Segment 3 Of 4 Previous Hearing Segment(2) Next Hearing Segment(4)
SPEAKERS CONTENTS INSERTS
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Alice Walton of the Walton family?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And a representative of Systematics, do you know who that would have been?
Answer. I don't know who the representative was contemplated to be.
Question. And representative of Entergy?
Answer. I don't know who the representative was contemplated to be.
Question. Paul Berry?
Answer. Paul Berry was an officer with Union National Bank in Little Rock.
Question. Did he also do some fund-raising for Clinton/Gore or DNC?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. The memo goes on to say, ''All, except Paul Berry, appear to have some legitimate reason for being there.''
Do you know what Mr. Lindsey meant by that? Did you have any discussions with Mr. Lindsey about that?
Answer. I was asked to attend a couple meetings regarding the Arkansans possibly going to APEC where Mr. Lindsey, I believe, was president at least at one of the meetings. I don't know what he meant by that statement.
Question. How many meetings were there, the Arkansas delegation to APEC?
Answer. I believe I was asked to attend two.
Question. And could you tell us who was at those meetings?
Answer. I've already noted Mr. Lindsey. Ms. Hernreich, I believe, was present. Ms. Scott, I believe, was present. I believe Mr. Podesta may have attended one of the meetings. There may have been others. That's the best of my memory, sitting here today.
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Question. What was discussed at these meetings?
Answer. Whether or not it was a good idea for this Arkansas delegation to attend the APEC conference in Indonesia.
Question. And what were the concerns expressed?
Answer. As I remember it, whether there would be any appearance concerns, appearance matters raised. I don't believe other States were going to have any representations there.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And how was this resolved?
Answer. I don't know. I don't recall how it was ultimately resolved.
Question. Do you recall different people having different positions on that?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. And could you tell us what those were?
Answer. As I recall, while I had some reservation about influencing people in the private sector, on balance it was not a good idea for a group of Arkansans to go. I believe Mr. Lindsey was of the same opinion, as was Mr. Podesta. I believe Ms. Scott was for their going, and I don't recall Ms. Hernreich taking a position.
Question. Do you recall any discussion about Mr. Hubbell being involved with this group also?
Answer. I believe he was on the list. I don't recall any discussion about him.
Question. Was there any particular concern relating to Mr. Hubbell being with the delegation at this time?
Answer. I didn't raise any concern, and I don't—Mr. Podesta, upon reflection, may have raised a concern about Mr. Hubbell going.
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Question. And do you recall what he said?
Answer. I think it was more the appearance matter, which was in an overall sense as well.
Question. And what were his concerns?
Answer. I simply think that—what I remember was that this might raise an appearance issue that would be reported on by the press. That was basically one of the prime considerations.
Question. Now, in November of 1994, this was prior to Mr. Hubbell's guilty plea on December 6 of 1994, so I'm wondering what was the particular appearance problem that Mr. Podesta raised?
Answer. I don't recall any other discussion other than what I've just related to you, Ms. Comstock.
Question. Was there any type of concern that it would appear that the White House was trying to assist Mr. Hubbell in business activities?
Answer. I don't recall that being discussed at all.
Question. In the middle of the second paragraph here where it indicates Doug, who negotiated the revised list with James Riady, asked about his status.
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. Do you recall James Riady being somebody who was putting together this list?
Answer. As I remember it, I believe these people had been invited perhaps by Mr. Riady, or at least some of them had been; that's my recollection.
Question. And was he going to be paying their way to go?
Answer. Ms. Comstock, I don't know. I was not going, and I really did not give a lot of focused attention to this matter, other than to express my views when asked.
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Question. Was there some concern in the discussion that Mr. Riady was paying for all of these people to go?
Answer. I don't recall that Mr. Riady was going to pay the expenses. Perhaps that was mentioned. I just simply don't remember, sitting here today.
Question. Okay. And then it goes on in that same paragraph, it says, ''He,'' meaning Doug Buford, ''would clearly like to go, but will do whatever we want.''
Do you recall them telling you about talking to Doug Buford about this?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you recall discussing this memo in particular with Mr. Lindsey?
Answer. I don't believe I ever had a discussion with just Mr. Lindsey by himself. I might have, but I don't believe that I did.
Question. Or actually just on these issues in general, not just the memo, the issues of the Arkansas delegation going to Jakarta?
Answer. Mr. Lindsey, I believe, was in at least one of the meetings where this matter was discussed.
Question. And do you know what Mr. Lindsey meant when he wrote, ''He,'' meaning Doug Buford again, ''believes his presence will help to,'' quote, '''control' the group''?
Answer. No, I don't know.
Question. Was there any concerns expressed in the discussions that the group was going to be out of control?
Answer. I don't recall any discussions of that type.
Question. Okay. So looking back on this, you don't know what kind of control issues Mr. Lindsey was concerned about or about what this group might do that was going to be a problem?
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Answer. It's in quotation marks. I don't know what Mr. Lindsey meant by that.
Question. Are you aware of the President meeting with James Riady on this trip in November of 1994?
Answer. I may have been aware that Mr. Riady had requested the President meet with him on this trip.
Question. Okay. And directing your attention, the last paragraph does indicate that James Riady and his father would like to have the opportunity to visit briefly with President Clinton in the hotel during the visit. I'm wondering if you knew if that did, in fact, occur?
Answer. I don't know whether it did or not.
Question. And Mr. Lindsey concludes the memo by writing, quote, ''James has been reasonable in culling the list, and I think we should try to schedule a 15-minute meeting for them.''
Do you recall discussing that with Mr. Lindsey?
Answer. No, I do not. Again, Ms. Comstock, no, I do not remember that.
Question. In reading through the memo, I mean, it appears, particularly with this conclusion, ''I think we should try to schedule a meeting,'' and then, ''James has been reasonable in culling the list,'' Mr. Lindsey seemed to be proposing that this meetings do go forward.
Do you recall Mr. Lindsey proposing that these meetings do take—that they should take place?
Mr. TAYLOR. The meeting between the President and the Riadys?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Well, it also says, ''James has been reasonable in culling the list.'' It seems to suggest that this list may have—Mr. Lindsey may have thought it was reasonable.
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Mr. TAYLOR. With all due respect, that's argument and not question.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. No, but I'm just asking you in reviewing that if that helps you refresh your recollection on Mr. Lindsey's position on whether or not any of these meetings should go forward, whether the delegation should go, whether the President should meet with the Riadys.
Mr. BALLEN. Well, there are two separate questions.
Mr. TAYLOR. Three, by my count.
Mr. BALLEN. I think he has testified as to most of them.
The WITNESS. Ms. Comstock, I stand by my testimony. My best memory is that Mr. Lindsey suggested that the Arkansas group should not go. I don't recall any discussion with Mr. Lindsey about whether or not the President should meet with Mr. Riady and his father. I just simply don't recall that. That's two of the three. I don't remember what the third was.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I think that will do.
I'll make that Deposition Exhibit Number 26.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–26 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recall if you discussed this trip at all with Leon Panetta?
Answer. I don't remember raising it with Mr. Panetta. I may have, but I don't remember raising it with him.
Question. Do you recall generally what his position was or learning of his position on this trip?
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Answer. No, I do not.
Question. And it says ''Marsha'' on the bottom. Just to make clear, that's your handwriting on the bottom of the document?
Answer. It is.
Question. And does that read ''Leon'' first?
Answer. It does.
Question. And then what are the other names there?
Answer. John Angel, who worked on Mr. Panetta's staff; ''Marsha,'' I believe refers to Marsha Scott; and ''SR'' is Skip Rutherford.
Question. Okay. And do you know if you discussed this with Skip Rutherford?
Answer. I don't recall discussing it with Skip, but I may have.
Question. Do you recall his position on the delegation whether they should go or not?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you recall if anybody had approached him to sort of lobby him on them being allowed to be involved, the Arkansas delegation?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. This is an August 2nd, 1996 letter to Mr. Riady from you.
Previously you had said that you thought you saw Mr. Riady at an APEC business meeting. Was this the time frame or the context of that APEC business meeting? Directing your attention to the second paragraph, it's mentioned.
Answer. It appears to be, but I just don't remember the specific date or the time frame of the APEC business meeting.
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Question. Your letter says, to Mr. Riady, it says, ''You have keen insights in the business matters, both in your region and from a global standpoint, and thus your comments were particularly meaningful to me.''
Do you recall what he discussed with you?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. Okay. Could you tell us about that?
Answer. As I remember, I had a brief exchange with Mr. Riady and John Huang after the President spoke at Mr. Bryant's reception here in Washington. The—and I believe Mr. Riady, as I remember it, complimented me on my presentation, and I am thanking him for his kind words.
Question. But in particular, had he made comments about Asian business matters that caused you to make the observation in the second sentence?
Answer. Well, my remarks were to the Asia/Pacific business group, and as I remember it, Ms. Comstock, his compliments or kind words were about that I had presented my views in the correct way, or in an understandable way. I don't recall what language he used.
Question. Do you have an understanding of Mr. Riady being involved in any fund-raising in 1996?
Answer. I was aware he was supportive of the President and may have been aware he was supportive—I don't recall knowing that or certainly not knowing the extent of his participation, but I knew he was generally supportive of the President, and that could well include financial support.
Question. You don't have any knowledge beyond that general impression?
Answer. I think that was my knowledge.
Question. Do you have an understanding of where Mr. Riady was living, whether he was living in Indonesia or the United States at this time in 1996?
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Answer. No, I did not know.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'll make this Deposition Exhibit Number 27.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–27 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. This is a September 6, 1996 memo to Mack McLarty from Mark Middleton, marked CC-H-000157. It's regarding a Monday meeting and the date is September 6th, 1996.
Do you recall receiving this memo from Mr. Middleton?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. Could you tell us what this is about?
Answer. As I remember, Mr. Middleton called me and related that Mr. Riady and the President had had a visit at some earlier meeting that I was not in attendance, and they did not complete their conversation, according to Mr. Middleton, and that the President had asked Mr. Riady to arrange an appointment with him to finish their conversation. And Mr. Middleton is asking me to follow up on the President's request, making me aware of the President's request.
Question. Do you know how Mark Middleton knew of the President's request?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. So it was Mark Middleton that informed you of the President's request, not the President?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. Did the President ever mention anything to you about this previous meeting?
Answer. I don't believe that he did.
Question. And what was your understanding of what the conversation had been between Mr. Riady and the President?
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Answer. Mr. Middleton said he did not know.
Question. And would the time frame have been fairly recent prior to this September 6, '96 date?
Answer. I believe that is correct.
Question. Did he say where the conversation had occurred?
Answer. I don't know that he named a place in our conversation. He may have, but I don't remember that.
Question. He mentioned Mr. Riady attended a dinner on July 30th, 1996 at a hotel close to the White House. Do you recall if it was in a dinner context, a small dinner or anything like that?
Answer. Ms. Comstock, I've already answered that question. I don't recall whether he mentioned where Mr. Riady and the President had visited. I just simply don't remember whether he mentioned that or not.
Question. So you don't know if it was at the White House or outside or anything that specific?
Answer. I do not know.
Question. So did Mr. Middleton call you somewhere contemporaneously with this September 6, 1996 memo?
Answer. I'm sorry. Repeat the question.
Question. Did Mr. Middleton call you sometime fairly close to the time of this memo?
Answer. I'm not certain when he called me, Ms. Comstock. I just simply don't know.
Question. And then did you, in fact, then get together with Mr. Riady?
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Answer. No, I did not.
Question. And why didn't that occur?
Answer. The request, as I thought I conveyed to you, was for Mr. Riady and the President to meet and complete their conversation.
Question. Okay. I'm sorry. Did that meeting with the President occur?
Answer. It did.
Question. Okay. And did you set that up? I'm sorry to garble this record.
The request had been that you—the request as relayed by Mr. Middleton was asking you to set up a meeting with Mr. Riady so Mr. Riady and the President could complete the conversation of unknown topic; is that correct?
Answer. I believe that's correct. What I remember, and I think I have testified to, is Mr. Middleton called me, as I've already told you, and asked me to assist in arranging an appointment for Mr. Riady that the President had requested after, as I understood it, Mr. Riady and the President had seen each other at some earlier occasion. I believe I told Mr. Middleton that I would make Nancy Hernreich, the President's personal secretary, aware of this request, and I believe I advised Mr. Middleton to call Ms. Hernreich directly.
Question. So do you know then what happened with—did you call Ms. Hernreich, or you told Mr. Middleton to call her?
Answer. I told Mr. Middleton, Ms. Comstock, as I have just testified, that I would make Ms. Hernreich available—make Ms. Hernreich aware of Mr. Middleton's phone call to me and this request, and that Mr. Middleton should call Ms. Hernreich directly.
Question. Okay. And then did you make Ms. Hernreich aware?
Answer. I did.
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Question. And what did you tell her?
Answer. I told her that Mr. Middleton may be calling her about an appointment for James Riady; that, as I understood it, the President had requested to see Mr. Riady to complete a conversation they had had at some earlier point in time.
Question. Did Ms. Hernreich comment on that to you at all?
Answer. I don't recall that she did.
Question. And then could you just walk us through whatever else you know about this meeting?
Answer. The meeting did take place, but I did not learn of it until sometime after it took place.
Question. Okay. And when was that that you learned that it took place?
Answer. I don't recall when I learned that it had taken place. It was sometime after the meeting.
Question. And how did you learn of that?
Answer. I don't recall with certainty how I learned of it.
Question. Can you tell us anything else about the meeting that you know about it?
Answer. I was not at the meeting, and I've told you all I know about it.
Question. Do you know anybody else who was at the meeting?
Answer. I'm not sure who was at the meeting, Ms. Comstock, so I don't think I should speculate on who was there.
Question. Do you know if the meeting occurred at the White House?
Answer. I believe it was my understanding that it did.
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Question. Do you know how you received this memo from Mr. Middleton?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Did he have a practice of faxing things over to you?
Answer. I think on occasion he did fax things.
Question. And would you keep his requests, or how did you——
Answer. I would handle them in the normal course of business, my secretary.
Question. And do you know how those would be kept after you received them?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. The meeting doesn't say who we are talking about here. It refers to the meeting participant. Do you know why there was any secrecy about who the meeting participant was in this case?
Mr. BALLEN. I'm going to object. You're assuming that there was any secrecy, and the witness hasn't testified that there was.
Mr. TAYLOR. And I'll sustain his objection.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I'm wondering why—you have indicated that the meeting participant was Mr. Riady; is that correct?
Answer. That's as I recall Mr. Middleton telling me in our telephone conversation.
Question. I was wondering if you know, you know, if when Mr. Middleton wrote memos to you about Mr. Riady, would he try and not put his name in the memo, or was there any concern about having Mr. Riady's name in a memo to you?
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Answer. I'm not aware of any concern, and I don't know why Mr. Middleton worded a memorandum like this.
Question. When you got the memo, would you have known who he was talking about when he said, the meeting participant staying at the Four Seasons? Were you able to look at it and say, I know who that is?
Answer. I believe Mr. Middleton had already talked to me by telephone by the time I received this, so I think I would have known who he was referring to.
Question. Do you have any knowledge about any meeting that the President had with Mr. Riady in a limousine where he picked him up and was in a limousine talking with Mr. Riady in this time frame?
Answer. It could have been. I just don't remember the place and location where the President and Mr. Riady met, and I was not there, so I just don't remember that level of detail.
Question. And then to this date you have no knowledge about what the meeting the President had with Mr. Riady was about?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Mr. Middleton never learned of it and told you or anything like that?
Answer. I believe Mr. Middleton may have told me the meeting took place, but he did not talk about the subject matter, nor did I ask.
Ms. COMSTOCK. We will make that Deposition Exhibit Number 28.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–28 was marked for identification.]
Mr. BALLEN. I am going to note for the record at this point I believe we have agreed on an approximately 2 o'clock termination for this deposition, and it's been running about 5-1/2 hours approximately with some breaks for Majority questioning, and Minority has approximately 5 minutes of questions that we would like to ask. So this may be an appropriate time to do so.
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Ms. COMSTOCK. We during the break had precluded a lot of the—all of the information about Mr. Tamraz, and I am fairly close to finishing up here, maybe about 15 minutes. Could we have a little leeway on that and just try and finish up that? If we get out of here—I know I can guarantee 2:30, but if we can go about 15, 20 minutes?
Mr. KANJORSKI. That's 35 minutes.
Mr. BALLEN. The Minority does have some questions.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Could I go about 15 minutes then and——
Mr. KANJORSKI. Could I suggest we get the Minority's 5 minutes in?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. Why don't we do that.
Mr. KANJORSKI. If we could allow the time for the Minority.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. Why don't we do that 5 minutes, and then if you could give me a few more, I would appreciate it.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BALLEN:
Question. Mr. McLarty, I would like to take this opportunity, and I know I'm joined by Representative Kanjorski, in thanking you for being here, for generously taking your time this morning and this afternoon. We have been going for close to 5-1/2 hours now. You have a distinguished record in the private sector and an even more distinguished record in public service over the last 4 years, and your time here has been generous. Your answers have been forthcoming.
What's often not reflected in the cold record is the effort one makes to recall details of conversations. You had very important positions in the administration, and I want the record—and I think everyone here in this deposition would note your dedication and effort in answering every question as fully and fairly as you possibly can.
I have a few questions to follow up and then some other questions.
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Did the President or the First Lady, sir, ever ask you to provide any assistance to Webster Hubbell?
Answer. No, they did not.
Question. Let me return, if I may, to Exhibit 3, sir. If you could take my copy of it. Do you have it before you?
Answer. I do.
Question. I believe this was your testimony, and please correct me if I am mistaken, but isn't it the case, sir, that you don't recall whether the various notations on this page came from one person, more than one person, or simply reflect your own thinking?
Answer. That is my testimony.
Question. In 1994——
Ms. COMSTOCK. That you don't know which of those it is?
The WITNESS. That's right. I think I've suggested it could be any, all or none of the three.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BALLEN:
Question. In 1994, you had no personal knowledge, did you, that Mickey Kantor, in fact, attempted to get employment for Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. That is correct. To the best of my memory and knowledge, I did not know that.
Question. You never asked Mr. Kantor to find Mr. Hubbell employment, did you?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. And I believe you testified that you never asked Mr. Rapport to help Mr. Hubbell; is that correct?
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Answer. That is correct.
Question. And you have no specific recollection of Mr. Rapport ever telling you he was helping or planned to help Mr. Hubbell; is that correct?
Answer. That is correct.
Question. Sir, when you spoke to Truman Arnold about Mr. Hubbell, you were discussing employment possibilities for Mr. Hubbell, not possibilities of anyone making a charitable contribution; would that be a fair statement?
Answer. That is a fair statement.
Question. You were not suggesting to Mr. Arnold, were you, that he or anyone else give money to Mr. Hubbell with no expectation of providing any services in return for that money?
Answer. That is absolutely correct.
Question. In fact, I believe you testified that Mr. Arnold asked you for a resume or a bio from Mr. Hubbell so that he could determine whether Mr. Hubbell might—was qualified to provide any services to him or his companies?
Answer. That is correct. I testified about that earlier.
Question. Turning to the March 13th meeting at the White House that you testified to, was there any connection whatsoever between Mr. Hubbell's possible resignation and the Whitewater investigation, sir?
Answer. None whatsoever.
Question. And your help for Mr. Hubbell had nothing to do with Whitewater or anything that Mr. Hubbell might know about Whitewater; is that correct?
Answer. Absolutely, that is correct.
Question. Now, with respect to your March 1994 conversation with Marsha Scott which you testified to earlier, Marsha Scott never specifically suggested that you help Mr. Hubbell find job opportunities, did she?
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Answer. I don't recall Ms. Scott and I ever talking about employment opportunities for Mr. Hubbell.
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me for one moment.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BALLEN:
Question. I have a few questions that Mr. Condit, a Member of our committee, wanted to make sure we asked.
Have you been asked by any other official investigative body to testify or provide evidence on any of the matters being investigated by this committee?
Answer. Yes, I have.
Question. And who would that be, sir? Which bodies?
Answer. The——
Question. It might be a long list.
Answer. The Senate, the Justice Department, and the Special Counsel's Office, Special Prosecutor's Office.
Question. And have you provided documents or searched for documents in regard to those areas?
Answer. Yes, I have.
Question. Would it be fair to say that the request for information overlapped with the request from this committee?
Answer. That would be fair to say.
Question. And that documents, information and testimony provided to this committee have been previously provided other investigative bodies?
Answer. They have been.
Question. Do you have any requests in the future to provide evidence or testimony in regards to these matters?
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Answer. I believe we have outstanding requests.
Question. Can you estimate, and I realize this is a difficult question, but can you estimate how much of your time has been diverted from your official duties in responding to requests for interviews, testimony, documents and information through various congressional and other investigative organizations?
Answer. I would like to say too much. A great deal.
Question. When you say a great deal, is this a matter of hours, days, weeks? Is there any way to estimate? I know it's hard to come up with a round number.
Answer. Many, many hours.
Question. Have you taken much time from your official duties to respond, sir?
Answer. I have.
Question. Have you incurred any expenses in this regard?
Answer. Substantial.
Question. Can you estimate the nature of the expenses?
Answer. May I confer with my attorney?
Mr. TAYLOR. I'm sorry. What's the question?
Mr. BALLEN. I'll repeat the question.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BALLEN:
Question. Can you estimate the nature of the expenses that you have incurred in regard to the various investigations?
Mr. TAYLOR. I appreciate the concern. I'm sure he does. I do not think that's a matter which he would like to put on public record. His legal fees have been an enormous burden, and I'm not talking about just tens of thousands of dollars.
Mr. BALLEN. I think that's fair.
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EXAMINATION BY MR. BALLEN:
Question. Has this committee offered to reimburse you for your time and expenses incurred?
Answer. Not to my knowledge.
Question. Would you seek reimbursement from the committee on expenses?
Answer. I would ask my attorneys to evaluate any appropriate seeking of reimbursement.
Mr. BALLEN. Thank you, sir. Again, thank you very much for your time.
Mr. KANJORSKI. I would just ask, this is not as closely relevant. The point was made earlier by the examination of the Majority counsel the fact that Mr. Hubbell received somewhere around $500,000 in that hiatus period from leaving the Justice Department. Are you aware of the fact that he was named one of the best scholars in America for 4 years prior to being named second in command of the Justice Department, and that he had honorably served as Chief Justice of the highest court of Arkansas?
The WITNESS. I was aware that Mr. Hubbell had served on the Supreme Court and had a very fine reputation as a lawyer in Arkansas.
Mr. KANJORSKI. And you probably, from your exposure in Washington, D.C. in the last 4-1/2 years, would not find it unusual for a senior partner of a major law firm with this type of a background to receive his fees or remuneration far in excess of a half million dollars a year; that would not be unusual?
The WITNESS. That was my experience in the private sector, as well as here.
Mr. KANJORSKI. All right. Thank you.
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Mr. BALLEN. May I just have one more moment?
[Pause in proceedings.]
Mr. BALLEN. Thank you very much, sir. I think I kept it within a short period of time of 5 to 10 minutes.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I just have a few more questions.
Mr. TAYLOR. Let me simply say that at 2:25 we are leaving.
Mr. KANJORSKI. Can I interject and say 2:15? We all have—some of our schedules are really—why don't you really close it up. We are going to have another period of examination.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I think we will be finished quickly.
Mr. TAYLOR. She will be finished with a capital F at 2:25.
Ms. COMSTOCK. But I will try to meet yours, Congressman.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I just wanted to show you some phone records which I believe you provided to the committee which reflect some phone calls to a Los Angeles number of 625-1888, which I believe is the LippoBank.
Can you tell us what those calls are regarding?
Answer. Yes.
Question. I'm sorry, the bill is for January of 1994, so the calls are—December of 1993, on 12-23, 12-27. I'll let you tell us what they are.
Answer. I believe I can tell you what they are.
Question. Okay. Could you do that?
Answer. I believe they have to do with our son, who is a junior at Georgetown, going to the Chinese university in Hong Kong, and after discussing that with my wife, I called John Huang, who was the only person I knew from Hong Kong, or seemed to be a logical person to call, and told him Mark was going to be spending a semester there and really asked for any advice or counsel he might have about safety matters, security matters, hospitals, things of that nature.
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Question. And what did he tell you?
Answer. He was quite courteous and helpful, and said he thought our son would have a fine experience there. He was quite positive about his attending school in Hong Kong.
Question. And prior to this time, had you had many contacts with John Huang?
Answer. I had met Mr. Huang on two or three occasions prior to this.
Question. And if you could just briefly tell us what those occasions were. Were they events at the White House?
Mr. BALLEN. Well, he has already told you about the summit.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yes.
The WITNESS. I recall meeting him in Little Rock at the economic conference, which I've already testified to, and I believe Mr. Huang accompanied the Governor of Jakarta, I think he was at that meeting as well, and I may have seen him on one or two other occasions during my time in Washington in 1993.
Question. And were you aware of him seeking a job in the administration at this time in December of 1993?
Answer. I don't remember that I was. It's possible, Ms. Comstock, that I was, but I don't—sitting here today I don't recall that I was.
Question. Were you ever involved in any discussions about the hiring of Mr. Huang?
Answer. No, I do not believe that I was.
Question. Do you know anything about how Mr. Huang came to be hired at the Commerce Department?
Answer. No, I don't believe I knew anything about that matter.
Question. And again, when Mr. Huang left his Commerce Department job and went to the DNC, do you have any knowledge about those discussions about Mr. Huang leaving and going to the DNC?
Page 825 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. So this September 13th, 1995 meeting that's been reported on that the President was at and Mr. Giroir, Mr. Riady, Mr. Huang and Mr. Lindsey, you have no knowledge about the discussions in those meetings?
Answer. No, I do not.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I would like to make these phone records—I will not make these phone records part of the record, since it has your phone number in it. I will just say for the record these are phone records of Mr. McLarty that have been provided in a personal production, and the LippoBank number on here, which I'll put that in the record, is (213) 625-1888, and Mr. McLarty has indicated that that was a number that he called to reach Mr. John Huang. We will not make that an exhibit.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay. If you can give us a brief narrative, there have been reports on meetings had with Mark Jimenez. Could you just briefly discuss with us how you came to meet with Mr. Jimenez?
Mr. BALLEN. If, in fact, you did.
The WITNESS. I did meet with Mr. Jimenez. I believe the first time I met him was in September of 1995. Mr. Middleton had requested a courtesy visit by Mr. Jimenez and had related to me that he had been a strong supporter with the Summit of the Americas, which the President had asked me to coordinate in 1994 in Miami, Florida, a meeting of the democratically-elected heads of state from this hemisphere. I may have met Mr. Jimenez during the summit; I don't recall that I did.
Mr. Middleton also said Mr. Jimenez was a successful businessperson with active interest in Latin America, which was increasingly my responsibility, and I had a regular practice of meeting with businesspeople both from the United States and from Latin America, Canada and the Caribbean as part of my responsibility in following up at the summit. So I had a courtesy visit, I believe, with him in September of 1995.
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Question. Did you have any contact with the NSC at that time in meeting Mr. Jimenez?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. And did there come a time when you met with Mr. Jimenez again?
Answer. There did.
Question. And would that be in February of 1996?
Answer. Ms. Comstock, I don't believe I met Mr. Jimenez in February of 1996. I believe the meeting was somewhat later.
Question. And what do you recall about that second meeting?
Answer. I recall that I had a request to meet with Mr. Jimenez and Dr. Mersan, who was known as the top economic advisor to President Wasmosy in Paraguay, not a formal member of the government, but a consultant to President Wasmosy, who was very much in favor of open markets, which was consistent with our policy and consistent with some of the Summit of the Americas agenda. I believe my schedule, however, precluded my meeting with Mr. Jimenez and Dr. Mersan in February, and I did not meet with them.
Question. So the February meetings that are reflected did not occur then?
Answer. I believe that's the case. I do not believe I ever met Dr. Mersan.
Question. Did there come a time then when you did meet with Mr. Jimenez?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And what occurred at that meeting?
Answer. I believe there was a follow-up request, since we did not have that scheduled meeting. I believe at that point I was aware that Mr. Jimenez had an active business interest throughout Latin America and had a particular interest in Paraguay, which had its first democracy literally in the history of the country, and we, of course—again, that was part of the Summit of the Americas agenda to confirm and support democracies.
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Part of my responsibility in following up on the summit, I did agree to meet with Mr. Jimenez. I think it was suggested with some emphasis on Paraguay, which I thought was important, given it was a small country and many times did not get much attention from our government, and I thought it was important that we do so.
We did meet. I don't recall the exact date of the meeting. As I remember it, Ms. Comstock, Mr. Jimenez did raise points about the fragility of the Paraguayan democracy, the newness of it. I believe he raised the certification issue; I believe we had decertified Paraguay of the certification process on March 1, and I believe his view was that was a negative from President Wasmosy's standpoint in trying to develop democratic institutions in Paraguay, and I believe then he mentioned or noted his concern about a possible instability in Paraguay.
At that point the conversation, in my mind, was different than I had anticipated with very serious issues, potential issues being raised, and I told Mr. Jimenez I appreciated his input, but I felt the proper people should be involved in any discussions of this type, and while I had involvement in the hemisphere, we were now getting into issues that were not my direct responsibility, and we appreciated his input, and we would try to arrange such meetings as necessary.
Question. Were you aware that Mr. Jimenez was a donor to the DNC?
Answer. Yes, I believe I was aware he was a supporter by this time.
Question. And had you been aware that he had been—the previous meeting when he tried to meet with you, he was there for a coffee event?
Answer. I don't think I knew he was there for a coffee event. I think I was aware he had requested a meeting, or Dr. Mersan had requested a meeting, with me, and Mr. Jimenez was going to be with him.
Question. Did you have any understanding that these were clients of Mark Middleton, or Mr. Middleton had an affiliation with them?
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Answer. I knew Mr. Jimenez and Mr. Middleton knew each other and knew each other in a favorable way. I, frankly, did not know whether Mr. Jimenez and his company were clients of Mr. Middleton's or not.
Question. Do you know if Mr. Middleton attended this meeting that you had ultimately with Mr. Jimenez?
Answer. I don't believe Mr. Middleton was present at that meeting, Ms. Comstock. He may have been, but I do not believe that he was.
Question. This is two pages. This is regarding Mr. Grobmyer. We had just previously discussed a little bit about Mr. Grobmyer's——
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me. Could we have a copy of this for Mr. Kanjorski as well?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Actually, you have my full copy. I don't even have a full copy myself, but you guys keep that one.
Mr. BALLEN. We'll get it when we get back.
Since we don't have any—since we do not get the exhibits in advance of the deposition, the Minority would like an opportunity to review them.
Ms. COMSTOCK. But these are all documents that you all have.
Mr. BALLEN. Well, they may be documents we have, I don't know——
Mr. TAYLOR. I thought we had distinguished them from another half a million papers.
Mr. BALLEN. That's right. That's the point I was going to make.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I was just wondering, we had just briefly discussed before Mr. Grobmyer's plutonium project he was working on. I was just wondering if this refreshes your recollection at all about any activities that Mr. Grobmyer was involved in in trying to meet with the NSC on?
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Answer. No, I don't recall any requests by Mr. Grobmyer to meet with the NSC on this matter. I don't recall any requests on his part.
Question. Were you aware of anything having to do with a plutonium project that Mr. Grobmyer was working on in Arkansas trying to make casks or things that were going to be utilized in this project in Arkansas?
Answer. I don't remember it, Ms. Comstock, sitting here today. From time to time Mr. Grobmyer did send me information, and I normally would just try to facilitate it to the proper department for handling.
Mr. BALLEN. I would note for the record this has been asked and answered, and there is nothing in these e-mails that is to this witness, no indication that he received these.
Ms. COMSTOCK. No, I think that's clear from the record. Well, it's clear from the e-mail, and we will make that an exhibit. We will make this Exhibit Number 29.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–29 was marked for identification.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. Thank you very much, Mr. McLarty. I appreciate your time today.
Mr. TAYLOR. No further questions?
Mr. BALLEN. No further questions.
[Whereupon, at 2:20 p.m., the deposition concluded.]
[The exhibits referred to follow:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 523 to 570 HERE
[The official committee record contains additional material here.]
[The deposition of Bruce R. Lindsey follows:]
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Executive Session
| Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, |
| U.S. House of Representatives, |
| Washington, DC. |
DEPOSITION OF: BRUCE R. LINDSEY
| Monday, September 8, 1997 |
The deposition in the above matter was held in Room 2247, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 10:00 a.m.
Appearances:
Staff Present for the Government Reform and Oversight Committee: Barbara Comstock, Chief Investigative Counsel; Kristi Remington, Investigative Counsel; David N. Bossie, Oversight Coordinator; Kenneth Ballen, Minority Chief Investigative Counsel; and Andrew J. McLaughlin, Minority Counsel.
Also Present: Representatives Waxman and Kanjorski.
For MR. LINDSEY:
WILLIAM J. MURPHY, ESQ.
NEIL R. WHITE, ESQ.
Murphy & Schaffer
Ninth Floor,
100 Light Street
Baltimore, Maryland 21202-1019
Ms. COMSTOCK. Good morning, Mr. Lindsey. I'd like to begin by thanking you on behalf of the members of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight for appearing here today. This proceedings is known as a deposition. The person transcribing this proceeding is a House reporter and notary public. I will now request that the reporter place you under oath.
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THEREUPON, BRUCE R. LINDSEY, a witness, was called for examination by Counsel, and after having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
Ms. COMSTOCK. I would like to note, for the record, those who are present at the beginning of the deposition. My name is Barbara Comstock. I'm the chief investigative counsel of the committee and designated Majority counsel today. I'm accompanied today by Kristi Remington, who is also Majority investigative counsel. Ken Ballen will be the designated counsel.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I'll note, for the record, that the notice we got was that this deposition was to be in 2203 Rayburn, so Ken Ballen is currently being retrieved. We will allow the Majority counsel to go ahead with reading the preamble, but maybe we'll pause when Mr. Ballen arrives.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Mr. Ballen will be accompanied by Andrew McLaughlin, who is also with the Minority staff. Although this proceeding is being held in a somewhat informal atmosphere, because you've been placed under oath, your testimony here today has the same force and effect as if you were testifying before the committee or in a courtroom. If I ask you about conversations you have had in the past, and you are unable to recall the exact words used in the conversation, you may state that you are unable to recall those exact words and then you may give me the gist or substance of any such conversation to the best of your recollection.
If you recall only part of a conversation or only part of an event, please give my your best recollection of those events or parts of conversations that you could recall. If I ask whether you have any information upon a particular subject and you've overheard other persons conversing with each other regarding it or have seen correspondence or documentation regarding it, please tell me that you do have such information and indicate the source, either a conversation or documentation or otherwise from which you have received such knowledge.
Before we begin the questioning, I would like to give you some background about the investigation and your appearance here today. Pursuant to its authority under House Rules X and XI of the House of Representatives, the committee is engaged in a wide-ranging review of possible political fund-raising improprieties and possible violations of law within the committee's jurisdiction.
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[Mr. Ballen enters the room.]
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Barbara, let's go off the record for a second.
[Discussion off the record.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. Pages 2 through 4 of House Report 105-139 summarizes the investigation as of June 19, 1997, and encompasses any new matters which arise directly or indirectly during the course of the investigation. Also pages 4 through 11 of the report explain the background of the investigation. All questions related either directly or indirectly to these issues or questions which have a tendency to make the existence of any pertinent fact more or less probable than it would be without the evidence is proper.
The committee has been granted specific authorization to conduct this deposition pursuant to House Resolution 167, which passed the full House on June 20, 1997. Committee rule 20 of which you've received a copy outlines the ground rules for the deposition.
The Majority and Minority committee counsel will ask you questions regarding the subject matter of the investigation. Minority counsel will ask questions after Majority counsel is finished. After the Minority counsel has completed questioning you, a new round of questions may begin. Members of Congress who wish to ask questions will be afforded an immediate opportunity to ask their questions at any time when they may be present. When they are finished, committee counsel will then resume questioning.
Pursuant to the committee's rules, you're allowed to have an attorney present to advise you of your rights. Any objection raised by your attorney during the course of the deposition may be stated for the record. If a witness is instructed not to answer a question or otherwise refuses to answer a question, Majority and the Minority counsel will confer to determine whether the objection is proper. If Majority and Minority question agree that a question is proper, the witness will be asked to answer the question.
If the objection is not withdrawn by the witness' attorney, a Chairman or Member designated by the Chairman will decide whether the objection is proper, which means it may not be made public without the consent of the committee pursuant to clause 2(k)(7) of House Rule XI.
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You are asked to abide by the Rules of the House and not discuss with anyone other than your attorney this deposition and the issues and questions raised during this proceedings. Finally, no later than five days after your testimony is transcribed and you have been notified that your transcript is available, you may submit suggested changes to the Chairman.
The transcript will be available for your review at the committee office. Committee staff may make any typographical and technical changes requested by you. Substantive changes, modifications, clarifications, or amendments to the deposition transcript submitted by you must be accompanied by a letter requesting the changes and a statement for your reasons for each proposed change. A letter questioning any substantive changes, modifications, clarifications, or amendments must be signed by you. Any substantive changes, modifications, clarifications, or amendments shall be included with an appendix to the transcript conditioned upon your signing the transcript.
With agreement by Minority counsel, we have extended that beyond five days, and we can also mail the transcript to you. We just ask that you sign a form saying that you haven't copied it or shared it with anybody else and that both you and the witness. So whatever is convenient for you, we can make arrangements.
The WITNESS. That will be more convenient, I'm sure.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Do you understand everything we've gone over so far?
The WITNESS. Yes.
Is there anything in Rule 20 about a tape recorder? Sorry.
Mr. BALLEN. I have a statement for the record. Under House Rule XI 2(k)(8), any objections as to relevancy or pertinency are ultimately matters for the full committee to decide even after ruling by the Chair.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I want to go over a few ground rules, too, before we get started. If you don't understand a question, I'd asked that you let me know, and I will repeat or rephrase it so that you do understand the question. The reporter will be taking down everything we say and will make a written record of the deposition. You must give verbal, audible answers because the reporter cannot record what a nod of the head or other gesture means. If you can't hear me, please say so and I'll repeat the question or have the court reporter read the question.
Page 834 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
I would ask that you wait until I finish each question before answering, and I will wait until you finish your answer before I ask the next question so that we're not speaking over each other.
Your testimony is being taken under oath, as if we were in court, and it will be assumed that you understood the question and answer and that the answer you provide was intended to be responsive to it.
Do you have any questions about any of those matters?
The
4Witness. No. I mean, the only thing I would do, I mean, is say that, obviously, if I answer a question that I don't understand, it is not necessarily—I obviously understood the question that I thought I was understanding. I may not have understood the question you were asking. So I don't believe it is fair to suggest that if I answer a question, I understood the question that you were asking, clearly that I understood what I thought the question was.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Sure, I think that will be clear.
Mr. MURPHY. I think the law takes into account what you just said, Mr. Lindsey.
Ms. COMSTOCK. If we can go off the record for a minute.
[Discussion off the record.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Are you here voluntarily today or as a result of a subpoena?
Answer. Voluntarily.
Question. Okay. I am not going to go through all the preliminary background things because we have that on previous records. So I'd like to go into initially some matters that you handled when you were Personnel Director.
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Could you just state for the record, then, Mr. Lindsey, when you first became Director of Personnel at the White House.
Answer. January 20, 1993.
Question. And in that position, did you have various assistants?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And who were your main assistants at that time?
Answer. Two. One, John Emerson, was a Deputy, and Jan Piercy was a Deputy. We then had associate directors and others. We started out with a staff probably, a hundred plus. We ended up with a staff nine, ten months later of 24. So we were downsizing throughout that entire period.
Question. And at that time, was there an office called Priority Placement that handled priority placements?
Answer. I'm not sure that's what it is was called. But I mean, there was—there were several offices. We had an office that dealt with congressional inquiries, which were considered to be priority placements. We had an office that dealt with political individuals who had been involved in the campaign, which is probably what you're referring to.
Question. Was that Michael Whouley?
Answer. Michael Whouley, yes. And again, he dealt mostly with trying to place people who were involved in the campaign. But again, we got hundreds and thousands of requests from Congressmen and we had an office that also sort of tried to prioritize those, and we consider those to be priority requests, too.
Question. Did Bob Nash work in your office at that time?
Answer. For a short period of time, yes. Bob Nash was one of the Deputy Directors during the transition. I think there were four or five deputy directors during the transition. He continued to work in Presidential personnel until he went to the Department of Agriculture, and I don't quite remember when that was.
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Question. And did Gil Colon work in that office?
Answer. Yes.
Mr. BALLEN. Who? I'm sorry, I'm having trouble hearing.
Ms. COMSTOCK. C-O-L-O-N.
The WITNESS. Yes. He worked in the one of the—he worked in the Personnel Office, yes. I'm not sure exactly what year and area.
EXAMINATION BY MR. COMSTOCK:
Question. And did you know Mr. Colon prior to him joining that position in your office?
Answer. No, I don't believe so. Unless I knew him in the campaign. But I don't recall knowing him in the campaign.
Question. So the first time that you recall meeting him is when he was working in your office?
Answer. I mean, I don't recall the first time I met him. First time I ever dealt with him I probably was—other than in passing was when he was in the office.
Question. Do you know what his background was before he started working in your office?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know who hired him?
Answer. No.
Question. Who was hiring people for the Personnel Office at that time?
Answer. Most of the people in the Personnel Office came from the transition, in fact, and were part of the transition personnel operation; and they simply came in as White House employees, if you will, once the President became President. Dick Riley was the Personnel Director during the transition. So, you know, he ultimately, I guess, would have been responsible. Whether he actually hired the people or not, I don't know.
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Question. So Mr. Colon just sort of arrived on January 20th?
Answer. Again, I don't have any recollection of whether or not he was there before or came after. You know, if he went to work on the 20th, then most likely he came as part of the transition personnel operation. If he came later, again, we hired some people. Again, most of it was a downsizing, not increasing.
Now, obviously, there might have been people that we need who had particular background or expertise, but I don't remember whether he was one of those or not.
Question. Do you know how long he worked in the office?
Answer. No.
Question. And did a Gary Chrisopherson work in your office at that time?
Answer. Yes.
Question. In 1993?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And how did he come to work in your office?
Answer. I have no idea.
Question. And do you recall how long he was there?
Answer. He outlasted me. I think he was still there when I left. Again, as we downsized, he took on more and more responsibility and more and more agencies. But I think he was still there when I left.
Question. Did Maria Haley work in the office at that time?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And what was your understanding of what her responsibilities were?
Answer. She clearly predated me. I mean, she was there as part of the transition group. Again, she had certain areas that I can't recall today which departments or agencies she had, but she had a group of agencies and departments. She also helped with our outreach mostly to the Asian-American community.
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Question. Did you have an understanding of her working on the campaign?
Answer. She is from Arkansas. I don't—I'm sure she was involved in the campaign in some way. I'm not quite sure what her role was in the campaign, whether she had a formal role or just simply was a supporter.
Question. And was Ginger Lu in the office at that time?
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me, I'm having great difficulty hearing you. I'm not hearing most of the questions. If you could try to speak up a little bit.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Was Ginger Lu in your office at that time?
Answer. At some—again, I don't know whether she predates my coming there or came after. But, yes, at some point she was in the office.
Question. And what was your understanding of what she did?
Answer. I don't—I believe she had several departments or agencies under her, but I couldn't tell you which ones they were.
Question. Do you know if she was involved in the Commerce Department at all?
Answer. Before she went there, I don't know.
Question. That is before she went to become General Counsel at the Commerce Department?
Answer. Yeah, at some point she became general counsel at the Commerce Department. I don't know whether she did Commerce Department before then or not. I was thinking that Maria at one point did the Commerce Department, but I don't—I'm not absolutely sure of that. There should be—there should be some sort of records within the Personnel Office that would show who had which agencies and departments.
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Question. Do you know somebody by the name of Martha Watanabe, W-A-T-A-N-A-B-E, who worked in the Personnel Office?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of her being involved in tracking in kind of Asian priority hires?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know Melinda Yee?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And how did she come to have her position in the Personnel Office?
Answer. Again, I don't know. My speculation is that she would predate me, that she would have been there as part of the transition, but I don't know that for a fact.
Question. When you're saying that she predated you or somebody predated you, you mean they were involved in the transition and then just sort of everyone ended up in the Personnel Office or whoever had been involved in personnel throughout the transition ended up in your office?
Answer. Right. We had a transition personnel operation that was headed by Dick Riley that Jan Piercy was involved in, and I know Bob Nash was involved in that. Maria Haley, I know, was involved in it, and I believe a number of these other people were also involved in it. They, during the transition, began to put together a list of people for the Cabinet and the sub-Cabinet positions, mostly for the sub-Cabinet, because the President did most of the Cabinet from Little Rock, but for the deputies, secretaries, the assistant secretaries, and so forth.
When Dick Riley was named Secretary of Education, we then began looking for a new Personnel Director. Several people were considered; either had the good sense to turn it down or couldn't do it. Toward the end, I was named Personnel Director in addition to my other responsibilities. So I went in on January 20th into this operation, but into an operation that had basically been going on for two months prior to that period. And, so, most of the people who were there predated me and I simply inherited them, if you will. And then, when we moved into the White House, that entire operation, to the extent we had the slots for them, came with us. So they were there before I was there.
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Question. When you started working on personnel, did you become aware of the DNC being involved in providing any lists of personnel who were ''must hires''?
Mr. MURPHY. I'm sorry, ''who were must hires?''
Ms. COMSTOCK. ''Must hires.'' Put ''must hires'' in quotes.
The WITNESS. Yeah. We got lists—I don't know if I can tell you I recall seeing a DNC list. We got lists from everybody, you know, political, nonpolitical, ethnic, you know, whatever, any organization basically. And frankly, we sought it, too. I mean, if they knew the kinds of people we were looking for, if they had people they could recommend for that, we wanted as many names in our pool as we could to choose from. So we would receive, you know, lists from all sorts of people and organizations.
You know, whether I knew there was a DNC list, I don't know that I can tell you I recall seeing a DNC list. I would expect there to be a DNC list of people that they would be recommending, yes. The campaign had a list. Individual States have lists. Asian-Americans, African-Americans, Hispanic-Americans, all of these various organizations and groups provided us lists of people they thought we should consider.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Did there come a time where you received lists that had John Huang's name on it for hiring?
Answer. Again, I don't recall at the time. I would not have gotten the list. I've seen lists lately, you know, since all of this, with John Huang's name on it.
Question. You mean you've seen lists in the past few months?
Answer. Right.
Question. Or in the course of depositions elsewhere?
Answer. Right. I'm trying to remember the woman's name in California that sent a list of eight or nine Asian-Americans that she thought we should consider and John's name was on there. It is the one that I sort of specifically remember.
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Question. Nora Lum?
Answer. No. She worked for the State Senate.
[Witness confers with counsel.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. March Fong Eu?
Answer. No.
Mr. BALLEN. Was this something you saw recently?
The WITNESS. Right. This is something that was out there in the last month or two. Probably on the Senate committee where she had a whole list of people and one person was John Huang. I remember seeing him on that list.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'm sorry on what committee?
The WITNESS. Senate committee, your counterpart.
Mr. MURPHY. Counterpart across the Hill.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I didn't understand with the ''I'' instead of the ''E''.
The WITNESS. Anyway, I don't remember what the woman's name is, but I know she sent a list of 9 or 12 people that she considered to be priorities of the Asian-American committee and John's name was on that.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recall independently, do you have a recollection of talking to anybody about John Huang in 1993?
Answer. Well, at some point in 1993, I must have talked with Gary Chrisopherson. But I don't—today, I don't recall doing that. I just know that, you know, he says he and I met and discussed John Huang in October or November of 1993, you know. But other than that, no, I don't recall.
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Question. All right. And again, your knowledge of Mr. Chrisopherson is only from recent depositions or information you've gathered recently. You don't have an independent recollection?
Answer. I do not independently recall having a conversation in September, October, November of 1993 with Gary about John Huang. Though, if you look at the documentation and his testimony, we must have had that conversation.
Question. So you don't dispute his testimony as to your talking with him about——
Answer. No.
Question. John Huang in September-October '93?
Answer. No. I just don't recall it.
Question. Do you recall any previous conversations with anybody in the spring of 1993 about John Huang?
Answer. No.
Question. Did the Riadys ever talk with you about Mr. Huang in the spring of 1993?
Answer. I don't believe so, no.
Question. Did you have occasion to meet or visit with the Riadys in the spring of 1993?
Answer. Meet or visit. My sense is I think I remember passing them in the White House and saying ''hello'' to them. I don't recall ever having a meeting with them in that time frame.
Question. Do you recall Mr. Riady being in your office to make any phone calls in the spring of 1993?
Answer. In my office, no.
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Ms. COMSTOCK. This is a document I believe we received from the White House. It just has a mark on the top of page 22. I'm not sure which production we got from the White House. I think this is one of the early-on productions. It is a Lippo Group letter, and it is to Bruce from James Riady.
Do you recall receiving this note from Mr. Riady?
Mr. MURPHY. Are we marking this as an exhibit, Ms. Comstock?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yeah, I will. I just want to move along here.
The WITNESS. I don't recall getting this.
Mr. BALLEN. I'll note, for the record, there's no date on this document.
Ms. COMSTOCK. That is correct.
The WITNESS. It does refer to a trip to Tokyo, which I think occurred in June of '93.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yes. I believe we have other White House records that indicate, I believe, Merriam Nemitz reviewed a number of visits with the Riadys. And I guess, from talking with people and looking at records, it was the White House's best estimate that this letter was at or around June of 1993 or sometime prior.
Mr. BALLEN. I'm going to object. If we're going to ask the witness questions and elicit the witness' testimony, that's fine. But I don't think we should be representing what other people have told us.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Well, I'll be happy to find the White House document indicating that. But I think the witness has indicated that this Tokyo trip, which is referred to here, is in June of '93, which was also the basis for the White House determining that's what they thought the letter was from. But if we could move on.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
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Question. You don't recall getting this note from Mr. Riady?
Answer. No.
Question. The first line of it says, ''Thanks so much for your kind help and attention.''
You don't know what help or attention you may have given the Riadys in the spring of 1993?
Answer. No. I don't know—no. Other than I would speak to them and be, you know, pleasant I would hope.
Question. And the next sentence says, ''Have a nice and successful trip in Tokyo, and God bless you.''
The Tokyo trip was in June of 1993; is that correct?
Answer. I believe so.
Question. And was a trip the President went on?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Do you know were there any trade issues that you were working on in that trip in 1993?
Mr. BALLEN. I'm going to object as to relevancy whether Mr. Lindsey was working on trade issues. It is far afield from the campaign finance investigation we're supposed to be conducting.
The WITNESS. Do you still want me to answer?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Yes.
Answer. He's absolutely correct. I didn't work on trade issues. So if you're asking me whether there were any trade issues that I was working on, the answer is, no. If you're asking whether there were trade issues the White House was working on—I take that back, there is a trade issue I work on now. But I didn't at the time. If you're asking whether or not there were trade issues the White House worked on, I have no idea.
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And I'm trying to remember what the purpose of the Tokyo trip was. I'm having trouble even doing that. It may have been a G-7 meeting.
Question. In the spring of 1993, were you aware of anyone from the Riady family expressing their views on trade issues to anybody at the White House?
Answer. No.
Question. So you were not aware of Mr. Mochtar Riady or James Riady writing to the President regarding any trade issues regarding MFN or Vietnam or anything like that?
Answer. Not at the time, no. I've seen the letter again—after all this came out, I saw the letter that Mochtar Riady wrote the President, but I was not aware of it at the time.
Question. And that letter was regarding trade issues; is that right?
Answer. I don't recall.
Question. When did you first meet either James or Mochtar Riady?
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me. I'm going to note, for the record, Mr. Bossie of the Majority staff has entered the room.
Mr. MURPHY. I was going to object and say that's a compound question.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Have you ever met Mochtar Riady?
Answer. Yes.
Question. When did you first meet him?
Answer. First and only time I met him was in Indonesia.
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Question. And when was that?
Answer. November of '94.
Question. And that's the only time that you ever met Mochtar Riady?
Answer. That I recall, yes.
Question. When did you first meet James Riady?
Answer. Don't know. The first time I recall meeting him I believe was probably in the campaign of '92. Though, it is possible that I was introduced to him at some point in Arkansas when he was there. Though, I had no dealings with him. It would have simply been that he and I were at the same spot at some point and someone introduced us. I don't recall that, but it certainly would be possible.
Question. Were you aware of the Riadys donating large amounts of money to the DNC in 1992? Did there come a time when you learned that they had made large contributions to the DNC?
Answer. I don't quite know what you mean by ''large contributions.'' I knew that the Riadys were supporters of the President. Now, you know, I had——
Question. Hundreds of thousands of dollars?
Answer. Again, I had nothing to do with the DNC in 1992, so I wouldn't have known who contributed to the DNC in 1992. And whether I—you know, I mean, whether I've seen stories about how much they contributed over the years to the DNC or to other Democratic groups, it would all be from probably newspaper and those sorts of articles, not from personal knowledge.
Question. So, in 1992 or 1993, you didn't have any knowledge of the Riadys having contributed to the President's campaign?
Answer. Again, I knew they were supporters of the President. And to the extent that—I would assume, to the extent that they could, they would have contributed to the campaign. But of course, that's a fairly limited amount that you can contribute to a Federal campaign, and it is only in the primary.
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Question. Did you have any knowledge of them contributing to State parties?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you have any knowledge of them making large contributions to the Arkansas Democratic party in 1992?
Answer. I don't think so.
Question. So this document, which I'll mark as Deposition Exhibit Number 1, the Lippo Group note from Mr. Riady, you have no recollection of what this is about?
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–1 was marked for identification.]
[Note.—All exhibits referred to may be found at end of the deposition.]
Mr. BALLEN. I'm going to object. That's the third time the witness has been asked the same question. He's testified three times already he has no recollection. I doubt his answer is going to change on the fourth time.
Mr. MURPHY. I'll join in that objection. Is this a copy we can keep?
Ms. COMSTOCK. No. Actually, our documents we have to keep.
Mr. MURPHY. I don't get a copy? I object.
Ms. COMSTOCK. This is a document from the DNC, which was a memo to Chairman Wilhelm from Vida Benavides regarding an APA Must Place List. It is an Asian-Pacific American must place list. It is Bates-stamped F 31769 through 71.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
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Question. Do you recall ever seeing any list such as this in the Personnel Office?
Answer. No.
Question. And directing your attention to the second page, the Commerce Department lists John Huang as a DAS for Asia, Shan Thever serve as a DAS for Africa, and T.S. Chung for export/import.
Do you recall any of those individuals being discussed as ''must hires'' in the Personnel Office?
Answer. No. I mean, I don't recall anybody being discussed as a ''must hire.'' The fact of the matter is, again, I was not—the way the process worked was that social directors would cull the various lists when there was a position, meet with others, meet with groups, they would formulate a recommendation, which would work its way ultimately to me, and I would receive a decision memo.
If it was a DAS, which would be not a Senate-confirmed position, then I would sign off on the memo. If it was an assistant secretary, a deputy secretary, an under secretary position, or one that required Senate confirmation, if I concurred, I would forward it to the President and the President would have to sign off on it.
But I would not be involved in any, if you will, sort of internal vetting and discussion of the candidates. That would all be done by the associate directors before it ever would get to either the deputies or to me.
Question. What was your understanding of how that process worked for John Huang?
Answer. Same way I just described. Again, most of this is after the fact, listening to Gary Christopherson's testimony, but that he met with a group of people to discuss various positions and John's name came up, that they considered him to be qualified; that on the one position they offered him—you know, there are other positions he was considered for that he did not get—that on the position that he ultimately took that they had made a recommendation, that that recommendation went to me, that, according to Gary, I concurred in it. We had a problem with the timing and it was delayed, and ultimately Phil later signed off on it because it was delayed until after I left Personnel Operation.
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Mr. BALLEN. Mr. Lindsey, is this in your own personal recollection?
The WITNESS. No, this is none of my recollection. This is Gary Christopherson's testimony.
Mr. BALLEN. Well, I think the committee is capable of looking at someone else's testimony, and I think both Majority and Minority counsel would like to ask you to restrict your testimony to your own personal knowledge.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Well, he's explaining whose knowledge it is. So I think that's clear from the record that we did in opening ask you for any knowledge of this.
Mr. BALLEN. What is the point of the preamble, then, which tells him that he should not speculate?
Ms. COMSTOCK. The preamble discusses what the basis of his knowledge is, what he's telling us.
Mr. BALLEN. I'm going to object to any recounting by the witness of newspaper articles, testimony of other people, or anything along those lines. The witness is here to testify as to his own personal knowledge and recollection. We're perfectly capable of reading the newspapers ourselves.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Well, it is also of some assistance that the witness does not dispute cross accounts. So even though he is indicating he doesn't recall these things, he doesn't dispute or deny that things occurred, which is of some assistance to the committee in determining how these matters occur.
Mr. BALLEN. But he doesn't recall them, so to ask him to recount someone else's testimony, I think, is unfair to the witness and unfair to the members of the committee.
Mr. MURPHY. Let's move on. Mr. Lindsey, in the future I think if you're going to testify about something that you only know from having seen someone else's testimony or read something in the newspaper and the like, just let us know that right at the start.
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The WITNESS. I thought I had, but okay.
Mr. MURPHY. I thought you had, too.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I think he did.
I will make this APA must place list Deposition Exhibit Number 2.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–2 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. This is a document from the White House, EOP 48876 through 77, which is an Asian Pacific American Must Consider Recommendations to the Clinton Administration, submitted by Doris Matsui, with Maria Haley and Melinda Yee. Melinda Yee's name is on the second page as well as John Huang's.
Do you recall in general discussing John Huang with any of these individuals, Doris Matsui, or actually I want to go through each individual. Do you recall discussing John Huang with Doris Matsui?
Answer. No.
Question. Or with Maria Haley?
Answer. No.
Question. Or with Melinda Yee?
Answer. No.
Question. It was your understanding Melinda Yee was working in the Personnel Division, that she would have been one of these persons who was working on preparing the material for somebody such as Mr. Huang?
Answer. I don't understand that question.
Question. When you had previously testified that there were others of your staff beneath you that were putting together the material and you weren't involved in some of the details, was Melinda Yee one of the people?
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Mr. MURPHY. I think he said one of the people involved in putting together lists of people to be considered for positions.
It was your understanding that Melinda Yee was one of those people involved in putting together lists of people?
The WITNESS. Well, I don't recall Melinda Yee's position was within the personnel operation. I don't remember whether she had her own agencies and departments or whether she worked under one of the associate directors who had an agency or department. So, again, you know, I think I knew that Melinda Yee was involved in Asian outreach and therefore would help to identify Asian-Americans for consideration. But whether or not she did that in addition to having specific departments and agencies that she was responsible for, I don't recall.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And the same question for Maria Haley. Do you recall if she was involved with preparing lists?
Answer. Again, Maria Haley had, I do know, had specific departments and agencies that she was responsible for, and therefore she was responsible for making recommendations ultimately to me and to the President with respect to her agencies and departments. You know, she also being Asian-American was concerned about Asian-American outreach and so I assume she also helped identify qualified Asian-American candidates.
Question. Do you recall having any conversations with her about John Huang?
Answer. You asked me that. No.
Question. Make that deposition Exhibit Number 3.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–3 was marked for identification.]
The WITNESS. Just in order would reflect—you asked me earlier whether Melinda Yee was there before I was and this would reflect she was.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. This is an August 27th, 1993, memo to John Emerson from David Wilhelm regarding Asian Pacific American administration appointments. And attached to it is a list of Asian Pacific Americans who are interested in being considered for positions with the administration. And I believe Mr. Wilhelm asks that a staff person contact Martha Phipps, who was a staffer in his office, with the status of the applications of the various people who are listed on here.
Were you aware of John Emerson ever talking to anyone at the DNC about any of the people on this list, if you'd like to take a chance to review it?
Answer. Again, the answer is do I know that he did? The answer to that is, no, I did not. Would I expect that he would be involved partially because of what his position was with talking to all sorts of groups about all sorts of people? The answer is probably. But I don't know that I ever knew he talked specifically to the DNC about any personnel matter.
Question. And directing your attention to the last page of the document, which is F 31768, it mentions John Huang and it mentions that he is a DNC trustee and major fund-raiser. Did you often get recommendations that indicated that people were trustees or major fund-raisers?
Answer. I have no idea. Again, I don't know if I ever got—I don't think I ever got this document so, you know.
Question. I'm just wondering in general, if you recall, getting recommendations that included the people who were DNC trustees or major fund-raisers?
Answer. Again, if you're asking me whether I can recall specifically, the answer is, no. Would I expect someone to reflect if he was a DNC trustee or a major fund-raiser either on a resume or in a letter, yes, I would think that if that was part of their background and involvement in the Democratic Party and involvement in the Presidential election, that that—that they would reflect that.
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Do I recall specifically? Can I tell you any person that I remember seeing that on? The answer is, no.
Question. And it also indicates here that under John Huang, it says, quote, ''needs extra push for Deputy Assistant Secretary position for the East Asia and Pacific.'' Do you recall any discussion of John Huang needing an extra push or anything like that?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge on or around the summer of '93 of there being any reluctance to hire Mr. Huang at the Commerce Department?
Mr. MURPHY. At the Commerce Department?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Or hiring him for a position in the administration in general?
Mr. MURPHY. Are you asking about any reluctance on the parts of anybody?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yes. It says he—I'm just wondering if in general if you recall any reluctance to give him a position?
The WITNESS. Specifically to John Huang, no.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Did there come a time when you became aware that there were people at the Commerce Department who didn't feel that Mr. Huang was qualified for the positions he was being considered for?
Answer. At the time? No.
Question. Did you ever talk to Martha Phipps at the DNC about any of the individuals listed on this memo?
Answer. I doubt it. No, I mean not that I recall.
Question. Were you involved in the appointment of March Fong Eu?
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Answer. To ambassador?
Question. Yes.
Answer. Yes.
Question. Could you just tell us who had recommended March Fong Eu for this position?
Answer. I have no idea. I mean, you know, she was again either recommended to me or was on a list. Most of the people who got to be ambassadors were sort of self-suggested. They would contact us and indicate that they would like to be considered to be an ambassador, and they would indicate to us sort of where they would be interested in serving. You know, we would then review the list of ambassadorial appointments and make a judgment as to, you know, who we would recommend or who the President would recommend for the various embassies.
Question. Were you aware of March Fong Eu being involved in fund-raising in 1992?
Answer. I know that March Fong Eu was a supporter of ours in California. Whether or not it was fund-raising or political support, I don't think I knew.
Question. I'll make that deposition Exhibit Number 4.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–4 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. This is EOP 004234 through 36, which is a memo to Jan Piercy and John Emerson, which I believe you indicated were Deputies at that time, from Maria Haley regarding Asian Pacific Americans. It is a March 11th memo and it is cced to you and then it is attached to a March 10th, 1993, memo to Maria Haley from Melinda Yee.
Do you recall receiving this memo?
Answer. No.
Question. I'm directing your attention to the last page. John Huang is listed on here. And on page 4235, the second page of the document, the memo to Maria Haley from Melinda Yee, reads ''Per your conversation with John Emerson and Jan Piercy on March 2, the following Asian Pacific Americans were extremely helpful, dedicated and involved during the campaign and/or transition.'' It says, ''All are sponsored internally by Doris Matsui, you, and me.''
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Does that refresh your recollection as to who may have recommended John Huang to you?
Answer. You showed me the November '92 document. I mean I have no recollection other than you just showed me a document that showed that Doris Matsui, Maria Haley and Melinda Yee recommended John Huang plus——
Question. But this document in particular, it was cced to you?
Answer. No, I don't recall seeing this document.
Question. Okay. And then directing your attention back to the last page where it mentions John Huang. It mentions he is currently Vice Chair of Lippo Bank. It says, ''met in meetings with BC several times.'' I'm assuming BC is Bill Clinton. And then it says, ''close to many Senators and Members of Congress and co-host of Asian Pacific American fund-raiser during campaign in Los Angeles.''
Did you have any knowledge about John Huang being in meetings with the President? And this is any time prior to this March 11th, '93 memo.
Answer. You know, yeah. I don't know if I have specific knowledge of John Huang being there. We had tons of meetings in California with Californian supporters all during the '92 campaign, and do I think John Huang probably attended some of those meetings? Yes.
Do I recall him attending them? No. But you know, I found it, you know, I had—I would believe that he probably—he was a supporter of ours and I would believe that he did attend meetings we held in California throughout the '92 campaign.
Question. Do you recall when you first met John Huang?
Answer. I think I first met John Huang in the '92 campaign.
Question. And at that time did you have knowledge of the President being a long-time friend of John Huang?
Answer. I'm not sure I have—a long-time friend is not the way I probably would do it. The answer probably is, no. But I mean I'm not sure that I would characterize Clinton's relationship with John Huang prior to that as being friend as opposed to acquaintance. But the answer is I probably did not know about the President's relationship either way with John Huang at that time.
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Question. Well I'm using the President's words, actually, on July 22nd, 1996. At a fund-raiser, the President had described Mr. Huang as ''my long-time friend.'' I think ''my long-time, good friend, John Huang.'' Do you have any reason to dispute the President's description of his long-time friendship with Mr. Huang?
Mr. MURPHY. Objection. When did the President say——
The WITNESS. Ninety-six.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Ninety-six. It was ''long-time friend.''
Mr. BALLEN. I think that is a very unfair question. The President makes a statement in a fund-raiser about someone and now you're going to ask the witness does he dispute the President's characterization.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you have knowledge that the President was friends with him before '92 or long-time friends between '96 and back to '92?
Answer. Again, you're asking me whether I knew in 1992 that they were long-time friends. I said I would have some question as to whether or not that would describe the relationship before 1992. I don't think using—again, I don't think using a quote in '96, 4 years later to describe the relationship at that time would necessarily describe the relationship prior to 1992. But the answer is, you know, in 1996, would I believe that Bill Clinton and John Huang were friends? Yes. In 1992, did I know that Bill Clinton and John Huang were long-time friends? The answer is, no.
Question. Did something happen between '92 and '96 to make you think that they were long-time friends?
Answer. Four years in which I knew they had a relationship transpired.
Question. And what was that relationship, well, he appointed him in 1993. In 1995, he indicated he wanted to go to the DNC. He went to the DNC. He was involved with much of the campaign fund-raising, and in the first half of 1996 a lot happened between 1992 and '96 that would allow an acquaintanceship to Bill, a friendship.
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Question. Okay. And could you just describe generally the growing friendship, then, of Mr. Huang with the President between '92 and '96?
Answer. I just did, I thought. I mean, you know, at least from my point of view, I saw the President and John Huang interact—I saw them interact none prior to 1992. I saw them interact, you know, on six or seven occasions between 1992 and June or July or August of 1996. So if you're asking, you know, you know, I don't know how many times they had met or seen each other prior to 1992.
I think I met John Huang for the first time in 1992. I knew he worked with the Riadys. I knew the Riadys had a relationship with Arkansas. But beyond that, I didn't know much or anything about Bill Clinton's relationship with John Huang.
Mr. BALLEN. Mr. Lindsey, during the time from 1992 to '96, was John Huang a close personal advisor or close policy advisor to the President of the United States?
The WITNESS. No. No. Again, he probably saw him, y'all have the records better than I, three or four or five times in the first 3 years of that 4-year period, and in the fourth year to the extent that he was involved in fund-raising activities and the President attended fund-raisers, they probably saw each other more. But as a policy advisor during any of that period, I don't believe John was a policy adviser.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Were you aware of Mr. Huang being involved with a group called APAC, Asian Pacific Advisory Council?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge about APAC fund-raising in 1992?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know a woman named Nora Lum?
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Answer. I know who she is. You—they, I don't know her. I may have met her on occasion, but I don't know her.
Question. Do you recall meeting with her?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you recall her meeting with you in the spring of 1993?
Answer. No.
Mr. MURPHY. Isn't that the same question?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. So you have no recollection of any of the——
Answer. I know that she attended a meeting with other people in the Asian Pacific American community that was, you know, that may have been with me, they may not have been with me that I may have had John Emerson go to in my place. If I went, then I met her, I assume, if she was in that meeting.
Do I recall Nora Lum versus anybody else in that meeting? The answer to that is, no. I don't even recall the meeting.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'd like to make this March 11th, 1993, memo Deposition Exhibit Number 5.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–5 was marked for identification.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. And this is EOP 2153 through 154. It is an April 19, 1993, memo to the President through Bruce Lindsey from Gil Colon and Maria Haley, and the subject is Associate Deputy Administrator for Business Development at the Small Business Administration, and it is discussing a position for Mary Leslie.
In paragraph number 2 it notes that it should be noted that there is another qualified candidate for this position, Mr. John Huang.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recall this memo?
Answer. No.
Question. You mentioned previously that memos to the President only went on certain levels of appointment; is that correct?
Answer. Correct.
Question. And they would stop, though, with you before they went on to the President. Would that be—if Gil Colon and Maria Haley wrote this memo to the President without you having reviewed it before it went on to the President?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Okay. But you don't recall ever reviewing this?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you recall being involved in Mary Leslie's selection?
Answer. No. I mean, you know, I knew Mary Leslie. I knew Erskin wanted Mary Leslie to be at the SBA. Whether I recall this memo or anything, Erskin was the designated head of the SBA and Mary Leslie was his choice, and I would not have opposed that. I would have been inclined to give him who he wanted.
Question. We were just discussing Nora Lum, whom you said you didn't know. Do you recall when Gil Colon, I guess, left the Personnel Office, did he go to the Commerce Department to work?
Mr. MURPHY. Objection to the preface of that question. What does Ms. Lum have to do with the question?
Ms. COMSTOCK. We'll get to that in a moment.
Mr. MURPHY. Why don't you just ask the question. The question is whether Mr. Colon went where?
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you know if Mr. Colon was going to work for Nora Lum at Dynamic Energy?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know when Mr. Colon did, indeed, leave the Personnel Office?
Answer. At some point, yes.
Question. Do you recall him telling you where he was going to work?
Answer. No. I thought Gil Colon went to the Minority Business Section of, maybe, Commerce.
Question. And did you have—did you keep in touch with him when he went there?
Answer. I don't think so.
Question. Do you know of anyone in your office keeping in touch with him?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know of anyone in your office keeping in touch with him when he was at Dynamic Energy.
Answer. I don't think that he was ever at Dynamic Energy.
Question. But you have no knowledge of anybody in the Personnel Office communicating with Gil Colon?
Answer. I left the Personnel Office in November of '93. Are you telling me he went to Dynamic Energy before then?
Question. I'm asking if you have any knowledge.
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Answer. You asked me whether anybody in the Personnel Office—I wasn't in the Personnel Office. You said in my office. And the answer——
Question. No, he went there after November of '93.
Answer. Then if he kept in touch with someone in the Personnel Office, they were not in my office.
Question. Did you have any reason to keep in touch with Mr. Colon?
Answer. No.
Mr. MURPHY. Can we take a break?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yes. Before we go off the record, why don't we make this April 18, 1993, memo Deposition Exhibit Number 6.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–6 was marked for identification.]
[Recess.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. We're back on the record.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. This is a document from the White House that was prepared—I believe the Counsel's Office by someone, which goes through Nora Lum's WAVEs into the White House, and it's—directing your attention to March 8, 1993. It has—it lists your name there.
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me, counsel, could I ask the origins of this document?
Ms. COMSTOCK. It's from the White House.
Mr. BALLEN. Do we know who prepared it, because usually WAVE records come in a computer printout.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I think we have theirs also, but this was Counsel's Office had prepared these various versions.
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Mr. BALLEN. So it could be a draft. We don't know the accuracy, do we?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recognize the handwriting?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay. But you do not recall that meeting with Nora Lum in March 1993 other than what you testified to?
Answer. Correct.
Question. And then on March 23—it lists Haley there. Do you have knowledge of Nora Lum meeting with Maria Haley?
Answer. No.
Question. And then on March 29 it lists Yee. Do you have any knowledge of Nora Lum meeting with Melinda Yee?
Answer. No.
Question. And then there are a number of other visits with Melinda Yee. You don't have any knowledge of Nora Lum ever meeting with Melinda Yee?
Answer. No.
Question. You had said you thought you met John Huang in 1992. Do you recall where you met him?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you recall generally if you met him in California?
Answer. No. I mean, I don't recall. I mean, he worked in California so that it would be logical, but I don't recall.
Question. Okay, so you have no general recollection of how or where you met John Huang?
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Answer. No. And I say '92, it could have been '91. It was the '92 campaign, but it could have been sometime after we began campaigning for the Presidency in October of 1991.
Question. And is there a time when you met with John Huang that you recall the meeting?
Answer. No, I don't think I ever met with John Huang individually, I mean, so, you know, again——
Mr. MURPHY. You mean during the campaign?
The WITNESS. I only met with him, I think, once, frankly. Um—maybe once, maybe twice, period; but I don't remember any time during the campaign meeting with him specifically.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay, and what are the one or two meetings that you recall meeting with him?
Answer. Yes, I mean, obviously one of them was the meeting with the President in whatever the year was—what was it? October of '95?
Question. So you were at the September 13, 1995 meeting with James Riady and Mr. Giroir and the President?
Answer. Right, and John Huang.
Question. And that was September 13——
Answer. September 13, 1995.
Question. And we'll return to that later.
Answer. Yeah, but I'm trying to—that may be the only time I ever met, you know, with John that I recall.
Question. Okay.
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Answer. Oh. I take that back. I met with him 3 days, 2 days later in my office to follow up on that meeting.
Question. On September 15, 1995?
Answer. Whatever. You know the date better than I do, whatever the date is.
Question. All right, okay. But you had no—would it assist your recollection on Nora Lum for me to tell you that Gil Colon, John Huang and Melinda Yee and Maria Haley all had done some work with APEC in California in 1992?
Answer. No. I mean, help me. In what way?
Question. Just wondering if that could help assist you in placing when you may have met any of these people, because all of they these people worked in California on APEC in 1992, and a number of them, Melinda Yee and Maria Haley and Gil Colon all end up in the Personnel Office in your office, and then one of the people they recommend is John Huang, who was somebody who also worked in there, and then Nora Lum is coming in for meetings with these various people. I'm wondering if——
Answer. Sounds like they all had a relationship with each other.
Question. But you had no knowledge of those relationships?
Answer. No. I mean, you know, we did events in the Asian community, you know, in California. Again, you know, whether—you know, whether John was at those events or not—you're asking me whether I recall whether he was at those events. I don't recall. Was he probably at some or all of those events? The answer probably is yes, but if you're asking me whether I recall seeing him, talking with him, and having a specific memory of it, the answer is no.
Question. Did Ron Brown ever talk to you about John Huang?
Answer. I don't think so. Not that I recall.
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Ms. COMSTOCK. Mark this Deposition Exhibit Number 7, Nora Lum, chronology of visits.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–7 was marked for identification.]
Mr. BALLEN. Purported chronology of visits, because I object to—we have the actual WAVEs records. We should be introducing those into evidence rather than——
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'll be happy to get those for the record also.
Mr. BALLEN. That would be preferable.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Apparently we're not—we just have these summaries from the White House.
It is a White House document.
Mr. MURPHY. It's got an EOP stamp on it.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yes.
Mr. MURPHY. So unless somebody else is stamping things EOP, it——
Ms. COMSTOCK. No.
Mr. MURPHY.—came from the White House.
Ms. COMSTOCK. You're correct.
Mr. BALLEN.—announce that for the record I'm going to note that the Secret Service provides——
Ms. COMSTOCK. They don't provide us with WAVE records, they provide us with exits and entrances, and at that time the Secret Service in 1993 and 1994 did not do exits and entrances for visitors. That did not begin until June of 1995. So the Secret Service is not able to provide us with any of Nora Lum's visits prior to 19—the summer or thereabouts of 1995.
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Mr. MURPHY. Is there a question coming?
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'm just correcting the record.
I'm showing the witness a letter to James Riady from Vernon Weaver, which is HHH 3958.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. It's a May 19, 1993 letter from Vernon Weaver to James Riady, and directing your attention to the second paragraph, it says, ''We have heard nothing from the White House yet on the Indonesian appointment, although we are keeping up the pressure.''
Do you have any knowledge of Vernon Weaver talking to you about any appointments—any Indonesian appointments?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge about any interests that the Riadys had in any Indonesian appointments in 1993?
Answer. Do I now have knowledge?
Question. Did you then, and then I'll——
Answer. The answer is no.
Question. Do you now have knowledge of the Riadys having interest in Indonesian appointments?
Answer. Appointments, no.
I'm sorry, when you say, do I now have knowledge what were you—you said ''appointments'' with an S. I believe this refers to them trying to get a meeting with the President and the President of Indonesia.
Question. This is regarding the meeting with Suharto and the recommendation for the meeting with Suharto——
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Answer. If I was reading this, that's what I would read in that, not personnel appointments. But again, it's just from reading it. It's the way it's written, it's what the words are. I don't think it has anything to do with personnel appointments.
Question. And were you aware of them putting some pressure for the President to meet with Suharto?
Answer. Was I then? No.
Question. And when did you learn that they did?
Answer. I don't know that they did. I know that there's an issue. As to whether they raised it with the President, that I've learned in the last 6, 7 months.
Question. But you had no knowledge of it then?
Answer. No.
Question. And what is your knowledge of it now, just what you've read in the paper; is that what you're suggesting?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Have you discussed that with anybody at the White House?
Answer. No. Within the Counsel's Office maybe.
Question. And who have you discussed that with?
Answer. You know, probably everybody in trying to pull together whatever documents we had with respect to, you know, whether or not they saw the President, what they talked to the President about, you know, all in response to your all's subpoenas.
Question. And what did you learn about the attempts of the Riadys to meet with the President or get——
Answer. I didn't learn anything about the attempts. I learned that there was a photo op at some time prior to us going to Tokyo, and there was a question as to whether or not—during that photo op they raised with the President whether or not he was going to meet with Suharto. I think I've read the President has indicated that if he met with them before that, he thinks that they may have, although he doesn't recall, and, you know, everything I know has basically come from the newspapers.
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Question. Have you ever discussed this with the President?
Answer. No.
Question. You've never discussed any of the meetings the President had with the Riadys with the President?
Answer. I was in two of them, but, you know, I don't know if I ever discussed independently of being there other than, you know—but, you know, I don't know that I've ever discussed with the President because I wasn't there, and my understanding is he doesn't recall whether or not he—whether the Riadys mentioned to him meeting with Suharto.
Question. But I'm asking you about this April photo op and then the Suharto discussion, if you've ever discussed that with the President.
Mr. MURPHY. Objection.
Do you want to answer that?
The WITNESS. I think—you know——
Mr. MURPHY. I think that's a privileged communication. To the extent that Mr. Lindsey had a conversation with the President, it's privileged.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Would you like to consult with the White House on that?
Mr. MURPHY. Well, they're not here.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Have you talked with—I mean, is that a position of the Counsel's Office that the President wants to claim executive privilege over conversations that you had with him about discussions with the President involving Mr. Riady?
The WITNESS. I don't know what the White House position is on that.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Well, I'm not—the White House hasn't informed us that they were intending to claim executive privilege over any conversations that the President had about Mr. Riady. If we could—if you would like to call Mr. Ruff and clarify that for the record——
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The WITNESS. Do you want us to do it now?
Ms. COMSTOCK.—because there might be other questions as we go along. So we can go off the record.
[Discussion off the record.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. Go back on the record.
Mr. Lindsey has called Chuck Ruff, the White House Counsel, while we were off the record.
The WITNESS. Right. And Mr. Ruff informs me—he says that these sorts of conversations give rise to serious executive privilege concerns; that at this time I should not respond, and that he will be happy to discuss it with you after the deposition.
Mr. MURPHY. Well, given that advice from White House Counsel, Mr. Lindsey is not free to answer the question.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. I would ask that the reporter please mark the question and the instruction to this witness and prepare an index of the page at which each instruction is given to this witness not to answer such questions, because we will have other questions about any discussions you had with the President about Mr. Riady or Mr. Huang.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Could we take a break for just a minute?
[Discussion off the record.]
Mr. MURPHY. After consulting with Mr. Lindsey, let me just inform you that it's my understanding that the conversation with the President to which Mr. Lindsey made brief reference was a conversation in anticipation of an interview with the New York Times about the subject that you were inquiring about. And Mr. Lindsey, I think, would be free to say that what Mr. Clinton had to say about this subject to the New York Times was consistent with what Mr. Lindsey and the President discussed in advance of the New York Times interview.
We don't have any problem with Mr. Lindsey talking about things that the President disclosed to the New York Times, obviously. So if it sort of short-circuits a major constitutional crisis here, we can do that by Mr. Lindsey confirming that what the President recalled as he recalled it to the New York Times about the subject of the Suharto meeting or the efforts on the part of the Riadys to have President Clinton agree to meet with Suharto—basically Mr. Lindsey would say that what the President said to the New York Times about that subject is consistent with what the President also told Mr. Lindsey about that subject.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay. Well, why don't we skip the New York Times as the middleman now, and if you could just tell me what the President had said to you?
Mr. MURPHY. I don't want Mr. Lindsey to do that because I think it's important that we recognize that the reason why Mr. Lindsey may be free to talk about the subject is because it's a subject that the President has disclosed to the public.
Mr. BALLEN. And I also like to put on the record the Minority's view on this, which is that had White House counsel been permitted to be in this deposition, we could work—as they were in the Senate depositions, we could work out these issues of executive privilege to everyone's satisfaction without taking long breaks. And I think that's unfortunate that White House counsel is not here——
Ms. COMSTOCK. I don't think we had to take a long break at all. Mr. Lindsey was able to reach Chuck Ruff very quickly.
Mr. BALLEN. It took 10 minutes.
Ms. COMSTOCK. It wasn't—we did not take a break for that issue.
Mr. MURPHY. Well, be that as it may, Mr. Lindsey was able to reach Mr. Ruff quickly, which is fortunate, but in any event, I've told you what I told you, and if you want to follow up on that, you're free to do so.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I'd like to ask you what the conversation was you had with the President prior to the New York Times article, if that's the conversation you had with the President?
Answer. Again I'm not—you know, I'm not prepared today to talk about a conversation I had with the President that arose after these issues, you know, came up and that I believe with—in my role as a member of the Counsel's Office. I will say what Bill said, which is what he told me was consistent with what he told the New York Times.
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Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. Well, I think we'll probably be returning to the New York Times article, but I would still ask the reporter to mark the question and instructions to this witness and to prepare an index at that page so that we can return to that at a later date or time.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Is that the only such conversation you had with the President—this conversation prior to the New York Times article, is that the only conversation you had about the April meeting——
Answer. Yes.
Question. That the President had with the Riadys?
Answer. Again, I don't know if I could characterize it as a meeting, but yes.
Question. Okay. Returning to the May 19, 1993 letter, the second sentence in the second paragraph reads that ''I believe that a decision should be made in the next 3 or 4 weeks so it may be time to get John Huang involved again.''
Do you know what involvement John Huang had——
Answer. No.
Question. With the meeting regarding Suharto?
Answer. No.
Question. Or do you have any knowledge of John Huang being involved in any matters that the Riadys or the Stephens Group were trying to bring to the attention of the White House?
Answer. No.
Mr. BALLEN. Mr. Lindsey, have you ever seen this document before?
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The WITNESS. No, sir.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay. Do you know Vernon Weaver?
Answer. Yes.
Question. How long have you known Mr. Weaver?
Answer. Oh, I probably met him prior to 1993, but I don't think I really knew him until '94 or '95.
Question. And how did you come to know him?
Answer. Well, at one time we lived in a apartment at the Watergate, and he also had a apartment at the Watergate, and we were at the pool together.
Question. Okay. And were you friendly with Mr. Weaver; do you go out on social occasions?
Answer. I don't know that I've ever been at a social occasion with Mr. Weaver, so, you know, I mean, we were friendly, passing friendly, but not social friends.
Question. And were you aware of his work with the Stephens Company?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And did he have occasion to visit the White House or discuss any matters with you about Stephens?
Answer. Yeah, but I don't know the answer to the first part. The answer to the second part is no, he never discussed any matters with me.
Question. Are you aware of him discussing any matters related to Stephens with anyone else at the White House?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you have any involvement in his appointment as Ambassador?
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Answer. No.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Can I make this Deposition Exhibit Number 8?
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–8 was marked for identification.]
Mr. BALLEN. What about the second page? There's two pages stapled together. So that's also part of the——
Ms. COMSTOCK. The first page referred to the second page, so that's—even though—didn't question the witness about it.
Mr. BALLEN. For the record sir, have you seen either of the pages of the exhibit?
The WITNESS. No, sir.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. September 23, 1993 letter to John Huang from March Fong Eu. And in it Miss March Fong Eu discusses that, White House sources have confirmed I have been nominated as United States Ambassador to Micronesia following routine clearances.
Can—you previously said that you had been involved somewhat in March Fong Eu's appointment. Could you tell us what your involvement in that was?
Answer. I was part of a group that met to discuss ambassadorial appointments.
Question. Did you meet with March Fong Eu at any time?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you recall discussing her with the President?
Answer. Do I recall specifically? No.
Question. Do you have any general recollections of who you discussed her appointment with?
Answer. Well, I'm sure that her appointment came up with the President as we were discussing who to a point. I don't recall specifically it coming up, but it would have had to come up as part of our discussions on ambassadorial appointments.
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Question. Okay, and directing your attention to the second paragraph she writes to Mr. Huang, ''I want you to know how much I appreciate your support in this lengthy appointment process. I am truly honored to have had the benefit of your endorsement.''
Are you aware of John Huang endorsing March Fong Eu or providing any recommendations to your office?
Answer. No.
Question. Did there come a time that you learned that March Fong Eu wanted to leave her post as Ambassador to Micronesia?
Answer. I don't believe so.
Question. Have you had any communication with March Fong Eu at all since her appointment?
Answer. I don't believe so.
Question. And you have no knowledge of her involvement in fund-raising in 1996?
Answer. No.
Question. Who was the working group on ambassadors?
Answer. Secretary of State, the national security—it was in '93. I don't know who it was this time—Secretary of State, national security adviser, the Vice President, myself and the President.
Question. And so that would have been the group that discussed this appointment?
Answer. Would have discussed all ambassadorial appointments, yes.
Question. And do you know who prepared—who had done the preliminary work to prepare for this appointment—who within the office would have done that?
Answer. John Emerson, I think, had responsibility for ambassadorial appointments, so he would have prepared paperwork——
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Question. And were you aware of him being in touch with March Fong Eu or having meetings with her?
Answer. No.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Make that Deposition Exhibit Number 9.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–9 was marked for identification.].
The WITNESS. There may have been meetings in which John was also involved, and maybe Jan, frankly, were involved, also when we discussed ambassadors, but I'm not sure they attended most or all of the meetings. But there may have been at times when we were doing ambassadorial discussions John and/or Jan would have been there as well.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And do you recall if there was any discussion of March Fong Eu having been a fund-raiser, raised funds for Clinton-Gore?
Answer. I don't remember any discussion of March Fong Eu specifically at all, so the answer to that is no. Again, I knew she was a supporter of ours in California.
Question. All right. This is an October 1993 memo I believe that you have previously referred to, was a memo for Bruce Lindsey from Gary Christopherson, Associate Director of Presidential Personnel, dated October 18, l993, and it was regarding John Huang being appointed Deputy Assistant Secretary for East Asia and Pacific International Trade Administration at the Commerce Department.
You previously indicated you did not recall getting this memo from Mr. Christopherson; is that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And do you recognize the handwriting on the top of the memo?
Answer. No.
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Question. All right. I believe the handwriting on the right says, ''Check this with Bueno.''
Do you recall someone named Bueno who was at the Counsel's Office who worked with your office on appointments?
Answer. Vaguely.
Question. Do you know what his job was?
Answer. We had a whole group of people who vetted candidates. I assume he was one of the vetters.
Question. Okay, and did Bill Kennedy at that time oversee that group of vetters in 1993?
Answer. No.
Question. Who did?
Answer. We had two different groups, and I don't know which one. There was—Personnel has their own vetting operation, and I can't remember who oversaw it; and the Counsel's Office had their own separate vetting operation that Bill Kennedy was over.
We did initial vetting within the Personnel Office prior to a person being selected. Once a person was selected, they then filled out a whole lot of forms, and those forms were given to the Counsel's Office, and the Counsel's Office then vetted the person after the fact. But again the initial vetting of people as we were making a decision were done by a separate vetting operation within the Personnel operation.
Question. And who worked on that?
Answer. Again, I can't recall.
Question. Okay, but at this point when this memo—this is getting to the point where the vetting has been done and this—in your office and was now going to move on to Counsel's Office; isn't that correct?
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Answer. Do that in Counsel's Office after we check this.
Question. Approve or disapprove?
Answer. Approve or disapprove. We then give back, they send out all the forms to the candidate, the candidate fills out the forms, sends the forms back, and at that point the Counsel's Office vets the person before we actually nominate or appoint, depending on whether it's a nomination or appointment. So this would be prior to——
Question. Mr. Kennedy is in charge of that vetting process—the second—in the Counsel's Office?
Answer. Right, but there is no sign-off on this memo, so this would not have gone to the Kennedy vetting operation because we would not have sent Mr. Huang his forms.
Question. Well, I understand, but I'm just asking in general the process. Once this was signed off on, it would have gone to Mr. Kennedy; isn't that correct?
Answer. The forms would have gone to Mr. Kennedy's operation, yes.
Mr. MURPHY. Clarify the record. Mr. Bueno; do you vaguely recall which operation was he?
The WITNESS. I think he was in our operation, not in Kennedy's operation.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Mr. Bueno you think may have been in the Personnel Office, not the Counsel's Office?
Answer. I believe that's right.
Question. Is it Edgar or——
Answer. It's something like Edgar Bueno, I think, is in the Counsel's Office—I may be wrong—I mean, in the Personnel Office. I may be wrong, but I think he's in the Personnel Office.
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Question. One of the things it indicates there, it says, check this with Bueno, fund-raiser on December 4th.
Do you recall the issue of a fund-raiser holding up Mr. Huang's appointment?
Answer. I don't recall anything about John's appointment or meeting with Gary or talking about any of this. Have I seen documents that suggested that that happened? Yes. But do I recall contemporaneous with October or November of '93? No.
Question. And do you normally travel with the President when he goes to California?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And were you aware of a December 4th fund-raiser that was—Creative Arts Agency fund-raiser? Do you remember being at one in California?
Answer. I remember—I don't remember the date. I remember is I came to a CAA fund-raiser, yeah.
Question. And do you recall if John Huang had anything to do with that fund-raiser?
Answer. I don't recall that, no.
Question. Do you recall any fund-raisers that John Huang was involved in on that trip that involved the CAA fund-raiser?
Answer. No. I mean, we did two fund-raisers that night. We did a CAA fund-raiser, and then we did a fund-raiser at somebody's house. Again, I don't remember John—again, I wouldn't have known whether John was involved in the fund-raising or not. Whether I saw him there or not, I don't recall—at either of the two fund-raisers.
Question. It's your testimony that you have no recollection of anything having to do with Mr. Christopherson writing this memo—or anything having to do with this December 4th date on here?
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Mr. BALLEN. I'm going to object. That's the fifth time now in the course of an hour and a half the witness has been asked the same thing.
Ms. COMSTOCK. The witness hadn't looked at this document before today—I mean——
Mr. BALLEN. The witness has testified on five different questions, record speaks for itself.
Mr. MURPHY. I think the witness has made it clear that other than hearing Mr. Christopherson testifying about this and seeing the memo, he has——
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Have you ever seen this memo before today?
Answer. Yes.
Question. So you have seen this memo, and you still have no recollection of December 4th or anything having to do with Mr. Huang's position being held up for a fund-raiser?
Answer. I don't doubt that it happened. Do I remember a conversation with Gary or any discussion about it? The answer to that is no.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'd like that marked Deposition Exhibit Number 10.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–10 was marked for identification.]
Mr. BALLEN. And for the record, whether or not the position was held up was not established by testimony from this witness.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:.
Question. Okay. I'll just go through a few more documents that I guess you probably won't recall, but just look through them if you can.
Mr. MURPHY. Don't anticipate.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay. December 4th, 1993, my understanding——
Mr. BALLEN. I'm going to object to that characterization. I think it's unfair, ''You probably don't recall.''
Ms. COMSTOCK. The witness has indicated that he doesn't recall anything about John Huang, but I would like to go through a number of more documents to attempt to refresh his recollection.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I don't know which documents you may or may not have seen in other depositions, so I will need to go through these, but I'm just trying to see if we can get any assistance here in refreshing your recollection on any matters related to John Huang's appointment.
Have you seen this December 4th memo?
Answer. I don't recall ever seeing this one.
Question. To you from Gary somebody?
Answer. No, I don't recall seeing this until today.
Question. Okay. So this is the first time you have seen this document.
Okay, and this document is an EOP 2126 document. It is a redacted document also, so I don't know what else is on here. It is a document from the White House, which reads, ''The appointment of John Huang to this Commerce position is one we discussed in your office and agreed to proceed with in early December.''
Does that refresh your recollection as to whether you talked with Mr. Christopherson about John Huang?
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Answer. No. My lawyer tells me I may have seen this in the Senate deposition, but I don't recall even seeing it in the Senate deposition. But no, it was not—nothing I've seen refreshes my recollection that it occurred. I don't remember the meeting.
Question. Okay, and the letter also reads that both Presidential Personnel and the Department strongly recommend this appointment.
Do you know who in the Department of Commerce strongly supported Mr. Huang's appointment?
Answer. No.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Make that Deposition Exhibit Number 11.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–11 was marked for identification.].
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. This is a December 6 memo for Bruce Lindsey from Gary Christopherson, Associate Director Presidential Personnel, and from Eileen Parisi, who—White House Liaison, Department of Commerce.
Can you tell us what Ms. Parisi's position—what she did?
Answer. Says White House Liaison, Department of Commerce.
Question. And what did that involve?
Answer. Well, the White House Liaison and all were sort of their link back to the White House and specifically, from my point of view, to the White House Personnel Office, so that they helped us identify positions that were available, they helped us understand what the qualifications were for the positions, and they helped us identify potential candidates for those positions.
Question. Do you recall any conversations you had with Ms. Parisi about John Huang?
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Answer. I don't know if I know Eileen Parisi at all, and I was not in Personnel, by the way, on December 6, 1993.
Question. Okay. Do you know why this memo is directed to you on December 6, 1993?
Answer. No. I can speculate, but I don't know.
Question. Okay. Do you know if you received it?
Answer. No.
Question. You don't know, or you didn't receive it?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. I believe—this December 6th memo as well as the October 18 memo, which I understand you don't recollect, but do you recall there was a reference on both of them that Senator Paul Simon and Senator Conrad had supported Mr. Huang. Do you recall any vital communications you received from either of those Senators regarding Mr. Huang?
Answer. No.
We received hundreds if not thousands of congressional recommendations for candidates, 99.9 percent of which I would never see.
Question. Do you recall if anyone ever called you up there, made a phone call or anything, that left an impression on you from any congressional or Senate source?
Answer. On behalf of John Huang?
Question. Yes.
Answer. No.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Make this December 6 memo Deposition Exhibit Number 12.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–12 was marked for identification.]
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. So by December of 1993, you had moved on to your next position at the White House; is that correct?
Answer. Sort of. Was a position I held from January 20th on, so Personnel was added to what I was previously doing, and I gave up Personnel, just continued to do what I was—my other responsibilities, which was senior adviser.
Question. And that included traveling with the President?
Answer. Well, I traveled throughout the whole time I was Personnel Director, too. I started out with the title Assistant to the President, senior adviser and Director of Presidential Personnel. It was intended that I would start out with the title Assistant to the President and senior adviser. As I indicated earlier, when we were unable to find someone to handle the personnel functions after Dick Riley was appointed Education Secretary, that was added to my portfolio. So in November after the Congress went home, I gave it up.
Question. This is the March 25, 1994 memo to Beth Nolan from Maureen Lindsey, and I understand you are not in the Personnel Office at the time.
Mr. BALLEN. Could the Minority have a copy, please?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you know who Maureen Lindsey is?
Answer. No.
Question. No relation?
Answer. No relation.
Question. Okay, and this memo is regarding the results of follow-up interview with John Huang, candidate for Deputy Assistant Secretary, East Asia and Pacific International Trade Administration, Commerce.
So you did not see this document?
Page 884 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Answer. No.
Question. Were you aware of any of the information about Mr. Huang that was relayed in this document at any time, in particular anything relating to deportation proceedings?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay, or anything relating to any tax problems?
Answer. No.
Question. So—after you left the Personnel Office, do you recall ever hearing anything about John Huang again in terms of his position or his hiring at Commerce?
Answer. No.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay, make that Deposition Exhibit Number 13.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–13 was marked for identification.].
Question. This is a document from the White House, EOP 10384 through 10401, which is titled ''Memorandum for Prospective Appointees,'' from Bernard Nussbaum, counsel to the President. And then it has a data statement questionnaire attached to it, which John Huang has filled out and signed at the bottom, and it's dated 12-22-93.
Were there any transition duties that you had as—when you left Personnel, were you still involved in any way with seeing any documents or anything in the December time frame?
Answer. No.
Question. Is this generally—do you recall this form being something that was used when things moved on to the Counsel's Office after it had been approved in your office?
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Answer. Yes. Well, I knew they sent a form, and I probably have seen this packet not filled out by anyone, but I don't know of anyone in Personnel who saw—I don't believe—I don't know of anyone in Personnel who saw that information that came back came back to the Counsel's Office and not back to our office.
Question. So if this form has a date of 12-22-93, and it's signed by John Huang, would this—you would have filled this form out for the Counsel's Office by that date—this wasn't something he filled out for your office?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. Or would have filled out for the Personnel Office?
Answer. I believe this is something he would have filled out for the Counsel's Office. It's part of their vetting process.
Question. And if he was filling out forms for the Counsel's Office, would that mean he would have been signed off for the Personnel Office at that point?
Answer. He would have been—yes, assuming that there's no vetting problems. That means he would have been signed off for by us—signed off on by us.
Question. And were you aware of any vetting problems about Mr. Huang?
Answer. No.
Question. In either the Personnel Office or the Counsel's Office?
Answer. Again, I don't have any recollection. It is clear, at least from Mr. Christopherson's testimony, it would appear that he raised with me the possibility that he was doing this fund-raiser and whether we should move forward with an appointment while the fund-raiser was pending. Again, according to Gary, he and I had that discussion. I don't recall that discussion—you know, if that is a, quote/unquote, vetting problem, then apparently I was familiar with it at the time.
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Mr. BALLEN. Are we going to mark this?
Ms. COMSTOCK. No, not that exhibit.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I think earlier we had discussed Mr. Riady coming back to meet with the President for a photo op in the spring of 1993. I believe the date actually was April 13, 1993, the records we've obtained from the White House. This is a phone message slip to Webb Hubbell from James Riady. It indicates that ''Mr. Riady is at the OEOB. Please call.''
Do you know who number was at that time?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Riady making phone calls to Mr. Hubbell in this time frame—spring of 1993?
Answer. I think—no, the answer to that is no.
Question. I'm sorry, did you have anything you want to add to that?
Answer. The question was did I know at the time that Mr. Riady was making phone calls to Mr. Hubbell? The answer is no.
Question. Did there come a time that you learned that Mr. Riady did get in touch with Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. I think there came a time in the last 6 months that I learned that this phone record existed and that Mr. Riady apparently called Mr. Hubbell from the OEOB.
Question. Okay, but other than that?
Answer. No.
Question. You did not know——
Answer. No.
Question. About him making phone calls from the White House?
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Mr. BALLEN. For the record, how did you learn——
The WITNESS. I think you all probably leaked, the committee probably leaked, the phone records, and it was in the Washington Times.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay, this is GRO 1436, which are records of Mr. Hubbell's phone records that actually, I believe, were discussed at a public hearing in February of 1996 when Mr. Hubbell was asked about work with the Riadys.
Answer. I don't think I knew—I don't think I remembered it from that time frame. I mean——
Question. These are documents that are available to a number of committees for several years.
Answer. Okay.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Mark that Deposition Exhibit Number 14.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–14 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. This is another phone record of Webb Hubbell's from 1993. Mr. Hubbell's—received a call from James Riady and Mark Grobmyer. Do you know Mr. Grobmyer?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of him working with Mr. Riady?
Answer. In this time frame—I'm not sure what this time frame is.
Question. Actually—these are '92 and '93. It doesn't have 1993 on the date, but we do have a complete set of these, and these are from 1993——
Answer. The answer to that, I think, is no.
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Question. Mr. Hubbell was not at the Justice Department in 1994?
Answer. Right. The answer is I don't believe I knew Mark Grobmyer was working with Mr. Riady in 1993.
Question. Okay. Did there come a time when you did learn that Mr. Grobmyer was working with Mr. Riady?
Answer. Again, in the course of this investigation since, I've learned that Mr. Grobmyer either did or was trying to do some work with Mr. Riady.
Question. You had no knowledge prior to that?
Answer. I don't think so, no.
Mr. BALLEN. Again, this is something you learned from press accounts?
The WITNESS. Yeah, probably, or congressional testimony, or something like that.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Good morning, Congressman Waxman. At this time if you would like to ask any questions?
Mr. WAXMAN. I'll let you proceed. I want to hear how the tone is of this questioning, whether you're getting to the issues that are important, because I'm getting reports that a lot of these depositions are wandering in an unfocused way. But I'll sit in anyway.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Thank you. If at any time you would like to ask questions, please let me know, and we'll stop and allow you to have the floor.
Mr. WAXMAN. Okay.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay, make this Deposition Exhibit Number 15.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–15 was marked for identification.].
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Did there come a time when you learned that Mr. Hubbell was doing work for the Lippo Group after he left the Justice Department?
Answer. I'm not sure what the answer to that is. There was a time that I was told that someone thought Mr. Hubbell was doing work for the Lippo Group or for the Riadys.
Question. And who was that someone?
Answer. It was probably Doug Buford.
Question. And what did Mr. Buford tell you?
Answer. Well, it related to the list of people to go to—from Arkansas to go to Indonesia at the time that the President was going to Indonesia in November of 1994. I had been given a list that included a group of Arkansans and also included Mr. Hubbell's name on it. I believe I asked why Webb's name was on there, and I believe I was told that his name was on there because he was doing some work for him.
Question. Okay, and who was Doug Buford?
Answer. Doug Buford is a former law partner of mine with the firm of Wright, Lindsey and Jennings in Little Rock, Arkansas.
Question. And does Mr. Buford also do work for the Lippo Group?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And what type of work does he do for them?
Answer. I have no idea.
Question. Do you know how long your former law firm has represented the Lippo Group?
Answer. I believe since I left, but I don't know when they began to represent him.
Question. And while you were there, you had no knowledge of the Lippo Group being represented by Wright, Lindsey and Jennings?
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Answer. I don't believe so. We did do work for Worthen Bank and Trust Company, and at one time the Riadys had an interest in Worthen Bank and Trust Company, but I don't believe that we—I don't remember or recall our law firm doing work for either the Riadys directly or the Lippo Group while I was there.
Question. So you yourself did not do any work for the Lippo Group at any time while you were at Wright, Lindsey and Jennings?
Answer. Other than I did labor work for Worthen.
Question. Okay, and this is a September 21, l994 memo to John Huang from Joe Hanna regarding the Arkansas delegation list.
Is this the list that you were referring to regarding the trip to Jakarta in November of '94?
Answer. I don't believe so.
Question. Okay. Have you ever seen this list before?
Answer. I don't believe so.
Question. Okay. This was produced to us by the White House. It's EOP 20112, and then there is another copy of it, which is also—just attached here, which was 20359, both documents from the White House.
Do you recall John Huang giving you any such list?
Answer. No, not to me. I believe I learned it through a memo from Marsha Scott.
Question. You learned about the Arkansas delegation from a memo from Marsha Scott?
Answer. I believe so, yes.
Question. And could you tell us about that?
Answer. I believe at some point Marsha Scott sent maybe Mack McLarty and I a memo indicating that there is going to be a group of Arkansans who were going to attend the Asian Pacific Economic Conference. Shortly thereafter Mack and I, maybe Marsha, met, decided, concluded, that we didn't think it was a good idea, and I took on the responsibility of trying to stop it. I called Doug Buford at some point asking what he knew about it. We talked about it. I told him I didn't think it was a good idea. He relayed that back to the Riadys, and in effect it was canceled.
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Question. The list that you saw from Marsha Scott, was that shorter or longer than this list?
Answer. Shorter than this one.
Question. Okay. Do you know how Marsha Scott had made up her list?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know if she had talked to Mr. Buford.
Answer. No, I doubt if she talked to Mr. Buford, but I don't know how she did it.
Question. When she came to you, did you have any idea how she learned about this?
Answer. No.
Question. She never told you where the idea came from?
Answer. If she did, I don't recall. But, I mean, she just had a list of people that she said were planning to—Arkansans—who were planning to attend the APEC conference. You know, how she got that list or how she learned about the list, I don't——
Question. And what was her position at the time in the fall of '94?
Answer. Probably still head of White House Correspondents, probably—'94—oh, no, I don't know if she was still head of White House Correspondents then. She may have been in—I don't know.
Question. Okay. Do you know who had tasked her to work on this or how she got to work on it?
Answer. I don't think anybody tasked her. I think what she was asking was to be a part of it. I think she wanted to go and sort of supervise the Arkansans who were going to be there. So I think it was her way of trying to include herself into the trip.
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Question. But you have no knowledge of how she heard about the trip?
Answer. No.
Question. I mean, heard about the Arkansas delegation?
Answer. No.
Mr. BALLEN. It's been asked and answered now three times.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you know whose handwriting is on this document?
Answer. I'm not a handwriting expert.
Question. I'm just wondering if you recognize the handwriting.
Answer. I believe it's Mack's—McLarty's.
Question. Do you recall Mr. McLarty ever giving you a list or sharing a list with you of the Arkansas delegation?
Answer. No, I had a meeting with Mr. McLarty in which we discussed Arkansans going. I don't remember him sharing a list with me.
Question. And that meeting was with McLarty and Marsha Scott?
Answer. I told you I didn't remember whether Marsha Scott was there. I knew it was Mike and I, and Marsha Scott may have——
Question. Do you know if anybody else was present at that meeting?
Answer. I don't recall—no, could be, but I don't recall.
Question. When—you had said when you talked to Doug Buford, you told him it was a bad idea to have this list of people come?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And——
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Mr. BALLEN. Again for the record, not this list, but in terms of the exhibit before the witness——
Mr. MURPHY. A group of Arkansans.
The WITNESS. Correct.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And did you have a correction of the group that was going to be going, who it was?
Answer. I believe on Marsha's memo there listed a group of people who were going or—you know, at some point I had a list of people who were going, including—people on this list, and it had Pryor on it, and it had the Governor on it, it had Grobmyer, it had a good number of the people who were on this list. But I don't think it had my wife's name on it, for example. You know.
Question. And your wife is here as number 14; is that correct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Okay. Do you know why—I mean, you said the list that you saw did include—I'm sorry—I don't think we have that of Marsha Scott's, do you?
Answer. I don't have it.
Question. We haven't seen it, so I don't know, so I'm sorry we're working off this one which we received from the White House. I'm not familiar with the one from Marsha Scott.
Do you know why, for example, Governor Tucker was included in this delegation?
Mr. MURPHY. Objection. He doesn't even know who formulated the group.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
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Question. Did you have any discussion about Mr. Tucker being—Governor Tucker being included in the delegation?
Answer. Yes, because—no. I mean, I asked whether Mr. Tucker was going. I asked whether Senator Pryor was going. My attitude about the delegation was different if they were going to go. If they wanted to head a delegation of Arkansans to go to Indonesia, who am I to tell them they can't do that? I learned in talking with Mr. Buford that it was unlikely that either of them were going, you know, which again reinforced my view that this was not a good idea.
Question. What was your understanding of who was going to go then, if it wasn't——
Answer. I wrote a memo, and I went through—you know, I don't have it, but I went through the people who we talked about and who we took off the list and who was still on the list.
Question. This is an undated memo; is that the memo referred to?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And this is a memo to Mack McLarty and John Podesta from Bruce Lindsey—is that your signature on the ''from'' line?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And it's re: Arkansas delegation to APEC.
So this was the memo that you were referring to?
Answer. Yes.
You know, again, I had a list that when—in talking with Doug and with John Tisdale, we—you know, these people appeared to have a reason for being there, as I tried to explain, for the most part. The rest of the people did not seem to have a reason for going. I wasn't going to deny anybody the right to go to Indonesia if they had a legitimate reason for being there. I just didn't think that there should be a large delegation of Arkansans that the Riadys knew over there because they believed the President would like to see some, you know, friendly faces. And so these were the people who in the end had some reason, in my judgment, for being in Indonesia during the Conference.
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Question. And in this memo, you begin it saying, ''I spoke with John Tisdale and Doug Buford.''
Do you recall speaking with John Tisdale?
Answer. I believe—I think I called Doug. I think John was in the room and they put me on the conference line, speakerphone.
Question. So Mr. Tisdale also was at Wright, Lindsey & Jennings?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And to your knowledge, does Mr. Tisdale also work on Lippo matters?
Answer. I have no idea.
Question. Do you know approximately when you wrote this memo? There is not a date on it?
Answer. No. Obviously, it was before we went to Indonesia. But I don't know. I would say late October, but I don't know that for a fact.
Question. Late sometime in October or late October 1994?
Answer. Right.
Question. Okay. This is for the November 9th Jakarta trip; is that correct?
Answer. Right.
Question. Do you know why you memo it to John Podesta?
Answer. John may have been in this meeting that I had with Mack. Again, I don't know why.
Question. Do you recall discussing this issue with Mr. Podesta at all?
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Answer. No, not in—no. It doesn't mean I didn't. I just don't recall.
Question. And is that Mr.—I'm sorry, on the right-hand corner there, do you recognize the handwriting on the document?
Answer. The ''to Leon from McLarty''?
Question. Yes.
Answer. No, I don't.
Question. Do you recognize the handwriting on the bottom of the page?
Answer. That appears to be Mack's handwriting.
Question. Okay.
Mr. WAXMAN. Counsel, I just want to observe that you asked a lot of questions pertaining to this memo before it was presented to Mr. Lindsey. Might this proceeding be a little bit more expeditious if you gave the document and then asked the questions about the document to Mr. Lindsey or any other witnesses have a chance to review it and respond to it?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Well, I was asking about the previous memo and it became apparent that general sentence talked about this memo, and I provided it to him so we could discuss it. We were trying to establish this was a document that was in the White House, which apparently no one knows how it got in there, from Mr. Huang.
Why don't I go ahead and make this previous September 21st, 1994, memo Deposition Exhibit Number 16, and make Mr. Lindsey's memo Deposition Exhibit Number 17.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–16 was marked for identification.]
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–17 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. So the list of people that you have on this list——
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Mr. MURPHY. Exhibit 17.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Exhibit 17, on your memo we're talking about now, is it your recollection that you got this from the list that Marsha Scott gave you, or did you independently come up with the list?
Answer. I don't know—in discussing with Doug who was going, we walked through all the people that they thought were going and I would ask, why is that person going, what is he doing, what role did he play, and in the end came up with—I mean, you know, frankly Doug may have a broader list. But in the end, these were people that we—I understood had a reason for being there other than just going.
Question. The September 21st memo is from Joe Hanna. Do you know Joe Hanna?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you have any knowledge of Joe Hanna is an employee at Lippo. Does that assist you at all in recalling who Joe Hanna is?
Answer. No, I don't know Joe Hanna.
Question. And do you have any knowledge of Mr. Huang being in touch with Lippo employees in connection with the Jakarta APEC trip in the fall of 1994?
Answer. No.
Question. So you have no knowledge as to why Mr. Huang would be receiving a list from Mr. Hanna?
Answer. No.
Question. And the September 21st memo indicates it was prepared by James Riady and Joe Giroir.
When you talked with Mr. Buford, were you—did he mention anything about Mr. Riady or Mr. Giroir working on a list?
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Answer. Well, I always understood it was a Riady list.
Question. Because they were going to be paying for the delegation to go over there; is that correct?
Answer. That's my understanding, yes.
Back up a little bit. There was a delegation from Arkansas that went to the '93 APEC conference in Seattle. It was headed by Jim Guy Tucker. The purpose of that delegation was to try to develop relations with some of these Asian countries to try to bring business to Arkansas. It acted, for the most part, independent of the President or the President's being there. They simply used that as an opportunity to make a pitch for Arkansas on behalf of these Asian countries.
Again, you know, originally when we got a list with Jim Guy Tucker on it and David Meyer's name appeared, could be something similar. As I found out they were not planning to go, then it became more problematic, in my view, as to why we were sending a delegation if there was nobody sort of really heading the delegation. So again, you say the Riadys were going to pay for it. I think that was always an assumption. I don't know if I knew that.
Question. So I was asking you, in your understanding——
Answer. I, frankly, don't know—I knew the Riadys were encouraging the delegation. I don't know whether or not they intended to pay for the delegation or whether every person who was going to go was going to pay their own way. So, again, I don't know the answer to that.
Question. And you had mentioned the fall '93 APEC meeting, so I just wanted to show you a memo from that time frame. This is a September 7th, 1993, memo to you from Maria Haley. And, then, is it your testimony, then, you attended that APEC meeting in '93 also?
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Answer. Yes.
Question. Do you recall the Riadys being at that meeting?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And Governor Tucker was also at that meeting, correct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Were you aware of Nora and Gene Lum being at that APEC conference?
Answer. I don't think so.
Question. Do you have any knowledge about them being represented by John Tisdale?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And when did you learn of that?
Answer. Since they got into trouble. I mean, since, you know, it was in the press that John represented them.
Question. Other than press accounts, you had no knowledge of that?
Answer. I think John has told me that he represented the Lums.
Question. Do you recall when he told you about that?
Answer. No. I think it has been, again, the last year or so, but I don't recall exactly when.
Mr. WAXMAN. Counsel, I'm going to have to leave. But I would like to ask a few questions.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WAXMAN:
Question. Mr. Lindsey, first of all, let me thank you for being hear for this deposition. I know it is an intrusion on your time.
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Politicians often refer to each other as ''good friends.'' As a matter of fact, the protocol of the House often requires us, in order to not say anything to the contrary, we refer to each other as ''my long-time, good friend.''
Do you have any reason to believe that President Clinton's description of John Huang as a ''good and long-time friend'' in 1996 was anything other than a conventional expression of gratitude to one of his many dedicated political supporters?
Answer. No, sir. I mean, I knew that they knew each other and had come into contact with each other over the years. And, as you know, Bill Clinton makes friends fairly easily. But, you know, I did not know that his relationship with John Huang was any different than his relationships with hundreds of other people who have also been supporters of his in the past and who he has come in contact with through various political and governmental occasions.
Question. It is just not unusual for politicians to talk about others as ''good friends'' when they are acquaintances or supporters?
Answer. Right.
Question. I know my good friend, Chairman Dan Burton, would want me to have it clarified for the record.
Mr. WAXMAN. Thank you, Counsel. I'm going to have to go to my office and meet with some other people, but I'll try to come back. Thank you.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. In your memo, Exhibit 17, when you say the list has been whittled down, do you know who was involved in that whittling process besides yourself?
Answer. I think Doug Buford and John Tisdale. I mean, I would ask them—they would tell me who was going. I would ask them why they are going, what role they have, what responsibility, why are they on the list. And as we got to people that we couldn't—who didn't have a role, I suggested that they not go.
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Question. And do you know what Mr. Grobmyer's reason for going was?
Answer. Yeah, listed here he is the chairman of the international business community of the Little Rock Chamber of Commerce.
Question. Aside from that, were you aware of his business dealings with the Riadys or Asian businesses?
Answer. Again, I don't think I knew of his relationship with the Riadys, if he had any sort of business relationship at the time. But I did know that he was active in this international business center that they had in Little Rock.
Question. And you wrote that Doug, I guess meaning Doug Buford, who negotiated the revised list with James Riady, asked about list status and that he clearly would like to go but will do whatever we want.
Who was ''we'' there?
Answer. The White House.
Question. And what was he told?
Answer. He did not go.
Question. And was that——
Mr. BALLEN. I'm sorry, for the record, who is ''he''?
The WITNESS. Doug Buford did not go.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Was he asked not to go by the White House?
Answer. I think I suggested to him, since I couldn't, you know—I was Chairman Elect or President Elect of the Chamber, but I think I told him I thought it better he didn't go.
Question. And then the next line there says, ''he believes his presence will help to control the group.''
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Do you know what you meant by how he was going to control the group?
Answer. I think he—you know, ''control'' I put in quotes. I think he thought he would be able to help, sort of make sure that they did go where they were supposed to go, didn't try to intrude upon the President's time.
As you notice, I say that they don't expect to do anything with the President. People can have that sort of understanding on one level and not on another level, and I think he thought he could make sure that they did not try to establish meetings or, you know, interfere with what the President's official responsibilities were while he was there.
Question. Then, as you said in the next paragraph, it says, ''delegation does not expect to do anything with the President, but would like to be invited to the American reception.''
Do you know if they were, indeed, invited?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. Do you know if they were invited to any speeches or any events?
Answer. I think they were probably invited to whatever public events—for example, Systematic and Entergy, the Department of Commerce had some sort of a big—I want to call it affair, but it wasn't, sort of where they showed Arkansas—not Arkansas, American companies and products and the President gave a speech there.
My guess is that any Arkansans who were there were invited to that, but I don't know that for a fact.
Mr. BALLEN. Do you know for a fact who, if any, of these individuals actually went?
The WITNESS. I remember seeing Mark Grobmyer, not in Indonesia, but in the Philippines. So I don't know whether he went to Indonesia or not. We went to the Philippines before that. Paul Berry, I don't believe went. Someone from University of Arkansas Medical Sciences, I don't believe it was Alan or Gene Suggs, the president of the system, but I think it may have been Harry—and I can't think of Harry's last name——
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Ward?
Answer. Ward, who was head of the medical school, went.
Question. Now, Harry Ward was on the September 21st, 1994, memo?
Answer. Okay. I think I may have gone and Alan and Gene Suggs did not go. I don't know—I don't recall seeing the Cranfords. And I don't know who the representatives from Entergy or Systematic would have been. So I think only two or three at most of these people actually went.
The people that I do remember going were directly related with this sort of sister school relationship between the University of Arkansas School of Medical Science and some Indonesian medical school.
Mr. BALLEN. Thank you.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Were you aware Mr. Hubbell went on the trip at all?
Answer. I did not.
Question. Were you aware of Mr. Hubbell previously going to Jakarta on the trip in the fall of 1994?
Answer. Again, not at the time. I think I learned that later that he went over there at one point again for press reports.
Question. Did you have discussions about whether or not Mr. Hubbell should be included on the trip?
Answer. Yes. I asked Mr. Buford why Mr. Hubbell was on the list, and I believe Mr. Buford told me that he thought he was doing some work for the Riadys. The extent of my knowledge at any point that Webb did any work for the Riadys, and again that's not—I don't know—at the time I didn't know that he had done any work. I just know that Doug said he thought he was on a list because it was his understanding that he thought he was doing some work for the Riadys.
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Question. Do you recall relaying that to Mr. McLarty or others at the White House?
Answer. I don't think so. I think, since he was not on the revised list, I don't think we talked about who wasn't going. I think we talked about who was going and why.
Question. Do you recall if he was on Marsha Scott's list?
Answer. I believe he may have been, but I don't think—I don't recall.
Question. And have you seen the Marsha Scott list recently? Have you had an opportunity to review that list?
Answer. I've seen it sometime in the last year. I mean, I don't know what ''recently.'' I have not reviewed it in the last month or month and a half.
Question. So that's a document that you've seen at the White House?
Answer. Yes.
Mr. MURPHY. I think we saw it in the documents produced by the White House to the Senate.
The WITNESS. Yes.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I apologize if we've missed it.
Mr. MURPHY. It may have at his deposition. I just don't remember.
The WITNESS. Could be. It was a memo saying there was this delegation going. I am almost sure it listed some of the people in the delegation, though I could be wrong about that, then saying I'd like to go and sort of be responsible for these people.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recall what Marsha Scott was told about the delegation?
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Answer. Marsha apparently received a copy of my memo. I don't know that. I don't know.
Question. Do you know if she went on the trip?
Answer. She did not go on the trip.
Question. You don't know of any discussions with her about somebody telling her ''you're not going to go on the trip''?
Answer. I may have told her she wasn't going on the trip, but I don't recall.
Question. Do you recall discussing this with Leon Panetta?
Answer. No.
Question. Or with John Angel in his office?
Answer. Who?
Question. Is it John Angel?
Ms. REMINGTON. Angel.
The WITNESS. Angel? No.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And Skip Rutherford, do you recall if you discussed it with Skip Rutherford?
Answer. No. Did I discuss it with Skip?
Question. Yes. I mean, that's Mr. McLarty's handwriting on there, so I'm asking if you recall discussing it with Skip Rutherford?
Answer. No. I don't see Skip's name on it. Is 4 Skip?
Question. That's number 4, yes.
Answer. I don't remember discussing it with Skipper.
Question. Do you know if he went on the trip?
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Answer. He did not.
Question. Do you know why Mr. McLarty wanted Skip Rutherford's input on this whole Arkansas delegation?
Answer. No. Is Skip on the longer list?
Question. No.
Answer. No, I do not know.
Question. You had mentioned earlier, you had noted that your wife's name was on this list.
Did any list that you see have your wife's name on it?
Answer. No.
Question. And were you aware of the Riadys ever approaching you or discussing with you taking your wife on this trip?
Answer. No. The answer to that is, no one ever approached me about Bev going on this trip.
Question. And she doesn't do any work for Lippo or the Riadys or anything like that?
Answer. No. She, at this time, was head of a Department, State Department, Department of Arkansas Heritage.
Question. The last paragraph in your memos reads that ''James Riady and his father would like to have an opportunity to visit briefly with President Clinton during the visit.''
Did that occur?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And when did that occur?
Answer. They came by the room for about 5 minutes before we went to some event.
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Question. Who came?
Answer. James and his father, and I think both wives, but I don't know.
Question. Both wives?
Answer. Wives, both Mochtar Riady's wife and James Riady's wife.
Question. And they came by the President's hotel?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And you were there?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And could you describe that meeting?
Answer. It was just, ''Hello. How are you?'' And then they said a prayer.
Question. And that was all that occurred?
Answer. Yeah. I don't even know if they ever sat down. I think it was just right—sort of right there they stood around, they talked about old times, you know, about when they had met before, and then Mr. Riady—Mochtar Riady is apparently a very religious man; and as they were about to leave, he wanted to say a prayer. So they said a prayer.
Question. And was anyone else at the meeting?
Answer. Mrs. Clinton may have been there. I don't recall.
Question. And, so, it was you and the President and Mrs. Clinton?
Answer. Maybe, and the Riadys.
Question. And this says, ''We should try to schedule a 15-minute meeting for them.''
Do you recall, was this a scheduled meeting?
Answer. Scheduled in the sense that we were going to try to do it when we were there. It was not scheduled in the sense that it was on the schedule. It was during right before the President was to leave for something. And I don't think it lasted 15 minutes. I think it lasted less than that. And they, basically, came by the hotel room as the Clintons were about to leave either for a dinner or meeting or some other event.
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Question. But do you recall if it was planned to have them come by, who was involved in planning that?
Answer. No. My—no.
Question. Presumably, the President's scheduler would have to have something to do with that?
Answer. No, I doubt it.
Question. I'm not sure how this works when you're in a foreign country, but if someone were coming to visit the President in the White House, they would have to go through some procedures in getting in and getting waved in.
Is that not the case when he travels?
Answer. No. What would happen most likely—and I'm speculating because I don't recall—is Mack and I would have talked about it after this meeting; and if he agreed, which I assumed he probably did, that, you know, we should do it, I probably would have told the President at some point that, before you leave one time, I think, you know, we will——
Back up. The Riadys wanted the Clintons to go to their house, and that was not going to happen. The President was not going to go to the Riadys' house while he was there. And, so, I think I probably said to James one time, look, the President is scheduled to leave at 6:00 to go X. Why don't you and your dad come by at ten till. I would have then told the Secret Service that the Riadys were going to come by so they would have known that they were coming up, would have let them come up. I would have met them in the hallway and made sure the Clintons were ready and knocked on the door, and they would have visited.
Question. Would that be all that was involved? Secret Service doesn't have to run a name check?
Answer. No.
Question. Or do anything you normally do here? Can you just go to the Secret Service and say ''someone is going to come up to see the President. It's okay''?
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Answer. ''Okay, let them up''.
Question. And then you would escort them to see the President, would that be the normal procedure?
Answer. That would be the normal—''normal'' is not the right word. That would be a procedure on something like this.
Question. So that wouldn't appear on any type of public record?
Answer. No.
Question. Or any type of record that anybody keeps of the schedule?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay.
Mr. MURPHY. Is the memo Mr. Lindsey wrote Exhibit 17?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yes.
Mr. MURPHY. And are you marking the Maria Haley to Bruce Lindsey memo of September——
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yeah, I'll go ahead and make that Deposition Exhibit Number 18.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–18 was marked for identification.]
Mr. MURPHY. Okay.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Were you aware of March Fong Eu being on the trip to Jakarta?
Answer. No.
Question. This is a document from Hip Hing Holdings to James Riady from Ambassador March Fong Eu, September 30th, 1994. It begins by saying, ''I look forward to seeing you in Jakarta.''
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Second paragraph, midway through the second paragraph, says, ''In the meantime, I am asking Bruce Lindsey and another couple of my White House contacts to get word to the White House staffers working on the conference that I will be there and to see if any name could be added to the official American delegation list.''
Answer. I don't recall that document. I don't believe she was part of the official delegation.
Question. Do you recall her contacting you or anybody that you were working with about——
Answer. No.
Question. Including her in some type of delegation?
Answer. I don't recall, no.
Question. Were there any other events in the fall of '94 in Jakarta that she would have been—I'm trying to determine if there is any other event in Jakarta that she may have been referring here to that the President was involved in?
Answer. No. I assume—I don't know dates of the APEC conference, but I would assume this was the APEC conference.
Question. And then the fifth paragraph here, second from the bottom, discusses spending a few days in Bali.
Were you aware of Mr. Riady having people stay in Bali as some part of this delegation?
Answer. I know that the Arkansans that he wanted to take, he wanted to, then after the APEC, he wanted to take them to Bali.
Question. And do you know if that occurred?
Answer. No, I don't believe it did. The delegation didn't occur.
Question. There's been reported a trip that Mr. Hubbell went on to Bali. Is that a separate trip, then, in the fall of '94? Was this a separate one from this, if you have any knowledge of it?
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Answer. Mr. Hubbell did not go on the APEC trip. So, yes, it would have to be separate from the APEC trip.
Mr. BALLEN. If, in fact, you knew whether or not he went.
The WITNESS. If he went. He was not part of the APEC trip, and he was not there during the APEC conference that I know of.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Riady taking any group of people to Bali after this conference?
Answer. No.
Question. That was something you had originally heard about in terms of this bigger group?
Answer. Right, when he was going to do this bigger group, they were going to go to the conference and then go to Bali. The group didn't occur. It didn't happen. So, as far as I know, nobody went to Bali.
Question. And what was the purpose of going to Bali?
Answer. I think there's supposed to be a wonderful golf course. I think it was fun and relaxing.
Question. And then I believe you testified you didn't know if he was going to pay for it, but your understanding was you thought he was going to?
Answer. The answer is, you know, you asked a question about whether or not he was taking his delegation. I was trying to answer it by saying, I don't know whether he was taking this delegation or whether he was simply inviting the delegation and they were going to be expected to pay their own way. I just don't know the answer to that.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Make this Deposition Exhibit Number 19. 18 was the '93 APEC meeting.
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[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–19 was marked for identification.]
Mr. MURPHY. Ms. Comstock, do you have any thoughts about lunch?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Well, I guess you've given me the 3:30 time line, but I don't think we're going to be able to finish. We're not going to get that through without lunch. I'd be happy to break for lunch, and if you can give me time here.
Mr. MURPHY. Can we go to 5:00 or 6:00?
The WITNESS. Personally, it is better for me to skip lunch and get through so I can go back to work.
Mr. BALLEN. Maybe at some point we can take a 10-minute break.
The WITNESS. Yeah, that's fine.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Were you aware of Susan Thomases doing any work for the Lippo Group or for the Riadys?
Answer. No.
Question. You have no knowledge of her being on any trips paid for by the Riadys or entertaining any ideas like that?
Answer. No. First time I ever heard it. Haven't even read that one.
Question. Returning to Mr. Hubbell, when did you first learn of Mr. Hubbell's legal problems with the Rose Law Firm?
Mr. MURPHY. You mean legal problems of any sort?
Ms. COMSTOCK. With the Rose Law Firm.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Why don't we make it of any sort, since some of them extend beyond the firm.
Answer. I don't know the answer to that. I think—I'm trying to remember whether in January or February—I think I first learned about it in the press. So I'm trying to remember when the first story was that he was having some sort of discussions with his law partners about legal matters. But I think that was the first I learned about it.
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Question. This is one of the first extensive articles on it. It is March 2nd, 1994, in the Post: ''Law Firm Probing Hubbell. Billing Irregularities Alleged. Clinton Denies Wrongdoing.''
Answer. Yeah, I don't know if this is the one that I knew about it. But I think I first learned about it through a press report.
Question. Prior to the press reports, had you heard from any Arkansas legal colleagues about any rumblings about Mr. Hubbell having problems with the firm?
Answer. I'm having trouble sequencing the time. At some point, I learned that Webb had represented his father-in-law and his brother-in-law in a matter on a contingency basis, which they lost, and that there was a disagreement among the firm and Webb as to what the terms of the contingency arrangement was.
I don't remember—I can't tell you today whether I learned that before—before this or after this.
Mr. BALLEN. ''This'' being the newspaper?
The WITNESS. ''This'' being the article.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Just to give you a time line, Special Counsel Fisk had been appointed in late January '94. Then there were stories about documents at the Rose Firm being shredded and there were these two young paralegals who had been—it would have been in early February '94, and then there were the matters with Roger Altman in mid February 1994.
Does that help place in time when you learned of Mr. Hubbell's problems——
Answer. No.
Question. Whether it was before or after these events?
Mr. BALLEN. I'll object. These are unrelated. You're stating events, and we can talk about other events, but why these would help with Mr. Hubbell——
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Ms. COMSTOCK. In terms of special counsel being appointed. He very quickly began looking into Mr. Hubbell's billings and things.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I'm wondering if, following the appointment of special counsel, if you heard anything from Arkansas?
Answer. No. In fact, I think the premise—I don't know when the special counsel began looking in Mr. Hubbell's billings. The question of shredding of documents didn't have anything to do with Webb's billings; it had to do with, you know, Whitewater-related documents. And Roger Altman certainly didn't have anything to do with Webb.
Now, again, I don't know whether or not just through general discussion in Arkansas or among the Arkansas bar that I knew that there was general unhappiness about Webb's handling of this lawsuit for his father in terms of how much it cost and who bore the cost or whether these stories came out and later I heard those stories. Nothing you've said helps me with the sequencing of whether I heard about it beforehand or after.
Question. Okay. Then directing your attention to the fourth paragraph here, it does mention that the pace of the Rose Firm's inquiry has sped up in recent weeks as the law firm was subpoenaed in a criminal investigation by Special Counsel Robert Fisk, who was investigating President Clinton's Whitewater land venture.
It just discusses generally that the Rose Law Firm was being subpoenaed, I guess, at some time prior to March 2nd?
Answer. Yeah. But if I recall, those subpoenas and the documents didn't relate to Webb's problem, they relate——
Question. No, it doesn't indicate that here. I'm just wondering whether that refreshes your recollection whether you had heard anything in the context of Mr. Fisk subpoenaing documents from the firm that these other matters might arise in the course of him looking at the firm in general?
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Answer. No.
Question. So your first recollection of hearing about Mr. Hubbell's problems, then, is from the press?
Answer. No, I can't say that.
Mr. BALLEN. He's testified three times to this now.
Mr. MURPHY. Objection. He testified that, either from some conversations with Arkansas lawyers or from press inquiry, he heard something about it.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Of a billing dispute.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you have a recollection of any person talking with you about this when you first learned of it?
Answer. Not when I first learned of it, no.
Question. Did there come a time when you discussed this with people at the White House?
Answer. I don't think so.
Mr. BALLEN. Is there a time frame?
The WITNESS. I don't think so. I mean, I assume at some time, especially around the time he resigned, that we discussed it. But I don't think—I mean, again, I don't remember talking to anybody at the White House. I'm sure we probably talked about this article once we saw it. But I don't have any specific recollection of that. And I certainly don't remember talking to anybody before it was generally known.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. At this time, were you responding to Whitewater inquiries, in general, with the press?
Answer. Depends on what ''this time'' is.
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Question. March of '94?
Answer. John and I probably—both John Podesta and I both were probably doing it around then. After the Independent Counsel was appointed and after and around the time that I got a grand jury subpoena based upon the so-called RTC meeting, I quit handling it altogether. Now, I think that's slightly later in March, if I recall.
Question. I think that was March 4th.
Answer. Well, that's close to March 2nd. After I became involved in that, I quit handling press inquiries. So this is around the time that I was transitioning out of it.
Question. Between March 2nd and March 14th, which is the date that Mr. Hubbell announced his resignation, do you recall any conversations you had with the President about Mr. Hubbell?
Mr. MURPHY. You can answer that ''yes'' or ''no'' just to start off.
The WITNESS. I don't recall, no.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recall if you had any conversations with the President?
Answer. Again, if I was around the press, around the time of this article, I think he and I would have talked about it. But I don't remember whether we did.
Question. You have no general recollections of discussing Mr. Hubbell with the President prior to his resignation, then?
Answer. Again, you know, around the time these stories came out, if I was around the President, I would have said, ''Did you see the stories'' and we could have had a general conversation about it. Do I recall those conversations? No. I mean, it is only—again, I'm not recalling anything. I'm just saying that if, on the day of the Washington Post story, I saw them, I'm sure I probably said something to him about it.
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Question. You don't recall seeing him or saying anything?
Answer. If I didn't see him, I don't recall, I don't think I ever made a special point of calling him or going to see him to talk about it. But if I was with him and saw him, we probably talked about it.
Question. But you can't recall even generally any conversations?
Mr. BALLEN. Objection. For the record, that's the third time the witness has been asked the question, and he has answered it each time.
The WITNESS. The conversation would have been no more than, you know, ''Did you see the story? What do you think is going to happen?'' You know, I don't know any more than that.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. So the President never asked you to look into anything——
Answer. No.
Question. About Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. No.
Question. Or your opinion on Mr. Hubbell or anything like that that you can recall?
Answer. No. He knew my opinion of Mr. Hubbell.
Question. Had you discussed Mr. Hubbell's legal problems with the President prior to this?
Answer. No.
Question. What do you mean when you say——
Answer. Webb Hubbell is a friend of mine. The President knows that. He is a friend of the President's.
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Question. But did he ever say to you ''we need to look into this'' or anything that led you to believe that there might need to be some evaluation of this matter?
Answer. No.
Mr. BALLEN. Objection. The witness has asked and answered it.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Were you aware of Jim Blair looking into these matters for the President?
Mr. MURPHY. Webb Hubbell matter?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Webb Hubbell?
Answer. No.
Question. Were you aware of Jim Blair being in touch with anybody at the Rose Law Firm about Mr. Hubbell's problems with the firm?
Answer. No.
Question. Were you aware of Jim Blair talking with the President about Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. No. Later I became aware that apparently—and, again, this was through the press or something—that there was two or three conversations on, like, the Friday and Saturday, but I learned that all after the fact.
Question. That there were conversations with whom?
Answer. If I remember right, that Jim Blair and the President had a conversation, that Jim Blair then had a conversation——
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me. Is this from reading the newspaper accounts?
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The WITNESS. Yes. Again, I know no more about that than what is in the press.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Actually, I don't believe Mr. Blair's conversations with the President have been——
Answer. There's been a story somewhere that says, I thought, that said that Jim spoke to the President on, like, the Friday or the Saturday and then maybe spoke to Mr. Hubbell. I think that has been in the press.
Question. And your recollection is—and those are accounts very recently that Mr. Blair said that he had——
Answer. Right.
Question. That told people at the White House?
Answer. Right.
Question. But your understanding was he talked with the President?
Answer. I thought he did, yeah. I thought it was in the story. I'm trying to relate the story. So if it's not in the——
Mr. BALLEN. Mr. Lindsey, if you're trying to relate a story that we can all read, I don't think that serves——
Mr. MURPHY. You're not advancing the committee's inquiry.
The WITNESS. I have no knowledge, then, except what was in the press accounts. And the press accounts are obviously of what Mr. Blair said probably a better indication of what happened than my trying to recall what the press article said.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And at that time did you——
Page 920 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Answer. At what time?
Question. At the time prior to Mr. Hubbell resigning, you had no discussions with Mr. Blair?
Answer. No.
Question. And did you have any discussions with the First Lady about Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. No.
Question. Were there discussions in the counsel's office that you recall about Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. Again, not any sort of an official way. I mean, I may have—you know, I probably would have said something to Cheryl Mills or someone else once the stories were in there. But, again, it would have been talking about what was in the press, not about any sort of independent investigation or independent knowledge.
Question. But you don't recall the President or the First Lady ever expressing any concern to you prior to Mr. Hubbell's resignation?
Answer. About what?
Question. About any problems that he had with the Rose Law Firm?
Answer. I don't remember him expressing it to me, no.
Question. Were you aware of—do you have any knowledge of the First Lady being in touch with anybody at the Rose Law Firm?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you talk to Bill Kennedy about any knowledge he had about what the Rose Law Firm was doing with Mr. Hubbell? Did you ever talk to Bill Kennedy about the Rose Law Firm's actions regarding Mr. Hubbell?
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Answer. I don't believe so. Again, I may have expressed to Bill or Bill may have expressed to me in general, you know, something about all of this. But he never imparted to me information, and I had no information that would not have been publicly reported for the most part.
Question. Because Mr. Kennedy was also a former partner at the Rose Law Firm; is that correct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And so, you never heard about him saying, well, I've talked to so-and-so at the firm and here's what's going on? He never said anything like that to you?
Answer. No. I don't believe so, no.
Question. Did the President ever ask your opinion about whether Mr. Hubbell should resign or not?
Answer. I don't believe so, no.
Question. Did the First Lady ever ask your opinion?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of who—actually, if anyone asked Mr. Hubbell to resign?
Answer. No.
Question. What is your understanding of how Mr. Hubbell came to resign from his Justice Department position?
Answer. He resigned. I don't have any knowledge beyond he resigned.
Question. It is your understanding he just woke up on March 14th and said, ''I'll resign,'' or do you have any knowledge of any of the activities preceding that?
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Answer. I have no knowledge of any of the activities preceding that. I don't know whether he woke up that morning or whether he thought about it the day before.
Question. Do you have any knowledge as to who he talked to about it?
Answer. No.
Question. Did he talk to you about resigning?
Answer. No.
Mr. MURPHY. That's been asked and answered.
The WITNESS. No. I mean, if he had, I would have some knowledge about it. No.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Make this March 2nd article Deposition Exhibit Number 20.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–20 was marked for identification.]
[Witness confers with counsel.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. Are there any matters you wanted to clarify for the record?
Mr. MURPHY. No.
The WITNESS. I don't think so.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you know Amy Stewart, who was in the Rose Law Firm?
Answer. I don't know who she is. I don't know her. I mean, I don't have a relationship with her.
Question. Were you aware of her being at the White House on or around May of 1993?
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Answer. No.
Question. For an extended period of time?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know Jerry Jones from the Rose Law Firm?
Answer. Again, I know him. I don't know him well.
Question. Did you have any knowledge of Mr. Jones or anyone else coming to Mr. Hubbell in 1993 to ask him about problems in the law firm?
Answer. I don't think I knew that in 1993, no.
Question. Did you only learn of that in press accounts recently?
Answer. Yes. I don't know how recently, but yes, press accounts.
Mr. BALLEN. Maybe it would help, for the record, rather than have you testify that when you learned about it in press accounts, simply I think what we're after here is your own personal knowledge. If you don't have any personal knowledge, say ''no''. If you do, say ''yes''.
The WITNESS. That's fine, and I'll be happy to do that. On the other hand, I was told at the beginning that if I knew about it, I should say that I knew about it. I don't—it is a lot easier for me to do that. I don't want to follow your instructions and her directions——
Ms. COMSTOCK. It is also possible that somebody at the White House could have said to Mr. Lindsey, I learned of such and such happening in 1993 and '94, and has imparted that to Mr. Lindsey. And he can tell us that, and that is personal knowledge he has of somebody telling him about these affairs.
The WITNESS. I don't believe anybody at the White House had told me that Mr. Jerry Jones had come to visit Mr. Hubbell. I believe I read it.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Did you ever have any conversations with the President about Mr. Hubbell after the resignation about his legal problems?
Answer. Again, if I did, it was in a very general sort of way, it wasn't—you know, it wasn't instructions from him or my imparting information to him. It would have been two people talking about, you know, ''can you believe it'' and ''isn't it a shame,'' those sorts of conversations.
Question. And that's the entire extent of any discussion——
Answer. Yeah. I'm sorry, go ahead.
Question. That's the only type of conversation you ever had?
Answer. Yeah. We never had a specific conversation about, you know, Webb's legal problems or what to do about them or, you know, what Webb's going to do about them or anything else. It would have been two friends simply talking about a third friend saying, you know, ''it is a shame what's happened to him, it is a shame what's happened to his family. Can you believe it happened? Can you believe he did this,'' that kind of stuff.
Question. This is a March 1994 Washington Post article in which it relates that all 28 partners of the Rose Firm agreed to send a complaint to the Arkansas Supreme Court Committee on Professional Conduct.
Do you recall any general discussion on the fact that the whole firm had sort of united against Mr. Hubbell on issues like that?
Mr. MURPHY. Any conversations with who?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. With the President?
Answer. No.
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Question. Or the First Lady?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you recall any curiosity on the part of the President or the First Lady as to, you know, why all 28 partners of the firm were suing Mr. Hubbell, that they might, just a general curiosity, want to go know why?
Mr. MURPHY. Objection to ''suing''. It doesn't say, I don't think, they were going to sue.
Mr. BALLEN. I'm also going to object, because the witness has already testified that he recalls no conversation——
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'm wondering if he has a general curiosity.
MR. BALLEN. Could I finish my objection, please? Would that be possible? You interrupted me. I was in the middle of a sentence. If the witness testified that he recalls no conversation about it, he stated there was no conversation, why would he recall any curiosity if he already testified there was no conversation?
I'll object to the question as being asked and answered already.
Ms. COMSTOCK. And I'm showing the witness an article from March 19, 1994, certain matters about the firm, and asking if it refreshes his recollection to see if he can recall any sense of curiosity that he recalls, not any particular conversations, but if there was any curiosity as to what was going on with the matters involving the Rose Law Firm.
The WITNESS. Barbara, the problem I'm having is that I don't recall a conversation where he said or I said, ''Can you believe all 28 people did this?'' So if that's what you're asking is did we have a general conversation like ''can you believe everybody did this?'' I don't—I don't recall that.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Given that all 28 members of the firm, partners, had agreed to send this complaint, was there—did that change people's view at the White House that maybe Mr. Hubbell's account, which to that date apparently was just a dispute versus the 28 people, that maybe his account, what he had told you at the White House, wasn't accurate? Was there ever any concern expressed like that in the spring or summer of '94?
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Answer. I do not believe that the fact that all 28 partners signed the ethics complaint ever was a factor in people's views of what had happened caused them to change—caused anyone to change their view as to who was right and who was wrong.
Question. So there was no change——
Mr. MURPHY. Excuse me.
[Witness confers with counsel.]
The WITNESS. At some point around this time, a lawyer in Arkansas named David Matthews contacted me and told me that there was a division within the law firm as to what to do about this and he didn't know which way the law firm was going to go.
David Matthews is a lawyer in northwest Arkansas. And I don't know quite who he was talking to about this, but he indicated to me there was a division. And, you know, so I don't believe, you know, the fact that once a decision by the law firm to do this was signed by all 28. I'd actually be surprised, once the firm had made a decision to file the ethics complaint, that it wouldn't be signed by all 28. I mean, you know, if it was my firm and I was on the side that didn't want to do it and I got out-voted, I think I would be prepared to sign on to it.
So I did not put any stock in the fact that there were 28 persons versus—what is one-half plus one—15 people who signed the ethics complaint. Because I understand from David Matthews that there was a division within the firm as to whether or not they should or shouldn't do this.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And who is David Matthews?
Answer. He's just a lawyer in northwest Arkansas.
Question. So when I asked you about lawyers you may have talked with in Arkansas, David Matthews is a person you may have talked to at some point, but you don't recall?
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Answer. You asked me whether or not I talked to lawyers. I learned about it before the March 2nd event. I do not believe my conversation with David Matthews occurred before the March 2nd event.
Question. You think this occurred after March 2nd?
Answer. I think it occurred around the time that the firm issued the ethics complaint. I think David Matthews indicated to me after these stories were public that people he was talking to inside the firm indicated that there was this big division in the firm as to what to do about this and that they were going to have a meeting to decide what to do and he didn't know which way it would go, whether they would file an ethics complaint or not file an ethics complaint.
Question. Do you recall how this conversation with Mr. Matthews came about?
Answer. I think he called me to tell me that.
Question. Had you reached out to him before that?
Answer. No.
Question. So he just called you up one day about this?
Answer. Yeah, and said, you know, you should know—again, this is not verbatim, this is the essence—you should know that the firm may file an ethics complaint against Webb. There is a big debate going on within the firm; and, you know, I don't know how it is going to turn out, but it may turn that there's an ethics complaint filed.
Question. And did you relate that to anybody at the White House?
Answer. Again, I don't—I don't know. Again, if I saw the President, I may have told him that the Rose Firm may end up filing an ethics complaint. I don't recall whether I did or not. I would not have gone—again, I did not go out of my way to tell him. But if I saw him, I probably would have related that to him.
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Question. Did you consider that a serious matter?
Answer. For Webb it was a serious matter if they filed an ethics complaint. The mere fact that they were debating it, if you read any of the stories that were coming out about this time, you will know there was a conflict within the Rose Law Firm about what to do and, you know, two sides and everything. So again, you know, if you're a lawyer and your law firm files an ethics complaint, that's a serious matter. Whether or not I considered it to be, you know—it didn't change the equation very much. Because, based upon the stories, I had a sense that that sort of debate and discussion was going on within the law firm.
[Witness confers with counsel.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. How long have you known Mr. Matthews?
Answer. Fifteen years.
Question. What firm is he with?
Answer. He is either a solo practitioner or he's with one or two other people. He practices law in a small town in northwest Arkansas.
Question. And is he a friend of the President or First Lady?
Answer. President, probably both.
Question. Do you know how long he has known them?
Answer. No. As long as or longer. Because, you know, the President was in Fayetteville, which is in northwest Arkansas, before he moved to Little Rock. So my guess is that he has known them since when the President first came to Arkansas, came back to Arkansas.
David Matthews was a member of the State legislature at one point.
Question. And did you have a sense of who he was talking to at the firm?
Answer. No.
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Question. All right. Other than telling you about the division, did he give you a sense of what the details were that were involved?
Answer. No. Again I think the details or at least the issue was out there. You know, I think this all occurred after the March 2nd, so I think the general issue about whether or not, you know, this billing dispute with his father-in-law was the issue that I thought was out—was in the press and everything, so I think I thought I knew what the issue was.
Question. Did you ever ask him if this would spill over or have any effect on any matters relating to the First Lady in the law firm?
Answer. No, no, I had no sense it would.
Question. And that never was a point of discussion with anybody?
Answer. No.
Question. At the White House or anything like that?
Answer. No. This personal to Webb.
Question. So your understanding was then these are matters just related to Seth Ward?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And was that the POM case?
Answer. Right.
Question. And so it didn't have anything to do with any other matters where Seth Ward was represented by the firm?
Answer. I don't know of any other matters that Seth Ward was represented by the firm.
Question. Or had any dealings with——
Answer. I thought it had to do with the POM lawsuit. Park-O-Meter.
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Question. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Ickes ever doing any work for POM?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Vinson & Elkins working on the Rose Law Firm matter?
Answer. Yes—I mean, it was in the press that they had hired Vinson & Elkins.
Question. Do you ever have any contact with anyone at Vinson & Elkins about any of these matters?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know a gentleman named Mike Schaufele or Schaufele?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Did you ever discuss Mr. Hubbell's resignation with Mr. Schaufele?
Answer. No.
Question. Were you aware of him setting up any trusts for Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. Again, after the fact—I knew it has been reported in the press—established like, I guess, two trusts, one for the kids' education and one for living expenses.
Question. Did you ever have any discussions with David Kendall about Mr. Hubbell's legal situation?
Answer. Again, if I did, it was in the nonspecific category of us talking about it. I never had any conversations with him other than, you know, sort of isn't it a shame type.
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Question. Because you have testified previously you had discussions with Mr. Kendall about Whitewater legal matters; is that correct?
Mr. BALLEN. I'm going to object.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I'm not going to go into that area, I just wanted to distinguish between your discussions with Mr. Kendall were not of the type that you had of Whitewater, but these were just sort of, gee, did you see the newspaper article type of discussions?
Answer. Right.
Question. So they would be not of the nature of the discussions that you had regarding Whitewater, where you did have substantive discussions with Mr. Kendall about Whitewater; isn't that correct?
Mr. MURPHY. Mr. Lindsey has testified about that subject in the past.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Well, we're not going into that here.
I just wanted to distinguish between the two and to see if in your mind the two are very different types of communications.
Mr. BALLEN. Well, I believe the witness' testimony, he doesn't recall any conversations with Mr. Kendall. He was just speculating that if he had, it would have been of that nature.
The WITNESS. That's correct. You know, I would not say that my conversations with David with respect to Whitewater had been all that detailed. I have more knowledge about Whitewater than I do about Hubbell. So to the extent that I had conversations, they would probably be more extensive with respect to Whitewater, but I would not—I'm having a little trouble making the distinction, because I don't think—I'm having trouble remembering very detailed conversations I ever had with David about Whitewater. You know, I sat in a meeting in which we all imparted all of our information, but beyond that sort of general meeting that we had, I've not had multiple conversations with Kendall about Whitewater.
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Question. Were you aware of any efforts by Mr. McLarty to assist Mr. Hubbell with employment after he left the Justice Department?
Answer. Only what I've read in the paper.
Question. The March 13, 1994 meeting at the White House that was the Sunday before Mr. Hubbell resigned, do you recall if you were at the White House or around on that day?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Have you ever talked to Mr. McLarty about Mr. Hubbell's employment after the Justice Department?
Answer. No.
Question. To this day?
Mr. BALLEN. I'm sorry, what was the question?
The WITNESS. Whether I've ever discussed with Mack his efforts on behalf of Webb, and the answer was no, and then the question was, to this day?
I don't recall ever speaking to Mack about his efforts. But again, other than just if we had a conversation, it would have been nothing more than, no good deed goes unpunished. I mean, it would have been more of a general lament than it would have been a discussion.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay. Were you aware of any discussions at the White House about law firms being reluctant to hire Mr. Hubbell after he left the Justice Department?
Mr. MURPHY. I'm sorry, discussions with whom?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. With anybody at the White House?
Answer. I don't recall.
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Question. Were you aware—what was your understanding of what Mr. Hubbell was going to be doing after he left the Justice Department?
Answer. I don't know if I had an understanding. I mean, I knew at some point he opened an office, or, you know, he was given office space by Michael Cardozo, but I don't know—you know, I don't know what his plans were.
Question. And how did you learn of that?
Answer. I don't know. Webb may have told me; someone else may have told me that he had an office at Michael's office.
Question. All right. After Mr. Hubbell resigned, did you talk with him about his resignation or any matters related?
Answer. About his resignation, no.
Question. Or about what he was going to do?
Answer. No, not——
Question. When was the first time you recall seeing him after he resigned?
Answer. I don't recall. I mean, I had—I saw Webb off and on mostly at large group gatherings in '94 up until the time he went to jail, but I can't tell you when the first one was or the second one or, you know.
Question. So you continued to see him in a social setting?
Answer. Sure, yes.
Question. Every week, every few weeks?
Answer. Probably less, probably more like once a month—that may even be too much. I mean, there may be 2 or 3 months I wouldn't see him, and, you know, I'd go to somebody's house for Fourth of July, and, you know, there would be a Fourth of July gathering, he would be there. There would be a lot of the Arkansans, Thanksgiving, whatever.
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Question. Okay, and who was included in that—did you have a regular—is it a Tuesday night group or group that you all got together?
Answer. We did back early on, but that lasted less than 6 months, into '93, but we did have a group of most of the Arkansans who came up to events: Webb, me, Marsha, Maria Haley; you know, most of the Arkansans who came to the White House. But that lasted less than 6 months.
You know, I mean, Marsha Scott might have a Thanksgiving group over for dinner on Thanksgiving Day, and all the Arkansans who hadn't gone home for the holidays would be invited plus a lot of Washington people as well. But, I mean—you know—or I remember sometime in the fall that the Hubbells had something at their house that I went to. I think it was some holiday because we were watching football or something. So, I mean, you know, I would have dinner with different people, and the Hubbells would be included.
Question. And do you recall Mr. Hubbell, I guess his wife, being invited to the First Daddy's birthday party in October in '94, that year?
Answer. I don't recall that, but I wouldn't be surprised.
Question. When you mention Thanksgiving, do you recall Thanksgiving of '94, that time frame, if there was a gathering at that time Mr. Hubbell was involved in?
Answer. Usually Marsha Scott had a group of people over at Thanksgiving. Whether she had a group over or whether that's the time I remember that we had dinner at Webb's, I can't recall. It was some holiday. I thought that we had brunch or lunch at Webb's.
Question. Okay. Were you aware of Mr. Hubbell being in touch with the President and First Lady around Thanksgiving time, '94, to discuss what he was going to do, about whether he was going to plea or what he was going to do with his legal situation?
Answer. No.
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Question. Did there come a time when you learned that he had had a discussion with the President and First Lady about whether or not he should plead guilty?
Answer. I don't recall. You know, if I did, it was through the newspapers, and I'm trying to remember whether there was an article in the newspapers that indicated that he either—I don't know, he saw him or related to one or the other that he was going to plead guilty.
Question. Okay, and did you have any knowledge of the First Lady telling him that she thought he should fight the charges?
Answer. Again, I vaguely feel like I've read that somewhere, but I have no personal knowledge.
Question. You don't recall any conversations among people at the White House about that the First Lady was in Webb Hubbell's camp as opposed to the Rose Law Firm camp that was trying to get money from Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you ever—were there ever any such discussions about—with anyone at the White House about the allegations involved a lot of money—the partners were out a lot of money at the firm, and Mrs. Clinton and actually Bill Kennedy were both partners who would have been shorted such money? Do you recall generally any such discussions about where they were going to fall in terms of wanting to recoup any financial losses vis-a-vis Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. No.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Congressman Kanjorski has joined us this afternoon, and would you like to take—ask questions at this time?
Mr. KANJORSKI. No, that's all right, just follow.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay, I'm sorry.
Page 936 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. So your testimony is you don't recall any such conversations about recouping any money from the firm or anything like that?
Mr. MURPHY. Whether Mrs. Clinton or Bill Kennedy wanted to try to recoup funds from Mr. Hubbell?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Whether there was any discussion in the White House about such matters.
Answer. No, I don't recall.
Question. Were you aware of any discussions about any settlement offers that Mr. Hubbell made throughout the 1994 time period after he left the Justice Department?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay. Do you know John Richardson, Peggy Richardson's husband, I believe—IRS Commissioner——
Answer. I'm sorry, I didn't hear the question.
Question. John Richardson?
Answer. I know him—I've met him with his wife, but I don't know him.
Question. Okay. Do you have any recollection of him calling you regarding Mr. Hubbell——
Answer. No.
Question. At or around April of '94?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Richardson assisting Mr. Hubbell in any way with any law firms or trying to get him work?
Page 937 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Answer. No, I don't think so.
Question. I just wanted to go through some of the other employers of Mr. Hubbell and see if you have any knowledge to any of those.
Do you know Jack Williams?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And how long have you known Mr. Williams?
Answer. I don't know. Pretty well since 1978.
Question. Okay, and did you have any knowledge of him assisting Mr. Hubbell in any way with any consulting contracts or work in 1994?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell working on any matters related to Pacific Telesis?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge about Mr. Hubbell working on anything for the Sprint phone company?
Answer. No. I mean, you're talking about at the time?
Question. Yes, at any time prior to press—other than press reports?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay. And then I would also include other than press reports, or if anyone at the White House has told you, yes, I knew about this, and he got that through somebody. I would include that. I'll exclude solely reading it in the paper.
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell doing any work for McAndrews & Forbes?
Page 938 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell doing any work for Mid-America Dairymen?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell doing any work for Sun America?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell doing any work for Truman Arnold?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay. Do you know Mr. Arnold?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Okay. Were you aware of him being in touch with Mr. Hubbell in the months following Mr. Hubbell's resignation?
Answer. Yes, I probably had dinner with the Arnolds and the Hubbells during that period.
Question. And in the course of these dinners, did you ever learn that Mr. Hubbell was working on any matters?
Answer. No.
Question. All right. Did you ever meet a Mr. Wayne Reaud?
Answer. I had dinner with him one night, yes.
Question. Okay. At Truman Arnold's house?
Answer. No, at a restaurant here.
Question. And how did you come to might meet Mr. Reaud?
Answer. Reaud. I believe——
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Question. Sorry, it's R-E-A-U-D.
Answer. I believe I was asked by maybe Truman that they were having dinner at a restaurant on Pennsylvania Avenue, which I'm drawing a blank on the name, and asked me to join them, and when I got there, Wayne Reaud was one of the people at the table. I don't even remember whether the Hubbells were at the table or not. I don't remember that.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of him hiring Mr. Hubbell for any kind of consulting work?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay. Do you know Bernard Rapoport?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And how long have you known Mr. Rapoport?
Answer. Oh I've known—you know, I don't know him well. I've known him off and on, oh, 8 years or so. I mean, he's a big supporter of the President's.
Question. And do you have any knowledge of him hiring Mr. Hubbell to do any work?
Answer. I don't think I did, no.
Question. You seem to hesitate. Was there——
Answer. Well, at some point in '96, during the '96 campaign, B. Rapoport told me that he had helped Webb's children, and my understanding of that was that he had contributed money for their education. That's the only knowledge I had about that B. had tried to help Webb. I did not have any knowledge until I read it that he had hired Webb separate and apart from helping making a contribution to the trust to help the kids.
Question. And what did he tell you about the——
Answer. I think he indicated that he had tried to help Webb educate his children.
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Question. Do you recall how this came up?
Answer. No, I think we were in the middle of—I think we were in Texas during a political stop in the fall campaign, and he and I were just talking, you know, and he said something like, I tried to help Webb, you know, I helped support, you know, educate his kids.
Question. Do you recall if this came up in the context of news articles about Mr. Hubbell in the fall of '96?
Answer. I'm trying to remember when B. was—no, I don't know if it came up in any particular context. I mean, I think he was just talking in the course of the conversation, said something, but I don't remember what the predicate was for it.
Question. Did he ever mention that to the President or the First Lady?
Answer. I don't think so.
Question. Did you ever talk with Mr. Hubbell about that?
Answer. No, Mr. Hubbell was in jail.
Question. Did you keep in touch with Mr. Hubbell when he was in jail?
Answer. I spoke to him once.
Question. And what was the context of that conversation?
Answer. How you doing? You know.
Question. You called him or——
Answer. No, he called—I was at a party, and he called his wife, and several of us spoke to him. It was Thanksgiving, probably, of '95. Several of us spoke to him probably for less than—maybe Easter, but basically I just got on the phone, said, you doing okay? We're going to take care of Suzy, and the kids seem to be okay.
Question. Okay. You're aware of Mr. Rapoport being in touch with Mr. Hubbell about a conversation that he had with you?
Page 941 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Answer. Hum-um.
Question. Were you aware of Mr. Arnold or Mr. Rapoport, any efforts they were going to make to help Mr. Hubbell after he got out of jail?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know a John Moores, San Diego Padres?
Answer. I met him—I don't know him.
Question. Were you aware of him hiring Mr. Hubbell to——
Answer. No.
Question. Were you aware of Mr. Arnold talking to Mr. Moores about hiring Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know C.W. Conn?
Answer. I met him. I don't know him.
Question. Did you meet him—I want to go back. Did you meet Mr. Moores with Mr. Arnold; was that the context of meeting Mr. Moores?
Answer. I met Mr. Conn and Mr. Moores at a party at Mr. Arnold's house.
Question. And then you also said that you met Mr. Reaud or Reaud, however his name is pronounced, also with Mr. Arnold?
Answer. Right, but not at that same party; at a restaurant on Pennsylvania Avenue.
Question. Okay. But you had no knowledge of Mr. Hubbell doing any work for C.W. Conn?
Answer. No.
Question. What was your understanding of how Mr. Hubbell was going to be supporting himself in that—after he—the Justice Department?
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Mr. BALLEN. Objection. This has been asked and answered. The witness testified he had no understanding. If your answer has changed since the last time you were asked the question——
The WITNESS. No, I had no understanding. You know, I knew he was trying to make a living. I didn't know who he was trying to make a living from or how much of a living he was making.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Well, when you saw him once a month or every 3 months, did you ever discuss with him what are you doing or——
Answer. No.
Question. Did you ever discuss with Marsha Scott like, is Webb employed, or is he not employed?
Answer. No, I think Marsha and I probably had general discussions about, you know, boy, it must be tough on them, but, you know, I don't think I ever had specific conversations about who he was working for or what he was doing or how much money he was making.
Question. Did you have an understanding if he had an income at all?
Answer. No, I—you know—you know, again, I don't—I had no idea who his clients were or whether he had clients, who they were or whether he was making any money.
Question. All right. And did there come a time when Mrs. Hubbell asked you for any assistance in getting a job at the Interior Department?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know anything about how Mrs. Hubbell came to her job at the Interior Department?
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Answer. Well, Mrs. Hubbell had a job at the Interior Department. She took a leave of absence. On the day she announced that she was coming back from her leave of absence, or she shoved back out from her leave of absence, she showed up at the Interior Department and apparently was told that she couldn't come to work because the White House hadn't cleared her coming back to work.
She called me as well as other people, I think, in the White House to try to find out what was going on. I told her I didn't know what was going on and I would try to find out. I went down to—I think talked to Erskine, who I think had also gotten a call from her or somebody over there, and was told that it was taken care of. But it was she already had a job at the Department of Interior, she had just taken unpaid leave.
Question. Were you aware of Mr. Hubbell meeting with Tom Collier at the Interior Department?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of what Mr. Hubbell would have been meeting with Mr. Collier about?
Answer. No.
Question. And during these months after Mr. Hubbell left the Justice Department, did at any time you have discussions or hear of discussions about Mr. Hubbell and how he was supporting himself, discussions that other people had?
Answer. Not specifically. I mean, I may have had discussions with Marsha about, you know, it's going to be tough on them, but I don't, you know—but I had no discussions about who his clients were or whether he had clients.
Question. During that time frame did you have any sense of any growing legal problems that he was having in connection with the—with Mr. Fiske, or then as of August '94 it was Mr. Starr?
Page 944 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Answer. Again, I can't recall. Anything I would have learned about growing legal problems would have been in the press.
Question. Okay. You never heard anything at the White House about any of Mr. Hubbell's legal problems with the Independent Counsels?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay, no discussion even about newspaper articles or anything like that?
Mr. BALLEN. Objection.
The WITNESS. Yeah, we—you know, we may have had—you know, if we saw an article, you might say to someone, did you see the article about Webb? But no discussion that suggested any level of knowledge over and above what was reported in the newspaper.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Were you aware of Mr. Hubbell meeting with the President in July of '94 at Camp David to discuss any matters——
Answer. No.
Question. Related to his legal situation?
Answer. Well, I don't think that was—what I have read about it, I don't think that's a proper characterization of their meeting, but no, I did not know that they had gone to Camp David over the Fourth of July holiday.
Question. And did there come a time when you learned—is it only through news accounts that you know of that Camp David meeting?
Answer. Yes.
Question. So you never heard from anybody at that time the President was going to meet with Mr. Hubbell?
Page 945 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Answer. No.
Question. Okay. At that time after Mr. Hubbell left the Justice Department and—actually the March 19 article—March 2nd, when he was discussing the Independent Counsel's interest, not of Mr. Hubbell, but that came later in the summer, some interest in that, did you ever hear—did anyone ever, as a result of anything that was in the news, ever recommend to the President that he shouldn't meet with Mr. Hubbell during this time frame?
Answer. Again, I don't know the answer to that. Since I didn't know he was meeting, I don't know——
Question. No, I'm not asking about the meetings, but have you ever heard, you know, like maybe you shouldn't meet; not whether you heard about a particular meeting, but whether there was any general discussion about whether or not Mr. Hubbell should be at the White House or be at events, that kind of thing?
Answer. I was unaware of that. No one had that discussion with me, and I was unaware of those discussions if they occurred.
Question. In June of '94, there were a number of meetings where Mr. Huang and Mr. Riady came to the White House. Were you aware of the Riadys, James Riady or John Huang meeting with anybody at the White House at or around June of '94?
Answer. Without some sort of anchor as to—I think the answer is no. Again, I would see John Huang and James Riady at various times in the hallway. I would stop and say hello to them. So it is possible I would have seen them in and around the White House during that time frame. But again, there is no way for me to relate when I would see them in the hall with any particular month or even year.
Question. Okay. When you saw Mr. Huang, was there ever any discussion on, you know, how's your appointment coming along, or where is that; you know, did he ever have any discussions in '94 about him getting a job in the administration?
Page 946 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Answer. No.
Question. Just if you ran into him, like has anything happened yet, anything like that?
Answer. No, I mean, at some point I assume I knew, though I couldn't tell you when, that he was over at the Department of Commerce, but I had no sense, you know, as to when he went over there or what the status at any point of his appointment was.
Question. All right. And Mr. Hubbell got his 100,000 or so from the Lippo Group in late June of '94. Did you ever hear anything about that prior to press reports?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you had any discussion with anybody at the White House since the press reports about those matters about Mr. Hubbell getting that amount of money from the Lippo Group?
Answer. No.
Question. And that would include the President and the First Lady on that also?
Answer. Yes.
Question. I just wanted to go through some other employers. Did you have any knowledge of Time Warner hiring Mr. Hubbell to do anything?
Answer. Not at the time, no.
Question. Do you know Michael Berman?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Okay. Prior to the press reports of Michael Berman assisting Mr. Hubbell getting Time Warner, did Mr. Berman ever tell you anything about that assistance?
Answer. No, not prior to the press reports.
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Question. Okay. So at or around the time when Mr. Hubbell pled guilty in December '94, Mr. Berman never called you up about anything relating to this?
Answer. No, not that I recall.
Mr. BALLEN. Could we take a break on this point?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Sure.
[Brief recess.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay. You had mentioned that you thought you attended dinner with Truman Arnold and the Hubbells at some point?
Answer. At least one.
Question. And the reason I ask is I have a document from April 5th of '94 that Mr. Arnold produced that shows a dinner, and the following morning he calls Mr. McLarty about Mr. Hubbell. So I was just wondering if you can recall if in the course of the dinner any discussion with Mr. Hubbell came up about any type of work he might be doing for Mr. Arnold?
Answer. Is that a dinner I attended?
Question. Yeah, the April 5th one is Bruce Lindsey, the Hubbells and Erskine Bowles. Does that ring a bell that Mr. Bowles was there?
Answer. I'm thinking that maybe the one—you know, that was at this restaurant, but I'm not sure of that because if I remember right, Erskine—I came late because I came from the White House, and I think Erskine came even later than I did, but again I don't remember any discussion of any substance at the dinner.
Question. This was just a social occasion?
Answer. Right.
Question. Mr. Arnold didn't discuss his business or anything he was doing in Washington?
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Answer. No. I mean, he lived here at the time, he had a house here, but no, he was—he was finance director, I guess, of the DNC at that time, I think. was that before he was finance director?
Question. I don't know.
Answer. Anyway, he had a presence here anyway. We did not discuss business.
Question. Um-hum. And do you know who Tony Harrington is?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And who is he?
Answer. Tony Harrington is a partner at Hogan & Hartson.
Question. And do you recall him calling you about Mr. Hubbell at any time?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you recall ever talking to him about Mr. Hubbell going to Hogan & Hartson?
Answer. No.
You know, I had conversation, and again, I don't believe it was Tony Harrington, but it may have been with John Richardson, which made me think about it. I had a conversation with one person in which they indicated to me that no law firm or very few law firms were going to be willing to hire Webb until such time as his problems were resolved at his law firm.
Again, he was no more specific than that. It was just—and I don't quite know what the context of it coming up was, but someone at one time said, you know, there is no law firm here that is going to look at him until he gets his problems worked out.
Question. And do you recall that was either Mr. Richardson or Mr. Harrington?
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Answer. No. I don't know, I don't think—I don't recall any conversation with Tony Harrington. When you mentioned did you ever talk to John Richardson, it could have been a conversation with John. It could have been with a third party, I don't know. The only conversation I remember having at all about—about Webb going to work anywhere was someone just telling me that, you know, that they didn't think any law firm would take a look at him until he got his problems solved with the Rose Law Firm. But I don't remember who it was or when it was, but it is the only conversation I recall having with anybody about employment opportunities for Webb.
Question. Okay, and did you ever relay that to anybody at the White House?
Answer. No. I mean, it was self-evident in a way that if you were having a dispute with your law firm in Little Rock, not many other law firms are going to go out and hire you. It was not—you know, it was not surprising to me. It was, you know—so, no, I don't think I related it to anybody.
Question. Did you ever discuss that with Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you have an understanding of Mr. Hubbell working during this time, like sort of sitting at a desk doing some type of work?
Mr. BALLEN. I'm going to object because the witness said he already testified three times now that he did not have an understanding of what work, if any, Mr. Hubbell was doing.
The WITNESS. That's correct. I mean, I had a sense that he had a desk and an office, or a desk at least, if not an office, but I didn't know whether he—how often he went there or what he did when he got there.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
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Question. Okay. You didn't know if he was regularly getting up, going to work, sort of 9 to 5, anything like that?
Answer. No. You know, I mean, obviously—if you're trying—if you're trying to get work or find work, you know, it's better to sort of have a place to, you know, to go every day than it is to be sitting around at home in your housecoat. But I had no idea how often he went there, when he got there, whether or not he had clients, or whether or not he just used it as a way to take messages, looking for clients.
Question. And during that time if you had to reach him, would you call home or his office?
Answer. I don't have any sense. I don't know if I ever tried to reach him.
Question. Were you aware of Marsha Scott being in touch with him during this time?
Answer. Sure.
Question. Would Ms. Scott relate to you conversations she had with Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. No.
Question. Did she ever tell you anything about what her understanding of his work was?
Answer. No. Again, I testified earlier that if there was any person in the White House that I would have had a general conversation about Webb's situation, you know, how tough it was going to be on his family and how tough it must be on his family, it would have been Marsha. But I don't remember any conversation more than general, you know, isn't it a shame type of conversation.
Question. And did you have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell traveling to any foreign countries during this time frame, spring/summer/fall of '94?
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Answer. No.
Question. All right. Do you know John Phillips and Linda Douglas?
Answer. Yes. Not well, but I know who they are.
Question. Were you aware of Mr. Hubbell being asked to do some writing for the Consumer Support and Education Fund by Mr. Phillips?
Answer. Not at the time.
Question. Okay. Were you aware of Phillips taking a vacation with the Hubbells and paying for some of that vacation?
Answer. I don't think so, no.
Question. Okay. When was the first time you learned of the John Phillips matter, the work he did for the Consumer Support and Education Fund?
Answer. The work he did or didn't do?
I think after it came out in the press that he was writing a book, I think I learned that John Phillips was unhappy that Webb had agreed to do some writing for his project and that he hadn't done it, and now he was writing a book. And so I think I just learned of that, sort of a general unhappiness on John Phillips' part.
Question. Do you recall how you learned that?
Answer. Probably Mickey Kantor.
Question. Okay. And what did Mr. Kantor tell you?
Answer. I think what I just said, you know, that John—that Webb had agreed to do some writing for John, and, you know, that he hadn't done it, and now he was writing a book, and he was being paid supposedly, I guess, some sort of—what's it called—an advance, thank you, for the book.
Mr. BALLEN. Sir, do you recall what time this was approximately that you learned this?
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The WITNESS. It would have been after Webb went to jail and after it was announced in the press that he was—that he was writing a book. But again, beyond that I can't tell you.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I think the fact he was writing a book was announced sometime about when he went to jail, around——
Answer. Early '96, but anyway—because if I remember right, the book was supposed to come out like in July of '96, and it was maybe 6 months or so before that. I don't remember. When did he go to jail?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. August '95.
Were you aware of Mr. Phillips paying back the Consumer Support and Education Fund for the advance that had been given to Mr. Hubbell on that matter?
Answer. I think so, yes. I think that was reported in the press that he had done that.
Question. Did Mr. Kantor mention anything about that to you?
Answer. I don't believe so.
Question. Okay do you recall how this came up in the discussion with Mr. Kantor?
Answer. No. I believe—I'm sort of speculating that I saw him in the hall and said something to him about, I see we're—Webb's writing a book. Did you know about it or something? He said no, and in the course of that conversation, he said that John Phillips was unhappy because he didn't know about it and that Webb had agreed in writing for him, and that, you know, he hadn't done it, and now he was writing this book. I think it was just my asking Mickey in general whether he knew or was aware that this book deal was out there.
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Question. Were you aware of Mr. Kantor assisting Mr. Hubbell in any way to find employment?
Answer. No, not at the time.
Question. Okay, and did there come a time when you learned that Mr. Kantor had assisted him in any way?
Answer. I think that has been in the press, so I don't believe I became aware of it until it was in the press.
Question. Have you ever discussed anything with Mr. Kantor about whether or not he helped Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. No.
Question. Did there come a time when you learned that Mr. Hubbell was doing some work for the LAX airport in the city of Los Angeles?
Answer. Yes, what was in the press.
Question. All right. And prior to that had you ever heard anything about Mr. Hubbell trying to get payment?
Answer. No.
Question. Had Mr. Kantor ever said anything to you about Mr. Hubbell having problems getting paid by the city of Los Angeles?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know somebody named Lisa Specht?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay, and you had worked on the LAX matter some, and during the course of your working on that, you had never learned that Mr. Hubbell was representing the city?
Answer. No.
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Question. And so the answer is that you had provided previously to the committee last year, those are accurate, and you have nothing you want to change in regard to any of this?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay.
Answer. Didn't know about it last year, don't know about it this year.
Question. Okay. We'll skip through that.
When did you first hear that Mr. Hubbell was going to plead guilty to two felony counts of mail fraud and tax evasion?
Answer. Well, those are two different questions. I'm not sure I knew until the day he pled what he was pleading guilty to. So the question is when I became aware that he was pleading to those counts, it would have been the day—if there was a story 2 or 3 days before that in the press, which I think there was, I probably learned that he was going to plead guilty or was expected to plead guilty at that point.
Question. All right. Do you know if Mr. Neel had called the White House Counsel's Office to just give anyone a heads up on Mr. Hubbell pleading to anything in general?
Answer. Again, you know, I'm not aware of that.
Question. Okay. And after the guilty plea, did you talk to Mr. Hubbell about in general the legal matters in light of that he was pleading guilty?
Answer. No.
Question. Were you surprised by the guilty plea?
Answer. Yes. I was surprised by the allegations and the amount of money involved, yes.
Question. And did you ever talk with him about that?
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Answer. No. I don't know if you or anybody ever plea guilty, but it's not something that you bring up and discuss with him, no.
Question. Fortunately, no.
Answer. I mean, it's something you avoid, not something you want to get into discussion about.
Question. But given that he's been a longtime friend of yours and all, and he had told you all that there wasn't anything to this once; isn't that correct?
Answer. Hadn't told me that, you know——
Question. Told others at the White House?
Answer. Press reports said that's what he told the President, you know. I mean, you know, the only thing—I'm trying to remember when I knew about anything more than just simply this so-called billing dispute, you know. I mean, the allegation that he had, you know, that he had charged expenses, personal expenses, to clients or charged personal expenses to the firm—I'm not sure—again, you know, it would depend on what was in the public press. I'm not sure any of that was sort of known until almost the day that he actually pled. I mean, there were certain questions about whether he had double-billed the RTC or something, but I don't think this sort of personal use of the firm or client money came out until the fact that he pled.
Question. Did you ever talk with anyone at the White House at that time or the time of the guilty plea when those facts came out?
Answer. He did talk to me. I don't know whether he talked to anybody else or not.
Question. Did you ever talk to anyone at the White House about that?
Answer. Again, not in any sort of way other than, can you believe it; or, can you believe how much it was; you know, what do you think he was doing; you know, how did he ever think he could get away with that? I mean, nothing—I never talked to anybody who knew anything about it other than just sort of general conversation, you know, any two people would have about, you know, did you see what he did, did you see how much money it was, did you see, you know, like what the allegations are?
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Question. Did you ever talk with the President or the First Lady about the guilty plea?
Answer. Did I? Again, if I did, it was in the same sort of general way. You know, what was he thinking of, how does anybody believe they can get away with that amount and that extensiveness of doing that.
Question. Did you ever hear the President say anything in terms of that he felt betrayed or anything like that?
Answer. No, no.
Question. Or that he had lied to him about matters previously?
Answer. No. I mean, I think no—no.
Question. Following his guilty plea were you aware of anyone in the White House—the Sherburne memo where it talks about monitoring Webb Hubbell's cooperation? Were you aware of Mr. Hubbell's cooperation with the Independent Counsels being monitored by the White House Counsel's Office following his guilty plea?
Answer. No, not in, you know, not in any sort of sense like that.
Question. Do you know if anyone in the Counsel's Office or Ms. Sherburne in particular was following what Mr. Hubbell may have been telling the Independent Counsel?
Answer. Well, again, I mean, you know—to the extent that she is reading and processing what is, you know, out there, you know, yeah, I would expect her to follow it up, you know, and that's—follow up; but in the sense of trying to find out what he's going to do or anything like that, no, I was not aware of efforts like that.
Question. Were you aware of Mr. Neel's ever calling the White House Counsel's Office to tell anyone about what Mr. Hubbell had testified to in any matters?
Answer. No.
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Question. Was there ever any discussion at the White House about what Mr. Hubbell may be testifying to because at that time he had agreed to cooperate with the Independent Counsel?
Answer. No.
Question. You never heard of any concerns expressed or anything like that about what Mr. Hubbell might be testifying to?
Answer. No.
Question. Were you ever present when anybody else discussed anything relating to Mr. Hubbell's guilty plea with the President, First Lady?
Answer. Not that I recall. I mean, again, could have come up in a conversation that a third person was there and participated in, sure, but it was in a nonspecific sort of way if it did.
Question. I wanted to ask you some questions about when the issues about Mr. Huang came up last fall and some of the fund-raising stories started appearing. Why don't we start with the September 13, 1995 meeting where Mr. Huang reportedly decided he wanted to change jobs and move from the Commerce Department to the DNC. Would you tell us how that meeting came about?
Answer. I don't know how it came about.
Question. Okay. You were at that meeting on September 13, 1995?
Answer. Um-hum, yes.
Question. And who did the meeting include?
Answer. James Riady, his wife, John Huang, Joe Giroir, President, myself—I'm trying to remember whether John's wife was there or not. I don't recall.
Question. Okay. And what occurred in the meeting?
Answer. Basically it was, you know, sort of a general conversation about, you know, James' family, the President, Chelsea. Again, I don't recall the conversation, but there was nothing unusual about the conversation.
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At some point in the conversation, I believe John said something like, you know, maybe I could be of more help at the DNC than at Commerce. And, you know, the President, I think, indicated, if that's something you'd like, you know, that would be good, and that was sort of the way it was left. There was nothing further done.
After the meeting I called John and asked him to come by to see me, which I did, as you indicated, 2 days later, and I said, I just wanted to make sure, you know, that you really want to do this. I don't want to do anything or put anything in motion, you know, if you were just being polite and you're perfectly happy where you are and want to stay where you are. And he said, no, he thought he could, you know, do more good for the President over at the DNC and raising money and trying to organize the Asian American community. And so I told Harold that he had indicated an interest in going to work at the DNC then. That was sort of the end of my involvement.
Question. Do you know why you were included in that meeting?
Answer. We usually try to include someone in almost every meeting with the President, so there was always another person. Why I was included—I don't know the reason, you would have to ask the people that asked me to come to it. The fact——
Question. Do you know who that is? Who asked you to come?
Answer. Probably got a called from either Betty Currie or Nancy Hernreich, someone in the immediate office. Again, because the Riadys relationship with the President is more—stems from Arkansas—you know, they may have decided that I was—and because it was not going to be specifically—at least my understanding was it was not going to be specifically on any sort of topic, you know, it wasn't going to be on any matter that was either an NSC matter, an NEC matter, domestic policy matter, that I was sort of, you know, a good person to be there; again, because my Arkansas relationship as well.
Question. And do you know why Joe Giroir was there?
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Answer. He came with them. I don't know—I don't know—you know, I don't know who included him, whether he was with them that day or whether they asked for this, they said Joe Giroir is going to be with them or not. I don't know any specific reason why he was there.
Question. And at this time, Mr. Huang was still working at the Commerce Department, correct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Do you know why he was there with Mr. Riady?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you get a sense that he was there with Mr. Riady in order make this pitch that he wanted to move?
Answer. No, because I really didn't have a sense that the purpose of this meeting was about their pitch. One of the reasons I wanted to follow up with John was in the context of the discussion, I can't quite tell you, something—it just seemed like he said—he didn't sound to me like—it didn't sound like he said it, you know, prearranged. And I didn't want it to be sort of an offhand comment that he made that, you know, that we went off and the next thing you knew he felt duty bound, you know, to go because he had mentioned he wanted to. So I wanted to make sure that this was something that he really had thought about and really wanted to do before I did anything about it.
Question. Presumably Mr. Huang was—this was a day that he would normally be at work so, he is taking off from work to come over to this meeting with Mr. Riady. I'm just trying to get an understanding of why he is leaving his job to come over for this what appears to be somewhat undefined meeting.
Answer. I have no answer for that. I mean, you know, it did not seem unusual to me for John to be there with the Riadys because frankly, you know, they had worked together for so long. They were friends. You know, if James is in town, it did not seem that strange for John to, you know, take time off from his job to go around with his friend.
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Question. Were you aware of Mr. Huang keeping in touch with Lippo Group while he was still at Commerce?
Answer. The answer to that is no. I mean, you know, whether—I would have expected—I mean, I keep in touch with my former law firm. It would not surprise me that he kept in touch with them but I was unaware that he did.
Question. Are you now aware of him making lots of phone calls to his former employment on his government phone card?
Answer. I read the paper. I am aware of what the papers are saying. I don't know what the facts are.
Question. Have you had any discussions with anyone at the White House about what he was doing, whether he was making all those phone calls to the Lippo Group while he was working at the Commerce Department?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you have any knowledge of any job at the Commerce Department that required him to call the Lippo Group frequently?
Answer. No. I mean I don't know if I knew what he did at the Department of Commerce so, you know, I'm not in a position to answer that because I don't know—I have no idea what his responsibilities were at the department.
Question. Do you recall what time of day the meeting was?
Answer. Seems like afternoon. I don't remember.
Question. When you came into the meeting, was everyone already there, or did you escort the group in?
Answer. I don't recall. My sense is that, just the normal way those things happen, they would not have a meeting start—if I was going to come, they wouldn't let them into the office until I got down there. But I don't recall.
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Question. Are you aware of John Huang being in touch with Harry Thompson?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of what the relationship between Harry Thompson and John Huang is?
Answer. No.
Question. Did Mr. Huang mention anything about Harry Thompson on that day?
Answer. On that day? No, as far as—I don't recall John Huang ever mentioning Harry Thompson on any day.
Question. Our records reflect that he made some phone calls to Harry Thompson the day before and that day. I'm wondering if that ever came up in a conversation or if you have any knowledge as to what that connection would be?
Answer. No, ma'am.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Huang working—was he going to be doing anything—working on the convention, Mr. Huang?
Answer. No, not——
Question. At that time?
Answer. At that time. I'm not even sure, you know, Harry was going to be working on the convention. Again, I hadn't thought much about the convention in September of '95. So, no, the answer to that is I don't know if Harry would have been working on the convention. And even if he was, I don't know why John would be talking to him.
Question. Did the President ask you to follow up with Mr. Huang?
Answer. I don't—I don't recall. I mean, he may have said, you know, ''Bruce, will you make sure the right people know about it?'' But I don't recall that. But, again, one of the purposes of having a person there is to know that, you know, if there's something that needs to be followed up on, that there is a mechanism, that the President doesn't have to, you know, follow up, so that somebody else is there to sort of make sure it gets followed up.
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Now, whether as we were leaving, if he turned to me and said, ''Will you follow up on John's request,'' or when John said it, if he turned and said, ''Bruce, will you follow up on that,'' I don't recall that, but it wouldn't be unusual. It wouldn't probably be necessary, either.
Question. So you were generally talking about—I mean, they were generally talking about family matters and things and then somehow this came up?
Answer. Well, they may have been talking about the campaign, frankly. Again, I don't—they were talking just in general about what was going on, and the campaign was starting to heat up. I don't know exactly what they were talking about. I don't know the context that this came up, if somewhere in the conversation John indicated an interest in going—I'm not even sure if he indicated an interest in going.
He indicated that he thought he could do the President more good if he went to the DNC than he could at the Department of Commerce. And as I say, I thought—sort of the way he said it, I couldn't tell whether it was maybe out of a sense of obligation that he should, you know, this is what he should be offering or whether or not it was something he really wanted to do, which is why I felt the need to not simply go to Harold and say, you know, you might want to follow up on this, but go back to John and make sure John really meant what he said.
Question. Were you aware of the President having approved a large media budget in early September of '95 on commercials, Dick Morris's commercials at the time?
Answer. The $10 million media budget that had been approved? I thought—the answer to that, I guess, is no. I was involved—slightly involved in the decision to buy media in June or July of 1995. But I don't recall a separate discussion—or I mean a separate buy in September.
Question. That was the initial media buy?
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Answer. Right.
Question. And then there was a big project sort of signed off on in early September, sometime between September 7th and 10th. The $10 million was going to be borrowed, largely.
Do you have any knowledge of that?
Answer. Not that I recall. I mean, I was involved in some of the meetings involving media but not many of them, but I don't recall that one.
Question. Do you recall if in this meeting that generally came up at all, like, you know, the next campaign is going to be a challenge, we're going to need to raise a lot of money, sort of something that caused Mr. Huang to say, well, maybe I can help there?
Answer. Again, I don't recall the specifics of the conversations. But it is possible that in talking about the campaign they would have been talking about, you know, it is going to be an expensive campaign, or something like that that would have led to his comment. Again, since I don't recall the specifics, I can't tell you that it happened. But it is not—it would not be that out of the ordinary for there to be in a general discussion about the campaign, a discussion about how expensive it was going to be.
Mr. BALLEN. Sir, do you remember that coming up or no?
The WITNESS. No, I don't remember the specifics. I remember John offering to be of help, thought he might be of more help to the DNC. I don't recall how—what the predicate of that was, what we were discussing that caused him to do that. Again, it is reasonable that we were talking about the campaign, but I don't recall that.
Mr. BALLEN. But you could have been talking about baseball? You could have been talking about anything?
Ms. COMSTOCK. I don't think he indicated that he was talking about baseball.
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Mr. BALLEN. Could I finish my question, please? The witness is speculating. And if he doesn't recall, he's making an assumption, and I want that clear for the record.
The WITNESS. Right, I don't recall what the discussion was prior to John's statement.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recall if you took any notes at the meeting?
Answer. I don't recall. I doubt if I would have.
Question. Do you normally take notes or not take notes in meetings with the President?
Answer. Depends. I don't take notes unless there is something I need to follow up on. Now, I may have written down ''John Huang DNC.'' But if I did, it would have only been to remind—I don't recall doing that. But I would not have been taking notes as we went along. I would have written down—if I intended to follow up, I might have written a reminder of me to follow up, at which point I probably would have thrown it away once I called him.
Question. Was this a meeting in the Oval Office?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And were you seated?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Do you recall how long it lasted?
Answer. No. I think the records reflect how long it was; 15 minutes, maybe.
Question. And was Betty Currie or Nancy Hernreich in the meeting at any point? Did they walk them in?
Answer. Again, it would be logical they would walk them in or come in and try to break the meeting up if Steve Goodin wasn't there.
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Question. And who is he?
Answer. He's the President's personal aide. He's sort of the person who is always with the President, who comes in and says, ''Mr. President, your next appointment is standing out here,'' or ''Mr. President, you need to go to get ready to go to dinner.'' Whatever the schedule is, he tries to, to the extent he's around, he tries to keep the meetings on some sort of regular schedule.
Question. And where does he work physically?
Answer. He has a desk in the front office across from Betty Currie's. His main desk is back somewhere else on the first floor.
Question. Is there anything else about that September 13th, 1995, meeting that you recall?
Answer. Huh-uh. No.
Question. Parts of conversations or——
Answer. No.
Question. Do you recall where Mr. Huang or Mr. Riady were going after the meeting?
Answer. No.
Question. Or Mr. Giroir?
Answer. No.
Question. Did the President ever ask you anything after the meeting about—if you followed up on anything?
Answer. No, not that I recall.
Question. And were you aware of Mr. Riady or Mr. Huang coming back at next day—and this isn't the meeting on the 15th—on the 14th, if you recall them coming back?
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Answer. No.
Question. So the next time that you dealt with Mr. Huang or Mr. Riady was on the 15th, you met with Mr. Huang?
Answer. Yeah. I didn't deal with Mr. Riady. I dealt with Mr. Huang. I called and asked if he would come by and see me.
Question. You called Mr. Riady?
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. At his office?
Answer. Yes.
Question. So you initiated the phone call?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And you told him you wanted to follow up on——
Answer. Right. I don't know—I don't know whether I did it or whether I had my assistant call and say would John be willing to come back over and visit with me.
Question. So at that point you knew where he was located at the Commerce Department?
Answer. Probably.
Question. You knew where to tell somebody to find him?
Answer. Probably. Again, I would have probably said he's at the Department of Commerce. I don't know if I would have known any more specifically what office. I doubt if I knew what his title was. In fact, I'm probably pretty sure I didn't know. I would say, ''Will you see if you can get in touch with John Huang over at the Department of Commerce and see if he can come back over and visit.''
Question. And did he come over that day that you called?
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Answer. I don't know if he came over that day. I don't know whether we called on the 14th and he came over on the 15th or if he called on the 15th and he came over on the 15th.
Question. And then when he came over on the 15th, do you recall how long you met with him that day?
Answer. No. Not very long. My only purpose was to ask him whether or not he really wanted to do this, was it something he really wanted to do. And he said yes.
Question. And why did he say he was interested in doing it?
Answer. I think he thought he could help the President more at the DNC than he could at the Department.
Question. And did you discuss with him his fund-raising abilities?
Answer. No.
Question. Was there any attempt to find out, you know, if this was something, you know, that was his strong suit or something that he was suited for?
Answer. Well, I knew he had been active in the Asian-American community, so I knew to the extent he could help us organize the Asian-American community that it was something he had done before. But that really wasn't my role. I wasn't interviewing him for this. I just didn't want to pass it along to people who would make those decisions if he was not serious about it, it was just a polite comment he had made to the President and he really didn't want us to follow up on.
Question. And you had said you didn't want to set things in motion unless he was really serious about it. So your understanding was that you were going to have this meeting to see if things should be set in motion?
Mr. BALLEN. Objection. This is the third time the witness has been asked and answered the exact same question, for the record.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. It was your understanding you were going to begin a process whereby you would see if he could go over to the DNC?
Answer. I was going to mention to Harold that John Huang had expressed an interest in going to work at the DNC. I didn't want to express John Huang's interest in going to the DNC if John Huang really didn't have an interest in going to the DNC. So before I saw Harold or called Harold and said, ''By the way, John Huang was in the office the other day and indicated to the President that he might like to go to work over at the DNC,'' I thought I should make sure that that in fact was what John Huang wanted.
Question. And if that's what John Huang wanted, was that what John Huang was going to get?
Answer. No, I don't have any sense of that. I was simply going to tell someone that that was what his interest was. It would be their decision as to whether or not they had a position, whether they could work it out or anything else. I just didn't want to pass along his interest if it really wasn't his interest.
Question. And so you told Harold Ickes that he was interested in this?
Answer. That he had expressed an interest in going to work for the DNC.
Question. And then what happened?
Answer. I have no idea.
Question. You don't know if Harold met with him or not?
Answer. I know that now, but I didn't know it at the time. I had no other involvement in it at the time. I mean, I read that Harold at some point met with him and so forth, but again, that's all from press accounts and after the fact accounts, not from knowledge I knew at the time.
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Question. Were you aware of Truman Arnold saying anything to anybody at the DNC on behalf of John Huang?
Answer. No.
Question. Were you aware of Joe Giroir suggesting to anybody at the DNC that John Huang should be hired?
Answer. Not at the time.
Question. Did you only learn of that through press accounts?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Has anyone at the White House since told you whether that was the case or not?
Answer. I don't know if anybody in the White House knows if it is the case. No. The answer is no, no one did.
Question. I'm wondering if anyone mentioned it to you.
Answer. No. I read a press story at some point that said that Joe Giroir had called Fowler or somebody at the DNC.
Question. When you spoke with John Huang, did he discuss the fund-raising he had done in 1992?
Answer. No.
Question. In the meeting with the President, had he mentioned anything like ''Remember what a good job we did in '92,'' or anything like that?
Answer. Not that I recall. I think he expressed, and again, in what I thought was some sort of halting way that didn't sound to me—it almost sounded polite: ''Well, maybe I can be of more help to you'' or ''maybe I can be of greater assistance at the DNC than I can at the Department of Commerce.''
Again, the reason I felt the need to follow up was I thought it did not sound, you know, gung ho, you know, ''I really want to do this,'' you know, ''The reason I wanted to come see you today was to tell you I wanted to do it.'' None of that was expressed. It sounded to me like, you know, as almost a polite statement that he may not have meant, and I didn't want to do anything about it if he didn't mean it.
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Question. Did he ever mention to you the amounts of money he could raise or what, you know, what kind of dollar figures you were looking at?
Answer. No.
Question. Or what his—if he did something like that, what would be expected of him?
Answer. No.
Question. So this was a very generic conversation you had with him?
Answer. I called back. He asked me to come in. I said, ''John, before I do anything, I just want to make sure this is something you really want to do.'' And in the course he said, ''Yes, I really would like to do it.'' I said, ''Fine, I just wanted to make sure.'' And that probably was the extent of the conversation. And then with that I told Harold.
Question. Did there come a time when you learned that Mr. Huang had indeed moved over to the DNC?
Answer. Oh, I'm sure I did. I don't remember when I learned that. But I'm sure that, yes, at some point I learned that he moved to the DNC.
Question. Did you have occasion to see him at fund-raising events throughout '96?
Answer. Oh, yeah, at several, yeah. But you know, again, I didn't go to fund-raising events here in the District. I usually only go to fund-raising events if we're on the road and we're already there anyway. I remember at one event in Los Angeles seeing him, but that's sort of the only time I remember seeing him, was at that event where the President acknowledged Mr. Huang.
Question. July 22nd event?
Answer. I don't know. I was not in the room when he acknowledged Mr. Huang, so I don't know. I don't usually go to the fund-raisers. I usually try not to go to the fund-raisers.
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Question. Did you have any knowledge of John Huang having any contacts with Charlie Trie?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you have any knowledge of John Huang having any contacts with was Pauline Kanchanalak?
Answer. No.
Question. Or with Johnny Chung?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you have any contacts with Johnny Chung?
Answer. Not that I'm aware.
Question. Or with Pauline Kanchanalak?
Answer. Not that I'm aware of.
Question. And I'll return to Charlie Trie.
Mr. BALLEN. Could you speak up?
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'm sorry. I will wait on Charlie Trie, the Charlie Trie matters at this time.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Did you ever, in the summer of '96, hear about Mr. Fowler pushing John Huang to, you know, raise more money or their quotas or whatever targets that they were saying needed to be higher?
Answer. No.
Question. When was the first time that you heard of some problems in connection with John Huang's fund-raising?
Answer. I don't remember. I believe it had to do with the press reports about—whatever that company in Korea that was—Am Choeng?
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Question. Choeng Am, C-H-O-E-N-G A-M?
Answer. Yeah, I think that's the first I heard anything about any problems.
Question. And how did you hear about that?
Answer. It was in the press, I think the L.A. Times.
Question. Just the press accounts? Were you aware of anyone from the DNC calling the White House to ask about that?
Answer. No.
Question. And were you aware of any discussions then with the White House about returning the funds that were raised from Choeng Am?
Answer. I don't recall. I mean, if we determined or if the DNC determined that they didn't come from the American subsidiary, I think we would have concurred that they should be returned. But I don't think—I don't specifically remember that we had that conversation about—over contributions. I don't know that I specifically remember it with respect to this one.
Question. And what were the conversations you had about other contributions being returned?
Answer. At different times when different amounts or different people came up, I remember the Gandhi contribution as one, we would try to, you know, once it was sort of in the press or publicly a question was raised about it, we would try to determine whether or not there was any basis for the story, Gandhi's being—whether or not he had ever pled or made a claim in a court in California that he had no money and that he was living off the credit card of an uncle or cousin or anybody. And if we determined that there was a basis for it, we would, you know, agree that the money should be returned because there was a question as to whether or not that money was either the money of the person who gave it, or in the case of a U.S. subsidiary, whether it came from a legal entity.
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Question. Were you aware of—with Mr. Gandhi, were you aware of him trying to set up a meeting at the White House?
Answer. Yes. Well, I don't know if I was aware. I was aware at one time that Mr. Gandhi wanted to present the President with this peace prize and give him $100,000, I believe it was. And in the Counsel's Office I was involved in discussions as to whether or not we would do it or not. And the decision was that we would not take the money or direct the money go to charity or do anything with respect to the money.
I think we learned that Bush and Reagan and others had taken the peace prize, the prize, and so we were prepared to accept it. Again, I didn't have any details with scheduling it or whether it was going to be scheduled at the White House or anything else. I was involved in the legal discussions as to whether or not we could accept it, and whether we could accept the money or whether we should accept the money.
Question. Were you aware of the DNC objecting to the President's meeting with Gandhi?
Answer. No.
Question. No one at the White House ever told you about that?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you attend the event of May 13, 1996, that Mr. Gandhi gave the award to the President?
Answer. No.
Question. Along with I guess at some point gave a check to the DNC for $325,000?
Answer. No.
Question. Were you aware of Craig Livingstone arranging anything having to do with that?
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Answer. No. Would doubt it, but no.
Question. Would doubt——
Answer. That he had anything to do with it.
Question. In fact, he did make some arrangements, and that's been reported, that he made some arrangements to—did some advancement with Mr. Gandhi.
Answer. Made arrangements or did something for the event?
Mr. BALLEN. Is there a question?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you have any knowledge otherwise——
Answer. No. No. No. I'm not sure what Craig did, but arranging for people to see the President was not one of them.
Question. And I presume you still don't know who hired him?
Answer. I don't.
Question. Are you aware of any discussions in the White House Counsel's office, you know, in the past months about Mr. Gandhi and about how this meeting was set up, any new information that you had learned about this meeting at the hotel?
Answer. No. I mean, the discussions about whether or not we could accept the award or should accept the award and/or the contribution or $100,000, I was involved in some discussion.
Once the decision was made that we would not accept the money and that we could accept the award, I had no more involvement.
Question. Do you have any idea how the $325,000 to the DNC came up?
Answer. No.
Question. Because it was going to be $100,000 that they wanted to give to the President, or I guess to the President's charity?
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Answer. Well, they wanted to give it to the President. That clearly was unacceptable. And then the question was whether or not we would could accept it and designate a charity. And the legal consequences, we decided, of that were the same as his accepting the contribution, which was that we weren't going to do it.
So, no, once we made a legal decision that we were not going to take the money, that was end of it as far as I knew. I never knew he made a contribution to the DNC until after the fact.
Mr. BALLEN. Nor, as the question implies otherwise, did you notice there was any connection between the $325,000 and the $100,000?
The WITNESS. Right. Other than just a pure legal decision as to whether or not we would accept a peace prize from this guy, I was involved in no discussions about, you know, when, if, you know, whether or not, even once we made the legal decision that we could, whether we would. And I certainly didn't know anything about any money or any connection between the money and the prize.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And you weren't aware, then, of any National Security Council concerns about meeting with Mr. Gandhi?
Answer. No.
Mr. BALLEN. Asked and answered. Objection.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I'm wondering, in terms of the President meeting with Mr. Gandhi in a DNC fund-raiser, were you aware of anyone at the DNC ever trying to check out if it was okay for the President to meet with him in this fund-raising context?
Answer. No. I mean, I didn't know he met with him. I didn't know he was going to meet with him. I didn't know anybody had arranged it or anything about it.
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Question. So once you were done with the work in the counsel's office on Gandhi, you didn't know about this other fund-raising?
Answer. Right.
Question. Until you read about it in the paper?
Answer. Yeah, until—yeah, after the fact, yes, that's probably right.
Question. Did you know of Craig Livingstone being in touch with DNC people about campaign events?
Answer. No.
Question. So you have no knowledge of anything he had to do with facilitating this meeting?
Answer. No. Craig Livingstone started out as an advance person. I could see the White House using Craig to advance a local event. But——
Mr. BALLEN. Do you know, sir?
The WITNESS. No. But again, I can't imagine him having a role other than an advance person in any of this. I take that back. I did go to an Orioles ball game one time and Craig was one of the advance people. So I do know that, at least to an Orioles baseball game, we did use Craig Livingstone as an advance person.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Didn't he go on a Russia trip, too?
Answer. Not that I'm aware of.
Question. Now, during the campaign, the issues of John Huang came up and there was some interest in his fund-raising. Can you just generally describe to us how you learned about some of the problem contributions that John Huang had solicited and any discussions that you had about that? If you could just walk us through.
Answer. I don't know if I can. Basically, I think most of what we have learned was in the press. We were usually trying to find out whether or not factually it was correct and then trying to make a decision with respect to how to respond—how to respond, whether or not we should return the funds or not.
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Question. During this time, were you traveling with the President?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Did you ever talk with the President about these matters?
Answer. Doubt it.
Question. Did he ever say, you know, ''Get to the bottom of this'' or, ''I want to find out what's''—you know, ''Let's get this cleared up''?
Answer. Again, I don't recall. I mean, it would have been more on a case-by-case basis if he did. I mean, he might see an article and say, ''What do you know about this?'' But again, it was never sort of an—I don't recall, at least to me, a general ''Let's get to the bottom of this.'' It seemed more like we were responding to other people's press accounts and trying—we were trying to follow up after the fact as opposed to ever getting ahead of it.
Question. Do you recall discussing the issue of the $450,000 that was contributed by the Widjajas? The husband was the gardener and they were the——
Answer. Yes.
Question. Who did you have a conversation with about that?
Answer. Probably Harold and maybe Jane.
Question. Do you recall what that discussion involved?
Answer. I think at the time we thought it was appropriate. We thought they had the ability to make the contributions and that they were legally in this country and, therefore, entitled to make the contributions.
Question. And what was that based on?
Answer. I think that we knew, at some point we knew that she was the daughter of someone who—you know, a very wealthy Indonesian businessman, and therefore had wealth or had money.
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Question. Did you have knowledge of them living in the country at the time when they were making the contributions?
Answer. I think we did. I think we thought they lived in Virginia. I thought there were pictures of the house they lived in. First of all, I don't think describing him as a gardener is quite right. I think he had a degree in——
Mr. KANJORSKI. Architecture.
The WITNESS. Architecture. But, you know, I think the DNC, it came up and tried to determine whether or not there was a basis for returning the contributions, and at the time determined there was not.
Later, when they left and went back to Indonesia or Jordan to renew or maintain their status, a different decision was made. But the different decision I think was we had no basis for questioning those contributions.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you know who was working on those matters at the DNC at that time?
Answer. Joe Sandler probably. Who else, I don't know.
Question. Do you recall talking with Mr. Sandler during that time?
Answer. Probably. I mean, I talked to Joe a lot during this period, you know, working through the various issues and problems and questions.
Question. And this was not an effort to reach out to John Huang to ask him about the contributions, in particular like the Widjajas' contributions?
Answer. I didn't reach out to John. Whether or not they did or not I don't know the answer to.
Question. Did you learn of some conversations that Joe Sandler had with John Huang about these contributions?
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Answer. Again, you would have to be more specific than that for me.
Question. I'm just trying to walk us generally through what you were learning about at that time.
Answer. I think I did. I mean, generally, I learned that these people were in the country, they were legally in the country, they had in our judgment the ability to make the contributions; and, therefore, we knew no reason why the contributions should be returned.
You know, I didn't learn that in one conversation. I learned that over a period of time. That was basically the information I learned. Now how much of that I learned from Joe or Harold, or how much Harold learned from Joe was based upon conversations with John Huang, I don't know if I can tell you. But, basically, that's the information I learned.
Question. Do you recall if there were ever any conversations with John Huang about the Choeng Am contribution, which by October had been returned?
Answer. Again, I don't—I don't—I don't think I ever had any conversations. Whether or not anybody else at the DNC—anybody at the DNC would have had a conversation with them, I don't know.
Question. In light of that $250,000 contribution which John Huang was associated with having solicited having been returned, was there any concern that some of the other money he was raising may not be legitimate?
Answer. I don't think at that point, no. You know, it is not that unusual that an American subsidiary gives a check, and, you know, on its face it looks proper; and then you learn that the American subsidiary didn't have a domestic operation and therefore could not have generated the money locally, and so you therefore return that contribution.
In my mind, that did not trigger any sort of greater concern about every other contribution.
Question. And during this time, were you aware of people in the Counsel's Office and back at the White House, while you were traveling, pulling up documents on John Huang and the Riadys and things like that to evaluate what the context was with the President?
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Answer. Well, almost all those requests—all of those attempts were in response to press requests. So if there was a press account—and again, I don't quite remember whether different issues became important—but if there were press inquiries about how many times have the Riadys been to the White House or how many times did John Huang go, yes, there were attempts made at the Counsel's Office to gather that information so that we could respond to those requests.
Question. And to your knowledge, who was involved in that?
Answer. Jane Sherburne was involved, most of the people in her group were involved. Cheryl Mills was involved to some extent. And I guess Jack Quinn, if Jack was counsel at that point, would be involved.
Question. And were they faxing you materials on the road or anything like that?
Answer. No. I mean, I sat in San Antonio on the phone for an hour and a half and took down longhand every one of John Huang's visits to the White House, I think. But it usually was not a form that could be easily faxed. It was usually taken off of these. They had just gone through the WAVE records, sort of like frankly that sheet you showed me where they simply went through all the WAVE records and tried to come up with the number of visits and things.
Question. Did you talk with people at the White House about the number of visits Mr. Huang had had?
Answer. I don't remember whether John Huang came up. There was a story that was reported in the press that had some number that was taken from primarily the——
Question. Secret Service records?
Answer. Yeah. That was sort of out there. And then we went back in trying to verify that and came up with the two John Huangs and tried to separate out which John Huang was which, which involved many times going to the people that waved him in and asking them ''Which John Huang did you wave in?'' and trying to get information. So I don't recall whether that was in October or November.
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Question. Late October.
Answer. Okay. Well, then, yes, I was involved. And they would be passing that information to me, and in some sort of general form.
Question. And did you discuss this with the President at all?
Answer. We did—I did on the John Huang one.
Question. And what did you tell him?
Answer. It was mostly factual, I think. I told him, you know, this is what we've been able to find. He has been to the White House X number of times. He saw you X number of times. Those appeared to be for the following events. He went to the California event. He wasn't at the Asian-American event. He went to this event. He saw, you know, Maria Haley X number of times. He saw Mark Middleton X number of times.
It was mostly just very factual.
Question. Were you aware of anyone going to Mark Middleton to find out what he was meeting with John Huang about?
Answer. I don't know if we went to Mark Middleton or not. We tried to go to everybody that was on the list. Now, most of the time we went to people who were still in the White House, and Mark wasn't. But, yeah, we were trying to find out. The press was asking why were these people here and what were they—what was John Huang here for and who was he seeing and what were they discussing. And the only way we knew how to do that was go back to the people and say, ''You waved John Huang in. What was he here for? What were you discussing? Why did you see him?''
Question. Do you know who talked to Mark Middleton or if anybody did?
Answer. I have no idea.
Question. So you have no knowledge about what Mark Middleton was meeting with John Huang for?
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Answer. No.
Question. Did you get a sense from the other people who were talked to what John Huang was meeting with people for?
Answer. In general, yeah. You know, I mean, he met with some of the Asians about Asian appointments. Once he was at Commerce, he came to a number of meetings within the area of his responsibilities at Commerce. We knew what he had met with the President about because most of them were public events, when he was waved in to go to a public event for—it was either the September 13th meeting or September 15th meeting, or we learned that he had met with Harold shortly after that.
We were able to reconstruct, if you will, you know, as best we could, who he met with and in general, to the extent people remembered, what they discussed.
Question. Did you have an understanding of during 1996, when he was working at the DNC, what he was meeting with people about?
Answer. I don't remember—I don't remember how many times he came to the White House. If you showed me how many times he came and who he met with, I might be able to tell you. My guess is, to the extent he was there it was probably related to the political department, was meeting with people on Asian-American politics.
Question. But was it at all connected with fund-raising, was your understanding?
Answer. Again, I don't know if I had that sort of knowledge. The only people he would probably be meeting with on fund-raising would be people like Harold. So if he was meeting with people like Melinda Yee—she wasn't there. Depending on who he was meeting with, my guess is most of it was not fund-raising related.
Question. We have a number of different documents. I'm just going to show you—I don't have an extra copy, and I'm not going to represent this is, you know, accurate, but what this is is, we've gone through—and actually, it is accurate. But we've gone through both the WAVE records and Secret Service records and compiled a combination of lists.
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But, as we've previously discussed, prior to June '95 there weren't any Secret Service records of people coming in and out. So these are a combination of both the Secret Service and the WAVE records, and sometimes one will pick them up and the other doesn't.
Answer. Does it eliminate the wrong John Huang?
Question. No, it does not.
Mr. BALLEN. If you're going to show it to the witness, I'd like it to be made part of the record.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. One of the things that is on there is the person, the visitee and the requester, so to the extent that that assists at all and refreshes your recollection.
Answer. In '96 this reflects a number of visits with Matsui and somebody in Presidential Personnel, who I believe probably worked for Weaver, Vanessa Weaver. And then it has a 3-15-96 with the Vice President. That may be the one that's been in the press this week, 3-27-96 with the President. I don't know what that is. That's probably a public—some sort of an event, not a meeting.
Question. And I can check. This is presidential visits to which Mr. Huang was invited. That's only the presidential visits. It doesn't include everybody else.
Answer. Yes. DNC dinner is 3-27-96.
Question. And this is also U.S. Secret Service WAVE records for entry into the White House complex, also. So those are two documents we received from the White House that provide some assistance?
Answer. Again, almost all of the visits in '96, except for one with Ickes on 3-29-96 in which there is no TOA, POA, which I think means time of arrival, so that probably means he didn't come, almost all of them are with people in Personnel except for the ones with the Vice President and two with the President, both of which appear to be DNC-related dinners and coffees.
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So, again, just looking at this, it would suggest to me that none of these meetings were fund-raising related.
Question. In other words——
Mr. BALLEN. Can we make that part of the record?
The WITNESS. Sure, absolutely.
Ms. COMSTOCK. This?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes. You were showing it to the witness, so it is clear what he's referring to in the testimony.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. Make that Deposition Exhibit 21. Then make the other two 22 and 23.
Mr. BALLEN. Which one is 22?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Make the one presidential events 22 and the other one that has ''draft'' across it is 23. They are both White House documents.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–21 was marked for identification.]
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–22 was marked for identification.]
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–23 was marked for identification.]
The WITNESS. Again, without any knowledge what those meetings are about, just from who they saw, they would not appear to me to be fund-raising related at all.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you know Vanessa Weaver, who is in the Personnel Office?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Do you know if anyone determined what Mr. Huang was meeting with her about?
Answer. I assume they tried to talk to her or did talk to her. I don't know the answer to that.
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Question. Do you know anything that she was working on with Mr. Huang?
Answer. Again, I don't know, no. She was involved in personnel. Whether it was, you know, making recommendations for Asian-American personnel. Vanessa Weaver is also Vernon Weaver's daughter. So, to the extent they may have had a personal relationship because Vernon worked for Stevens and was connected with the Riadys through Stevens, they may have had a personal relationship. But, again, I don't know.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I'm sorry. You were indicating——
Answer. I was just indicating, Ken has been chastising me correctly for speculating, and I am again speculating.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I would just like the record to reflect the gestures that were happening.
The WITNESS. I was indicating to him that——
Ms. COMSTOCK. Ken was indicating to the witness not to——
The WITNESS. He wasn't indicating to me, I was indicating to him that, again, if the question was all of that is pure speculation, the answer would be yes. I don't know what—I'm sure someone who tried, probably I think tried, spoke with Vanessa about what those meetings were about. I don't know what they were about.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I just wanted to show the witness a group of documents from the White House which——
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me. Do you have an extra one?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yes. It's EOP 4943—actually, we probably should separate these out. Why don't we go to EOP 4056, which is in the middle of the stack, 4056 through 60, and it's a November 26, 1996 memo to Leon Panetta and Erskine Bowles from Jane Sherburne regarding White House statements re Riady meetings.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. In this memo, Jane Sherburne goes through her understanding of the development of White House statements related to the meetings between the President and James Riady. I just wanted to go through that with you. The second sentence in her memo, she indicates that ''In early October 1996, Mark Fabiani reported to me that the Wall Street Journal was working on a story about the President's relationship with the Riady family, John Huang and the Lippo Group.''
Do you recall if you learned about that in early October of '96?
Answer. At some point Jane came to me and asked me about the meetings, so I think I learned about it when she came and asked me about the meetings.
Question. Okay. And it indicates, because it says, ''On checking records of meetings with the President, Miriam Nemetz reported to me that there were at least two White House meetings: one in April 1993 that lasted about 5 minutes and a 20 minute meeting in the Oval Office in September 1995.''
Do you recall generally that Jane and Miriam were checking on records in early October 1996?
Answer. No, I wasn't aware of that until Jane came to me and told me what they had—what the records reflected.
Question. Okay. And so Jane came to you at some point in October?
Answer. Yes, probably.
Question. And told you that they had been reviewing records about Riady and John Huang?
Answer. I think she said that—she indicated to me that they showed two White House meetings with the President, and I told her that there was at least one additional White House meeting, and I also told her about the meeting in Jakarta.
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Question. So you told her about the meeting at the hotel in November of 1994 in Jakarta that you had previously described today?
Answer. Right.
Question. And that's reflected in the bottom of the first paragraph here?
Answer. Right. This says a social event in Jakarta. We also attended, while we were there, we stopped by a dinner that the governor of Jakarta, I guess, was having for the hospital, and it was in the same hotel that we were staying in, so we stopped by that on the way back from a dinner that the President attended which was part of APEC. We stopped by that and said hello to the Arkansans and the Indonesians who were at the dinner, and James Riady was at that dinner. So he saw him at least twice in Jakarta, once at the meeting with Mochtar in the suite and once at this dinner that we stopped by.
Question. Okay. Do you recall, though, in October, in early October, had you told Jane about—she says the President also had a brief encounter with Riady at a social event in Jakarta. Do you recall if you just told her about the sort of stop-by at this bigger event, or if you also told her about the hotel meeting?
Answer. I don't recall whether I told her about both or one, or I don't remember.
Question. And then it indicates that you also had told her about the September 1995 meeting; is that correct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And then she goes on to say that she consulted with you about how to describe these meetings. Do you recall that?
Answer. Well, the ordering, in my memory, is different from Jane's. I think in that same time that we were discussing those meetings, I told her about the additional meeting, the whatever it is, September of '96 meeting. Is that right?
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Question. The limo meeting?
Answer. No, I don't know anything about a limo meeting, but good try. The meeting in the Oval Office with James Riady in September, I believe, of '96.
Question. Okay. And did you describe these as social visits to Ms. Sherburne?
11Answer. Again, I don't remember whether I did in that conversation. She was upset or concerned that she didn't have this last meeting, and so I don't remember whether we got into much discussion or if she went out to find out whether there was, in fact, a third White House meeting.
Question. She was upset she didn't know about the September 9th Oval Office meeting?
Answer. Is that the date, September 9, 1996?
Question. Yes.
Answer. Yes, she did not know about that. And so I don't remember whether we described the two meetings that I attended in that conversation or whether she immediately left, as I said.
By the way, there was also a third meeting that I attended, or a second meeting that I attended, but a third meeting. I was unaware of it until she told me about the April 3 meeting. I think she then left to try to find out why they didn't have a record of the third meeting. She came back later, she called me later, I think, and told me that in fact Nancy had told Miriam about the third meeting and it just hadn't gotten written down.
She asked me what happened at the two meetings I attended, and I didn't describe them to her in terms of saying they were social. I told her what happened, so I described what occurred at the meetings.
Question. And did you both agree on how to describe them?
Answer. She asked me how I thought they should be described and I said I thought they should be described as social.
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Question. And what did she say?
Answer. I think—I don't know if she agreed with that. She reflects here that she told Mark to describe them as social. But at the time she was aware of not only my description of the meeting but of the substance of the meetings.
Question. Now, she says, ''He said they were social visits. Nancy Hernreich confirmed that the April 1993 meeting had been simply to say hello. Accordingly, I instructed Fabiani to describe the meetings as casual, drop-by visits, primarily social in nature.''
Is it your testimony, then, that you didn't just say they were social visits; that you, in fact, went into detail and described them at some point?
Answer. I described them in much the same way that I described them to you, or at least the September 13th meeting to you, in saying that they dropped by, that they had this conversation, that the only thing I could recall from the conversation was John Huang indicating an interest in going to the DNC.
Question. Did she tell you that John Huang had refused to discuss that September 13th meeting with Joe Sandler?
Answer. I don't think so. I don't think at this time, no.
Question. Did you learn at some point that he had refused to discuss that with Joe Sandler?
Answer. No, I don't know if I knew that or not. But again, it wasn't just the September 13th, 1995 meeting. I also described to her the September 9, 1996 meeting.
Question. So your recollection is you described the September 9th, 1996 meeting.
Answer. Yes.
Question. And what was your understanding of what that meeting was?
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Answer. Again, that it was basically a social meeting, that at the end of the meeting as they were leaving, that Riady indicated to the President, I believe as they were standing up to leave, that he thought that our policy with respect to China was a correct policy and that he urged the President to stay engaged.
Question. Do you know how the September 9th, 1996 meeting came about?
Answer. I believe when we were—I don't know how. I mean I assume the Riady—James Riady made a request for it. I was asked—Nancy called me one time when we were on the road and said that James Riady was going to be in town sometime in early September and did the President—and wanted to see the President and was the President willing to see him. And I think I asked the President, do you want to see James Riady when he's in town, and he said, sure, for a few minutes. But I mean, again, the request had come from the Riadys.
Question. Okay. So you asked the President if he wanted to see Mr. Riady pursuant to Nancy Hernreich's request, and he said sure?
Answer. Yeah. James Riady apparently had called the President—had called Nancy and said that he was coming to town and he would like to see the President. The President—wanted to know whether or not she should set it up, so she called me to ask the President on this trip whether or not, you know, he wanted to see him, and the President said fine.
Question. Were you aware of Mark Middleton also making that request on behalf of Mr. Riady to anybody at the White House?
Answer. Let me take it back. I don't know—I don't know that James Riady called. A request was made to the White House on behalf of James Riady. I don't know whether James made it directly or Mark Middleton or, you know, someone else made it. All I know is that Nancy called me and said that James had made a request. Now, whether that James had personally made the request or Mark Middleton had made a request on his behalf, but James had made a request to see the President, and did the President want to see him.
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Question. All right. Did you have experience in the past of Mark Middleton making requests for James Riady?
Answer. Huh?
Question. Did you have experience in the past of Mark Middleton making requests on behalf of Mr. Riady?
Answer. No, I didn't. Again, I don't know if I knew at this time that he had made a request on behalf of Mr. Riady.
Question. Did you have any knowledge of Mr. Middleton working with the Riadys in any capacity?
Answer. No, not at that time.
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me, counsel. If I may interject at this point, it is now 20 after 3, and we had—my understanding is we had agreed to a 3:30 termination.
Ms. COMSTOCK. We had not agreed to a 3:30 termination.
Mr. BALLEN. Could I finish my sentence? Would that be possible? You can say whatever you want. I would like a chance to say something here today uninterrupted, at least one time.
We had agreed to a 3:30 termination, as I was saying, and the Minority, we have been going since 10 o'clock with very short breaks. The Minority has about 10 minutes worth of questions that we would like to ask before this deposition is terminated, and it is now 20 after 3.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Let the record reflect that the Minority counsel was uninterrupted, but inaccurate. We did not agree to a 3:30 termination time. When we set up this deposition, we did indicate that it would go most of the day and did not agree to any termination point other than when we were completed with the questioning.
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Mr. MURRAY. Well, as you know, Ms. Comstock, we have requested, because of Mr. Lindsey's other duties, that we adjourn this afternoon so that he can get back to work. However, he would be willing to finish this line of questioning about this subject, which is I guess the subject of the various meetings with the Riadys at the White House and Ms. Sherburne's take on that and all of the correspondence that was engendered as a result. And Mr. Lindsey would be willing to sit and finish this line of questioning, and then allow the Minority to ask whatever questions they have about this matter or any other matters that have gone previous.
So can we do that?
Ms. COMSTOCK. We still do have matters related to Charlie Trie to go into, too, which I don't think will be too lengthy, the meetings you had on May 9th with Mr. Cardozo regarding Mr. Trie.
The WITNESS. Maybe we could try to do this and then look at the timing and see whether or not it is 3:45 or 4:45, and then decide whether to go into Charlie Trie today or another time.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. Well, I'll—I would like to finish up today.
Mr. KANJORSKI. What is the estimated time on the other two?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Well, we are going to, I guess, continue to go through these documents.
Mr. KANJORSKI. This is to wind up visits by Riadys, but then you will have another series of questions you are interested in. My question is, how long do you anticipate they will take?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Well, it depends on the witness's knowledge of Charlie Trie, which I'm not fully aware of.
Mr. MURRAY. Well, I've gone through this process with the Senate, which I understand the House people are not privy to when what the Senate has done, but I don't think it took the Senate too long to get through the Charlie Trie matter. So perhaps you all can do as well.
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Mr. KANJORSKI. Well, we will move through this and then go to the Minority questions.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. And maybe we can go back to the Charlie Trie matters, depending on where we are in time.
Mr. KANJORSKI. Mr. Lindsey may have nothing to do, but I have a schedule.
The WITNESS. What was your question?
Mr. MURRAY. The only one with nothing to do, Congressman, are all the lawyers sitting here. We have nothing better to do.
Mr. KANJORSKI. That's right.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Well, now we have.
The WITNESS. You had asked me about what role I knew Mark Middleton had played, and I told you I knew no role or relationship with Mark Middleton with Mr. Riady at the time.
Mr. BALLEN. There was no question pending.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I did not interrupt the question.
Mr. MURRAY. Let the record so reflect.
Mr. BALLEN. There you go.
The WITNESS. Anyway, we were walking through this document.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay. While we are addressing this, on this topic, this is regarding the September 6th, '96 meeting. This is a memo to Mack McLarty from Mark Middleton. It's CCH 000157, and it's dated September 6th, 1996.
And in this memo, Mr. Middleton is thanking Mr. McLarty for his expeditious assistance and indicates the meeting participant was staying at the Four Seasons Hotel in New York, was going to be arriving in Washington, D.C., and he was trying to facilitate a Monday meeting. We have had testimony that this memo was regarding Mr. Riady, in setting up this meeting in September of '96 with Mr. Riady.
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Does that refresh your recollection as to whether or not Mr. Middleton or Mr. McLarty or somebody else was involved in setting up this meeting for Mr. Riady with the President?
Answer. Nancy Hernreich called me. I don't know who talked to Nancy Hernreich. Nancy Hernreich called me, told me that James Riady would like to see the President, and did the President want to see James Riady.
Question. Ms. Hernreich never indicated to you that Mack McLarty had forwarded the request to her on behalf of Mr. Riady, or Mr. Middleton or anything like that?
Answer. No.
Mr. BALLEN. Have you ever seen this document before, sir?
The WITNESS. No, sir.
Ms. COMSTOCK. We will make that Deposition Exhibit No. 24.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–24 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Were you aware of any visit that the President had several weeks before this with Mr. Riady where they hadn't completed a conversation and that that's why Mr. Riady wanted to arrange this appointment?
Answer. No.
Question. Did the President indicate to you when you asked him about the meeting with James Riady whether or not he had talked to Mr. Riady recently?
Answer. No.
Question. Were you aware of Mr. Riady being at a dinner on July 30th, 1996, a small dinner that included Mr. Huang and Mr. Riady, Mr. Fowler, just a small group of other people?
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Answer. No.
Question. Were you aware of the President meeting with Mr. Riady at all at the Olympics?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you travel with the President to the Olympics?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Did you have any knowledge of Mr. Riady being at the Olympics?
Answer. No.
Question. So you were actually present in this September 9th, 1996 meeting?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And who else was there?
Answer. Mark Middleton, James Riady and the President.
Question. So Mark Middleton was at the meeting on September 9th?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Did you know how he came to be at the meeting?
Answer. No. He came with Mr. Riady, but I don't know—you know, I don't know any more about it than that.
Question. Did you know why he was there with Mr. Riady?
Answer. No.
Question. Was that normal?
Answer. Normal? I mean there were two meetings of this nature in 4 years. The other one had John Huang and Joe Giroir and Riady's wife. This one had Mark Middleton. These were basically drop-by, social visits. You know, if Mark was with James, you know, then it would not be unusual for him to stop by with him. Again, these were not policy discussions or specifically related to any matter, they were just drop-by because James was in town.
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Question. Well, we have had other testimony indicating this was a follow-up to a previous meeting. You know nothing about that?
Answer. I know nothing about that.
Question. And generally, what was discussed in the meeting was?
Answer. They discussed, again, they talked about social sort of things, family, what they were doing. James asked the President, made some comment to the President about how—had he given any thought to what he was going to do after he was President because he'd be so young. And they talked about, you know, staying involved and sort of Jimmy Carter-type ex-presidency, former presidency or post presidency versus a more Reagan or Bush type. I mean, it was just general chitchat like that.
Then at the end of the meeting, as whoever came in to sort of tell the President that his next meeting was waiting or it was time to break up, people sort of stood up and, as I indicated earlier, James said something as he was leaving to the effect of I think you made the right decision on MFN and I hope you will stay engaged in China.
Question. And what did the President say during this meeting?
Mr. MURRAY. In response to that comment?
The WITNESS. He may have said thank you. I don't know if he said anything. It was not sort of the comment—it was not a discussion point, it was simply, you know, a—you know, I think you made the right decision and I think you should stay engaged. I think in response to earlier stuff, he probably said that he hoped to be an active former President.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And did Mark Middleton participate in this discussion at all?
Answer. I don't remember if Mark said anything in the meeting. I mean, he was there but I don't remember him saying anything.
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Question. Did you say anything?
Answer. Probably not.
Question. So was this basically a discussion between Mr. Riady and the President?
Answer. Yes. I mean, it was basically a social visit between the two of them.
Question. And there was no reference to a previous meeting that they had, continuing on a conversation, nothing to that effect?
Answer. No.
Mr. BALLEN. For the record, that's the third time that was asked and answered.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'm just trying to assist the witness in reconciling this with previous testimony.
The WITNESS. My previous testimony?
Ms. COMSTOCK. No, previous testimony from other witnesses, if he has any knowledge about how that refreshes his recollection as to anything that may have been said that seemed to be a continuation, that you didn't know how the topic came up.
Mr. BALLEN. Where is the previous testimony to refresh the witness's—to try to reconcile? Where is the previous testimony?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Mr. McLarty had testified that this meeting was set up to follow up on a previous meeting that the President and Mr. Riady had had, which apparently this witness is not familiar with, so——
Mr. MURRAY. Well, Mr. Lindsey's recollection is not refreshed by your recollection to whatever it was that Mr. McLarty said.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
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Question. Did you ever talk to Mr. McLarty about this meeting?
Answer. No, not that I recall.
Question. Either before or after the meeting?
Answer. Not that I recall, no.
Question. Okay. On the next page it reads that during the same time period, Fabiani had been asked whether the President and Riady had a private conversation in a limousine somewhere around the time of the summer Olympics during which they discussed policy toward China.
Do you recall discussing that with Ms. Sherburne?
Answer. No. Jane asked me whether or not the President had ever met in a limousine with Riady, and I told her I had no earthly idea.
Question. Did anyone ever ask the President about that?
Answer. I don't know. I didn't.
Question. All right.
Answer. I did say to her, you know, that if they were having a conversation outside in the open, that the Secret Service could well have urged them to get inside of the limo because the Secret Service gets very nervous for the President to stand around outside having conversations. I did not confirm that Riady had sat with the President in his limousine following a political dinner in Washington sometime since the Olympics, because I had no earthly idea whether that was the case.
Question. So that sentence here is inaccurate?
Answer. That's correct. The only thing I said to her was it would not surprise me, again, that if they were standing outside talking, that the Service might ask them to get inside of the limo in order to complete the conversation because they don't like him standing around in the open air.
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Now, ''He did not know what they had discussed, and said it likely was private only because the Secret Service would have been uncomfortable with the President standing outside in the open air,'' again, I told her I had no idea whether they had met, I had no knowledge that they had met. If they had—if there had been a dinner, she may have told me that there was a dinner that he attended. And I told her if there was a dinner and if they were standing outside talking, it is quite likely that they were asked to get in the limo as opposed to standing outside.
Question. Are you aware of anyone at the White House checking any records about this matter, about the limo meeting, the alleged limo meeting?
Answer. I don't know anything about a limo meeting. I think there was an event at one of the hotels in D.C. around the end of July.
Question. July 30th.
Answer. Okay. That Riady attended. But, you know, again, I wasn't at that dinner, I don't know whether he was at that dinner. I don't know anything about it. But I do think the records reflect that he attended a dinner around the end of July.
Question. But your testimony is, then, that you never spoke with the President about what may have been this other meeting that Mr. Fabiani had been asked about?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay. And then in the second paragraph it indicates that ''On October 10 or 11, I asked Records Management to pull all the Riady correspondence.''
Do you recall discussing the Riady correspondence with Ms. Sherburne?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And what did you discuss?
Answer. She brought the correspondence to the Albuquerque debate prep and she showed it to me. It was the first time I had seen it. She suggested that she thought that referring to the meetings as social, given this piece of correspondence, would not be believed, and therefore we should change our description of the meeting to reflect something more than just a social conversation.
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I told her I thought that was crazy, that I didn't see how a 1993 letter from Mochtar Riady could or should change two conversations that I participated in in 1995 and 1996, and that I didn't think—I thought it was a mistake. I thought if we tried to recharacterize it, it would be mischaracterizing it.
She said the press would never believe, based on this letter, that these other meetings weren't—were only social and weren't more policy related, and I said I didn't care what they believed, that was the fact.
Question. Was it your understanding when you responded to the press inquiries that they were only interested in the meetings that you had had with the Riadys, or that they generally wanted to know what the meetings with the Riadys and the President were about?
Answer. There were only three that I was aware of, private meetings, one of which I did not attend, which was described as a photo op in April of 1993; one in September of '95; and one in September of '96. So I was at the only two real, if you don't include the photo op, meetings that occurred, so other than the President of the United States, I was probably the best person to describe what happened at those meetings, you know, in terms of being able to describe them.
Again, she knew at the time, she was aware of what happened at those two meetings. It was only in light of the letter that she thought that the press would not accept our explanation as to what those two meetings were about.
Question. Okay. And then she indicates in the last paragraph at the bottom that there was a conference call on handling it, handling the Riady matter, which included you. The other participants were Harold Ickes, Joe Sandler, Amy Weiss-Tobe, and Joe Lockhardt.
Do you recall that conference call?
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Answer. We have conference calls almost every day, so whether or not we had a conference call in which we discussed the inquiries of various people, what the DNC or the White House was getting—so it's quite possible we had a conference call in which we talked about the inquiries of—about the Riady visits.
Question. And one of the sentences here says, ''I believe this was the call in which Fabiani also expressed the view that the press did not expect a detailed explanation until after the election.''
Did you have a discussion about, you know, when—wait until after the election to discuss the full——
Answer. No.
Question. Picture on this?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay.
Answer. The next sentence is correct: ''Bruce reiterated his concern about overstating the significance of the meetings.''
Again, my position from day one was that an April or March, whatever the date is, letter, 1993 letter to the President from Mochtar Riady could not and should not have anything to do with how we described two meetings with James Riady 2-1/2, 3 years later.
Question. At this time were you aware of the amount of donations that the Riadys had given to the DNC?
Answer. When? In '96 or 1992?
Question. Well, were you aware of the total donations that had been given in 1992 or '96?
Answer. No.
Question. You had no idea on the numbers or the figures?
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Answer. No.
Question. Did you have any knowledge of the amount of money that they had given to the Inaugural?
Answer. No, I don't think so.
Question. Was there ever any discussion of the amount of donations that the Riady family had made to the DNC and to the Presidential Inaugural Committee?
Answer. No, no. What would it have to do with these two meetings? I mean, you know, Riady and Clinton were on friendly terms so, you know, the President saw him not because he gave money to the DNC or to the Inaugural, but because they had a relationship going back to when James had business interests in Arkansas.
Question. And would they be considered longtime friends? When we talked before, not just in the context of what was previously indicated, that maybe the use of ''long-term friends'' by politicians doesn't really mean friends, was this a real friendship or——
Answer. You know, I don't quite know—I mean, you know, in my world a real friend is a guy you have over to your house for a beer, and you sit around and you talk and you go to movies together, and you do things like that. In that sort of world, no, the Riadys would not be real friends. They saw the President, you know, if it wasn't as a social event, a fund-raising event or a White House type event, they saw the President two, three times in four years, okay?
Do they have a friendship? I mean, do they see each other as friends? Do they ask about, when they see each other, do they know what their wives' names are, maybe how many children they have and ask about them? Yes. You know, so they have that sort of relationship. But again, you know, it's degrees of friendships. They are not a close personal friend, but they clearly were friends.
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Question. The last line here reads, ''However, no one, including Bruce, disagreed that we needed to provide a fuller account of these meetings if press interest persisted.''
Is that true?
Answer. I don't know if that would have been true or not. I don't recall us having a discussion about whether we should go further. Again, I did express concern that I didn't think we should, in my judgment, mischaracterize these meetings based primarily on a three-year old letter.
Question. And then on the next page, EOP 4058 indicates on the top of the page that Joe Sandler had told Jane Sherburne that John Huang had refused to tell him about one of the subjects that had been discussed in his September 1995 meeting with the President, Bruce and Riady.
Do you recall discussing that with Jane?
Answer. Again, I think I told her that probably in one of the first conversations we had at about this time. I had probably a 30-minute telephone conversation with her in mid-October, prior to all of this, in which—or early to mid-October, in which I went through as much detail as I could remember about what the two meetings involved, and I think I had told her in that—at that time that in this meeting John Huang had raised going to the DNC.
Question. Did you ever talk to John Huang about these matters in this time frame, in October of 1996?
Answer. What matters?
Question. About the meetings that—the Riady meetings?
Answer. No, not that I recall, no.
Question. Or the September of '95 meeting?
Answer. No, I don't think so.
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Question. Were you aware of people trying to get in touch with them at the DNC—I mean people at the DNC trying to get in touch with him and not being able to find him?
Answer. I don't know if I was aware that the DNC wasn't able to find him. I was aware of the whole dispute about making himself available to the plaintiffs in the Commerce Department lawsuit, Judicial Watch lawsuit. I was aware of that.
Question. Did you have any discussions with him about that, or John Huang?
Answer. No.
Question. Or with anyone at the DNC?
Answer. Oh, I had a lot of discussions with people at the DNC.
Question. And what did you discuss with them about John Huang making himself available?
Answer. We agreed that John Huang would make himself available or he would be terminated.
Question. And were you aware of Mr. Huang going to the Hartford presidential debate? Did you see him at that event?
Answer. I don't recall seeing him at that debate.
Question. You never had any discussions with anyone about him being up there at that event?
Answer. I don't think so.
Question. Are you aware of him being at the White House at any time during this controversy, anyone talking to him at the White House?
Answer. I don't recall, no.
Question. Are you aware of Harold Ickes trying to get ahold of him?
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Answer. Separate and—no, I don't remember Harold trying to get ahold of him, separate and distinct. Harold was involved in many of the same conversations I was involved in about what the DNC's reaction should be if John didn't make himself available for the deposition.
Question. Were you aware of him traveling around to avoid the press or leaving Washington?
Answer. No. I had a sense—again, this is a sense—that the DNC knew where he was, he just wasn't going to make himself available for, you know, for the subpoena, but that he was calling in and that they, you know, either knew where he was or were talking to him, and they also knew who his lawyer was, and they communicated to his lawyer that if, you know, if he didn't make himself available to accept service on the subpoena, that he would be terminated.
Question. Was there any concern at the White House during that time that—I mean, there became sort of a, you know, ''Where's Waldo?'' kind of situation where he wasn't coming in and people are trying to find him, and it went on for about a week or so, trying to—is he going to return to Washington? Where is he? Do you recall any discussions about that?
Answer. No. I didn't have a sense that people at the DNC—I knew he was not making himself available to be served with a subpoena, but I didn't know that he was actively avoiding either the DNC or actively avoiding the service of the subpoena. He just wasn't going to voluntarily make himself available for it.
Question. Was the White House concerned about that, about him not making himself available for the subpoena?
Mr. BALLEN. I think the witness has already testified on this point.
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The WITNESS. The White House indicated to him that if he didn't make himself available to accept subpoena he would be terminated.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I know that was the final decision, but what were the discussions leading up to that?
Answer. This is all about 2 days. I don't know if there was all that discussion. The judge had called Joe Sandler down, had suggested to him that, you know, that the DNC—maybe Joe had indicated he didn't know where he was, said that the DNC had some sort of ability to find him. And with that, you know, we said the only ability we had was to tell him to show up for work on Monday and accept service or be terminated, and that we passed that word to his lawyer that, you know, if he didn't show up for work on Monday to accept service, he would be terminated.
Question. Did you have any discussions with the President about that?
Answer. No.
Question. Did the President ever express any concern to you that this was going on and becoming somewhat of an issue in the campaign?
Answer. Not that I recall. It got resolved in about 2-1/2, 3 days. It seemed like this was a Friday, and by Sunday he had accepted service and it was over, and by Wednesday they had taken his deposition and it was a nonevent. I mean there was a little coverage on it that night, but it didn't seem to me to be his—you know, his deposition seemed to be nothing earth-shattering.
Question. You don't recall any conversations with the President?
Answer. I don't believe I had any conversations with the President.
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Question. And Ms. Sherburne indicates, she quotes the L.A. Times report on October 16th where you indicated you weren't going to discuss what the September '95 meeting was about.
Answer. That's not quite true. I told them I wouldn't discuss any meeting that anybody had with the President of the United States with the press. You know, he said, ''What did they discuss?'' I said, ''I'm not going to talk to you about meetings that the President has and what's discussed.''
Question. And then did you—Ms. Sherburne writes about how she removed herself from this matter at some point. Did you have any discussions about her not being involved in these matters at that time?
Answer. She didn't remove herself from this matter. It became apparent that this was going to last beyond the election and beyond Jane's decision to leave the White House. And therefore, I think it was her decision that someone else who was going to be there, who could see it through, should pick it up, as opposed to her doing it and then leaving and having the person with all of the knowledge about it be gone. So it wasn't any sort of a—I mean it was more of this thing will not be resolved by the time I leave, and therefore, someone else ought to be handling it.
Question. And then she indicates that you had a discussion with Jack Quinn about this. Do you recall that discussion?
Answer. Where's that?
Question. It says, ''Harold discussed my concern with Bruce,'' about the middle of the paragraph there on the bottom, ''and reported back that Bruce had conferred with Jack Quinn and they agreed it was sensible for Fabiani and me to withdraw.''
Answer. Possible. I don't recall it.
Question. And then she indicates that she briefed you and Cheryl Mills on the information she had collected. Do you know who made the decision that you and Cheryl Mills should be the people addressing these matters?
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Answer. No.
Question. Did Jack Quinn make that decision, or did you all just kind of take them on?
Answer. Well, again, she may have briefed me. I don't think—I think Cheryl was actually involved in it. You know, I again was on the road 99 percent of the time. So other than to the extent that I was, you know, the person who knew something about at least two of the events, Cheryl really took it over.
Question. Okay. And then briefly, because the rest of the discussion is regarding the New York Times story that then followed and said there were disputes on how to characterize the Riady visits, you had—did you have a disagreement with Ms. Sherburne at this time on how to explain this to the New York Times?
Answer. I didn't know anybody was explaining it to the New York Times until I read it in the New York Times.
Question. Did you receive a copy of this memo that we are reviewing?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And we have another, EOP 8737, another——
Answer. What's it say at the top?
Mr. MURRAY. It says, ''Jack, this is mostly crap. Bruce.''
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. That is your handwriting?
Answer. That is my handwriting and that is my comments.
Ms. COMSTOCK. This is EOP 8737 through 41. I want to make the first one, EOP 4056 through 60, make that Deposition Exhibit No. 25. And then I'll make your copy, EOP 8737 through 41, Deposition Exhibit No. 26.
Page 1009 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–25 was marked for identification.]
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–26 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recall who gave you a copy of the memo?
Answer. I think Jane did.
Question. And did you discuss the memo with Jane?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you discuss it with Jack Quinn?
Answer. Other than writing my comments on it, no. I may have told him that personally I thought it was mostly crap.
Question. And what were you referring to there?
Answer. Well, we just went through my disagreements and differences with the factual statements here. I mean——
Question. Did you identify to Mr. Quinn or to anyone at the White House the points that you disagreed with?
Answer. Oh, you know, there was a whole series of discussions, most of which you have here. Jane called me in Australia when the New York Times story came out and told me that, you know, that she hadn't said what this said, that she wasn't the source for some of the information in here, that she and I never had a disagreement, and so on and so forth.
Answer. decision was made that Jane should write a letter to the editor of the New York Times outlining what she said happened. That letter never got written. Cheryl Mills—Jane had told me, she had told Maggie Williamson, she had told Cheryl Mills, she may have told David Kendall, she told all of these people that what was in the New York Times and the suggestions in the New York Times were not correct.
So Cheryl made an attempt, based upon what she had told all of those people, to write the letter that Jane wouldn't write. Jane then told Cheryl—you know, but that was based upon not only what she had told Cheryl and me but what she had told Maggie and Kendall and others—Jane said she couldn't sign that letter and wrote this memo.
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So at this point there had been an extensive, not with me personally, but an extensive back and forth about what Jane was telling us she had said and what I think is reflected in the letter to the editor and then what is reflected in this.
Question. And so the letter to the editor, which is EOP 4943 through 45, has a handwritten note, I believe, to Jane from Cheryl Mills?
Answer. Yes.
Question. That is her handwriting on the front of that page?
Answer. Yes.
Question. It's dated 11-22-96. It says, ''After talking with you yesterday about the letter you've been working on.'' Jane was working on a letter?
Answer. She said she was. I mean, no one ever saw it, but she claims for a period of time that she was writing this letter, and we thought time was slipping away and if you were going to respond to it, you should respond. We were hoping to respond by the Sunday paper, so that there would be a response in the Sunday paper. Time was slipping away, so Cheryl took her hand at drafting something.
Question. Did you work on this with Cheryl Mills?
Answer. I think she read it to me, but I don't know if I worked on it with her.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'll make that Deposition Exhibit No. 27.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–27 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Was it Mr. Fabiani who was discussing this with the New York Times? Is that the concern, about how he was characterizing it in some way?
Mr. MURRAY. Characterizing what?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Page 1011 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Question. Characterizing the meeting, what he had been told?
Answer. I don't know who—whether Mark Fabiani or Jane were talking to the New York Times. I don't know.
Question. Okay. And then EOP 4946 through 47 is another draft of the letter, which is dated 11-23-96. At the top it says, ''New draft reflects comments of Evelyn, McCurry and Lindsey.'' Do you know whose handwriting that is on the top of that version?
Answer. Maybe Cheryl's, but I can't tell.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'll make that Deposition Exhibit 28.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–28 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recall discussing this with Harold Ickes?
Answer. I don't recall.
Question. Because we have another copy of the November 26th memo. It's EOP 7378 through 82. It appears to have Harold Ickes' handwriting on it. Did you ever see a copy with Harold's handwriting?
Answer. No. The only copy of this memo I ever saw was the one that I got that I returned to Jack.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'll make this copy, which has Harold Ickes' handwriting on it, Deposition Exhibit No. 29.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–29 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Finally, this EOP 49—actually, I'm sorry. This is—during this time frame, did you have any discussions with the President about the characterizations of these meetings and the President clarifying it, as opposed to you or Ms. Sherburne qualifying it, how the meetings were characterized?
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Answer. Yes.
Question. Because the President had made statements in the New York Times; is that correct?
Answer. My understanding is that the President would characterize the meeting the same way I did.
Question. But did you have discussions with him about that?
Answer. I've had him tell me, ''I don't know how these people can characterize the meetings since you and I were the only two in them.''
Question. And then EOP 4948, which is a memo to Cheryl from Jane, it's 4950—I'm sorry, 4948 through 4950, to Cheryl Mills from Jane Sherburne. Did you get a copy of this November 26th, 1996 memo going through the letter to the editor?
Answer. No.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Let's make that Deposition Exhibit Number 30.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–30 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And we've also received these handwritten notes.
Answer. I may have seen this. Cheryl may have shown this to me. I just don't recall.
Question. Okay.
Mr. MURPHY. This being the November 26, '96, note from Jane to Cheryl.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Right, we just made it Deposition Exhibit Number 30.
The WITNESS. I did not receive a copy. Whether or not Cheryl had shown me a copy, I just don't recall.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay. And then there's some handwritten notes which I believe are Jane Sherburne's written notes, which are EOP 4061 through 63. Did you ever receive these notes for any reason?
Answer. No.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. Let's make that Deposition Exhibit Number 31.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–31 was marked for identification.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. And then there's a December 7th, 1996, memo for Jack Quinn from Cheryl Mills regarding the November 26th memo.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Did Ms. Mills discuss this memo with you?
Answer. I don't—I don't recall. I don't—I don't think so.
Question. And I believe you've kind of testified, in essence, to what is in here, so I won't go through this again, but just for the record, I'll make this Deposition Exhibit Number 32. And that's EOP 4956.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–32 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Is there anything that you would want to comment on on this document? I'll certainly give you the opportunity if there are any additional comments you have.
Answer. No.
Mr. MURPHY. I've got two left. Do you have two left?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Those were repeats. I don't know if——
The WITNESS. That's not a repeat. That's another——
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Mr. MURPHY. Erskine Bowles' copy or Leon——
The WITNESS. No.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you know whose handwriting that is?
Answer. No. It's different than the one that Erskine says he doesn't need to be involved with this until he becomes Chief of Staff.
Question. But is that the same memo?
Answer. Right. Both of them said ''returned unread.''
Question. Is that Jack Quinn's handwriting on there?
Answer. I don't—I cannot tell you that's Jack Quinn's handwriting. I believe Jack Quinn has told me that he—he reflected that he was filing it unread.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. Why don't we go ahead and make that Deposition Exhibit Number 33, just so the record has things there. And I'll—the other letter to the editor that has Jane's note on it at the end, I'll make that Deposition Exhibit Number 34.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–33 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And this is a November 25th, 1996, letter to the L.A. Times, Allen Miller. And were you involved in discussions in responding to Mr. Miller's inquiries?
Answer. Specifically, I don't recall. I mean, I was—I was involved in discussions with responding to various inquiries from various news outfits. Whether or not Allen Miller was one of them or not, I don't recall. Yeah, I think I was involved with this one, because after this one, he asked many of the same questions to us, and we wrote a letter, I believe, also, to him saying that, basically, the letter, as written by the DNC, reflected our understanding as well.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–34 was marked for identification.]
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Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. If we could just break for a moment.
[Discussion off the record.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. I just want to let you know that we do still have—oh, I'm sorry.
Mr. BALLEN. I need to take a brief break at this moment for a moment anyway.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay.
[Recess.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay. And then I think we've discussed a lot of the matters that are in this November 25th letter to Allen Miller from Amy Weiss Tobe. But directing your attention to the second page, it says that—in the third paragraph down, it says the DNC has a long-standing policy with cooperating with all regulatory and judicial proceedings. Consistent with this policy, Mr. Huang testified fully at his deposition without invoking the Fifth Amendment privilege.
Do you recall if there was any discussion with Mr. Huang that you know of or that you learned of about whether or not he should invoke his Fifth Amendment privilege?
Answer. I don't know whether we had a discussion specifically, but I think we had a—because we thought he was or wouldn't. But I think we had a general discussion about, if he did, whether or not we would terminate him. I think the answer was we would.
Question. And that would have been a discussion in late October, then?
Answer. Well, it would be right around the same time that we were discussing whether or not he—whether we would terminate him if he did not accept service. Then I think, again, I don't know if it was a hypothetical question or—you know, I think it was a hypothetical question—hypothetical question: What happens if he—if he shows up but then refuses to answer based upon his Fifth Amendment rights. And I think we decided we would terminate him under that condition as well.
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Question. Do you know who ''we'' is who talked about that?
Answer. Again, I think ''we'' is Joe Sandler, Harold, me. I don't know. You know, in general discussion about this. I don't know whether Jane was involved or not.
Question. Do you know whether that was communicated to Mr. Huang's attorney?
Answer. No. I don't know if it ever came up. I mean, because I think it was more of a hypothetical—the accepting service was clearly real, because, you know, the Judge had instructed him to.
My sense is that the discussion about whether or not to invoke—what we would do if he invoked the Fifth Amendment was more hypothetical in that we were just, in our own mind, trying to decide what our position would be. And I think we decided that we would terminate him.
Question. Did anyone raise any reason to take the Fifth?
Answer. No. I mean, I don't think it was a specific conversation. I think it was just, well, if he shows up, and he takes the Fifth, what are we going to do. And, again, I don't know if it was ever repeated to him or if it was ever a necessity to repeat to him.
Question. Was it ever communicated to him that the President would like him to come forth and speak on this?
Answer. I don't—I don't know. I never spoke to John, so I don't know what was communicated to him.
Question. Was there ever an effort made to let John Huang know this is hurting the President, the President would like you to come forward and speak about this?
Answer. Again, I don't know the answer to that. We had conversations in which we said that, you know, he either was going to come forward or he was going to be terminated. And we got word back that if that was the case, he would come forward.
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[Witness confers with counsel.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. Was there any matters you wanted to clarify at this point?
Mr. MURPHY. No, I was just confused about something.
The WITNESS. I was just clarifying with my lawyer.
Mr. MURPHY. He's keeping me straight.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. The next paragraph indicates that Chairman Fowler made the decision to let Mr. Huang go, along with a number of other fund-raising staff. And Ms. Thornberry informed Mr. Ickes. And Mr. Ickes also briefed Mr. Lindsey on this matter. Do you recall what Mr. Ickes told you about Mr. Huang's status?
Answer. Uh-huh. He told me that they were going to let John go. And I—I don't know if he told me or I asked, you know, is this unique to him or in that he's been in there the course of it. He said, no, that they were letting him go because the campaign was over, and they were letting go a good number of their fund-raising people.
I said at that point, as long as it was part of a general downsizing, if they were—you know, at that point, I didn't know of any reason why John Huang should be singled out. But if they were going to let go of all of them, I didn't see any reason why John Huang shouldn't be included.
Question. At this time, I guess this is—by November of '96, there also was in—the FEC had begun to look into things. Was it your understanding that John Huang was cooperating with DNC's own sort of internal review and assisting the FEC in any review they were going to do?
Answer. I don't know the answer to that.
Question. Did you have any understanding of whether or not John Huang was provided access to his records at the DNC?
Page 1018 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Answer. I don't think I knew one way or the other. I don't know whether they asked or whether he had or hadn't.
Question. Do you know if John Huang's records were sealed off in any way at the DNC?
Answer. No.
Question. When he was let go, do you know of any effort—did anyone suggest that his records should be sealed off and secured?
Answer. I—I wasn't aware of any conversation like that. I don't know whether anybody else suggested it or not.
Question. Okay. You were aware when Dick Morris left the campaign abruptly in August of '96 of his office being sealed and not being able to get back to his——
Mr. BALLEN. I'm going to object.
Ms. COMSTOCK.—document.
Mr. BALLEN. I object to the relevancy of this question. I don't see what it has to do with the campaign finance investigation.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'm just trying to get at the practices.
The WITNESS. One is the DNC and one is the campaign. I think Lynn Utrecht made a decision to do that. U-T-R-E-C-H.
Mr. MURPHY. T.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. With Mr. Morris?
Answer. I think she made the decision to do that with Dick Morris.
Question. Do you know why that was done?
Answer. No.
Page 1019 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Question. How did you learn of that decision?
Answer. I think someone told me she had changed the locks or something.
Question. Okay. And was there concern about preserving records in that——
Mr. BALLEN. I'm going to object to this line of questioning, because we had an agreement as to what we were going to finish questioning on, so minority would have a chance to ask its 10 minutes' worth of questions in a 6-hour deposition. Now that we're opening up another topic, that puts that agreement into jeopardy.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay. I'm just trying to get a point of comparison here on how Mr. Huang's records were treated. If you know, if you know of any effort made to secure Mr. Huang's records.
Answer. Again, I knew—I don't know whether there was or was not an effort to secure his records.
Question. Okay.
Answer. I don't know. I don't have any knowledge one way or the other.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of the DNC's record search in general and how they're going about searching for records?
Answer. No.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. I'll make this Deposition Exhibit Number 35. It's a November 25th, 1996 letter.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. BL–35 was marked for identification.]
[Witness confers with counsel.]
The WITNESS. I'm sorry, was this an exhibit? Okay.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Page 1020 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Question. This is a December 16th, 1996, Los Angeles Times memo to Mike McCurry from Glenn Bunting, re: Bruce Lindsey, asking you some questions following up on Mr. Huang and his hiring and matters like that.
I won't go into detail with the questions, but you provided a December 18th response. You prepared this December 18th, 1996 response EOP 37012 through 13; is that correct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And could you just generally tell us about—walk us through——
Mr. MURPHY. Why?
Ms. COMSTOCK.—how——
The WITNESS. I was responding to the letter, the December 16th request for information. I was giving responses to it.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay. And at this time, when you were responding to this, did you use any records or refer to any documents that have been gathered at that time?
Answer. Apparently, I must have looked at the records with respect to the Kristoferson material, because it says I do not recall the briefing, but a note from Mr. Christopherson indicates that it occurred. So I must have looked at something. I probably, you know, looked at—I had testimony before the Senate Whitewater Committee to see what the reference was down in the one, two, three, four, fifth paragraph. Beyond that, I don't remember, you know, looking at any documents.
Question. Okay. But do you recall documents about Mr. Huang's appointment being pulled at that point, then, in December of 1996? Gary Christopher, you reference a note from Gary—from Mr. Christopherson.
Page 1021 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Answer. Probably pulled and provided to various people who had requested it, including probably members of this committee. We had gotten letters starting in November about these issues, and we were pulling documents and responding to those letter requests.
Question. Okay. And were you reviewing those requests as they went through and the material in them?
Answer. Some. Some not. I mean, you know, you know, again, I don't—I can't tell you that I reviewed all of them. I helped, you know, look at some of the documents in response to some of the requests.
Mr. KANJORSKI. Ms. Comstock, is there a chance now—it's about eight minutes left.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yeah. I'll make the December 16th, 1996 memo Deposition Number 36. And we'll make Mr. Lindsey's response of December 18th Deposition Exhibit Number 37.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit Nos. BL–36 and BL–37 were marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. COMSTOCK:
Question. And just to complete the record, there are two more responses.
Answer. Right. Just proving that, any time you respond to the press, they'll come back with more questions.
Question. And this a December 19th request from the Los Angeles Times to you and then your December 20th response back. And do you recall either of these, either the previous one, the 18th or the 20th, if you had any discussions with the President about any of these——
Answer. No.
Page 1022 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Question. Matters or with Mr. Ickes or anyone else at the White House?
Answer. No. I would note that, shortly after I wrote this, Sara Fritz was pulled off the Whitewater Water coverage.
Question. I'm sure she appreciates that.
Answer. I'm not sure if she does or doesn't, you know.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. I'll make December 19th memo from the Los Angeles Times Deposition Exhibit Number 38 and the December 20th memo——
Mr. BALLEN. We don't have those copies. The Minority doesn't have a copy of the last two——
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay.
Mr. BALLEN.—that you were discussing.
Ms. COMSTOCK. We'll make that last one Deposition Number 39, the December 20th response from Mr. Lindsey.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit Nos. BL–38 and BL–39 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And, finally, somewhat related to, but I just wanted to finish—we had mostly gone through the Hubbell things. When Mr. Hubbell testified in February of '96 about Lippo payments, did you have any discussions with anybody at the White House at that time in February of '96 about Mr. Hubbell's public testimony at that time when he was asked about if he had done any work for Lippo?
Answer. Again, not any other than just asking somebody if they had seen the article or something like that. No, I didn't have any substantive discussions about it.
Question. Okay. Thank you. I will break now for the Minority.
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EXAMINATION BY MR. BALLEN:
Question. Mr. Lindsey, we want you to know that Mr. Kanjorski and the Minority Members of this committee extend their thanks to you to take your time here with your busy session. You've been here nearly 6-1/2 hours with only minor breaks. Your effort to provide full and complete answers is noteworthy.
Answer. I appreciate it.
Question. I just have a few questions, sir.
First of all, on the Webster Hubbell matter which you were questioned about extensively, did the President or the First Lady at any time ever ask you, sir, to find employment opportunities for Webster Hubbell after he resigned from the Justice Department?
Answer. No, sir.
Question. And, in fact, sir, you never tried to find employment opportunities for Webster Hubbell after he resigned from the Justice Department?
Answer. No, sir, I did not.
Question. And you had no idea what services Webster Hubbell provided the Riady family, if any, in 1994, did you, sir?
Answer. I do not know.
Question. Did you ever tell the President or the First Lady that Webster Hubbell was working for the Riady family?
Answer. No.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Or for the Lippo Group?
The WITNESS. No.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BALLEN:
Question. Did you or the President ever have what you would consider a substantive discussion about Jane—with James, I'm sorry, with James or Mochtar Riady about changing our trade policy in any fashion?
Page 1024 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Answer. No.
Question. Have you, to your knowledge, or the President ever been lobbied by the Riadys to specifically change any U.S. trade policy or any other policy of the United States Government?
Answer. No, sir.
Question. In fact, sir, have you ever urged changes in U.S. trade policy or any other policy of the United States Government in response to hearing the views of either James or Mochtar Riady?
Answer. No, sir.
Question. Are you aware of any efforts by James and Mochtar Riady to lobby for changes in U.S. trade policy or any other policy in the United States Government?
Answer. I know that Mochtar Riady wrote a letter in early '93 in which he urged a one-level approach toward Vietnam, but I learned of that in October of 1996 after—clearly after our policy already had been changed with respect to Vietnam.
Question. There are a series of questions that Mr. Condit, a member of our committee wanted to have asked. Have you ever been asked by any other official investigative body to testify and provide evidence on any of the matters being investigated by this committee now?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Which other bodies would that be?
Answer. Justice Department, a couple Federal grand juries, the Senate. To the extent we talked about the Whitewater, the RTC, Inspector General, yeah, Senate and the House both, the current committee and the Banking Committee, and later the Whitewater Committee.
The last time I did a check, I had given or testified, I think, publicly or in deposition, not including maybe grand jury and RTC and Justice Department, FBI investigation, 17 times between the Senate and House on Whitewater and other related matters.
Page 1025 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Question. Is this number 18? Does that include the Senate?
Answer. Yeah, that includes—that includes all of my testimony before the Senate, almost every time I testified in the Senate was preceded by a deposition. So it would be both the deposition, and then the hearing would be twice. And if you go back to 1993, I—I think, at that time, it was 14. And since then, I've testified before the Senate and the House and one more investigation downtown.
Question. Okay. Have any of these requests for information overlapped with one another?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Have you received any request to provide more documents or testimony in the future that are pending that you know of?
Answer. The harder question is that I know of. I think we got a—a revised version of document requests that overlapped significantly with the document requests we had received earlier. And I think we're in the process now of trying to figure out where the overlap is to find out which documents we've already provided and which ones we haven't.
Question. This may be a difficult question given the amount of time here, but can you estimate how much of your time you have spent in responding to requests from this committee, I'll put the Senate, since it overlapped so substantially, for testimony, information, and documents?
Answer. It's almost impossible. I mean, there are times when, you know, for a week or so, I would do nothing but respond to either requests for production of documents or testimony, either by deposition or in hearings.
You know, I mean, again, my involvement goes back, unfortunately, to, you know, March of '94. And so it involved a criminal investigation as well. So it's hard for me to sort of single out.
Page 1026 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Question. Let's take it from January of this year, then, when this current Senate and the House investigation had started. Can you give any sense of how much time you've spent?
Answer. Document productions have taken up at least half of my time probably.
Question. Half of your time since——
Answer. Yeah. That, again, is not only my own personal document productions, but also having, until we got this new group in, Lanny Breuer and others, having some involvement in reviewing other documents from other people.
Question. So this has been a substantial burden on your time?
Answer. Oh, absolutely.
Question. Have you incurred expenses in responding to all of these requests?
Answer. Yes. Most of them are sitting right here next to me.
Mr. MURPHY. Modest, I can assure you.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BALLEN:
Question. Well, that was actually my next question. Can you estimate the extent of expenses?
Answer. Well, again, actually, you know, as the Majority knows, I quit bringing lawyers to these at one point and started coming on my own in order to try to avoid the cost of having lawyers. That turned out to be a little bit of a mess in and of itself.
Again, it's hard for me to separate this from—from my others. Bill would have a better sense. One, he's doing it at a discounted rate, and, two, I hope in the end that there will be a representational fund that will cover all or some of it on the grounds that everything I did, I believe I did in some sort of official capacity and not personally.
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Question. In that regard, has this committee offered to reimburse you for your time and expenses?
Answer. No. In fact, this committee, frankly, has made it more difficult, because, otherwise, I would be represented by the White House Counsel's Office. Because I believe, again, that I have a right, since everything I did was, you know, in official capacity, to be represented by the Counsel to the White House. And this committee has taken the position that the White House Counsel's Office cannot represent White House staff people, therefore, requiring us either to come without a lawyer, which is not necessarily acceptable, or hire outside attorneys.
Question. Will you plan to seek reimbursement from the committee for these expenses?
Answer. I didn't know that was an option.
Mr. BALLEN. Thank you very much.
Mr. MURPHY. If it is an option, please send us a memo. We'll pursue it.
Mr. BALLEN. Mr. Kanjorski, do you have anything?
Mr. KANJORSKI. No.
[Discussion off the record.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. We can let the record reflect, and we do have some open matters that we've discussed off the record that we'll have to continue the deposition, but we will consider it done for today and have to pick up at another time depending on what occurs elsewhere. Thank you.
[Whereupon, at 4:35 p.m., the deposition was concluded.]
[The exhibits referred to follow:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 571 TO 620, 650 TO 654, 626 TO 635, 621 TO 625, 636 TO 649, AND 655 TO 667 HERE
Page 1028 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
[The official committee record contains additional material here.]
[The deposition of C. Douglas Buford, Jr., follows:]
Executive Session
| Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, |
| U.S. House of Representatives, |
| Washington, DC. |
DEPOSITION OF: C. DOUGLAS BUFORD, JR.
| Thursday, October 23, 1997 |
The deposition in the above matter was held in Room 2203, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 10:05 a.m.
Appearances:
Staff Present for the Government Reform and Oversight Committee: Kristi Remington, Investigative Counsel; Michelle White, Investigative Counsel; and Michael J. Raphael, Minority Counsel.
For MR. BUFORD:
JACK T. LASSITER, ESQ.
Hatfield & Lassiter
401 West Capitol, Suite 502
Little Rock, Arkansas 72201
Ms. REMINGTON. Good morning, Mr. Buford. On behalf of the members of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, we appreciate you appearing here today.
This proceeding is known as a deposition. The person transcribing this proceeding is a House reporter and notary public. I would now request that the reporter place you under oath.
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THEREUPON, C. DOUGLAS BUFORD, JR., a witness, was called for examination by Counsel, and after having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows.
Ms. REMINGTON. I would like to note for the record those who are present at the beginning of this deposition. My name is Kristi Remington, and I am the designated Majority counsel for the committee during this deposition. I am accompanied today by Michelle White, who is also with Majority staff; and Michael Raphael is the designated Minority counsel for the committee. Today, the deponent is represented by Mr. Jack Lassiter.
You have been placed under oath today, and your testimony has the same force and effect as if you were testifying before the committee or in any courtroom.
If I ask you about any conversations you have had in the past and you are unable to recall the exact words used in the conversation, please state that you are unable to recall the exact words and then give me any gist or substance of the conversation which you remember.
If I ask you whether you have any information upon a particular subject and you have overheard other persons conversing with each other regarding it or have seen correspondence or documentation regarding it, please tell me that you do have such information, and indicate the source, either a conversation or documentation or otherwise, from which you have derived such knowledge.
Before we begin the questioning, I want to give you some background about the investigation and your appearance here.
Pursuant to its authority under House Rules X and XI, the committee is engaged in a wide-ranging review of possible political fund-raising improprieties and possible violations of law.
Pages 2 through 4 of House Report 105–139 summarize the investigation as of June 19, 1997. It encompasses any new matters which arise directly or indirectly in the course of the investigation. Pages 4 through 11 of the report explain the background of the investigation.
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All questions related either directly or indirectly to these issues or questions which have a tendency to make the existence of any pertinent fact more or less probable than it would be without the evidence are proper.
The committee has been granted specific authorization to conduct this deposition pursuant to House Resolution 167, which passed the full House on June 20, 1997.
The committee rule 20, of which your attorney should have received a copy, outlines the ground rules for the deposition. Majority and Minority committee counsels will ask you questions regarding the subject matter of the investigation. Minority counsel will ask questions after Majority counsel has finished. After Minority counsel has completed questioning you, a new round of questioning may begin.
Members of Congress who wish to ask questions will be afforded an immediate opportunity to ask their questions. When they are finished, committee counsel will resume questioning.
Pursuant to the committees rules, you are allowed to have an attorney present to advise you of your rights. Any objection raised during the course of the deposition shall be stated for the record.
If the witness is instructed not to answer a question or otherwise refuses to answer a question, Majority and Minority counsel will confer to determine whether the objection is proper. If Majority and Minority counsels agree that a question is proper, the witness will be asked to answer the question. If an objection is not withdrawn, the chairman or a member designated by the chairman may decide whether the objection is proper.
This deposition is considered as taken in executive session of the committee, which means that it would not be made public without the consent of the committee, pursuant to clause 2(k)(7) of House Rule XI. You are asked to abide by the rules of the House and not discuss with anyone other than your attorney this deposition and the issues and questions raised during the proceeding.
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Mr. LASSITER. Is that a requirement?
Ms. REMINGTON. We just ask you to abide by the rules.
Mr. LASSITER. Okay.
Ms. REMINGTON. Finally, no later than 5 days after your testimony is transcribed and you have been notified that your transcript is available, you may submit suggested changes to the chairman. The transcript will be available for your review at the committee office, but because you live out of town, with the consent of Minority, we have been sending the transcripts out. If you would just sign a form stating that you would agree to keep it confidential.
The committee staff may make any typographical and technical changes requested by you. Substantive changes, modifications, clarifications, or amendments to the deposition transcript submitted by you must be accompanied by a letter requesting the changes and a statement of your reasons for such changes. Any substantive changes or modifications to the transcript will be included as an appendix, conditioned upon your signing the transcript.
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON
Question. Do you understand everything we have gone over so far?
Answer. I think so.
Question. Are you here voluntarily today or as a result of a subpoena?
Answer. Voluntarily.
Ms. REMINGTON. Did you want to make any statement before I go into the questioning?
Mr. RAPHAEL. No, I have no statement.
Ms. REMINGTON. I had discussed with Mr. Lassiter earlier that there may be some attorney-client privilege objections waived, and I think we are going to take that on a case-by-case basis, and I would ask that the reporter just note in the transcript any time an objection is raised.
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Mr. RAPHAEL. Let me ask, since I was not party to the discussion, the discussion was just that there may be attorney-client objections made?
Mr. LASSITER. I anticipate there will be. I think in the areas that you described to me that you want to inquire into, I anticipate that is probably going to happen.
Mr. RAPHAEL. I understand.
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. Can you please state your full name and spell it for the record?
Answer. C, period, Douglas, D-O-U-G-L-A-S, Buford, B-U-F-O-R-D, Junior.
Question. And what is your current work address?
Answer. [Redacted].
Question. How long have you been at that address?
Answer. 24 years.
Question. Do you have a work telephone number?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And what is that number?
Answer. [Redacted].
Question. Is that a general firm number, or is that your direct?
Answer. Direct.
Question. What is the general firm number?
Answer. [Redacted].
Question. And we have been asking witnesses if they could provide off the record their home telephone number and home addresses. Some people don't like to put it on the record because the transcript may be made public.
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Answer. Sure, I don't care.
Question. Have you discussed this deposition with anyone other than your attorney?
Answer. No. My wife; I mean, she knows where I am.
Question. Have you been provided any instructions relating to this deposition, besides by your attorney?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you review any documents in preparation for this deposition?
Answer. Oh, not really.
Question. Other than your own?
Answer. No, no.
Question. Would you please briefly describe your employment history, from college forward?
Answer. Okay. I graduated from the University of Arkansas Law School in '73; I went to work for Wright, Lindsey & Jennings; and I have been there for 24 or 25 years.
Question. Do you know James Riady?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. How do you know James Riady?
Answer. I first met him in the mid-eighties, when he was a resident in Little Rock.
Question. And do you recall the circumstances under which you met him?
Answer. He was an officer in the Worthen Bank, and that is the building that our law offices are located in, and my law firm has represented that bank for years.
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Question. Could you briefly describe what your relationship is with Mr. Riady?
Answer. Well, he is——
Mr. LASSITER. Counsel, do you mean presently?
Ms. REMINGTON. At this time.
The WITNESS. Okay. He is an officer of a client of our law firm, and, you know, I had a relationship with him for all these years.
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. Do you have a personal relationship as well as a business relationship?
Answer. You know, I think all my clients are my friends.
Question. Do you speak with Mr. Riady outside of business discussions?
Answer. Not recently.
Question. Were you ever personally employed by Mr. Riady, not through your law firm?
Answer. No.
Question. Does your law firm represent the Lippo Group?
Answer. Yes.
Question. For how long has your law firm represented the Lippo Group?
Answer. I believe it would be 4 or 5 years, something like that.
Question. Since 1992 or 1993?
Answer. Somewhere around in there. Now there could be representation earlier than that. I mean, I didn't check the record, but it would have been—from sometime in '84, through '97, there would have been periods of time through there.
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Question. And when did you actually become involved in representing the Lippo Group?
Answer. I am not sure whether or not there was some representation, '84, '85, '86; we were representing the bank at the time. But '93, probably about in there sometime.
Mr. RAPHAEL. When you say the bank, you mean Worthen Bank?
The WITNESS. I'm sorry, Worthen Bank.
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. Do you know an individual named John Huang?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And when did you meet John Huang?
Answer. Probably in around '84, '85, when he was a resident in Little Rock.
Question. What were the circumstances under which you met Mr. Huang?
Answer. He was an employee of the bank—Worthen Bank, sorry. Now, he was involved in the bank—I am not real sure, because there were a number of subsidiaries in the bank at that time, and I don't mean literally. There was a holding company and a bank and a number of subsidiaries. I am not sure which entity he actually got a paycheck from, but he was in the bank building associated with the bank, and that is where I first ran into him.
Question. And have you been in contact with Mr. Huang since 1992?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And what type of relationship have you had with Mr. Huang since 1992?
Answer. He was an employee of Lippo Group, and I communicated with him in relationship to our representation. And, you know, some, I guess, social occasions. I mean, I would have had lunch with him, or if he were in Little Rock or I were in Washington and he were in Washington.
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Question. Between the period of 1992 and 1995, did Mr. Huang travel to Little Rock often?
Answer. I don't know. I mean, he could have come and not necessarily had business with me. I mean, he had other business in Little Rock, so I saw him some, but I have no idea—I mean, he could well have come without me knowing, but I wouldn't consider it frequent. The only times he came were the times I saw him; I wouldn't characterize it as frequent.
Question. Would you characterize how often you saw him during that period, 1992 through late 1994?
Answer. I mean, it would be a guess. I couldn't even say it was once a month. I mean, it would be hard to recall. Not regularly, by any means.
Question. Would you typically see Mr. Huang on Lippo Group business?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Let me go back to 1992. Were you aware of any political contributions made by James Riady during the 1992 Presidential campaign?
Answer. Not that I know of.
Question. Did you ever discuss political contributions with Mr. Riady in that 1992 time period?
Answer. His contributions?
Question. Any general discussions about political contributions?
Answer. No, I don't think so.
Question. And in 1992, was your relationship with Mr. Riady any different? Was it basically a business relationship?
Answer. Well, I think my recollection is that the firm was employed in '93. So in '92, I don't recall much relationship at all, other than bumping into him, you know, at, you know, if he was on a—you know, I worked in the campaign, everybody worked on the campaign, so other than just bumping into him, we had no—I knew him, but I am pretty sure we had no firm relationship at that point.
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Mr. LASSITER. I would like to make sure the witness understood the question you asked about two questions back. You asked him if he discussed any political contributions with Mr. Riady, and I took that to mean any source.
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. No; I'm sorry, any political—actually, my question was, did you discuss political contributions in general?
Answer. No.
Question. Contributing one way or another.
Answer. No, not that I recall.
Mr. LASSITER. Thank you. I just wanted to make sure he understood that.
The WITNESS. Thank you.
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. And you mentioned that you worked for the campaign in 1992?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Would that be Clinton/Gore campaign?
Answer. Yes.
Question. What did you do?
Answer. I was just a volunteer. I served on an Arkansas finance council.
Question. Did you know Mr. Mark Middleton?
Answer. Yes, I did.
Question. And what was his position at that time on the campaign?
Answer. You know, he had something to do, I think, with fund-raising. He organized our council meetings, our finance council meetings, and I am not sure what other financial responsibility he had.
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Question. What exactly did the finance council do?
Answer. Raised money in Arkansas, had a fund-raiser one time.
Question. During the 1992 campaign, I realize you were just a volunteer. Could you characterize how often you would see Mr. Middleton?
Answer. I think the major fund-raiser was in December of '91, and we met, I believe, on a Tuesday morning weekly for probably 4 or 5 weeks, prior to that, is really about the only recollection I have, and it was probably 20 people, and we would meet and just, you know, go over calls and cards and organization and that kind of thing. He was just in attendance at the meeting.
Question. Was Mr. Riady involved with the 1992 campaign?
Answer. No. You mean with the fund-raiser I was involved in?
Question. You mentioned you saw him around Arkansas?
Answer. I have no idea.
Question. Was Mr. Huang involved in the 1992 campaign?
Answer. My understanding is, they supported the President and were active in the campaign in some capacity. I don't have any idea what it was.
Question. Okay. And just to clarify, I had asked about Mr. Huang, and you said ''they.'' Who were you referring to?
Answer. You just asked me, I thought, about Huang and Riady.
Question. Right.
Answer. Okay. Huang, I think—I mean, I know, just from reading the paper, and general information, that he raised money in the Asian community or something in '92, but I was not involved in that, had no communication with him about that, and wasn't involved in any way.
Mr. RAPHAEL. Just to be clear, I think Ms. Remington is asking you for your firsthand knowledge in 1992, I believe.
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Ms. REMINGTON. Let me explain.
Mr. RAPHAEL. If your knowledge comes from reading the papers after that, you might want to say your knowledge comes from that source.
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. I don't want any information you have read in the newspaper, obviously, but if you do have information from talking to other people which wouldn't be characterized as firsthand information, I would like that as well, and you can let me know where you have the information from.
Mr. LASSITER. Make sure you try to distinguish the difference of your source.
The WITNESS. I have no direct knowledge of them being involved in a campaign in '92. The secondhand knowledge that I have is from seeing them at some campaign event, and I can't even recall when or where.
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. And, again, that is Mr. Huang and Mr. Riady?
Answer. Mr. Huang.
Question. You had earlier mentioned Mr. Huang being involved in Asian American fund-raising. Is your only knowledge of that from newspaper sources?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Do you know President Clinton?
Answer. Yes.
Question. When did you meet President Clinton?
Answer. I think the first time I met him was in '73, when we took the bar together.
Question. Did you have any contact with President Clinton while he was the Governor of Arkansas?
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Answer. Yes.
Question. And what types of contact did you have with then Governor Clinton?
Answer. I knew him socially. We jogged together long before it was in the vogue. Let's see, I—you know, I would assist him on occasion with matters, you know, on a voluntary basis; you know, different matters that were pending in Arkansas, you know.
Question. Legal matters?
Answer. No, not really. I mean, you know, sometimes legal matters, sometimes not; but they were—you know, Grand Gulf was a huge problem. It was a nuclear plant that was being built, and that was an issue that I worked on. My background is business, corporate securities, and so I would—you know, if matters involved the business community, we would often talk about those. And he was my law partner for 2 years.
Question. How often, if at all, have you been in contact with President Clinton since the election?
Answer. Which election?
Question. The 1992 election.
Answer. Okay. I am learning.
After '92, I was, you know, all of the—I think all of my contact with him has been casual, social, you know, bumping into him. I have run with him several times out of the White House. If I am up here on business, I may call. I used to call and, you know, go by the White House, you know, 5:30 or 6:00, you know, in the afternoon or something and visit. There used to be a lot of Arkansans there. There still are some.
But I don't think I have ever called on him in an official capacity. I may have been on the schedule in the morning for running or something like that, but I don't remember, you know, calling for an appointment and coming in, you know, on a regular scheduled visit.
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Question. Did you do any work on the 1996 Clinton/Gore campaign?
Answer. Same thing.
Question. Limited to Arkansas?
Answer. Yes. Same counsel, same people.
Question. Let me go back to Mr. Huang. How often were you in contact with Mr. Huang from the period after the Presidential election until he began working at the Commerce Department, that happened in July, 1994?
Answer. During that period of time, he was an employee of the Lippo Group, and if I—I guess my contacts with him during that period of time would have involved, you know, confidential conversations relating to my work and his employment.
Question. I just want to know, would you talk to him or speak to him on a regular basis during that period?
Answer. I mean, if it is all—the majority of it was work, so do you want to know about the work-related phone calls or the non-work-related phone calls?
Question. I just generally want to know how often you would speak to him within that time period, both, including both.
Answer. I don't know.
Question. Could you characterize it as once a month or more than once a month?
Answer. The time frame is what?
Question. Right after the Presidential election.
Answer. '92?
Question. Through July 1994, when he began to work at the Commerce Department.
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Answer. Generally, my work is transaction related, so there are times when, in representing clients, if there were activity going on, that I may talk a lot, and other times there were—you know, there would be lulls where I wouldn't talk at all. And I would generally characterize that as true with all my clients.
Question. Were you in contact with Mr. Huang socially during that same time period I described, from after the election until he went to work at the Commerce Department, in July 1994?
Answer. I would imagine, if we were in the same place—I mean, if he were in Little Rock or I were in Washington and we knew we were here, I may invite him to lunch or he may have dinner with me. It was rare. I mean, I would say it was, you know, probably less than 10 times, but it probably occurred.
Question. After the 1992 Presidential election, and before Mr. Huang's s appointment to the Commerce Department in July of 1994, were you aware that Mr. Huang was seeking a Presidential appointment?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And how did you become aware that he was seeking a Presidential appointment?
Answer. I think he told me.
Question. Do you recall what he told you?
Answer. I just recall that he asked me if I thought it was, you know, something he ought to do, and did I think he would be good and could serve the President and the administration, and I told him I thought he could.
Question. Did he tell you where he wanted to work?
Answer. No. I mean, I eventually learned he was at the Commerce—you know, was going to work at Commerce, but I don't recall where I learned that from.
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Question. When did you become aware that Mr. Huang was seeking a Presidential appointment?
Answer. I wouldn't have any idea. Before he got the job in Commerce.
Question. Was Mr. Huang looking into Presidential appointments at other agencies, such as the State Department?
Answer. I am not even sure of the job he got at Commerce is a Presidential appointment.
Question. It is. It is unconfirmed; it is not a Senate confirmed appointment.
Answer. But, I mean, I can characterize that he was looking for a job up here, in the administration, or working either in some sort of area related to his background or in a political area—those two options.
Question. Did he tell you why he wanted to switch jobs from the Lippo Group to a government-related job?
Answer. I don't recall. I mean, I thought he wanted—he believed in the President, worked hard for him, was excited about the opportunity to involve Asian Americans, and he thought that his relationship with the President and his contacts in the Asian community could serve both well.
Question. What was your understanding at that time of Mr. Huang's relationship with the President?
Answer. He just knew him, you know, worked in the campaign, in '92.
Question. Do you know when Mr. Huang met the President?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you discuss with anyone in that period, between the 1992 Presidential election in July, 1994, when Mr. Huang took his position at the Department of Commerce—did you discuss the fact that Mr. Huang was seeking a Presidential appointment with anyone?
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Answer. I think at some point Bruce Lindsey and I had a conversation about it.
Question. And what was discussed?
Answer. The fact that he was looking for—or that he was interested in working in the administration in some capacity.
Question. Do you recall if Mr. Lindsey contacted you specifically about that or if you contacted Mr. Lindsey specifically about Mr. Huang?
Answer. I don't think so.
Question. It just came up within a conversation?
Answer. A conversation.
Question. Do you recall if you mentioned it to Mr. Lindsey or whether Mr. Lindsey asked you about it during that other conversation?
Answer. No.
Question. And you mentioned Bruce Lindsey. How do you know Bruce Lindsey?
Answer. He was a member of my law firm for, intermittently, 20 years, and he is a friend of mine.
Question. So you both have a personal and former professional relationship?
Answer. Yes. He has been in and out of the law firm since the mid-seventies.
Question. And how often are you in contact with Mr. Lindsey?
Answer. It depends on whether he returns my phone calls. Now I mean, it is the same as my work; I mean, there are times when we may talk once a week, a couple of times a week; there are other times when, you know, we may go a month without talking. But he has always had excellent assistants, and, more times than not, my communication would be to his assistant—you know, ''I am coming to Washington; if you want to eat dinner, let me know.'' I may never hear or I may hear.
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Question. Did you ever discuss with—I'm sorry; during the same time period, '92 to '94, did you ever discuss with James Riady the fact that John Huang was seeking a Presidential appointment?
Mr. LASSITER. Is that a privileged conversation?
The WITNESS. I didn't. I didn't. Not that I recall.
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. And did you ever contact anyone in the administration on Mr. Huang's behalf?
And let me clarify that. Just for the record, after the election and between July 1994, that same time frame, did you ever contact anyone in the administration on Mr. Huang's behalf?
Answer. Not that I recall.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of James Riady seeking a Presidential appointment in that same time frame?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you ever met any other members of the Riady family?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Which members have you met?
Answer. I have met his father.
Question. Is that Mochtri Riady?
Answer. Mochtar. I have met his wife.
Question. Eileen?
Answer. Eileen. His three children.
Question. Caroline?
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Answer. Henry and—I am drawing a blank; there is a third. I met others as well. But not that I recall.
Question. Did you meet the other members of the Riady family while they were traveling in the United States?
Answer. Some of those I met in Little Rock, way back to '84 and '85.
Question. And where have you met others?
Answer. I don't recall. I mean, all of them have been to Little Rock.
Question. Have you traveled to Jakarta?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Was that on Lippo business or?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Document Bates numbered HHH 4569 is Exhibit 1, and Exhibit 1 is a July 22, 1993, letter from James Riady to John Huang. And I will let you look over that.
Answer. Yes.
[Buford Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.]
[Note.—All exhibits referred to may be found at end of the deposition.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. I would direct your attention to paragraph 3, and your name is mentioned where it says, ''I have received Doug Buford''.
Do you know what this paragraph refers to? Were you traveling over to Jakarta in that time frame?
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Answer. Sometime. I don't remember this date, but, yes, I was in Jakarta in that time frame.
Question. Was Mr. Huang there as well?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And was this a business trip?
Answer. Yes, it was in connection with our representation.
Question. And in paragraph 2 of the Exhibit 1, it says, ''Please call me when you have time to talk about Grobmyer. Or, let me know where you can be contacted.''
Do you know Mark Grobmyer?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And how do you know Mr. Grobmyer?
Answer. He is an attorney in Little Rock.
Question. Are you aware of him having any business with the Lippo Group?
Answer. No. I mean, I have seen him with them before, but I don't have any personal knowledge of what his relationship is with them.
Question. Have you ever discussed Mr. Grobmyer with James Riady?
Answer. I don't think I have. I mean, there may have been some causal comment about, Mark was here or Mark was there or something, but nothing of substance.
Question. Were you aware of any business Mr. Grobmyer was conducting with the Lippo Group or Mr. Riady?
Answer. No.
Question. As I mentioned before, Mr. Huang started working at the Commerce Department in July of 1994. Were you in contact with Mr. Huang while he was employed by the Commerce Department from July of 1994 through December of 1995?
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Answer. Probably.
Question. What type of contacts would you have with Mr. Huang? I am looking for business contacts or personal contacts.
Answer. It would not have been business. Social—you know, coming to Washington; How are you doing? How do you like your job? Do you want to go to dinner? Do you want to go to lunch? He may have called me about similar things.
Question. How often do you travel to Washington, generally?
Answer. My practice varies. You know, there are times when I can be here, you know, two or three times a month, and there are times when I go a month or so without coming.
Question. I had asked you earlier to generally describe your relationship with Mr. Huang. Was there any change in your relationship while Mr. Huang—what your description of your relationship with Mr. Huang was—let me start over.
Could you generally describe your relationship with Mr. Huang while he was working at the Commerce Department?
Answer. Friend.
Question. Did you attend the 1993 APEC conference in Seattle? And APEC is Asian Pacific Economic Conference.
Answer. Yes. Yes, I did.
11Question. Were you part of any Arkansas delegation which attended the APEC conference?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And could you generally describe what the Arkansas delegation was?
Answer. It was a group of businessmen, and I think it was led by the Governor. And beyond that, I don't know how to characterize it.
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Question. What was the purpose of the delegation?
Answer. To try to explore trade opportunities and business opportunities for Arkansas.
Question. Did you participate in organizing the delegation?
Answer. Oh, I had no responsibility. I mean, I may have been aware of different events and all, but not really. I mean, as far as making arrangement for rooms or meetings or anything like that, no, but I was generally aware of what we were doing, you know, where we were supposed to go, who was going, that stuff, but I was certainly not in charge.
Question. Who invited you to attend as part of the delegation?
Answer. I don't recall. I think it was the Governor.
Question. And during the APEC summit, was there a signing of a sister state relationship between Arkansas and Jakarta, or Indonesia?
Answer. It seemed like it was a city deal. I don't recall. I mean, I don't even remember it. If the mayor was with us or not, I don't recall. I mean, I have some vague recollection of that, but I don't remember what it was. I didn't participate in it.
Question. Was Mr. Riady involved in organizing the Arkansas delegation for the APEC conference?
Answer. Not through me.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of what his involvement was?
Answer. Well, there were a group of Indonesians that came to Little Rock, Asian—Indonesian businessmen that came to Little Rock, and then they, too, attended the conference with the Arkansas delegation. And that may have been that sister—that may have been what it was. I recall attending a reception at the Governor's mansion the day before we left, and the Indonesians were there.
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Question. You said that he did not organize that through you. Do you know who assisted him in organizing that?
Answer. My recollection is, the Governor's office made those arrangements with—so if he were involved, I would assume it was from the Governor's office.
Question. When you attended the APEC conference, would that have been in your capacity as a businessman in Arkansas or Little Rock?
Answer. At the time, I was in line for the presidency of the chamber, so it, you know—I mean, I had a lot of capacities. I am not sure how—why the Governor picked me or who invited me or what criteria. It could have been because of my chamber activity.
Question. What types of activities at the APEC conference was the Arkansas delegation involved in?
Answer. Well, I don't know. I didn't have any individual meetings with anybody or—but I am sure there were others that did. I mean, I just attended a reception that I think our delegation hosted, and the official functions. I mean, I didn't have any—personally have any meetings, but I am sure others did.
Question. Did the President attend that reception?
Answer. Yes, he did.
Question. Did you see Mr. Riady during the APEC conference?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Do you recall whether Mr. Riady met with the President during that conference?
Answer. There was—the President came to the reception, and there was a room about this size, and there was probably 70 or 80, 100 people in the room. They were in the room at the same time. Other than that, I don't know.
Question. Document A, Bates AIDC 005381 through 005383, will be Exhibit 2. Exhibit 2 is an October 28, 1993, letter from Joseph Giroir to James Riady, and I will give you an opportunity to review that. I know there—isn't your document but I had some questions.
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Answer. Okay.
[Buford Deposition Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. Do you know Joseph Giroir?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And how do you know Mr. Giroir?
Answer. He is an attorney in Little Rock.
Question. Could you briefly describe what your relationship with Mr. Giroir is?
Answer. He is several years older than I am, and he began his practice in Arkansas with the Rose Law Firm, and we have been on the opposite sides of tracks for 25 years.
Question. Do you have a personal as well as business relationship with Mr. Giroir?
Answer. No.
Question. Strictly business?
Answer. Well, I mean, if he is in town, I wouldn't turn my back if I saw him. I have never been in his home or him in my home or anything like that.
Question. Do you know whether Mr. Giroir had a relationship with James Riady, business or otherwise?
Answer. Time frame?
Question. After the election, the 1992 election, to the present?
Answer. Do I know whether he had a business relationship with Riady?
Question. Yes.
Answer. No. Now you are asking me to exclude what I have read in the paper and see in the magazines.
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Question. Yes.
Mr. LASSITER. But to include what he may have heard; correct?
Ms. REMINGTON. Correct.
The WITNESS. Include what I have heard?
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. Yes.
Answer. I have heard he had a business relationship with Riady.
Question. Just around town?
Answer. Yes, just around town. And I heard he represented himself as having a business relationship with Riady.
Question. Were you ever in contact with Mr. Giroir about the Riadys or Lippo Group from 1993, when you began representing them, to the present?
Answer. Yes.
Question. What types of issues would you be in contact with Mr. Giroir about?
Answer. Possibly logistics. You know, if somebody was coming to town or he may—you know, they are 15 hours ahead, and you can see here, that communication you can see is an indication in Giroir's letter that there are only like 2 hours that they are awake and we are awake, and he may convey a message that James was coming to town and needed to see me or wanted to meet with somebody in the firm, or was something like that. And then I probably had conversations about the logistics of this trip at some point. And then we can fast forward to '94, if you are ready to get into that.
Question. Before we go to '94, when you say ''this trip''?
Answer. This one it is referring to in this letter.
Question. It refers to several trips. Is it the Seattle trip?
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Answer. The Seattle trip. That is the only one I would have been concerned about.
Question. And you were about to move on to 1994?
Answer. You asked me how many conversations I had from '92. So other than logistics and stuff, I don't think I have had any substantive conversations with him, but I did have conversations with him in '94, in connection with the APEC trip to Jakarta.
Question. We will talk about that later.
Answer. Okay.
Question. I will go back to Exhibit 2.
Answer. I was hoping you were going to skip that.
Question. Exhibit 2 refers to the sister state relationship that I had talked about earlier.
Answer. Yes.
Question. And did you have anything to do with the planning of the sister state relationship?
Answer. You know, I recall something about it, but not really—I mean, I could have been involved in some of the logistics, but I have no recollection of it. I certainly had no responsibility for it.
Question. The Exhibit 2, the letter from Mr. Giroir, states that—referring to the President's attendance at the signing, and it said that, ''Mack''—who I believe is Mack McLarty—''and Mark Middleton indicate it will be a determination made by the director of national security and that the human rights controversy surrounding East Timor may be an impediment that will have to be overcome. I note Doug Buford is speaking with Bruce Lindsey about this this week.''
Do you recall speaking to Bruce Lindsey about that issue?
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Answer. No.
Question. And the next——
Answer. You are talking about Timor and the impediment to the President.
Question. Did you speak to Bruce Lindsey about the President attending any of the Arkansas delegation events?
Answer. I remember talking to Bruce about whether or not the President was going to be at the Arkansas delegation reception, but I had no knowledge of this—any of these impediments or security matters or any of that, nothing about the details.
It would have been whether or not I was going to see Bruce, whether or not I was going to see the President while I was there, letting him know I was going to be in attendance, looking forward to seeing him. And I did, like, have breakfast with Bruce and his wife while I was there.
Question. Did you discuss——
Answer. And dinner, as a matter of fact.
Question. Did you discuss your conversations with Mr. Lindsey with Mr. Giroir?
Answer. Not that I recall.
Question. Just trying to determine how Mr. Giroir knew that you were speaking with Bruce Lindsey.
Answer. I don't know that he did.
Question. And the next sentence notes that John Huang has spoken directly to the President and the President has indicated, in general, he is agreeable to do it.
Were you aware of John Huang speaking to the President about the APEC summit in 1993?
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Answer. No.
Question. Do you know Mack McLarty?
Answer. Yes.
Question. How do you know Mack McLarty?
Answer. I met him on the steps at the library at the University of Arkansas in 1967, probably, and we have been friends ever since, and my law firm has represented him and his family for however long I have been practicing.
Question. And did you remain in contact with Mr. McLarty when he left Arkansas to go to the White House?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Did you speak with Mr. McLarty about the 1993 APEC conference, the one referred to in Exhibit 2?
Answer. Not that I recall.
Now I still represent him, and we talk regularly.
Question. But no specific conversation?
Answer. Not that I recall. I mean, it could have come up, but I don't have any recollection of it.
Question. Did you speak with Mr. Middleton, Mark Middleton, about the 1993 APEC conference?
Answer. During that period of time, from January of '93 until—when was this?—October, November, I was involved in personal representation of a number of people in the White House with regard to their ethics qualifications.
McLarty's family assets are significant, and we were working on recusal letters, blind trusts, management trusts, and I had a lot of responsibility for trying to set up acceptable means for his family businesses to continue without his participation and negotiating with ethics and White House counsel, and, you know.
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So I was in contact, and Mark was working for Mack at the time, so there were numerous conversations and numerous visits to the White House, where I would be here and assisting them in those matters, as well as Bruce and Nancy Hernreich and David Watkins and a number of other people that were here at that time. My firm did a lot of that work, as you might expect.
So, you know, when Mark and I had conversations, but it was generally—I mean, other than, you know, him communicating back and forth between Mack, conveying messages to Mack, or me telling things from Mack, it could have come up in conversations I had with them.
Question. Did you have anything to do with the actual vetting process of individuals?
Answer. For what?
Question. For positions at the White House.
Answer. I have been called by the FBI several times.
Question. But the President never asked you to assist in vetting?
Answer. No, coming up here and doing vetting and stuff; no; never got to spend the night in Blair House.
Question. And you may have answered this, but were you aware of the NSC, or National Security Council, objecting to the President attending any ceremony with the Arkansas Indonesian——
Answer. I was generally aware these things are complicated, that meeting, you know, where he went, at an APEC conference. And this was all new to me, but I was learning that, you know, there were a lot of people that had to be involved in making decisions, it was not a simple matter of scheduling; that when he was there, if he, you know, wanted to go to lunch with the Emperor of Japan or something, that it had implications way beyond just the two of them getting together; and if he met with this country, then that country and this country and this country all had reactions. And I was just generally aware of the incredibly difficult time and all the people that had to get involved in getting anywhere, and that was about all of my knowledge.
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Question. Did you attend the 1994 APEC conference in Jakarta?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you assist in planning for an Arkansas group to attend the 1994 APEC conference in Jakarta?
Answer. I can answer those questions if I can go to the restroom first for 2 seconds.
Ms. REMINGTON. Sure.
[Recess.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. Back on the record. I think before we went off, I had asked whether you assisted in the planning for an Arkansas group to attend the 1994 APEC conference in Jakarta.
Answer. Yes and no.
Question. Can you explain that?
Answer. Yes. I was not involved at all in the preparation of that trip. At some point, I received an invitation from Mr. Giroir's office, I recall, or some communication—and it seems like it was a fax or something—talking about an Arkansas delegation, repeating, or going to Jakarta, and my recollection is that at some point I saw a list of people that had been invited or were to be invited, or something. But I did not participate in the preparation of that list.
Question. I will show you a document Bates numbered AIDC 005142 through 5143. It is Deposition Exhibit 3. And Exhibit 3 is a September 26, 1994, letter from Joseph Giroir to Mr. And Mrs. Paul Berry. I will let you review that.
Answer. That looks like something I received.
[Buford Deposition Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.]
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EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. Okay. Were you aware, before you received a letter similar to Exhibit 3, that the Lippo Group or the Riady family was organizing a group to go to the Jakarta APEC?
Answer. I knew it was being discussed. I don't recall how or when, but I was probably aware of something.
Mr. RAPHAEL. For clarification, did you receive this letter as addressed to Mr. and Mrs. Paul Berry?
The WITNESS. No.
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. A letter similar to Exhibit 3?
Answer. I saw a letter similar to that, that is consistent with my earlier recollection that I saw some correspondence. It was like an invitation from Giroir, and it was—directed people to Poe Travel, I recall, and those arrangements—he was making those arrangements.
Question. Were you ever asked to assist in the organization of this Arkansas delegation?
Answer. By?
Question. By anyone?
Answer. Not that I recall. I mean, I think I got this and responded to it.
Question. Was it your understanding that Mr. James Riady was involved in organizing a group of Arkansans to go to the 1994 APEC?
Mr. LASSITER. I object to the question if it involves a question that involves attorney-client privilege.
The WITNESS. I got this letter, and it says the Riady family. I know I knew about it at that point.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. Independent of receiving a letter similar to Exhibit 3, did you understand that James Riady was involved in organizing a group of Arkansans to attend the 1994 APEC?
Mr. LASSITER. I now have the same objection I just registered. I advise you not to answer the question if it involves an attorney-client communication.
Ms. REMINGTON. Just so we are clear about what you would be claiming as attorney-client privilege, would it be any communication whatsoever between James Riady and Mr. Buford?
Mr. LASSITER. Any communication, of course, in his representation of the Lippo Group.
Ms. REMINGTON. For the purpose of seeking or obtaining legal advice on a matter?
Mr. LASSITER. Yes, or for the purpose of having discussions with Mr. Riady in that capacity.
Ms. REMINGTON. I would just put on the record our understanding, and as I had told you earlier, the legislative body of the House of Representatives does not have to accept a claim of attorney-client or work product privilege.
However, generally, during this investigation, we have honored those claims. But our understanding of it, of an attorney-client privilege, would be a communication made in confidence to an attorney by a client for the purpose of seeking or obtaining legal advice.
Mr. LASSITER. Then I think we can work with that definition.
Mr. RAPHAEL. Understanding that privilege is the client's to waive and not the attorney's.
Page 1060 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
The WITNESS. Right. And the difficulty is, he is not here, and I couldn't have anticipated the question, so I don't have any permission to get outside of whatever he considers privilege.
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. Did you provide any legal advice to Mr. Riady about the 1994 APEC summit?
Mr. LASSITER. Same objection.
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. Did you ever discuss the 1994 APEC summit with Mr. Riady in front of anyone, with third parties present?
Answer. Not to my recollection, no.
Question. Did you ever discuss the 1994 APEC summit with Mr. Riady at all?
Mr. LASSITER. Same objection.
Ms. REMINGTON. I guess I am not understanding.
Mr. LASSITER. I am simply objecting to it within the boundaries of the attorney-client issue as you defined it and Mr. Raphael defined it a moment ago.
As to discussions with third parties that aren't privileged, certainly you can ask about that.
Ms. REMINGTON. My problem is, if you make the objection but there was no understanding of attorney-client privilege or if it was a casual conversation, a personal conversation, I would think that Mr. Buford could still answer that. So although the objection is made, I think he would have an understanding of whether or not it could be answered or not.
Mr. LASSITER. Why don't Mr. Buford and I step out a second, and I will ask him that, and maybe he will be able to answer the question.
Page 1061 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
[Recess.]
Mr. LASSITER. Why don't you go back through your questions in terms of whether or not he had discussions with Mr. Riady prior to receiving this letter.
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. I asked you earlier, did you have any discussions with Mr. Riady about the 1994 APEC conference?
Answer. Yes. I mean, the time frames. I mean, I don't know if it is before or after this letter, or whenever, but, I mean, I was aware—at some point I was aware. I may not have been aware until I got this letter.
Question. Aware of?
Answer. Of this proposed trip.
Question. And did you discuss the proposed trip with Mr. Riady?
Answer. Eventually, after I was aware of this letter.
Question. And if you are able, what did you discuss?
Answer. Well, I told him I wasn't coming.
Question. And did he respond?
Answer. Yes.
Question. What did he say?
Answer. He was disappointed.
Mr. LASSITER. Let me make clear for the record why I did not object at that point. Mr. Buford had been invited in his capacity of his work with the Chamber of Commerce and not as a legal adviser.
The WITNESS. Right. The conversation that I had with him was whether he needed me there or whether I was coming—I was invited on this letter because, I thought, because of the Chamber of Commerce and my participation in the business community in Arkansas.
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When I found out that I was not going to go, I notified him I was not going to go and asked him if he had—if we had work to do there, and he said I didn't have to, or no, and I said, ''Well, I am not coming then,'' and he just expressed disappointment about the fact I wasn't coming.
Question. And why didn't you go?
Answer. Sometime during this process, I was contacted by Bruce Lindsey, I think, and he asked me if I had seen a list of people or was aware of people going to the APEC meeting in Jakarta, and I said that I was aware of it but I wasn't part of organizing it, and that I had gotten an invitation from Giroir, and that I assumed that Giroir was organizing, or Tucker, or somebody else. And he told me that there was concern at the White House about, you know, a number of people from Arkansas making the trip to Jakarta, and they didn't think it would look good, and that, you know, it would cause press inquiries or something. And I said I didn't understand that.
I mean, you know, we wanted to go, we thought we had—you know, we spend, you know, millions of dollars making economic development opportunities, we go to foreign countries, we visit Japan and all that, and this was an opportunity to be identified with the current administration at an important economic conference, and we wanted to go.
And that conversation went on, and, you know, he again—I think we adjourned that conversation and maybe had another conversation, or he said, let me go back and find out what the objections are, what the problems are.
And eventually, in the course of that, he came back and said, you know, we don't think it is a good idea, I can't stop you from going, but we would rather you all not go. And I said, well, I will communicate your feelings to, I think, Giroir. I mean, I think I communicated it to Giroir.
I had some conversation and passed on that they—that the list—that that big a delegation, the White House didn't think it was a good idea. And I either had that conversation with Giroir or—when did Huang go to Commerce?
Page 1063 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Question. July of 1994.
Answer. And this was?
Question. APEC was in November of 1994.
Answer. So it must have been Giroir. I had a conversation with Giroir about the list. And there was some communication about, you know, who needed to go or what different people were going.
And at some point I got information back that there were like five or six people that really felt like they wanted to go, in spite of the objections, and I don't remember who they were, but there was a short list that, like, Energy or something, that had something going on there.
I remember having a conversation with the guy at the University of Arkansas who was trying to get an endowment for the Fulbright College, and he wanted to go because he had been in negotiations with the Riady family about a contribution with the university, and I can't remember, but there was something about that.
I communicated that back to Lindsey, and I said, look, cut the list back, and here is who is on the list now, and here is the reasons that they think they want to go. And we talked about it, and he asked me if I was going to go, and I said I would like to go, and he said—I mean, we talked about that and whether it was a good idea for me to go in my capacity as chamber representative, you know, and he eventually said no.
Question. So he asked you not to go?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Was the Lippo Group or Riady family paying for a group of people to attend, this original group, to attend the APEC conference?
Answer. You know, this was the extent of my knowledge. I mean, it said here that they invite you as a guest to attend and they are going to pay for your airfare.
Page 1064 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Mr. RAPHAEL. You are looking at Exhibit 3 when you say that?
The WITNESS. Yes. And I don't know who was paying for that, other than the knowledge that I got from that letter right there.
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. Riady about who would be paying for——
Answer. No. I called Poe Travel.
Question. And what did they tell you?
Answer. They told me I could go and that they would send me a ticket, but they didn't tell me who was paying for it.
Question. In 1994, what was your understanding of what the Lippo Group or Riady family was doing in connection with the conference?
Answer. I had no knowledge of it.
Question. Were you in contact with Marsha Scott about the 1994 APEC conference?
Answer. Not that I recall.
Question. Were you aware of anyone else contacting Ms. Scott about the APEC conference in 1994?
Answer. I don't recall. I mean, I have not reviewed anything, notes or anything. I don't have any recollection of discussing anything with her about it.
Mr. LASSITER. Mr. Buford, a moment ago when you were on the conversation with Mr. Lindsey, counsel asked you first at the deposition to bring it to her attention if that was the gist of the conversation, rather than a detailed recital of it, so perhaps you should make clear for the record whether your testimony was a detailed recital or the gist.
Page 1065 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
The WITNESS. It was the gist. I don't have any recollection of what specifically was said.
Ms. REMINGTON. Exhibit 4 would be a document Bates EOP 020359, and Exhibit 4 is a September 21, 1994 memorandum from Mr. John Huang to Joe Hanna, and I will give you an opportunity to review that.
The WITNESS. Okay.
[Buford Deposition Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. Have you ever seen this memorandum?
Answer. Not that I know of.
Question. Do you know Joe Hanna?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Who is Joe Hanna?
Answer. He was an employee of the Lippo Group.
Question. Do you know if he also goes by Jose Hanna?
Answer. I think his name—he is Brazilian, and I think his name is probably Jose.
Question. Have you ever personally met Mr. Hanna?
Answer. He was an employee of the Lippo Group, and I dealt with him in a professional capacity.
Question. You had mentioned earlier that you had seen a list of names. Was it similar to this list of names in Exhibit 4?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Do you recall where you saw that list of names?
Answer. I recall it was faxed to my office.
Page 1066 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Question. By whom?
Answer. My recollection is, it came in connection with this invitation.
Question. Of Exhibit 3?
Answer. Yes, of the sample of the invitation you have addressed to Paul Berry.
Question. Is this similar, Exhibit 4—I'm sorry; is Exhibit 4 similar to the list of names that you spoke with Bruce Lindsey about?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And does—this memorandum is addressed to Mr. Huang. Does this refresh your recollection as to whether you may have discussed this at all with Mr. Huang?
Answer. No.
Question. Number 15 on the list is Webster Hubbell. Do you know why he was on the list?
Answer. No.
Question. In the course of trying to cull this list down, did you ever ask anyone why Mr. Hubbell was on the list of names to go?
Answer. No.
Question. At this time in 1994, were you aware of Mr. Hubbell working with the Lippo Group?
Answer. No.
Question. Other than press accounts, in 1994, did you ever become aware that Mr. Hubbell was working for the Lippo Group?
Answer. No.
Question. When did you first learn that Mr. Hubbell was working for the Lippo Group?
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Answer. I have never learned that, other than press accounts.
Question. Did you ever speak with Bruce Lindsey about where Mr. Hubbell was working?
Answer. Yes.
Question. What did you discuss?
Answer. In discussing the list with him, he asked me why Webb was on the list, and I said he may be doing work for the Lippo Group, I don't know.
Question. And where did you get the impression he may have been doing work for the Lippo Group?
Answer. Webb called me, after he left Justice, and we were talking, I don't recall when, but at some point after he left Justice, and, you know, we were talking about what he was doing and where he was going to work and stuff like that, and he asked me—told me he was doing consulting work and asked me if I thought the Lippo Group would be able to use him or whether he could work for them or not.
Question. And what did you tell him?
Answer. I told him I didn't know.
Question. Did you put him in touch with anyone?
Answer. I passed that request on, I believe, to John Huang. He was in Los Angeles at the time.
Question. Did you have any other discussions with Mr. Hubbell, any further discussions?
Answer. No, not about that.
Question. And what did you tell Mr. Huang about Mr. Hubbell at that time?
Mr. LASSITER. I am going to object to that based on the attorney-client privilege. It was during the time Mr. Huang was employed as an officer of the Lippo Group. But let me talk to you about that a little bit. I intend to contact his lawyer.
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Ms. REMINGTON. Whose lawyer?
Mr. LASSITER. Huang's attorney, to find out if he considered that a privileged communication, and if he does not, then we will reply to that question.
And just let me talk to him about how we might do that. I anticipate we are not going to be able to do that today. We have tried to call his attorney; Doug has tried to contact him. And when we reach him, if he indicates that Mr. Huang did not consider that to be a privileged communication, can we supplement the deposition by Mr. Buford answering the question by phone or give you an affidavit under oath or something?
Ms. REMINGTON. Before we close the deposition, I will call our chief counsel and ask about what he wants to do about that.
The WITNESS. I may be able to reach him on the phone if you want me to try to reach him now.
Ms. LASSITER. That is fine if you would like to.
The WITNESS. Do you want to skip this and come back?
Mr. LASSITER. The answer is very brief, so you might want to just go on, but I do not feel comfortable in letting my client answer the question without hearing Mr. Huang's answer.
Ms. REMINGTON. Okay. We can come back to that towards the end of the deposition.
The WITNESS. Okay. It is not going to be very exciting. I tell you what, I can briefly call my office and try to get in touch with his lawyer, and when they reach him, they can call my telephone.
[Recess.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. Back on the record, after Mr. Buford had a conversation with Mr. Huang's attorney.
Page 1069 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Can you answer the question as to the content of your conversation with Mr. Huang?
Answer. Yes. I told him that—and I think this was in connection with another conversation. I mean, it is somewhere after Hubbell called me. I told John that Hubbell had asked me about the possibility of doing work for the Lippo Group, and that I was passing that on to him for whatever purpose he felt appropriate, but that I wanted him to understand that that was a personal conversation with Webb, that I had not had any communications with anybody else about it, nobody at the White House had contacted or was making any effort through me to assist Webb, and that if he chose to convey it on to the Lippo Group, that I wanted them to be sure and understand that I was communicating on behalf of Webb Hubbell, my friend and law partner, I mean, and law student, and lawyer, from Little Rock, and that was all.
Question. And why did you clarify that?
Answer. I wanted to make sure that, because of the frequent contact I had with Lindsey and with the President and other people, that nobody would confuse the message, and I knew that it was going to go through John to somebody else, and I just wanted him to be aware that there was—nobody would be confused, that Webb called me as a friend, and that I was passing on information as a friend.
Question. Did you think that there would be a different response if they thought the request was from the White House?
Answer. I didn't know, but I didn't want to be party to any confusion, I mean.
Question. Do you recall when Mr. Hubbell called you?
Answer. No.
Question. He announced—just to help you with the time frame, he announced his resignation on March 14, 1994; didn't actually leave the Justice Department until April 8, 1994.
Page 1070 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Do you recall if he called you after he had already left the Justice Department?
Answer. I think he was in Mr. Miller's office, and I think at the time, I remember him giving me a phone number or something, how to reach him, just, you know—I mean, it was more just an informational call, as I recall. I don't remember—I mean, he may have had business on his mind when he called. I thought he was just calling to talk to me about where he was and how to reach him and what he was doing.
Question. And from your last question, your last answer, did you know Webb Hubbell before?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Before he went to Washington?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And what was your relationship with Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. He and I were—went to school together for 7 years. I mean, I knew him as an undergraduate and a graduate. We were in the same law school class, law review together. We were friends.
Question. Was the conversation with Mr. Lindsey about the APEC conference, was that the only time you discussed Mr. Hubbell's employment with Mr. Lindsey?
Answer. If you recall, at the time, I was asked why Webb was on the list, and I said, based on this conversation I had with Webb, that he could possibly have been doing work for Riady. But I didn't know; I had no knowledge.
After the conversation that I had with John Huang, where I passed the information on, I don't recall having a conversation with anybody about Webb's employment.
Question. Was that Mr. Hubbell's employment in general or employment with the Lippo Group?
Page 1071 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 3 Of 4
Answer. With the Lippo Group.
Question. Are you familiar with a company named Hong Kong China, Limited?
Answer. I believe it is part of the Lippo Group, but I am not sure.
Question. Do you know what type of business Hong Kong China, Limited, engaged in?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you ever come to learn what type of work Mr. Hubbell was doing for the Lippo Group?
Answer. No.
Question. When did you first become aware that Mr. Hubbell had legal problems with his former law firm, the Rose Law Firm?
Answer. My law firm represented Webb Hubbell in connection with matters as early as January of '93, so anything that I learned after January would have been in connection with my law firm's representation.
Question. And Mr. Hubbell retained your firm in——
Answer. No, no, not Mr. Hubbell. We did not represent Mr. Hubbell. We represented other people in connection with matters related to.
Question. Matters related to Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. The Rose Law Firm.
Question. I think we are cross talking here. Can we get that in one sentence?
Answer. Yes, yes.
Question. Wright, Lindsey & Jennings represented the Rose Law Firm in matters relating to Mr. Hubbell?
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Answer. No. My law firm represented clients who were involved in matters involving the Rose Law Firm and Webb Hubbell's problems with that law firm.
Do you want to go off the record a minute and I can help you out?
Ms. REMINGTON. Sure.
[Discussion off the record.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. Did you have any discussions about Mr. Hubbell's legal problems or billing disputes with anyone at the White House before Mr. Hubbell announced his resignation from the Justice Department on March 14, 1994?
Answer. No.
Question. Were you aware before March 14, 1994, that Mr. Hubbell was planning on resigning from the Justice Department?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you have any conversations with Jim Blair about Mr. Hubbell's legal problems or billing disputes with his law firm before Mr. Hubbell announced his resignation?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you ever discuss with Mr. Hubbell his legal problems or billing dispute with the Rose Law Firm before March of 1994?
Answer. No.
Question. During the spring of 1994, did you have any discussions with anyone at the White House about helping Mr. Hubbell to find work?
Answer. No.
Question. Were you aware of—in mid to late 1994, were you aware of Mr. Hubbell traveling to East Asia to meet with the Lippo Group?
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Answer. No.
Question. Were you aware of him traveling to East Asia at that time?
Answer. No.
Question. Let me go back to Exhibit 4, which is this memorandum, which we began talking about some time ago.
Answer. Okay. All right.
Question. And if we can just go through some of these names, and you said you had discussed with someone why these people might be going?
Answer. No. I think that what happened was, they—in the conversation with Bruce when he identified they had a problem with this big a delegation going, I conveyed that back, I believe, to Giroir, and at that point there were—I don't think I have—I did not sit down and go through this list and say who is going, who is not, who is going, why would they go.
The next thing I remember is a conversation back, I guess, from Giroir, saying they have agreed to cut down the list, or the list has been cut down, we think these five or six people ought to go.
Question. Okay.
Answer. And here is why they ought to go.
So that the only discussion I had about anybody about why they were going is the people I was told back about and Bruce asking me why Hubbell was on the list. Those are the only conversations I recall about any of these people. But I know them all.
Question. Do you know Paul Berry?
Answer. Yes.
Question. How do you know Paul Berry?
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Answer. He was quarterback of my fraternity's intramural football team, and a good one.
Mr. LASSITER. Phi Alpha?
The WITNESS. Phi Alpha.
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. Do you conduct any business with Paul Berry at this time?
Answer. No.
Question. Are you aware of Paul Berry having any business with the Lippo Group in the 1995, 1996 time frame?
Answer. No.
Question. Are you aware of Paul Berry having a relationship with James Riady in the 1993 to the present time frame?
Answer. I mean, I know they know each other, I don't have any knowledge of any business relationship.
Question. Document Bates numbered EOP 030679 is Deposition Exhibit No. 5, and Exhibit 5 is an undated memorandum from Bruce Lindsey to Mack McLarty and John Podesta regarding: Arkansas delegation to APEC. And I will give you an opportunity to read that.
Answer. Okay.
[Buford Deposition Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. In that Exhibit 5, Mr. Lindsey writes that he spoke with John Tisdale and you about the Arkansas delegation to the APEC conference. And we discussed earlier that conversation. Were you aware that Mr. Tisdale had spoken with Mr. Lindsey?
Answer. I think we were on the same call.
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Question. Was it a conference call?
Answer. It was in my office, yes.
Question. How was Mr. Tisdale involved in the APEC conference?
Answer. He went to Seattle with us. He was a part of that delegation. He is my law partner, and he probably was assisting in negotiating—I mean, if the White House was concerned, if Bruce was concerned about the list, and he had been charged with responsibility to communicate to me to try to stop this delegation or advise us that they didn't want us to go, then I would have consulted John about it, and Bruce may have—I mean, that may have been how I learned of Bruce's concerned.
John has a similar relationship with Bruce than I do. We are close personal friends; John does personal work. I mean, our law firm still represents Bruce, and John has responsibility for that work, so he would have been—I would have appealed to him for help, and we would have—usually, a lot of times when we talk to Bruce, you know, if I am on the phone with Bruce, since he is so hard to get, I will call John or buzz him and say, I got Bruce if you need him, and we share that, since he doesn't always return our phone calls.
Question. Was Mr. Tisdale also involved in the conversation with Mr. Giroir, about whittling down the list?
Answer. I still don't have any recollection of me participating in that whittling down, so even reading this memo makes me think that—I mean, even though Bruce says that I negotiated the revised list with Riady, I don't think that—I don't know where he got that idea. I don't have any recollection of having any conversations with Riady about that, except in connection with my coming, when I talked to him, really to notify him that I was not coming, because Giroir was the one that I thought was responsible for doing all of this.
Question. Do you know if Mr. Lindsey spoke with Mr. Giroir?
Answer. I don't have any idea.
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Question. In the second paragraph of Exhibit 5, Mr. Lindsey wrote that he, meaning you, believes his presence will help to control the group.
Answer. I don't know. I hope he thinks he was a reasonable person and would—you know, I never understood their concern for why we should have been there in the first place.
Mr. RAPHAEL. I would note for the record the word ''control'' is in quotes in the document.
Ms. REMINGTON. Yes.
The WITNESS. I don't know what he meant by that.
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. At the end of the memorandum, Mr. Lindsey had noted that James Riady and his father wanted to visit briefly with President Clinton. Were you aware at that time that Mr. Riady wanted to meet with President Clinton?
Answer. I don't have any recollection of being the source of that information.
Question. Do you know whether Mr. Riady met with President Clinton during the APEC conference?
Answer. No, I don't. Mr. Riady being James Riady.
Question. James Riady.
Answer. Okay.
Question. Apart from this APEC conference, and other than press accounts, are you aware of any other meetings between James Riady and President Clinton?
Answer. Other than?
Question. Press accounts?
Answer. Other than press accounts? Other than which meetings? Other than the APEC meeting when I was in the room with them together?
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Question. Right. I am talking more of a—not a group meeting where there are hundreds of people present, but a small meeting for the purpose of just meeting with Mr. Riady.
Answer. I have some recollection of he and his family having their picture made in the Oval Office or something like that one time. I think it was some—I can't remember who told me or how, but I don't have any recollection of ever being involved in setting up any appointments or anything like that. It may have been mentioned to me by Mark Middleton or something, in a conversation that I was having in connection with Mack or something, that he was there or had been there or something. But other than that, no.
Question. Was Mr. Middleton aware that you worked with the Riadys?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And you understood that Mr. Middleton knew the Riadys as well?
Answer. He worked for Mack. I mean, I think he—yes.
Question. It was your understanding?
Answer. Yes, yes.
Question. I am just going to go through some meetings, and I realize there have been press accounts with these meetings, but if you have any other knowledge, other than press accounts, let me know.
Were you aware of a meeting which the President had with Mr. Riady in late June 1994, and that was shortly before Mr. Huang began working at the Commerce Department in July?
Answer. No, no. I don't have any recollection. I really don't have any recollection of any meetings with Riady and anybody in the White House, except that recollection that he—that his family—I mean, the only reason I remember is, it is when he had his family's picture made, and I don't know that ever happened, but it was something about his family.
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Question. You mentioned that Mr. Middleton may have mentioned that Mr. Riady was in the White House. Actually, did Mr. Middleton ever mention to you?
Answer. It could have come up in a conversation. That would have been a logical source of information, because Mark and I talked a lot during that period of time in connection with my work for Mack, and, you know, he would mention people from Arkansas or connected to Arkansas that had been there.
You know, he would not—it would not be uncommon for him to say so-and-so came through the other day, or I gave so-and-so a tour, or I talked with so-and-so. I mean, they were—at that time, they were kind of dislocated Arkansans and they would like to see a friendly face.
Question. Did Mr. Middleton ever mention to you that Mr. Huang visited him at the White House?
Answer. No, I don't know that he ever mentioned that he visited with him. I mean——
Question. That he saw Mr. Huang?
Answer. He talked with Huang. I mean, I knew Huang and he talked.
Question. And were you aware of the substance of their conversations?
Answer. No.
Question. How did you become aware that they had conversations?
Answer. John may say, I talked to Mark yesterday, or Mark may say, I talked to John, but, I mean, they would not have—I mean, it was a friendly thing. It was—like I say, when I would talk to Mark, he would identify people he had talked with and what he was doing and who he was visiting with.
Question. What was your understanding of the nature of the relationship between Mr. Huang and Mr. Middleton?
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Answer. None that I know of. I mean, he was an employee of Lippo at that time, but he had been active in the campaign, and, you know—and Mark had responsibility at some point, as his job in the White House, for kind of looking after Arkansans. I mean, you know, he was kind of a contact point for people in Arkansas that, you know—or the White House tour, whatever. And there were invitations coming out then. You got invited to parties on the lawn and, you know, stuff like that. So there were, you know, just social stuff that went on.
Question. I know we had spoken at the beginning of the deposition about Mr. Huang's activities in relation to the 1992 Presidential campaign, and I don't know if I have clarified whether you knew of Mr. Huang solely working in California or also in Arkansas during——
Answer. For the campaign?
Question. Yes, or working on projects for the campaign?
Answer. I don't have any recollection of doing much in Arkansas. I mean, his responsibility, you know—the campaign had different ethnic groups identified, and they had campaign organization staff that were devoted to different minority groups, and Asian American was one of those groups that was identified within the campaign, and they had their own small campaign staff, and I don't know, but I believe John Huang would have been part of that effort.
Question. Do you know who else was on that staff?
Answer. No. Doris Matsui, I think, eventually ended up in the White House, as had Asian American affairs, but I am sure they were involved at some point, but I was not involved in that.
Question. How did you learn of Mr. Huang's activities in the campaign?
Answer. '92 or '94?
Question. '92.
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Answer. Only afterwards.
Question. Did you have an understanding of any relationship which Mr. Middleton may have had with Mr. Riady?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know whether Mr. Middleton did any work for Mr. Riady after he left the White House in February of 1995?
Answer. No.
Question. I'm sorry, that was a bad question. No, you don't know, or, no, he didn't do any work?
Answer. No, I don't know.
Question. Once Mr. Huang began working at the Commerce Department, in July of 1995, were you aware at that time, in the July of '95 and later time period—I'm sorry, July of '94——
Answer. Right, I'm with you.
Question. Of Mr. Huang meeting with Mr. Middleton at the White House?
Answer. No.
Question. Are you aware of a joint venture between Lippo, Entergy, and the North China Power Group which was formed to build a power plant in China?
Answer. Other than press accounts, no.
Question. Did you have any participation in the creation of that joint venture in any way?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you participate in any Commerce Department trade missions under then Secretary Ron Brown?
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Answer. No, not to my knowledge.
Question. Do you have any dealings with Melinda Yee at the Department of Commerce?
Answer. Not that I recall.
Question. Do you know Melinda Yee?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And how do you know Ms. Yee?
Answer. I just met her—John Tisdale introduced me to her.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of who she might be calling at your law firm?
Answer. My recollection is that she had an African partner in my law firm, Wendell Griffin, participated in a Minority Partners in Majority Firms, an ABA-sponsored activity, and I believe that is where Wendell met her, and through that, she, you know, could have been friends or, you know, was introduced to our firm. And beyond that, I don't have any idea. He is not with us anymore; he is a judge now. But I believe that was our initial contact with her.
Question. And you mentioned that Mr. Tisdale introduced you to her?
Answer. I think he did.
Question. Do you know how Mr. Tisdale knew her?
Answer. I am guessing through Wendell, but I would be guessing.
Question. Did Mr. Huang ever discuss with you any Commerce Department trade missions?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know Joe O'Brien?
Answer. No.
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Question. No?
Answer. I don't think so.
Question. Did you want to take a break?
Do you know Larry Middleton?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And how do you know Larry Middleton?
Answer. He works for Steven Zing in Little Rock, Arkansas.
Question. Are you aware of any business which the Riadys had with Larry Middleton?
Answer. Not other than press accounts.
Question. Do you know of any business which John Huang had with Larry Middleton?
Answer. Not other than press accounts.
Question. Document Bates numbered EOP 010183 through 010186 will be Deposition Exhibit No. 6. And Exhibit 6 is a January 16th, 1996 memorandum, from Doug to Mack, regarding the background for Ira's meeting with James Riady. And there are three fax cover sheets attached to the memorandum, and I will give you an opportunity to review that.
Answer. Okay.
[Buford Deposition Exhibit No. 6 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. Have you ever seen the memorandum that is part of Exhibit 6?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Did you write that memorandum?
Answer. I did.
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Question. Was Exhibit 6 a memorandum for Mack McLarty?
Answer. I recall being asked to supply some background information on Riady to—for a meeting that Ira Magaziner was going to have with him in Jakarta, and I did this memo. But I don't recall—you know, I don't recall where the initial request came from, but I would assume that I sent it to Mack, either because he asked for it initially and he was going to get the information to Ira, or somebody connected with Ira, and his trip over there contacted me and said, you know, get it to—and I addressed it to Mack, but I doubt he ever saw it. I mean, I am sure Patty dealt with it.
That looks like my handwriting. It says, not ''Mack,'' but ''Patty,'' so I must have addressed it—I mean, whenever I typed it, I probably would have typed this myself, because this is a memo form that I have in the computer, and I could have brought up this form, and I use it a lot of times, rather than a letter, when I am in a hurry, and I probably typed Mack's name and realized it was going to go to Patty and sent it to her.
I would not have faxed it, somebody else would have, because I can't run a fax machine.
Question. And you don't recall who asked you to supply the background information?
Answer. No. No, I don't recall who asked me initially to do it. I just remember that Ira was going to be in Jakarta, and I was asked to do a short bio on the—Riady, and I notice over here it says somebody has written something in Chicago, Ira Magaziner's meeting in Chicago, and I remember after I sent this, I got a call from Patty, and she said, Ira is not in Chicago, he is in Jakarta, and he is asleep, because of the time frame, and I said, I don't know anything about Chicago. I mean, I never said he was in Chicago.
So somebody was communicating with them besides me, because somebody gave her this bogus information about Chicago. So there is somebody else in this process, but I don't know who it is.
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But I do remember her confusion, because she is good at, you know, following through, and she wanted to call and tell me that Ira wasn't in Chicago, he was in Jakarta, and he was asleep, and I said, I never said he was in Chicago, so you got that from somebody else.
Question. Why was James Riady meeting with Mr. Magaziner?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. At this time, was Mr. Magaziner at the Department of Commerce?
Answer. I don't think—I think he was at the White House. He was appointed as some sort of ambassador after the health care task force was disbanded, and I don't know what his portfolio was in the White House, but I know at some point, from press accounts, that he was appointed to go fly around the world and try to assist in trade—you know, work on trade.
And I don't have any knowledge of what he was doing or who told him to go or where. I mean, I thought at the time they asked me to do this that he was in Jakarta in connection with that assignment from the President to go to these various places around the world and come back and report on how to improve trade.
Question. What was the purpose of the meeting between Mr. Riady and Mr. Magaziner?
Answer. I have pretty much told you all I know. I mean, I don't have any idea. I don't even know if that is why he was there. I thought that when they asked me to write this memo, but I didn't ask why they were meeting or anything about it.
Mr. RAPHAEL. Do you know if they, in fact, met?
The WITNESS. No, I don't know if he was in Jakarta.
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
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Question. Did you suggest to Ms. McHugh that anyone should tell Mr. Magaziner about James Riady's relationship with the President?
Answer. Say that again.
Question. Did you suggest to Ms. McHugh or anyone that someone should tell Mr. Magaziner about James Riady's relationship with the President?
Answer. You know, I thought that was part of what I was being asked to do here, was to give a bio on James Riady and who he was, and identify his Arkansas connection is what I would call it.
Mr. LASSITER. I would like to take a break for a couple minutes.
[Recess.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. REMINGTON:
Question. Back on the record. When did you first learn that John Huang was working at the Democratic National Committee?
Answer. Probably when he went to work there. I don't recall. I mean, I don't have any—I don't even know when he went. I can't even remember how long he was at Commerce.
Question. Were you aware that he was seeking a position at the Democratic National Committee?
Answer. I was aware he was unhappy at Commerce.
Question. And how did you become aware that he was unhappy at Commerce?
Answer. He told me.
Question. What did he tell you?
Answer. He told me he didn't like it.
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Question. Did he tell you anything else?
Answer. No. He just said that, you know, it just wasn't what he expected.
Question. When did you have this discussion with him?
Answer. I don't recall specifically, but he was separated from his family when he came here. His family was in LA, and he has children in school out there, and so I knew that he was, you know, here, living with his father-in-law.
So if I were come—if I would come into town on other business or whatever, it would not be uncommon for me to call and tell him, and we would, you know, maybe eat lunch or something, if he wasn't busy, just, you know, because I knew he was away from home by himself, and just in the course of those—and he would call me at the office occasionally just to chat about nothing, and he would, you know—I mean, I would say: How do you like your job? How is it going? He says: Well, I am not getting to do what I thought I would get to do.
And I think he was refused out of most of the things he had background in and he just didn't understand the bureaucracy and all the restrictions on his ability to function. And, plus, I don't even know what his job was. I mean, office politics, probably.
Question. Did he ever explain to you what he—what activities he was doing at Commerce?
Answer. Other than these general conversations, I don't even know what his title was. I know he wasn't doing anything in Indonesia. I remember him saying that, that he was recused from anything that had anything to do with Indonesia, or maybe the Pacific, I'm not sure.
Question. Did he tell you that he wanted to get a job at the Democratic National Committee?
Answer. I think at some point he told me he would rather work in the campaign than at the Commerce Department and that he would—he was thinking about trying to go to the campaign, but he had—he had a sense of loyalty to the Commerce Department; they hired him, Ron Brown had—I mean, he didn't—I mean, I remember it kind of being told—heard from being not really happy with what he was doing but not wanting to be ungrateful about the job and his assignment and what he was supposed to be doing, but just kind of wishing he was over in the campaign side again.
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And he knew that was going to be churning up; he knew they were going to start organizing for '96 and that they would be looking for people. And that was kind of the general conversation, I recall.
Question. Did you ever have any discussions with James Riady about Mr. Huang working at the DNC or campaign?
Answer. Not that I recall.
Question. Mr. Huang began working at the DNC in December of 1995. Did you discuss with Mr. Giroir the fact that Mr. Huang wanted to work at the DNC before that?
Answer. I could have. I don't have any recollection. Mr. Giroir and I don't talk often, so I would be surprised if I did, but I could have.
Question. Did you contact anyone on Mr. Huang's behalf to assist him in getting a position at the DNC?
Answer. Not to my recollection. I know I didn't contact anybody at the DNC. I wouldn't know anybody over there.
Question. Did you contact anyone in the White House on Mr. Huang's s behalf?
Answer. You know, if it came up in a conversation with Bruce, or something, that would have been the only thing. Bruce may have said, you know, John is interested in going to the DNC, or something like that, but I don't have any recollection of it.
I mean, it could have been discussed casually, but, you know—and Bruce may have asked me, do you think it is a good idea, or do you think John would do a good job, or something, and I would have commented just on my general knowledge about John's skills.
Question. You don't recall having a specific conversation?
Answer. No.
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Question. At or around the time frame of September of 1995, were you aware of Mr. Huang or Mr. Riady meeting with the President?
Answer. No.
Question. Other than press accounts, did you ever become aware that Mr. Huang or Mr. Riady discussed with the President John Huang moving over to the DNC?
Answer. No.
Question. Did Mr. Lindsey—to your knowledge, did Mr. Lindsey have a relationship with Mr. Huang after the 1992 election?
Answer. Sure.
Question. He knew who he was?
Answer. Sure.
Question. What was your understanding of the type of relationship Mr. Lindsey had with Mr. Huang?
Answer. Just knew that he had worked on the campaign and was interested in administration and was somebody that, you know, was a supporter.
Question. At that time, after the 1992 election, did you ever discuss Mr. Huang with Mr. Lindsey, his Commerce appointment or his qualifications?
Answer. At some point, I think Bruce and I had a conversation about John working in the administration somewhere—it could have been in connection with the Commerce—and just in talking with him, he said, you know, do you think John would do a good job, or, you know, John's been, you know, working for the Lippo Group; I mean, would he be somebody that could work in government, or something like that, and I said, you know, I think he would be good at whatever he wanted to do, something like that.
It would have just been a general conversation like that. I don't think they were looking to me for any guidance on where to put him or how to use him or anything. I know that didn't occur.
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Question. Before any of the news stories of Mr. Huang's fund-raising activities came out, did anyone contact you about Mr. Huang's fund-raising?
Answer. No.
Question. Before any of the news stories came out, did anyone contact you about Mr. Huang's connection to the Lippo Group or the Riady family?
Answer. I'm not sure I understand that. In what connection?
Question. That's a bad question. I will just strike that.
After December 1995, when Mr. Huang began working at the DNC, did you ever speak with James Riady about Mr. Huang's work?
Answer. Not to my recollection.
Question. Were you aware that Mr. Huang was organizing fund-raisers for the DNC?
Answer. Yes.
Question. What was your understanding of what he was doing?
Answer. That's about it. I mean, he had some sort of title at the DNC, but I can't remember what it was. But it indicated in his title that he was a fund-raiser. And I thought that they were utilizing his connections in the Asian American community to organize that community for financial support.
Question. After Mr. Huang began working for the DNC, did you have conversations with him about his job?
Answer. Other than still displaced, no family, and other than me being up here, you know, and just calling him and we went to lunch or something, they would be general conversations about, ''How do you like your job? What are you doing?'' But very generic. I mean, nothing about, you know, ''I'm going here and doing this.''
I mean, he never talked about his travels, never talked about what he was doing, where he was going, how good he was doing, just talked about how hard he was working.
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Question. In 1996, were you aware of James Riady attending any fund-raisers for the DNC?
Answer. I mean, I could have been at a fund-raiser myself when he was there. But, no, not specifically, I mean, unless I was there and saw him or something. I don't recall, you know, what I attended and what I didn't. But I wasn't involved in any organization or anything like that.
Question. Did Mr. Riady ever speak to you about events, fund-raising events, he attended with the President?
Answer. Winston Bryant had a fund-raiser, or the DNC had a fund-raiser for Winston Bryant, at the Hay-Adams Hotel, I think would have been in that '96 time frame. And I was in Washington, and I believe that—I believe I saw Riady at that function. It was in the Hay-Adams. It was in the basement of the Hay-Adams. And I believe he was there at that time.
Question. Did Mr. Middleton assist in arranging that fund-raiser?
Answer. I don't have any idea.
Question. To your knowledge, did Mr. Riady make any contributions to the DNC in the 1995-1996 election cycle?
Answer. No.
Question. To your knowledge, did Mr. Riady make any contributions to the Clinton/Gore Re-elect in the 1995-1996 election cycle?
Answer. No.
Question. And all these questions are, of course, to your knowledge.
Answer. Okay.
Question. Did the Lippo Group or any of its affiliates make any contributions to the DNC during the 1995-1996 election cycle?
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Answer. No.
Question. Similarly, did the Lippo Group or any of its affiliates make any contributions to the Clinton/Gore Re-elect during the 1995-1996 election cycle?
Answer. Not that I know of.
Question. During the 1995-1996 election cycle, did James Riady arrange for any foreign businessmen or individuals to attend fund-raisers with the President?
Answer. Not to my knowledge.
Question. During the 1995-1996 election cycle, did John Huang arrange for foreign businessmen or individuals to attend fund-raisers with the President other than press accounts, if you have any knowledge?
Answer. I don't have any knowledge.
Question. Do you know Charlie Trie?
Answer. No. I mean, you know, not other than seeing him in a restaurant in Little Rock.
Question. You have no personal relationship with him?
Answer. No. No, I wouldn't know him if he walked in the room.
Question. Are you aware of any relationship Mr. James Riady had with Charlie Trie?
Answer. No.
Question. Are you aware of any relationship John Huang had with Charlie Trie?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know Kenneth Wynn?
Answer. Spell that.
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Question. Wynn. W-Y-N-N.
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know of any relationship Kenneth Wynn may have had with James Riady?
Answer. No.
Ms. REMINGTON. I would just like to take a minute to go back through my questions and make sure I didn't miss anything.
Michael, if you would like to ask any questions that you have.
Mr. RAPHAEL. Sure. It is my round?
Ms. REMINGTON. Yes.
Mr. RAPHAEL. Mr. Buford, on behalf of the Minority, I would like to thank you for coming up here today and traveling from Arkansas as a private citizen voluntarily.
As the Majority counsel said at the beginning of the deposition, the committee is engaged in a wide-ranging investigation. And I think you have been subjected to a fairly wide range of questions today; and you have sat here, apparently, and forthrightly responded to them. And I just want to tell you we appreciate that.
The WITNESS. Thank you.
EXAMINATION BY MR. RAPHAEL:
Question. Mr. Buford, you practice corporate law in Arkansas?
Answer. Corporate and securities law.
Question. Is it correct that Mr. Joe Giroir also practices corporate law in Arkansas?
Answer. Yes.
Question. You two are at different firms?
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Answer. Yes.
Question. You sometimes are on the opposite side of transactions?
Answer. Most often.
Question. Do you routinely have exposure to Mr. Giroir's work product?
Answer. Well, routinely would probably be too much. But, yes, he and I have been on the opposite side of transactions a number of times. We're competitors.
Question. You were shown a document, Exhibit 2, which is a letter from Mr. Giroir to James Riady that discusses, in the course of three single-spaced pages, joint ventures involving such companies as the Hunt Company, the Tyson Company, and the Entergy Company.
Answer. Yes.
Question. Would it be correct to say that you don't particularly have exposure to documents from a competitor of Mr. Giroir that involved him setting up such joint ventures?
Answer. Right. I'm not involved. I've never seen them.
Question. If this committee had such documents from you, documents when you were working to set up joint ventures, would you want this committee to be sensitive in who those documents are shown to?
Answer. Well, yes. I mean, they are confidential documents. We have to protect them.
Question. I want to clarify something. You were shown Exhibit 4, which is a list of 27 people, a memo that John Huang sent to Joe Hanna. I believe you testified that that document was similar to a list that you received?
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Answer. Yes.
Question. You don't know, sitting here today, that the list that you received was exactly the same as this list?
Answer. No. I don't think it was. I mean, I think I saw a list of names, but I don't—it was not on a memorandum like this.
Question. So it is possible that the list that you received may have had some differences in the names on this list?
Answer. Right.
Question. Mr. Buford, has the fact that this committee has decided to take your deposition been burdensome to you in any way?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Could you describe for me in what ways?
Answer. Well, I had to employ an attorney. My firm has had to employ an attorney. I'm in the middle of a securities transaction in New York right now, and I've had to employ another partner to be involved for a few days while I was gone. Expense and travel. I was unable to utilize the Government's ticket.
Question. So this committee did offer you a ticket to travel here?
Answer. Somebody did.
Mr. LASSITER. Yes.
The WITNESS. Yeah, they did.
EXAMINATION BY MR. RAPHAEL:
Question. And you were unable to use that?
Answer. I was unable to use that.
Question. Have you been called to testify before the Senate committee that is investigating campaign finances, the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee?
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Answer. No.
Question. And have you not given a deposition?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you given testimony in any way to the Department of Justice in the course of its campaign finance investigation?
Answer. No.
Mr. RAPHAEL. Thank you, Mr. Buford. That is all the questions I have.
Ms. REMINGTON. I just want to clarify for the record that, at the beginning of the deposition, I did state that this was in executive session, and we asked that you not discuss any of the materials that you have seen here or the discussions we have had.
And with that, I don't have any more questions.
[Whereupon, at 1:13 p.m., the deposition was concluded.]
[The exhibits referred to follow:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 668 TO 679 HERE
[The official committee record contains additional material here.]
[The deposition of Mickey Kantor follows:]
Executive Session
| Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, |
| U.S. House of Representatives, |
| Washington, DC. |
DEPOSITION OF: MICKEY KANTOR
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The deposition in the above matter was held in Room 2203, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 8:10 a.m.
Appearances:
Staff Present for the Government Reform and Oversight Committee: Barbara Comstock, Chief Investigative Counsel; David A. Kass, Investigative Counsel; Kenneth Ballen, Minority Chief Investigative Counsel; Michael J. Raphael, Minority Counsel; and Matthew H. Joseph, Minority Counsel.
For MR. KANTOR:
LAWRENCE S. ROBBINS, ESQ.
SEAN P. MOYLAN, ESQ.
Mayer, Brown & Platt
2000 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20006-1882
Ms. COMSTOCK. Good morning. On behalf of the members of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, I would like to welcome you this morning, Mr. Kantor, and thank you for appearing here today.
This proceeding is known as a deposition. The person transcribing this proceeding is a House reporter and notary public. I would like to now request that the reporter place you under oath.
THEREUPON, MICHAEL KANTOR, a witness, was called for examination by Counsel, and after having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
Ms. COMSTOCK. I would like to note for the record those who are present this morning at the beginning of the deposition. My name is Barbara Comstock. I am the designated Majority counsel for the Committee. I am accompanied here this morning by David Kass, who is also with the Majority staff. Ken Ballen is the designated Minority counsel for the Committee this morning. Mr. Ballen is accompanied by Michael Raphael and Michael Joseph, who are also with the Minority staff.
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I am sorry. That is Matthew Joseph.
The deponent is Mr. Kantor this morning, who is represented by Larry Robbins.
Although this proceeding is being held in a somewhat informal atmosphere, because you have been placed under oath, your testimony here this morning has the same force and effect as if you were testifying before the Committee or in a courtroom.
If I ask you about conversations you have had in the past and you are unable to recall the exact words used in the conversation, you may state that you are unable to recall those exact words and then you may give me the gist or substance of any conversation to the best of your recollection.
If you recall only part of a conversation or only part of an event, please give me your best recollection of those events or parts of conversations that you do recall.
If I ask you whether you have any information upon a particular subject, and you have overheard other persons conversing with each other regarding it or have seen correspondence or documentation regarding it, please tell me that you do have such information and indicate the source, either a conversation or documentation or otherwise, from which you have derived such knowledge. If for any reason you have knowledge about topics and are not disclosing that information, we would ask that you provide the privilege or reason for not doing so.
Before we begin the questioning, I would like to give you some background about the investigation and your appearance here.
Pursuant to its authority under House Rules X and XI of the House of Representatives, the Committee is engaged in a review of possible political fund-raising improprieties and possible violations of law under the Committee's jurisdiction.
Pages 2 through 4 of House Report 105–139 summarizes the Committee's investigation as of June 19th, 1997, and encompasses any new matters which arise directly or indirectly in the course of the investigation. Also, pages 4 through 11 of the report explain the background of the investigation. All questions related directly or indirectly to these issues or areas which are discussed in the report, or questions which have a tendency to make the existence of any pertinent fact more or less probable than it would be without the evidence, are proper.
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The committee has been granted specific authorization to conduct this deposition pursuant to House Resolution 167, which passed the full House on June 20th, 1997. Committee Rule 20, of which you received a copy, outlines the ground rules for the deposition.
Majority and Minority Committee counsels will ask you questions regarding the subject matter of the investigation. Minority counsel will ask questions after Majority counsel has finished. After the Minority counsel has completed questioning you, a new round of questioning may begin.
Members of Congress who wish to ask questions will be afforded an immediate opportunity to ask any questions at any time when they may be present at the deposition. When they are finished, Committee counsel will then resume questioning.
Pursuant to the Committee's rules, you are allowed to have an attorney present to advise you of your rights. Any objection raised during the course of the deposition shall be stated for the record by your attorney. If the witness is instructed not to answer a question by his attorney or otherwise refuses to answer a question, Majority and Minority counsel will confer to determine whether the objection is proper. If Majority and Minority counsels agree that a question is proper, the witness will be asked to answer the question. If an objection is not withdrawn, the Chairman or a Member designated by the Chairman may decide whether the objection is proper.
This deposition is considered as taken in executive session of the Committee, which means it may not be made public without the consent of the Committee, pursuant to clause 2(k)7 of House Rule XI. You are asked to abide by the Rules of the House and not discuss with anyone, other than your attorney, this deposition and the issues and questions raised during this proceeding.
Finally, no later than 5 days after your testimony is transcribed and you have been notified that your transcript is available, you may submit suggested changes to the Chairman. We can, with the agreement of the Minority, extend that 5 days, and we can also mail the transcript to you if your scheduled needs necessitate.
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The WITNESS. Thank you.
Ms. COMSTOCK. The transcript will be made available at the Committee office or, again, we can mail it to you. We do ask that you sign a nondisclosure form on that.
Committee staff may make any typographical and technical changes requested by you. Any substantive changes, modifications, clarifications or amendments to the deposition transcript submitted by you must be accompanied by a letter requesting the changes and a statement of your reasons for each proposed change. A letter requesting any substantive changes, modifications, clarifications or amendments must be signed by you. Any substantive changes, modifications, clarifications or amendments shall be included as an appendix to the transcript, conditioned upon your signing of the transcript.
Do you understand everything we have gone over so far?
The WITNESS. Yes, I do.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Do you have any questions about anything we have gone over so far?
The WITNESS. No, I don't.
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me. Ms. Comstock, I need to make a comment on what you read. You stated that the Chairman may make a ruling on any objection. Any objection as to pertinency or relevancy is up to the Committee. Any objection that the Chair decides upon may be appealed to the full Committee. The Committee is the arbiter ultimately of pertinency—thank you—under House Rule XI 2(k)8.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. I just wanted to go over some ground rules initially.
The WITNESS. Sure.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I will be asking you questions concerning the subject matter of this investigation. If you don't understand a question, please say so and I will repeat it or rephrase it so that you do understand the question.
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Do you understand that you should tell me if you do not understand my questions?
The WITNESS. Yes, I understand that.
Ms. COMSTOCK. The reporter will be taking down everything we say and will make a written record of the deposition. You must give verbal, audible answers because the reporter cannot record what a nod of the head or other gesture means.
If you can't hear me, please say so and I will repeat the question or have the court reporter read the question to you.
If you don't know the answer to the question, simply say you do not know. We are not asking you to merely speculate or guess. Do you understand that?
The WITNESS. Yes, I do.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. I would ask that you wait until I finish each question before answering, and I will wait until you finish your answer before I ask the next question.
Do you understand that this will assist the reporter to make a clear record, because she cannot take down what we are both saying at the same time?
The WITNESS. Yes, I understand that.
Ms. COMSTOCK. All right. Your testimony is being taken under oath, as if we were in court. It will be assumed that you understand the questions and answers and that they are intended to be responsive to those questions and answers. Do you understand that?
The WITNESS. Yes, I understand that, as well.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Are you here voluntarily this morning or are you here as a result of a subpoena?
Mr. ROBBINS. He hasn't received a subpoena.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Do you have any questions about the deposition before we begin?
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The WITNESS. No, I don't.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Could you please state your full name and address for the record, please?
Answer. Michael Kantor, [redacted].
Question. Okay. Could you give us your background from college forward, please?
Answer. I graduated from Vanderbilt University in 1961 with a Bachelor of Arts. I was a United States Naval officer from 1961 to 1965. I went to Georgetown night school and worked in the—with the Small Business Administration from 1964 to 1968. I was a legal services lawyer from 1968 until 1972, the summer of '72. I worked on the McGovern for President campaign from August 1st, 1972, until the end of that campaign. After President McGovern was elected—oh, that's right. We didn't win. A little levity.
Question. I recall that night.
Answer. 1973, I began to practice law at the law firm of Manatt Phelps & Rothenberg in Los Angeles, California. I am sorry. 1973, 1974, I was campaign chairman for Alan Cranston of the United States Senate in California. In 1975—I am sorry—I began as a partner of the law firm of Manatt Phelps & Rothenberg, and which later became Manatt Phelps Phillips and Kantor, in Los Angeles, California.
In 1991—and I will skip all the civic and community activities. I assume you don't want that. In 1991, I became chair of the Clinton for President Campaign. On January 21, 1993, I was sworn in as the United States Trade Representative. On April 12, 1996, I was sworn in as Secretary of Commerce. I left that position on January 23rd, 1997. On March 1st, 1997, I became a partner in the law firm of Mayer Brown & Platt, and a senior advisor to the investment firm of Morgan Stanley, and a distinguished lecturer at the Annenberg School of Communications at the University of Southern California.
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Question. Okay. In 1991, when you were chairman of the Clinton for President Campaign, was that a full-time position?
Answer. Not initially.
Question. Okay. Did you leave your law firm at some point?
Answer. Well, I never left my law firm because it never was full-time, but it is—as the campaign proceeded and as the then Governor, soon to be President, became the nominee, I spent more and more time on the campaign and nearly full-time by the end of the campaign.
Question. Were you stationed in Little Rock during the campaign or did you stay in California?
Answer. We moved to Little Rock, Arkansas, in July 1992.
Question. Okay. Prior to that time, were you based in California still?
Answer. Los Angeles, yes.
Question. When you worked with the firm of Manatt Phelps, did you ever have any dealings with any affiliate of the Lippo Group?
Answer. No.
Question. Were you aware, at the time when you were at the firm, that the Lippo Group or any affiliates were a client of the firm?
Answer. I can't recall at that point if I was aware of the Lippo Group as a client. I later learned they were a client of the law firm.
Question. Okay. Do you know when you learned of that?
Answer. I can't specifically recall but it was—I can't specifically recall. It was sometime in 1993 or 1994.
Question. Okay. Do you recall how you learned of that?
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Answer. I learned because a meeting was requested by someone connected with the Lippo Group with me, and I had a policy not to meet with clients of or former clients of my law firm, which was a standard I adhered to all 4 years when I was in public service. And I refused to meet with someone because they were connected to the Lippo Group.
Question. Do you recall who brought that to your attention?
Answer. One staff member of the USTR. It was probably someone in the general counsel's office.
Question. All right. Do you recall how you—was that person in the general counsel's office in touch with your firm as to the firm's clients?
Answer. The general counsel's office had a list of all the firm's clients, in order they could check each meeting that I had to make sure that I would not violate the standard I had set for myself.
Question. And would they have informed you of this by a memo or some type of documentation?
Answer. I doubt it seriously. It was probably verbal, although I don't specifically recall.
Question. Okay. Do you know the process by which the general counsel's office reviewed this list of your firm's former clients?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you know who in the counsel's office worked on such matters?
Answer. It could have been any number of—any one of a number of lawyers.
Question. Do you recall who it was who was attempting to meet with you in 1993 or 1994?
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Answer. I later was told—I did not know at the time—that it was Mr. Riady, James Riady.
Question. Do you recall when you were told that?
Answer. No, I don't.
Question. Was it some time in the past year or two?
Answer. I just don't recall.
Question. Who hired you to be the campaign chairman for the Clinton campaign?
Answer. If you could rephrase the question, I was never paid so I don't think I was hired.
Question. Okay. Who asked you to be the chairman?
Answer. To serve. The then Governor of Arkansas, later to be President of the United States, President Clinton.
Question. All right. And what were your duties in that position?
Answer. Broadly speaking, to oversee all the functions of the campaign.
Question. Did you hire other staff for the campaign in that role?
Answer. I was involved from time to time in the hiring of staff, but I was not directly involved in the hiring of each and every person.
Question. Were you involved in hiring any fund-raisers for the campaign?
Answer. I don't specifically recall. I may have been consulted on the hiring of people involved in the fund-raising operation but I couldn't recall anyone specifically at this point.
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Question. All right. Do you know generally who was in—who you worked with who was in charge of fund-raising in the 1992 campaign?
Answer. Oh, I can recall the people, sure.
Question. Who would those be?
Answer. I can't name them all, of course, because there were a number of people who voluntarily worked on the campaign, but it was generally handled by Rahm Emanuel and Amy Zizic out of the Little Rock office. There were other people around the country who voluntarily or who were part of the payroll. I couldn't obviously name those people. They are too many, too numerous.
Question. Were you familiar with a $3.5 million loan by the Worthen Bank, what is known as a bridge loan, to the 1992 Clinton campaign in the spring of 1992?
Answer. No.
Question. You have no knowledge of anybody who was involved in facilitating that loan?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay. During the 1992 campaign, were you aware of any large number of contributions from anybody affiliated with the Lippo Group?
Answer. No.
Question. Or the Riadys?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you ever meet with James Riady during the 1992 campaign?
Answer. I can recall meeting James Riady at a reception in Little Rock sometime in the late summer of 1992, which involved about 150 people.
Question. All right. And you recall meeting him on that occasion?
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Answer. Yes.
Question. And did you have any discussion with him about who he was or what he did?
Answer. Not that I recall.
Question. All right. How did you know that you—how do you recall that you met him at that time?
Answer. I just recall it. I can't specifically tell you why I recall it, but I do.
Question. Do you recall knowing about him being a donor or a large donor to the campaign?
Answer. I can't recall but it would be—at this point I will just assume, since it was a fund-raiser, and there were 150 people, I just will assume he was there because he contributed to the campaign, but that is an assumption. It's not based on knowledge.
Question. All right. Were you aware of any large contribution by any particular donors being directed to the States in 1992, particularly in September and October of 1992?
Answer. Not that I recall.
Question. Do you know what APAC is, the Asian Pacific Advisory Council, or did you have any contact with that during the 1992 campaign?
Answer. You have—excuse me. I am sorry. You have asked two questions.
Question. I am sorry. Do you know what APAC is?
Answer. Yes, I know what APEC is. The Asian Pacific Economic Conference is an organization of 17 nations who are involved in trade negotiations.
Question. Okay. Do you know an organization called APAC, APAC, the Asian Pacific Advisory Council?
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Mr. ROBBINS. She is not talking about foreign affairs. She is talking about fund-raising.
The WITNESS. I apologize. No, I have never heard of that. To my knowledge, I have never heard of that organization.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay.
Answer. I am sorry.
Mr. ROBBINS. That's all right.
The WITNESS. I wanted to start talking about trade.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay. I am showing the witness a document that is marked E619. I believe it is from the DNC. It is a memo to Dalia Traynham from Melinda Yee, re RHB's schedule, which is Ron Brown's schedule for September 14th, 1992. It is a proposed schedule for Mr. Brown when he was chairman of the DNC in 1992.
Directing your attention to Friday, September 18th, 1992, on that schedule, there is a——
Answer. What date? I am sorry. I apologize.
Question. It is the 18th. I am sorry. It is difficult to read on the copy. It says Thursday, September 17th above and then it says Friday, September 18th.
Answer. Okay. Thank you.
Question. It is difficult to read the copy that we have, but it references on the September 18th date an APAC vote event with the contact being Nora Lum in Torrance, California. And there is a meeting from 10:00 a.m. to 10:30, and at 10:30 to 10:45.
I would direct your attention to the cc on this memo. You are the second individual that was cc'd on this, Mickey Kantor, on here.
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Do you recall—do you ever recall seeing this memo before?
Answer. I have no recollection of this memo whatsoever.
Question. Okay. Do you know if you attended an APAC vote event in—in or around September of 1992, in California?
Answer. I am virtually certain that I did not attend any event of this nature in California in 1992 in September.
Question. Do you know who Nora Lum is?
Answer. I am not certain. I have only read the name Lum in newspapers.
Question. Okay. Do you know if you ever met Ms. Lum in 1992?
Answer. I have no recollection of ever meeting Ms. Lum in 1992.
Question. Do you know if you have met her any time since 1992?
Answer. I have no recollection of meeting Ms. Lum at any time since.
Question. Do you know who Dalia Traynham is?
Answer. I am not sure. I don't know. When I became Secretary of Commerce, there was a Dalia in the office that had worked for Secretary Brown and I am not sure if it is the same person or not.
Question. I think that may be the same person.
Answer. If it is, of course, yes, I do know her. I am just not——
Question. The secretary.
Answer. If it is, then, of course, I do know her and I met her on April 12th, 1996.
Question. And did it—if this is the same Dalia, or if the person that you are referring to as Dalia was there when you arrived at the Commerce Department in April of 1996, did she stay on at the Commerce Department while you were there?
Answer. Yes, she did.
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Question. All right. Did she——
Answer. If it is the same person, and I am not certain of that.
Question. I understand.
Answer. Okay.
Question. And did that individual that you are referring to as Dalia, did she stay on and work for you in any capacity in 1996?
Answer. She worked in the Office of the Secretary, as she did when I arrived, and continued the duties that she had under Secretary Brown.
Question. Okay. Do you have any knowledge of this Dalia that you are referring to—do you know if her name is Dalia Traynham?
Mr. ROBBINS. I think he answered that.
The WITNESS. I am sorry. I have no recollection.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay.
Answer. If it is, if it is the same person, then I have answered the question.
Question. Okay. Do you have any knowledge of how the woman that you know as Dalia maintained any of the records of Secretary Brown during the transition between Secretary Brown and your coming to the Commerce Department?
Answer. I have no knowledge of that.
Question. Okay. Have you—do you have any knowledge about Ms. Traynham shredding any documents from Mr. Brown's office?
Answer. I have no knowledge of that.
Question. Do you know who Melinda Yee is?
Answer. Yes, I know who Melinda Yee is from newspaper accounts.
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Question. Okay. Did you meet her at any time during the campaign?
Answer. Not to my—I don't recall ever meeting Melinda Yee during the campaign.
Question. Again, do you know if you met her at any time during your service in the administration?
Answer. I can't ever remember meeting Ms. Yee at any time. I don't recall any point where I met Melinda Yee.
Question. Okay. Do you have any knowledge about any organizations in California that were directed towards Asian Pacific fund-raising efforts in 1992?
Answer. I have no specific knowledge whatsoever of any particular organization, Asian organization, who was involved in the 1992 fund-raising effort.
Question. Were you aware of Ron Brown working with any particular Asian Pacific fund-raising groups in California in 1992?
Answer. No.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. I would like to make the memo of September 14th, 1992 to Dalia Traynham from Melinda Yee Deposition Exhibit No. 1.
[Kantor Deposition Exhibit No. MK–1 was marked for identification.]
[Note.—All exhibits referred to may be found at end of the deposition.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Did you have contact with Webb Hubbell during the 1992 campaign?
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Answer. Yes.
Question. Can you describe what that contact was?
Answer. In order to answer that question, I have to give you some background. I met Webb Hubbell over 10 years ago when we were co-counsel in two cases involving litigation in Indianapolis, Indiana and Little Rock, Arkansas. Mr. Hubbell had been retained by the law firm of Davis Polk, which is a New York law firm, to represent an insurance company, and I was also retained by that insurance company to be co-counsel with Mr. Hubbell after Davis Polk had brought him in as local counsel. We worked together on those cases and became very close friends as a result of that.
We kept in touch over the years after the cases had been completed and, of course, when my family moved to Little Rock we maintained that relationship. And so our conversations during 1992 could have ranged from social to political with everything in between.
Question. Okay. Was that the Sun-America work that you referred to?
Answer. It was Sun Life of Atlanta, Georgia at that point, much—it was then known as Sun-America.
Question. Was that Mr. Eli Broad?
Answer. He was the chief executive officer, but I really worked directly for Dan Kelly, who was the general counsel.
Question. Were there particular matters that you worked with Mr. Hubbell on during the 1992 campaign?
Answer. From time to time we would discuss certain issues in general or specifically, but I can't recall particular matters that we worked on together.
Question. Okay. When issues pertaining to Whitewater in 1992 arose in the campaign, did you work with Mr. Hubbell on any of those matters?
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Answer. I can't recall any specific conversation with Mr. Hubbell regarding that issue when it arose. However, I assume that others in the campaign were in contact with him, including Jim Lyons, who wrote the report during the campaign to try to clarify the matter.
Question. Okay. Do you know if you were in touch with Mr. Lyons on those matters?
Answer. Oh, yes, I was.
Question. All right. And what was your role in working with Mr. Lyons on that matter?
Mr. BALLEN. I am going to object to the relevancy of the question as to what Mr. Kantor did on Whitewater during the 1992 campaign. I did not realize we were going to have an investigation of Whitewater. That has already been investigated by Independent Counsel and a full 2 years of Senate hearings. If we are going to relive all of that, we are going to object unless you can explain how it relates to the resolution.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay. We are discussing Mr. Hubbell, which you have indicated that Mr. Hubbell probably had worked on these matters, and I also wanted to, in relation to that, discuss what your role was in that.
Mr. ROBBINS. Now, there is a pending objection, which I think I would like to echo. I assume at some point you are going to bring this around to fund-raising, which you told us at the outset, I made a note, that your jurisdiction is fund-raising improprieties. Are you planning to get to any of those this morning?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yes. I also referred to, in the opening, the Committee Report 105-139, which outlines a number of areas. We could go through those areas if you would like to discuss the various areas.
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Mr. ROBBINS. Can you point to the one that deals with this report on Whitewater done during the 1992 campaign? If you could just direct me to the part that talks about Whitewater.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Reading from House Report 105-139, matters pertaining to Webster Hubbell, it is in a paragraph in the report, which is all legal matters arising out of or in connection with work conducted by Mr. Hubbell. It also discusses all contacts with Mr. Hubbell by the President, First Lady, James Blair, Mickey Kantor, who is the deponent today, and a number of other witnesses. It is also all contact with Federal agency officials. It goes on also to discuss, at the bottom of page 3, all contacts with Democratic fund-raisers and/or donors and any attempts at obstructing any investigations relating to Webster Hubbell, the Rose Law Firm, the First Lady and/or the President.
I believe the Whitewater matter was in connection with the Rose Law Firm. Is that correct, Mr. Kantor?
Mr. BALLEN. There is a pending objection.
Mr. ROBBINS. The objection is that when you—if you want to talk about his relationship with Mr. Hubbell, he is prepared to answer the question. If you want to talk about what was reported on during the campaign about Whitewater, I haven't heard that itemized in that laundry list you just gave us. If you would like to get to Webb Hubbell relationships, you are free to do that and he is prepared to answer each and every question you have got as soon as you get to it.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Mr. Kantor has already indicated that Mr. Hubbell did work on Whitewater matters.
The WITNESS. No, I didn't.
Mr. ROBBINS. That's your testimony.
The WITNESS. If I could clarify, and if I misstated it, I apologize, I think I made it clear that I wasn't specifically aware, nor do I recall Mr. Hubbell working on so-called Whitewater during the 1992 campaign. I worked with Mr. Lyons, who was commissioned to do a report on that matter. I did not work with Mr. Hubbell on that matter.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. To your knowledge, did Mr. Lyons work with Mr. Hubbell on that matter?
Answer. You would have to ask Mr. Lyons.
Question. Okay. And you have no knowledge of Mr. Lyons working with Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. Mr. Lyons handled that himself, and I don't know whether he did or he didn't.
Question. Okay. Were you aware of any problems that Mr. Hubbell had with the Rose Law Firm in 1992?
Answer. In 1992? No.
Question. Okay. Were you aware of any issues related to billing disputes in 1992?
Answer. No.
Question. Were you aware of any, from your working with Mr. Lyons on the Whitewater reports, were you aware of any issues connected with Mr. Hubbell in relation to Whitewater matters?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you ever have any discussions with the President or the First Lady about any Whitewater matters related to Mr. Hubbell?
Mr. ROBBINS. Let me just—the phrase ''any Whitewater matters relating to Mr. Hubbell'' I find—I personally—maybe Mr. Kantor is better at deciphering words like that. I haven't the faintest idea what that sentence means. Whitewater matters relating to Mr. Hubbell? What do you mean by Whitewater matters?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
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Question. If the witness, in discussing any of these matters with the President or the First Lady, this is Whitewater matters, if any of these matters related to Mr. Hubbell in connection with Whitewater arose in those discussions?
Mr. ROBBINS. See, the problem is that Whitewater has become the all-purpose jargon in this city to describe absolutely anything that people want to use to criticize the incumbent administration or the people that work for it. And I don't know if you are using it in a colloquial sense, I don't know if you are using it in a narrow way to describe a particular land transaction in Arkansas, or somewhere in between. And maybe Mr. Kantor can read your mind but I can't. So if you want to tell him what you mean by that sentence, by what you mean by Whitewater matters, you can do that, but I won't let him answer a question that is phrased in that way.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. We are talking in the 1992 time frame about the real estate transactions and various issues that arose in that, and whether in the context of your conversations with the President or First Lady, if any matters related to Webster Hubbell in that context arose?
Answer. With regard to that real estate transaction, as you have phrased the question, I have never discussed that transaction with the President or the First Lady that in any way relates to Webb Hubbell.
Question. Okay. Did you—at the end of the campaign, did you then work on the transition?
Answer. I was a member of the transition board of directors.
Question. Okay. What was your role in that position?
Answer. Well, as a member of the board, we discussed generally the organization and shape of the new administration. However, I had a specific assignment in organizing and directing the so-called economic conference which was held in Little Rock in early December 1992.
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Question. Okay. And did there come a time when you were appointed to be—to head up the USTR office?
Answer. Yes. The President announced his choice of me for that position on December 24, 1992.
Question. And had the President himself asked you to take that position?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Were you involved in considering other people for positions in the administration?
Answer. The transaction board generally discussed a whole host of names of people who would be qualified to serve in high positions of the administration. I can't recall any specific discussions about positions and people who would be best suited to serve in those positions.
Question. Were you involved in any vetting of any nominees for any positions?
Answer. No.
Question. During the 1992 campaign, how often did you see Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. Could you clarify that question, because it—I don't know what the implication is. Tell me—because we saw Mr. Hubbell and his family quite often on a social basis. If you are asking professionally or politically, that's a different question. So if you could clarify it, it would help me.
Question. I believe you have testified that you moved to Little Rock in the summer of 1992.
Answer. Yes.
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Question. At that time, did you see Mr. Hubbell then frequently socially?
Answer. Oh, yes, and his family.
Question. All right. Did you also work with him on a day-to-day basis?
Answer. No.
Question. All right. How often did you work with him on campaign matters?
Answer. Mr. Hubbell did not work on the campaign. He was not part of it. We would talk from time to time generally about how the campaign was going, but he was not a part of the campaign in terms of working on it on a day-to-day basis.
Question. When you moved to Washington to be part of the administration, did you also keep in touch with Mr. Hubbell at that time socially also?
Answer. Yes. Just to be—to totally round this out, my family moved back to Los Angeles after the President was elected on November 5th. I lived with Mr. Hubbell and his family for 6 weeks during the transition process before I came to Washington to prepare myself for my confirmation hearings and to take over the job as United States Trade Representative.
Question. During that time when you were with Mr. Hubbell or anytime after that, did you learn that he had documents that he had maintained from the campaign regarding Whitewater?
Answer. Not specifically, and I am not sure what time frame you are talking about.
Question. Maybe initially the time frame——
Answer. I am sorry. You will have to be more specific. I apologize.
Question. The time frame when you lived with Mr. Hubbell, were you aware of him maintaining documents relating to Whitewater that had been gathered during the campaign?
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Answer. I don't recall any specific conversations, except I generally knew that campaign documents maintained by certain people in the campaign had been gathered together and had been stored under Mr. Hubbell's jurisdiction.
Question. Okay. How did you learn about that?
Mr. ROBBINS. Just one thing. Your question, as I heard it, had to do with Whitewater documents. Now, are you using Whitewater, again, to refer to a land transaction in Arkansas?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I am referring to documents that were gathered during the campaign, whatever——
Answer. I understood you meant just generally documents, because I don't know what the—let's just—I can answer it.
Mr. ROBBINS. Okay. Go ahead.
The WITNESS. Generally, I was generally aware that Mr. Hubbell had certain documents from the campaign under his jurisdiction. I had no idea what those documents were and never saw them.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay. Do you know if some of them were legal documents?
Answer. I have no idea what they were.
Question. And how did you learn that he had gathered some type of documents from the campaign?
Mr. BALLEN. I don't believe that was his testimony. His testimony was that documents—not that Mr. Hubbell had gathered the documents.
The WITNESS. No.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. You were aware that he had documents in his possession from the campaign, is that correct?
Answer. Yes, and I had no idea what those documents were. I never inquired. I never saw the documents. I don't know to this day what they were.
Question. I understand. How did you learn that he had those documents?
Answer. I can only—I shouldn't assume but I am going to for this purpose. I would only assume that he must have told me.
Question. All right. But do you recall him telling you anything?
Answer. I don't recall that. I don't recall how I learned it.
Question. Okay.
Mr. ROBBINS. I also don't want the record to have any suggestion that these documents are Whitewater within the meaning of the prior question simply because that word was used somewhere, embedded in one of the chain of questions that led to the last answer.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I think the witness' testimony is clear that he didn't know what the particular documents were.
Mr. BALLEN. I am also going to object, again, for the record to these kind of questions, this line of questioning.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Did there come a time when you learned that those documents—that documents that had been maintained during the campaign had been transferred to Washington in 1993 at any time?
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Answer. I don't recall specifically. However, I think I recall newspaper articles of some kind at some point saying that they had been brought here by Mr. Hubbell, but that's all I understand.
Question. Okay. Did you have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell maintaining documents in his basement that were generally campaign-related?
Answer. I can't recall. Frankly, there is, after all of these years, confusion as to what you have read in the newspaper and what someone may or may not have told you. I became aware at some point that the—I assume but I don't know the documents that you are talking about were maintained by Mr. Hubbell. I don't know—where they were physically, I have no idea.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of how you learned about those?
Answer. I can't—I have—I can't recall.
Question. Did there come a time when you learned that Mr. Hubbell was having legal problems with the Rose Law Firm?
Answer. Yes.
Question. How did you learn that?
Answer. From Mr. Hubbell and from the newspapers.
Question. All right. And what did Mr. Hubbell tell you?
Mr. ROBBINS. Tell him when? Do you have a date in mind?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I am asking, when did you learn of these matters—when did Mr. Hubbell tell you of the problems?
Mr. ROBBINS. When did he first tell him, or tenth time tell him or hundredth time tell him? Which time do you want?
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Ms. COMSTOCK. All of them.
Mr. ROBBINS. All of them? Do you really want all of them in the answer to one question, or would you like to start with the first—the earliest conversations?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. We can start with the first.
Answer. I can't recall a specific date. I do recall it was the spring of 1994, probably early March.
Question. And what did Mr. Hubbell tell you in that initial conversation?
Answer. He told me that his law firm had raised the issue of a case he had handled for his father-in-law, regarding the payment of an expert witness, and that his law firm was upset that the expert witness fees had not been paid by his father-in-law and were attempting to—or were claiming that Webb had—Webb Hubbell had an obligation to pay those fees, and he also indicated that there were certain other expenses or charges related to the law firm that were not properly documented.
Question. Okay. And what did he tell you about those expenses?
Answer. Only that if he could have access to his files or his—or the documentation, there would be no problem.
Question. Okay. Do you know if he, in fact, had access to these documents?
Answer. I have no idea.
Question. What did he tell you he was going to do about those problems?
Answer. I don't specifically recall, except that he seemed fully confident at that point that he could resolve these matters with his law firm.
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Question. Okay. And do you recall what you said to him?
Answer. Not specifically, except that I, as a friend, attempted to convince him that the quicker he could resolve the matter the better it would be for him.
Question. Did he indicate with whom he had been speaking at the firm about these matters?
Answer. He may have, but I don't remember. I wouldn't remember the name.
Question. All right. Did you ever have any discussions with anybody at the Rose Law Firm?
Answer. No.
Question. In this initial conversation, do you recall if you had that in person or on the phone?
Answer. I can't recall. And I can't even recall whether I read it first in a newspaper article or I was told first by Mr. Hubbell. I just can't recall at this point.
Question. All right.
Mr. ROBBINS. By the way, Ms. Comstock, in an earlier question, a few questions ago, you asked did you ever have conversations with anyone at the Rose Law Firm. I assume that you meant by that any conversations with anyone at the Rose Law Firm concerning the subject of a dispute between Hubbell and the Rose Law Firm? Or were you saying any conversations any time with anyone?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I was referring in the context of the questions about——
Answer. I understood it was in the context—I probably should say, in the context of what I think is March 1994.
Question. Uh-huh.
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Answer. Obviously not 10 years or 7 or 8 years before when we handled litigation together. Obviously that would be a different situation.
Question. Okay. I understand that.
I am showing the witness a Wednesday, March 2nd, 1994, Washington Post article, which is entitled, quote, law firm probing Hubbell; billing irregularities alleged; Clinton aide denies.
Does this refresh your recollection as to whether or not you read news articles before or after you spoke with Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. It doesn't clarify in my mind whether I learned from Mr. Hubbell first or read this article first, or any other article for that matter.
Question. Okay. Directing your attention to paragraph 2 of the article, it says, quote, the internal investigation began in the summer of 1992, and the firm is considering notifying the Resolution Trust Corporation and several other major clients of billing irregularities, according to a source familiar with the matter. The firm also has been weighing whether to inform the State Bar Association.
Do you recall if you had any discussions with Mr. Hubbell about any matters related to the RTC in this initial conversation?
Answer. I can't recall any specific conversation about the RTC.
Question. We haven't gone on to some of the other subsequent discussions you had, but do you generally have a recollection of discussing in subsequent—in initial or subsequent conversations with Mr. Hubbell any matters related to the RTC?
Answer. I don't recall specific discussions about the RTC. However, to be—to be as clear as possible, if there was any discussion, it would have been only in the context of how Mr. Hubbell might justify his expenses which were under question.
Question. Okay. Aside from talking with Mr. Hubbell or news accounts, did you have any other knowledge about anything relating to these billing irregularities?
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Answer. No.
Question. Did you ever talk with Jim Blair about any of these matters in or around March of 1994?
Answer. I had one conversation with Jim Blair, that I can recall, in 19—in March 1994, but that involved a general conversation which lasted only a few minutes, concerning or regarding his conversation over the dispute between the Rose Law Firm and Mr. Hubbell.
Question. And could you describe what that discussion was about?
Answer. Well, I—I will describe what I can recall. It was a short conversation. Mr. Blair indicated to me that he thought the dispute between the Rose Law Firm and Mr. Hubbell was more serious than he had previously believed.
Question. Is that all you recall about the conversation?
Answer. That's all I recall.
Question. Did he say anything to you about what he thought Mr. Hubbell should do?
Answer. Not that I recall.
Question. All right. Do you recall any other conversations that you had with Mr. Hubbell at or around March of 1994 about the billing irregularities, or about—in general? I mean, I am referring to the matters addressed in the March 2nd article and general matters relating to that in March of 1994.
Answer. I don't recall any more specific conversations than I have already described during that period of time.
Question. Do you know if you had any discussions with anybody at the White House about the billing irregularities?
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Answer. I can't recall any conversation with anyone at the White House about billing irregularities.
Question. Or do you have any recollection of any discussions with anyone at the White House about Mr. Hubbell at or around March of 1994?
Answer. Well, Mr. Hubbell just generally?
Question. Yes.
Answer. Yes.
Question. And what were those discussions regarding?
Answer. Well, the only—the one conversation I can recall, and I can't recall the date, I just know generally it was in this time period, is I had one conversation with Mr. McLarty, who was then chief of staff, who called to ask about how Webb was—Mr. Hubbell was doing, how difficult it was on him emotionally, and asked me my—frankly, my assessment as to what he might do.
Question. What did you tell Mr. McLarty?
Answer. As I recall, I told him that it was a difficult situation for Mr. Hubbell and that it was up to him as to what decision he was going to make, whether or not he remained at the Department of Justice.
Question. When you say it was up to him, you mean him, Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. Up to Mr. Hubbell.
Question. And what did Mr. McLarty say to you?
Answer. The conversation ended at that point.
Question. Okay. Do you recall if this was before or after Mr. Hubbell resigned?
Answer. From what I recall, it probably occurred before he resigned, but I really—I can't recall, but the nature of the conversation that I recall was such, it probably was before he resigned. But I can't—I really can't recall at this point.
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Question. All right.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I would like to make this Washington Post article of March 2nd, Deposition Exhibit No. 2.
[Kantor Deposition Exhibit No. MK–2 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I believe you previously indicated you didn't know if you had—in this initial conversation if you had talked to Mr. Hubbell in person or on the phone. Is that correct?
Answer. I just don't recall.
Question. Okay. I am showing the witness GRO 1169, which is——
Answer. I am sorry. I apologize. I did not hear you.
Question. This is a phone call record of March 2nd, 1994 that has been produced to the committee by Mr. Hubbell. It is marked GRO 1169.
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me. Produced to the committee by Mr. Hubbell?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yes. These were produced by Mr. Hubbell in 1995, I believe. They have also been produced this year by the Justice Department.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Directing your attention to the third entry on the phone call logs——
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. It says Mickey Kantor, March 2nd, 8:15.
Answer. I am sorry. Is it 8:15 or 3:15? I can't tell.
Question. I think it is 8:15 because the others on top look like 8s. It looks like it is in sequential order.
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Answer. Excuse me. Okay.
Question. But, again, it is—well, if it is a 3, it looks fairly different on the page. Does this refresh your recollection as to whether or not you ever called Mr. Hubbell on the morning that this March 2nd article appeared in the Post?
Answer. Well, if this record is accurate, it appears that I or my secretary did place a call, but it is not clear that we talked. All it says is that Mickey Kantor telephoned and said to please call. So I don't draw any conclusion from this.
Question. Okay. And the phone number on the message, [redacted], is that your work phone number?
Answer. It isn't now. It was.
Question. In 1994, that was your work phone number?
Answer. Yes.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I will make that Deposition Exhibit No. 3.
[Kantor Deposition Exhibit No. MK–3 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. This is GRO 1172, another March 2nd, 1994 phone log. The second entry here reflects a telephone call to Mr. Hubbell at 2:50 from Mr. Kantor. Again the message reads, telephoned, please call. Does this refresh your recollection as to whether or not you may have spoken to Mr. Hubbell about the news article?
Answer. As I said, I don't recall that I spoke to him on that date or not.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. I will make that Deposition Exhibit No. 4.
[Kantor Deposition Exhibit No. MK–4 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. In your conversations with Mr. Hubbell, aside from the initial conversation that you recalled, do you recall other conversations that you had with him leading up to his resignation of March 14th, 1994?
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Mr. ROBBINS. I am sorry. Could I have the question read back, please?
[The reporter read back as requested.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I am talking about your initial conversation about the billing irregularities. And if you could walk us through any other conversations you had with him leading up to his resignation.
Answer. If I could make it clear, and I am sorry if I didn't, I don't recall when the initial conversation took place. I had a number of conversations with Mr. Hubbell during that period of time leading up to his resignation. I obviously can't specifically recall which conversation was the first and which one first raised the issue of billing irregularities. However—because I don't specifically recall that. However, I did have a number of conversations with him during that period of time.
Question. Okay. And in those conversations, did he tell you anybody else that he had talked to about these matters?
Answer. The only person I can specifically recall he referred to was John Nields, who I didn't know at that point. And, of course, his wife, Suzy Hubbell.
Question. Did he indicate whether he talked to the President about these matters?
Answer. No.
Question. No, he didn't indicate?
Answer. He didn't indicate, and there was no indication whatsoever he talked to the President about these matters, then or ever.
Question. And did he ever indicate if he talked with the First Lady about these matters?
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Answer. He didn't indicate he had talked to the First Lady about these matters, then or ever.
Question. And do you know if he talked to Vernon Jordan about these matters prior to his resignation?
Answer. I have no recollection that he said he had talked to Vernon Jordan about these matters.
Question. Do you know if he talked to Michael Cardozo about these matters prior to his resignation?
Answer. Michael Cardozo was involved in a conversation with me with Mr. Hubbell, I believe in Mr. Hubbell's living room for a few minutes during the weekend prior to his resignation. I can't recall specifically whether or not we talked about billing irregularities or not, or merely talked generally about the—what appropriate action he should take.
Question. Do you recall what was discussed with Mr. Cardozo and Mr. Hubbell on that day, at the time before the resignation?
Answer. I don't have a specific recollection. However, I believe we talked generally about whether or not Mr. Hubbell should resign.
Question. Do you recall what you said about that?
Answer. Generally, yes.
Question. What did he tell Mr. Hubbell?
Mr. BALLEN. Was it at that time, that particular conversation with Mr. Cardozo, or in general?
The WITNESS. During that weekend and at that conversation, I think it was the same. My advice was the same throughout the weekend. I was concerned about Mr. Hubbell as a friend. I thought it would be difficult for him, given the allegations of ethical improprieties and the concerns of the law firm for him to clarify this matter while remaining at the Justice Department.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. What was Mr. Hubbell's response?
Answer. During the weekend he came to a point where he agreed with what I said, but others said as well.
Question. Do you know who the others were?
Answer. Mr. Cardozo was one. I don't know who the others were.
Question. Do you recall what Mr. Cardozo said?
Answer. Not specifically.
Question. Do you know if Jim Blair had talked to Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. I have no recollection or any idea whether Jim Blair talked to Mr. Hubbell or not.
Question. Do you recall if you talked to Mr. Blair about Mr. Hubbell resigning?
Answer. I think I described my conversation with Mr. Blair.
Question. Did you discuss—I am sorry, did you discuss with him Mr. Hubbell resigning?
Answer. All I can recall is Mr. Blair telling me he thought the situation involving the law firm, the Rose law firm, and Mr. Hubbell was more serious than previously believed.
Question. Did he tell you whether he thought Mr. Hubbell should resign?
Answer. As I said, that is all I remember about the conversation.
Question. I would like to also make another phone record, a phone call, Mr. Kantor to Mr. Hubbell, on March 3rd, 1994, Deposition Exhibit No. 5.
It is a 9:55 call on March 3.
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[Kantor Deposition Exhibit No. MK–5 was marked for identification.]
Mr. ROBBINS. I would like the record to reflect that this set of phone records, like the previous two that have been marked as exhibits, in fact do not reflect the year that these phone calls took place; and so all we have at this point is the assumption built into the series of questions that have been put to the witness.
To my reading, all you can tell from these documents is the month and the day, but not the year. So to the extent that any prior question is premised on the assumption that it took place in 1994, I think the record should reflect that you cannot tell that from the face of the document, as far as I can see.
Ms. COMSTOCK. That is correct. It is not on the document itself. It has been represented to us by Mr. Hubbell and by the Justice Department as phone records from 1994.
Mr. ROBBINS. We are not—the witness and counsel are not disputing the year.
Ms. COMSTOCK. You are correcting what is on the——
Mr. ROBBINS. It is not obvious from the face of the document.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I believe you had said over the weekend that Mr. Hubbell came to the realization that he should resign; is that correct?
Answer. I think my words were that he made a decision that he should resign.
Question. Could you describe that process, if there was an evolution of his thinking on that?
Answer. I can only generally describe it. I would not describe it as a process.
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Mr. Hubbell had a conversation, which I described, with me. I was there for a brief period of conversation with Mr. Cardozo. I don't know who else Mr. Hubbell talked to among his friends, if anyone. And I—he came to the conclusion at some point during the weekend that he should resign.
Question. What did he is say to you about that?
Answer. I can't specifically recall. He just said he thought it would be in the best interest of his family and the situation for him to resign.
Question. Did you have an understanding that he was going to do that imminently?
Answer. I am sure at some point he must have described for me the timing of when he would announce that decision.
Question. Did you assist him in any way in——
Answer. Not specifically. I can't recall what I may have said. I may have generally given him advice as to what may be the most appropriate way in which to do it, but it would only be general advice.
Question. Do you recall what that was?
Answer. No. No, I do not.
Question. Did you ever discuss with Mr. McLarty what Mr. Hubbell would do in terms of jobs if he left the Justice Department?
Answer. I have no recollection of any discussion with Mr. McLarty about Webb Hubbell and his employment after leaving the Justice Department.
Question. To put it into the time frame, Mr. Hubbell resigned on a Monday, which was March 14, and the weekend preceding that was March 13, Sunday, and March 12.
Were you aware of any meetings over the weekend at the White House in which Mr. Hubbell's situation was discussed?
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Answer. No.
Question. Did you participate any meetings at the White House over that weekend?
Answer. No.
Question. I am showing the witness a document which is marked EOP 20328, which has been identified to the committee as notes of Mack McLarty's. They are undated. They have indicated that they are from at or around the time of March 1994.
Mr. BALLEN. For the record, I do not—maybe it is because we haven't been informed of it by the White House—we have never received an indication of when these notes were prepared.
Ms. COMSTOCK. The White House Counsel has indicated to us that these were notes of Mr. Mack McLarty. That was oral. Although there is not a date on them so that is their best estimate also. So I think the record reflects that these notes are undated handwritten notes of Mr. McLarty.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. The notes refer to Ron Perelman at the top, Truman Arnold; B, initial B, Rapoport, others. And then the next is consulting arrangements and then the document reads, law firms reluctant to touch him, and then—and then it reads Mickey to help, Vernon, and then there is sort of checks, kind of referring also to help, it appears, to above—but again this is my interpretation. And then the bottom is difficult to read; something about agreement, and then Christine.
Does this refresh your recollection as to whether you had any discussion was Mr. McLarty about helping Mr. Hubbell on work or any consulting arrangements?
Answer. I have obviously never seen this piece—I have no knowledge of these notes, whoever's notes they are.
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Question. They have been represented by Mr. McLarty's attorney, to us and the White House orally, as McLarty's notes. I apologize that we do not have a production log from the White House, and we have asked for one since March 4, 1994, but they have not provided us with any written explanation for these notes. We have had to rely on oral ones despite our repeated requests.
I do apologize to the witness, but this is something the White House has not provided us in written form.
Mr. ROBBINS. Let me ask you, you have reported that it has been represented to you that these are notes of Mr. McLarty. Has it also been represented to you with whom he was talking when he made these notes or with whom—what conversation these notes purport to memorialize?
Ms. COMSTOCK. The White House counsel has referenced these as notes pertaining to Mr. Hubbell.
Mr. ROBBINS. My question, you put a question to this witness—you asked him, does this refresh your recollection that you said something to Mr. McLarty that could have given rise to these notes. I am sure it was not your intention, but that kind of a question contains as a premise that it might actually have been Mr. Kantor who was speaking to Mr. McLarty and thus gave rise to these memos, to these notes.
I am fairly certain that you know that it was not Mr. Kantor who spoke to Mr. McLarty in a way that was memorialized here, because in the very same representation in which you were apparently told that these were Mr. McLarty's notes, I rather suspect that you were told who Mr. McLarty was talking to that gave rise to these notes; and my question is, as you sit here today, do you know from the same representation that you are referring to who it was McLarty was talking to that gave rise to these notes?
Ms. COMSTOCK. There has been some reference in the newspapers. We have gotten very general representations from the White House about these notes. We have not talked to Mr. McLarty at this time about these notes.
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I am just asking the witness very generally if he has any knowledge as to ever discussing with Mr. McLarty anything about helping Mr. Hubbell.
Mr. ROBBINS. I thought your question was, does it refresh your recollection? Usually when lawyers ask questions like that, they mean to suggest that these are notes that could conceivably have been notes of a conversation between this witness.
Ms. COMSTOCK. That is not what I said in my question.
Mr. ROBBINS. That is not what you said. That is the premise of it. I suspect that you know pretty well who was on the other end of this telephone conversation.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I don't know that this was a telephone conversation. These notes were created, and we have not been given any representations as to how these notes were created. There have been some news reports about Mr. McLarty having conversations with the First Lady about these, but I have no idea even if these are those notes.
The WITNESS. Let me——
Ms. COMSTOCK. We will find out if anyone has any recollection about anything. These are notes which indicate, Mickey to help. I am just trying to see if you know anything about ever talking to Mr. McLarty about helping Mr. Hubbell in any kind of consulting arrangements or employment arrangements.
The WITNESS. Let me try to answer the question without jousting anymore.
One, I know nothing about these notes.
Number two, I don't know how these notes were generated.
Number three, I don't even know who ''Mickey'' refers to.
Number four, I never had any discussion with Mr. McLarty during that period or subsequently about Mr. Hubbell's pose government employment. However, I did have a conversation with Mr. McLarty during the weekend in question or on the Monday in question or during that next week regarding Mr. Hubbell's general emotional condition and the condition of his family.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you know if in that conversation you ever had any—that you ever referenced to how you—that you were going to help Mr. Hubbell in any way?
Answer. I have answered that question. I did not have any discussion with Mr. McLarty, to my recollection, about anything I was ever going to do about helping Mr. Hubbell or his family in any way.
Question. Is there another Mickey that you know of that is somebody—an associate of Mr. McLarty's?
Answer. I have no idea. I can't answer that.
Question. I am asking if you have any knowledge?
Answer. You might ask Mr. McLarty. I don't know.
Question. I am asking if you have any knowledge of somebody named Mickey that Mr. McLarty——
Answer. Ms. Comstock, I am trying to be helpful to you. I know nothing about these notes. That is number one.
Number two, I think I talked to Mr. McLarty either over the weekend or on that Monday or sometime during that week. He generally inquired, and I discussed with him Mr. Hubbell's situation and the situation regarding his family.
We were all friends. I cared deeply about his family and his children, Walter and Caroline and Rebecca and Kelly, as well as his wife, Susan. But I have no idea what this means in these notes.
Question. Did you ever hear Mr. McLarty say anything to the effect of law firms were reluctant to hire Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. No.
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Question. Did you ever hear anyone say anything to that effect——
Answer. I can't recall.
Question. At or around March of 1994?
Answer. I can't recall any conversation like that.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell seeking employment with law firms in the area at or around March of 1994 or in the months——
Answer. I have no specific recollection of that.
Question. Did you ever discuss with Mr. Hubbell where he might look for work or what law firms he might approach?
Answer. Only in the most general sense that I was concerned about Mr. Hubbell, about his family, given the nature of the allegations being made by the Rose Firm. It was generally clear to his friends that it would be difficult for him to find employment until the situation was clarified. So we had general conversations, but I can't remember any specific conversation.
Question. Do you know anything about Truman Arnold assisting Mr. Hubbell in any way for employment?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge about Ron Perelman assisting Mr. Hubbell in getting employment?
Answer. No.
Question. Or consulting arrangements?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge about Harold Ickes assisting Mr. Hubbell in getting any employment or consulting contract?
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Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge about Bernard Rapoport assisting Mr. Hubbell in any way in getting employment or consulting arrangements?
Answer. In getting employment or consulting arrangements, no.
Question. Did you at any time ever talk about Mr. Rapoport in the 1994 time frame about any work he was doing with Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. No. Any work he was doing with Mr. Hubbell? No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Vernon Jordan assisting Mr. Hubbell in getting any work or consulting arrangements?
Answer. I can't recall any specific conversation with Mr. Jordan about any of that.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I would like to mark this Deposition Exhibit Number 6, notes of Mr. McLarty's.
[Kantor Deposition Exhibit No. MK–6 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. On March 14, when Mr. Hubbell resigned, do you recall if you talked with him on that day when he resigned?
Answer. I can't recall specifically any conversations, but it would have been quite unusual had I not talked to him that day.
Question. Do you recall if you got together at or around that time?
Answer. I can't recall that day. It is a very vague in my memory. I was 58 yesterday, so I do not remember things very well. The fact is, I am sure that it would have been quite unusual had I not gotten together with him at some point during that day.
Question. Do you recall if you went over to his office?
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Answer. I can't recall. Well, I do not recall ever going to the Justice Department or to his office. I just can't recall specifically, but I am just trying to be helpful. I am sure at some point during the day we got together.
Question. Again, do you recall if he indicated if he talked to anybody at the White House about this on that day?
Answer. I do not recall Mr. Hubbell ever telling me he talked to anyone at the White House about this situation at all.
Question. To your knowledge, to this day, do you know if Mr. Hubbell ever had any conversations with the President or First Lady about his resignation?
Answer. Which one? I am sorry.
Question. To your knowledge, do you know if the President ever had any conversation was Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. About?
Question. About Mr. Hubbell's resignation?
Answer. I have no personal knowledge of that, if there were any conversations at all.
Question. Have you heard from anybody else about such conversations?
Answer. No.
Question. And the same with the First Lady?
Answer. I would give the same answer with regard to the First Lady.
Question. Did you ever talk with David Kendall about any matters related to Mr. Hubbell's resignation?
Answer. Not that I recall.
Question. Were you aware of any joint defense agreements proposed regarding Mr. Hubbell's legal problems?
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Mr. ROBBINS. Any joint defense agreements proposed regarding——
Ms. COMSTOCK. Mr. Hubbell's legal problems.
Mr. BALLEN. Is there a time frame to that question?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. At any time, if you ever discussed with Mr. Hubbell joint defense agreements relating to his legal problems?
Answer. I do not understand the question. I am sorry.
Mr. ROBBINS. You will have to give me a minute.
Ordinarily, I would make a privilege objection to a question regarding the existence of joint defense agreements. That would obviously call for privileged information, but we may be able to cut through this.
The WITNESS. No.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Did you have any knowledge about John Phillips assisting Mr. Hubbell with any type of work?
Answer. At what point?
Question. In or around the spring of 1994.
Answer. No.
Question. At any time during 1994 were you aware of him assisting Mr. Hubbell with any work?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you subsequently learned of such assistance?
Answer. Subsequently, yes.
Question. When did you learn of that?
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Answer. At some point—it could have been as late as 1996. I am sorry, I will have to—I apologize. I do not recall when, but it was much later than 1994. It could have been as late as in 1996 at some point.
There was an article, I believe, in the Los Angeles Times—it could have been another newspaper—that Mr. Phillips discussed with me regarding his help with regard to some arrangement Mr. Hubbell had with a foundation in Los Angeles. But up until that point—and I am sorry, I can't remember this date, but it could be as late as in 1996 sometime. In fact—well, I can't remember, I am sorry. I just can't remember.
Yes, I did discuss it at that point with Mr. Phillips.
Question. What did you discuss with Mr. Phillips?
Answer. He just described the situation to me.
Question. How did he describe it?
Answer. Well, much like it was described in the newspaper, that Mr. Hubbell had been retained or contracted with a foundation in Los Angeles to write an article or a tract regarding government service, and he was to be paid $40,000; and that Webb did not—Mr. Hubbell did not perform on the contract, and John was embarrassed—Mr. Phillips was embarrassed that he had introduced Mr. Hubbell to this foundation and had advocated their retaining Mr. Hubbell for this purpose.
And so he told me that he repaid the foundation the $40,000, received a note from Mr. Hubbell or from Mrs. Hubbell—I am not sure from whom, frankly—for that amount and, in fact, told me he had already been paid some amount to begin to cover what was owed.
Question. Did he tell you that he was upset about this matter?
Answer. Yes. He was very angry at Mr. Hubbell for not performing and embarrassing him.
Question. John Phillips is a friend of yours?
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Answer. He is a very good friend of mine.
Question. How long have you known him?
Answer. Twenty-four years.
Question. Were you aware of Mr. Cardozo providing office space to Mr. Hubbell in 1994?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Do you recall when you learned of that?
Answer. At some point, I do not specifically recall, I realized that Mr. Hubbell was sitting in the offices of Mr. Cardozo, because I would call him from time to time to check in on him.
Question. You would call Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. Yes, sure.
Question. What was your understanding of that office arrangement?
Answer. I had no specific understanding.
Question. Did you know if he was paying rent or not?
Answer. I had no idea.
Question. Do you know in 1994—in 1994, did you know about Mr. Hubbell working for the Lippo Group or any affiliate of the Lippo Group?
Answer. No.
Question. Did there come a time when you learned that he worked for the Lippo Group or had been paid by the Lippo Group?
Answer. I can specifically remember a New York Times article. I believe this year, 1997, with regard to that. That was the first time that I was aware that he was paid by anyone connected with the Lippo Group.
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Question. Do you recall Mr. Hubbell testifying at or around February of 1996 about the matter, or being asked about the matter in testimony?
Answer. I have a general recollection that at some point—I don't know the date—Mr. Hubbell was asked about it, and as I recall and I do not even know, it was a hearing on the Hill. I do not remember which committee.
As I recall his answer, it was that he said that how he provided for his family was not their business, as I recall the answer. But I may be wrong about that. That is what I recall.
Question. Do you recall if you have ever had any discussions with Mr. Hubbell generally about that testimony, being asked about how he made money during 1994?
Answer. No. I do not have any specific recollection about discussing with Mr. Hubbell postgovernment employment until the time he went to jail. I was unaware of what his employment was at that point.
Question. What was your understanding of how he was supporting his family at that time after he left the Justice Department?
Answer. I had a general understanding, and I can't specifically recall conversations, that he was practicing law on his own and representing clients.
Question. Did you have any knowledge of who those clients were?
Answer. Not specifically.
Question. Did you have any general knowledge of any areas that he was working on?
Answer. I can't recall any specific conversations about the areas that he was working on.
Question. Do you have any general recollection of him talking to you about—that he was doing work for a client?
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Answer. Only in the most general terms.
Question. What do you mean by that?
Answer. Well, that he had some clients and he was working for them; and but that it was very difficult, difficult to make ends meet financially.
Question. He indicated to you that it was difficult for him to make ends meet financially during the 1994 time frame?
Answer. Yes. And 1995, if there is another question later, I will just go ahead and answer it now, 1995 as well.
Question. Were you aware of Michael Berman assisting him to get any work during that time frame?
Answer. I have no recollection of knowing that, to this day, that Michael Berman aided Mr. Hubbell in gaining any employment during the period in question.
Question. Are you a friend of Mr. Berman's?
Answer. Yes.
Question. How long have you known him?
Answer. Twenty-eight years.
Question. Could you generally describe during the time frame of 1994 what your contact with Mr. Hubbell was?
Mr. ROBBINS. Any time in 1994?
Ms. COMSTOCK. After he left the Justice Department. Why do not we place it between March 1994 and maybe the time of his guilty plea in December 1994.
The WITNESS. Our families frequently got together. He was social. My wife and I were trying to be supportive of Webb, Mr. Hubbell, and his wife and his children. We would frequently have dinner together or to have barbecues outside, just to be as supportive as possible.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recall ever meeting him at the White House during this time?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know if he was at the White House frequently during this time?
Answer. I have no recollection that he ever told me he was at the White House during this period of time.
Question. Do you recall, at this time, did you assist Mr. Hubbell's son with finding work?
Answer. During which time?
Question. This March 1994 to December 1994 time frame.
Answer. First of all, I assume you are referring to Walter Hubbell.
Question. Yes.
Answer. Second, in 1993, Walter Hubbell worked as an unpaid intern for the United States Trade Representative's office and did a marvelous job. In 1994, when he graduated from the University of the South, his resume—he applied for a job at USTR; and it was reviewed by the staff and he was hired as a paid intern along with a few other young people.
As you know, USTR is a very small staff. We rely on interns. Mr. Hubbell had done a terrific job as an unpaid intern the year before, and the staff recommended to me that we hire him and, of course, I acquiesced to that.
In addition to that, I believe I recall one phone call I made to Mr. Jim Johnson, who is the chief executive officer of the Federal National Mortgage Association, to ask him to consider Walter Hubbell for a full-time position at Fannie Mae.
Question. Did you ever talk to Webster Hubbell about his son and jobs, assisting his son?
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Answer. I talked to Mr. Hubbell about his son, because I constantly told him how proud he should be of his son and how well he was doing.
Question. I am showing the witness a WAVES record we received from the White House.
Answer. What is a WAVES record?
Question. It is the access to the White House Secret Service records that they keep regarding visitors summaries, ins and outs of people, who they are visiting with at the White House.
This document is marked EOP 20370. I am sorry for the poor copy here; it is difficult to read. There is an entry on here, and I will translate. The Visitor is on your left. There is a column that indicates Visitor. Here it indicates Mr. Hubbell on a number of occasions, and then Visitee is the person who usually either they are going to see or who waves them in.
For the record, sometimes it is the secretary, sometimes it is the actual person who is there to meet with them; and then the time and date is over to the right. It indicates on this Visitee is Kantor and then Requester, Frankenber, F-r-a-n-k-e-n-b-e-r.
Answer. It is Frankenberg with a G.
Question. Sorry. And that is who? That is someone you know?
Answer. That is referring, I assume, without knowledge, to Debbie Frankenberg, my secretary.
Question. This indicates a date of July 19, 1994. Do you recall if you had a visit with Mr. Hubbell in your office at or around July 1994?
Answer. I do not recall any visit. It appears from what you have given me that it was Debbie Frankenberg who requested——
Question. That is correct.
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Answer. So, therefore—I do not have any recollection whatsoever of this. I can't refer to it. All I can look at is the document that shows that Debbie Frankenberg requested something.
Question. We are just showing the witness this. These records are——
Answer. I have no recollection of this whatsoever.
Mr. ROBBINS. Just so the record is clear, what date do you believe this event took place?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. This is the date here, 7/19/94.
Answer. Could I ask a question?
I have never seen these records before. Does it indicate whether the visitor—it is just interesting—ever came in or did not come in.
Question. On these sometimes, if they do not have—you don't know, they may make an appointment and then not come.
Answer. Let me answer your question. I have no recollection of this whatsoever.
Question. I believe it is unclear on these sometimes; you don't know if someone has come or gone. That is correct. It just looks like an appointment was made for some reason. It could have been by your secretary or you. Okay.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Let us make that Deposition Exhibit Number 7.
[Kantor Deposition Exhibit No. MK–7 was marked for identification.]
Question. Are you aware of Mr. Hubbell being hired by the L.A. airport?
Answer. Am I aware now, today?
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Question. Yes.
Answer. Yes, from newspaper articles.
Question. Did you first learn about it from newspaper articles?
Answer. I am virtually certain that I first learned about that through newspaper articles, although—that is not correct. No.
No, I think that sometime in 1995, Mr. Hubbell told me—early 1995; I can't recall the date—that he had performed work for the L.A. airport.
Question. Do you recall what he told you about that?
Answer. Oh, yes. He was concerned because he had not been paid.
Question. Why did he tell you about that?
Answer. He just was concerned about it. He said that they owed him quite a bit of money.
Question. Did he tell you how much money they owed him?
Answer. I recall he said $50,000.
Question. Did he tell you what he had done for that work?
Answer. No.
Question. What did he say, to the extent that you recall, about them owing him money?
Answer. The only thing I recall is he was concerned and upset about it.
Question. Do you recall talking to him about what he should do about that?
Answer. Not at that time, no.
Question. Did there come a time when you did talk with him about taking any action about that?
Answer. Could you rephrase that? Taking action?
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Question. Did you ever talk with him again about——
Answer. The answer is yes, once.
Question. What did he say?
Answer. It had been suggested to me that he needed to document his activities on behalf of whatever those activities were on behalf of the airport commission, and I passed that on to him.
Question. Who suggested that to you?
Answer. Lisa Specht.
Question. How did he come to speak with Lisa Specht about that matter?
Answer. She was my partner for 15 years at Manett, Phelps, Phillips & Kantor, and at some point in 1995—I do not recall the date—my wife and I had a dinner party for Ms. Specht when she was in town. And during a discussion about Mr. Hubbell's plight, she indicated that she might be able to inquire as to why he had not been paid by the L.A. airports or by the City of L.A. I am not sure who. I really don't know. I should not say L.A. airports, because I don't know who owed the money.
She called me sometime subsequent to that—I don't know the timing—and suggested to me that I should tell Mr. Hubbell that he needed to document his work.
Question. Do you recall who else was at this dinner party where this was discussed?
Answer. I do not recall. Folks from Los Angeles.
Question. Were the Hubbells there?
Answer. Oh, I do not think so. I do not think so. But I don't know. I can't specifically recall. This is what, 2 years ago? I don't know.
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Question. Well, to put it in context, Mr. Hubbell went to jail on August of 1995. Do you recall if it was in the summer of 1995?
Answer. I think it was sometime in 1995. Obviously, it was—it was not obvious. I think it was before he went to prison. But even that I am not certain of.
Question. I believe he was paid in September of 1995, if that assists you?
Answer. Well, I don't know that.
Question. I am just saying, to assist in the time frame.
Answer. I have no personal recollection or knowledge whether he was ever paid.
Question. Do you recall at this dinner party how the topic of Mr. Hubbell being paid came up?
Answer. No, I do not specifically recall. That is very difficult. I assume it was a discussion about Mr. Hubbell and his family's plight and difficulties, and I assume—I do not assume anything. I don't know. I have no idea.
Question. Do you recall if you raised that topic at the dinner party?
Answer. I have no idea who raised it.
Question. Do you know if Marsha Scott was at the dinner party?
Answer. I have no specific recollection. I think it was people who were here in Washington from Los Angeles. I doubt if Marsha—but I don't know that. I couldn't specifically recall at this point.
Question. Do you know if you ever talked with Marsha Scott about Webb Hubbell's payments from the L.A. airport matter?
Answer. I have never talked to Marsha Scott about that issue.
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Question. Do you know if you ever talked with Linda Douglas about that matter, the L.A. airport payments.
Answer. If she was—you know, I don't know. Linda Douglas is John Phillips' wife. I don't know if they were at the dinner party. If they were at the dinner party, then obviously they were part of the conversation.
Question. Do you generally recall Linda Douglas ever raising the issue of Mr. Hubbell's payments, at all, in any context?
Answer. No.
Question. Or John Phillips?
Answer. Payments what?
Question. Payments for the L.A. airport.
Answer. No.
Question. Restricting this to the L.A. airport matters.
Answer. No. I can't recall any time Mr. Phillips or Ms. Douglas ever raised that issue with me.
Question. Do you know if you ever talked with Beryl Anthony about these matters?
Answer. I do not recall ever having a conversation with Beryl Anthony about the L.A. airport and Mr. Hubbell.
Question. Other than Lisa Specht, do you recall anybody else with whom you may have discussed Mr. Hubbell's payments from the L.A. airport?
Answer. No, that is the only conversation I recall.
Question. Do you know if you ever had any conversations with Mrs. Hubbell about those payments?
Answer. I do not recall specific conversations, but it would not have been unusual that I—that Mrs. Hubbell was in the room when I talked to Webb, Mr. Hubbell, if I didn't talk to him on the phone.
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I just can't recall when I indicated to him that he needed to document whatever work it was that he did for the City of L.A. or the airport commission. I just can't recall. It was not relevant.
Question. So after this conversation that you had with Mr. Hubbell indicating that he needed to document the work, did you——
Answer. I didn't say—let us make it clear. I was just passing what somebody had told me, that they had made an inquiry; they were told that he needed to document his work, and I just passed that on as a friend. I want to make that clear, because I didn't know what he had done and what he didn't do.
Question. Do you know who Ms. Specht talked to?
Answer. I have no idea.
Question. But Ms. Specht, after initially having this matter arise at your dinner party, spoke to somebody about——
Answer. I assume she did, because she called me.
Question. She called you back?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And when she called you back, she recommended that you tell him——
Answer. She didn't recommend anything. All she did is tell me, he needed to document whatever work he did for the City of L.A. or the airport commission in order to get paid.
Question. And then you, in turn, told that to Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. She didn't recommend anything to me.
I, in turn, which was natural, talked to Mr. Hubbell and said that is what he needed to do.
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Question. And then after that, do you know anything that happened after that?
Answer. I have no idea.
Question. Did you have any conversations after that with Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. I have no recollection of any discussion with Mr. Hubbell subsequent to that matter.
Mr. ROBBINS. Concerning that matter?
The WITNESS. Concerning the L.A. airports or the City of L.A.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. To this date, have you had any conversations with Mr. Hubbell, any other conversations about the L.A. airport other than the ones we have discussed?
Answer. I have no recollection of any conversation with Mr. Hubbell about the L.A. airports from the date in question to this date.
Question. Do you know an Allen Arkatov?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Do you know if you ever spoke with him about Mr. Hubbell working on the L.A. airport matter?
Answer. I have no recollection of any conversation with Mr. Arkatov about Mr. Hubbell working for—did you say for L.A. City or L.A.——
Question. On the L.A. airport, Mr. Hubbell working on the L.A. airport.
Answer. I just wanted to make sure.
Question. I believe it may be the City of Los Angeles.
Answer. I don't know to this day who it was that he was supposedly working for.
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Question. Do you know a Kim Wardlaw?
Answer. Yes, I know Kim Wardlaw.
Question. Who is she?
Answer. She is now a Federal judge, I believe——
Question. How long have you known her?
Answer. And the wife of Bill Wardlaw and also a mother.
Question. Did you ever suggest to her for a job with Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. Did I ever—say that again.
Question. Did you ever suggest to Mr. Hubbell that Ms. Wardlaw be recommended for any type of job?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you ever speak with Mr. or Mrs. Wardlaw about any matters related to Webster Hubbell's work for the L.A. airport?
Answer. That is another compound question.
I will take—I never spoke to Mr. Wardlaw about anything to do with Mr. Hubbell working for the City of L.A. or any entity of the City of L.A.. I never talked to Mrs. Wardlaw about Mr. Hubbell working for the City of L.A. or any entity connected with the City of L.A..
Question. Do you know a Jerry Stern?
Answer. I have known Jerry Stern for 46 years.
Question. And were you aware of Mr. Stern ever talking to anyone about assisting Mr. Hubbell with work or consulting arrangements?
Answer. I have no recollection of that at all.
Question. Did you ever speak with Mr. Stern about Mr. Hubbell's need for work?
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Answer. Mr. Stern and I spoke frequently about Mr. Hubbell's plight and the plight of his family, and especially subsequent to his guilty plea, regarding their economic situation, which we believed to be very difficult at that point. But I do not recall any specific conversations about employment for Mr. Hubbell with Mr. Stern.
Question. Did you have any idea in the 1994-1995 time frame that Mr. Hubbell was receiving payments of upwards of a half million dollars from various consulting arrangements?
Answer. I have read that in the newspaper. No one could be more surprised, if those reports are true, which I don't know if they are or are not, than his friends that he received compensation in that range during that period of time.
Question. Were you surprised to read that he had supposedly received $100,000 from the Lippo Group in June of 1994?
Answer. I think it would be safe to say I was surprised.
Question. Were you surprised to read of other consulting arrangements?
Answer. All I did was read these newspapers. I don't know if they are true or not true. So, therefore, I can't respond except to say, when I read it in the newspaper, it surprised me that he received compensation of this nature.
Question. So if, in fact, the committee has records reflecting upwards of a half million dollars, that would—that is a surprise to you that he was earning that type of money?
Answer. Bordering on shock.
Question. Why do you say that?
Answer. Because during this period of time I would have frequent conversations, as a friend of Mr. Hubbell, concerning the education of his children and how his wife and children were going to maintain themselves when he went to prison. I was deeply concerned about that.
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Question. What did—in these discussions, did he relate to you his financial condition?
Answer. Only generally, and he never referred to compensation in the nature you are speaking of or the newspapers wrote about subsequently.
Question. Were you aware in this time frame——
Answer. Could we make it clear, these articles I think did not appear until 1997. These conversations, I was having in 1995, so therefore I had no knowledge whatsoever.
Question. Certainly. I understand that.
Answer. I just want to make that clear because we are talking two different time frames.
Question. I am asking, in light of the articles that have appeared, beginning late last year in 1996 and throughout this year in 1997, which have reflected upwards of a half million dollars in payments——
Answer. I said I was surprised. I had no knowledge of that.
Question. I am showing the witness a July 28, 1994 dinner invite list. It is not clear what it is. I just says Hubbell dinner July 28, 1994, confirms. And there are several marks on the paper, document number 3405, that the committee has received from the American Income Life Insurance Company.
Answer. Go ahead. I am sorry.
Question. And I am—have you seen this document before?
Answer. No.
Question. Understanding that the witness is not familiar with this document, I am just showing it to you as a reference to ask you about a dinner at or around July of 1994 that may have included some of the people on this list, to see if the witness recalls such a dinner.
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Answer. Is there a way that counsel can clarify for me where was—it might help, where was the dinner held and who hosted it?
Question. I believe it is a——
Answer. I am confused by the piece of paper.
Question. I think we may have some other—I believe it is a dinner that Mr. Truman Arnold had at their home on July 28, 1994.
Answer. Okay. Well, if that is what that is, then I can answer your questions.
Question. Okay. Let me show you another document just to assist you. This is a document similar to the document I have already shown the witness, but on the front of it, it has an invite from Mr. and Mrs. Arnold. That is marked TAH 24 through 25. I believe the initial document is a document from Mr. Rapoport, and then the second document is the document received from Truman Arnold, which—they are similar.
Answer. This helps. Thank you very much. That helps.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I will make the initial document Deposition Exhibit Number 8 and the second one Deposition Exhibit Number 9.
[Kantor Deposition Exhibit No. MK–8 was marked for identification.]
[Kantor Deposition Exhibit No. MK–9 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recall if you attended such an event at Truman Arnold's home at or around this date in July of 1994?
Answer. I only recall that I attended only one function at Mr. Arnold's house ever, and this may well be the function. I just can't specifically recall. But I have never seen either of these pieces of paper before.
Question. Do you recall if this event at Mr. Arnold's home included Mr. Hubbell?
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Answer. I have no recollection of that.
Question. In reviewing the invite list, which includes the Arnolds, of course, who are hosting it; Mr. Hubbell; you and your wife, I believe; and then Mr. Rapoport, Marsha Scott, Mark Middleton, Beryl and Shelia Anthony, Senator Pryor, Nancy Hernreich—I am not including everybody here. It says Vernon and Ann Jordan. These are confirms on perhaps a particular date; I have no idea, I don't know if these people all attended. I am wondering if you have any recollection of any of these other people at the dinner that you attended at the Arnolds?
Answer. I have no recollection of who was there. I went to the Arnolds home once for dinner. This well could be it; I don't know that though, and I do not remember specifically who was there other than Mr. and Mrs. Arnold.
I can't confirm that this was the dinner or not. I did go to one dinner at Mr. Arnold's home. In fact it is the only time I have ever been at Mr. Arnold's home.
Question. Do you know if this dinner was, do you recall if the dinner that you attended at the Arnold's home was in honor of the Hubbells or for the Hubbells?
Answer. I can't recall.
Question. Would it assist if, I believe the Hubbells' anniversary is somewhere around this date. Do you recall if it was an anniversary or something like that?
Answer. I really don't remember. If I could recall, I would tell you. I really do not remember.
Question. Do you know Mark Middleton?
Answer. Yes, I know Mark Middleton.
Question. How do you know Mr. Middleton?
Answer. He worked in the 1992 campaign in the fund-raising operation and he also worked for Mr. McLarty in the White House, and so I met him in both of those contexts.
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Question. Were you aware when he left the White House in 1995 of what his work involved?
Answer. After he left?
Question. Yes.
Answer. No.
Question. Did you ever have any contact with him for any reason after he left the White House in February of 1995?
Answer. Other than to run into him on the street, no.
Question. Were you aware of him ever trying to contact you for any business associates or anything like that?
Answer. I have never spoken with Mark Middleton about any business whatsoever.
Question. Were you aware that he was involved in businesses that included Asian business ties?
Answer. No.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I just wanted to go through a list of individuals who the committee has received documentation from that Mr. Hubbell did work for them, just to see if you know these individuals or any work related to them.
Do you know——
Answer. Wait. Excuse me. Do you want to know if I know them or do I know about the work related to them?
Question. I will ask you first if you know them.
Answer. Okay.
Question. But I believe your testimony to date is that you didn't know a lot about the work that Mr. Hubbell was doing. But I just wanted to go through this list, and I think it will be fairly brief.
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Mr. ROBBINS. What was the characterization of his testimony that you just gave?
Ms. COMSTOCK. I said I believe that—I am not—in going through this list, I am not assuming that you have any knowledge about these. I just wanted to make that clear.
The WITNESS. Thank you.
Ms. COMSTOCK. But I just wanted to go through the list and confirm with you that you do or do not have any particular knowledge about particular individuals.
The WITNESS. During which time period? Because I could have read a newspaper article in the last few months that might refer to some of these.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I understand. If you could indicate that your knowledge is from the newspaper that would assist us in knowing what your knowledge is about each.
The WITNESS. Thank you.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you know Jack Williams, who is a lobbyist in town?
Answer. I don't believe so.
Question. Okay. Were you aware of any work that Mr. Hubbell got regarding the Pacific Telesis Company?
Answer. I may have read something in the newspaper in the last few months; but, no, other than that, I would be completely unaware.
Question. Okay. Do you know Phil Verveer?
Answer. Yes, I know Phil Verveer.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Verveer assisting Mr. Hubbell with getting any work or consulting arrangements?
Answer. I have no recollection of any knowledge of Mr. Verveer assisting Mr. Hubbell.
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Question. Okay. Do you know anything about any work that Mr. Hubbell got from the Sprint Company?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge about any work that Mr. Hubbell did for McAndrews and Forbes?
Answer. No.
Question. Or any—and actually when I am asking these, it is any knowledge of how he got that work also.
Answer. No.
Question. I just wanted to make that clear, because I think that is——
Answer. I understood the implication, Counsel.
Question. Okay. And do you have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell getting any work relating to the Mid-America Dairymen Foundation or whatever group it is?
Answer. Something—I read that, I think, in the newspaper, some newspaper, but I don't—that's the only knowledge I would have.
Question. Okay. And you do know Eli Broad?
Answer. Broad.
Question. Broad?
Answer. Yes, I know him very well.
Question. Did you have any knowledge of Mr. Broad providing any work to Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. No, except what I have read in the newspaper subsequently.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell doing any work related to the Time Warner Company?
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Answer. No.
Question. Were you aware of Mr. Hubbell writing a book for HarperCollins?
Answer. At some point in 1995 or 1996, I had a conversation with Mrs. Hubbell regarding his contract or arrangement with HarperCollins. I didn't even know with HarperCollins. Let me just say with a publisher. That's the first time I have heard that name—with a publisher.
Question. Okay. What was your understanding—what was that conversation?
Answer. The conversation was that Webb had signed a contract to write a book, and he was working on it while he was in prison. That's all I know.
Question. Okay. What was your understanding about what that book was going to be about?
Answer. I didn't have any specific understanding.
Question. Did you know if it was a novel or something that was personal to him?
Answer. I thought it was personal reflection, but that's only—that's more of a guess on my part than it is substantive knowledge.
Question. Okay. Did you ever discuss Mr. Hubbell's writing of a book with anyone other than Mrs. Hubbell?
Answer. My wife.
Question. All right. And other than your wife?
Answer. I can't recall at this point. I can't specifically recall any conversation with regard to this with anyone else.
Question. Okay. Do you recall if anyone from the White House ever mentioned to you anything about Mr. Hubbell writing a book?
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Answer. I have no recollection of anyone at the White House mentioning it to me.
Question. Did you ever—that would include the President?
The WITNESS. Wait a minute.
Mr. ROBBINS. The——
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Whether or not you had any conversation with the President about Mr. Hubbell writing a book?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you recall if Mrs. Hubbell ever told you anything about him not being able to finish the book on time?
Answer. I can't recall specifically, although the implication in our conversation was she was concerned whether or not he could fulfill his obligation, whoever the publisher was. You mentioned the name, but I didn't know at that point who the publisher was.
Question. All right. Do you recall what she said about whether or not he was going to complete the book?
Answer. No. I don't recall. I don't know to this date what actually happened.
Question. Did Mrs. Hubbell ever tell you anything about particular topics that he couldn't write about or wouldn't write about in his book?
Answer. I can't specifically recall a conversation with regard to the substance of the book.
Question. Okay. Did you ever have any conversations with Mr. Hubbell about the book?
Answer. I don't specifically recall any conversation. However, it is quite possible that in the few times he called me from Cumberland, Maryland, where he was incarcerated, he may have mentioned it to me. But I don't specifically recall at this point.
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Question. Okay. You indicated you had conversations with Mr. Hubbell while he was in jail, is that correct?
Answer. Yes, a few, yes.
Question. Okay. Do you recall how often you spoke with Mr. Hubbell when he was in jail?
Answer. I can only guess. Probably 10 times.
As you know, he would have to call me. You can't call anyone who is incarcerated in a Federal prison; and so, therefore, it would be at his initiation. But 10 is probably a fair guess.
Question. Okay. Would he call you collect? Is that how it works?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Would he call you at your home or at the office?
Answer. I think every call was at my home. I don't remember any call at my office.
Question. All right. Are you familiar with a trust fund set up for Mr. Hubbell's family to provide money for his family's education and well-being?
Answer. I am familiar with the—with the desire to set up an educational trust fund for his children.
Question. Did you ever have any discussions with anyone about those trusts?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Who did you discuss that with?
Answer. Three people: Mr. Hubbell; Mike Schaufele, who is from Little Rock, Arkansas; and Mr. Rapoport.
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Question. Could you describe your discussions with Mr. Schaufele, S-C-H-A-U-F-E-L-E, who is the trustee of the trust?
Answer. We had one or two conversations about it. We discussed the need to set one up in order to ensure that Mr. Hubbell's children could continue their education.
Rebecca was at the University of Arkansas. Caroline was going to Davidson College; and Kelly was at Maret school, a private school here in the District of Columbia. He generally described to me what he was setting up.
Question. Okay. And what was the purpose of your discussions with him?
Answer. To—frankly, to encourage him to do so.
Question. And did you call him to do that or had he called you?
Answer. I don't remember who called who, but we both were in favor of such a trust fund being set up.
Question. Okay. Was it your understanding that that effort was already under way when you talked to Mr. Schaufele?
Answer. It was my understanding that he was in the process of setting it up, or considering setting it up, and I talked to him to encourage him to continue doing so.
Question. You said you also had discussions with Mr. Rapoport?
Answer. Yes. I—at some point—and I can't remember—I called Mr. Rapoport and asked him if he might consider contributing to that educational trust.
Question. Okay. And what did you—can you just describe this discussion with Mr. Rapoport?
Answer. I think I just did.
Question. That was the extent of the conversation?
Answer. Yes, and Mr. Rapoport's response was that he would try to do so.
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Question. And did you discuss contributions to the trust funds with anybody else?
Answer. Not—not that I recall. That's the only conversation with Mr. Hubbell, Mr. Schaufele and Mr. Rapoport.
Now I may have mentioned the fact that there was a trust fund to other friends, but it would only be in the course of just general conversation. It wouldn't have been specific.
Question. Okay. And why did you call Mr. Rapoport?
Answer. Because I was concerned about the children and their education; and Mr. Rapoport has been so helpful to so many people over so many years that I thought he might be helpful to Webb—Mr. Hubbell, who he knew very well.
Question. All right. And did you learn that Mr. Rapoport did indeed contribute to the trust?
Answer. I can't recall whether I learned it subsequently or I knew it during that period of time. I just don't know. But at some point subsequently, I—someone told me that he did contribute. It could have been Mr. Rapoport. It could have been someone else. I just don't know.
Question. Showing the witness an August 21st, 1995, letter to Mr. Rapoport from Michael Schaufele, I believe we received this document from—I believe from Mr. Rapoport. I can correct that for the record if that's not the case, but I believe these are documents—they are from American Life or from Mr. Rapoport.
Do you recall—there is handwriting in this document which says cc to Mickey Kantor, and then sent 8-24-95.
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. Do you know if you ever received such a letter?
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Answer. I can't recall this specific document, but I—I'm interested now in reading it, because it is entirely consistent with what I have told you.
Question. Uh-huh.
Answer. But I don't remember the specific document.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. I will make that Deposition Exhibit No. 10.
[Kantor Deposition Exhibit No. MK–10 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Did Mr. Rapoport ever tell you if he had discussed any assistance he was providing—any assistance he provided to Mr. Hubbell with the President?
Answer. No.
Question. How long have you known Mr. Rapoport?
Answer. Twenty-four years.
Question. And do you socialize with Mr. Rapoport and his wife also?
Answer. I have for 24 years with Audre and B.
Question. And on occasions have you—did you have social occasions where you also got together with Mr. Hubbell and Mr. Rapoport?
Answer. At some point in 1994—it could have been in 1995, I don't recall—there were at least a couple of occasions where I think we got together. In other words, Mr. and Mrs. Hubbell, Mr. and Mrs. Rapoport and my wife and I.
Question. Do you recall if you had any discussions on those occasions about how Mr. Hubbell was going to support himself?
Answer. These were social occasions.
Question. Okay. When did you first learn that Mr. Hubbell was going to plead guilty to mail fraud and tax evasion?
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Answer. I don't have a specific recollection. Sometime late in the fall, very late in the fall of 1994, very close to the event that you have cited.
Question. Okay. It was prior to, though, his publicly doing so?
Answer. I think it was prior to. You know, I don't have a specific recollection.
Question. I mean, do you recall if you woke up and read it in the paper or if you knew about it before?
Answer. I believe just prior to it. I probably knew about it, but I don't know specifically how, and I don't want to guess as to how I might have known it.
Question. Do you know if you talked to Mr. Hubbell about his plea before that?
Answer. I don't want to guess. You know, we were close friends. I remember learning about it either right before or at the moment of, and I just don't know. I couldn't answer that question specifically.
Question. Okay. Generally, do you know if there was a group of people who would have been among those who would have told you about a guilty plea, a large universe of people or a small?
Answer. It is not a large universe, so I really can't. I don't know who it would have been, you know, whether Mrs. Hubbell could have called me or Mr. Hubbell could have called me. I just don't know.
Question. Following his guilty plea, did you have any discussions with him about his guilty plea?
Answer. Well, I don't—what do you mean about—I am sorry. I don't understand the question.
Question. At or around the time about his guilty plea?
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Answer. What do you mean about his guilty plea?
Question. Did you have discussions with him about anything—in that December, 1994, time frame when he did plead guilty, did you have discussions with him about his situation at that time?
Answer. Well, the only thing I can recall subsequent to that is his—this is difficult because we were such close friends. Subsequent, Webb has said publicly—Mr. Hubbell has said publicly, both on television and in newspapers, that, of course, he didn't tell the truth to his friends or publicly about his activities.
Our—the reason I say that is our conversation even subsequent to that was his explanation was that he didn't want to put his family through a lengthy and expensive trial. In other words, it was—he tried—it was exculpatory in nature regarding any activities he might have been engaged in. But it wasn't specific in terms of what he had done or not done, if that's what you are driving at. I am just trying to be responsive.
I was much more concerned about Mr. Hubbell's family and what was going to happen with them while he was in prison.
Question. Were you surprised by his plea in December of 1994?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And did you speak with anybody at the White House about his plea at or around the time of the plea?
Answer. I don't recall any specific conversation about it.
Question. Do you recall if people generally were surprised by the plea?
Answer. I think that's a fair assessment.
Question. Okay. At that time, had you learned anything about the law firm—that all of the partners of the law firm had filed this complaint against Mr. Hubbell?
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Answer. I didn't know that, no.
Question. Prior to Mr. Hubbell going to jail, do you recall a party that Mr. Stern had for him or an event Mr. Stern had for him?
Answer. Prior to his going to jail?
Question. In the weeks leading up to when he went to jail.
Answer. No—the—no, go ahead.
Question. Do you recall attending a party at Mr. Stern's home that was in honor of the Hubbells or an anniversary or for any event?
Answer. Right after Mr. Hubbell resigned, either that night or the next day, I recall a function at Mr. Stern's home.
Question. Okay. That would be in April of 1994 when he resigned, is that it?
Answer. March. Wasn't it March?
Mr. BALLEN. Just for the record——
The WITNESS. I don't know.
Mr. BALLEN.—there has been some confusion on this. He announced his resignation in March, but he didn't resign officially until April 8th.
The WITNESS. Right. Whatever it was, right after he resigned, there was a tremendous outpouring of emotion at the Justice Department favorable to Mr. Hubbell. He was a much-admired figure there.
Mr. Stern worked at the Justice Department at that point. He and his wife had a function at their home where a number of people who worked at the Justice Department came, and they performed skits, and they sang songs and generally were very supportive of him.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay. Do you recall if Janet Reno was at that event?
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Answer. I don't recall. I really don't recall.
Question. Generally, Justice Department people were at the event?
Answer. Yes, and friends and so on, yes, yes. It was a fairly large crowd.
Question. You testified you had kept in touch with—or that Mr. Hubbell would call you from jail on a number of occasions. Is that correct?
Answer. I think I said I estimated it over the number of months he was in jail about 10 times.
Question. Okay. Did you ever have any occasion to visit him while he was in jail?
Answer. Once.
Question. And was this just a social visit?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Did you have any discussions with him about—strike that.
You had indicated previously that since you have seen interviews that Mr. Hubbell has done saying that he hadn't been truthful with his friends and all, at any time while he was in jail did he change his story from that—you were saying in December of 1994 that he indicated that he was doing this for his family and giving you an impression that there still wasn't anything wrong there. At any time while he was in jail when you had discussions with him did he change that story?
Answer. He didn't alter his basic story. He was obviously contrite about putting his family in this situation, but the—there were no specifics, and I didn't know anything that was different than I had known or thought I knew—thought I knew in 1994—in March and April, 1994.
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Question. All right. And, to this date, have you had any discussions with Mr. Hubbell where he has changed his story?
Answer. No.
Question. And——
Answer. Now, I have seen the—Mr. Hubbell's appearance on television and read his statements in newspapers, but I have not had any personal discussion with him.
Question. Okay. So you have not had any discussions with Mr. Hubbell about those types of statements——
Answer. No.
Question. That he has made in the newspapers?
Answer. No, no.
Question. Or on TV about having conned his friends or things to that effect?
Answer. The answer is no.
Question. When is the last time you had any discussion with Mr. Hubbell or met him?
Answer. December, 1996.
Question. What was that occasion?
Answer. I don't remember. I don't know if it was a phone call or I saw him for lunch. It could have been either, but I have not seen him since or talked to him.
Question. Was he on his work release program at that time when you saw him?
Answer. I don't remember whether that was over at that point or not. I just don't know. I don't recall.
Question. And you haven't seen him since December of 1996?
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Answer. I believe that's the last time. It could be January. It could be—but, you know, it has been quite awhile.
Question. Why is that?
Answer. It is—this is very painful because this is a close friend and someone I care a lot about. It is clear that guilt by association is alive and well in Washington and that it became clear to me that any contact between me and Webb would be—could be misconstrued, given the nature of the inquiries that were—had been initiated; and so I thought it was better for me and my family that I not have any contact with Mr. Hubbell.
Question. Is that the only reason you haven't had any contact with Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. Well, I would only add, there is some anger on my part. I think he put me, my family and his friends in a very difficult position by not being as forthright as he might have been. However, the main reason is the overall atmosphere here in Washington and the fact that you put yourself and your family and others in jeopardy if you are seen with Mr. Hubbell. It is our modern day answer to shunning.
Question. Did the stories that have come out about the money that you have indicated previously you did not know he was making have any impact as to how you viewed Mr. Hubbell's truthfulness?
Mr. ROBBINS. Can I just ask—I mean, you are inquiring as to why old friends don't see each other after one of them has been some through some difficult times. How in the world does that advance the appropriate mission of this committee? Could you explain that to me? Tell me how that advances the appropriate mission of this committee, and then maybe the witness will answer the question.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Well, the witness has testified as to perhaps changing stories that—or changing impressions that he has had of Mr. Hubbell's truthfulness.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Is that correct?
Mr. ROBBINS. I have put a question to you, as counsel for this committee. I would like to know why it is that Mr. Kantor's reasons for maintaining a relationship with Mr. Hubbell can possibly advance the appropriate mission of this committee? I would like you to answer my question before I—before I give the witness instructions as to whether he should answer yours.
Ms. COMSTOCK. This committee is looking at a number of activities involving Mr. Hubbell, including a lot of payments that Mr. Hubbell got from people that apparently this witness and others were not aware of and what those were about; and we are talking with the witness about those activities. I am just asking his understanding over time.
Mr. ROBBINS. He has answered that question fairly well. He has answered now for two and a half hours on this same line of questions.
Now you are inquiring why two old friends don't see each other as often as they used to. He has given you an answer, which I have to tell you, the work of the Congress has something to do with, which is that the atmosphere that has poisoned the well of ordinary politics in this city for some time now.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I think what I am trying to determine is if that's all it is, that if all of these stories had come out about Mr. Hubbell and the half million dollars which the committee has received a number—documentation of a number of these, if that had come out but there was no investigation, would you have no problem then with Mr. Hubbell's truthfulness to you?
Mr. BALLEN. But what——
Mr. ROBBINS. Goodness sakes.
The WITNESS. I am sorry. Let me just say, I have really tried to be responsive; and I appreciate your trying to do your job. Let me just end this line of questioning, I hope, by saying that in Washington no good deed goes unpunished.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you know a woman name Pauline Kanchanalak?
Answer. Do I know her?
Question. Yes.
Answer. I have met her on one occasion. I don't know her.
Question. When did you meet her?
Answer. At some point when I was United States Trade Representative, I made a speech to the United States Thailand Business Council at a hotel here in Washington. I was greeted at the door by Ms. Kanchanalak——
Question. Were you aware of——
Answer. And escorted to the podium, and I made my speech and left.
Question. Okay. Were you aware of Ms. Kanchanalak being a DNC donor?
Answer. No.
Question. Did anyone from the DNC ever contact you about making that speech, to your knowledge?
Answer. No. That speech was put on my schedule by my staff, and I don't—I don't know how the request came in and never asked. I just made the speech. These business councils were important in trying to open markets and expand the sale of U.S. goods abroad.
Question. All right. Do you have any knowledge of whether DNC officials ever contacted anyone on your staff about speaking at particular events?
Answer. About speaking at—yes, they contacted my staff about that, yes, about my speaking at particular events.
Question. How was that handled, the process?
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Answer. It was handled by professional staff and, on a very few occasions, I spoke at DNC-sponsored events, maybe—I don't know how many but very few over the course of 4 years.
Question. Okay. In your——
Mr. BALLEN. Is this—I don't think it is clear whether this was during your time as the United States Trade Representative or at the Commerce Department.
The WITNESS. Well, I——
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recall which it was?
Answer. I think—well, I have no specific recollection. I believe I probably spoke at a few DNC events as USTR and when I was Secretary of Commerce, but it would be very few.
Question. Okay. Maybe this would assist. This is a September 15th, 1994, message, which I believe we received from the White House.
Answer. Would you explain where this document came from?
Question. This came from the White House. I don't know. I am not representing this as your document. We just got this document from the White House.
Again, I will apologize. The White House documents have come in with virtually little or no explanation as to what they are, so it does make it difficult. So I am not representing it as anything to you, nor am I asking—you know, implying that you have any knowledge about it.
We are trying to figure out, from the little that we get from the White House, if witnesses can make any sense of these for us since the White House has not been able to.
Mr. BALLEN. For the record, I am going to object to your characterization, ''the documents we get from the White House.'' I am also going to object to continually showing the witness documents that he has no knowledge of, that are not designed to assist his recollection, and that there is no foundation laid in the record that he could possibly respond to.
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I mean, we have had a whole series of documents from the Justice Department, from the White House or from wherever you say they come from, without a lot of explanation as to what they are. I don't think it is proper to show them to the witness without laying a proper foundation.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Mr. Ballen, I hope you will join the committee in requesting once again that the White House provide additional explanations and production logs for the documents, something they have refused to do for the past 8 months. But we are left to, unfortunately, ask the witnesses since the White House can't explain their documents.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. You aren't familiar with this document, is that correct?
Answer. No, I am not. I have never seen this document.
Question. Okay. Thank you.
Other than this——
The WITNESS. May I ask counsel a question?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Sure.
[Discussion held off the record.]
Mr. ROBBINS. Can I just see the document?
The WITNESS. Ma'am, may I see the document again, please?
Mr. ROBBINS. Have you marked this as an exhibit?
Ms. COMSTOCK. No, I have not.
The WITNESS. Okay. Just for the record, I would like—because this is—could be pregnant here with some possibilities. It says, Georgy, from Pauline Kanchanalak's office, called re dinner with MK in California. She received no follow-up and would like to know what is going on. The number is whatever.
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I never had dinner with Pauline Kanchanalak, either in California or anyplace else.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. The only contact you have had with her was when she greeted you at this event?
Answer. That's all I can recall is that one time. That's all I can remember.
Mr. BALLEN. May I inquire of counsel, we have gone about two hours and 45 minutes. How much longer is anticipated here?
Ms. COMSTOCK. I don't know at this time. I believe you have indicated that you need to be done by 1:00, and I believe we will complete.
Mr. ROBBINS. I can tell you at 12:30 we are walking out of the door pursuant to an agreement we made with this committee.
Ms. COMSTOCK. The time agreement we made was 1:00.
Mr. ROBBINS. Keep rolling along, but that's when we are leaving. Do your business.
Ms. COMSTOCK. You had indicated to us and you said that you had to leave by 1:00. That's why we set the deposition for early this morning.
Mr. BALLEN. Could we at some point take a 5-minute break if we are going to go an extensive length?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. Why don't we continue at this point, and certainly we can take a break before 1:00.
Mr. ROBBINS. We are happy to honor the request of Minority counsel.
Mr. BALLEN. Let's take a break right now.
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Ms. COMSTOCK. All right. We will make it for a few minutes.
[Recess.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. We can go back on the record.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you know somebody named J. H. Zhou, Z-H-O-U?
Answer. Not to my knowledge.
Question. I will provide the witness with a document we have received from Mark Middleton which is marked CC-H-76 through 79. I will allow the witness to take a look at that.
It is a memo to Doris Matsui from Holli Weymouth. It is on CommerceCorp International letterhead, which is Mark Middleton's company, dated June 18th, 1996.
There is also a second fax, which is page 77, which is to Mr. Jude Kearney from Holli Weymouth; and then the third and fourth pages of this document, which is a June 8th, 1996, letter to Mr. Kantor from a John T. McAllister, the Deputy General Manager of Beijing International Financial Center Company. That document is 78 through 79.
Directing your attention to the June 8th, 1996, letter to you, do you recall ever receiving this letter from Mr. McAllister?
Answer. I don't recall the letter at all.
Question. Do you know Mr. McAllister?
Answer. Yes, I know Mr. McAllister.
Question. Can you tell us anything about him, aside from his work with the Beijing International Financial Center?
Answer. He lived in California, was involved in a number of civic and community projects. He was a businessman in the State.
Question. Okay. Do you have knowledge of his business in China?
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Answer. Only to the extent I went to Beijing in—I can't remember—'95, sometime in '95 to sign four agreements, including an intellectual property rights agreement, probably April of '95, and a space launch agreement and two other agreements.
There were a number of receptions. Mr. McAllister, as I recall, attended one reception and introduced me to his partners in Beijing outside the door of the reception. That's all I remember.
Question. Do you have any understanding of what he—his business in Beijing was?
Answer. He generally just said to me that he was involved in developing a piece of property in Beijing.
Question. Okay. Do you know if you ever met with Mr.—is it Zhou?
Answer. I am certain that I didn't.
Question. Do you recall Mr. Middleton or anyone from his office ever contacting you about meeting with Mr. Zhou?
Answer. This is going to be—neither Mr. Middleton nor anyone from his office ever contacted me about meeting with Mr. Zhou or contacted me personally about meeting with anyone else.
Question. Okay. Do you know—this letter was written, I guess, while you were at the Commerce Department. Do you know what the process would have been—how your office handled such requests at that time?
Answer. Only generally. They would have been reviewed by the correspondence unit. If they seemed to be of some importance, they would have been reviewed by my chief of staff, Peter Scher, and then those he thought were important enough for me to see he would have sent in to my office for my review. I don't recall—specifically remember this letter.
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Question. Okay. Do you know if you had ever met with anybody else over the past year or so that John—I don't mean anybody else because you said you haven't met with him, but do you recall if you ever met with anybody recommended by John McAllister over the past year or so?
Answer. Recommended by John McAllister?
Question. Yes.
Answer. I have no recollection of meeting with anybody recommended by John McAllister in the last year or so.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I will make this document Deposition Exhibit No. 11.
[Kantor Deposition Exhibit No. MK–11 was marked for identification.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. I am showing the witness—it is an undated document, entitled commission trip contacts. It is EOP 10961 through 62. It has handwriting on it. It is from the White House. I, unfortunately, do not have much more information than that on the document.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. But directing your attention to the second page, where James Riady is mentioned under Jakarta?
Answer. Whose document is this?
Go ahead. I am sorry.
Question. Again, I apologize. We do not know whose document this is, except that it is from the White House. Where it says Jakarta, there are two names in parenthesis, Brody and Adams. Do you know a Brody and Adams who worked with you on any matters or worked on trade matters?
Mr. ROBBINS. You say there are the names Brody and Adams next to Jakarta.
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Ms. COMSTOCK. Next to Jakarta.
The WITNESS. I see. I am sorry.
Mr. ROBBINS. Up at the top of the page.
The WITNESS. I see. I am sorry.
First of all, could you just—I am sorry. Where does this document come from? What commission? Who generated it?
Ms. COMSTOCK. The White House, in response to our request, with no explanation besides it comes in a box with hundreds of other documents that are unexplained.
The WITNESS. Okay. I don't know who they are referring to. I don't want to guess. I just don't know.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay. Just directing your attention to where it says James Riady and it says, paren, good friend of President and Kantor, Adams can call, and then that is crossed out, do you know why anyone at the White House would think that you are a good friend of James Riady?
Answer. I have no idea. I have—as far as I can recollect, I have only—recollect, I only met James Riady twice; once I described to you in Little Rock at a reception with about 150 people in the summer of 1992 and once in Jakarta at a reception and dinner hosted by our ambassador, a guest list put together by our ambassador to Indonesia, in which I was the honored guest, and I was seated at a table during dinner by the ambassador next to James Riady.
Question. Okay. That was—I am sorry, the date of that dinner was?
Answer. That was the APEC conference in November of 1994.
Question. During that November, 1994, trip, were you aware of the President meeting with Mr. Riady on any occasion?
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Answer. No.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. I am not making that an exhibit. The witness has indicated he is not familiar with it or why——
The WITNESS. It appears none of us are familiar with it.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. On the November, 1994, trip to Jakarta that you have indicated, did you ever have any knowledge that there was at one point an interest in having an Arkansas delegation go to Jakarta on that summit trip?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you ever talk with Bruce Lindsey about any people who were going to go on that trip to Jakarta?
Answer. No, not that I can recollect.
Question. Do you know John Huang?
Answer. I don't know him. It is quite possible, although I can't recollect specifically, that I may have met him in the 20 years I was in Los Angeles at some civic or political event, but I don't know him.
Question. Okay. And in the past 4 or 5 years, do you recall having met him on any occasions?
Answer. I don't recollect any event in the last 4 or 5 years that I met John Huang, although it is not impossible that at some large event I might have shaken his hand. I just don't recall.
Question. Would you have had any personal meetings with him or small groups at any time?
Answer. I don't remember any personal meetings with John Huang or any small group that he was in.
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Question. In the fall of 1996, when issues related to Mr. Huang's fund-raising arose, did you have any conversations with anyone at the White House about Mr. Huang?
Answer. About Mr. Huang?
Question. Yes.
Answer. No.
Question. Or about any fund-raising issues in connection with Mr. Huang?
Answer. No.
Question. I wanted to ask some questions about the Bingaman Commission and Mr. Trie. When you first started the appointment process for the Bingaman Commission, can you describe how you went about selecting who would be on that commission?
Answer. We had a meeting at USTR, and I directed my—what we call public liaison—or public and private sector liaison to choose people who had knowledge of Asia, our trade relations, and generally took a position in favor of fair trade and open markets.
Question. Would that be a pro-MFN position, for example, in relation to China?
Answer. It would be a pro-U.S. worker position.
Question. And what would that be?
Answer. Open markets, expand exports, make the rules fair and level the playing field.
Question. All right. Again, would that include being for an MFN extension?
Answer. It depends—we could get into a long and very interesting political discussion of whether it means MFN or not, depending on the situation; and I would recommend that if we want to get out of here by 6:00 tonight you don't get me started on that, with all due respect.
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Question. Okay. This is an April 7th, 1995, memo of the office of the United States Trade Representative, a memo for Peter Scher, Ira Shapiro, Nancy Leamond and Ann Lazado from Jennifer Hillman regarding the Bingaman Commission. And directing your attention to the second paragraph on the page, it says, there will be—the appointment of the commissioners would take some time, given that they will need IRS/FBI clearance and White House clearance. Can you describe your knowledge of that clearance process?
Answer. I don't have specific knowledge of it because I didn't work in that area. But, obviously, every—I assumed every White House appointee received the same kinds of clearances, and they were vetted by the agencies indicated.
Question. To your knowledge, were all the appointees to the commission? Did they get an FBI clearance?
Answer. I can only make an assumption that they did. I don't know that for a fact.
Question. But it was your understanding that part of the process is they should be getting an FBI clearance to be on this commission?
Answer. Well, let me just say I have no specific knowledge of the process. I can only—I only made assumptions that that was the case. However, I have no personal knowledge of that.
Question. Okay. Given the information that the commissioners would have access to, was it your understanding that some of this would be sensitive information or information that wasn't generally disseminated—you know, made public?
Answer. Almost all of it would have been public information. Very little of it would have been not generally available to the public.
Question. Okay. I am just trying to get a sense, because I know a lot of the documents that Mr. Trie, you know, and the commissioners reviewed, you know, we were asked initially to review at the White House because of their sensitivity. I am just trying to get a sense of maybe what your understanding of the kind of documents that he was reviewing were.
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Answer. It is not a question that I was personally involved in.
Question. Can you describe your knowledge of how Charlie Trie came to be a member of this Bingaman Commission?
Answer. I don't have any specific personal knowledge and very little recollection. After I gave the criteria that I did, the process took place between USTR and the White House. The commission was put together, and I signed off on the recommendations as the staff gave them to me.
Question. Did you suggest the name of Charlie Trie for the commission?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know who did?
Answer. I have no idea.
Question. Have you since, in the past year or so, talked with anyone about who may have suggested his name——
Answer. No.
Question. For the commission?
Ms. COMSTOCK. I am showing the witness an e-mail from Jennifer Hillman to Demetri Boutris—two e-mails, one on the top and one on the bottom. The one on the bottom is from Phyllis Jones to Jennifer Hillman and Peter Scher. It is dated—both of them are dated September 21st, 1995. This is an unmarked document which we received from the USTR. I will allow the witness to review the document.
The WITNESS. Yes, I have looked at it, yes.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay. Directing your attention to the bottom half of the page, the second e-mail on the page, in the first paragraph, it says, ''I spoke with Charles Duncan about Bingaman late Wednesday.''
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Do you know who Charles Duncan is?
Answer. I—did he—you know, I am having a hard time. Did he work at the White House? I very vaguely recollect the name.
Question. He is the one who works in White House personnel. If you don't know, I am not asking you to speculate.
Answer. I have probably met him. I don't know him.
Question. Do you recall if you had any discussions with him about nominees to the Bingaman Commission?
Answer. Not that I can recall.
Question. Okay. Continuing in that paragraph, it says, ''Here is the update,'' quote, ''they have not bumped anyone off of our list. However, they want to add three people—a Senator Sarbanes person,'' and then, paren, ''Charles will let me know the name,'' closed paren, comma, ''a DNC nominee, Yah Lin Trie,'' Y-A-H L-I-N Trie, T-R-I-E, President of Daihatsu International, an international trading company, and an Asian American executive from Toys-R-Us.'' Those are the three individuals apparently. It is closed paren. I am sorry, ''and the Asian American executive from Toys-R-Us,'' not ''as.''
Do you recall if there was, I guess—prior to this September 21st or at or around September 21st, when it says they have not bumped anyone off of our list, was there a list that USTR had come up with before?
Answer. As I said to you before, the staff was working with the White House and was trying to put a list together or put people together under my general criteria for the commission. I was not involved in that process in the back and forth between the White House and USTR, nor am I involved in any of these two e-mails that you have just shown me. Therefore, it would have been—I was not aware of any of this back-and-forth conversation.
Question. I think the record will reflect prior that there was no list that USTR produced that had Yah Lin Trie or Charlie Trie, as he is known, being generated from your office. I think the record is fairly clear on that.
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Mr. BALLEN. I am going to object to that. I don't know—if you are asking the witness a question, you are asking the witness a question. Otherwise, you are talking about USTR produced and put it on the record as if—the committee will be entitled to hold hearings on the initial report based on the document.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Your testimony is you don't know if Charlie Trie's name was being proposed by anyone in your office?
Answer. I have no recollection of that.
Question. When it says here a DNC nominee Yah Lin Trie, do you know generally whether there were DNC nominees that were referred to this or other commissions?
Answer. I have no idea. I have no personal knowledge of that.
Question. Do you know what is meant by a DNC nominee?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of people from the White House proposing DNC nominees on any occasion?
Answer. I have no personal knowledge of that whatsoever.
Question. Continuing on, the second paragraph of this second E mail, it says, ''Charles thinks the best thing to do is get the Executive order amended so it can be increased.'' Apparently meaning the commission's numbers can be increased. Do you have any knowledge about the Executive order increasing the size of the commission?
Answer. I have no specific recollection of that. I am sure at some point someone told me they had increased the numbers of persons on the commission.
Question. Do you recall if there was ever any discussion about putting Charlie Trie on this commission?
Answer. I can't recall any discussion about that whatsoever.
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Ms. COMSTOCK. I would like to make this E mail Deposition Exhibit Number 12.
[Kantor Deposition Exhibit No. MK–12 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recall your staff submitting names of nominees to you before that list would be submitted to the White House?
Mr. ROBBINS. You mean in general?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. In general.
Answer. At some point there was a formal submission. That would have gone through me. It is quite possible there were informal exchanges of information between USTR and the White House with regard to members of this or any other commission, but I would not have been involved in that day-to-day discussion, conversation or exchange of documents.
Question. Do you have any—I am showing you another document that has been marked EOP 81127, 25 through 27. It is a decision memorandum for Ambassador Kantor through Ambassador Hillman from Demetri Boutris. The subject is the Bingaman Commission, Executive order amendment. The date says October 7 at the top. It is cut off, the end of the page on the document received, but I believe it is October 6, 1995.
Answer. I have looked at it.
Question. Attached to this decision memorandum, is that your signature on the bottom where it says approved?
Answer. Yes, it looks like my initials.
Question. Attached to this is a memo for Alice Rivlin from Ambassador Kantor. The subject is a draft Executive order. Then attached to that, page 81127 is the amendment to the Executive order which expanded the size of this commission up to 20 people in place of 15. Do you recall anything about this Executive order?
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Answer. Not specifically, but clearly it would have been a routine matter to increase the size of an advisory commission or a commission that you were working where you wanted diversity, both of opinion, background, geography and experience. This was not unusual.
Question. Did you ever have any discussion with anybody in your office about the commission being expanded to accommodate Mr. Trie?
Answer. To accommodate Mr. Trie? I can't ever recall a conversation specifically involving expanding the commission to accommodate Mr. Trie.
Question. Do you know a Mr. Ernie Green?
Answer. Yes, I know Ernie Green.
Question. How long have you known Mr. Green?
Answer. About 6 years.
Question. Did Mr. Green ever call you about Mr. Trie at any time?
Answer. I can't recall any conversation with Ernie Green about Mr. Trie.
Question. Do you have any knowledge about Mr. Green's sponsoring Mr. Trie for this commission?
Answer. I have no knowledge of that whatsoever.
Question. Did you ever have any discussion with anybody at the White House about Mr. Trie being on this commission?
Answer. I have no recollection of a discussion with anyone at the White House about Mr. Trie with regard to this commission.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I would like this marked Deposition Exhibit No. 13.
[Kantor Deposition Exhibit No. MK–13 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
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Question. Knowing what you know today about Mr. Trie, what you have read or any personal knowledge you have on him, would you have recommended him to be on this commission?
Answer. That is pure speculation.
Mr. BALLEN. I object to that question.
The WITNESS. I am not going to speculate on that.
Mr. BALLEN. The witness never testified that he either recommended Mr. Trie or even knew about Mr. Trie. We have been going for 20 minutes on this now.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I am saying what he knows today, would that have been somebody on his list?
Mr. ROBBINS. Look, the first thing to be said is that there is no testimony because it is not in fact the case that this witness recommended Mr. Trie in the first place or that anyone reporting to him recommended Mr. Trie. The second is there is no foundation that he has learned anything about Mr. Trie one way or the other, another point that has not been established.
The third is that had you even established those things, the answer to the remaining question would be pure speculation, which, relying on your initial injunction to the witness at the outset of the deposition three and a quarter hours ago, was that he ought not to speculate. So taken your advice as given, he will not do so now.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I think he has already done that. So thank you for the speech.
Mr. ROBBINS. Next question.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. What are the duties of Jennifer Hillman at USTR, if you know?
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Answer. She is no longer at USTR.
Question. When she was there at or around September of 1995?
Answer. First, she was ambassador for textiles. She represented the United States in textile negotiations. Then I named her general counsel.
Question. What did those duties include in each position?
Answer. As textile negotiator, you negotiate agreements under the multi-fiber arrangements and under the Uruguay Round as well as bilateral agreements with other countries in terms of textile quotas and other matters related to that. As general counsel, of course, she was in charge of the legal staff at USTR and reviewed any and all questions that come under that jurisdiction.
Question. Could you describe the duties of Demetri Boutris in September of 1995, at or around that time frame?
Answer. Mr. Boutris worked in the office of USTR. He was a special assistant to the chief of staff, Mr. Scher, and maybe Mr. Nides before Mr. Scher. I don't know when that changed. I am trying to remember. Anyway, to the chief of staff and worked in the office of the USTR.
Question. Other than what you have told us this far, do you have any other knowledge of Mr. Trie or how he came to be on this commission?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know who was in charge of selecting the names for the commission generally, who gathered them and then typed them up?
Answer. You talking about the Bingaman Commission?
Question. Yes.
Answer. It was a, as I understand it, although I was not personally involved in the day-to-day discussions, combined effort between USTR and the White House personnel.
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Question. What was your understanding of the commission's activities?
Answer. The commission was designed to review our trade policies in Asia, to analyze market barriers or barriers to entry for U.S. products and services, and suggest recommendations as to how we could better impact the fastest growing market in the world, which is Asia.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Mr.—strike that.
Understanding that you had moved over to the Commerce Department in April of 1996, so at the time when stories about Mr. Trie first started appearing in late 1996, you were no longer at the USTR's office, but did you at any time have any discussions with anybody within the government about whether or not Mr. Trie should continue to serve on that commission?
Answer. I can't recall any discussion that I had with anyone regarding that subject.
Question. After you left the USTR office, did you have any occasion to work with anyone about the Bingaman Commission?
Answer. I can't recall anything related to being with the commission while I was Secretary of Commerce.
Question. Did you have any knowledge of Mr. Trie being a DNC contributor?
Answer. No.
Question. Was the first time you learned of that in news accounts then?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Could you describe any knowledge you have about the appointment of Charles DeQueljue to the investment services and policy advisory committee in December of 1994?
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Answer. I have no specific knowledge, no recollection. However, I was under the impression that the name came from the White House.
Question. Do you know who was in charge of putting together that advisory committee?
Answer. Again, we would, it would be the same process as under the Bingaman Commission. We were—from time to time you changed the membership of these advisory committees at USTR. They would have been conversations with my staff and White House personnel regarding the membership of this commission as well as any other.
Question. Did you have any discussion with anyone at the White House about Charles DeQueljue?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know if you had any discussion with anyone at the White House regarding appointing Mi Ryu Ahn to serve on this same committee, the investment services and policy advisory committee.
Answer. Say the name again.
Question. Mi Ryu Ahn, M-I R-Y-U A-H-N?
Answer. I do not recall the person you have just referred to as being on that committee. But I just do not even recall the name.
Question. Are there any other additional individuals other than the ones we have talked about who would have been involved in compiling names for these type of committees or commissions?
Answer. It would have been either Phyllis Jones or Debbi Shon who worked in my—with our public liaison operation from USTR's side. At the White House I would have no idea of course. That is all I know.
Question. Those individuals would have been working with the White House Office of Personnel?
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Answer. Well, they would have compiled a list and would have sent it over informally, would have tried to put names acting together.
Question. Was this back and forth between the 2 offices?
Answer. I just assume. I was not involved in that day-to-day.
Question. I am trying to get your understanding of the process to the extent you have knowledge?
Were you aware of any conflict of interest waivers that were raised in relation to Mr. DeQueljue?
Answer. No.
Question. In the 1993 APEC summit in Seattle, do you recall ever meeting with James Riady at that summit?
Answer. No. I have no recollection of meeting with James Riady in 1993 at APEC.
Question. I would like to discuss with you some issues related to GSP privileges for Indonesia.
Mr. ROBBINS. GSP privileges for Indonesia.
The WITNESS. General System of Preferences. Are we going to discuss policy matters?
Mr. ROBBINS. I assume it will not take a lot of windup to get to some pitch that relates to fund-raising improprieties. We are not going to have a seminar on trade policy, are we?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recall in 1993 discussing GSP issues with anybody at the White House in regards to Indonesia?
Mr. BALLEN. I object. I do not see the pertinency of this question.
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Mr. ROBBINS. I have a pending objection as well. The objection is that if you need to lay a foundation for something that is going to connect the alleged fund-raising improprieties, that is fine. But we are not going to engage in some long dissertation on the policy of this administration or any of its constituents.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I am showing the witness a document marked HHH 3585 through 96, which is a January 20, 1994 letter to the Honorable Michael Kantor from Dr. Arifin Siregar, Ambassador to Indonesia. It discusses steps taken by the government of Indonesia to improve worker rights. These are documents that we received from Hip Hing Holding Company, which is a company that John Huang worked with in the early 1990s. Do you recall receiving this document from the Ambassador of Indonesia.
Mr. BALLEN. Mr. Kantor, I will object to the question again. Same grounds as to relevance before this committee's inquiry.
Mr. ROBBINS. Do you remember getting this document?
The WITNESS. Well, I remember the situation and our commitment to try to improve worker rights in Indonesia and that Bob Cassidy and Mr. Damond, who worked for Bob negotiating this agreement. I do not remember the specific letter at this point, but I certainly remember the fact that we reached this agreement in 1994.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Were you aware of anyone from the Riady family or Lippo Group or Lippo affiliates such as Hip Hing Holdings contacting anyone at the White House about these worker rights issues?
Answer. No.
Question. Were you aware of John Huang contacting anybody at the White House about these matters in 1993 or early 1994?
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Answer. No.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I will make this Deposition Exhibit Number 14.
[Kantor Deposition Exhibit No. MK–14 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you know if you ever talked about any of these GSP privileges for Indonesia issues with Webb Hubbell?
Answer. No.
Question. Are you aware of reports that I believe Mr. Damond said that he had been asked to meet with somebody from the Riady family at some point about this issue?
Mr. ROBBINS. Is he aware of reports like in the Washington Post?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. News reports.
Answer. Mr. Damond?
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Damond ever meeting with the Riadys?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you know if individuals at the USTR office were involved in the decision in February of 1994 to end the review of Indonesia on the labor standards issues?
Answer. We were—the person at USTR involved in that decision, the review was not ended. The investigation was suspended based upon the agreement to improve the labor rights in Indonesia. It was a very good agreement, and Mr. Damond is a career employee and did a very good job on that, working with Bob Cassidy, who is his supervisor. Both of them are career employees.
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Mr. BALLEN. I will continue to object. I was not aware and I do not think any of our Members were aware that we were going to have a deposition where Mr. Kantor was going to be questioned about his tenure at USTR, which, I will editorialize, was a distinguished tenure. There has never been a statement by the chairman or anyone before the committee that the deposition of Mr. Kantor would encompass inquiries into his tenure at USTR and how he performed his function there.
Ms. COMSTOCK. There have been issues raised in the newspaper about how——
Mr. BALLEN. The newspaper does not govern how we investigate it. Maybe it does for you. Maybe that is the problem here. But I thought we had a committee. I thought we had resolutions that we passed in the House and we must ask questions pertinent to those.
Ms. COMSTOCK. And we are. I am asking about the Riady family. There are letters to the White House discussing these issues and other areas. I am finding out any knowledge that Mr. Kantor has about any communications that may have gone to his office or others. He has testified what that knowledge is or is not. That is what we are doing here. I think there has certainly been public reports that human rights groups were very concerned about how those issues came about, and we are looking at how and why they came about. I think we have Members of our committee on both sides of the aisle who are very interested in those human rights issues.
Mr. BALLEN. If you can point me to a specific authorization of this committee or in any committee meeting or any statement that we were to investigate human rights in Indonesia.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Government policies and how they were affected by donors, Mr. Riady being a large donor in the 1992 campaign, is an issue that is being examined by the committee.
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Mr. ROBBINS. I would like the record to reflect that to the extent that there were any facts asserted in the last colloquy, they do not reflect the testimony of this witness who is patiently abiding the next question.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Did you participate in what has been generally described as the Wednesday money meetings at the White House?
Answer. Wednesday what?
Question. Money meetings at the White House in 1996.
Answer. I had nothing to do with money in 1996, as you described it. I assume you are referring to campaign fund-raising.
Question. Yes, and I am also referring to meetings that were held at the White House, strategy meetings on Wednesday evenings?
Answer. Those were not about campaign fund-raising.
Question. At any of the meetings, did you attend Wednesday evening strategy meetings?
Answer. Which meetings are you talking about?
Question. Well, you said you have not attended money meetings at the White House.
Answer. Right.
Question. And then separately did you attend strategy meetings during the campaign in 1996 at the White House?
Answer. With who?
Question. With anyone at the White House.
Answer. Yes. I attended what were known as Wednesday evening meetings on political strategy, most of which were not held on Wednesday evening.
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Question. And were fund-raising issues, they were not discussed at those meetings?
Answer. No, they were not.
Ms. COMSTOCK. If we could just take a moment, I think I am just about done.
(Recess).
Ms. COMSTOCK. Back on the record.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. This is an October 17, 1996 Los Angeles Daily News article. I only have one copy of it here, but in this article it indicates that Mr. Riady did meet with trade official Joseph Damond, Director for Southeast Asia at the Trade Representative's office. The article says, ''Mr. Damond described Riady's role today as something of a cultural intermediary advising American officials about how to shape their demands,'' so that the Indonesian government understood we were not trying to harm their competitiveness but we truly wanted to improve labor conditions.
I wanted to show that to the witness and ask if you had any understanding of Mr. Riady having any type of role like that in relation to trade issues with Indonesia?
Answer. I never discussed Indonesia trade issues with Mr. Riady. I never met with Mr. Riady about Indonesia trade issues and have no knowledge of Mr. Damond's meeting with Mr. Riady, if in fact it ever occurred.
Question. Do you have any knowledge about anybody at the White House having any discussion with Mr. Riady about any trade issues or being a cultural intermediary?
Answer. No, I have no personal knowledge of that whatsoever.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I will make this Deposition Exhibit Number 15.
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[Kantor Deposition Exhibit No. MK–15 was marked for identification.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. I would note there is highlighting on this copy and I will get for the reporters a document that is unhighlighted. It is LA Daily News, Thursday, October 17, 1996. Well, it is a David Sanger article from the New York Times. I think it is printed in the Los Angeles Daily News. The article is entitled ''Administration Offers Defense of Indonesian Policy.''
The WITNESS. May I see that again?
Thank you very much.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you know of a gentleman named Jack Palladino who worked on the campaign, Clinton-Gore campaign in 1992?
Answer. I don't think I have ever met him. I know who he is.
Question. Do you know whether Mr. Palladino, anything about him ever doing any investigations of Members of Congress?
Answer. I have no knowledge of that whatsoever.
Mr. BALLEN. I will object to this line of questioning. I fail to see the relevance again to the inquiry.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I believe that is all the questions I have at this time. Thank you, Mr. Kantor.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BALLEN:
Question. Mr. Kantor, I have just five questions, just so the record is clear.
When Mr. Hubbell announced his intention to resign from the Department of Justice, did you have any reason to believe that he was possibly guilty of criminal misconduct?
Answer. No.
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Question. In fact, it was not until late in 1994 at or about his guilty plea that you found out that there was any criminal component to his billing dispute with the Rose law firm?
Answer. That is correct.
Question. Did the President, First Lady or anyone working at the White House ever ask you to provide any assistance to Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you ever discuss who was providing assistance to Mr. Hubbell, the President, First Lady or anyone at the White House?
Answer. No.
Question. In fact, I believe you testified you never at any time attempted to find any employment opportunities for Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. Yes. That is correct. I have testified to that.
Question. And did you ever discuss setting up trust funds to help Mr. Hubbell with the President?
Answer. No.
Mr. BALLEN. I have no further questions.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Thank you, Mr. Kantor.
[Whereupon, at 11:46 a.m., the deposition was concluded.]
[The exhibits referred to follow:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 680 TO 717 HERE
[The official committee record contains additional material here.]
[The deposition of John R. Phillips follows:]
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Executive Session
| Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, |
| U.S. House of Representatives, |
| Washington, DC. |
DEPOSITION OF: JOHN R. PHILLIPS
The deposition in the above matter was held in Room 2203, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 10:10 a.m.
Appearances:
Staff Present for the Government Reform and Oversight Committee: Barbara Comstock, Chief Investigative Counsel; Bob Dold, Investigative Counsel; Matthew H. Joseph, Minority Counsel; Kenneth Ballen, Minority Chief Investigative Counsel; and Michael J. Raphael, Minority Counsel.
Next Hearing Segment(4)