Date: 17 Jan 2002 21:45:13 -0000
From: FRCtech2002@yahoogroups.com
To: FRCtech2002@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FRCtech2002] Digest Number 18


------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. RE: coating material
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      2. RE: scorekeeping
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      3. Re: Tape Measures
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      4. Re:
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      5. Re: definition of belt
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      6. Re: Question about compitition
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      7. Re: weight and cooling systems
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      8. raw materials
           From: "Scott Torborg" <scott@torborg.com>
      9. Re: raw materials
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     10. Re: Electromagnetic Clutch
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     11. Re: tape measures and parts modifications
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     12. Re: Fiberglass lamination
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     13. Re: Chain derailer
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     14. Re: Pneumatic wheels
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     15. Re: Circut Board
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     16. Re: Worm Gear Reducers
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     17. Re: Optical Sensors
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     18. Re: Clarify Balls in Goal Scoring Zone 1 & 2
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     19. Re: Possibility of substituting sponsor's parts
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     20. Re: cost on robot
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     21. Re: Breaker-master switch
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     22. Re: max tubing sizes
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     23. Re: gearheads?
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     24. Re: Dimension confusion on goal
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     25. Re: Another custom board question
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:07:47 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: coating material

Q: >> What are the rules governing the use of the coating material 
such as 
nylon ropes, belts, and rubberized paint for the exterior (including 
all sides) of the robot?

Thanks in advance. <<

A: Please see message 337 posted today.

-M4






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:10:02 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: scorekeeping

Q: >>This is a response to your ruling on score keeping OUTSIDE the 
field 
and your reference to "wireless communication." When you say 
wireless, do you mean we CANNOT use white boards? Or, do you simply 
mean things like cell phones, walkie talkies, and other technological 
things?

A: Please see message 108.

M4




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:07:39 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Tape Measures


> Q: >> If we order a tape measure from Small Parts, are we
> allowed to use it or parts of it on the Robot?

 A: You can use the tape measure, but not take it apart and use parts 
of it - running afoul of "off the shelf".
 
> -M4




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:13:01 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:

Q: >> If either team A or Team B are DQ'ed, what is the resulting 
score for 
the other alliance?  Do they get 3 get 3 times 0 points? Are they 
punished for their opponents being DQ'ed?

A: Clearly spelled out in SC10, bullet 3.

-M4




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:18:36 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: definition of belt

Q: >>I am seeking clarification on the belt rule.

1. Seat belts - is that material considered belt as applies to the 
rule 
allowing an unlimited amount?

2. Belts (as in normally for holding up pants), leather or synthetic -
 
is that belt as applies to the above mentioned rule?

A: Seat belts and pants belts can be allowed. 

-M4




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:20:57 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Question about compitition


> My team and I were wondering if it was legal to put a device on our 
> robot the would use pneumatics to propel an object into our robot 
> zone area in the last few seconds of the macth to count as our robot 
> in our area and be award pointes for the accomplish feat.
 
A) The only projectiles can be soccer balls with nothing attached.   
As for propelling (let's say an arm) from your robot, then it would be 
a referee determination as to whether it posses a threat of 
entanglement.  Also remember that a robot must stay whole as per rule 
DQ7.

---
FIRST MRT




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:31:20 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: weight and cooling systems


>  Can we add dead weight to our robot to reach 130 lbs or does it all 
> need to have a function? 

A) 130 lbs is a maximum limit.  You may have a robot that weights less 
than that.  Dead weight can be included, but it would have to be a 
legal part usage. (i.e. allowed on the additional hardware list, from 
the Kit of Parts, etc.)

Can we use a cooling system other than the muffin fans provided?

A) If you can build it within the legal allowable parts, then yes.

---
FIRST MRT





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
   Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:46:00 -1000
   From: "Scott Torborg" <scott@torborg.com>
Subject: raw materials

1) Are we limited in the raw materials we can buy from Small Parts?
For instance, the additional materials list says Al plate must be <0.25", but SPI sells up to 0.375". Also, SPI sells exotic metals such as titanium and tool steel. Are we allowed to use these metals so long as we purchase them from SPI?

2) Does aluminum tubing classify as extruded aluminum? (so long as it has less than a 2x3" cross section)

3) The additional materials list states wire must be insulated. Is uninsulated safety wire allowed so long as it is not used to conduct electricity?

Thank you.


[This message contained attachments]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:45:41 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: raw materials

> 1) Are we limited in the raw materials we can buy from Small Parts?
> For instance, the additional materials list says Aluminum plate 
must be <0.25", but SPI sells up to 0.375". Also, SPI sells exotic 
metals such as titanium and tool steel.  Are we allowed to use these 
metals so long as we purchase them from SPI?

A) Yes.  The Additional Hardware List and Small Parts are additive.  
FIRSTsnow


> 2) Does aluminum tubing classify as extruded aluminum? (so long as 
it has less than a 2x3" cross section)

A) Yes.  FIRSTsnow


> 3) The additional materials list states wire must be insulated.  Is 
uninsulated safety wire allowed so long as it is not used to conduct 
electricity?

A) Again, if it is on the Addtional Hardware list or you can buy it 
from Small Parts and you do not violate any usage rule, then ok.  
FIRSTsnow




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:52:04 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Electromagnetic Clutch

> Could purchase an Electroid brand electromagnetic clutch for use on 
our robot?

A)It is not in the Additional Hardware list but if Small Parts sells 
it, then it would be ok.  If they don't sell it, then no.  FIRSTsnow




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:55:18 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: tape measures and parts modifications

> Q: >> If we order a tape measure from Small Parts,
> are we
> allowed to use it or parts of it on the Robot?
> 
> A: YOu can use the tape measure, but not take it
> apart and use parts of it - running afoul of "off
> the shelf".


>Q: Given the above answer, if we buy a gear from Small
> Parts, are we allowed to cut it for any reason? One
>reason would be to lighten it's weight....another reason might be to 
cut it in half if it was only used
in a mechanism that pivots only 90 degrees? It sounds
as though machining/changing of components from Small
Parts of prohibited?

A: Teams can modify parts they get from Small Parts. Machining / 
changing of Small Parts components is allowed. The additional 
hardware list is where the "off the shelf" limitation applies. The 
tape measure answer was partially incorrect, no flames please.

-M1




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:56:57 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fiberglass lamination

> Appendix C (Additional Hardware List) allows any amount of 
> fiberglass, up to 1/8 inch thick.  It also allows resin and hardner 
> as required for the fiberglass.
> 
> Is it a correct interpretation that we may use fiberglass cloth and 
> resin to laminate the plywood (also allowed in Appendix C) up to 
1/8 
> inch thickness on either side?
> 
> In similar fashion, could the Foam 'Balsa' from Small Parts be 
> laminated with Fiberglass cloth and resin to create a structural 
> element?

A Yes and yes.  FIRSTsnow




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:57:08 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Chain derailer



We would like to know if we could purchase a chain derailer 

for use on our robot.  

A) To help build the robot, you may use a chain derailer from any 
source.  If you wish to use a chain derailer as part of your robot 
DURING a match, you can if you purchase it from Small Parts Inc.  If a 
chain derailer is available from Small Parts Inc.

---
FIRST MRT




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:58:34 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pneumatic wheels

 Q: >> Would the use of pneumatic wheels listed in the Skyway catalog 
violate the pneumatics rules, ref rule M13. <<
 
 A: You cannot use those wheels as part of the pneumatics system. If 
you use them outside the pneumatics system, you wouldn't violate M13.
 
-M4




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 21:04:41 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Circut Board

> Section 2.1.7 of "The Robot" states:
> 
> "
> Inputs to the circuit board may be connected to the following 

sources:
>      -20A or 30A circuit breaker outputs
>      -Speed Controller or Relay module outputs
>      -PWM or Relay outputs on Robot Controller
>      -Switches, Potentiometers, the Yaw Rate Sensor, Optical 

Sensors,
>       Motors, and other sensors allowed in the additional hardware
>       list
> "
> 
> We are also told that:
> 
> " ...High impedance voltages monitoring inputs or low impedance 
> current monitoring inputs on the custom circuit board connected to 

the 
> robot outputs are acceptable..."
> 
> There seems to be confusion on the CheifDelphi forums about this: 

Are 
> we allowed to place a low-value resistor in series with the motor in 
> order to measure current?

A) Yes, a simple method for measuring large currents is to place a 
very low value resistor (of appropriate power rating) in series with a 
high current.  You can then measure the voltage change across the 
resistor (which could be positive or negative depending on the current 
flow) and calculate the current using Ohm's law.  The reason for the 
text about the low impedance input being ok is that, technically, you 
are very slightly changing the output, and text just above it says 
that you can't directly affect the outputs.  Basically, we are giving 
specific permission to directly affect the outputs in this 
insignificant manner.  The same goes for high impedance voltage 
monitoring inputs.

> If so, I assume we are allowed to measure 
> motor voltage with respect to ground as well?

A) Yes.  Keep in mind, however, that the motors run in two directions, 
so you'll need to design a circuit that can either measure positive 
voltages relative to ground on both motor leads, or design a circuit 
that can measure both positive and negative voltages across the two 
motor leads.

> If not, would it be 
> acceptable to use a long length of wire to *act* as a series 
> resistor?  Thanks for clearing this up!

A) Using a long wire rather than a precision resistor of known value 
is allowed but not recommended.  Keep in mind that, for current 
measuring applications, you will likely want a sub-1 ohm resistor in 
order to avoid burning up your circuit.  Many multimeters cannot 
accurately measure resistances that low, and therefore it would be 
difficult and perhaps even dangerous to manually calibrate the wire's 
resistance.

-----
ER





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 21:02:33 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Worm Gear Reducers

Q: >> Can we use an off the shelf worm gear reducer package vs 
building our own? <<

 A: If it's not on the addl hw list, in Small Parts catalog or in the 
Pneumatics list, no.

---
FIRST MRT




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 21:04:35 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Optical Sensors


 Q: >> After looking through the parts checklist, and visiting 
"Banner Electronics" website, I have been unable to find documentation 
on the specific optical sensors included in the kit.

Where can I obtain doccumentation on the included optical sensors. <<
 
 A: Look in Appendix G, pg 12-13 for the part specifications.
 
-M4




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 21:04:54 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Clarify Balls in Goal Scoring Zone 1 & 2

Q: Recently you answered a question which asked:  If balls are in a 
goal 
which straddles both zones 1 & 2, are they counted as scoring for 
only one of the zones, or are they counted as scoring in both zones.  
Your answer was BOTH.  Do you mean if a goal has 10 balls in it and 
it straddles zones 1 & 2, an alliance gets 10 pts for the goal in 
zone 2 + 10 pts for the balls in the goal in zone 2 + 10 pts for the 
balls being in zone 1 totaling 30 points???  I was under the 
impression that if you straddled those two zones, the "kinder, 
gentler FIRST" would give you credit for the #2 zone (goal + balls 
count)as opposed to the #1 (balls only count)zone. Would you please 
clarify your answer.  Thank you.

A: Both means zones 1&2 "together" count as the red "ball" zone. By 
extension that means zones 4&5 "together" count as the blue "ball" 
zone. The alliance wouldn't get 30 points as set up above; it would 
get 20 points.






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 21:10:13 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Possibility of substituting sponsor's parts


> Q: >> My team is receiving sponsorship in the form of engineering 
assistance this
 year from PHD, one of the industry leaders in pneumatic equipment.  
They
 have asked about the possibility of substituting their cylinders for 
the kit
 and parts list specified components if we can provide FIRST with
 documentation demonstrating the functional equivalence and physical
 similarity of the substituted parts(the usage to be part of their
 sponsorship promotion).
 
 A: No. 
 
 -M4




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 21:10:25 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: cost on robot

> What is the maximum price of extra parts that you can have on your 
> robot at one time?

A) There is no maximum.  FIRSTsnow




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 21
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 21:12:18 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Breaker-master switch


 Q: >> Can we mount the breaker switch anywhere?
 
 A: See the robot section, page 8. As long as you follow the wiring 
rules / diagram and don't
 break other rules...

-M4




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 22
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 21:15:12 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: max tubing sizes

Q: >>The hardware list says that 2" x 3" tubing is max size.  Small 
parts 
has some that is 2" X 4".

Since it is in Small Parts catalog, Can our team use the 2 x 4" ... <<

A: Yes.






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 23
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 21:11:04 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: gearheads?


 Q: >> I know we can use unlimited gears and sprockets, but can we 
use a 
 purchased gearhead or gear box to work with one of the motors? <<
 
 A: No, unless it's on the additional hardware list or in the Small 
Parts catalog.
 
 -M4




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 24
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 21:35:01 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Dimension confusion on goal

> On the Drawing of the goal there is 12.5" dimension from the bottom 
> of the upper piece of plywood to the top of the lower piece of 
> plywood.  The 1-1/4" npt galvanized nipple is only 12" long.  Does 
the nipple sit flush to the two planes of the plywood or is there 
a .25" step on each of the Flanges?  If there is no step on the id of 
the flanges, then what dimesion is correct???  Don't the two 
dimensions have to match if they sit flush with each other; the 
nipple and the plywood?

A) We consider the 12.5" to be an exact dimension but we even had 
difficulty turning the nipples into the flanges to attain the exact 
spacing.  We had a carpenter build our goals and he made a jig so 
that he could get the 12.5", which is from plywood to plywood.  You 
can consider this a reference dimension plus/minus 1/4".  FIRSTsnow




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 25
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 21:44:25 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Another custom board question

> The manual states that the board *MUST* draw its power from a 20A 
> circut breaker.  Would it be premissible to use a small lithium (or 
> other "watch" battery) to preserve data in volitile RAM once the 
main 
> power from the robot is removed?  If not, would using a high value 
> capacitor (1F?) to perform the same function be allowed?

A) You may use a battery or capacitor on board the custom circuit 
board as long as it is purchased as part of the $100 worth of 
electronics that may be used on the circuit board.  Please note that, 
for consumable components such as batteries, the $100 limit applies
to 
what is on the board during a match and does not limit purchase of 
replacement parts.

If the custom circuit board needs to draw power from the robot's main 
battery, then it must be via the 20A fused source, which provides
some 
protection in the event of short circuits.  (Keep an eye out for Team 
Update #3.  We may update the 20A circuit breaker requirement to 
provide greater flexibility in fusing.)

-----
ER




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________