Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 23:31:55 EST
Subject: Fwd: [FRCtech2002] Digest Number 3


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There are 22 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Are Game Pads Allowed
           From: "richerney" <richerney@yahoo.com>
      2. Team Update #1 Additional Hardware list corrections Timing Belts
           From: "gtbfirst" <ajing@hei.com>
      3. Keeping track of points
           From: "kmdykeman" <kmdykeman@hotmail.com>
      4. How many motors are allowed?
           From: "smegasurus" <bigjanus@aol.com>
      5. "Projectiles"
           From: "hilikusrx" <stthomp2@earthlink.net>
      6. Scotch fasteners
           From: "wizardqed" <dcherba@davenport.edu>
      7. Re: retroreflective tape
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      8. Re: Rules Questions #1
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      9. Re: Van Door Motors?
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     10. Re: rules Q's / comments
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     11. Re: retroreflective tape
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     12. Re: Tethered vs Illegal separation
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     13. Re: Rule Q's!
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     14. Re: Robot Components
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     15. Re: goal building
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     16. Re: Scenario - Rule Interpretation
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     17. Re: Two questions regarding goal handling
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     18. Re: Ball Return
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     19. Re: Question
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     20. Re: A few rule interpretation
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     21. Re: Rule GM14 Special Equipment or clothing for players
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     22. Re: Will a real time score board be visible as teams score points?
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>


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Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 22:47:04 -0000
   From: "richerney" <richerney@yahoo.com>
Subject: Are Game Pads Allowed

The additional Hardware list says that we can use Joysticks, Wheels, 
and Pedals.  Can we use PC compatible Gamepads also.




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Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 00:46:53 -0000
   From: "gtbfirst" <ajing@hei.com>
Subject: Team Update #1 Additional Hardware list corrections Timing Belts

The update states that Belts may be used, any size, any length for 
use with pulleys.    

Last year, we built a wheel using a timing belt as the outer surface 
for traction.  Does this mean we may not do that this year?




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Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 01:21:21 -0000
   From: "kmdykeman" <kmdykeman@hotmail.com>
Subject: Keeping track of points

Can someone OUTSIDE the alliance station keep track of the score and 
signal to the operators, coach/mentor?

--- In FRCtech2002@y..., "frcengineers" <frcengineers@y...> wrote:
> --- In FRCtech2002@y..., "mcj7247" <mcj7247@a...> wrote:
> > During each match, will a score be visible to each alliance team 
so 
> > they know how many points they have gathered at any given time 
> during 
> > the match? 
> > 
> > If not, is it allowable for the coach/mentor or any student 
players 
> > to keep track of team scores, while in the alliance station, 
using a 
> > handheld electronic device or laptop PC?
> 
> NO.  A score will not be visible for each alliance during the match.
> It is allowable for the coach/mentor or any student to keep track 
of 
> team scores, while in the alliance station, using a handheld 
> electronic device or laptop  - remember power will not be provived 
for 
> these devices.




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Message: 4
   Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 03:23:40 -0000
   From: "smegasurus" <bigjanus@aol.com>
Subject: How many motors are allowed?

If we wanted to use more of one kind of motor than is supplied in the 
kit, is that allowed.

My team cannot agree on an interpretaion of this rule, because the 
appendix states that only partd from the kit can be used, but we 
would be using motors from the kit, just more than supplied.

please send a copy of the reply to
bigjanus@aol.com




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Message: 5
   Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 04:01:22 -0000
   From: "hilikusrx" <stthomp2@earthlink.net>
Subject: "Projectiles"

Our team members have been pondering using a spring loaded system 
that would stay attached to our robot and extand a solid arm or pole 
into the robot "home zone" at the last second.  Would this be 
considered an infringment of the entanglement rule?  Thanks

Adam Thompson
Team 401
Va Tech




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Message: 6
   Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 22:55:58 -0000
   From: "wizardqed" <dcherba@davenport.edu>
Subject: Scotch fasteners

The rules specifically prohibit velcro on the wheels.  Other 
fasteners such as the scotch type do not have hooks and are not 
destructive to the carpet.  Would this material be allowed on the 
wheels. 

Dave 




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Message: 7
   Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 14:04:50 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: retroreflective tape

--- In FRCtech2002@y..., "zhhecht" <robotics@e...> wrote:
> Are we allowed to use the retroreflective tape in the kits on our 
> robots?
> 
> From,
>   Zan Hecht
>   Oakwood Robotics Team #992

A) NO. See team update #1 on the FIRST website for specifics.

MRT.




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Message: 8
   Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 19:54:57 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Rules Questions #1

> 1. Is there a dollar amount limit on Small Parts items?

A) No. 

> 2. The additional hardware list allows unlimited sprockets, gears 
and
> pulleys this year.  Does that mean we can use any types of gears, 
such
> as worm gears, helical gears, or bevel gears?

A)Yes. 

> 3. Rule M17, part 2 indicates that the Fisher-Price, Drill, and 
Globe
> motor gearboxes are not integral.  Can we use the parts inside these
> gearboxes (primarily the gears and pins) in other modules that we
> design?

A)Yes, but if you break it you will not be given a replacement.

> 4. Can we modify the gear boxes listed in M17?  For instance, can we
> make a new output shaft for the drill motor gb to allow us easier
> mounting?  Can we remove the anti-backlash pins in the drill motor? 
> Can we replace the shift lever on the drill motor gb with a better
> design?  Can we insert a metal ring into the drill motor gb to lock
> the "shiftable" gear into either the 400 rpm or the 1200 rpm 
position?

A) Yes to all of these.
 
> 5. Kit discrpancies versus the Bill of Materials:
>    a. We did not receive the revolving light.
>    b. We did not receive the Anderson Power Products catalogs or
> connectors.
>    c. We did receive some really cool black motors (x2) labelled
> "Atwood Mobile."  Are these legal to use?  Are the specifications
> available?  What is the spline on the output shaft or is that a 
gear?

A) Please refer to Team Update #1 on the FIRST website.
 
> 6. Can we design an "Obstructavision" (TM) module which allows us to
> block the vision of the opposing drivers, so that they cannot see 
the
> playing field?

A)No, it is not in the spirit of the competition.

----
FIRST MRT



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Message: 9
   Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 20:06:08 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Van Door Motors?


> Didn't find one in our boxes--did find two of those big black 
hummers
> (Atwood).  Is this a change to the parts list?  Where can we find 
more
> specifications on the new motors w/attached gearboxes? (EG no-load
> rpm, stall torque.)  (BTW, how come the spec sheet on the Globe 
motors
> is still wrong?--97 RPM for motor alone!!??)
 
A) This is a parts change. Please check Team Update #1 on the FIRST 
website.

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 10
   Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 20:28:24 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: rules Q's / comments

1.  Rule SC9 - Tie break #5 - What is meant by "opposite half of the 
> field"?  This term seems a little vague.  "Opposite side" from your 
> alliance station?  "Opposite side" from where balls typically count 
> for a particular alliance?  Does "opposite side" exclude zone 
> #3?  ...  Do balls that left the playing field count?  Do balls that 
> are in a human player station count?  Do balls inside a robot(s)' 
> container count, or only balls lying on the ground?  How does the 
> second white bullet of rule SC4 apply? - "The ball must not..."

A) The "opposite half of the playing field" is the half of the field 
that is furthest from your alliance station.  It refers to all balls 
in that half of the  field in a non-scoring position (ball in robots, 
on the carpet, etc..).  Balls in the alliance stations and balls that 
have left the field are not counted.
 
> 2. Rule SC10 - I think I asked this in a previous year, but want to 
> double check.  If both alliances are DQ'd, then both receive all 
> three of the following: 0 score, 0 QP, and a Loss.  Is this correct?

A) Yes.  

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 11
   Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 20:30:57 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: retroreflective tape


> Are we allowed to use the retroreflective tape in the kits on our 
> robots?

A) No. Please see Team Update #1.

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 12
   Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 20:42:19 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Tethered vs Illegal separation

> I was wondering if you could clarify the term used in the kickoff 
> of "tethered". What type/ size connection would constitute a 
tethered part or the robot to get credit for being in another zone?

A) FIRST will not try to define a size for a "tethered" device, nor 
will FIRST define a "tethered" device.  Remember that it does not 
matter if it is "tethered" or not, if any part of a robot is touching 
in zones 1 or 5 it counts, please refer to rule SC4.

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 13
   Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 20:33:37 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Rule Q's!


> In reference to rule GM13, "Any balls which leave the playing field 
> or alliance station, such as by rolling, bouncing, or being pushed 
> out of the boundaries, will not be returned to the playing field 
> until the next match", would a team be penalized if the robot 
> intentionally pushed balls outside of the field?

A) No.

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 14
   Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 20:47:44 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Robot Components

> 1a. If something is NOT on the additional hardware list, is it 
> automatically eliminated from the component possibilities?

Please read Rules K1, M9, and M18.

> 1b. I saw on the additional hardware list that materials such as 
plywood 
> may be used on the robot.  May we use some type of fabric (i.e. 
> canvas) on the robot as a functioning component?  

Canvas may not be substituted for plywood and does not appear in the 
kit or Additional Hardware List.  If canvas is available from Small 
Parts then it may be used on the robot.  Due to the special 
materials rules for bumpers, canvas is acceptable as a material in 
bumpers.

-----
ER





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Message: 15
   Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 20:51:49 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: goal building

> We cannot locate the spec's for the goals. Did find materials 
listing 
> on Web but no eng. drawings. Are they available somewhere?

Engineering prints for the goal were included with your manual in the 
kit of parts.  The prints are also available on the FIRST web site at 
http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/doc_updt.htm.  Please note that the 
goal print has been revised slightly and the up-to-date print is 
available on the FIRST web site.

-----
ER




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Message: 16
   Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 21:08:46 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Scenario - Rule Interpretation

> Is it allowed for a robot to release a tethered device prior to or 
at 
> the end of the two minute match?

A) Yes as long as the device does not present a risk of entanglement. 
 See Rules DQ3 and M16.

> Is this device allowed if it is: fired pnuematically; released and 
> propelled using stored energy in springs/tubing; released and 
> propelled using electrical energy from the battery?

A) Per Rule S6, the only projectiles that are allowed are balls. 
Rule M1 govens energy sources that may be used to power the robot.

-----
ER




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Message: 17
   Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 21:13:25 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Two questions regarding goal handling

> 1. Can the robot push against the goal on the wooden or plastic 
parts?  This would be deliberate reacting, rather than incidental 
pushing 
> while jockying around.  I.e. is a "push bot" allowed.

A) You can use a "push bot" to move the goal, however pushing against 
the plastic risks permanently deforming it and would be a violation of 
rule GM22.

> 2. a: Can part of the robot project under the goal as long as it is 
> not (deliberately) attaching or reacting against the lower platform 
> or casters?

A)  No, see rule GM20 bullet 3.

> 2. b: A similar question: can the robot pull the goal up onto itself 
(imagine a wedge and pulling one caster onto the edge of the wedge).

A) No, nothing from a robot should be projecting under the goal, see 
rule GM20 bullet 3.

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 18
   Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 20:53:11 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Ball Return


> We have a few questions regarding  Section 2.3 of the rules.
> 
> Section 2.3 States:
> 
> 2.3 Alliance Station
> The alliance stations are located outside the perimeter of the 
> playing field as shown in Figure 1.1. There
> are two openings in the alliance station wall for ball return. . . .
> 
> How big are these ball return openings and where are they located? 
> Can they be used during the game? Can a robot push balls into the 
> alliance station through these openings? Can a side view of these 
walls be obtained?

A)  There will not be openings in the alliance stations walls for ball 
return.  Section 2.3 of the Game section of the manual will be updated 
in a later Team Update.

---
FIRST MRT





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Message: 19
   Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 21:21:01 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Question

>With respect to Rules SC5 and DQ7, if a part is 'dropped', but is
>attatched to the bot with a string or something......Is that
>considered to have been dropped? Or is it still attatched (and thus
>DQ7 doesn't apply)?
> Basically are you allowed to drop something, which is still
> attatched to the robot (via a cord of some sort), and then have that 
>count as your robot being wherever the object has been dropped?

A) Devices which are attached, even by a small component such as a 
string, are considered part of robot.  Please consider Rules DQ3 and 
M16 when designing such a mechanism.

-----
ER





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Message: 20
   Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 21:23:33 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: A few rule interpretation

> We are wondering if our robot can expand during the final moments of 

the
> game to reach a part of itself from Zone 2 to Zone 4 or vice versa. 

 This is
> a reach somewhere between 9 and 20 feet.  

A) Robots are allowed to expand, see rule M5.

I would like to discuss the specifics outside the forum so as to not 
tip our hand.  We 

understand there are rules about entanglement and need some 
clarification there.

A) Sorry all questions and answers will be made publicly available, 
unless they are substantially similar.

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 21
   Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 21:27:43 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Rule GM14 Special Equipment or clothing for players


> Are soccer goalie gloves considered Special Equipment
> and are they disallowed to be worn during the match by
> maybe a human player???

A) They would not be allowed per rule GM14.

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 22
   Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 21:53:30 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Will a real time score board be visible as teams score points?


> During each match, will a score be visible to each alliance team so 
> they know how many points they have gathered at any given time 
during 
> the match? 
> 
> If not, is it allowable for the coach/mentor or any student players 
> to keep track of team scores, while in the alliance station, using a 
> handheld electronic device or laptop PC?


A) N0. A score will not be visible for each alliance during the match. 
It is allowable for the coach/mentor or any student to keep track of 
team scores, while in the alliance station, using a hand held 
electronic device or laptop - remember power will not be provided for 
these devices.

---
FIRST MRT




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