From msalo@garnet.acns.fsu.edu Wed Nov 16 00:18:00 1994 Received: from garnet.acns.fsu.edu (garnet.acns.fsu.edu [128.186.6.137]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA23168 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:18:00 -0800 Received: by garnet.acns.fsu.edu (5.65c/25-eef) id AA51553; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:10:08 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 23:42:34 +22311151 (EST) From: Marty Salo Subject: my question To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov In-Reply-To: <9411160319.AA01799@thyme.finesse.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII OK, as I see things, the cable companies want the NII to have 50,000 channels, the post office wants to get into the information provider bussiness with their kiosk idea, and some public libraries are having freenets which sort of compete with private enterprize building the NII, others are saying that to call it a NII itself is a falsehood, because it truly should be a GII. Now I think that if we are talking relatively short term, we might be talking about a multi-gigabit backbone, and maybe evven gigabit lines connecting cities with each other. The public libraries are basicly run by governments, which are competing with private enterprize. I'm a library student, hoping to get involved in net.training, and I think that the freenets are wonderful ideas, but at the same time, I believe that the Clinton Administration would rather not foot the bill for the network. So, I guess I'm wanting some sort of feedback as to how thw present administration feels about letting the libraries try to satisfy the public's desire to connect to the net. Will this be yet another example where government sides with business, and the library's role is diminished? Will we have 50,000 channels with all sorts of complex and expensive packaging of channels? Marty Salo + msalo@garnet.acns.fsu.edu + http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~msalo From sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Nov 16 00:41:20 1994 Received: from silver.ucs.indiana.edu (sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.10.6]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA27213 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:41:19 -0800 Message-Id: <199411160841.AAA27213@virtconf.digex.net> Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.65c+/10jsm) id AA06113; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:33:25 -0500 From: Sean Subject: Re: [AVAIL:41] my question To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:33:24 -0500 (EST) Cc: sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Sean) In-Reply-To: from "Marty Salo" at Nov 16, 94 00:19:05 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1984 If things go as it looks like they are going now, libraries will lose out to bussiness in the war for the net. Yes, this means that we will be drowning in a deluge of what big bussiness tells us we want to hear and the magic of the net will vanish in a poof of monied interests. Some estimates that I have read say that it should cost no more than $10 a year per user for universal access to the national network, including library sites so that those without phones or home computers have access. The NSF has decided against funding the internet anymore and all the talk of hard is about the privatizing of the net. No one seems to get the point involved (or, worse: They *do* get the point). The backbone of the net should be retained by the government. The cost is relatively inexpensive and the benefits are grand. Paying large fees (some plans call for charges based on the amount of data consumed and others by time spent net-surfing) defeats the nature of the net. We have possibilities for direct democracy. At the very least, for representation of mentally distinct groups as opposed to physical. That is, now we are represented in Congress by geographical area, not what our opinions support. Further, money can be *gained* from bussiness by charging them to advertise on the net while allowing free public use. The large customer base will attract the bussiness money and cover for the rest of us and then some. Bussiness may complain that they are taking on more than their burden, but they will also reap financial benefits that will cover the price of admission. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------~ | Sean Connelly "Cyberpunk is a revolution | | sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu that has already become | | sconnell@acoma.ucs.indiana.edu the establishment." | | sleeze@well.sf.ca.us --Someone with a clue | ---------------------------------------------------------------~~ From rbarry@hopper.itc.virginia.edu Wed Nov 16 00:48:28 1994 Received: from virginia.edu (uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.7]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA27819 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:48:28 -0800 Received: from hopper.itc.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa25600; 16 Nov 94 0:40 EST Received: (from rbarry@localhost) by Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU (8.6.8/8.6.6) id AAA29559 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:40:37 -0500 From: Rey Barry Message-Id: <199411160540.AAA29559@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU> Subject: Re: [AVAIL:42] Re: my question To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:40:37 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199411160841.AAA27213@virtconf.digex.net> from "Sean" at Nov 16, 94 00:41:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 756 > area, not what our opinions support. Further, money can be *gained* > from bussiness by charging them to advertise on the net while > allowing free public use. The large customer base will attract You're overlooking that we pay every cent back to business they spend advertising, plus profit. All costs are passed along to the final consumer. It's the basic flaw in the argument that commercial TV is "free." It's anything but. Sorry for the e-mail reply, but our newsgroups are totally empty. I'm only seeing forums via e-mail. -- rbarry@hopper.itc.virginia.edu Freeware Hall of Fame BBS The only thing Americans Hayes Optima 288 - 804-293-4710 have in common is paranoia. Free BBS - 1st call downloads From debut@MO.NET Wed Nov 16 01:00:00 1994 Received: from Walden.MO.NET (walden.mo.net [199.250.196.5]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA00675 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:59:57 -0800 From: debut@MO.NET Received: from localhost (debut@localhost) by Walden.MO.NET (8.6.5/8.6.9) id XAA09421; Tue, 15 Nov 1994 23:54:02 -0600 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 23:54:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [AVAIL:42] Re: my question To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov cc: Multiple recipients of list In-Reply-To: <199411160841.AAA27213@virtconf.digex.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 16 Nov 1994, Sean wrote: > If things go as it looks like they are going now, libraries will > lose out to bussiness in the war for the net. Yes, this means > that we will be drowning in a deluge of what big bussiness tells > us we want to hear and the magic of the net will vanish in a poof > of monied interests. Some estimates that I have read say that it > involved (or, worse: They *do* get the point). The backbone of > the net should be retained by the government. The cost is relatively > inexpensive and the benefits are grand. Paying large fees (some > plans call for charges based on the amount of data consumed and > others by time spent net-surfing) defeats the nature of the net. > We have possibilities for direct democracy. At the very least, > for representation of mentally distinct groups as opposed to > physical. That is, now we are represented in Congress by geographical > area, not what our opinions support. Further, money can be *gained* > from bussiness by charging them to advertise on the net while > allowing free public use. The large customer base will attract > the bussiness money and cover for the rest of us and then some. > Bussiness may complain that they are taking on more than their > burden, but they will also reap financial benefits that will cover > the price of admission. > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------~ > | Sean Connelly "Cyberpunk is a revolution | > | sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu that has already become | > | sconnell@acoma.ucs.indiana.edu the establishment." | > | sleeze@well.sf.ca.us --Someone with a clue | > ---------------------------------------------------------------~~ > I agree completely. However I want to take a more naive track and believe that there are businesses who's interest it is to maintain the library freenets and offer connections into the NII or GII or whatever it may be. Consider our situation here in St. Louis. We are finally getting on line here, adn have a rapidly growing local providre into the internet. At some point it will be economically feasible for them to maintain library connections at little cost. We all know that at the very least the national backbone is installed, and I suppose paid for. If we shrink this analogy, we might see growing companies with growing resources extending them in ways that are like the above situation here in St. Louis. Wys which are essentially not impacting the cost effectiveness of there installed base but providing a needed service none the less. Dave From sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Nov 16 01:08:45 1994 Received: from silver.ucs.indiana.edu (sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.10.6]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA02437 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:08:45 -0800 Message-Id: <199411160908.BAA02437@virtconf.digex.net> Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.65c+/10jsm) id AA09019; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:00:31 -0500 From: Sean Subject: Re: [AVAIL:43] Re: my question...and more To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:00:30 -0500 (EST) Cc: sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Sean) In-Reply-To: <199411160540.AAA29559@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU> from "Rey Barry" at Nov 16, 94 00:49:41 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1248 > You're overlooking that we pay every cent back to business they spend > advertising, plus profit. All costs are passed along to the final > consumer. It's the basic flaw in the argument that commercial TV is > "free." It's anything but. But the cost is only one that those who *chose* to have to pay. The notion of communication *should* be shifting toward a new form of television and, by the definition, advertising. The price for those advertising should not exceed that of current rates. In fact, bussinesses that I am talking with currently think that passive advertising will be much more effective than current, one-way, methods. It is much simpler for consumers to seek business than the other way around. The only advertisers that would lose out would be the ginsu knife folks and the like. Things that are *far* from necessary. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------~ | Sean Connelly "Cyberpunk is a revolution | | sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu that has already become | | sconnell@acoma.ucs.indiana.edu the establishment." | | sleeze@well.sf.ca.us --Someone with a clue | ---------------------------------------------------------------~~ From rbarry@hopper.itc.virginia.edu Wed Nov 16 01:28:09 1994 Received: from virginia.edu (uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.7]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA04140 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:28:09 -0800 Received: from hopper.itc.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa29823; 16 Nov 94 1:20 EST Received: (from rbarry@localhost) by Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU (8.6.8/8.6.6) id BAA03564 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:19:36 -0500 From: Rey Barry Message-Id: <199411160619.BAA03564@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU> Subject: Re: [AVAIL:45] Re: my question...and more To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:19:26 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199411160908.BAA02437@virtconf.digex.net> from "Sean" at Nov 16, 94 01:10:43 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1093 > > advertising, plus profit. All costs are passed along to the final > > consumer. It's the basic flaw in the argument that commercial TV is > > "free." It's anything but. > > But the cost is only one that those who *chose* to have to pay. The The only way to avoid paying is to go without. Go without phone service because all the LD providers pump their advertising cost on to us. Go on foot or by horseback, because the auto makers pass their costs back. And so forth for every product we use in life. Hell, the electric monopoly is allowed to advertise and charge it off to us here in Virginia. As I see that, the idea that we have a choice to pay or not evaporates when it crosses the line from theory to reality. Virtually everything we eat and every store we buy it in passes on the advertising cost to the shopper. When it unavoidable, where's the choice? -- rbarry@hopper.itc.virginia.edu Freeware Hall of Fame BBS The only thing Americans Hayes Optima 288 - 804-293-4710 have in common is paranoia. Free BBS - 1st call downloads From sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Nov 16 01:48:45 1994 Received: from silver.ucs.indiana.edu (sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.10.6]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA07580 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:48:43 -0800 Message-Id: <199411160948.BAA07580@virtconf.digex.net> Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.65c+/10jsm) id AA12579; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:40:50 -0500 From: Sean Subject: Re: [AVAIL:46] Re: my question...and more To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:40:50 -0500 (EST) Cc: sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Sean) In-Reply-To: <199411160619.BAA03564@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU> from "Rey Barry" at Nov 16, 94 01:28:48 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2163 Sorry if I was vague or misleading, but didn't the rest of my posting address the fact that advertising costs will go down anyway? Its pretty basic stuff, really. Advertising by modern methods is not an effective way for many producers to reach their target audience. The only folks who benefit from mass media ads are beer companies, cars and the like. Most are paying a premium to reach a large audience which contains relatively few consumers for their particulare good. Without delivering an entire paper on the topic, let me try to paint a picture for you. Are you familiar with the WWW and Mosaic? Imagine that your company is selling a niche product. You set up a web-page-- a relatively inexpensive thing to do in terms of advertising-- and consumers have 24 hour access to your information. Most of us are looking for bargains, toys, new things. We will seek it out. Currently, there are folks doing just this. Their traffic increases exponentially (web pages can count the number of people who access them). If you are an established producer, one your web page is known, new products will not have the lag time in reaching a mass audience (as with the first days of your page.) One site, many products. Just like a shop that people can access from around the globe. Cheap? Hell yes! Will this drive up the cost of goods? A little basic economic/telecommunications background is here assumed. I will support with more if this is not clear. Do companies have an interest in seeing us all happy and net-accessible? Silly question. Advertising cost is already in our products. This delivery system decreases said costs and expands one's ability to use cost-effective advertising. Sorry if I rambling, but this is my life, so to speak. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------~ | Sean Connelly "Cyberpunk is a revolution | | sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu that has already become | | sconnell@acoma.ucs.indiana.edu the establishment." | | sleeze@well.sf.ca.us --Someone with a clue | ---------------------------------------------------------------~~ From sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Nov 16 01:57:23 1994 Received: from silver.ucs.indiana.edu (sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.10.6]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA08284 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:57:21 -0800 Message-Id: <199411160957.BAA08284@virtconf.digex.net> Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.65c+/10jsm) id AA13233; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:49:28 -0500 From: Sean Subject: Re: [AVAIL:46] Re: my question...and more To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:49:28 -0500 (EST) Cc: sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Sean) In-Reply-To: <199411160619.BAA03564@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU> from "Rey Barry" at Nov 16, 94 01:28:48 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 697 By the by, I don't know if this is unclear or not, but I am not suggesting that bussiness carry the entire balance of the net. Rather, that public access should be guaranteed and that anyone using the net for profit should have to pay for the right. Is anyone in disagreement with this basic premise? -- ---------------------------------------------------------------~ | Sean Connelly "Cyberpunk is a revolution | | sconnell@silver.ucs.indiana.edu that has already become | | sconnell@acoma.ucs.indiana.edu the establishment." | | sleeze@well.sf.ca.us --Someone with a clue | ---------------------------------------------------------------~~ From ext23!RUSSELLB@ext23.oes.orst.edu Wed Nov 16 03:14:04 1994 Received: from OES.ORST.EDU (OES.ORST.EDU [128.193.124.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA13789 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 03:14:03 -0800 Received: from ext23.UUCP by OES.ORST.EDU with UUCP id AA28208 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3); Wed, 16 Nov 94 00:04:09 -0800 Received: by ext23.OES.ORST.EDU (UUPC/extended 1.11q); Tue, 15 Nov 1994 23:37:23 pst From: RUSSELLB@ext23.oes.orst.edu Message-Id: <2ec9b6b4.ext23@ext23.OES.ORST.EDU> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: 15 Nov 94 23:37:22 Subject: Re: [AVAIL:20] Re: Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). > I have a paper I have written recently about the development of > the Global Network -- looking at its history and development. > > I would like to post it to this discussion but it is lengthy > so want to know if that is ok. > I would suggest that you post instructions for obtaining it via ftp and gopher and an offer to return it by e-mail for those who do neither. This way (the Internet way) the recipient decides whether to receive a lengthy document. Opinion of Bill Russell =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bandon Public Library -- Access to the Virtual Conference Via: Internet: russellb@ext23.oes.orst.edu Long Distance Tolls Paid by the City of Bandon Internet Access courtesy of Oregon State University and William P. (Bill) Russell vox: 503-347-3683 fax: 503-347-6303 snail mail: P.O.Box 2029 Bandon, OR 97411 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From ext23!RUSSELLB@ext23.oes.orst.edu Wed Nov 16 03:14:09 1994 Received: from OES.ORST.EDU (OES.ORST.EDU [128.193.124.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA13810 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 03:14:07 -0800 Received: from ext23.UUCP by OES.ORST.EDU with UUCP id AA28212 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3); Wed, 16 Nov 94 00:04:10 -0800 Received: by ext23.OES.ORST.EDU (UUPC/extended 1.11q); Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:50:49 pst virtconf.ntia.doc.gov!avail From: RUSSELLB@ext23.oes.orst.edu Message-Id: <2ec9c7e9.ext23@ext23.OES.ORST.EDU> To: "Cynthia S. Terwilliger" , avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: 16 Nov 94 00:50:48 Subject: Re: [AVAIL:35] Re: Key Issues of Affordability and Availabi Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Hi Cynthia, Here is an echo from the Oregon edge of the States, if not the world. We have a small rural library here on the south coast too, I'm the City Council liaison to the Library Board. > I'l like to hear more from the Oregon edge of the world. Being from a > small, rural library in the Upper Penisula of Michigan, with a very small > tax base...faced with geographical isolation and no clout...how do we get > our voices heard and assure our partrons equal and universal access to > these new and wonderful services...we have no local nodes...every hook up > is a long distance call. What are you doing over there? > The problems sound very familiar. The short answer is that in the near term neither we nor you can "assure our patrons equal and universal access." That can be our goal for the long run, but we must also face the short run and work to assure them at least the crumbs from the table to start with. There have been some very good posts about recycling computers for community networks. DuPriest's post about the BET program is among the best sounding to me. In our situation, we do not have many big industries very close to inherit cast-offs from, so beg wherever it seems wise. You don't need a Pentium to access a community BBS, nor to host one for that matter. An XT is fine for access and an AT will host a very adequate board for up to 8 phone lines. Speaking of a BBS, it is not the kind of node we would like to have, it will not assure equal access; but through fidonet it will provide a first step, e-mail access to the world. More importantly, it will provide a "place" where the community can discuss what they need and how to get it. The Oregon PUC has a procedure by which a town can call upon the PUC to find that there is a "community of interest," with a near by larger town or city. If found, the telco is required to provide "Extended Area Service." For a small monthly fee, EAS provides local calling charges between the two towns. Bandon has only 3500 phones in our local calling area; we have a petition out to get EAS to Coos Bay, 15,000 phones. More economically viable units are thus created; another town our size already has EAS to Coos Bay, so over 20,000 phones will be capable of local (read free) phone access to the future Internet node. Let me be clear! I'm not asking for free access to the Internet, just EQUAL phone charges. The opinions of Bill Russell =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bandon Public Library -- Access to the Virtual Conference Via: Internet: russellb@ext23.oes.orst.edu Long Distance Tolls Paid by the City of Bandon Internet Access courtesy of Oregon State University and William P. (Bill) Russell vox: 503-347-3683 fax: 503-347-6303 snail mail: P.O.Box 2029 Bandon, OR 97411 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov Wed Nov 16 08:26:55 1994 Received: from ednet1.osl.or.gov (ednet1.osl.or.gov [192.84.215.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA07118 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 08:26:54 -0800 Received: by ednet1.osl.or.gov id AA03470 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Wed, 16 Nov 1994 05:19:12 -0800 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 05:19:12 -0800 Message-Id: <199411161319.AA03470@ednet1.osl.or.gov> From: cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Conrad Weiler) To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: avail Reply-To: cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov (This is a statement concerning a recent meeting in Oregon concerning statewide electronic networks. I think it mirrors some aspects of the larger national problem.) I attended the Telecom 101 Net I broadcast (Nov. 1) at Newport, Oregon. Net I allows one-way TV, two-way audio. The state-wide telecast focused on electronic communications in OregonUs future and many cities were represented (Astoria, Burns, Deadwood, Eugene, Newport, etc.). Representatives from Cable TV, Telephone, Oregon Schools, OregonUs regulatory agencies, and others presented their ideas about OregonUs telecommunications future. Questions such as who would pay or who would have access were mentioned several times. Particularly stressed was the need for inclusion of the rural Oregon areas in the telecommunications mix. One of the more interesting questions concerned use of Internet and whether classes could/would be offered to help new people use the system. John Sechrest, from OSU outreach program, responded that such classes already existed (and perhaps more would be forthcoming). I question this approach. It plays into the *school* game of *teach-me*. IUm not sure how successfully one can be *taught* to use the Internet. The Internet is more of an *immersion* process - painful at first - better as you become more accustomed to its vagaries. My guess is that regardless of how many *classes* or *books* that one studies about the Internet - the best *learning* situation is to DO IT! Another thought - rather then saying "how can I learn to use the Internet?", the better approach might be "what do you want to use the Internet for?" The latter question might better focus a person's desire to learn. Perhaps when MOSAIC (or its later GUI incantations) becomes widely available, the graphical interface with Internet connections will make the learning curve easier for more people. Also, we may be putting the cart before the horse again. Setting hardware in position (state-wide telecommunications, national information highway) before deciding software issues (what do we want to provide over the telecommunications system?). Right now you hear mostly glowing generalities. More disturbing at the Telecom 101 Oregon meeting was one of the site handouts. The single page paper, titled *Oregon Benchmarks*, gave figures from a 1993 report to the Oregon Legislature. Item 58. reports on the past and future of percentage of Oregon households with personal computers at home who send and receive data and information over telecommunications lines. An explanation on this handout stated: *This measures the number of households with computers and modems (which connect a computer to the phone system). Rationale: As the costs of manipulating and transmitting data declines, more and more households will benefit from access to data bases, electronic mail and other electronic services. The more people who connect into these services, the more data bases and opportunities for communications will emerge. A telecommunications task force recently concluded that accelerating this process will increase productivity and benefit Oregonians. Data source: Oregon Values Study conducted for the Oregon Business Council. The following years were listed (for households connected): 1992 - 10 per cent 1995 - 20 per cent 2000 - 50 per cent 2010 - 75 per cent These percentage changes (forecasts) probably look good until you think about the people involved. In the year 2010 there will be over 4 million Oregonians. Yet the forecast predicts 25 per cent of them will *not* be connected households. That means that over 1 million people will be relegated to second class *information poor* status. Like figures probably exist for the other 49 states. One suggestion often expressed is to make sure that all people have access to the information superhighway. What about having terminals provided in schools, public libraries, etc.? I prefer the idea of being able to "fiddle" at home. That's another reason why having access at schools and libraries to computers/Internet/etc. may not be the best answer. I'm pessimistic enough to think we will always have an information underclass. CW -- Conrad Weiler, Tidewater, Oregon cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov "If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." ---Bertrand Russell--- From cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov Wed Nov 16 08:51:01 1994 Received: from ednet1.osl.or.gov (ednet1.osl.or.gov [192.84.215.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA08843 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 08:51:00 -0800 Received: by ednet1.osl.or.gov id AA07474 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Wed, 16 Nov 1994 05:43:17 -0800 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 05:43:17 -0800 Message-Id: <199411161343.AA07474@ednet1.osl.or.gov> From: cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Conrad Weiler) To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: [AVAIL:28] Re: Key Issues of Affordability and Availability Reply-To: cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov There already is international use of Internet facilities. Those who choose to participate can use contacts worldwide. More recently there has been growing discussion of GII (global information infrastructure) rather then only NII (national concerns for information). We are living in a smaller global village every day. -- Conrad Weiler, Tidewater, Oregon cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov "If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." ---Bertrand Russell--- From cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov Wed Nov 16 09:04:54 1994 Received: from ednet1.osl.or.gov (ednet1.osl.or.gov [192.84.215.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA09912 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:04:53 -0800 Received: by ednet1.osl.or.gov id AA10962 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Wed, 16 Nov 1994 05:57:10 -0800 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 05:57:10 -0800 Message-Id: <199411161357.AA10962@ednet1.osl.or.gov> From: cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Conrad Weiler) To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: [AVAIL:35] Re: Key Issues of Affordability and Availability Reply-To: cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov I am rather new to the Oregon scene but here is what I have found so far. The state has many rural and somewhat isolated areas. There are a few large cities (Portland, Eugene-Springfield) but there are many rural counties. To help with information transfer Net I, Net II, and Net III sites are in place. Net I allows 1-way TV, 2-way audio transmissions. I believe there are about 35 statewide sites operating. Net II allows 2-way TV/audio transmission. Net III includes Ed Net COMPASS which gives people around the state access to each other and the Internet. Some folks pay long distance charges - some are using local lines. It just depends where you live. There are regional conferences scheduled in early December and a statewide conference set for January, 1995 to discuss directions to go with telecommunications in Oregon. Conrad -- Conrad Weiler, Tidewater, Oregon cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov "If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." ---Bertrand Russell--- From don@dcez.com Wed Nov 16 09:06:12 1994 Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA10084 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:06:11 -0800 Received: from dcez.dcez.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQxqgt05379; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 08:58:12 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 08:53:49 -500 (EST) From: Don Evans Subject: Testing. To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: don@dcez.com Testing don@dcez.com From don@dcez.com Wed Nov 16 09:33:40 1994 Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA11972 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:33:33 -0800 Received: from dcez.dcez.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQxqgv09543; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:25:34 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:21:12 -500 (EST) From: Don Evans Subject: Thanks Al.... To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: don@dcez.com Has anyone stopped to think just how much we owe to Al Gore and the current administration. In 1989, then Senator Gore introduced NREN Legislation, setting the stage for the environment in which we now find ourselves. Donald F. Evans Washington, DC don@dcez.com The views expressed are my own, and in no way should be considered as the views of the National Endowment for the Arts. From woody@cni.org Wed Nov 16 09:37:14 1994 Received: from a.cni.org (A.CNI.ORG [192.100.21.1]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA12257 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:37:14 -0800 Received: by a.cni.org id ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:28:51 -0500 From: Forest W Horton Message-Id: <9411161428.AA00455@a.cni.org> Subject: Re: [AVAIL:52] Re: GII vs. NII To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:28:51 -0500 (EST) Cc: lis-fid@a In-Reply-To: <199411161343.AA07474@ednet1.osl.or.gov> from "Conrad Weiler" at Nov 16, 94 08:52:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1145 > > > > There already is international use of Internet facilities. Those > who choose to participate can use contacts worldwide. > > More recently there has been growing discussion of GII (global > information infrastructure) rather then only NII (national > concerns for information). We are living in a smaller global > village every day. > > -- > Conrad Weiler, Tidewater, Oregon > cweiler@ednet1.osl.or.gov > "If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." > ---Bertrand Russell--- > Those conference participants interested in tracking the Global Information Infrastructures (GII) aspects of developments may be interested in knowing that the International Federation for Information and Documentation (FID) has set up a Task Force under the co-chairmanship of Dean Toni Carbo Bearman of the Graduate School of Library and Information Science at the University of Pittsburgh (and who serves on the Vice President's NIIAC Advisory Committee) can contact me for further information re FID's activities in this area. Woody Horton, Washington, D.C. woody@cni.org From epin@access.digex.net Wed Nov 16 09:57:33 1994 Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [164.109.10.5]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA13839 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:57:33 -0800 Received: by access2.digex.net id AA12723 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:49:41 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:49:40 -0500 (EST) From: James McDonough To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: [AVAIL:42] Re: my question In-Reply-To: <199411160841.AAA27213@virtconf.digex.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I want to add my voice to those favoring greater, not less, government intervention in the development of the NII (or GII) to protect the interest of the people against the narrow sectarian interests of large telecommunications industries. Why the federal government gave up it part ownership in the Internet backbone is a mystery to me. An active, interventionist government is essential to assure universal access at affordable prices from people living in heart of the cities or in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. James McDonough Bethesda, MD From redefus@winslo.ohio.gov Wed Nov 16 10:02:43 1994 Received: from winslo.ohio.gov (winslo.ohio.gov [156.63.68.251]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA14443 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 10:02:42 -0800 Received: (from redefus@localhost) by winslo.ohio.gov (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA06557; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:52:00 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 09:51:59 -0500 (EST) From: Redefining Univ Service REDEFUS Open access Subject: Re: [AVAIL:38] Re: NTIA Virtual Conference KeyNote Address To: Henry Huang cc: Multiple recipients of list In-Reply-To: <199411160304.WAA57037@fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII my question deals with actual competition in the local loop. what do you or does anybody have knowledge of actual competition not just petitioning to offer the service From FBSS@cbs.nl Wed Nov 16 10:53:16 1994 Received: from extcom5.cbs.nl (extcom5.cbs.nl [192.87.118.5]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA20200 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 10:52:41 -0800 From: FBSS@cbs.nl Received: from extcom3.cbs.nl by extcom5.cbs.nl (5.65/1.34) id AA27458; Wed, 16 Nov 94 16:44:48 +0100 Received: via extcom3.cbs.nl; Wed, 16 Nov 94 16:43:21 +0100 X-To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Received: via mailslh2.cbs.nl; Wed, 16 Nov 94 16:39:05 +0100 Received: via mailslh2.cbs.nl; Wed, 16 Nov 94 16:38:04 +0100 Received: via fddiha.cbs.nl; Wed, 16 Nov 94 16:46:04 +0100 Received: From BBH-1/WORKQUEUE1 by CHARON_H2.CBS.NL To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov X-Cbs-Space: Yes Comment: "" Date: 16 Nov 1994 16:35:56 MET Subject: Availability of statistics Reply-To: FBSS@cbs.nl Message-Id: <81430000.00000000006A.FBSS.Z9H374IJ> X-Smtpx-Version: 5.00 X-Mailer: Post v5.00 After attending the Virtual Conference for two days now, I would like to give my first attribution to the discussion. Since I work for the governement of The Netherlands, at the Central Bureau of Statistics, which is part of the Department of Economic Affairs, the question of availability of statistical figures intrigues me. As a result of safety-precautions there is no on-line connection possible with our network. There should, however, be a source for the public to get our data from, we get paid by community-money so the community should benefit the results of our efforts. I am wondering how these matters are regulated in the other countries who participate in the Virtual Conference With kind greetings, Frank D.Bastiaans, Statistical Analyser, Division Trade, Service and Transport, Sector Trade and Transport, Taskforce Wholesale-trade and Transport E-mail: FBSS@CBS.NL From martin@umbsky.cc.umb.edu Wed Nov 16 11:52:51 1994 Received: from gemini.cc.umb.edu (gemini.cc.umb.edu [158.121.2.2]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA25342 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:52:50 -0800 Received: by umbsky.cc.umb.edu (MX V4.1 VAX) id 6; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:45:06 EDT Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:45:05 EDT From: "ANTHONY M. MARTIN" To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov CC: martin@umbsky.cc.umb.edu Message-ID: <009878CF.F6D77B20.6@umbsky.cc.umb.edu> unsubscribe Anthony Martin From schaefer@access.digex.net Wed Nov 16 11:58:59 1994 Received: from access1.digex.net (access1.digex.net [164.109.10.3]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA26101 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:58:58 -0800 Received: by access1.digex.net id AA22513 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov); Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:51:04 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:51:04 -0500 (EST) From: Tom Schaefer To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Re: [AVAIL:60] In-Reply-To: <009878CF.F6D77B20.6@umbsky.cc.umb.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII You need to send this command to the list server at: listserv@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov The address you sent to is for posting messages... On Wed, 16 Nov 1994, ANTHONY M. MARTIN wrote: > unsubscribe Anthony Martin > > From LucyCo@aol.com Wed Nov 16 12:42:39 1994 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA00698 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 12:42:39 -0800 From: LucyCo@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA24023; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 12:34:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 12:34:19 -0500 Message-Id: <941116122334_662824@aol.com> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Subject: Library e-mail In Avail #40 Chris Silker asked about libraries providing free e-mail/net access. Seattle Public Library provides limited net access on its own -- but, more significantly, said "yes" to a collaborative project with the local Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility group. The CPSR/Seattle Community Network project enables the whole populace to have free internet e-mail, if desired -- through dial-in, or at terminals at any of the 22 main and branch libraries, or even from a telnet jump from far-flung libraries in the greater King County system. Registered users (you only have to sign up with your real name -- there are no other registration requirements) have free e-mail accounts and can post to local network forums. Lucy Copass, Seattle League of Women Voters Computer Communications Chair (lucyco@scn.org) From mathews@gold.chem.hawaii.edu Wed Nov 16 19:21:59 1994 Received: from gold.chem.hawaii.edu (gold.chem.Hawaii.Edu [128.171.55.9]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA06133 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 19:21:58 -0800 Received: by gold.chem.hawaii.edu (4.1/gold-MX-1.9) id AA26624; Wed, 16 Nov 94 14:13:44 HST Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:02:23 -1000 (HST) From: R U Licensed To Navigate in Cyberspace? Subject: The Super-Highway: Where to? To: Multiple recipients of list Cc: "W. Curtiss Priest" In-Reply-To: <199411162139.NAA07864@virtconf.digex.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 16 Nov 1994, W. Curtiss Priest wrote Re: Who does this Administration Really Listen To? : > A disturbing article appeared in the San Jose Mercury News on > October 20, 1994. It describes the opinions of the National Information > Infrastructure Advisory Council. > > [ Snip.. Snip.. ] > > The council is co-chaired by Silicon Graphics chief executive > Edward R. McCracken and Delano E. Lewis, president of National > Public Radio. Dr. Priest and fellow virtual conference participants: Perhaps, this specific contribution and my decision to address Dr. Priest's writing in the manner and context as I have chosen, MIGHT NOT serve this issue the justice it deserves. However, I shall attempt to render some thoughts -- that might be benefical to our gathering.. > The statements regarding accessibility and universal service were > particularly disturbing -- the group doesn't see homes involved > at all, but a reliance on libraries, schools and community places > to let most Americans gain access to the highway on into the next > century. I am NOT certain that we have sufficiently explored the involvement of REMOTE access (home based), as much as we have: the areas of Library and Public Schools based access to Global networks and resources. Hence, my hypothesis of a larger emphasis on PUBLIC access through libraries and public schools. Perhaps the emphasis on access through libraries are perpetuated by the rationale that libraries are an environment for discovery and learning. And thus the focus on access through schools also.. However, I am of the opinion that Tools and a certain Philosophy MUST exist to facilitate private (at home) introspection, foster the process of discovery and validation associated with, and regarding, these technologies for one's own use. For populations to embrace such technologies, atleast in a meaningful sense; the introductory process and the subsequent immersion of populations, should begin at home through such processes as interacting with community computing instruments. > [ Snip.. Snip.. ] > > MCCracken did leave one question open -- "But, he said, 'that brings up the > real issue of funding, how much is from the private sector' and how much > will come from the government -- something the council did not address > at this meeting. I am of the opinion that continued Federal funding is necessary to stimulate the evolution and maturity of private sector involvement in this area. Perhaps it should be suggested that a certain portion of budgets of such agencies as ARPA and DARPA together with the TRP - Technology Re-investment Project, allocate a set sum each year for the building of community, state and regional infrastructures with a Dual use purpose. This, to BOLSTER and enhance funding opportunities already available. ARPA and DARPA presently does provide certain funds INDIRECTLY toward this purpose.. I am suggesting.. a more DIRECT and COMITTED involvement to the strengthening a national position in this matter. >_______________________________________________________________________________ >| W. Curtiss Priest, Ph.D. *********************** | >| Center for Information, Technology, & Society * Improving humanity * | >| * through technology * | >| 466 Pleasant Street *********************** | >| Melrose, MA 02176-4522 | >| Voice: 617-662-4044 Gopher to our publications: | >| Fax: 617-662-6882 GOPHER.STD.COM (under nonprofits) | >_____________________________________________________________________________| All the best, Robert Mathews. --------------- --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chairman - Steering Committee Tel: + 808.921.2097 The Pacific Network Consortium Ltd. Fax: + 808.921.2097 Suites 814 & 815 Tel: + 808.533.3969 415 Nahua Street Fax: + 808.533.3969 (RB) Honolulu, Hawaii 96815 - 2949 E.mail: mathews@gold.chem.hawaii.edu United States of America. E.mail: RMATHEWS@TECHNOLOGY.TAMU.EDU ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From webdog@mercury.sfsu.edu Wed Nov 16 19:40:05 1994 Received: from mercury.sfsu.edu (mercury.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.162]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA07918 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 19:40:04 -0800 Received: from [130.212.25.52] (edu-52.sfsu.edu) by mercury.sfsu.edu (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA14398; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 16:32:13 -0800 Message-Id: <9411170032.AA14398@mercury.sfsu.edu> X-Sender: webdog@mercury.sfsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 17:33:42 -0800 To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov From: webdog@mercury.sfsu.edu (Jeff Schwartz) content-length: 166 .. SUBSCRIBE AVAIL JEFF SCHWARTZ --- Jeff Schwartz San Francisco State University Department of Instructional Technologies webdog@sfsu.edu http://edu-52.sfsu.edu From "SFPL::NTIA_PUB"@DRANET.DRA.COM Wed Nov 16 19:53:05 1994 Received: from DRANET.DRA.COM (dranet.dra.com [192.65.218.23]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA09048 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 19:53:04 -0800 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 18:43:35 -0600 (CST) From: San Francisco Public Libraray <"SFPL::NTIA_PUB"@DRANET.DRA.COM> To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov X-Vmsmail-To: ADDRESS Message-Id: <941116184335.20212906@DRANET.DRA.COM> Subject: NTIA Public Comment i am sitting in the corner of the card catalogue room at the san francisco main library, blasted with heat from the oft-unused ven- tilator, doing what i hope i will be able to do for the rest of my years: use computers freely. internet, on-line discourse, rather, is invaluable; the role of the computer-friendly mind is becoming ever greater and the need to communicate within this medium needs to remain open to all. if not, we will fall into the abyss of the isolated world so heralded by the fearful critics of the first personal computers. we could become isolated humans in a cubicle existing only through our computer, it is true, but only if we choose this. i would choose otherwise. keep computers part of the schools and libraries, and definately make internet free to any who wish to use it. otherwise we are doomed. From: From bsummers@vt.edu Wed Nov 16 19:59:39 1994 Received: from vtucs.cc.vt.edu (vtucs.cc.vt.edu [128.173.4.72]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA09478 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 19:59:39 -0800 Message-Id: <199411170359.TAA09478@virtconf.digex.net> Received: from bsummers.bevc.blacksburg.va.us by vtucs.cc.vt.edu with SMTP (1.37.109.8/16.2) id AA16222; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 19:51:48 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 19:51:48 -0500 X-Sender: bsummers@mail.vt.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov From: bsummers@vt.edu (Bob Summers) Subject: Re: [AVAIL:76] The Super-Highway: Where to? X-Mailer: >> MCCracken did leave one question open -- "But, he said, 'that brings up the >> real issue of funding, how much is from the private sector' and how much >> will come from the government -- something the council did not address >> at this meeting. > > I am of the opinion that continued Federal funding is necessary >to stimulate the evolution and maturity of private sector involvement in >this area. Perhaps it should be suggested that a certain portion of >budgets of such agencies as ARPA and DARPA together with the TRP - Technology >Re-investment Project, allocate a set sum each year for the building of >community, state and regional infrastructures with a Dual use purpose. >This, to BOLSTER and enhance funding opportunities already available. I feel that it is the responsibility of Local government, educational institutions and the private sector to work together to create the required networks for private (home) and public use. The network that I am on is the Blacksburg Electronic Village, which is a joint venture between Virginia Tech, Bell Atlantic and the town of Blacksburg. There are certainly some Federal funds invested in this project that have made it possible. 25% of the residents of Blacksburg are hooked into the net. I am connected VIA a 1MB/sec line which is in my apartment. All complexes that have been built in the last 3 years have had these connections installed. Bob Summers Senior Computer Engineer Virginia Tech bsummers@vt.edu From msalo@garnet.acns.fsu.edu Wed Nov 16 23:04:04 1994 Received: from garnet.acns.fsu.edu (garnet.acns.fsu.edu [128.186.6.137]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA22608 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 23:04:03 -0800 Received: by garnet.acns.fsu.edu (5.65c/25-eef) id AA27803; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 22:56:13 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 22:27:17 +22311151 (EST) From: Marty Salo Subject: Re: [AVAIL:79] AVAIL digest 9 To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov Cc: Marty Salo In-Reply-To: <199411170514.VAA15295@virtconf.digex.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Bob Summers wrote: > The network that I am on is the > Blacksburg Electronic Village, which is a joint venture between Virginia > Tech, Bell Atlantic and the town of Blacksburg. There are certainly some > Federal funds invested in this project that have made it possible. 25% of > the residents of Blacksburg are hooked into the net. I am connected VIA a > 1MB/sec line which is in my apartment. All complexes that have been built > in the last 3 years have had these connections installed. Kudos to you Bob. A T-1 line is good connectivity. It's good that Blacksburg has achieved 25%. I suppose I might be a bit dubious of that figure, but it doesn't really matter. I think we are talking about how to get that number close to 100%. Considering that telephone penetration is only around 93% (? and even that # is suspect), I'm not sure that we can achieve 100%. What we are talking about here is the haves and the have nots. I get the feeling that this group pretty much agrees the we should try to minimize the have nots. What I worry about is that the policy makers might just accept the 25% figure as adequate for the haves, and leave a vast majority in the have not category. The prospect of some people advancing at an exponential rate, while others merely advance by simple addition, is a frightening one, indeed. But I'm not too sure how this situation will be dealt with in the future. Any ideas as to how many people we, as a society, can afford to leave un-integrated into the information age? Marty Salo + msalo@garnet.acns.fsu.edu + http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~msalo From p.stein3@genie.geis.com Wed Nov 16 23:37:59 1994 Received: from relay2.geis.com (relay2.geis.com [192.77.188.3]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA25247 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 23:37:57 -0800 From: p.stein3@genie.geis.com Received: by relay2.geis.com (1.37.109.11/15.6) id AA034676569; Thu, 17 Nov 1994 04:29:29 GMT Message-Id: <199411170429.AA034676569@relay2.geis.com> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 02:21:00 UTC To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov X-Genie-Id: 3547977 X-Genie-From: P.STEIN3 from Paul Stein (P.stein3@genie.geis.com) addressed to avail,opnaces,and standard topics Though I subscribed and received confirmation of subscription--I have been : 1. overwhelmed by the sheer volume of e-mail in my mailbox today! (73 letters) 2...unable to participate--the commercial service (genie) doesn't have full internet capability as of today. only e-mail sending and receiving. 3.Though I received instructions and set up a "password" --I have no knowledge or instructions on how to use that password to permit entering the "conference"--- Very discouraging; and even more so, because many of my "peers with weak ears" (people with hearing loss) -consider me to be the "expert"they look to for guidance. Anyhow, here's my input: To the novice/newcommer to telecomunications---the internet is a mysterious "tower of technobabble", with so many different codes,abreviations,protocols, modems, addresses,passwords, linkages, etc.-- the physical time required to learn to use it with any degree of utility -- doesent let the average citizen participate. We need: A) STANDARD COMMUNICATIONS TERMINAL For those "on-ramps and off-ramps" to the info superhighway of the future , we need a standardized computer (hardware and software). While the competitive, free market philosophy that produced the fantastic progress since the advent of the microprocessor---the "monster" is totally out of control, in my opinion. It's time to cage that monster or at least harness it if the average human is to use its capabilities. B) IDENTIFICATION/ADDRESSING Why not use our existing numbering system (the Social Security Number) as an individual's address for communication? C) OPEN ACCESS /PRIVACY A contradiction in terms! (like military intelligence :) D) AFFORDABILITY Different meanings of this criterion (depending on the socio-economic status of the individual) examples: "286" computers and others are being melted down for gold recovery by some on the basis that its "economically viable"--while many at the lower end of the economic spectrum can't afford food and shelter to survive, let alone aquire a computer. Millions of dollars are being spent by people today on "Computer Training" specifically aimed at existing systems of today--which will be obsolete and useless by the time they learn enough. That's "A to D"--no time to continue thru X,Y, and Z. To summarize, the good intentions of the NTI in doing this conference is appreciated--but it seems to me that the conference was accessable only to the "elite" technocrats that got this Nation into the mess we're stuck with. God forbid that any unrevocable decisions be made on the basis of this conference. Looking back at what I've composed here, I still feel firmly that the first step (A) above should take priority--design,testing,production and distribution of a simple to operate ("turnkey") computer terminal usable with much less training and talent than is needed for today's "state of the art" computers. Paul From edb1@Ra.MsState.Edu Wed Nov 16 23:39:39 1994 Received: from Tut.MsState.Edu (root@Tut.MsState.Edu [130.18.80.36]) by virtconf.digex.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA25399 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 23:39:38 -0800 Received: from Isis.MsState.Edu (edb1@Isis.MsState.Edu [130.18.80.11]); by Tut.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.6.9/6.5m-FWP); id WAA20328; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 22:31:46 -0600 Received: (edb1@localhost); by Isis.MsState.Edu (8.6.8.1/6.0c-FWP); id WAA20697; Wed, 16 Nov 1994 22:31:40 -0600 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 22:31:39 -0600 (CST) From: Ellen Davis Burnham X-Sender: edb1@Isis.MsState.Edu To: avail@virtconf.ntia.doc.gov cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: [AVAIL:44] Re: my question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Businesses supplying FREENETS to libraries for everyone to have access is wonderful... BUT what about us that are the **ONLY** person in your town that does any significant amount of traveling over the Internet. Not to mention that it was just two months ago the library even obtained a computer (to access encyclopedia information) and City Hall is just NOW putting court cases on a computer. We're a small town in Mississippi, we have a small tax base, and a small school. I have a problem convincing these people they need any electronic access to the outer world. Fortunately I have Mississippi State University close by to lend support (morally and intellectually) and I go to them constantly. My question, since I've gone around the world, is what do you do about availability to the Internet when there's no computer base to access? How do you convince people they need something they've seen? "Ellen" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------~~ Ellen Davis Burnham INTERNET: edb1.@ra.msstate.edu Rt. 2 Box 63A HOME NUMBER: 601-447-3463 Okolona, MS 38860 +++++LIVE LONG & PROSPER (YA'LL)++++ {Graduate Student at MSU} ---------------------------------------------------------------------------~~