Date: 17 Jan 2002 20:06:06 -0000
From: FRCtech2002@yahoogroups.com
To: FRCtech2002@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FRCtech2002] Digest Number 17


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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. ANSWER IMMEDIATELY!!! (please!!)
           From: "vanphysics" <jvanderway@csun.edu>
      2. Re: Manufactured Replacements
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      3. Re: Magnets
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      4. Re: Timing Belts on Wheels
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      5. Re: Drive System
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      6. Re: ANSWER IMMEDIATELY!!! (please!!)
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      7. Re: Skyway wheels
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      8. Re: pnewmatic electronics
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      9. Re: heat shrink tubing
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     10. Re: Score keeping in the viewing stands?
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     11. Re: Double robot points/DQ questions
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     12. A meta-question
           From: "kailasnarendran" <kailasnarendran@yahoo.com>
     13. Re: Pneumatics Question
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     14. RE: Possibility of substituting sponsor's parts
           From: frcengineers
     15. Re: gearheads?
           From: frcengineers
     16. Re: Breaker-master switch
           From: frcengineers
     17. Re: Modifying Parts
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     18. Wheels And magnets.
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     19. Re: More questions
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     20. Re: Lots 'o Questions
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     21. Re: Worm Gear Reducers
           From: "jnjsouth195" <shall2@eesus.jnj.com>
     22. Re: Optical Sensors
           From: frcengineers
     23. Re: Pneumatic wheels
           From: frcengineers
     24. Re: Tape Measures
           From: frcengineers
     25. Re: Future Active
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>


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Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 18:15:09 -0000
   From: "vanphysics" <jvanderway@csun.edu>
Subject: ANSWER IMMEDIATELY!!! (please!!)

The answers on this board from "frcengineers" can only be taken 
by all FIRST teams as CORRECT.  It is GROSSLY UNFAIR to 
post an answer and then change it in a later post.

THIS HAS HAPPENED TOO OFTEN!!

frcengineers posted that the TOTAL number of pneumatic 
cylinders allowed on the robot was seven (7).  This answer was 
posted no less than THREE TIMES (messages 106, 113 and 
131) the first being posted a week ago!  

Now message 334 (posted Thursday Jan. 17) says the number 
is five (5) and to ignore the previous posts.

THIS IS COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE.  

(It is just as if "frcengineers" had said, "we are changing the 
number of batteries, motors, etc. allowable to each team"!)

We have worked for a week based on the ORIGINAL answer and 
(unless "frcengineers" sticks to its origional posts) now must "go 
back to the drawing board" having lost many days of work.

A similar problem exists with message 306.  The seat motor 
assembly from last year's kit is different from this year!  
Changing "No... but..." to "yes" strongly implies that teams will be 
allowed to use "air tanks, motors or seat motor assembly" from 
last years kit regardless of their differences or quantity.

Please reply immediately - especially regarding any change in 
the actual number of pneumatic cylinders allowed.  We need to 
place our pneumatic cylinder order today!




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Message: 2
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 18:50:51 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Manufactured Replacements

> Since damage to robots is more possible this year, would it be 
legal for a team to bring a manufactured replacement to Regionals in 
> anticipation or in the event of a major problem occuring with our 
> robot? (Such as a fractured frame)
A) You may bring manufactured spares as long as they do not violate 
any other rule which disallows manufactured parts.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 3
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:05:13 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Magnets

> The manual states that we can use an unlimited number of permanent 
> magnets.  Does this mean we can make an electro magnet?
A) No.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 4
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 18:57:12 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Timing Belts on Wheels

Q: >>                Are timing belts allowed to be used on the outer 
urface of wheels 
                for traction?

                thanks for your reply
                -Jeff Rollins
                Team 58 Riot Crew
                http://riotcrew.no-ip.com/riotcrew <<

A: Yes. See Team update #1,2 and addl hw list.




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Message: 5
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:01:36 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Drive System

Q: >>Considering that I have read two post that confuse me somewhat I 
                shall ask a certain question so that me and my team 
might be better 
                equpited. It is stated that you can you use 4 motors 
to power each 
                wheel of the robot, and also that using parts from 
last year is ok, 
                but you can not exceed the number value of materials 
in the Kit, 
                would it be ok for us to use 4 drill motors to power 
each wheel?
                Thanks for the help<<

A: No it would not be ok. 3 Drill Motors are provided in the kit.

M4




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Message: 6
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:03:03 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ANSWER IMMEDIATELY!!! (please!!)


> The answers on this board from "frcengineers" can only be taken 
> by all FIRST teams as CORRECT.  It is GROSSLY UNFAIR to 
> post an answer and then change it in a later post.
> THIS HAS HAPPENED TOO OFTEN!!


A) This has happened.  We apologize for this. We appreciate your 
continued support in this matter.  
Just remember everyone makes mistakes.
 
> frcengineers posted that the TOTAL number of pneumatic 
> cylinders allowed on the robot was seven (7).  This answer was 
> posted no less than THREE TIMES (messages 106, 113 and 
> 131) the first being posted a week ago!  

A) This was an error.  See above answer.

> Now message 334 (posted Thursday Jan. 17) says the number 
> is five (5) and to ignore the previous posts.

A) This is correct the answer is 5.
This question would not have come up if people had read page 7 of 
the Pneumatic manual supplied in the red kit container.  Further it 
says teams may order up to 4 more custom cylinders on the same 
page 7 of the pneumatic manual.

> THIS IS COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE.  
> 
> (It is just as if "frcengineers" had said, "we are changing the 
> number of batteries, motors, etc. allowable to each team"!)

A) We have not said that.

 
> We have worked for a week based on the ORIGINAL answer and 
> (unless "frcengineers" sticks to its origional posts) now must "go 
> back to the drawing board" having lost many days of work.
> 
> A similar problem exists with message 306.  The seat motor 
> assembly from last year's kit is different from this year!  
> Changing "No... but..." to "yes" strongly implies that teams will be 
> allowed to use "air tanks, motors or seat motor assembly" from 
> last years kit regardless of their differences or quantity.
> 

A) This was meant to say
"You can use last year's parts which are exact duplicates of parts 
supplied in this year's kit- as spares only."

----
FIRST MRT




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Message: 7
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:10:46 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Skyway wheels

Firstly, are only Skyway brand wheels allowed? (I'm assuming yes,
                as per rule K1) 
A: Yes.

                  Secondly, what is permissibly for tires? Since tires 
are not
                mentioned in the list of additional parts they 
wouldn't be allowed.
                However, many Skyway wheels appear not to come with 
tires. Therefore
                is improvisation the only option or are tires from an 
outside source
                allowed?

Skyway wheels, any size any type. If it comes with tires, that's fine. 
If not, you can't order tires. If it's not on the additional hw list, 
and it's not available from Small Parts, it's not allowed.




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Message: 8
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:16:57 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: pnewmatic electronics

Q: >>s there a eletronic schematic for the breadboarding of the 
                 phneumatic components available?
                 Thanks
                 -Mike
                 From Sunny Fla. <<

A: We don't have one available, sorry. YOu may want to try the 
pneumatics vendor listed in the manual.

-M4




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Message: 9
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:19:59 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: heat shrink tubing

Q: >>                Is there a limit to the amout of heat shrink 
tubing that can be 
                used if it is not used to insulate wires?<<

A: No, per the addl hw list as long as you don't violate other part 
usage rules.

M4




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Message: 10
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:20:46 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Score keeping in the viewing stands?

> Would it be illegal if a team were to construct a
> large LED (or paper flip-card) sign for the purpose of
> keeping track of score, and if a member of that team
> in the viewing stands, watching the match, displays
> the score in real time toward the playing field so
> that it is visible to drivers and the coach? 
> 
> If this is NOT legal, would it be legal to create such
> a display that only displayed the score information to
> the crowd. (not the drivers?)
> 
> Would it be illegal if a person in the crowd keeping
> track of the score, and yelled (strictly audibly) the
> scores up to the drivers as they compete?

A) See message 108 for these answers.

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 11
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:21:18 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Double robot points/DQ questions

> 1) If a robot had the ability to extend itself in such a manner so 
as parts of it were in both zone 1 and zone 5 simultaneously at the 
> conclusion of the match, will each alliance gain 10 points for 
having the robot in their zone?

A) See answer #122.  FIRSTsnow


> 2)When an alliance is disqualified, will the other alliance be 
> allowed to continue to play out the remainder of the match?

A) Yes.  See SC10 where it is clearly spelled out.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 12
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 14:19:25 -0000
   From: "kailasnarendran" <kailasnarendran@yahoo.com>
Subject: A meta-question

I have a couple of questions:

- If an actuated portion of our robot is to leave the main body, there 
will be some wires that need to run to it to allow us to control it.  
Leaving wire on the field, however, is considered entaglement.  Would 
wrapping the wire with, say, helical wrap, make it non entagling?

=> A: No. The referees and inspectors at the match will be evaluating these also.

- Is a robot considered out of bounds if a section of it (say an arm), 
were to swing over the field boundary?  My guess is no, but i just 
want to confirm.

=> The situation you describe sounds ok, but if the refereees think you are creating 
a safety hazard, you may get stopped and may get asked to modify the robot. 
Will that happen? Realistically, we expect some of this "swinging" to occur.
Be careful out there.

- Assume that some string is extended onto the playing field by some 
means 2 or 3 seconds before the end of the round (too late to do any 
intentional tangling).  Is that still considered a tangling hazard?

==> Yes.

- I belive the rules don't allow any tethered projectiles, this is 
true, correct?  If so, how does one define projectile?  If an object 
is attached by a semirigid memeber (say, a thin sheet of steel), is it 
still considered a projectile?

=> Correct. The only projectile allowed is the regulation soccer ball. 

Thanks

-kailas
team 97




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Message: 13
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:31:02 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pneumatics Question

> Is there a limit to the number of solenoids that can be on the 
> robot? If so, please clarify how many single solenoids and how many 
> double solenoids.
A) Contact the pneumatics people at fhord@hpeco.com.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 14
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:09:33 -0500
   From: frcengineers
Subject: RE: Possibility of substituting sponsor's parts

Q: >> Team 535 is receiving sponsorship in the form of engineering assistance this
year from PHD, one of the industry leaders in pneumatic equipment.  They
have asked about the possibility of substituting their cylinders for the kit
and parts list specified components if we can provide FIRST with
documentation demonstrating the functional equivalence and physical
similarity of the substituted parts(the usage to be part of their
sponsorship promotion).

Is this possible?   If so, could you please direct me to the correct place
for submitting this request.

Thank you for your assistance,

Al Thorn
Staff Engineer, United Technologies - Electronic Controls
Chief Engineer, Team 353, G-FORCE <<

A: No. 

-M4



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Message: 15
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 17:12:24 -0000
   From: frcengineers
Subject: Re: gearheads?

Q: >> I know we can use unlimited gears and sprockets, but can we use a 
purchased gearhead or gear box to work with one of the motors? <<

A: No, unless it's on the additional hardware list or in the Small Parts catalog.

-M4




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Message: 16
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 17:52:19 -0000
   From: frcengineers
Subject: Re: Breaker-master switch

Q: >> Can we mount the breaker switch anywhere?

A: See the robot section, page 8. As long as you follow the wiring rules / diagram and don't
break other rules...




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Message: 17
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:06:55 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Modifying Parts

Q: >>Are there any rules about modifying the parts given in the kit?  
For 
                example, we want to add a larger pin on the back of 
the drill motor, 
                so we can attach something to it.  Can we take off the 
back and mess 
                arround in there, so long as it does not pose a safety 
hazzard?  
                Otherwise, we will have to find away to attach it, and 
it's pretty 
                small eh? <<

A: Please read the manual, specifically M17.

M4




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Message: 18
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:11:31 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Wheels And magnets.


> What kind of wheels may we use?  If we can choose any wheel we want, 
> what catalogue can we choose from?

A) See the additional hardware list.

> What types of permanent magnets could we use and to what degree can 
we use them?  Could we make our own electromagnet?

A) See the additional Hardware list.
A) You can not make, purchase, or use an electromagnet on your robot.

----
FIRST MRT




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Message: 19
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:41:01 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: More questions


> Is there any limit on how much our bot can cost?
> 
A) No.

> Is there any length restrictions on arms or feet as long as they can 
> fit within the original size restrictions?

A)No.

> 
> Can we use water (as a coolant)?
> 

A) No.  It is not on the additional hardware list. It is also not 
include in the Kit of Parts.

> Is there any required thickness on the sheet metal? (ie. aluminum or 
> steel)

A) Yes. See the additional Hardware list.

> 
> What would happen if a bot were tipped over and it wasn't our fault, 
> (ie. a bot runs into our bot and falls over) would we get 
> disqualified for that?

A) No.

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 20
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:47:27 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Lots 'o Questions


> Our team was wondering if we could buy more Atwood motors, being as 
> they told us where to buy them, or was this just incase we burn out 
> the ones we were given? 

A) You may buy more for use as spares.
> 
> If we can buy more, is there any limit? 
> 

A) No limit.

> Also could we buy more batteries as long as we only use one in the 
> bot at a time? 

A) You may buy more for use as spares.
> 
> Can an arm be any length as long as it does not cause an 
entanglement 
> with other bots. 
> 

A) An arm be any length as long as it does not cause an 
entanglement issue with other robots.

> Is there any speed "limit" on the course?

A) No. 

---
FIRST MRT





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Message: 21
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 19:02:19 -0000
   From: "jnjsouth195" <shall2@eesus.jnj.com>
Subject: Re: Worm Gear Reducers

Q: >> Can we use an off the shelf worm gear reducer package vs building our 
own? <<

A: If it's not on the addl hw list, in Small Parts catalog or in the Pneumatics list, no.



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Message: 22
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:14:56 -0000
   From: frcengineers
Subject: Re: Optical Sensors

Q: >> After looking through the parts checklist, and visiting "Banner 
Electronics" website, I have been unable to find documentation on the 
specific optical sensors included in the kit.

Where can I obtain doccumentation on the included optical sensors. <<

A: Look in Appendix G, pg 12-13 for the part specifications.

-M4




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Message: 23
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 22:07:07 -0000
   From: frcengineers
Subject: Re: Pneumatic wheels

Q: >> Would the use of pneumatic wheels listed in the Skyway catalog 
violate the pneumatics rules, ref rule M13. <<

A: You cannot use those wheels as part of the pneumatics system. If you use them outside the pneumatics system, you wouldn't violate M13.

-M4




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Message: 24
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 13:08:31 -0800 (PST)
   From: frcengineers
Subject: Re: Tape Measures

Q: >> If we order a tape measure from Small Parts, are we
allowed to use it or parts of it on the Robot?

-Mark
General Motors and Cranbrook Kingswood
Team #448

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/   <<

A: YOu can use the tape measure, but not take it apart and use parts of it - running afoul of "off the shelf".

-M4



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Message: 25
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:05:27 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Future Active


> How can we get more "future active" components and products tool 
> catalog?

A) Contact Future Electronics, Inc.  See Robot Appendix : Appendix F- 
Supplier Contact Information for their contact information.
---
FIRST MRT





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