need is to
 8   be very diligent and perhaps more frequently would be
 9   adequate.
10        But like I say, if anything happens, it may not be
11   frequent enough.
12             MS. WATSON:  For the whole -- go ahead.
13             MR. HODNE:  For us, we all have our ID badges,
14   like many of us do now, and when anybody goes into any
15   space on the guard that is around that hatch or whatever,
16   that ID tag is clipped on on the confined space permit on
17   the tag right there.  So when the supervisors or anybody
18   is walking around, you know you can see if you stick your
19   head in there, if I have three tags, I better have three
20   men in the tank, and if there is four men in the tank, I
21   want to know why I'm missing a tag.
22        On the other side of that, if I have three tags and
23   only two guys down in the tank, if the other guy didn't
24   take a tag with him when he went up to the store to get
25   equipment, I want to know that because in case of an
0101
 1   emergency, we're going to be looking for three, and if we
 2   only see two come out, he can explain to my widow why I
 3   went down into a hole looking for a ghost that wasn't
 4   there and I ended up dead.  So we press those very hard.
 5             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Our system works
 6   differently.  Personally, as an SCP, I'm going to tanks
 7   alone.  It may be 20 spaces on a vessel that I visit
 8   every single day.  I'm not going to hang a tag at every
 9   hatch as I go in and come out.  That would be
10   impractical.
11             MS. WATSON:  Rick, how about you for confined
12   spaces?
13             MR. BROWN:  We don't have a formal system with
14   tags.  I'd be working, again, with a lead man or on a
15   particular vessel.  Frequent checks is same thing, in and
16   out for short visits, like John said, so I don't have a
17   formal system in place other than frequent checks and a
18   lead man that is responsible for a particular crew on a
19   vessel.  And if they are in a confined space, someone
20   will be checking on a fairly often basis.
21             MS. WATSON:  And for the panel, do any of your
22   yards or your procedures involve end-of-shift musters or
23   end-of-task musters?
24             MR. HODNE:  Absolutely.  The supervisors have
25   to account for the timecard at the end of the day.  At
0102
 1   the end of the day he's right there, and at the end of
 2   the shift he's gathering timecards.  If he's missing
 3   somebody who has punched out and not punched out, and he
 4   knows that he doesn't have anyone on extended hours, he's
 5   going to go and find out where this person is.  They look
 6   at it as a guy walking around and he's getting special
 7   hours.  He wants to know because he has to account for
 8   his timecards at the end of the shift and all of the
 9   numbers have to check out.  If he has one that hasn't
10   punched out, he's looking for that person.
11             MS. WATSON:  Let's shift gears a little bit to
12   medical and first aid.  Could each one of you talk a
13   little bit about your program as far as training,
14   training personnel on-site.
15             MR. BROWN:  I'll start.  Probably all of our
16   lead men and supervisors are first aid and CPR trained.
17   We have a training room on site and conduct training,
18   have conducted CPR and first aid and AED training.  We
19   have first aid kits located around the facility, fixed
20   and portable, in several locations.  We have an AED at
21   each facility as well.
22             MS. WATSON:  What's the number of AED's that
23   you have, just one per facility?
24             MR. BROWN:  Just one at each one of my
25   facilities, yes.
0103
 1             MR. HODNE:  I would say that probably 15 to 20
 2   percent of our workforce is first aid/CPR trained, and
 3   the ambulance and first responders are three blocks from
 4   our facility.  So there is a quick response there.
 5        But in all honesty, the reality of it is they go
 6   through the training.  I've been through it a dozen times
 7   or more, as many people have, but they never get to use
 8   it.  In the shipyard, a majority of what goes on is
 9   Band-aid first aid.  You get a cut, you clean it, you put
10   salve it, put a Band-Aid on, do whatever.
11        For emergency trauma technicians, we rely on the
12   experts.  They don't use it much.  It's almost a hazard
13   in itself to have all of these first aid trained people.
14   We all can put Band-Aids on.  We can do our own first
15   aid.  We grow up through life doing that.
16        To put that requirement on them is almost a hazard
17   because they're stopping, they're fumbling, they're
18   trying to remember what they were trained to do.  They're
19   scared to death to get it wrong.  They don't want the
20   liability of it.  The Good Samaritan rule does not always
21   apply.
22        But there again, they've got each other's back.
23   They watch out for each other.  They will render aid to
24   whomever needs it, even if they are not first aid
25   trained.  If I am not first aid trained, and John and I
0104
 1   are working, and he gets a cut and he needs something,
 2   common sense, I'm an adult, I'm a thinking person.  I'm
 3   going to render aid.  I'm not going to not render aid
 4   just because I've not been through a first aid class.
 5        I guarantee the majority of the people in this room
 6   have probably never had to deal with a heart attack,
 7   would not even be able to recognize when CPR was or was
 8   not needed or an AED.  Is it a diabetic, is it a diabetic
 9   reaction, is there something else going on there or are
10   they having a heart attack?
11        It sounds good, it feels good.  It allows you to
12   train people in it.  But to put the emphasis on it like
13   we do, I have probably 20 first aid kits around, and I
14   put Band-Aids in baggies with a Band-Aid, it's in the
15   baggy and the wrapper, take it out and fling it on there
16   so they can see, oh, that's a fingertip Band-Aid.  I
17   mean, we facilitate as best we can.  I know it's never
18   going to come out of the rule, but if you look at it
19   board picture, there's a hazard to the whole first aid
20   rule also.
21        I don't want somebody that was trained a year and a
22   half ago to come in and aiding me and he's trying to
23   think, oh, pulling a card out of his pocket, what am I
24   supposed to do.  Because I was trained in what I'm
25   supposed to do, not everybody deals with stress in
0105
 1   emergency situations the same.  Some are good at it and
 2   some are absolutely horrid at it.
 3             MS. WATSON:  You mentioned a short response
 4   time.  How long does it usually take?
 5             MR. HODNE:  Two minutes.  We drill those.
 6             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  We're three minutes.  We're
 7   in a small town.  Anacortes has a small fire department,
 8   but they are very professional.  We rely on them for
 9   paramedic services.  We actually have had their people
10   down and participated in our confined space training
11   programs and our shipyard competent person programs.  And
12   when we do train, we probably train, oh, between nine and
13   12 of their staff in shipyard competent person skills.
14        They do have equipment, but they still do rely on
15   shipyard when it comes to anything that might happen on a
16   vessel.  We've come to an agreement that the shipyard
17   will, through its, you might say its confined space
18   rescue team, handle the victim, as it were, from the
19   vessel to the ground, and then we would rely on the
20   paramedics to provide the victim care during that period.
21        When the victim hits the ground, however, the
22   paramedics take over using their own equipment and
23   provide whatever is necessary from there.  That's the way
24   our drills go.
25             MS. WATSON:  Do you have a basket stretcher or
0106
 1   a type of stretcher that you would use to transport them
 2   from the vessel to the pier?
 3             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  We have basket stretchers
 4   wherever we may have the need to get somebody off a
 5   vessel.  However, the fire department won't use them.
 6   They insist on using their own backboards and equipment
 7   in those scenarios.
 8             MS. WATSON:  Sanitation.  I was just curious,
 9   do each one of your yards have a designated spot for
10   employees to smoke, eat or drink?
11             MR. HODNE:  We have designated areas where they
12   cannot, and that's probably an easier way to state that.
13   We actually don't allow smoking on board customer
14   vessels, that's foreboden.  At the end of the gangway,
15   yeah.  You're not going to smoke on the vessels.  Because
16   we lease our facility from the state, so it's a
17   state-owned facility, so they can't even smoke in the
18   office buildings and such, so we're kind of regulated
19   that way.  It's more where they cannot.  Everybody knows
20   where they can.
21             MS. WATSON:  So there's adequate signage up to
22   say that.
23             MR. HODNE:  Yes.
24             MS. WATSON:  On a number of the vessels, I
25   know, John, you said you do shipbuilding and ship repair,
0107
 1   but do a lot of them have secondary power sources or are
 2   most of them you're finding it's a primary easy, you
 3   know, lockout or tagout with employees trying to do work?
 4             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  If a vessel is dockside and
 5   not hooked to short power, they would be on their own
 6   generator, but that doesn't happen so often.  Most likely
 7   scenario is they are on shore power, especially if the
 8   vessel is invariably shore powered and nobody is relying
 9   on any of their auxiliary shipboard power.
10             MS. WATSON:  So most of the time you're not
11   having to worry about isolating a secondary source?
12             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Rarely.  I can't think of
13   it.  We put people on shore power, that's it.  We're not
14   going to fire up another facility, mainly because those
15   facilities are water coolant, and once you pull a boat
16   out of the water.
17             MS. WATSON:  Well, I'm just curious.  There is
18   a lot of vessels that have, you know, if we're talking
19   about a military ship, they would have primary and
20   secondary for most of their systems.  So that's why I was
21   just curious with the smaller yards.
22             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  We don't handle military
23   vessels.
24             MS. WATSON:  Right, I understand that.  Is it
25   same for both?
0108
 1             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Yes.
 2             MS. WATSON:  For the entire panel, is your
 3   lockout/tagout system, is it primarily tags, locks; can
 4   you go into a little bit of detail about what you use.
 5             MR. BROWN:  Our system for your shops is locks
 6   and tags, and the vast majority of the equipment we have
 7   in our shops is lockable at the equipment.  So as far as
 8   our power line site, I just kind of want to clarify, we
 9   are small, our actual trade group in Tacoma is
10   probably -- the actual trades people who work on the
11   vessels for us is less than 40 total.  Like I said in my
12   description, our facilities cover a lot of ground for
13   supporting Trident Seafoods.
14        Back to the lockout/tagout, it's mostly lock.
15   Almost everything is lockable on the land side.  And I
16   think we have the same challenges on our vessels as every
17   vessel does as far as a mix of what's lockable and not.
18        At some point you follow that closely enough to the
19   source and we have found ways to lock it out on our
20   vessels as well, at least that's what we strive for.
21             MS. WATSON:  What kind of things do you use to
22   lock them out?
23             MR. BROWN:  Just like the kit that Allen showed
24   yesterday, the clamps for breakers, and we have been able
25   to do retrofits, if we can install lockable breakers and
0109
 1   the lock goes right on.  There's a whole gambit of
 2   equipment that's out there, for example, and we've
 3   supplied every one of our vessels.
 4             MR. HODNE:  Same for us.  The JHA will again
 5   identify what lockout/tagout is necessary, breaker lock,
 6   we need chains for large valves, we'll chain those down.
 7   And it's identified in the job hazard analysis so they
 8   know what they need to do.
 9        The only problem that we have encountered once in my
10   10 years off a ship in dry dock is when the ferry workers
11   came and actually removed one of our locks.  That turned
12   into a blowup, so that ultimately ended up in a contract
13   rewrite for what goes on there.
14        But other than that, it's identified in the job
15   hazard analysis, and it's tagged, it's that simple, all
16   the way down the chains, blanks, whatever the job hazard
17   analysis identifies.
18             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  It depends.  Ideally in
19   shipbuilding tagout seems to be a very effective process,
20   and usually that happens during systems startups.
21   Primarily it's dealing with electrical energy, but in
22   ship repair, you're dealing with all kinds of energies,
23   hydraulic, hematic, electrical, of course.
24        But we have to engineer means of securing these
25   systems even it means blanking out pipe systems before we
0110
 1   can work on them.  And it's very common practice.
 2        But locks don't work on pipes too well unless like
 3   in the case of valves, you're using chains with locks.
 4   Tags and the training and the principles of
 5   lockout/tagout, I found to have been very effective.
 6   Fifteen years ago when I started work there, nobody
 7   understood what lockout/tagout was all about.
 8        So it's been something we've had to build a culture
 9   around, and education has been the most effective tool
10   getting on top of those problems.
11             MS. WATSON:  How often do you do training in
12   lockout/tagout?
13             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  It depends on the new crew
14   that might be coming in.  But for anybody new coming into
15   the yard, they go through an orientation process in
16   general which touches on that, and at the craft level
17   they do regular monthly training sessions as needed as
18   new people come in and join the staff.
19             MS. WATSON:  I just have one final topic or
20   question for the panel.  I was just curious when, John,
21   you had mentioned hooking up to shore power, so dealing
22   with services such as steam and shore power, do you go on
23   board the vessel to inspect prior to to make sure the
24   panels are in safe condition or that sort of thing?
25             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  I personally don't, okay.
0111
 1   But our electrician, foreman, superintendent, whatever,
 2   will have a conference with the boat skipper and the
 3   project manager to ensure that the system he's talking
 4   about is secure and that he might be working on is
 5   secure.
 6        You said steam?
 7             MS. WATSON:  Yes.
 8             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  We don't deal with steam.
 9             MS. WATSON:  So you're just running shore
10   power?
11             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Shore power would consist
12   of a power cord to a certain amperage service to
13   someplace on shore.
14             MR. HODNE:  We do deal with steam, and when I
15   passed around the proposed rule, our facilities guy, and
16   I didn't get it in there because he wrote me two and a
17   half pages in response to this whole steam thing.  And he
18   had a real consternation over the fact of the five times
19   safety factor.  He's calling the vendors trying to find
20   such a hose.  Such a hose does not exist for a feed line.
21   250 psi is what all of ours are rated at, it's what
22   they're stamped at, it's where we work at.
23        But if he's running at 80 or 90 psi, there's not one
24   on the market, it doesn't exist for the steam.  He gets
25   together with the chief engineer of every vessel that
0112
 1   comes in.  Primarily Alaska Green Highway ferries that
 2   use steam and there's only two of those boats, so we know
 3   the vessels quite well.  They talk every time before
 4   going on, and there is no problem.  There's never been a
 5   steam burn, because, there again, safety is the most
 6   important thing.  These guys want to go home at the end
 7   of the day.  Common sense does apply, they're not idiots.
 8   They're thinking men, and they know what it takes to be
 9   safe, and they're proud of the work that they do.
10        So the communication between vessel and shipyard is
11   constant, and familiarity is a good thing.
12             MR. BROWN:  We don't deal with steam at all for
13   supplying our vessels.  For hooking up shore power,
14   typically we -- we have a policy or program like John's
15   where we've got short power cables hooking up to our
16   vessels.  Almost 100 percent of the time when they're on
17   our dock, we're hooked up to shore power.  And we work
18   with the ship's crew when they come in from say a trip
19   from up north, come in from Alaska, tied to the dock, we
20   secure ship's systems, work with the ship's crew to hook
21   up to shore power.
22             MS. WATSON:  Thank you for coming, and please,
23   if there is any questions you weren't asked or you
24   weren't able to comment on, please provide those in the
25   post-hearing comments.
0113
 1             MS. SHORTALL:  Mr. Bolon has questions next.
 2             MR. BOLON:  I don't have any questions, Sarah.
 3             MS. SHORALL:  Mr. Daddura.
 4             MR. DADDURA:  I'm just curious, Mr. Brown, you
 5   talk about maintaining and working on your vessel or
 6   fleet.  Was there ever an occasion where working on the
 7   job it's not typically your vessels?
 8             MR. BROWN:  No.
 9             MR. DADDURA:  Can either one, John or Kim, what
10   type of vessel do you work on, what size?
11             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  We generally work on
12   vessels larger than 85 feet and less than 350.
13             MR. DADDURA:  You spoke of ferries?
14             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Ferries.
15             MR. DADDURA:  All ferries?
16             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  No.  We service the factory
17   trawler market as well, tugs, barges, special services,
18   fire boats, things like that.
19             MR. HODNE:  Pretty much the same for us.  Tugs,
20   barges, fuel barges, all of the Alaska state ferry fleet,
21   one of which is 429 feet, the Columbia.  That is probably
22   the largest ship that we've ever worked on, and that's
23   the only one of that size.  The median average ship is
24   250 feet, so that's primarily where our market focuses.
25             MR. DADDURA:  And you do build ferries,
0114
 1   correct?
 2             MR. HODNE:  Yes, little ones.
 3             MR. DADDURA:  You do build?
 4             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  We have in the past built
 5   ferries.  We repair the current fleet of the Washington
 6   state ferries, but we don't get involved in the
 7   construction of ferries very often.
 8             MR. DADDURA:  Thank you.
 9        Back to working in isolated spaces.  There seems to
10   be some confusion.  We have a confined space standard,
11   Subpart (d) and there is this little blip down here about
12   isolated cases on locations.
13        Is there a time when you send someone to do an
14   errand or to fix something or install pipe bracket or
15   whatever, a small job where he's by himself?
16             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  In a confined space?
17             MR. DADDURA:  Anywhere.
18             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Sure.  Once in a while
19   we'll have a small case where like we say a pipeline
20   breaks, so we have to go in and fix it.  It will take one
21   person maybe a half hour or an hour or something like
22   that.
23             MR. DADDURA:  But you have a time set that he
24   or she reports back?
25             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Correct.
0115
 1             MR. DADDURA:  Before their next job.
 2             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Yes.  Chances are they will
 3   be in and out of that area several times, but if they
 4   forget a tool or if they need another bolt or something
 5   like that, they'll be in and out.  It's easy to check on
 6   them coming and going.
 7             MR. DADDURA:  I think, Rick, you stated you use
 8   1910.147 for lockout/tagout of your vessels in your yard?
 9             MR. BROWN:  That's correct.
10             MR. DADDURA:  Do you gentlemen also use 1910
11   for your vessels as much as you can?
12             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  I'm reticent to say yes
13   because of all the details that I'm not remembering, and
14   I'm not trying to -- that probably does not satisfy you,
15   but I'm sure we attempt to.
16             MR. HODNE:  I'm going to say no simply because
17   I don't look at 1910.  We have a lockout/tagout system.
18   We recognize the systems have to have them.
19             MR. DADDURA:  That's fair and honest.
20             MR. HODNE:  We follow that and tag it out.
21             MR. DADDURA:  I guess for all three of you the
22   question, far from the fact you're not following word for
23   word 1910's requirements, did you all start with 1910 and
24   basically develop your own programs?
25             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Without the document in
0116
 1   front of me going through line by line, I'm reticent to
 2   say yes.  We do have a definite system in place.  Our
 3   electrical foremen and our superintendents supervises
 4   that program.  The other craft foremen understand as it
 5   applies to their forms of energy, they do apply the
 6   principles as relevant.
 7             MR. HODNE:  And again, I'll say no simply
 8   because I don't look at it as 1910; I look it as the
 9   hazard of lockout/tagout and assess it.
10        From our hydraulic shop, we talk about it often, and
11   they recognize all of the hydraulics, the different
12   things they work with, the electricians the same thing.
13   There is crossover.
14        We just approach lockout/tagout as an issue, not as
15   1910 or 1915 or wherever it comes from, you know, this is
16   it.  I know I have the responsibility of protecting the
17   employees, and we have a lockout/tagout need and we have
18   a lockout/tagout program.  It's not a program that I
19   wrote, it's one that I inherited.
20        But from my background, it's what you have to do to
21   get the work done, and everybody goes home at night.  I'm
22   sorry, I just don't look at 1910.  I don't look at the
23   lockout/tagout program the same as you do.
24             MR. DADDURA:  The question is basically where
25   you did you get the information from to start or develop
0117
 1   the idea of protecting your employees by locking out
 2   hazards?
 3             MR. HODNE:  Probably for me as a compliance
 4   officer with WISHA.
 5             MR. DADDURA:  Where did you get it from?
 6             MR. HODNE:  Me?
 7             MR. DADDURA:  Yes.  Did WISHA have their own
 8   lockout/tagout?
 9             MR. HODNE:  Well, my experience is, where my
10   true knowledge of lockout/tagout comes from my three
11   years as a regulatory compliance officer for the State of
12   Washington.
13             MR. DADDURA:  Did you read that somewhere or
14   did you wake up one morning at WISHA and say, Hey, I'm a
15   lockout/tagout expert?
16             MR. HODNE:  No, they trained me on it.
17             MR. DADDURA:  Do you know what standard they
18   trained you on; was it a state standard?
19             MR. HODNE:  It's a WISHA standard.  It's a
20   state-run thing.
21             MR. DADDURA:  I understand.  But you don't know
22   where they got it from?
23             MR. HODNE:  No.
24             MR. DADDURA:  Rick?
25             MR. BROWN:  To the best of my understanding,
0118
 1   1910 is what we tried and built our programs on.
 2             MR. DADDURA:  Thank you.
 3        Walking to working surfaces.  Is there any confusion
 4   there from your standpoint that walking surface is
 5   anything that you walk on or is it a designated walkway
 6   you establish and maintain clear to get from space to
 7   space?
 8             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Have you ever been on a
 9   boat where you tear up all the deck boards and then go to
10   work?
11             MR. DADDURA:  Definitely.
12             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  There is no walkway.  It is
13   all a working surface.  It's very complicated.
14             MR. DADDURA:  When you're going to put that
15   thing back together, do you then have a walkway?
16             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Yes, then there is a
17   walking surface.
18             MR. DADDURA:  It's an established walkway,
19   correct?
20             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Yes.
21             MR. DADDURA:  You try to maintain material free
22   and line free and things of that nature, correct?
23             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  We will try, yes.
24             MR. HODNE:  Same.  They can double as a walking
25   surface and working surface all at once.
0119
 1             MR. DADDURA:  Mr. Brown?
 2             MR. BROWN:  It varies from boat to boat and
 3   vessel to vessel.  They all come together and go in
 4   different directions.
 5             MR. DADDURA:  Fair enough.
 6        That's all I have.
 7             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  By the way, when we're on
 8   the upper deck and put people to work, we designate it as
 9   a hazardous area and call attention to holes and
10   trip-and-fall hazards, so we don't go in there blindly.
11             MS. SHORTALL:  Mr. Perry has some questions
12   next.
13             MR. PERRY:  Just a few quick ones, I think.
14        John, you were talking about the injury rates
15   presented as a preamble earlier.  Could you tell the
16   panel what your recordable injury rate is for the most
17   recent year, if you have that?
18             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  In fact, I looked it up for
19   2006 and it was -- 2006 was 20 and 19.2 in 2007.  And
20   we've been examining those numbers and developing
21   programs to make improvements in that area.
22             MR. PERRY:  That's your total?
23             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  That's the total, yes.
24             MR. PERRY:  Would you know lost workday rate?
25             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  I don't recall.  Kim?
0120
 1             MR. HODNE:  I have one lost day for three
 2   injuries recordable for this year.
 3             MR. PERRY:  Rick?
 4             MR. BROWN:  I don't know the rates off the top
 5   of my head, but for '08 I think we have seven total
 6   recordable injuries, all minor injuries, all minor.
 7             MR. PERRY:  Thank you.
 8        John, you had mentioned before, I think, and correct
 9   me if I'm wrong, I think you said you can't compare
10   injury rates for shipbuilding ship repair with
11   manufacturing rates, I presume construction rates as
12   well.  Would you elaborate on why?
13             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Yeah.  I think comparing
14   shipyard work environment with the total work environment
15   you might see that in communities.  You can't compare
16   flipping burgers with working on steel ships.  It just
17   doesn't work.  The environments are different.
18        And people have to be trained specifically in our
19   environment to survive.  That may not be true if you're
20   selling real estate or driving a car or, you know, a bus.
21   We train our people coming in so that they can work in
22   that environment safely.  We have several programs in the
23   community.
24        We work in a community where there are refineries,
25   and there is a program in the community that everybody is
0121
 1   used to called sea stock that applies -- might as well
 2   apply in the shipyard too.  People are very aware of the
 3   heavy work environment.  It's not like working in a
 4   hospital.
 5        That's why I say it's hard to compare what you see
 6   out in the rest of the community with what might be in
 7   the shipyard.
 8             MR. PERRY:  I understand.  Okay, thank you very
 9   much.
10             MS. SHORTALL:  Ms. Wangdahl has questions now.
11             MS. WANGDAHL:  I just have a few.
12        Can you talk about your local EMS.  Can you tell me
13   a little bit about that.
14             MR. HODNE:  As a matter of fact, I did one just
15   this last Friday with the confined space rescue team.
16   Probably quarterly at least we'll get together with them
17   and one of the vessels in the yard and put somebody down
18   in the thruster room.  We've done it on our brand new dry
19   dock, and we explained to you earlier about dry dock.
20        Down at the very bottom in the crossover, we put one
21   of our people down there, and we have to extract them out
22   and go through the whole deal.  It's quarterly.
23        I also blow the alarm, which you can hear downtown
24   in Ketchikan and in the yard, and everybody comes and
25   they muster.  We're getting ready, this coming November
0122
 1   we're going to do a larger, expanded drill with the
 2   Alaska Green Highway system with one of their boats, the
 3   local fire department, our people and the U.S. Coast
 4   Guard, and we'll have a table propped in front of us and
 5   we'll build a fire and there are four or five of us, and
 6   we do it often enough that it's rather boring, but it's
 7   situations that you might have happen on a larger vessel,
 8   so there's probably at least six a year.
 9             MS. WANGDAHL:  How long have you been doing
10   this?
11             MR. HODNE:  That was part of John's original
12   compliance-based rescue team in '94.
13             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  It was later than that.
14             MR. HODNE:  '97?
15             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Something like that.
16             MS. WANGDAHL:  Do you only drill confined space
17   rescue?
18             MR. HODNE:  No, no, no.  We'll do fire or we'll
19   do -- our quarterly ones, while we won't have a drill per
20   se other than me setting off the alarm just to see if
21   this guys remember how to and where to muster and do I
22   have any dead spots, because work is dynamic and it moves
23   around the yard, and I want to know is this alarm, are
24   you hearing it the way that it needs to be heard.
25   Sometimes we have a dead spot in the yard.
0123
 1             MS. WANGDAHL:  Do you feel with your facility
 2   relying on off-site EMS is adequate?
 3             MR. HODNE:  Oh, absolutely.  They're three
 4   blocks down the street.
 5             MS. WANGDAHL:  John, so you were the one that
 6   initially set up having the drills with the local EMS?
 7             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Yes.  I was the one that
 8   started the confined space rescue team in our yard and
 9   subsequent training efforts with the local paramedics.
10             MS. WANGDAHL:  How often do you do this?
11             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Probably twice a year now.
12   We've increased our frequency on that.
13             MS. WANGDAHL:  Did you initiate it or did the
14   fire department initiate it?
15             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Initially I did.
16             MS. WANGDAHL:  And they had no problems doing
17   it; you have no problems scheduling?
18             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  No, we have a good rapport
19   with the fire department.  Like I say, it's a small town
20   and they are our neighbors and we work together on issues
21   like this, and they appreciate it.
22             MS. WANGDAHL:  Rick, do you do anything
23   similar?
24             MR. BROWN:  I'm not directly involved, but I
25   don't think we've had any confined space drills like that
0124
 1   with the local fire department, but I know our facilities
 2   safety managers have the fire department come in, they
 3   are familiar, they walk the facility, make sure they know
 4   the layout of our facility and our vessels.
 5        But I don't believe we've done any formal programs,
 6   drills, I should say.
 7             MS. WANGDAHL:  And, Rick, I just had one more
 8   question for you.  You stated previously, I think it was
 9   in your original testimony or it may have been in an
10   answer to one of Ms. Watson's questions, but you stated
11   you put up temporary walkways for the crew on fishing
12   vessels?
13             MR. BROWN:  We establish temporary walkways
14   from the guard shack in that facility, and all I mean is
15   it's cones and caution tape, for example, so they can get
16   directly to the particular vessel that we're crewing.
17             MS. WANGDAHL:  Why don't you do this on a
18   permanent basis for your own employees?
19             MR. BROWN:  I don't think we really -- I need
20   to think through that answer real quickly.  As our teams
21   go out to the different vessels, our maintenance teams, I
22   don't see the need.  My quick answer is I just don't see
23   the need.
24        We just don't have, as far as I can think, issues
25   with traffic.  We don't have that much traffic.  It's
0125
 1   when they're crewing the vessels at the same time we're
 2   loading raw materials for the season, so there is a lot
 3   more activity right at the time maintaining those vessels
 4   the last couple of days before a vessel is ready to
 5   depart for a fishing season.  We have a lot more
 6   activity.
 7             MS. WANGDAHL:  You don't have a lot of areas
 8   where you're going to have pedestrians as well as your
 9   own vehicles on a regular basis; is that what you're
10   saying?
11             MR. BROWN:  That's fair, yes.
12             MS. WANGDAHL:  Thank you very much.
13             MS. SHORTALL:  Ms. Brinkerhoff has some
14   questions.
15             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Mr. Brown, in your testimony
16   you talked about efforts to isolate hazardous energy on
17   vessels, and I'm just wondering if you modify that at all
18   on your smaller vessels where your crews are pretty small
19   compared to your larger vessels.
20             MR. BROWN:  Could you explain modify.
21             MS. BRINKERHEOFF:  Well, do you use the same
22   hazardous energy control program for your large vessels
23   as your small vessels?
24             MR. BROWN:  I'd say that the vast majority of
25   our smaller vessels we try to put lockout/tagout kits on
0126
 1   them and try to put a program in place that is similar.
 2        As far as experts go, it is the ship's crew who is
 3   usually I would probably say the default, and we have a
 4   flight engineering staff that has various, like we'll
 5   have full engineering for most of ours in one segment,
 6   our catcher vessels, and that particular person could
 7   certainly be qualified as a system expert.
 8        Do I understand your question?
 9             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Yes, I think so, and it
10   sounds like you're saying there is somebody on each of
11   your vessels, even the smaller ones.  I think that's what
12   you're saying.
13             MR. BROWN:  We've certainly extended the
14   program, our lockout/tagout program, as we try to build
15   it on our larger vessels down to the smaller.  It's not
16   complete by any stretch, but I say getting system
17   experts, my first answer would be our default is
18   definitely the ship's crew.
19             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  On the smaller --
20             MR. BROWN:  Yes, on the smaller.  They know the
21   vessel the best.
22             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Mr. Hodne, which of your
23   shipyard employees wear personal protective equipment?
24             MR. HODNE:  Everyone.
25             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Everybody?
0127
 1             MR. HODNE:  Yes.  We have 100 percent
 2   steel-toed boots and safety glasses and hard hats, and
 3   then the PPE's goes up from there, ear plugs, tie backs,
 4   gloves.  Yeah, everybody.
 5             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  But like the tie backs and
 6   the eyeglasses, who wears those?
 7             MR. HODNE:  Everybody wears safety glasses, and
 8   the tie backs, it depends on -- there again, I'll go back
 9   to the JHA.  The painters are going to be painting,
10   they're going to be wearing it; if the services guys,
11   labor guys, are doing a bunch of grinding or things with
12   dust, they'll have theirs.  No grinding is done without
13   full eye protection, actual eyeglasses, and they may be
14   wearing a tie back.  The hydraulic guys are messing with
15   fluids and they are in a greasy situation, they'll put
16   the tie backs on.  And that's the way they work.
17             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  And that's all spelled out in
18   your job --
19             MR. HODNE:  Job hazardous analysis.
20             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  That's part of the abatement
21   section of the job?
22             MR. HODNE:  Yes.
23             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  And my other question to you
24   was you mentioned that Washington state has the most
25   clearly written rules.  Are you talking about WISHA?
0128
 1             MR. HODNE:  Yes.  I think they changes their
 2   name to DOS or something.
 3             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Right, I think it's DOS.
 4        And Mr. Killingsworth, I just wondered if your
 5   company has any of those really expensive flashlights?
 6             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Not yet.
 7             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  That's all I have.
 8             MS. SHORTALL:  I have a few questions for you.
 9   Mr. Killingsworth, I'll refer to you first.
10        Mr. Killingsworth, in your facility, do you have any
11   spaces containing bulk quantities of combustible or
12   flammable liquids or gases or spaces containing
13   quantities of liquid gasses or solids that are toxic,
14   corrosive or irritating?
15             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  No.
16             MS. SHORTALL:  I also wanted to know how far
17   the closest EMT facility is from your facility
18   mileage-wise.
19             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Nine blocks.
20             MS. SHORTALL:  Nine blocks?
21             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Less than a mile.  I think
22   it's five-eighths of a mile the last time we measured.
23   And we are within their three-minute response radius.
24             MS. SHORTALL:  Does the three-minute response
25   radius mean the time for them to get from their facility
0129
 1   to your shipyard?
 2             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Once they get the call, it
 3   takes them less than three minutes to get to our
 4   facility.
 5             MS. SHORTALL:  So how long does it take them to
 6   get from their facility to an injured person who is in
 7   the bottom deck of the largest vessel you may have at
 8   your facility?
 9             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Again, it depends.  If the
10   injury is in a new building area, access is immediate.
11   If it's on one of the vessels, it will be, depending on
12   when the rescue team gets the victim out of the vessel,
13   however long that might be.
14        When they come on-site, though, they go directly to
15   the victim and offer the victim care.
16             MS. SHORTALL:  Right.
17             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  We are not the experts in
18   victim care.  We rely on the paramedics to do that.
19             MS. SHORTALL:  I'm just trying to understand
20   how long does it take them from their point of their EMT
21   facility to get to that employee if that employee were
22   injured on the bottom deck of your largest vessel.
23             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Five, six minutes,
24   something like that.
25             MS. SHORTALL:  Five, six minutes?
0130
 1             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  It depends on how deep they
 2   are in the vessel.  I'm thinking of the largest vessel.
 3             MS. SHORTALL:  Mr. Hodne, how close is the
 4   furthest EMT facility from your shipyard?
 5             MR. HODNE:  Two blocks.
 6             MS. SHORTALL:  Two blocks.  When you said it's
 7   two minutes, did you also mean from the point of them
 8   getting from their facility to your facility?
 9             MR. HODNE:  To the ship side.  We're very
10   small, and when the alarm goes out, the way is cleared,
11   and we also have somebody at the gate to give directions
12   to where they need to go.  It's two minutes door to door.
13             MS. SHORTALL:  Door to door.
14             MR. HODNE:  Yes.
15             MS. SHORTALL:  It's been very fun, I've been
16   looking at the websites for everybody, and I happened to
17   look at your Ketchikan Shipyard Development Plan.  Is it
18   fully developed now?
19             MR. HODNE:  No, we're in the middle of it.
20             MS. SHORTALL:  Pardon?
21             MR. HODNE:  We'll in the middle of it.
22             MS. SHORTALL:  It looks like it's going to be
23   quite a large -- to me it looks pretty large and a lot of
24   different aisles and aspects to it.
25             MR. HODNE:  It's going to be probably the
0131
 1   newest shipyard in the country.  Our footprint is -- does
 2   it say our footprint?  I think it's going to be two and a
 3   half acres.  It's really quite small.  But the way that
 4   we've designed it, we'll be able to utilize that space
 5   that isn't utilized today.
 6             MS. SHORTALL:  So how long will it take for
 7   that EMT personnel to get from your gate -- same
 8   question -- to the bottom deck to reach an employee in
 9   the largest ship that you work on or build or repair at
10   your facility?
11             MR. HODNE:  Well, from the main gate to the dry
12   dock, that large ship would be on the pier side, is maybe
13   200 or 250 yards, so that distance is covered quickly.  A
14   lot of the gangway we'll have it cleared, or six minutes
15   or less.
16             MS. SHORTALL:  Where are the AED's located?
17             MR. HODNE:  We don't have AED's.
18             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  We rely on the fire
19   department for that.
20             MS. SHORTALL:  Mr. Hodne, I want you to tell me
21   why your company decided it was so important to do the
22   job hazard analysis?
23             MR. HODNE:  Funny you should ask.  Our shipyard
24   is only 15 years old.  We had a pulp mill, before I got
25   there, it was a pulp mill, which was closed down some 10
0132
 1   or 12 years ago.  It put 600 people out.
 2        And the owner of our company had a construction firm
 3   as well, and he's a benevolent man, and he hated laying
 4   off his people in the off season.  This state facility,
 5   which we lease, was available.  He didn't know
 6   shipbuilding, ship repair from anything, but he knew that
 7   he was given an opportunity that was presented to him, so
 8   he jumped into the shipbuilding, ship repair business 15
 9   years ago.
10        What was the question?
11             MS. SHORTALL:  I want to know, I think it's
12   great that you do the job hazard analysis.  You said it's
13   been triggered by management commitment down, so I wanted
14   to know --
15             MR. HODNE:  For me, to work through with
16   loggers and fishermen displaced into a new industry, the
17   easiest way to get them is -- six feet or 10 feet tall is
18   not the average of our shipyard, so it shifted over.  The
19   cultures changed and you're under new rules, and they're
20   stubborn, loggers are stubborn.
21        So going through the job hazardous analysis got them
22   to have to stop and recognize the myth, and do the steps
23   to recognize, which then gets them into a recognition of
24   the hazard.
25        And actually in 2009, we're trying to push it
0133
 1   forward.  We're going to have a weekly $100 incentive.  I
 2   don't believe in incentives at all, but I have to tell
 3   you, they're going to know and they are going to give you
 4   the rule; what is the standard; what is wrong with this
 5   picture, and they're going to give you 1915 dot dah, dah,
 6   dah, dah, dah.  And we're going to push the knowledge.
 7   Besides, there's nothing to do up there except work,
 8   drink and sleep.  I would rather that they work, learn
 9   and sleep.
10             MS. SHORTALL:  You told us that you had one
11   lost workday injury this year.  What's your total number
12   of injuries this year?
13             MR. HODNE:  Reportable, I think I'm at five or
14   six.  And that's the little nicks and cuts and you put a
15   Band-Aid on it.
16             MS. SHORTALL:  When we were talking before
17   about the time for the EMT to get to your plant and then
18   to get to the gangplank and then to get down to the
19   bottom of the ship, if you added it all up you're talking
20   about six to seven minutes total.  I can't think of a
21   nice way to say it.
22             MR. HODNE:  Just say it.
23             MS. SHORTALL:  Are you aware of the American
24   Heart Association's and Red Cross's statements, as well
25   as other studies, that suggest that in a situation where
0134
 1   a person has stopped breathing or their heart has
 2   stopped, that the golden window of opportunity is one to
 3   five minutes to get CPR started and an AED.
 4        We're now past that point, that golden window of
 5   opportunity, if you had an injury at the bottom of yours.
 6   How is your company either dealing with that or planning
 7   to deal with that?
 8             MR. HODNE:  You have to understand the culture
 9   and the attitude of Alaskans.  It's not like the lower
10   48.  When we say we're going down south, we don't mean
11   Seattle.  It's very much a self-preservation idea.
12        And these guys will do -- you have to recognize, we
13   are CPR trained, we are first aid trained, even though I
14   have a separate opinion about that.  But we're going to
15   render aid as best we can.
16        But then again, those AED's, they fail, they are not
17   100 percent effective.  And I wish I brought my notes
18   with me, because that same 70-year-old superintendent has
19   an opinion on AED's.  And he surfs the net all the time,
20   and they have a 20 percent success rate, some
21   phenomenally low number.
22        People are putting way too much faith and way too
23   much credence in AED's.  It's just the way it is.
24   They're great, they sound great, on theory and paper it's
25   the right thing to do.  But in practice and in outcomes,
0135
 1   there is an edge, but they're not an end all/be all deal.
 2             MS. SHORTALL:  Mr. Brown, you use forklifts at
 3   your facility, right?
 4             MR. BROWN:  Yes, we do.
 5             MS. SHORTALL:  Do all your employees who
 6   operate forklifts wear seat belts?
 7             MR. BROWN:  Absolutely.
 8             MS. SHORTALL:  How did you get that climate or
 9   culture for you to tell your employees that you must wear
10   the seat belts when you're operating the forklift?
11             MR. BROWN:  We made that the rule and we
12   enforce it.
13             MS. SHORTALL:  What do you mean by enforcing
14   it?  What happens to an employee who gets caught without
15   a seat belt on?
16             MR. BROWN:  We have a progressive system in
17   place there that our shipyard competent person at our
18   facility and manager, and any manager at the facility is
19   encouraged to support, that if you see someone not
20   wearing a seat belt, we have a chit system where we write
21   them up and put them in their files.
22        If they're found -- this is one example -- like
23   driving a forklift without a seat belt on or any other
24   number of violations, not wearing a hard hat, safety
25   glasses, et cetera.
0136
 1             MS. SHORTALL:  Do you think you could apply
 2   that process or that system that you have to people using
 3   seat belts in other vehicles in which they might be
 4   riding or operating when they're on your facility?
 5             MR. BROWN:  My comments in my testimony I
 6   mentioned that that might be a difficult thing.  We don't
 7   have that many personal vehicles enter into our facility
 8   other than catching them right at the gate as they go in.
 9        My opinion is that might be a little bit difficult
10   for our facility, for example, to enforce.  There are
11   very few personal vehicles we allow in, so it's a little
12   hard for me to answer that.
13        I don't think that's going to be easy.  It's a lot
14   easier and a lot more visible on every forklift that
15   you're going to see them if they're not wearing their
16   seat belt.
17             MS. SHORTALL:  If you had a pickup truck and
18   people riding in the back of it, would it be pretty
19   visible to see they're probably not in a seat belt back
20   there?
21             MR. BROWN:  Yeah, but we don't do that at our
22   facility, absolutely not.
23             MS. SHORTALL:  Gentlemen, thank you so much for
24   coming here today.  Your testimony has been wonderful,
25   and we look forward to receiving your post-hearing
0137
 1   comments as well.  Thank you again.
 2             JUDGE GEE:  Thank you very much.  We'll have
 3   our lunch break now.  It's 12:45 now.  We'll start up at
 4   1:45.
 5      (Luncheon recess from 12:45 p.m. to 1:45 p.m.)
 6             JUDGE GEE:  If there is anyone in the room who
 7   has not signed in at the desk in front of the room,
 8   please do so so we have a record of who is participating
 9   and attending these hearings.
10        Our first presenter this afternoon is Philip Dovinh.
11   Is that how you pronounce your name?
12             MR. DOVINH:  Yes, Your Honor.
13             JUDGE GEE:  Please state your full name, spell
14   it and your affiliation.
15             MR. DOVINH:  Good afternoon.  My name is Philip
16   Dovinh, spelled P-H-I-L-I-P, last name, D-O-V-I-N-H, and
17   I work for Sound Testing, a company based here in
18   Seattle, Washington.
19             MS. SHORTALL:  Your Honor, I'd like to ask Mr.
20   Dovinh if he has additional copies of his testimony that
21   we could follow along with it.
22             MR. DOVINH:  I do.  I only have one copy.
23             JUDGE GEE:  Did you want to mark that as an
24   exhibit?
25             MS. SHORTALL:  Yes, Your Honor.  I'd like to
0138
 1   mark first of all John Killingsworth's testimony as
 2   Exhibit 0180, Chris Kline's testimony from Icicle
 3   Seafoods as Exhibit 0181, and Mr. Dovinh's testimony as
 4   Exhibit 0182.
 5             JUDGE GEE:  So ordered.  Thank you.
 6        Mr. Dovinh, you may being.
 7             MR. DOVINH:  Thank you.
 8        Thank you for the opportunity to share our concerns
 9   regarding your proposed 1915 Subpart F, General Working
10   Conditions.
11        I'm not a commercial fisherman, I'm not a vessel
12   owner, and I do not own or run a shipyard or ship repair
13   facility.  I am an NFPA certified marine chemist and
14   chemical engineer for over 20 years.  I'd like to share
15   with you a little bit about what I do and why
16   lockout/tagout is such an important part of my life.
17        As a chemical engineer, I specialize in the safe
18   handling, processing, categorization, treatment,
19   reclaiming and recycling hazardous materials, waste oils
20   and other waste means through the marine industry.
21        As a marine chemist, I am an expert in the field of
22   compliance-based entry, aqua and the controlled workers
23   exposure to hazardous and toxic materials in the shipyard
24   industry.  I also specialize in the control of fires and
25   explosions in the marine industry, tank forms,
0139
 1   refineries, shore tanks, underground and aboveground
 2   storage tanks.
 3        In the shipyard industry, confined spaces are not
 4   limited just to tanks, voids or cofferdams with limited
 5   access, but also include hull structures, piping and
 6   other spaces which by their small sizes and confined
 7   nature can readily create or aggravate a hazardous
 8   exposure.
 9        A confined space to me is any space that may be
10   oxygen deficient or contain flammable or toxic materials
11   or hidden physical hazards.
12        I'm often privileged to be the first person to enter
13   these various confined spaces on shore and on the marine
14   vessels, such as fuel tanks, crude oil tanks, fish oil
15   tanks, ballice tanks, voids and even sewage tanks to test
16   for their atmospheric conditions.  Once they require
17   testing, an inspection is completed and safe conditions
18   are ascertained, I issue a marine chemist certificate, a
19   legal document that authorizes workers to enter and work
20   inside the confined spaces.
21        In a unique way, I am one of the foremost experts
22   and the frontline of defense against atmospheric hazards
23   in all types of confined and enclosed spaces on ships,
24   marine vessels and shore tanks.
25        The types of marine vessels that I inspect range
0140
 1   from crude oil tankers, bulk carriers, tank ships and
 2   tank barges, container freighters, Navy ships, aircraft
 3   carriers, submarines, U.S. Coast Guard icebreakers and
 4   buoy tenders, NOAA research vessels, all passenger ship
 5   carriers, tugboats, catamarans and all types of fishing
 6   vessels large and small.
 7        That is how I have come to know many of the vessel
 8   owners, ship repairers, shipyard owners and operators and
 9   their safety supervisors present here in the last two
10   days of this hearing.  In fact, one of the marine
11   chemists working with our company has successfully
12   entered, inspected and certified over 300,000 confined
13   spaces and tanks safely in his 40 yearlong career.  I
14   have another 20 years to catch up to this giant.
15        Besides working as an NFPA certified marine chemist
16   chemical engineer, I also hold classes in confined space
17   training, hot work, Benzene, lead, hexavalent chromium,
18   shipyard competent person training, fire watch training
19   and various supervisory-level safety training classes.
20   Most of these people that were here yesterday and today
21   have gone through my classes.
22        I also represent the marine industry on the Seattle
23   Fire Code Advisory Board for nearly 10 years and helped
24   develop various atmospheric rules.  Currently I'm an
25   active member of the Marine Chemist Association.  I'm
0141
 1   also a board member of the Marine Chemists Association
 2   Executive Committee, and I'm also a member of the Puget
 3   Sound Shipybuilders Association.
 4        Since my friends and associates in the commercial
 5   fishing industry and shipyard industry have done such a
 6   wonderful job at voicing their concerns in front of your
 7   panel regarding housekeeping of Subpart F, I'm here today
 8   mainly to concentrate on 1915.89, control of hazardous
 9   energy, lockout/tagout.
10        I hope to fill in some of the holes left open and
11   also to clarify other issues that might be helpful to
12   your panel.
13        First, I would like to remind everybody here that
14   OSHA 29 CFR Part 1915, the shipyard industry standard,
15   including this proposed Subpart F, are meant to cover all
16   employees of employers fulfilling maritime activities on
17   board vessels, vessel sections and landside operations on
18   the shore, pier, terminal, yard, shipyard, machine shop,
19   river banks, et cetera, as well as on vessels afloat or
20   in dry docks or in waiting docks, regardless of
21   geographical location.
22        The term ship repair means any repair of vessel
23   including but not restricted to alteration, conversions,
24   installation, tank cleaning, painting and maintenance
25   work.  Shipyard employment in our region, here in the
0142
 1   Pacific Northwest, is comprised of the owners and
 2   operators of tank ships, tank barges, tugboats, carriers,
 3   container ships, cruise ships, bulk carriers, commercial
 4   fishing industry, shipyards, independent vessel repairers
 5   and then numerous subcontractors.
 6        I feel that the shipyard employment in our region
 7   has not been adequately represented during the drafting
 8   and initial development process of the Proposed 29C 1915
 9   Subpart F.
10        In the mid 1990's during the development process of
11   29 CFR Part 1915, Subpart P, which I'm pretty sure Mr.
12   Joe Daddura remembers quite well, fire protection in the
13   shipyard industry.  Mr. Joe Daddura made several trips to
14   the Seattle area and consulted with our local shipyards
15   and ship repairers.  The representatives from the
16   shipyard industry in our region consulted with Mr.
17   Daddura and took him to various shipyards, ship repair
18   facilities for his observation and evaluation.
19        Mr. Daddura was also given a copy of the Seattle
20   Fire Department Administrative Rule 49.01, which I helped
21   develop, cutting, welding and other hot work on marine
22   vessels for his review.  Many of the components from our
23   local hot work regulation were considered and
24   incorporated into the final version of Subpart P.
25        Although 29 CFR 1915 Subpart P is not perfect, but
0143
 1   it was practical and realistic for our industry, and our
 2   industry did not have any major difficulty adopting its
 3   requirements.
 4        Today on behalf of our local shipyard industry, I
 5   would like to express our gratitude and thanks to Mr. Joe
 6   Daddura for a wonderful job that he has done for us in
 7   developing Subpart P.
 8        When the proposed version of Subpart F, general
 9   working conditions in shipyard employment came out, many
10   people in our industry read it carefully and found that
11   it contained sections that were uncompleted, undefined
12   terminologies, ambiguous, impractical, unnecessary and
13   too costly, impossible to implement or to comply with,
14   and maybe even in conflict with certain existing federal
15   regulations.
16        Your language used in Subpart F is often unclear,
17   confusing, open-ended and leaves ample room for erroneous
18   or misinterpretations which may result in unnecessary or
19   costly modifications and potential citations.
20        The data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
21   shows that in 2007 commercial fishermen and related
22   fishing workers had the highest rate of fatalities, 100.8
23   per every 100,000 employed workers.  The next highest was
24   logging at 87.1, and the lowest was education and
25   librarian workers at 0.2 per 100,000.
0144
 1        The shipyard, ship repair industry has always been
 2   known to be one of the most dangerous professions.  In
 3   the Pacific Northwest, we have a very special marriage
 4   between these two industries.  After completing fishing
 5   working in treacherous conditions on the high seas, the
 6   same fishermen go to various shores, piers, terminals,
 7   dry docks, shipyards to perform ship repairs.  But this
 8   time they work in a completely different set of
 9   treacherous conditions.
10        There are numerous and many inherent risks and
11   dangers in both of these industries, even with the
12   strictest of all regulations and safety measures taken.
13   The risks and the dangers remain.
14        I believe that the best risk management is a
15   combination of workers awareness, available options,
16   training, site inspections, safety inspections, safety
17   programs, personal protective equipment, engineering
18   controls along with regulatory guidance.  It is important
19   to note that everyone in our industry appreciates OSHA's
20   good intention to help our industry lower the statistics
21   of fatalities and accidents in the shipyard industry.
22        Many of us also believe that safety could also be
23   achieved in a voluntarily basis, a performance-based
24   basis with some additional guidance from OSHA, but not
25   necessarily in terms of a new set of regulations.
0145
 1        I also feel that the economic impacts as analyzed by
 2   OSHA grossly underestimate the cost of implementing the
 3   proposed Subpart F by shipyard employment in our region.
 4   A large part of the shipyard employment in the Pacific
 5   Northwest hinges closely to the success or failure of the
 6   commercial fishing and fish processing industry.
 7        Because the commercial fishing industry in our area
 8   is cyclical, one bad year of commercial fishing may turn
 9   into two or three years of terrible for the rest of the
10   shipyard employment.  I would ask you to carefully
11   consider this regional cyclical and economic issue when
12   you revisit the section of economic impact analysis.
13        The current conclusion made by OSHA that the
14   proposed regulation is economically feasible definitely
15   is not appropriate because it doesn't reflect reality,
16   especially in the Pacific Northwest area.
17        Based on the current data from the U.S. Bureau of
18   Labor Statistics, BLS, approximately 70 percent of all
19   shipyard accidents are related to atmospheric hazards,
20   mostly oxygen deficiency.  The remaining 25 of all
21   shipyard accidents are related to other causes, mostly
22   physical hazards that have to do with slip, trip and
23   fall.
24        Approximately five to six percent of all shipyard
25   accidents are related to sudden release of hazardous
0146
 1   energy.  Not only that, the BLS also indicated that
 2   workers who are non-native English speakers have a
 3   minimum of at least 40 percent higher risk of death and
 4   injuries on the job than their counterparts.
 5        Mr. Alan Davis of American Seafoods mentioned in his
 6   testimony yesterday that there were as many as 80
 7   different languages being spoken on some of his vessels.
 8   I believe that by proposing the regulation 1915.81
 9   housekeeping and 1915.89 control hazardous energy,
10   lockout/tagout, OSHA has hit several nails right on the
11   head pretty hard.  But OSHA hit the wrong nails.
12        In my opinion, to reduce the maximum number of
13   fatalities and injury rates in the shipyard industry
14   today, OSHA should concentrate on ways to help workers
15   improve atmospheric conditions in tanks, confined spaces,
16   enclosed spaces and isolated spaces during the ship
17   repair.
18        In the current 29 CFR 1915 shipyard industry, OSHA
19   referred to the term ventilation, ventilating, ventilate
20   55 times -- 55 times.  This fact indicates that OSHA
21   knows that the risks associated with bad air, and that
22   OSHA recognizes ventilation is the single-most important
23   engineering control measure that a ship repair industry
24   could use during ship repair operations.
25        Second, OSHA should concentrate on ways to help
0147
 1   employees to better deal with the dangers of uneven
 2   surfaces, slippery and wet conditions, gangway access,
 3   extreme temperature, guarding machines and equipment,
 4   open manholes, open fish holes, open cargo holes, loud
 5   noises, high pressures, heights, et cetera, and ways to
 6   minimize burns, cuts, scrapes, bruises by ship's
 7   structure.
 8        Yesterday somebody asked how much of the area on the
 9   ship has to do with working and walking surfaces.  I can
10   tell you during ship repair, every inch of that vessel
11   the ship repairers have to climb around and do the
12   welding, burning, cutting or grinding.
13        Third, OSHA should concentrate on communication
14   program to help workers in the shipyard industry better
15   understand the risks and hazards associated with their
16   work and ways to minimize or reduce them.
17        To summarize, there are three reasons, three main
18   reasons that currently injure, hurt or kill the most
19   workers in the shipyard industry.  No. 1, hazardous
20   atmospheric conditions; No. 2, slips, trips and falls;
21   No. 3, lack of or inadequate communication.
22        The recent OSHA release of guidelines for the
23   shipyards ergonomics for the prevention of
24   musculoskeletal disorders, OSHA publication 3341-03N 2008
25   is an exemplary example of OSHA's effort to help the
0148
 1   shipyard industry to deal with ergonomic issues instead
 2   of implementing another set of regulations.  I have a
 3   copy here if you wish to see it.
 4        This set of OSHA advisory guidelines on ergonomics
 5   is a great example to show that a general integral
 6   reliance between OSHA and the shipyards can produce
 7   exceptional results.  In fact, many pictures and
 8   guidelines and suggestions included in this document came
 9   directly from our local shipyards in this region.
10        I strongly recommend that OSHA produce additional
11   safety guidelines on the subjects of ventilation, slips,
12   trips and falls, signs and communication, housekeeping as
13   well as lockout/tagout for shipyard industry.
14        If OSHA were to continue implementing Subpart F for
15   our industry, in order to be most effective, I ask that
16   our shipyard industry be given a unified set of
17   lockout/tagout standards.  By having a unified standard
18   on lockout/tagout, everyone in our industry from the
19   safety professionals to the chief engineers, from the
20   skippers to the foremen, from the machine operators to
21   the deckhands, from the ship superintendents to the
22   laborers, from the vessel repairers to the tank cleaners,
23   from the electrician to the mechanics, from the
24   boilermakers to the pipefitters, from the port engineers
25   to the marine chemists, from the competent person to the
0149
 1   fire watchers, everyone will be applying and working
 2   under one set of lockout/tagout operations, regulations,
 3   and that would truly enhance safety and minimize the loss
 4   of life, limbs and property.
 5        I would like to give you one example.  Although not
 6   perfect, the Hexavalent Chromium Standard that became
 7   effective in 2006 -- I also have a copy right here,
 8   Publication 3320-10N -- is another excellent example of
 9   OSHA's abilities.
10        OSHA effectively revised one set of standards for
11   each industry, General Industry Standard 1910.1026,
12   Shipyard Standard 1915.1026, Construction Standard,
13   1926.1126.
14        In each of these standards, each industry has its
15   own independent set of regulations and applicable
16   exceptions.  They were well written.  They were written
17   clearly and credibility is exceptional, and all of the
18   definitions were listed at the beginning immediately
19   right next to the scope of the standard.
20        I feel that OSHA proposed 1915.89, control hazardous
21   energy lockout/tagout is very confusing, incomplete.  The
22   topics of hazardous energy and lockout/tagout needed to
23   be reevaluated, reassessed, rewritten, streamlined,
24   simplified and unified.
25        Lockout/tagout operations and requirements on ships
0150
 1   in the marine industry are completely and inherently
 2   differently from those of general industry.  The
 3   procedures that work well in general industry may be
 4   extremely dangerous or costly when trying to implement
 5   blindly in the shipyard industry.
 6        For example, there are cargo lines, fuel lines, vent
 7   lines, freon lines, ammonia lines, steam lines, hydraulic
 8   lines, thermal oil lines, heating coils, manifolds, tanks
 9   and cascading piping systems that are continuous with
10   little or no valve in line.
11        Many electrical wiring systems are hidden behind
12   bulkheads, overheads, under decks, control panels,
13   conduits, processing equipment, cabinets, control
14   equipment and other structures or obstacles.
15        Piping system, refrigeration, fuel oil system,
16   hydraulic systems often have piping, flanges or expansion
17   joints built inside other fuel tanks.  These are also the
18   same systems that need constant repair and hot work.  In
19   order to blank a valve, one would have to empty the fuel
20   tank, ventilate it, clean it, gas free it before blanking
21   can take place.  If adjacent spaces are involved, at
22   least two or three or four more tanks would have to be
23   cleaned, would have to be emptied and gas free.
24        When shipyard industry refers to lockout and tagout,
25   we normally mean a positive measure of some kind is to be
0151
 1   used, not only just to lockout or tagout, but also
 2   closing valves, removing handles, splash zoning,
 3   blanking, plugging, ballooning, stuffing with a rag,
 4   wedging, capping, drill, tap, plug, bandaging, securing
 5   manholes, closing doors and hatches, shutting portholes
 6   and ventilation ducts, tying ropes, duct-taping, guarding
 7   machinery, posting signs in confined space entry when hot
 8   work remains, re-energize, disconnect, pull the plug,
 9   tank cleaning, isolation, building containment,
10   jerryrigging, hanging fire blankets, water blanketing, et
11   cetera.
12             JUDGE GEE:  Mr. Dovinh, you only asked for 10
13   minutes.  Do you have much more?
14             MR. DOVINH:  I have three more pages, Your
15   Honor.  May I?
16             MS. SHORTALL:  Is there some way you can sort
17   of sum up the last four pages?  We'll put it verbatim
18   into the record.
19             MR. DOVINH:  These pages are very important.
20   This is the core of what we think the lockout/tagout is
21   lacking.
22             MS. SHORTALL:  It's up to the judge.
23             JUDGE GEE:  I'll let you do it, but if you
24   could summarize it in any way at all, that would be
25   beneficial.  We do have other witnesses to testify.
0152
 1             MR. DOVINH:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 2        OSHA purports for Subpart F, control hazardous
 3   energy, only covers mostly electrical hazardous energy.
 4   This is bias and lopsided because it does not cover the
 5   rest of the other energy sources that might hurt workers
 6   just the same or worse.
 7        I'm going to try to summarize.  For example, the
 8   term hazardous energy could not be found anywhere in 29
 9   CFR 1915.  It is not defined.  There is a definition for
10   hazardous or toxic substances.  There is a definition for
11   energy source.  But there is no definition for hazardous
12   energy.
13        There is a term other energy which is also not
14   defined.  Does it include kinetic, potential,
15   gravitational or other sources of energy.  It is
16   important to realize that any one of these energy sources
17   may be harmful -- may have harmful effects on the workers
18   being exposed, and certainly that message is the only
19   determining factor between life and death for the
20   workers.
21        In the shipyard employment, all of the strings,
22   coils, tightropes and chains, suspending chains and
23   cables, harnesses, straps, and stacked objects that have
24   mass, structures and bulkheads, combustible fuels in
25   cargos, combustible insulation, all of those have stored
0153
 1   energy which this Subpart F has not covered.
 2        Here's my conclusion.  I have a feeling that you've
 3   been looking for an answer as to what our industry has
 4   been doing in the past many years.  If our industry
 5   didn't have some kind of procedure to do lockout/tagout,
 6   the number of deaths and fatalities would have been
 7   tenfold.  And let me give you what I think has been
 8   helping our industry.
 9        The answer to these questions may include some of
10   the following:  No. 1, the good and the bad experiences
11   that we gained in the last 150 years of building and
12   repairing modern ships has been applied to engineers,
13   port engineers, safety persons, competent persons,
14   chemists and safety supervisors today.
15        No. 2, the good and the bad experiences gained in
16   the mining industry for the last 200 years.  The mining
17   industry shares common problems with the shipyards, lack
18   of oxygen, confined spaces, toxic gasses, explosive
19   gasses, lockouts and tagouts.
20        No. 3, the information from private companies and
21   the ongoing training, both volunteer, are required by
22   OSHA, U.S. Coast Guard, NFPA ANSI regarding lockout and
23   tagout and hazardous flammable and toxic as well as
24   control of hazardous energy have been trickled down into
25   our industry, and they are being put to good use by the
0154
 1   shipyard industry.
 2        No. 4, bad and good experiences means actual
 3   accidents and deaths.  The findings and lessons learned
 4   are updated, analyzed and shared among our industry
 5   daily.
 6        No. 5, workers performing unsafe operations are
 7   either killed or crippled or no longer able to work and
 8   no longer able to carry out additional dangerous and
 9   risky behavior.
10        No. 6, economics and the demand for competent
11   employees drives safety.  Sometimes poor economics also
12   drives safety to the other direction.
13        Lastly, No. 7, existing safety standards,
14   regulations and programs already implemented in place as
15   required by OSHA 29 CFR Part 1915, U.S. Coast Guard
16   regulations and FDA 306, such as the competent person
17   program and the marine chemist program.
18        After more than 20 years of working in the shipyard
19   industry and over 70,000 confined spaces later, I
20   strongly believe that during the actual ship repair
21   period, the shipyard competent person and their confined
22   space and hot work program along with the marine chemist
23   inspection and certification, that is what has kept our
24   industry from having a very high accident rate regarding
25   the issues of lockout and tagout.
0155
 1        Thank you for the opportunity to speak.  Thank you
 2   for your generosity, Your Honor.
 3             JUDGE GEE:  Thank you, Mr. Dovinh.  Your entire
 4   statement is part of the record, part of the written
 5   record.
 6             MR. DOVINH:  Thank you, I appreciate that.
 7             JUDGE GEE:  Is there anyone in the audience who
 8   has questions for Mr. Dovinh?
 9        OSHA panel.
10             MS. SHORTALL:  Yes.  We'll start with Mr.
11   Daddura.
12             MR. DADDURA:  Good afternoon, Philip.
13             MR. DOVINH:  Good afternoon.
14             MR. DADDURA:  Briefly for the record, how do
15   you know so much about the industry in the Pacific
16   Northwest?  What is your job function and what is your
17   direction when shipyards call you up; what exactly do you
18   do?
19             MR. DOVINH:  I've lived here for 32 years, and
20   I've been a chemical engineer for over 21 years and a
21   marine chemist for almost 20 years.
22        What I do is before, according to the current Coast
23   Guard and OSHA regulation 1915, before any repair is
24   being done, performed on fuel oil lines, fuel oil tanks,
25   or any cargo or any tank that has hazardous or toxic
0156
 1   substances, they are required to have a marine chemist
 2   perform the initial inspection to make sure it's safe.
 3   And they require that I have to physically enter these
 4   confined spaces.  In a way, I'm the guinea pig.
 5        I would do the initial entry, do the testing, and
 6   based on the permissible exposure unit of the American
 7   Conference of Industrial Hygienists, PLV, we will measure
 8   and do the instrument test and then determine whether the
 9   space is safe or not.  And then I would come out alive
10   and testify on a certificate saying that this space is
11   safe for hot work, meaning people can go inside and do
12   welding, cutting and burning.
13        And then I also certify safety workers, meaning
14   people can go inside safely without become exposed to any
15   of these toxic gasses.
16             MR. DADDURA:  Everyone has standards to follow.
17   What is the standards that the NCA certified marine
18   chemists follow?
19             MR. DOVINH:  In the 29 CFR 1915, the standard
20   is incorporated by reference.  So it calls for the use of
21   NFPA 306.  NFPA 306 is the detailed instruction, it's the
22   Bible that regulate the marine chemists.  We have to
23   abide by that.
24        We get certified by the NFPA, recertified by them
25   every five years, and we then we go to seminars and
0157
 1   training every year.  The idea is to make sure we're not
 2   going to make stupid mistakes to blow up people or kill
 3   people in these hazardous situations.
 4             MR. DADDURA:  You have reporting requirements
 5   also within the NFPA, correct?
 6             MR. DOVINH:  Yes, I do.  Every certificate that
 7   I have issued in the last 19 years, they have a copy of
 8   that.  They can always go back and see it.
 9             MR. DADDURA:  When, God forbid, you make a
10   mistake or something goes astray, what happens; what do
11   you have to do or what could happen?
12             MR. DOVINH:  If there is a incident on a vessel
13   that has a written certificate, whether it is my mistake
14   or not, that doesn't matter, I have to immediately report
15   to the National Fire Protection Association within a
16   24-hour period, and then I have to send them copies of
17   what I wrote and write them a report.  And then based on
18   that, they will take further action.
19             MR. DADDURA:  What further action might be
20   taken?
21             MR. DOVINH:  Well, I hope 20 more years, Joe,
22   there will be none of it.  I have done it for almost two
23   decades and I have plenty more to go, and I'm not going
24   to make any mistake.
25        But in case something like this happened, we carry a
0158
 1   large sum of insurance, liability insurance and all that.
 2   And I probably would no longer be a marine chemist.
 3        What I do would be similar to a captain that runs,
 4   that pilots a crude oil tanker.  If he screws up once,
 5   he's done.  I don't plan to do that.
 6             MR. DADDURA:  What is your -- I understand
 7   you're a marine chemist qualification board as an
 8   oversight for each marine chemist.
 9             MR. DOVINH:  When I was being certified, I
10   remember you were on that board.  You were on the marine
11   chemist certification board.
12             MR. DADDURA:  Many years ago.
13             MR. DOVINH:  That's right.  And in the whole
14   United States there are 100 certified marine chemists.
15   There are not too many people that would go to school,
16   college, get trained and then crawl in a ship tank and
17   take all that liability.  That's the reason why there are
18   so few marine chemists is because of the liability.
19        We are insured by Lloyds of London.  We used to
20   until two years go and we changed to another company.  We
21   went to the maximum liability insurance.  So the NFPA and
22   the marine chemist qualification board, they make sure we
23   don't screw up.
24             MR. DADDURA:  So you have oversight by an
25   independent third party, an independent board, something
0159
 1   like a doctor has?
 2             MR. DOVINH:  Many people think it's even more
 3   critical, because on that board there are representatives
 4   from the petroleum industry, from OSHA, from the U.S.
 5   Coast Guard, from the Navy, from the NFPA, from the
 6   marine chemists, from people in the shipyard, and then
 7   from the civilians and then from the general industry.
 8        There are 12 members on that board.  And they have,
 9   once we finish all of our training, we have to pass a
10   written test, and the final examination would be an oral
11   examination, and all 12 members have to unanimously
12   certify us.
13             MR. DADDURA:  Getting back to your work with
14   the shipyards, when they call you, you're called the
15   utmost industry expert.
16             MR. DOVINH:  That is what I'd like them to
17   believe.
18             MR. DADDURA:  That is correct, though, right,
19   the buck stops with you.  No one else is going to be
20   overriding.
21             MR. DOVINH:  We think we know more than anyone
22   about confined space entry.
23             MR. DADDURA:  You've been in all the shipyards
24   up here?
25             MR. DOVINH:  Yes, I have.
0160
 1             MR. DADDURA:  Have you noticed certain things
 2   that aren't identical in terms of lockout/tagout?
 3             MR. DOVINH:  Very tremendously, sir.
 4             MR. DADDURA:  So there's different ways of
 5   doing different things in your dealings?
 6             MR. DOVINH:  That's correct.
 7             MR. DADDURA:  Do you think it's a need for one
 8   standard for everyone to follow to make it uniform all
 9   across the country or just up here?
10             MR. DOVINH:  It doesn't have to be necessarily
11   a standard or requirement.  It could be an industry
12   consensus; it could be performance based; it could be
13   volunteer based.
14        Up to this point, the marine ship repair industry
15   does not have its own independence.  There are some
16   sections, actually about three sections that I have in my
17   report, currently in the OSHA regulation.  That's what we
18   follow plus the requirements of NFPA 306.
19        So I mention that during the ship repair, there are
20   two most important person; that's the marine chemist and
21   the competent person.  These are the two persons that
22   enter these tanks initially, and then repeatedly day in
23   and day out as often as necessary per your regulation to
24   make sure that the pipeline is not leaking, to make sure
25   that ammonia is not leaking, to make sure the oxygen is
0161
 1   sufficient.
 2        And all of that has to do with lockout/tagout.
 3   That's the reason why I mention the lockout/tagout is
 4   very close and dear to my heart.
 5             MR. DADDURA:  29 CFR 1915.15, main conditions.
 6   Are you familiar with that section?
 7             MR. DOVINH:  I don't have the book here, but,
 8   yes, I am.
 9             MR. DADDURA:  There is a requirement either to
10   lock out to make sure no other materials come into the
11   space.
12             MR. DOVINH:  Yes.  It specifically states --
13   may I get my book, it's right here?
14             MR. DADDURA:  Sure.
15             MR. DOVINH:  I remember that it specifically
16   states that you have to use a positive means to lockout
17   or to blank.
18        Positive means in our industry it could be a wooden
19   plug, it could be a pencil wedged into a hole, it could
20   be a wet blanket stuffed up into a pipe, any positive
21   means to prevent or to slow down or to prevent the spread
22   of fire or the spread of hazardous material into the
23   working area.
24        It does not have to be a solid blank or lock or
25   chain or a cap.  And NFPA 306 also requires a positive
0162
 1   means has to be taken.
 2        And that's what's been happening throughout our
 3   industry.  It varies a lot, but they're all taking some
 4   positive means.
 5             MR. DADDURA:  You've been to a lot of
 6   shipyards; you're the first one into the tanks.  What
 7   lighting is available to you when you go into a tank?
 8             MR. DOVINH:  What kind of lighting?
 9             MR. DADDURA:  Yes.
10             MR. DOVINH:  I carry explosion-proof Pelican
11   flashlights.  The U.S. Coast Guard, one thing we learned
12   from them is to always carry two, one is a backup.
13             MR. DADDURA:  So the shipyards don't provide
14   you lighting into a space?
15             MR. DOVINH:  They do not.
16             MR. DADDURA:  Is there a reason why they don't?
17             MR. DOVINH:  Many times the atmospheric
18   conditions inside that tank may be flammable.  And if
19   it's flammable, they're not going to use any type of drop
20   lights or electrical tools in that space until it has
21   been inspected and certified by me that it's not
22   flammable.
23        I would be the one that would authorize the use of
24   conventional electrical lighting or non-explosion proof
25   or non-intrusive tools.
0163
 1             MR. DADDURA:  Housekeeping, throwing out lines
 2   and things like that.  When you get on board a ship, do
 3   you see housekeeping problems or issues?
 4             MR. DOVINH:  A tremendous amount of
 5   housekeeping problems.  The ship repair industry, we like
 6   to have you believe that everybody that works on that
 7   ship have extra pairs of eyes on our toes or on our
 8   boots.  In a way, it's true.
 9        If they work around these things, they have ways to
10   walk the vessel without slip, trip and fall because
11   they're used to it.  That's what they do.  Somebody who
12   is not familiar with that environment, I guarantee you
13   within minutes they will be tripping or slipping over
14   cables and plates and decks and things like that, because
15   the ship repair industry is always temporary, always
16   rushed, always in a hurry, and it's always messy.  It's
17   not clean like Boeing or Weyerhaeuser.
18             MR. DADDURA:  Have you ever had the opportunity
19   to board a ship at sea?
20             MR. DOVINH:  I have.
21             MR. DADDURA:  What kind of conditions does that
22   involve?
23             MR. DOVINH:  It depends on the kind of ships.
24   If it's a Chinese log ship or a Greek tanker, where they
25   like to give me alcohol and tobacco, or one of these
0164
 1   Conoco Phillips crude oil tankers.  It depends.
 2        Some of them follow housekeeping lockout/tagout to
 3   the letter.  Some of them don't.
 4        I'll give you one example.  Just a few years ago I
 5   was working on these tankers in Port Angeles.  This is
 6   crude oil tankers, the equivalent of the Exxon Valdez
 7   that ran aground.  In the control room they have panels
 8   that control valves.  These tanks, 18 tanks, and between
 9   each tank they have a slouch valve, slouch gate valve.
10   By flipping a button on the control panel, they can open
11   that gate valve.  And that's what they did for years.
12   They flipped the button, the gates open, and then they
13   took about a dozen of these caps that you use on the
14   Nyquil, the cough medication, they used that to cap the
15   switch.  And that was their lockout/tagout for at least
16   12 years.
17             MR. DADDURA:  So you couldn't push down on
18   them.
19             MR. DOVINH:  That's right.
20        So sometimes a very simple lockout/tagout procedure,
21   if it isn't visual, if it's in isolation, so they know
22   which valve is secure and which is not.
23        After we did this we found out that it was not
24   really safe because sometimes I would crawl all the way
25   to the bow.  On my way back halfway, some of the slouch
0165
 1   valve, the gate valve came down halfway.  The hydraulic
 2   system leaked.  So we required them to bring in sections
 3   of 4 by 4 and block the valve up for us before we cross
 4   through.  And that's what they do now.
 5             MR. DADDURA:  Let's move on to I guess
 6   sanitation.  Part of your function as a marine chemist is
 7   you inspect CHT tanks, correct?
 8             MR. DOVINH:  I do.  The shipyard competent
 9   person often is qualified, according to your regulation,
10   they can inspect CHT tanks, sewage tanks, CHT stands for
11   chemical holding tanks.  But they don't.  Ninety-nine
12   percent of the time they say, let's call the chemist.  So
13   we get the luxury to crawl all of those too.
14        The sewage tank has biological hazards, germs,
15   millions of e-coli, millions of other coliform materials.
16   But what we do is the potential of sewage, generally
17   methane gas, that's an explosive gas.
18        Also sewage tank has a potential of generating
19   hydrogen sulfide gas.  That is a toxic gas and it's also
20   an explosive gas.  So when we test a sewage tank, those
21   are the gasses we look for.
22             MR. DADDURA:  Do you require the ship to lock
23   out all the toilets before you go into the tank?
24             MR. DOVINH:  Definitely.
25             MR. DADDURA:  How is that done?
0166
 1             MR. DOVINH:  We have them pull the blanks, the
 2   flanges and put in pancake.  Sometimes if that's
 3   possible, we --
 4             MR. DADDURA:  Pancake is what, just for the
 5   record.
 6             MR. DOVINH:  Pancake is a flat, metal plate
 7   that they would insert between the open flanges to
 8   isolate potential liquid and solid flowing inside the
 9   tank.
10        There are times that that is not possible because
11   there is no flanges.  Then we do not allow workers to go
12   inside a sewage tank.  We require them to wear either
13   full-face or half-face respirators, it depends on what we
14   find initially by testing from the manual opening.  We
15   have them clean and vacuum the product from the manhole
16   opening.
17        And then from that, we can do additional inspection
18   and look at the suction and the fuel lines.  If they're
19   not leaking and if the tank is clean sufficiently, we
20   have workers wear proper PPE to go in.  The first thing
21   they would do is to put a plug inside each one of these
22   lines, and OSHA does allow you to do that.
23             MR. DADDURA:  Let's move on to tank cleaning.
24   Say you have a fistful of tanks you clean.  The access to
25   the tank from the workers climbing in and out, what kind
0167
 1   of conditions are they in?
 2             MR. DOVINH:  Mr. Daddura is talking about heavy
 3   bunker fuel, No. 6 fuel.  This is yucky, dirty fuel, and
 4   they have a lot of BTU value, combustion value.  Normally
 5   many of these tanks have only one manhole opening, so we
 6   would require them to do ventilation first.
 7             MR. DADDURA:  I just want to know the condition
 8   by the workers climbing in and out of the tank.  Do you
 9   get any product on the deck walking surface?
10             MR. DOVINH:  Yes, all the time, sometimes up to
11   their knees.
12             MR. DADDURA:  Pulling hoses out and things of
13   that nature?
14             MR. DOVINH:  If there is a lot of product left,
15   we have them try to evacuate the remaining product
16   remotely from the deck of the vessel.  And once it's down
17   to an inch or two, after proper ventilation and
18   respirators and PPE, we allow them to go in under a
19   certification called Enter With Restrictions.
20             MR. DADDURA:  I'm just basically getting into
21   the conditions of the deck from the workers climbing in
22   and out of the tank, moving the hoses around, we have
23   product on the tank top.
24             MR. DOVINH:  Yes, we do.
25             MR. DADDURA:  Is it slippery?
0168
 1             MR. DOVINH:  Yes.
 2             MR. DADDURA:  Is it cleaned up immediately?
 3             MR. DOVINH:  No.
 4             MR. DADDURA:  When is it usually cleaned?
 5             MR. DOVINH:  They use diesel to clean.
 6             MR. DADDURA:  When is it usually cleaned up,
 7   after the job has been completed, the tank has been
 8   cleaned, you send down the hose to clean up the areas
 9   where they worked.
10             MR. DOVINH:  What they try to do is first
11   remove the remaining liquid, and then they try to go down
12   in and muck the tank, meaning they scrape the remaining
13   solid or waxy material first.
14        And then they would go in and use container that has
15   either diesel or kerosene and then they spray the
16   bulkhead and spray the bottom and allow at least three or
17   four hours for the kerosene to suck in the black oil.
18        And then they come back in and they pressure wash it
19   with a high pressure water.  Sometimes they heat up the
20   water to about 120, 140 degrees to assist with the
21   removal.
22        And then all of the product is evacuated through a
23   vacuum hose into a vacuum truck.
24             MR. DADDURA:  And people are down there walking
25   around, right?
0169
 1             MR. DOVINH:  Constantly, they have to.
 2             MR. DADDURA:  And the conditions are very
 3   slippery and wet.
 4             MR. DOVINH:  Sometimes, not always, sometimes.
 5   The tank cleaners, these are special species.  They know
 6   how to handle all of these, and there are boots that
 7   allow them to walk on the petroleum product without being
 8   slippery.  Technology is there, and that's what they use.
 9   There are petroleum product resistant boots.  Same thing
10   with gloves and rain gear.
11             MR. DADDURA:  You really don't supervise
12   anyone, do you?  As I read your certificate, you really
13   don't say, Hey, Joe, go in there and start work.
14             MR. DOVINH:  I do, I do.  OSHA regulation 1915
15   allow me to prescribe respiratory protection for workers,
16   allow me to determine when it's safe for hot work and
17   when it's not, allow me to certify people to enter in
18   toxic and hazardous chemical tank, we'll call them.
19        OSHA also allow me to give more verbal and written
20   instruction to the ship repair industry, and they must
21   follow both verbal and written.  There is no other
22   regulation like that in the industry.
23             MR. DADDURA:  That's correct or in OSHA.
24             MR. DOVINH:  Yes.  And my friends down there
25   can testify to you, that I'm very humble most of the
0170
 1   time.
 2             MR. DADDURA:  I can see that by your testimony
 3   today.
 4        That's all the questions I have.
 5             MS. SHORTALL:  Ms. Brinkerhoff has questions.
 6             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  You mentioned a regulation or
 7   proposed standard might conflict with another federal
 8   regulation, and I'm wondering which that one is.
 9             MR. DOVINH:  You ask a very tough question, and
10   I'm prepared to answer that.
11        That has to do with the housekeeping part.  In the
12   back of that part, if you read carefully, OSHA says we
13   have to take care of vermin, pests.  And the definition
14   of vermin includes birds.  And guess what?  Our industry
15   process fish and salmon all over Alaska.  Eagle is a
16   protected species.  Eagle is a scavenger.  Eagles like to
17   hang around and mess up everybody's car.  If we were to
18   follow your regulation, we would have to control those
19   birds.  To control them, we have to shot them or kill
20   them.
21        No. 2, there are seals and lions that would climb
22   around on the dock, the same dock that these people are
23   trying to do ship repair.  They are messy and stinky and
24   noisy.  To get rid of those pests, we would have to shot
25   them according to the current federal regulation.  And
0171
 1   environmental law, we cannot even scare them by noise,
 2   let alone trying to get rid of them.  That's what I mean.
 3             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  I actually found that part of
 4   your testimony really interesting.
 5             MR. DOVINH:  Thank you.
 6             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Because you talk about some
 7   vermin being friends of workers, and I'm wondering which
 8   vermin those are.
 9             MR. DOVINH:  You know, in the shipyard once in
10   a while you see a cat and the seagulls and different
11   kinds of birds, even squirrels and even rats.  And some
12   of these workers, these welders and pipefitters, they
13   look like macho, but they have a soft heart.  They like
14   to feed these animals.  That's what relieves the stress
15   during the lunch and the break hours.  I don't think we
16   should get rid of those animals.
17             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  I have a question about your
18   Pelican flashlight.
19             MR. DOVINH:  Yes.
20             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  How much did that cost?
21             MR. DOVINH:  It used to be $26.99 and now it's
22   about $35 each.
23             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Is that explosive --
24             MR. DOVINH:  It is.
25             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  -- explosion proof?
0172
 1             MR. DOVINH:  Yes.  That's the same kind the
 2   U.S. Coast Guard is using.
 3             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  How often do you need to tell
 4   your clients they need to be using explosion-proof
 5   flashlights?
 6             MR. DOVINH:  According to your Regulation 1915,
 7   anytime the atmospheric condition rates above 10 percent
 8   of the lower exposure limit or anytime the residues, the
 9   coding or the product might regenerate, might regenerate
10   over 10 percent, then they have to use explosion-proof
11   equipment.
12             MS. BRINKEROFF:  How often does that happen?
13             MR. DOVINH:  I don't let that happen.  I make
14   sure they use explosion-proof equipment and ventilate it
15   until it goes back to zero.  OSHA allow up to 10 percent.
16   And we follow zero, because we like zero percent error
17   rate much better than 10.
18        Once you ventilate down to zero and maintain a
19   continuous ventilation, there is no chance for anything
20   to regenerate.  If there is anything that regenerate, it
21   will get evacuated.  That way the workers continue to use
22   conventional electrical tool.  It doesn't have to be
23   intrinsically safe in that space.
24             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Then as I was reading your
25   written comments, I'm not sure if I got this right or
0173
 1   not, but were you saying that our proposed standard might
 2   also conflict with, especially the way hazardous
 3   materials are handled --
 4             MR. DOVINH:  Yes.
 5             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  -- might conflict with --
 6             MR. DOVINH:  The core thing -- I've spent hours
 7   and hours and hours reading your standards, because I
 8   have to know those standards.  These people depend on me.
 9   John can testify to that.  These people call me day in
10   and day out and ask me.
11        I can tell you I know your standard better than 90
12   percent of all of your inspectors here in Seattle.  I can
13   tell you that.  And Mr. Joe Fleck can tell you that, and
14   Mr. Woykowsi can tell you that.  Because we have to know
15   them very well.  We are the one the industry relies on.
16        So the core, the crux of your hazardous energy has
17   to do with the term hazardous energy.  But you don't
18   define it.  If you don't define it, you're leaving it to
19   our industry to fumble in the dark to figure out what it
20   is.
21        I spent over 150 hours preparing 10 pages.  It's
22   condensed, and I put a lot of thought into it.  I know it
23   sounds very aggressive, because I need to get my point
24   across to you.  I'm not rude, but I need to get the
25   information across on behalf of our industry.
0174
 1        I do safety training in Alaska, Texas, California,
 2   Washington and also Oregon, Maryland also and Baltimore.
 3   So I always have to know the local regulations of those
 4   states too.
 5             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  I guess what I was asking was
 6   is there any part of the proposed standard that conflicts
 7   with any of those local regulations?
 8             MR. DOVINH:  Well, it's not conflict, it's
 9   incomplete.  Right now it's top heavy, it's only biased
10   towards the energy, the electrical energy.  And I gave
11   you the statistics of 70 percent, 25 percent and five and
12   six percent.
13        You are basing on five and six of those percent, and
14   even half of that has to do with guarding equipment,
15   guarding moving parts, not pure electrical energy.
16        So the whole standard you are putting the industry
17   through just for one part, and it's not even well
18   defined; thus, it's flawed.
19             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Thank you.  I don't have
20   anymore questions.
21             MS. SHORTALL:  I have some questions.  First of
22   all, Mr. Dovinh, thank you so much for coming to testify
23   at our hearing.
24        Do you know if in shipyards there are substances
25   other than corrosives used in shipyards that could cause
0175
 1   immediate, acute and serious damage if an employee were
 2   splashed with them?
 3             MR. DOVINH:  Yes.
 4             MS. SHORTALL:  Could you tell me some of the
 5   types of substances?
 6             MR. DOVINH:  Sure.  There are tank washes that
 7   carry ureae.  Ureae is corrosive.
 8        They also carry ammonia or ammonia nitrate.  A lot
 9   of these are components that they use to make fertilizer.
10   And maybe halfway through after a year or two years the
11   owners decide to change, they want to change to carry
12   diesel, they may have to send tank cleaners inside these
13   tanks to pressure wash and clean all of these materials
14   and remove them out of these tanks.  It's called a change
15   of products.
16        And during the washing, we take all kinds of
17   precautions.  We don't allow them to wear just the
18   goggles; we're talking about full-face SCBA respirators,
19   fully encapsulated with suits and all of that.  And even
20   with that, there are times that just the rubbing of the
21   cuffs will blister and form bubbles around the wrists and
22   the necks and the ankles.  There are potential.
23        Those are the times when we would require the tank
24   cleaner to set up a continuous flow of eye wash station
25   on deck along with sodium carbonate eye wash bottles.
0176
 1             MS. SHORTALL:  The ammonia that you were
 2   talking about there, is that --
 3             MR. DOVINH:  These are ammonia-based
 4   fertilizers, corrosives.
 5             MS. SHORTALL:  I want to ask if there were
 6   substance other than corrosives.
 7             MR. DOVINH:  Acids?
 8             MS. SHORTALL:  Another person suggested that
 9   they viewed acids as a form of corrosives.  I'm trying to
10   get at other things that are not currently covered by the
11   regulations --
12             MR. DOVINH:  Yes.
13             MS. SHORTALL:  -- that if an employee were
14   splashed with them could result in immediate, acute or
15   serious damage.
16             MR. DOVINH:  Sure, I'll give you two.  Sewage
17   tank is a hydrogen sulfide gas.  Hydrogen sulfide gas is
18   explosive, toxic and it's acidic gas.  If a high
19   concentration of that is around, it would irritate your
20   eyes tremendously.  And what happens is if you get
21   exposed to that kind of gas, the irritation of your eyes
22   causes the person to try to run and get away.
23        And many times it's not the gas that kills them,
24   it's the physical hazard by bumping his head against the
25   bulkhead and bleeding to death.
0177
 1        Another example is ammonia from refrigeration
 2   system.  That's corrosive, toxic and explosive.
 3             MS. SHORTALL:  I've got very good examples now
 4   of the corrosives.  I want you to tell me are there any
 5   substances that are not corrosives that cause --
 6             MR. DOVINH:  I'll give you the other one.  The
 7   fishing industry has fish oil tanks.  Fish oil tanks has
 8   this omega 3 oil from salmon roe and all that, good
 9   stuff.  It has about another 15,000 different chemicals,
10   God knows what.  We know that they burn our eyes every
11   time we get into it without ventilation and without
12   full-face respiratory protection.  We don't know what it
13   is.
14             MS. SHORTALL:  And if a person didn't have all
15   of that on and they were splashed with that, they could
16   experience immediate, acute and serious damage to their
17   eyes and --
18             MR. DOVINH:  Yes.
19             MS. SHORTALL:  -- their skin?
20             MR. DOVINH:  Yes.
21             MS. SHORTALL:  Do you --
22             MR. DOVINH:  What we do is we take measures,
23   because we are the ones who authorize them to go into
24   those tanks.  We take the responsibility.  We have
25   cleaned the tank remotely from the manhole opening, okay,
0178
 1   so by the time they finish, 80 percent of the produce
 2   would have been removed.
 3        There is another way to clean these tanks.  They
 4   have what they call butterworth tank cleaning systems.
 5   These are mechanical nozzles that you put inside these
 6   tanks through the manhole opening, and they can spin at
 7   high velocity, and you can space them in different areas
 8   within the tank.
 9        The mechanical nozzle would clean and get everything
10   down to 99 -- remove 99 percent, and then the remaining
11   one percent the tank cleaner would go in after we
12   authorize entry to clean up the remaining prior to the
13   rest of the workers going in for prepping or hot work or
14   whatever.
15        Even though it's dangerous and toxic, there are
16   existing procedures that we can do safely.  The marine
17   chemist program has been in place since 1922.  We have 86
18   years of experience in the industry.
19             MS. SHORTALL:  So in places where those types
20   of non-corrosive substances are present, are shipyards or
21   vessels today currently providing eye wash or quick
22   drench facilities in case someone were to get splashed?
23             MR. DOVINH:  I have seen some on vessels, and I
24   have seen various locations within the shipyard.  It
25   depends on how big the shipyard is.  Some little
0179
 1   shipyards may only have one in the front office, just for
 2   the owner, huh.
 3        The bigger shipyards, like Todd Shipyard, they have
 4   them right at the entrance to the dry dock or the pier.
 5   So there are stations.
 6        Now, if I was running a job, doing inspection, and
 7   if I knew that these are materials that could cause eye
 8   irritation or burning, I would require them to have it.
 9             MS. SHORTALL:  Is a marine chemist present
10   every time a tank is cleaned?
11             MR. DOVINH:  Ballice tanks, water tanks, they
12   don't have to have me.  But they still have to have a
13   competent person who acts similarly to the capacity of a
14   marine chemist.  He has less training, less authority and
15   less in term of capability to test for toxics, and less
16   experience when compared to a marine chemist, but he's
17   the king in his yard when it comes to safety.
18        In fact, I can tell you there is only 100 marine
19   chemists in the industry.  It's not the marine chemists
20   that keep this industry safe.  I must and all 99 of my
21   other marine chemist associates agree that it's a
22   competent person in these shipyards that keep them safe
23   from confined space entry to lockout/tagout de-energize
24   it's the shipyard competent person program.
25             MS. SHORTALL:  Changing the subject a little
0180
 1   bit, I want to go back to sanitation.  On fishing vessels
 2   as well as shipyards when you've been doing inspections,
 3   do you see people drinking and smoking and eating
 4   wherever they want or have you seen employers say you may
 5   do that only in this area?
 6             MR. DOVINH:  As far as I know, the big
 7   shipyards, medium shipyards and the small shipyards, they
 8   all have some kind of policy in place.  Whether or not
 9   the employees follow it is a different thing.
10        Now, if you were to ask me what about the fisherman
11   over at Fisherman Terminal, I don't think they have any
12   policy.
13             MS. SHORTALL:  So let's say the ones that do
14   have those designated areas, what are they doing to keep
15   vermin out of those areas and the feces and the waste
16   that those vermin produce so --
17             MR. DOVINH:  They can't --
18             MS. SHORTALL:  Let me just finish.  So
19   employees actually are eating and drinking without
20   getting exposed to those types of waste contaminants?
21             MR. DOVINH:  From what I've seen, most of the
22   areas where the workers and employees sit and eat, I do
23   not see any animal waste.  I do see garbage and coffee
24   cups and potato chip bags and things like that.  I see
25   dirt and oil, but I don't see any rats running around.
0181
 1             MS. SHORTALL:  What are they doing to keep --
 2             MR. DOVINH:  Most places have some kind of
 3   laborer that sweep up the area periodically.  But when
 4   they can't find a place to sit, they'll sweep it up.
 5             MS. SHORTALL:  What are they doing to keep the
 6   vermin out of the area other than sweeping up?  I know
 7   when you go on a beach, you sit there, you start taking
 8   out your sandwich, every gull in the area wants --
 9             MR. DOVINH:  Sure.
10             MS. SHORTALL:  -- something.  What are they
11   doing to try to keep that away from those types of areas
12   so that employees won't be exposed to those contaminants?
13             MR. DOVINH:  It's a simple question for you,
14   but it's a difficult answer for me because that's out of
15   my jurisdiction.  I have nothing to do with vermin in
16   shipyards.
17             MS. SHORTALL:  I'm not saying -- I'm just
18   asking you because you've been around all of these places
19   what your observation is.
20             MR. DOVINH:  All of these years, I haven't seen
21   anybody using any kind of bait to kill them except for
22   the City of Seattle.  I don't see any shipyard putting
23   bait or poison or anything.
24        The only place is the City of Seattle, and they're
25   doing that because a lot of rats underneath the crawl
0182
 1   space at the north police precinct in north Seattle.
 2   Every month we come over and we do crawl space entry
 3   before these trappers and these cures went in and get rid
 4   of the rats.
 5             MS. SHORTALL:  This is sort of just a
 6   frustration question for me, and maybe you can help me
 7   with it.  We've had a number of employers come in here
 8   and talk about some of the regulations that they have
 9   difficulty with, and some of the regulations they've
10   having difficulty with have been OSHA regulations for 30
11   years.
12             MR. DOVINH:  I agree.
13             MS. SHORTALL:  I'm sitting here going, well,
14   what have they been doing for 30 years.  Can you --
15             MR. DOVINH:  Yes.
16             MS. SHORTALL:  -- help me understand.  Are they
17   just not been aware of --
18             MR. DOVINH:  Very simple.
19             MS. SHORTALL:  -- the regulation; do they just
20   don't think even though they say shipyard employment that
21   they don't apply to them?
22             MR. DOVINH:  Very simple answer.
23             MS. SHORTALL:  What is that?
24             MR. DOVINH:  Even the marine chemist, the
25   industrial hygienist, your own OSHA inspector and even
0183
 1   people on your panel, I guarantee you, every one of us
 2   have difficulty with certain OSHA regulations.  I don't
 3   blame our industry.  The general industry, the
 4   construction industry, the petroleum industry, every
 5   single industry, they all have parts or segments of the
 6   industry that have problems with the current regulation.
 7        The mining industry has been around for 200 years.
 8   They blow up mines and kill people hundreds of times,
 9   still happening, still happening.
10             MS. SHORTALL:  I'll give you an example.  On
11   the books currently existing regulation says shipyard
12   employers must eliminate slippery conditions as they
13   occur.  And it's like everyone has come in and said, you
14   can't require that, and I guess my first reaction is,
15   well, it's been there for 30 years.
16        Can you tell me from your own observation what
17   shipyard employers have been doing.  Have they been
18   eliminating slippery conditions as they occur or have
19   they not been or do they not understand the rule?
20             MR. DOVINH:  They do understand.  The rule that
21   you propose now, expanding on that a little further, and
22   it has to be expanded a little bit more.  And because the
23   nature of the ship repair and the commercial fishing
24   industry, water, ice, slip, trip, I mean, that's part of
25   life.  These are risks that our industry know that we
0184
 1   cannot get rid of.  These are the same risks that you
 2   think that we can get rid of.  That's the difference.
 3   These risks will remain with us forever, and we cannot
 4   get rid of them.
 5             MS. SHORTALL:  I believe the risk remains, that
 6   there will always be slippery conditions that occur.  Are
 7   you saying that because they have always occurred they
 8   are not being cleaned up as they occur or are you
 9   saying --
10             MR. DOVINH:  They try to clean them up.  For
11   example, on a deck of a steam vessel, they need to weld
12   on a deck and it's raining here in Seattle.  They try to
13   put up a pump.  They try to do cement to build a little
14   containment.  They do that right now already, right now
15   already they're doing that.
16        But they cannot stop welding in the rain on the wet
17   surface.  They can only minimize and reduce.  There are
18   tanks that has water and the competent person has been
19   trained, they know by experience.  They're not going to
20   send in a welder to weld inside because saltwater
21   transfer occur.  So they will have that pumped out first.
22             MS. SHORTALL:  Going on to lockout/tagout,
23   during the regular course of replacing equipment, are
24   shipyards and vessels now able to obtain replacement
25   equipment that is lockable, No. 1; and No. 2, how long a
0185
 1   period of time would it take to have almost all the
 2   equipment be lockable just simply through the normal
 3   course of replacement?
 4             MR. DOVINH:  I think there will always be some
 5   equipment that cannot be locked.  I'll give you an
 6   example.  If you have these vent lines and fuel lines
 7   that people need to be welding on because it has a
 8   pinhole leak, according to your regulations, they would
 9   have to be blanked.  That's what you say right now,
10   you've got to blank it before you do the work.  These
11   lines, the flanges that connect the section of the pipe
12   together are inside of a fuel oil tank.  How can you
13   blank it?
14             MS. SHORTALL:  That's not my question.  My
15   question was this:  As shipyard employers and vessels are
16   replacing equipment, have they been able to obtain
17   equipment that is lockable?
18             MR. DOVINH:  I think some.
19             MS. SHORTALL:  If we were to give a significant
20   period of time, such as 10 years, for employers to as
21   they change out equipment get lockable equipment with the
22   few exceptions that you're mentioning there, would we be
23   able to see these employers move to almost full lockable
24   equipment?
25             MR. DOVINH:  You know, I've been around only
0186
 1   for 20-some years, I'm not that old.  I'm still a kid,
 2   especially in Joe's eyes.  I don't think that even 10
 3   years or 20 years in the industry might be able to change
 4   out everything.
 5        I think the best option is that there are vessels
 6   that have the old equipment.  The next best thing for
 7   them is to scrap that vessel and buy another one that is
 8   15 years younger that they might be able to upgrade
 9   equipment in a more effective manner.  Some of these
10   vessels, it cost more money to upgrade and change
11   equipment out.  It might take forever.
12             MS. SHORTALL:  I'm not talking about going in
13   and upgrading today; I'm talking only about when you go
14   through the normal course of replacing pieces of
15   equipment, not forcing anyone to replace equipment, but
16   now this piece of equipment is worn out and it no longer
17   works and we've got to get something new.
18             MR. DOVINH:  Yes.
19             MS. SHORTALL:  Do you think by and large
20   shipyard employers and vessels will be able as they move
21   down the road to replace that equipment with lockable
22   equipment?
23             MR. DOVINH:  I answered that already.  I
24   believe some of them they can, but not all of them.  And
25   some may take a shorter amount of time; some maybe they
0187
 1   can never do it.  I just don't know.  I don't think it
 2   can be done.
 3             MS. SHORTALL:  I appreciate you trying to
 4   hazard a guess for me.  Oops, I used the word hazard.
 5        Mr. Dovinh, thank you ever so much for coming here
 6   and giving your testimony and for the time that you spent
 7   in developing it, and we look forward to your comments
 8   during the post-hearing comment period too.  Thank you
 9   again.
10             MR. DOVINH:  Thank you very much.
11             JUDGE GEE:  Thank you, Mr. Dovinh.
12        Let's take a five-minute break.
13           (Recess from 3:04 p.m. to 3:15 p.m.)
14             MS. SHORTALL:  Your Honor, I would like to ask
15   if anybody other than Mr. Tinker has written testimony
16   they would like to give to me to put into the record.
17             MR. DIXON:  I have an exhibit.
18             MS. SHORTALL:  Your Honor, I would like to
19   enter into the record the hard copy of Mr. Tinker's Power
20   Point presentation as Exhibit 0183, and the Grass Grow
21   Back Starter Kit with Grinder Cost Sheet as Exhibit 0184.
22             JUDGE GEE:  Thank you.  So ordered.
23        Our next panel is a combination of the panel that
24   was previously identified as Panel 4 and 5.  The members
25   of this panel are Frank Townsend, Dick Webster, Robert
0188
 1   Tinker and Doug Dixon.  We will being taking testimony
 2   from Mr. Townsend, Mr. Webster and Mr. Tinker.  It's my
 3   understanding that Mr. Dixon testified in Washington DC.
 4   So he will be available today for questioning.
 5        Mr. Townsend, would you like to begin, please, and
 6   please state your full name and affiliation.
 7             MR. TOWNSEND:  My name is Frank Townsend.  I'm
 8   the owner and operator of Petersburg Shipwrights,
 9   Incorporated in Petersburg, Alaska.
10        I have a hard act to follow there.  I took the
11   shipyard competence from Phil.  I'm a very small company,
12   and that's why I came today to testify was that a lot of
13   the regulations are for larger shipyards.  People may
14   think a shipyard is a shipyard, but I have five employees
15   working in the field, and I feel that some of the
16   regulations are just expensive.
17        I was telling one of the fellows I got cited for not
18   putting signs on my mezzanines last year.  The shipyard
19   is 55 years old, and I didn't have the weight regulations
20   on them.
21        There are regulations in here that are probably 30
22   years old that I have no idea how to read them, you know,
23   how to interpret them.  So I hired Amy Duz to help me,
24   and she gives me a phone call every now and then and
25   says, it looks like chromium is going to be your next
0189
 1   battle.
 2        So last year I rebuilt my mezzanines instead of
 3   upgrading my staging.  So I think maybe there should be a
 4   thought about how much it costs the small shipyard to
 5   comply or not do the business, which is what we decided
 6   to do with the chromium.  We no longer weld stainless.
 7   It's kind of a sad way to go, but that's what happens.
 8        I believe the AED question, somehow if you're going
 9   to require them, there should be a distance or the time
10   to get to one.  I have a state ferry system on one side
11   of me within a block, and I have the Coast Guard based on
12   the other side within a block.
13        I just had an incident at the shop where a young man
14   basically dropped a grinder, and it ran up his arm.  It
15   was totally guarded.  It came up and cut him on the neck.
16   He was bleeding pretty good.  He got himself out of the
17   hole.
18        But by the time the people got there, it was less
19   than five minutes, there was a defibrillator and a cage
20   basket already there.  The local EMT's had arrived one at
21   a time with each one of their components, and they didn't
22   want our components.  We had a backboard all ready to go,
23   but like other fellows have said, they like to use their
24   own equipment.
25        I'm probably rambling in all directions, but I was
0190
 1   trying to get what would affect me.  I've got some great
 2   ideas.  But I do believe that regulations should be cost
 3   effective, however, however that works.  I know it
 4   doesn't work.  People like to save lives.  But when we're
 5   clumped in with the 10 to 50 employees, it makes it
 6   really unreasonable for us to comply.
 7        Thanks.
 8             JUDGE GEE:  Mr. Webster?
 9             MR. WEBSTER:  Good afternoon, my name is
10   Richard Webster.  I'm with Marine Industries Northwest.
11   We are a small shipyard operated in Tacoma, about 30
12   miles south of here.
13        The shipyard has been in existence since 1976.  I've
14   been with them since 1979.  My original venue is
15   treasurer, but I've been with safety and environmental
16   compliance as well.
17        We have a dry dock at our facility.  We have a way
18   in which we can haul vessels out, and we've also got
19   about 400 feet of dock space located on about three to
20   four acres.  It's hard to tell, but three to four acres.
21        We're averaging five union workers, six trade
22   unions, probably 40 to 125 depending on the season and
23   the amount of job activity.  Customers are primarily
24   commercial tug and barge operators, intercoastal
25   transport companies, the small ones, we do several of
0191
 1   them that go between Seattle and southeast Alaska and up
 2   into the Anchorage area.  We do some work for the Navy,
 3   fighting barges.  We don't get the big equipment in, but
 4   we do a lot of the barge and some of their base
 5   equipment.  We do a fair amount of work for the Army.
 6   They've got a landing craft based down in Tacoma.  So
 7   they've got their equipment plus their support equipment,
 8   so we do a fair amount of work with them.
 9        Haven't done much work with the State of Washington
10   because our facility isn't big enough, and the vessels
11   have a bigger compartment than what we can offer.
12        We've got support shops for our tools and supplies
13   and basically everything that is bought for jobs that
14   come into the yard.  We don't have a big inventory space.
15   But the job site is the job, which takes care of the land
16   side.  And based on these new regulations, we've got some
17   confusion when you're talking about the job site and the
18   job, and some of these activities is a very fine line
19   between which is the job site and the job when you repair
20   because you need to start taking things apart, you're
21   putting things back together at the same time as you're
22   taking things apart in the next phase.  And it becomes a
23   very complicated environment very soon.
24        So even though your job activity could be over in
25   that corner, you could be staging, you've got equipment
0192
 1   coming in and out.  We've got six different crafts
 2   involved, and you might have boilermakers in there for an
 3   hour or two and then they've got to pull it back, you put
 4   a pipefitter or a machinist come in and may do some work,
 5   and then they go back and pursue their activity.  So
 6   there is a lot of working coming and going.
 7        It makes it very difficult when you're talking about
 8   pulling back leads and extension cords.  We try to keep
 9   them out of their way.  But to pull them back when
10   they're not working, you get into a definition of if you
11   need it 15 minutes from now, then you pull them out and
12   then put them back in 15 minutes.
13        Color coding is one thing I wanted to talk about.
14   We work on an awful lot of barges, 400 feet long, 99 feet
15   wide, go into the bottom of those to renew the structure,
16   because they're either wasted away or they've got a new
17   type of deck load and they need extra reinforcing for
18   that load.  You go in there and you are going to find
19   beams down there anywhere from 12 to 18 inches high,
20   perhaps as high as 24 inches.  Are we suppose to color
21   all of those yellow?  Because yellow is the color for
22   hazards, we are supposed to be identifying blocking
23   hazards.
24        If it was in our facility and we had that, we would
25   have to painted that yellow, so do we have to paint all
0193
 1   of those yellow too.  You take the working planks off the
 2   engine compartment and you're back down into the members
 3   of the vessels.  Do we have to start color coding all of
 4   this yellow, red, as hazardous?  It's just part of the
 5   work environment.
 6        When you remove the manhole you have a frame around
 7   it, it's a tripping hazard.  We've already got a cone
 8   around it.  Do we have to paint it yellow?  These all
 9   need to be color coded, as I understand.
10        What else did I have to say here.
11        Oh, this eye wash drenching situation.  It's my
12   understanding that the language has been changed from
13   caustic to hazardous material.  Spray cans are a, quote,
14   hazardous materials.  Do we need an eye wash station next
15   to wherever there was a can of spray paint?  The paint
16   that we're applying to the vessels is hazardous material.
17   From an environmental aspect, that's all hazardous
18   material.  Where we store all of this hazardous material,
19   do we need an eye wash station there?
20        I can appreciate for the caustic soda, but just for
21   something that may have caused a problem and happens to
22   be hazardous, it just seems to be totally overkill.
23        There were a lot of ambiguous statements in this
24   coding that I wanted to point out.  But there was a
25   comment I want to make real quick, because it just
0194
 1   crossed my mind, and that's on this flashlight, what you
 2   saw this morning when John had a light on his hard hat.
 3   It would be much more effective if you're in a confined
 4   space or you're down in the bottom of a barge, there's
 5   probably 99 percent chance that you're going to have to
 6   climb a ladder or some other way that got you in there.
 7   If you have something in your hand and then you have two
 8   hands on the ladder when you're trying to get out, I
 9   thought that was a very blatant hazard.
10        There is no call for that at all.  When you're
11   trying to get the employee out safely, it would be much
12   better to have something that he could clip on rather
13   than something that he has to hold in his hands when he's
14   trying to get out of it.  Chances are he's going to drop
15   it.
16        You used the terminology over and over again,
17   adequate, adequate.  Adequate number of first aid kits,
18   adequate number of -- adequate supplies.  Let's see, the
19   term adequate is just begging for definition.  What's
20   adequate is just like you were saying with regards to
21   frequent inspections.  If there is an accident, then they
22   weren't frequent enough.  What is adequate?  If I have 30
23   guys down there, then you'll have 30 definitions of what
24   adequate is.
25        I love the 35 foot rule for hot work.  Everybody
0195
 1   knows what 35 feet is up, down, either way, to the next
 2   compartment.  Adequate to 35 different people is totally
 3   confusing.  It's either ripe for abuse or just punitive
 4   penalties as this gentleman was talking about.  The
 5   inspector comes in, he says that's not adequate to me,
 6   and here you are, he's up in Petersburg.
 7        Work area is also an awkward definition.  You've got
 8   work location and work area, but you really don't define
 9   what it is.  So is it like 35 feet from that corner with
10   that welder over there, or is it within 10 feet.  You
11   haven't -- you guys haven't had your visit as far as the
12   vessels yet.  It would have been very helpful if you had
13   it before you heard the testimony so then you can see how
14   confusing these vessels become.  You take them all apart
15   and you still only have the confines of the deck of the
16   vessel to have as your workspace.  It gets very, very
17   complicated as to why you maintain space and working
18   conditions.
19        So it would be helpful to have work area were much
20   better defined than it is right now.
21        You cannot make the risk disappear by more rules for
22   language.  You've got plenty of rules that have already
23   been in place for a number of years.
24        Education would be extremely helpful.  We work with
25   WISHA on our land site operations.  I think OSHA has just
0196
 1   come up with Mike Bronkowski.  I may have mispronounced
 2   his last name.  That's been the last couple of months
 3   he's been signed as the and he's been an advocate for --
 4   as a noncompliant adequate where an employer could call
 5   up and ask their advise and get some input.  I think
 6   that's extremely helpful.
 7        The membership in the PSSA that we are involved in
 8   for the small shipyard standpoint is extremely helpful
 9   because we get the insight from the marine chemists and
10   that which we don't have.  I wear several hats.  The
11   people at the larger shipyards, they've got people with
12   single hats and they can really focus, but it's really
13   nice to get their oversight and also their insight.
14        One thing I didn't mention which I wanted to go back
15   to is we do dockings, we do about two dockings a month.
16   At a small shipyard we have smaller jobs, they don't stay
17   as long, and it's something I wanted to point out.
18        On our dock-side work, we do about 10 dock side jobs
19   a month.  At least one half of them are less than 100 man
20   hours in the job.  If something comes in, it's there for
21   two or three days, you set up, you have an immediate
22   small repair that they need to take care of and it's gone
23   away in two or three days.
24        We also do voyager care work out of our yard.  We do
25   about six of those jobs a month.  About two-thirds of
0197
 1   those are less than 100 man hours.  Based on the lack of
 2   clarity, our costs could go up considerably as far as the
 3   staging and the pull back requirements which is going to
 4   increase and that we're going to have to bill our
 5   customers.
 6        One thing I don't think OSHA wants is for the work
 7   to go away because our customers are economic entities as
 8   well.  Their costs go up, they're going to try to find a
 9   cheaper way to do it.
10        All of our customers have their own berthing
11   stations where they have their vessels when they're not
12   being used.  And if they start going to basically, I just
13   call them pickup truck operators, where they don't have a
14   facility through OSHA to visit anywhere close to their
15   pier site, you're not even going to have a place to
16   inspect.
17        At least with the shipyards you can maintain an idea
18   as to what the culture of safety is within that shipyard.
19   You have a place to visit, you have a place to inspect.
20   If you drive the small jobs out of the smaller shipyards,
21   you won't find them, and employees certainly are not
22   going to be safer.
23        Those are my comments, and I appreciate the ability
24   to share them with you.
25             JUDGE GEE:  Thank you, Mr. Webster.  Mr.
0198
 1   Tinker.
 2             MR. TINKER:  Thank you, Judge Gee.  My name is
 3   Robert Tinker, and I appreciate the opportunity to share
 4   my comments.  I'm representing Fishing Vessel Owners
 5   Marine Ways, Incorporated, referred to as FVO.  That's
 6   the term that we refer to ourselves as.
 7        We're located at the Port of Seattle Fisherman's
 8   Terminal since 1917.  We like to advertise ourselves as a
 9   medium-sized shipyard located within the Port of Seattle
10   Fisherman's Terminal.
11        Looking at the above pictures, starting on the left
12   side, which is a view of the water -- a view from the
13   water looking at the two main railways used to pull
14   vessels out of the water.
15        And moving right, we have moorage for dockside
16   repair along with an approximately 300-foot concrete
17   pier.
18        This is an aerial view of the Port of Seattle
19   Fisherman's Terminal, outlined in green, which includes
20   FVO's approximately two-acre shipyard, on the east side
21   outlined in yellow.
22        The operations we conduct are not limited to the
23   site.  However, the majority of the services we offer and
24   perform do take place within the yellow boundary.
25        The primary exception to that is our outside
0199
 1   machinist staff of five employees that regularly perform
 2   service to vessels on and off site.
 3        Vessels we repair are primarily small commercial
 4   fishing vessels, typically under 100 feet.  The hulls are
 5   predominantly wood, steel and aluminum, and we repair
 6   approximately 113 vessels a year.
 7        Our haul-out facilities are made up of two marine
 8   railways, 300- and 500-ton capacity, operating
 9   approximately 60 times each year.
10        I hope these general pictures and description of our
11   operations bring additional understanding of small to
12   medium-sized shipyard.
13        With that being said, on behalf of FVO, I'd like to
14   say that many elements of the proposed rule will be and
15   have been spoken about at length today.  And while time
16   does not allow that I comment on all of these elements as
17   well, I would like to express my support for the comments
18   of my colleagues.
19        In addition, I would like OSHA to note my support of
20   the written comments of the Puget Sound Shipbuilders
21   Association, specifically oppose a feeling in our
22   industry approach to lockout/tagout in shipyards.  This
23   approach does not adequately acknowledge or address the
24   challenges we face while working in a maritime
25   environment.
0200
 1        Along with my colleagues, I encourage OSHA to study
 2   best practices and work harder to find a solution that is
 3   practical and will adequately protect our employees.
 4        I also ask that OSHA provide specific definitions in
 5   the final rule as well as language that is precise and
 6   achievable.
 7        FVO currently employees 32 people today, and
 8   personally in the last year I've seen our numbers spike
 9   up to close to 50 employees and back down.  I would like
10   to share a perspective from a small business like FVO
11   associated with effectiveness and cost issues pertaining
12   to the proposed general working conditions in shipyard
13   employment.
14        To start, specifically 1915.93, designated lanes of
15   travel.  Given the capacity of the work areas in our
16   relatively small site, we feel it is more effective to
17   educate our employees of hazards associated with
18   pedestrians, bicycles and motor vehicle traffic rather
19   than install lanes of travel that will routinely need to
20   be broken to perform our service.  FVO feels that
21   educating increases awareness, while the lanes of travel
22   and control devices encourage the employee to take the
23   danger that is still present for granted.
24        Eye wash stations.  We have three eye wash stations
25   located on the vicinity of the primary areas that
0201
 1   chemicals are being applied and fabrication is being
 2   performed.  Given the proposed rule of 10 seconds from
 3   any location, that would mean we would have a single
 4   employee using a chemical such as WD 40, carburetor
 5   cleaner, anti-splatter, that we would need to at least
 6   triple the amount of eye wash stations and line this
 7   300-foot concrete pier within approximately 100 feet on
 8   each side to be within 10 seconds.  And that's up in the
 9   far left corner of the yellow outlined area there.
10        I would just like to expand on that a little bit.
11   Our eye wash stations, I feel in the last year that I've
12   been there, have been adequate.  We have had a rash of
13   eye injuries with just foreign objects entering the eyes,
14   approximately six in the last year, and working with our
15   consultant and really pushed for double eye protection
16   and encouraged that with our employees.  But as far as
17   chemicals in the eye, we feel the three in the positions
18   that they are are sufficient.
19        First aid, 1915.87, we need clarification on work
20   location.  If we interpret that as each vessel that the
21   services are being performed on on our site, then we'll
22   need to increase our first aid stations by approximately
23   300 percent.  The first aid stations we currently utilize
24   are available to all employees without restrictions, and
25   this amount is sufficient for our site.
0202
 1        1915.88(d)(2), sewered toilets.  The legal intent is
 2   to have a sewer toilet that has necessary lighting and
 3   heating and proper facilities to sanitize hands available
 4   to every employee.  In the interest of temporary growth
 5   in employment, requiring the use of a minimum of one
 6   portable unsewered toilet facility that does not require
 7   heating or running water.  Frankly, the portable toilet
 8   used will be primarily used as a urinal and the cost
 9   associated with portable toilets is a difference of $85
10   per week for a toilet that is unheated and equipped with
11   hand sanitizer which includes regular inspections and
12   servicing needs as compared to greater than $2000 a week
13   for portable facilities equipped with heat and running
14   water, plus additional costs for servicing.
15        Cost of this $2000 is approximately greater than
16   five percent of our weekly payroll as we are right now.
17   A site our size could have an additional cost of
18   approximately 50 hours per employee per week.
19        These few issues that I brought up in hopes that
20   OSHA recognizes the economic impact versus the
21   effectiveness associated with the proposed rule for small
22   business.  I've personally only been a part of the
23   shipyard industry for 11 months and have appreciated
24   OSHA's local participation with the Puget Sound
25   Shipbuilders Association.
0203
 1        In addition, I also have enjoyed the pleasure of
 2   participating with the OSHA inspection at FVO this
 3   summer.  And I look forward in the future to learning
 4   more through the services offered by OSHA.
 5        Thank you for this opportunity to share my comments
 6   and I appreciate your time and consideration.
 7             JUDGE GEE:  Thank you, Mr. Tinker.
 8        Is there anybody in the audience with questions for
 9   the panel?
10             MR. RAINSBERGER:  Is this the appropriate time
11   to ask Mr. Dixon a question?
12             JUDGE GEE:  Yes, please identify yourself and
13   your affiliation.
14             MR. RAINSBERGER:  My name is Al Rainsberger.
15   I'm the president of the Puget Sound Shipbuilders
16   Association, and I'm the safety director at Foss
17   Maritime.  I gave testimony first thing this morning.
18        I just noticed that Mr. Dixon brought what looks to
19   me to be a palm sander.  I didn't know what the purpose
20   of that was.  Can I ask him that question?
21             JUDGE GEE:  Sure.
22             MR. DIXON:   Thanks for asking that.  But my
23   question that I was going to ask is a similar one of the
24   three panel members.  This is a palm sander.  Do you guys
25   ever use these in your shipyards?
0204
 1             MR. TINKER:  We have them in our carpenter
 2   shop.
 3             MR. WEBSTER:  We have them in our carpenter
 4   shop also.
 5             MR. DIXON:  This is a rather standard device
 6   throughout he shipyards and also in the 79,000 or
 7   whatever fishing vessels that we're talking about.  All
 8   of the wood vessels -- there are a lot of wood vessels
 9   out there, but oftentimes the steel ones too, have this
10   have this type of device there.
11        And, Sarah, this is really directed towards that one
12   comment about the 30 years have you guys really been
13   violating OSHA regulations for 30 years, and the answer
14   is absolutely yes.  There is no deadman switch on here.
15   It's a portable electrical device.  It violates 1915, I
16   forget what it is.  It's a direct violation.  It's been
17   going on for 30 years.
18        And this is just a small part of it.  And the other
19   issue that I testified in DC that I couldn't find any
20   with deadman switches, I did get pointed out by one of
21   our colleagues when they saw my testimony, back east we
22   found some that range from $900 to $1600 without even the
23   vacuum device that the policy is demanding.  So $900 to
24   $1600 for a replacement for this, and it's not even a
25   vibrating style, but it's air actuated.  And most of the
0205
 1   smaller vessels don't have air on board that can power
 2   this type of thing.  It is an electrical device.  It just
 3   does not have the deadman switch.
 4        When you get into the conditions where our policy is
 5   now for grinders and putting us into a position, it's a
 6   tremendous cost, it's a tremendous burden.
 7        But really, my request to you was not just to look
 8   at the new regulations but the 30-year-old regulations
 9   and find a proactive way to take the things that are not
10   really safety inherent here and find a way to help
11   rewrite the 30-year regulations so that we can be
12   compliant and have a safer operating thing and identify
13   what is safe and what isn't.
14        Then I have a second question for these guys, and
15   that is, I'm preparing at OSHA's request, going through
16   our OSHA 300, seeing what our loss records are and severe
17   versus none.  Have you guys had any deaths at your
18   shipyards in recent history?
19             MR. TINKER:  I have personally asked the
20   president of FVO who has been there 35 years, and the
21   company has been since 1917, and he says we have not had
22   any facility in the whole history of the company.
23             MR. DIXON:  And how about significant serious
24   accidents?
25             MR. WEBSTER:  I'll answer for our company.  We
0206
 1   have had no deaths.  We've about been in business since
 2   1979.  We have had one serious accident, and it was a
 3   split ring coming off of a forklift, and the guy was
 4   reinflating the tire, and the split ring came off.
 5   That's been our serious accident.
 6             MR. DIXON:  Is that part of the new regulation
 7   that's being tightened up or is that a violation of the
 8   old regulation?
 9             MR. WEBSTER:  I'm not sure if it's a violation
10   underneath either one of them.  We weren't cited for, and
11   it would have fallen under WISHA anyway.
12             MR. TOWNSEND:  We've had no deaths.  The only
13   serious accident that we've had since I owned the company
14   was this young man that set the grinder on his arm.  And
15   it was human error.  But I think it could have been.
16             MR. DIXON:  Did that grinder have a deadman
17   switch on it?
18             MR. TOWNSEND:  It did.
19             MR. DIXON:  My nephew was recently in here
20   three weeks ago buying a grinder in our shipyard that has
21   a deadman switch on it.  The problem with a deadman
22   switch is when you take it off, if your hand falls off
23   the grinder, you drop it, that's what happens.  That
24   grinder wheel is going at 10,000-plus rpm's.  The deadman
25   switch doesn't do anything for you.
0207
 1        And here's something that requires a deadman switch
 2   and it's not going to hurt anybody.  And I challenge you
 3   guys, how many people on the panel actually have one in
 4   their house or have used one in their lifetime.
 5        Can I have a show of hands; is that fair?
 6             MS. SHORTALL:  I think, Mr. Dixon, we are
 7   giving you an awful lot of leeway here --
 8             MR. DIXON:  I understand.
 9             MS. SHORTALL:  -- when this is not the issue
10   before us today.
11             MR. DIXON:  But here is another example of the
12   30-year-old rules where we do need to take a good look at
13   them and find a different way to make us safer.  That's
14   all we're asking.
15             JUDGE GEE:  Is there anyone else in the
16   audience that has a question for the panel?
17        How about the OSHA panel?
18             MS. SHORTALL:  Yes, we have questions.  Amy
19   Wangdahl will start in just a second.
20        Mr. Townsend, you said you had a number of ideas,
21   but then you didn't give any.  Could you just maybe give
22   your ideas and then we'll go into questioning.  We'd love
23   to have your ideas.
24             MR. TOWNSEND:  You want my ideas?  Well, the
25   definition of a shipyard.  I went around and around with
0208
 1   Amy.  I'm not a shipyard, I'm just a little boat yard,
 2   but OSHA says I'm a shipyard.  That was one idea, do I
 3   really, being as small as I am and doing what I do, do I
 4   qualify as a shipyard.
 5        The fellow hauling the boats out with a trailer and
 6   putting them in a side yard, is he a shipyard?  He's my
 7   competition.  It's a one-man operation.  He doesn't have
 8   any OSHA standards doing that.  I just want some clarity.
 9        What was the other one?  The other one was the
10   isolated, enclosed and confined.  Those definitions, it
11   would be nice to have them a little crisper.
12        And those are the two things that I have here.
13             MS. SHORTALL:  Thank you very much, and we'll
14   begin the questioning with Ms. Wangdahl.
15             MS. WANGDAHL:  Mr. Tinker, what is your
16   capacity at FVO?
17             MR. TINKER:  I was hired in November of 2007 in
18   environmental compliance.  Since then I have taken on
19   additional responsibilities including a system safety
20   task.
21             MS. WANGDAHL:  Can you go back to the slide
22   where you showed where the quick drench and the first aid
23   stations are located.  Can you explain to me, let's start
24   with the first aid stations.  All we can see is the
25   building.  What's inside the building?
0209
 1             MR. TINKER:  Well, basically we have a first
 2   aid station to the far left, top one is in our storeroom,
 3   and that's been in the main front building, and that's
 4   equipped with, our, you know, all our internal safety
 5   supplies and that's where we keep our storage of safety
 6   supplies to restock.
 7        The primary thing that goes through is filling it up
 8   and restocking with antacids and cough drops, which is
 9   the big one.
10        The two lower ones that are both inside the machine
11   shop is that lower left one that's at the opposite end of
12   the building, which is where the welders shop is, and the
13   boilermakers one is the one next to it on the right.
14             MS. WANGDAHL:  About how many employers will be
15   working in those building on a typical day?
16             MR. TINKER:  The store comes and goes because
17   we have one employee that runs the -- does purchasing,
18   but that's the easiest access for all employees.
19        In the middle of all of those is the railway that
20   stems from the water, and we can sidestep two or three
21   ships, so we'll have employees primarily working in that
22   area, along with those two railways, so that's the
23   easiest access for them.
24        The welding shop can be, you know, three, four.  I
25   don't typically see more than four people.
0210
 1        The machine shop has about four people regularly
 2   working there.
 3             MS. WANGDAHL:  And then the eye wash stations,
 4   again the top left is in the store again?
 5             MR. TINKER:  Right in the store.
 6             MS. WANGDAHL:  And then the center green X is
 7   in the welding shop?
 8             MR. TINKER:  In the welding shop.
 9             MS. WANGDAHL:  The far right?
10             MR. TINKER:  That is called our winch room, and
11   that is the closest access to basically all the chemical
12   storage.  Our chemical storage is the building next to
13   that just below that.
14        And so, yes, you have a drench station between the
15   machine shop and the welders.  The store is just as
16   accessible for anybody in that center area.  Pretty much
17   all of them are very accessible, I would say well within
18   10 seconds.
19             MS. WANGDAHL:  Were these here before you came
20   on board?
21             MR. TINKER:  Yes, they were.
22             MS. WANGDAHL:  So you may not be able to answer
23   this question, but the decision to put them in these
24   locations, do you know what made that determination?
25             MR. TINKER:  I do not know.
0211
 1             MS. WANGDAHL:  But they seem to be centrally
 2   located?
 3             MR. TINKER:  Yes.
 4             MS. WANGDAHL:  What other provisions have you
 5   made for first aid; do you have CPR trained --
 6             MR. TINKER:  I can get this information for
 7   you, get that to you if you like, but personally I don't
 8   know.
 9             MS. WANGDAHL:  So if there is an accident,
10   what's the procedure, do you know that?
11             MR. TINKER:  For accident procedures?
12             MS. WANGDAHL:  Yes.
13             MR. TINKER:  They are reported to the
14   supervisor.  The supervisor is not required to report the
15   accident directly to us at the time, but the person that
16   had the accident comes straight to the office and reports
17   it to, I believe our Human Resources person, and when she
18   is not there, I have paperwork necessary to, along with
19   the superintendent has paperwork necessary to file a
20   report and to get medical help if they need to go to an
21   additional facility.
22             MS. WANGDAHL:  What if the employee can't get
23   to you; do you have someone on-site that can treat them
24   or do you rely solely on 911?
25             MR. TINKER:  We have somebody -- we rely, in
0212
 1   this picture -- let me get to that picture again.  Yes,
 2   when we rely on 911, we have dock 1, 2 and 3 is the
 3   cement dock on the left, dock 4 is the one next to it on
 4   the left.  At the end of that dock is a fire department,
 5   and that's the proximity of medical services for us,
 6   emergency medical services.
 7             MS. WANGDAHL:  Are they staffed 24/7; is it a
 8   volunteer?
 9             MR. TINKER:  Yes.  No, it's not a volunteer.
10             MS. WANGDAHL:  Mr. Webster, what sort of
11   provisions have you made for first aid at your facility?
12             MR. WEBSTER:  All of our foremen have formal
13   first aid training, all of shipyard competent person at
14   the shipyard is first aid trained through the Red Cross.
15   They come on site and do it twice a year depending on the
16   number of people we have that need certificates.  If it's
17   on-site, we probably have at least 12 people there.
18             MS. WANGDAHL:  I'm sorry, I know you said this
19   in the beginning, how many employees do you have?
20             MR. WEBSTER:  We average 85.  We've got two
21   shifts that go between 45 and 50 and 125.
22             MS. WANGDAHL:  Mr. Townsend, have you made any
23   provisions for first aid?
24             MR. TOWNSEND:  At least half of our staff are
25   trained in first aid CPR.
0213
 1             MS. WANGDAHL:  That's quite a bit considering
 2   there's five employees?
 3             MR. TOWNSEND:  Well, there's nine altogether,
 4   but we have some part-time help in our store, so they're
 5   not in the field.
 6             MS. WANGDAHL:  And I believe you said you have
 7   a fire department fairly close?
 8             MR. TOWNSEND:  They were at the site within
 9   three minutes.  A person with a cell phone on the dock
10   called immediately.  Matter of fact, we called twice.
11   The people in the store heard someone yelling, and they
12   called and someone else called.
13             MS. WANGDAHL:  How is he today?
14             MR. TOWNSEND:  He's fine.  He's pretty well
15   stitched up.  But the dead switch, he didn't let go of
16   it.  It had a hold of him.  That was the problem.  I can
17   see the problem with the switches.  He didn't want to let
18   go of it.  It went towards his neck.  He's got a nice
19   little slice on his neck from a grinder.
20             MS. WANGDAHL:  And that's the only serious
21   accident that you've had?
22             MR. TOWNSEND:  We've had some soft tissue
23   accidents.
24             MS. WANGDAHL:  This question is for everybody.
25   Do you issue flashlights or any sort of portable
0214
 1   handheld?  Mr. Webster, you were referring to the light
 2   on the hard hat that Mr. Killingsworth brought in.  What
 3   are all of you doing currently?
 4             MR. TOWNSEND:  We have disposable flashlights
 5   available everywhere, but we also have halogen
 6   flashlights available in the metal shop and in the shed
 7   that they have.
 8             MS. WANGDAHL:  Do you require employees to
 9   carry them with them at all times or just as needed?
10             MR. TOWNSEND:  No, we don't.  They're
11   available.
12             MS. WANGDAHL:  Okay.
13             MR. WEBSTER:  We have flashlights that are
14   available.  The only ones we require to carry are the
15   electricians that go in and pre light the areas, put the
16   temporary lighting in.  They wouldn't have any backup,
17   but they are required.
18        Again, I think it was brought up earlier when those
19   go out, if it's a circuit breaker or something that gets
20   flipped, within a matter of minutes the lights are back
21   on.
22        But they available throughout our facility.  We've
23   got hundreds of flashlights.
24             MS. WANGDAHL:  Mr. Tinker?
25             MR. TINKER:  Definitely we have hundreds of
0215
 1   flashlights available throughout the facility.  The only
 2   requirements that I know of are inside the job boxes that
 3   are typically put on each vessel prior to work starting
 4   there.
 5        But I don't believe that -- but I can find out for
 6   sure -- but I don't believe each employee is required to
 7   carry one at all times.
 8             MS. WANGDAHL:  Mr. Dixon?
 9             MR. DIXON:  All of our electricians and
10   machinists generally carry them and they are available in
11   our store.  They don't have to buy them.  Any employee
12   can have one at any time for any use.
13             MS. WANGDAHL:  Are the electricians required or
14   is --
15             MR. DIXON:  No.
16             MS. WANGDAHL:  -- it just typical?
17             MR. DIXON:  It's just typical that they have
18   them, yes.
19             MS. WANGDAHL:  Okay.
20             MR. DIXON:  I'll tell you about a
21   darkness-related accident that might be interesting.  We
22   were dry docking a boat and the dry dock crew was on the
23   bow of the vessel, and it was a small passenger vessel,
24   maybe 150 feet with all cabins.
25        In order to get to the aft end of the boat, you had
0216
 1   to walk -- well, you didn't have to, but in this case our
 2   guy elected to walk from the bow to the stern to handle
 3   the line.  And this vessel had just come in by the
 4   owner's crew.
 5        And unbeknownst to us, they had left a manhole open.
 6   And our guy went interior and, of course, it's a dead
 7   ship because it's going into dry dock.  It got towed in
 8   or whatever, so the drop-off crew dropped it off.  And he
 9   walked internally in a dark area where the crew had left
10   a manhole open and fell into that manhole.  He didn't get
11   hurt too bad, it was a small ship.
12        But still, that's a case where had he had a
13   flashlight to go from the bow to the stern and he was
14   required to carry one, then he may have seen that open
15   hatch that was left by the crew.
16        We get into circumstances, you know, lots of times,
17   and, you know, you talk about these lights, like the guys
18   are the ones who break the chemical ones for if you are
19   in a confined space that you have something special, and
20   we're going to look into those and just then these little
21   portable things for our guys that do occasionally but not
22   normally want to carry the bulk of having a regular
23   flashlight around.
24        It's not a big cost, and I don't have in mind
25   looking at that sort of thing.  We respect you for a lot
0217
 1   of the things that you bring up that really can, we can
 2   see, have a value to them.
 3             MS. WANGDAHL:  Thank you.
 4        Mr. Dixon, you had answered this line of questioning
 5   in DC.  I would like to ask the remaining three.  What
 6   sort of lockout/tagout programs do you have in your
 7   facilities, if any?
 8             MR. TOWNSEND:  We have locks and tags on all of
 9   our electrical.
10             MS. WANGDAHL:  Who is responsible for making
11   sure equipment is locked out?
12             MR. TOWNSEND:  Everybody.
13             MS. WANGDAHL:  Okay.
14             MR. WEBSTER:  In our electrical department
15   we've got locks and tags also.  That is the
16   responsibility of the foreman of that shop from the
17   electrical standpoint.
18        The other two crafts that we're primarily concerned
19   about are the pipefitters and machinists, and they're
20   handling hydraulic lines and other lines that might be
21   charged to make sure that the pressure has been relieved
22   or the lines have been blanked off so something can't be
23   turned on and product goes through those lines.  They are
24   just tagged off.
25             MS. WANGDAHL:  When you use tags, are you using
0218
 1   an additional measure; is there something else you do
 2   besides just tagging?
 3             MR. WEBSTER:  We tag, put banks in, and there's
 4   other ways to do it.  Our typical experience is with
 5   sewage lines.  There always seems to be one flush left in
 6   some toilet, so you try to use blanks.
 7             MS. WANGDAHL:  Mr. Tinker?
 8             MR. TINKER:  Concerning lockout/tagout, I know
 9   I'm not very familiar with our lockout/tagout.  I could
10   forward you our policy on that.  I know that we have a
11   whole wall of tags and locks used by machinists when
12   they're working on it.  But I'm not really familiar with
13   it.
14             MS. WANGDAHL:  Thank you.
15        Mr. Townsend, I think you're the smallest employer
16   that we have had throughout this whole process, so I do
17   appreciate you coming.  When you reviewed the proposed
18   rule, I'm sure there were a few things that jumped out at
19   you that you thought, no way.  Do you seem to remember
20   any of those?
21             MR. TOWNSEND:  The basket seems unrealistic in
22   my situation.
23             MS. WANGDAHL:  Is that because you are relying
24   on off site?
25             MR. TOWNSEND:  We have backboards that we have
0219
 1   used over and over, the cranes that pull out the baskets.
 2   And I think we had the fellow at the hospital before the
 3   crane got set up.  We generally work on two or three
 4   projects at a time.  You don't find two people working on
 5   one job very often.  They're in the same compartment.
 6   That's about the only.
 7             MS. WANGDAHL:  That was the one biggie?
 8             MR. TOWNSEND:  The AED, that just seems
 9   unrealistic.  I think it's a great idea and it's
10   wonderful to have the training.  If they were a thousand
11   dollars, I'd have one.
12             MS. WANGDAHL:  Just because you just mentioned
13   it, do you frequently have employees that are working
14   alone?
15             MR. TOWNSEND:  Yes.
16             MS. WANGDAHL:  What kind of spaces are they
17   working in?
18             MR. TOWNSEND:  Oh, like an engine room, usually
19   there's one man in it and one man outside on most of
20   those type of projects.
21             MS. WANGDAHL:  Is communication maintained
22   throughout the job?
23             MR. TOWNSEND:  We have radios and everybody has
24   cell phones.  We use both.
25             MS. WANGDAHL:  Thank you very much.
0220
 1             MS. SHORTALL:  Mr. Daddura has questions next.
 2             MR. DADDURA:  You mentioned job box.  What is a
 3   job box?
 4             MR. TINKER:  Like a steel box approximately
 5   half the size of this table, about this tall, that holds
 6   tools necessary for working on the vessel.
 7             MR. DADDURA:  So there's a gang box you send
 8   down to the work site to the vessel; is that what it is?
 9             MR. TINKER:  That's what a gang box is, yes.
10             MR. DADDURA:  Okay, just wondering.
11        Disposable flashlight; what is that?
12             MR. TOWNSEND:  Did I say it?
13             MR. DADDURA:  Yes.
14             MR. TOWNSEND:  I think I did.  That's what they
15   are.  You can't change the battery, so they're
16   throw-aways once they go dead.
17             MR. DADDURA:  So they're a light stick.
18        You wanted a definition of shipyard.  Why do you
19   think you need a definition of shipyard?
20             MR. TOWNSEND:  Well, I believe there are haul
21   out facilities that are not OSHA standards, they don't
22   use OSHA standards, they're uninspected.  I'm saying like
23   a brownell trailer.  If you have a brownell trailer in
24   the parking lot away from the water, you're not under the
25   shipyard standards, yet you're my competition.
0221
 1             MR. DADDURA:  I'm not sure I understand that.
 2   You're saying there is pickup truck companies picking up
 3   from --
 4             MR. TOWNSEND:  No.  He backs down the ramp and
 5   he picks up a boat that I would haul last year, but he's
 6   got no facility; he's just a parking lot with boats in
 7   it.  Is he a shipyard?
 8             MR. DADDURA:  Well, we don't go by definition
 9   of shipyard.  We go by the definition of shipyard
10   employment.  He's doing your type of work, he's your
11   competitor, he's definitely falling under the same
12   standards.  That is defined in the regulations.
13             MR. TOWNSEND:  Okay.
14             MR. DADDURA:  I'm curious from all four of you
15   if you would give me your definition, if it's different,
16   of a work site versus a work location.  In your own
17   words, what do you think it means?
18             MR. TINKER:  I can start.  I would consider the
19   work site and work location -- basically I would like to
20   consider RER a work location along with a work site.
21             MR. DADDURA:  A work site would be what?
22             MR. TINKER:  I would like to say they're the
23   same.
24             MR. DADDURA:  It would be the same?
25             MR. TINKER:  The same, yeah.
0222
 1             MR. DADDURA:  Mr. Dixon?
 2             MR. DIXON:  I think they're synonymous.  I
 3   would have to read it.  Do they show up in the
 4   regulation?
 5             MR. DADDURA:  I just want your interpretation
 6   of what you think the --
 7             MR. DIXON:  Work site and work location to me
 8   it means the same thing.
 9        Do you want me to help out on the shipyard versus
10   boat yard?
11             MR. DADDURA:  No, not shipyard versus boat
12   yard; it's shipyard versus non-shipyard.
13             MR. TOWNSEND:  That's what we want.
14             MR. DADDURA:  Mr. Webster?
15             MR. WEBSTER:  Well, the shipyard would be --
16             MR. DADDURA:  No, the work location and work
17   site.
18             MR. WEBSTER:  I would say that the workplace is
19   where the actual work activity stage is taking place,
20   within a reasonable radius right around that spot.  If
21   you've got a 400-foot vessel and you only have activity
22   in one hole and a tank down in one end, so you've got an
23   awful lot of access there.  You've got a lot of walking
24   before you even get to where the actual work activity is.
25             MR. DADDURA:  The work location then would be
0223
 1   what?
 2             MR. WEBSTER:  The work site would be where the
 3   actual physical work is taking place.
 4             MR. DADDURA:  Right.
 5             MR. WEBSTER:  And the work location would be
 6   barge 450-16 or some identifiable geographical spot.
 7             MR. DADDURA:  Okay.
 8             MR. TOWNSEND:  I think the work location could
 9   be as big as my shipyards, all of my property, and the
10   work site may be in the stern of the boat.
11             MR. DADDURA:  Thank you.  That's all I have.
12             MS. SHORTALL:  Mr. Bolon has questions next.
13             MR. BOLON:  Mr. Townsend, could you describe
14   your shipyard.  Is it a dock; do you have shops?
15             MR. TOWNSEND:  Sorry.  After everybody else
16   described theirs, I thought about that.  I have a split
17   railway.  It's 400 feet, two carriage railway, end to
18   end, two separate docks, floating metal shop and a
19   floating boathouse that I can put a 58-footer inside and
20   about a 4000 square foot store and inventory.
21             MR. BOLON:  The proposed standard on
22   lockout/tagout, it's a comprehensive program that
23   requires that you have to have a written program as well
24   as do training and other things.  So I would ask each of
25   you, in your lockout/tagout, although you may have some
0224
 1   of those components, do you have a written program; do
 2   you have that kind of comprehensive --
 3             MR. TOWNSEND:  Yes, we do.  I actually hired,
 4   on the recommendation of an OSHA inspector, I hired a
 5   safety officer, and she's been working on MSDS work all
 6   year, and we have a lockout/tag out program.
 7             MR. WEBSTER:  We have a written one also.
 8             MR. TINKER:  Yes, we have a written one also.
 9             MR. DIXON:  We have a written one also.  We
10   have a board in the tool room with locks and tags and
11   that sort of business and try to keep a log.
12             MR. BOLON:  That's very much.
13             MS. SHORTALL:  Ms. Brinkerhoff has questions
14   next.
15             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  I'm wondering if each of you
16   can tell me what are your most common types of accidents
17   at the shipyard.
18             MR. TOWNSEND:  I would say objects in the eyes.
19   Dust would probably be the most common.  Like I say,
20   lately it's been soft tissues, sprains and pulled muscles
21   and that sort of thing.
22             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Sprains from tripping?
23             MR. TOWNSEND:  Tripping or falling.
24             MR. WEBSTER:  Probably our most prevalent one
25   would be debris in the eye.  We use a lot of positive
0225
 1   ventilation because they're working with chemicals, so
 2   they've got positive ventilation.  So as the guys are
 3   coming out of that, it gets blown off their clothes.
 4   They're actually working, but the actual activity of
 5   leaving a space with the velocity of the air going over
 6   them, it blows up into their eyes and you get a lot of
 7   grit.
 8        And the other one would be sprains.  Part of that is
 9   just the repair nature of the business.  The other is the
10   age of our workforce.  We're getting a lot more sprains a
11   lot more easier than we used to.
12             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  We heard that from people who
13   have testified.
14             MR. TINKER:  As I said earlier, yeah, we've had
15   a lot of foreign particles in the eyes in the last year,
16   and a lot of this is due to a large majority of grinding
17   and welding operations around one vessel, and when you
18   push to get it out in a certain time.
19        In a sense, I would say that's all our injuries
20   other than maybe a sprain or a pulled muscle.  Once that
21   boat was done, then our next one we had gone to double
22   eye protection, and we had no foreign particles.
23             MR. DIXON:  We have a lot of eye losses.  We do
24   a lot of lost control or shipyard analysis of these
25   things, so we went and spent a lot of effort in getting a
0226
 1   protective Rayban style that kept the dust out.  So we've
 2   really brought that down.
 3        So we are in the sprain and stress type thing from
 4   the aging workforce.  We're into the hearing loss that
 5   gets filed right at retirement so they can have continued
 6   care through their -- they get a free --
 7             MR. TINKER:  RV.
 8             MR. DIXON:  Yeah, they get an RV and then they
 9   get hearing aids for life, just because they've been
10   around noisy things.  But at retirement time, 60-year-old
11   people often lose their hearing.
12        We get some stress and strains and the phony strains
13   and we get the fraudulent claims and that sort of
14   business.  We've lost hundreds and hundreds of thousands
15   of dollars on fraud, people using the system to bilk us.
16             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  I think somebody earlier
17   mentioned they counted up the number of times we used the
18   word adequate in the proposed rule.  I'm wondering if you
19   have an opinion.  Would you rather us be more specific
20   about what we mean or do you prefer if we're going to
21   publish a rule that it be performance based, it would be
22   kind of non-specifc, non-descriptive?
23             MR. TOWNSEND:  I think as long as the inspector
24   was using the same definition would be adequate.  That's
25   been my complaint.  What's serious and what's not
0227
 1   serious.  One year it's serious and the next year
 2   nothing.  That sort of thing, the inconsistency.
 3             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Okay.
 4             MR. WEBSTER:  I think I was the one making the
 5   point, and I didn't count the number of times it was used
 6   as Phil had done in your report, but I know it was used
 7   quite often.  And if we all had to describe something in
 8   here, we'd probably have 15 different definitions of what
 9   each of us thought something was adequate.
10        If you could give us some examples, it would be
11   helpful.  It certainly would help reduce the number of
12   Monday morning quarterback fines when OSHA comes in and
13   decides, well, it happened, so I guess it wasn't adequate
14   enough.
15        It's the same thing that someone had mentioned
16   earlier today about frequently checking things.  It's
17   always frequently enough until something happens, and
18   then it's not frequently enough.
19        Maybe some examples of what you consider adequate
20   would give us guidance and also give your inspectors
21   guidance.
22             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Thank you.  Mr. Tinker?
23             MR. TINKER:  I'm very happy with what I've
24   heard from more experience than me that these gentlemen
25   have shared.
0228
 1             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Mr. Dixon?
 2             MR. DIXON:  I do like the word adequate.  It
 3   gives us a leeway of making some determination of what we
 4   feel is right for our particular situation.  Maybe it
 5   needs to be more expanded to other things, but then we
 6   have the conundrum of what the inspector feels or if
 7   there is an accident.  So if there is some way that you
 8   your legalese can come up with something that would
 9   satisfy both, that would be great.
10             MS. BRINKERHOFF:  Thank you.
11             MS. SHORTALL:  I have a few questions then.
12   First for Mr. Townsend.  Well, first I want to thank you
13   for coming all the way down from Alaska, such a small
14   ship or boat yard, whatever you need to call yourself.
15        I would maybe for clarifying as Mr. Daddura was
16   saying, we define for purposes of whether you're covered
17   under 1915, we define it by the type of employment you're
18   doing; are you doing ship repair, shipbuilding, ship
19   breaking and related activities.  So that's how you end
20   up coming in by doing ship repair or -- we haven't
21   defined how small it has to be.  It's more looking at the
22   concept of repairing a vessel.  And we do define vessel,
23   by the way.
24             MR. TOWNSEND:  Same thing.  Amy said, shipyard
25   standards, and I said, are you sure they're for me,
0229
 1   because we do small vessels.  Ninety percent of our
 2   vessels are 58-foot zingers.
 3             MS. SHORTALL:  We have some actually larger
 4   ones who are doing smaller vessels like you and have many
 5   more employees than you.  So it's a hard issue.
 6        I'd like to go to the issue of you wished that we
 7   could give you a better definition of isolated to give
 8   you more guidance or to be a little bit more specific.
 9   If in the final rule we ended up saying you had to check
10   on a person frequently and check on them at the end of a
11   work shift, if they are working by themselves out of the
12   visual or audio contact of another person, would that
13   help?
14             MR. TOWNSEND:  That means you could talk to
15   them on the radio?
16             MS. SHORTALL:  Right.
17             MR. TOWNSEND:  And say, hey, it's break time.
18   And if he doesn't come out, then you could go check on
19   him.
20             MS. SHORTALL:  Yes.  Would that help you
21   somewhat?
22             MR. TOWNSEND:  That would help.
23             MS. SHORTALL:  I guess the other way, even if
24   you didn't have radios, let's say all of your radios went
25   down or you are in the process of getting something new
0230
 1   and you have a person who is working by themselves and
 2   they're out of range of sight and they're out of the
 3   range of if they were hurt they can't even shout for
 4   help, because nobody is close to hear them, would that
 5   end up taking care of some of the problems you are having
 6   with the definition?
 7             MR. TOWNSEND:  My whole shipyard is isolated.
 8             MS. SHORTALL:  Pardon?
 9             MR. TOWNSEND:  Every job we do would be
10   isolated.  That was my fear was that it was like a
11   blanketed -- because my employees 90 percent of the time
12   work alone.
13             MS. SHORTALL:  Work alone.  How physically,
14   what are the dimensions of your --
15             MR. TOWNSEND:  I have approximately an acre and
16   a quarter.  Sometimes we have three jobs in the water.
17   There's one on each pier.  That means it's two men on the
18   railway and the other three are scattered throughout the
19   yard.
20             MS. SHORTALL:  Is that one of the reasons why
21   you've instituted using radios is because everybody seems
22   to be in a different spot in your yard?
23             MR. TOWNSEND:  We're trying to do a lot with a
24   smaller number of people, so if you need help, you ring
25   instead of hiring another guy.
0231
 1             MS. SHORTALL:  When you're doing servicing of
 2   equipment, do you ever have more than one employee
 3   servicing the same piece of equipment or system at the
 4   same time?
 5             MR. TOWNSEND:  It's possible.
 6             MS. SHORTALL:  And when you do have that, do
 7   both people put a lock or a cap on it?
 8             MR. TOWNSEND:  No, one person is responsible.
 9   Their name goes on the tag.
10             MS. SHORTALL:  I see.  And what if that person
11   left the facility and another person comes by.  Do you
12   ever have the danger of that person thinking, oh, I guess
13   I can remove this tag now, not realizing that there is
14   another person working?
15             MR. TOWNSEND:  No.  I've had fellows come to me
16   and say, can I take this tag off, and I said no, there's
17   nothing on the other end of the cord.  You may want to
18   use that piece of equipment, just send it out.  So if he
19   would have turned it on, it would have been a live wire
20   somewhere.
21             MS. SHORTALL:  Mr. Tinker, on your, if we could
22   go back to the slide that you had that had where your
23   first aid is located, you were questioning where the
24   placement is, would that constitute either adequate or
25   readily accessible.
0232
 1        Would you feel better if, for example, we in a final
 2   rule said that first aid supplies and first aid providers
 3   must be located within three to four minutes of response
 4   time to the injured person; would that end up taking care
 5   of some of your concerns about whether you placed the
 6   items in a central enough location?
 7             MR. TINKER:  I believe it would.
 8             MS. SHORTALL:  What about you, Mr. Dixon, if we
 9   changed from using the term adequate and using the term
10   readily accessible so using a term like your first aid
11   supplies and providers must be within three to four
12   minutes of where the injured person is located.
13             MR. DIXON:  We would like to see the way it is,
14   I believe informally, enforced right now, which is if
15   you're doing work in the city of Seattle, that it's
16   assumed that the city of Seattle when you dial 911,
17   whether it's three minutes or seven minutes, they are the
18   primary one that's going to respond and you are therefore
19   covered.
20        Now, we at the shipyard have 15 first aid trained
21   guys, AED's, and we're a small enough yard that we meet
22   the current rules either way.
23        But I'm a little concerned for all of the boats at
24   Fisherman's Terminal or on some dock, you know, wherever
25   they are within a city where an engine vendor goes down
0233
 1   to, you know, turn the valve cover lining down there.  He
 2   thinks that they're all fine because -- everybody thinks
 3   they're fine because they're within Seattle and something
 4   happens to them on that boat, somebody is going to call
 5   911 and they're going to come and take care of it.
 6        I can't say that that's three or four minutes.  The
 7   fire department won't guarantee it.  They'll say under
 8   normal circumstances, yes, we're probably going to be
 9   there in five minutes.
10        Of course, we all know the AED's are not very
11   effective after five minutes or so, but sometimes they
12   help, and you need to get the people on the AED, if you
13   really want to be real about this, in the first one or
14   two or three minutes to have a good, more than 40 percent
15   chance of saving the guy's life, and there's all sorts of
16   curves and things that you can look at.
17        I don't know how to answer your question.  In the
18   real world, right now, depending on how you interpret
19   your regulations, there's probably over 50 percent of the
20   people working in ship repairing activities that are not
21   compliant with your regulations.
22             MS. SHORTALL:  Given that you haven't been able
23   to get a guarantee from the Seattle emergency services
24   that they can get there within that golden window of
25   opportunity every time, what do you think is the
0234
 1   appropriate response of employers?
 2             MR. DIXON:  I think the appropriate response is
 3   if there is an established 911 medical response
 4   organization within your work area, then that should be
 5   it.
 6             MS. SHORTALL:  What do you mean work area?
 7             MR. DIXON:  For example, and this is a great
 8   example, this happened today.  We're restoring a
 9   100-year-old Viking ship that's in the Nordic Heritage
10   museum, and I had to send my machinist up before we take
11   it down to the yard to change the wheel bearings in order
12   to tow it down there.  I only sent one guy there.  I sent
13   him just there by himself.
14        I asked the guy at the museum to check on him every
15   20 minutes to make sure when he's pulling those tires off
16   there to redo the wheel bearings and send him to get new
17   tires, that everything is okay and there is no problems.
18   And the guy had a cell phone and all that sort of thing.
19        But certainly he wasn't within the three or five
20   minutes of my first aid kit, which happens to be down at
21   the shipyards, and he wasn't within that of my AED.  So
22   here he is in the parking lot of a museum doing this
23   work, and if he got hurt, then it might not have been
24   discovered for 10 or 15 minutes depending on how often
25   this guy was checking on him.
0235
 1        That guy would have called 911, and 911 would have
 2   been there within say six minutes, depending on traffic
 3   and other situations.
 4        So did I violate OSHA today?  I don't know.
 5             MS. SHORTALL:  What about you, Mr. Webster,
 6   would it help if we had a certain time limit that we put
 7   on instead of saying adequate or readily accessible?
 8             MR. WEBSTER:  I've got several questions here.
 9   One is you had mentioned medical supplies versus aid?
10             MS. SHORTALL:  I'm saying both.
11             MR. WEBSTER:  Those are two different animals.
12             MS. SHORTALL:  I'm saying would it help if for
13   both medical supplies, meaning first aid kits, and for
14   first aid providers or outside services that you might
15   bring in, instead of saying they had to be readily
16   accessible, if we said they have to be no more than three
17   or four minute distance, response time distance between
18   where they're located and where the injured worker is.
19             MR. WEBSTER:  I think that's a very supporting
20   proposition.  We've got areas that we work on that you
21   could take 10 minutes just to get to them.  You've got a
22   string of popcorn almost to follow the guy in.  Every
23   three minutes you'd have to drop off a first aid kit so
24   he could get to it.
25        If you're in the bottom of a 400-foot barge going
0236
 1   across 18-inch beams every six feet, that's not
 2   practical.  Or if you are in a draft alley on one of the
 3   Washington state ferries, that takes you 10 minutes to
 4   get in the engine room.  There's different compartments
 5   there.  Three to four minutes just isn't --
 6             MS. SOHRTALL:  Let's look at the ship that you
 7   talked about that would take you a long time to get to
 8   the bottom of it.  Do you keep first aid kits on larger
 9   vessels that you're servicing?
10             MR. WEBSTER:  On the very large ones, we will
11   have a job box again.  They are in there.  But that stuff
12   is on the main deck.  By the time you are going to crawl
13   down a ladder and go maybe 50 feet across the bottom of
14   the vessel, you're certainly outside of the three- to
15   four-minute range.
16             MS. SHORTALL:  You also said, as I recall, you
17   have your supervisors trained in first aid; am I correct?
18             MR. WEBSTER:  Yes.
19             MS. SHORTALL:  What about line of production
20   employees?
21             MR. WEBSTER:  We have some of our lead men
22   trained in some of our larger crafts, which is primarily
23   boilermakers is our largest craft.  Some of those are
24   trained.  Our competent persons are trained, also some of
25   our foremen.
0237
 1             MS. SHORTALL:  If there is someone down at the
 2   bottom deck or level of a vessel who gets injured, is it
 3   more than likely that person is working alone or will
 4   there usually be either a lead person or supervisor or
 5   someone else in the general vicinity who might have first
 6   aid training?
 7             MR. WEBSTER:  There would be people in the
 8   general vicinity who would have first aid training.
 9             MS. SHORTALL:  Is that one of the reasons you
10   end up training --
11             MR. WEBSTER:  Yes.
12             MS. SHORTALL:  -- additional?
13             MR. WEBSTER:  Yes.
14             MS. SHORTALL:  So in essence, at least the
15   first aid provider very likely could be within three
16   minutes because of the --
17             MR. WEBSTER:  It's a possibility, but it's also
18   a very sporty possibility based on just the actual job
19   site problems.
20             MS. SHORTALL:  What about you, Mr. --
21             MR. WEBSTER:  It would be the same thing if
22   you're on the 30th floor here and you had to have access
23   to the lobby in three minutes but the elevators are out
24   and you've got to take the stairwell.  It would be a lot
25   different time frame than just dropping down on the
0238
 1   elevators.
 2             MS. SHORTALL:  Certainly.  What about you, Mr.
 3   Townsend, would it help if we said something like three
 4   to four minutes, would that give you the type of
 5   certainty or guideline you're looking for?
 6             MR. TOWNSEND:  If you consider that the aid car
 7   is coming and your injured man is already there and
 8   they're going to meet at some point, that works.  That's
 9   exactly what happened.  We stopped the bleeding before
10   the car got there.  By the time we got him on deck, the
11   aid car was there.
12             MS. SHORTALL:  Thank you very much.  Once
13   again, I just want to thank all of you for coming here
14   today and participating in our hearing, and we really
15   look forward to your post-hearing comments.  And I know a
16   number of you were sitting here either today, and in the
17   case of Mr. Tinker, I know I saw you yesterday as well.
18        I am hoping that you will take the opportunity if
19   there was anything that you heard that we asked or talked
20   about with another panel that you would also like to
21   comment on in your post-hearing comments, please feel
22   free to do so.  Our whole purpose in this hearing is to
23   gather as much information as possible to give us the
24   most complete record that we can get, and we appreciate
25   your help with that.
0239
 1        Thank you again.
 2             MR. WEBSTER:  Thanks for the opportunity.
 3             MS. SHORTALL:  We're done, Your Honor, with our
 4   witnesses at this point.
 5             JUDGE GEE:  Did you want to address the
 6   post-hearing comments?
 7             MS. SHORTALL:  Yes, I would at this point, Your
 8   Honor.
 9        As mentioned in the Notice of Proposed Hearing, that
10   in our pre-hearing order and in the post-hearing order,
11   Judge Steven Purcell, who presided in the Washington DC
12   hearing on September 9 established a post-hearing comment
13   period.
14        Customarily, this is divided into two parts.  The
15   first part is a period of time for submitting additional
16   information and data relevant to the rulemaking,
17   including information data that during this hearing we
18   may have asked you to submit.
19        For example, in the case of Mr. Dixon, we asked if
20   he could provide a list of recordable injuries, and he's
21   going through with that.  So it's time to get that data
22   and information in.
23        The second part of the submission or the second part
24   of the post-hearing comment is for submission of final
25   written comments, arguments, summations, briefs, any
0240
 1   closing thoughts that you would like to give the agency
 2   as we begin the deliberations and moving to a final rule.
 3        In most special rulemaking, the post-hearing comment
 4   is a total of 60 days long, 30 days for the first part
 5   and 30 days for the second.  But because of special time
 6   constraints for a number of the interested parties in
 7   this rulemaking, Judge Purcell granted our motion to
 8   allow 61 days after the close of the hearing in Seattle,
 9   Washington until December 22, 2008 since the 60th day
10   falls on a Sunday for the first part of the post-hearing
11   comment period for interested parties to get additional
12   information and data, and Judge Purcell also granted our
13   motion to allow an additional 60 days until February 20,
14   2009 for the second post-hearing comment period for
15   interested parties to submit final written comments and
16   briefs.
17        The post-hearing order that Judge Purcell has signed
18   is already in the docket of this rulemaking and it is
19   available for anyone to view on www.regulations.gov, and
20   it is the following Exhibit No. OSHA-S049-2006-0675-0169.
21        So if you have any further questions, you can
22   consult the post-hearing order.
23        So in essence, what we are doing and what Judge
24   Purcell granted was for us to double the amount of time
25   that we currently allow for the post-hearing comment
0241
 1   period to allow for interested parties here to have
 2   adequate time to participate in that.
 3             JUDGE GEE:  Thank you.  So pursuant to the
 4   provisions of 29 CFR Part 1911, as provided in the Notice
 5   of Proposed Rulemaking, the pre-hearing guidelines signed
 6   by Judge Purcell and the post-hearing order issued Judge
 7   Purcell, the record will reopen at the close of today's
 8   hearing and will remain open until December 22, 2008 for
 9   the submission of additional information and data.
10        The record will then close on the receipt of the
11   information and data, but will remain open until February
12   20, 2009 for the submission of final written comments,
13   arguments, summations and briefs.
14             MS. SHORTALL:  Your Honor, may I add for the
15   record that in the folder all the participants received,
16   there should be a copy of that post-hearing order.  If it
17   doesn't make it all the way back up to Alaska with you,
18   Mr. Townsend, you can always go back on
19   www.regulations.gov.  If you didn't by any chance have
20   one of those, we should still have some copies at the
21   table outside of here, right outside the entrance here.
22        I want to add one thing about the folders that you
23   received.  They were prepared by Ms. Wangdahl and Ms.
24   Watson, which is something we've never done before,
25   hearing participants before.  They felt very strongly
0242
 1   since the majority of you who participated in the hearing
 2   were new to the process, they wanted to make sure
 3   everything was collected and everything you would need,
 4   you wouldn't miss getting.  So special compliments to
 5   them, and I hope you appreciate their consideration in
 6   making you feel like you've got everything you need to be
 7   active participants in this hearing.  Thank you.
 8             JUDGE GEE:  Thank you.
 9        Let the record show that all persons and
10   organizations who reported their notice of intention to
11   appear have been extended the opportunity to do so.
12        Let the record also show that in every instance
13   following the presentation of oral comments and testimony
14   that an opportunity has been extended for questioning of
15   the witnesses, first by the public hearing attendees and
16   then by members of the OSHA panel.
17        On behalf of the Department of Labor, I wish to
18   publicly thank all of the witnesses who gave of their
19   time and thought and expended their own funds to attend
20   and contribute to this hearing.
21        Further, I want the record to reflect the
22   Department's appreciation for the promptness, preparation
23   and attention exhibited by the OSHA panel.
24        To all participants, thank you for your interest in
25   this very important matter.
0243
 1        This public hearing on the proposed standard to
 2   update OSHA's Standards on General Working Conditions and
 3   Shipyard Employment is hereby adjourned.  Thank you very
 4   much.
 5             (Hearing adjourned at 4:37 p.m.)
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0244
 1                             CERTIFICATE
 2   STATE OF WASHINGTON        )
                                ) ss.
 3   COUNTY OF KING             )
 4             I, KIMBERLY MIFFLIN, Notary Public in and for the
 5        State of Washington, do hereby certify:
 6             That the annexed and foregoing Transcript of the
 7        Informal Public Hearing on OSHA's Proposed Rule on
 8        General Working Conditions in Shipyard Employment was
 9        taken by me stenographically and transcribed by me;
10             I further certify that said hearing, as above
11        transcribed, is a full, true and accurate transcript of
12        the informal public hearing.
13             IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and
14        affixed my official seal this 7th day of November, 2008.
15   
16                                  ______________________________
                                    KIMBERLY MIFFLIN
17                                  CSR NO. 2349
                                    NOTARY PUBLIC in and for the
18                                  State of Washington, residing
                                    in Kent.
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