Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:15:12 EST
Subject: Fwd: [FRCtech2002] Digest Number 33


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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: Connectors Missing?
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      2. Re: Standard Relays
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      3. Re: Double Solenoid, 1 Relay
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      4. Belimo Schematic
           From: "karebh" <karebh@yahoo.com>
      5. Gate latches?
           From: "srsfirst" <csader@sageridge.org>
      6. Re: Split shaft collars and Trantorques
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      7. Re: Gate latches?
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      8. Re: Belimo Schematic
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      9. Re: plywood
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     10. Re: Aluminum Question
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     11. extruded aluminum
           From: "kyle_5_16" <kyle_5_16@yahoo.com>
     12. Spring-Loaded Hinges
           From: David Rorex <davidr@benctek.com>
     13. Bumper rules
           From: "robot662" <Murray.Lane@Intel.com>
     14. Re: Bumper rules
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     15. Re: extruded aluminum
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     16. Re: Dragging Defense Limits - Rules of Engagement
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     17. Re: Fiber Optic emitter and collector
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     18. Re: Re: Bumper rules
           From: Quentin Lewis <bigqueue_qlewis@yahoo.com>
     19. Air storage tanks
           From: "j1p3b" <j1p3b@yahoo.com>
     20. AirPort or Wireless Server
           From: "team384_josephm" <JWM1314@aol.com>
     21. Re: Bumper rules
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     22. Re: Air storage tanks
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     23. Re: AirPort or Wireless Server
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     24. Starting position
           From: "lunatecs316" <lunatecs316@yahoo.com>
     25. Re: Starting position
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>


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Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:04:58 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Connectors Missing?

> The connectors for the window motors, and the connector for the 
> torque motor were not in the parts kit, nor were they listed on the 
> parts list.  How do we go about acquiring them?

A) You are correct.  Please cut the connector off the end of the
wires on the window motor and interface directly with the wires.  To
connect to the Torque motor, we recommend cutting a PWM/Relay cable
in two and using the female end.

-----
ER





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Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:17:04 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Standard Relays

> Can we use standard relays connected to the pressure sensors and the 
> air compressor pump? i.e. the pump will not be controlled by the 
> robot controller.

No, standard relays are not an allowed component.  See Rule K1.  The only place they may be used is on the custom circuit board, and then they may not be used to directly control an output device, such as the pump.  See Rule C29.

The pressure sensors, if used, must be connected to the digital inputs on the robot controller or to the custom circuit board.  By customizing the control program running in the Robot Controller, you can make it automatically shut off the pump (powered by a Spike relay module) when the pressure switch detects a high pressure.

-----
ER





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Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:21:35 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Double Solenoid, 1 Relay

> We are quickly approaching the relay limit, and would like more 
> information on how to control a double solenoid with one relay. 
> Thanks for any links to sources or personal help. 

A) Please see section 2.1.3 of The Robot section of the manual for examples of how to do this.

-----
ER





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Message: 4
   Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 23:54:09 -0000
   From: "karebh" <karebh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Belimo Schematic

Are there any wiring schematics or a pin-out for the Belimo torque 
motor?




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Message: 5
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 01:33:10 -0000
   From: "srsfirst" <csader@sageridge.org>
Subject: Gate latches?

Are gate lacthes sold at hardware stores legal materials? We heard 
they are considered fasteners, is this true?




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Message: 6
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:34:53 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Split shaft collars and Trantorques

> Are split shaft collars and trantorques considered shaft coupling or 
> fasteners? (i.e. can be purchased from somewhere other than Small 
> Parts)

A) Yes, they are considered shaft couplings.

-----
ER





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Message: 7
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:37:32 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Gate latches?


> Are gate lacthes sold at hardware stores legal materials? We heard 
> they are considered fasteners, is this true?

A) Yes, they would be considered a fastener.

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 8
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:36:41 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Belimo Schematic

> Are there any wiring schematics or a pin-out for the Belimo torque 
> motor?

A) Yes, the pin-outs are documented on the casing of the Belimo torque 
motor for your convenience.


---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 9
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:40:29 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: plywood

> Since we can only use sheets of plywood of to 1/2", is it acceptable 
> to double up on it?

A) Yes.  You may use 1 sheet of 4'x8'x1/2" plywood and cut it and mount it as desired.  For example, you may cut it in half and layer it so that you have a 4'x4'x1/2" sheet on top of a 4'x4'x1/2" sheet.

-----
ER





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Message: 10
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:46:36 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Aluminum Question

> Can we weld two pieces of 1/4" aluminum together to get a piece of 
> 1/2" aluminum?

A) Yes.  See Rule K2.

-----
ER





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Message: 11
   Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 04:27:27 -0000
   From: "kyle_5_16" <kyle_5_16@yahoo.com>
Subject: extruded aluminum

Hey

we are using 1/2 inch aluminum bars as supports on our robot, and we 
just realized that this is too thick, but it has rounded edges on it, 
and we aren't sure what extruded aluminum is, so is this extruded 
aluminum and therefore legal?

Thank you

Kyle Dunnigan




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Message: 12
   Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 15:39:32 -0800 (PST)
   From: David Rorex <davidr@benctek.com>
Subject: Spring-Loaded Hinges


Our team wishes to use spring-loaded hinges. Hinges and springs can be
found separatly that are legal, but spring-loaded hinges are not
mentioned. An example of what we are thinking of is something similar to
the hinges on cabinet doors that keep the cabinet shut.

Thank You

-David Rorex
davidr@benctek.com
Team 691
Hart Burn




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Message: 13
   Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:56:39 -0000
   From: "robot662" <Murray.Lane@Intel.com>
Subject: Bumper rules

I asked this question in a previous post but it has not been answered 
yet. I thought it might have disappeared in the grand purge.

Because of the unique nature of our robot we believe we will need 
bumper protection in areas other than 2" - 8" off the ground. If our 
entire robot (with bumpers) fits inside the starting volume 
(2.5'x3'x5') may we use impact cushioning material everywhere on our
robot? To put this another way, can we consider "soft" materials to
be on the additional hardware list so long as they are used only to
cushion impacts?






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Message: 14
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 15:13:53 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Bumper rules

> Because of the unique nature of our robot we believe we will need 
> bumper protection in areas other than 2" - 8" off the ground. If our 
> entire robot (with bumpers) fits inside the starting volume 
> (2.5'x3'x5') may we use impact cushioning material everywhere on our
> robot? To put this another way, can we consider "soft" materials to
> be on the additional hardware list so long as they are used only to
> cushion impacts?

A) No, but check the Small Parts Inc catalog, you may find something 
you may be able to use to help you out.

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 15
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 15:10:46 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: extruded aluminum

> we are using 1/2 inch aluminum bars as supports on our robot, and we 
> just realized that this is too thick, but it has rounded edges on 
it, 
> and we aren't sure what extruded aluminum is, so is this extruded 
> aluminum and therefore legal?

A) Yes, it would be legal.

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 16
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 15:36:31 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Dragging Defense Limits - Rules of Engagement

> You've ruled that it is allowable for robots to grab 
> and drag other robots.  That is extremely distressing, as
> you now force us to DEFEND our personal space in a new way.
> 
> For the record, we wish to concentrate on the ball scoring game.
> However, we consider any reaching into the volume of our machine 
> and/or the seizing of it with the intent to latch on to drag us
> to be a serious social violation of our machine's personal 
> space, and justification for strong defensive actions.
> 
> We now need to know the Rules of Engagement as to the LIMITS
> of DEFENSIVE ACTIONS if another machine has the gall to assault 
> our robot by grabbing it & refusing to let go, and/or 
> attempt to drag us home with them.
> 
> 1) Do we "own the personal space" within the volume of our 
>    robot?  If so, can we deal with opponent devices intruding 
>    INTO that space as we wish?  

A) No, absolutely not.  All robots must adhere to all rules at all
times.  There is no such thing as a "personal space" for a robot that
may be "defended" without regard to the rules.  If another robot is
attempting to grab your robot, that is specifically allowed.  What is
not allowed, and will be penalized, are malicious actions.  What
constitute a malicious action versus mere gameplay will be determined
by the referees on the field.  See Rule DQ3.

> 2) Action questions:
>   A) I know we can't amputate their gripper for their sheer
>      audacity <wink>, but are we allowed to lever them off?
>   B) Are we allowed to torque their gripper?
>   C) Are we allowed to force a wedge toward them to separate us?
>   D) Are we allowed to forklift their machine back?
>   E) Since they opened the door, may we insert things BACK
>      into or under THEIR machine to break THEIR traction
>      and/or interfere with their intentions and allow us 
>      to drag THEM home with US?

A) If you wish to block an attempt to be grabbed, or run away, or try
to break free in a non-malicious way (i.e. no using mechanisms on
your robot to intentionally mangle the other robot), that is ok.  You
may use mechanisms on your robot to attempt to push the other robot
away (think of a flat hand pushing, not a sharp knife) and drive you
robot in a defensive manner so as to try to "shake loose" the other
robot.  You may pickup another robot (but not so high that dropping
it would obviously cause damage or a safety hazard to people near the field).  You may attempt to grab the opposing robot.  You may not contact another robot with the specific intention of damaging it.
 
> 3) Penalty/DQ questions:
>  If we, in the act of defending or trying to extricate ourselves, 
>     somehow happen to either flip them, damage, or shatter their 
>     "opponent gripper" because they simply REFUSED to release us, 
>     are WE penalized?  For example, spinning or jerking our robot 
>     may accidentally shatter their seizing gripper if they stuck it 
>     within our volume.

Maneuvering your robot to try to break free is allowed.  If the
other robot refuses to let go, and they are then damaged or tipped
over in the ensuing tug-of-war, then it is their fault and you will
not be penalized.

> IMHO, I would hope that you simply rule there is a "personal space"
> for each robot such that either the deliberate clamping a part of, 
> or insertion into the internal volume of another machine is a 
> "personal violation", and removes rule protection against damage 
> of the offending part.  That allows us all to DEFEND ourselves
without
> fear of DQ, and should make everyone MUCH more cautious about
BattleBot 
> style strategies, bringing this back toward what I hope is the
original
> intent of this competition.

Our intent is not to turn this into a demolition derby.  However, we
do want the sort of excitement and interaction typical of many
professional sports.  In this case, we are basing our rules of
interaction loosely on the philosophy of an American football game,
where it is accepted that you may block your opponent, run into your
opponent, or grab them in order to stop them from advancing on the
field.  Just as in football, though, you may not intentionally injure
your opponent in order to win the game.

-----
ER





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Message: 17
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 15:50:37 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fiber Optic emitter and collector

> Can a fiber optic 'wire' be used to emit and receive signals from 
> remote areas of the robot where they would be analyzed within the 
> housing of the custom PCB ?  

A) No.  Fiber Optic cable is not considered "wire" with respect to the rules.

> Where is the line for external and internal and wire being drawn ?

A) You are allowed to purchase wire for use anywhere on the robot as long as it meets the color and gauge requirements documented in the rules.  You may also purchase wire for use within the enclosure for the custom circuit board, and it does not need to satisfy the color and gauge requirements imposed on other parts of the robot, nor does it count against the $100 limit on electronic parts used for the custom circuit board.  The "borderline" for this distinction would be at the plastic walls of the enclosure for the custom circuit board.

-----
ER





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Message: 18
   Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:28:01 -0800 (PST)
   From: Quentin Lewis <bigqueue_qlewis@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Bumper rules

Can we use the Small Parts Catalog itself on our robot
or as a piece of bumper material. (since the catalog
itself is in fact availible from Small Parts.)


--- frcengineers <frcengineers@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Because of the unique nature of our robot we
> believe we will need 
> > bumper protection in areas other than 2" - 8" off
> the ground. If our 
> > entire robot (with bumpers) fits inside the
> starting volume 
> > (2.5'x3'x5') may we use impact cushioning material
> everywhere on our
> > robot? To put this another way, can we consider
> "soft" materials to
> > be on the additional hardware list so long as they
> are used only to
> > cushion impacts?
> 
> A) No, but check the Small Parts Inc catalog, you
> may find something 
> you may be able to use to help you out.
> 
> ---
> FIRST MRT
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com



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Message: 19
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 17:46:45 -0000
   From: "j1p3b" <j1p3b@yahoo.com>
Subject: Air storage tanks

Is it acceptable to use larger tanks from previous years on this 
years robot?

Also is it acceptable to manufacture our own tanks from a material 
such as 40 schedule PVC?




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Message: 20
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:43:23 -0000
   From: "team384_josephm" <JWM1314@aol.com>
Subject: AirPort or Wireless Server

We aret thinking about using an AirPort or iBooks as a central server using the 
Internet and File Sharing. We are wondering if it is ok to use AirPort cards and that 
use radio waves to communicate. We fear it may interfeer with the robots. Is it ok?

Thanks.




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Message: 21
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:03:04 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Bumper rules


> Can we use the Small Parts Catalog itself on our robot
> or as a piece of bumper material. (since the catalog
> itself is in fact availible from Small Parts.)

A) You can use it if it satifys rule M18. It would need to be mounted 
so it is not "hard" (i.e. It would collaspe upon impact) see rule M18.


---
FIRST MRT





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Message: 22
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:00:16 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Air storage tanks


> Is it acceptable to use larger tanks from previous years on this 
> years robot?

A) No.  See rule M13.
> 
> Also is it acceptable to manufacture our own tanks from a material 
> such as 40 schedule PVC?

A) No.  See rule M13

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 23
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:10:16 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: AirPort or Wireless Server


> We aret thinking about using an AirPort or iBooks as a central 
server using the 
> Internet and File Sharing. We are wondering if it is ok to use 
AirPort cards and that 
> use radio waves to communicate. We fear it may interfeer with the 
robots. Is it ok?

A) You may use them at an event as long as you subscribe to the 
following conditions:

1) You can not use it to communicate with anyone at the alliance 
station (or the robot).

2) If it is found to cause interference at an event, you will be asked 
not to use it anymore.  We don't expect it to interfere with the 
robots at the event, but it might interfere with AV or other systems.

---
FIRST MRT





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Message: 24
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 20:14:55 -0000
   From: "lunatecs316" <lunatecs316@yahoo.com>
Subject: Starting position

We plan to have the robot start on its side so the it fits into the 
box. But then once the match starts are we able to have the robot 
fall onto its bottom thus making its dimensions 35 by 50. Is this 
allowable?




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Message: 25
   Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 21:58:51 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Starting position


> We plan to have the robot start on its side so the it fits into the 
> box. But then once the match starts are we able to have the robot 
> fall onto its bottom thus making its dimensions 35 by 50. Is this 
> allowable?

A) Yes, this is allowable.

---
FIRST MRT




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