Q&A With Christopher Hitchens By Tom Ivancie tom@americasfuture.org Last year a friend of mine got Christopher Hitchens' book Why Orwell Matters as a birthday gift from his mother. My friends mother, a refugee from the Soviet Union, inscribed in the book: Orwell was hated by the conservatives because he was a socialist. He was hated by the socialists because he told the truth. Almost the same thing could be said about Christopher Hitchens. Except, increasingly, many conservativesparticularly younger onesare realizing theres a lot to love about him. Indeed, despite his scorn for organized religion and hatred of Mother Teresa, there may be no leftist that conservatives like to like more than Christopher Hitchens. His scorn for lowest common denominator thinking, whether from the left or the right, is as entertaining as it is jarring. A transplanted Briton, he is the scourge of the monarchy. A strident proponent of war on the "theocratic terrorism," he has been a champion of oppressed peoples across the globe. An unabashed liberal, he was outraged by the vulgarity of the Clinton administration and gave up his column at The Nation over that magazines opposition to war in Iraq. In the conclusion to Why Orwell Matters, Hitchens writes: What [Orwell] illustrates, by his commitment to language as the partner of truth, is that views do not really count; that it matters not what you think, but how you think; and politics are relatively unimportant, while principles have a way of enduring, as do the few irreducible individuals who maintain allegiance to them. Americas Future Foundation enthusiastically seconds that sentiment, as do the conservative and libertarian leaders who belong to it. Hitchens is a widely published author and essayist, contributor to Vanity Fair, and author, most recently, of Letters to a Young Contrarian and Why Orwell Matters. Recently, I was Christopher Hitchenss guest for a dinner that featured perfectly grilled lamb chops and lots of wine. We had a wide-ranging conversation about how he became unmoored from the left. Here are some excerpts on Israel, Iraq, religion in politics, his spat with liberal essayist Studs Terkel, what he thinks of the Bush administration and the Clintons, and why he likes Senator John Edwards but wont vote for him. Doublethink: Youve been a longtime advocate for the Palestinians. But you are also outspoken on the topic of theocratic terrorism, as you labeled it. Has the war changed your views on Israel and the Palestinian question? Hitchens: Well, no. I think theres a flaw in Zionism. To me, it doesnt solve the question of international Jewish vulnerability. Go back to the Balfour Declaration, which created Israel. The idea was, wouldnt it be great to have a separate ghetto for the Jews? And it has this messianic quality as well, about bringing on the Messiah, which is why the Christian fascists like it. But when youve said all that you can against the project, you have to admit a lot of states are founded on dispossession of others. The Israelis are wrong to deny that theyve inflicted injustice on the Palestinians. But can we allow it to be overborne by a revival of the Islamic empire? I wouldnt want to see that. Is that the ambition of Saddam Hussein? Well, he says he wants to be remembered as the new Saladin. The consummation of that would certainly be canceling the insult of Zionism. Bin Laden is very explicit. These people are not, you know, doing this stuff simply for a Palestinian homeland. No ones going to blow themselves up for a two-stage solution. Do you suspect theres a link between al Qaeda and Hussein? I dont think there needs to be. There are several arguments for attacking Iraq. One is the violation of the convention against genocide. If you sign the genocide convention, you have to punish people who commit genocide, and Saddam certainly has done that. I think the strongest case is the responsibility to rescue the Iraqi people from a bastard regime. Then theres the threat of weapons of mass destruction. Finally, the talk is that he dabbles in this international underworld, if you like, terrorism, though not very conspicuously. I think there may be a sort of understanding between his people and al Qaeda, a sort of non-aggression pact. What do you think of the argument that an invasion will reorder the Middle East and rein in states like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan? I mean, here is a fascistic terrorist attack thats been nurtured in the bosom of Saudi Arabia. What could be more clear than that? But people dont want to see it, though some do, like Wolfowitz. He does see a root cause to September 11th. The root cause is the political slum that the U.S. has been running in the Middle East for a long time, and the answer is to clear it out and install some friends with democratic leanings. Isnt there something about that notioncrusading for democracythats a little utopian? Theres a piece in a recent [2]American Conservativemostly a rag, I think, but some of it is quite energetically writtenby J. P. Zmirak. He says that neoconservatism is basically leftist internationalism, Trotskyism. And thats why neoconservatives like this idea of installing democratic regimes by force. Its quite funny when he lists all the founders of neoconservatism, all those Jewish names. But at the end I thought, you know, it really would be better to just admit youre a ruthless anti-Semite and have done with it. Thats really what the piece was about. He says neoconservatism is a Jewish heresy based on a sort of free-floating, Trotskyite internationalism. Theres probably something to that, but the way he put it was slightly shady, I think. And you get that in the magazine throughoutthey do not like the ancient tribe, the Hebrews. But wouldnt it be better if the Administration was just honest about what the invasion of Iraq is about? Perhaps, but they cant. A decent respectful hypocrisy and diplomacy means you cant say were doing this to put the Saudis back in that box, teach them a lesson, to change the ways of the Middle East. So they do have to come up with arguments that arent as good. I just hope they dont start believing their own propaganda. Recently, Jack Straw, the British foreign minister, said that he thinks war has become less likely in recent weeks. Ill eat socks if they dont go in. I think Straw might find out theyve invaded after I dohes unusually drippy. Isnt it a little naïve, though, to think that democracy is going to break out in the Middle East after an invasion? Look, Ive been in Northern Iraq, in the Kurdish area, where they now have something like 21 newspapers. Maybe theyre all very bad. Maybe theres still a lot of tribalism and feudalism. But theres something like an open society. So, no, its not like all you need to do is destroy Saddam and democracy will bloom. But where his rule has been removed, Kurdish Iraqis have shown that they can do better on their own, and why wouldnt they? Is this your view of what politics should be aboutself-determination for individuals and nations? No, it has to do with justice. But if justice is what you demand, then be prepared, because it may mean that the head of the state has to be arrested and dragged away, and then where will people be? Youre told to respect the authorities, and you find out that the authorities are criminal. Would you have had Mr. Clinton sent to jail? Yes, and Exhibit A would have been the bombing of that factory in the Sudan. The Republicans wouldnt bring it up, but Maybe they didnt want to compromise the office of the Presidency? Well, when force is used overseas, its hard to criticize the reasons behind it. Honorable, but stupid. Second, when you accuse the President of using military force to divert attentions from his personal failings, thats serious. Youre accusing the President of treason. You simply cant. So they didnt. Why do you think Clinton survived? He made it an issue of how grown-up people were. Everybody was determined to be on the grown-up side of thisOh, come on, you think Im surprised about a blow job in the White House? Im much too advanced and mature to care about a little thing like that. It was genius on his part. And he took chances, too; he was bold. I mean, its risky for a Southern governor to leave the New Hampshire primary to fly home and snuff out a retarded black guy on death row. I thought, how can liberals put up with this? But they did, because he was a winner. All to distract attention from Gennifer Flowers. To distract attention from the boudoir you go to the gas chamber. You were both at Oxford at the same time. Did you meet him around campus? Mutual friends say that we met, but I dont think we did. He was a bit older than me. I certainly know the house he used to live in, which was the American sort of anti-war HQ. I was very involved with those people. One reason why Im sure I didnt know him is if he had been a real anti-war guy, I would have known him better. And I think he was a double, by the way. I think Roger Morris [author of the Clinton biography Partners in Power] is right in saying that Clinton was the informant. You think Bill Clinton was recruited by the CIA? Somebody was giving information to them about the anti-war draft resistors, and I think it was probably him. We had a girlfriend in commonI didnt know thenwhos since become a very famous radical lesbian. So one of us was doing something wrong, or right [laughter]. Anyway, everyone on the left was besotted with himStrobe Talbott, Robert Reich, Ira Magaziner, particularly. I had every reason to think that Clinton was a creep and a phony. So I tried to say to the left youre mad if you think this guy is one of us. I guess now if I was to produce a video of him dismembering a child, it wouldnt make any difference because they think hes their guy. So I became unmoored from the liberal left because I thought, Im wasting my time trying to pitch the argument to them that way. I should simply be saying the guys a lousy crook and shouldnt be President, and I should stop pitching to the left. And at that point something slightly snapped. Similar to your exchange with The Nation over the letter from Studs Terkel [regretting Hitchenss departure from the magazine]? Something about that annoyed me because they were using a guy who has slightly lost his faculties. They didnt mind making a fool of him if it could hurt me. I mean, hes an old fool in lots of ways, but hes a noble old fool. The Nation is now just an echo chamber for every kind of moral cowardice. Peggy Noonan wrote something recently in the Wall Street Journal saying that many on the left, because they dont believe in God, let politics become their God to fill that void. And that makes what youve done a fall from grace, perhaps? I havent read the piece so I shouldnt comment directly on it. I will say, I really dont think that Peggy Noonan could disagree that people who believe in God are capable of forgiving themselves for almost anything. If Gods on your side, anything you do is right. This leads into a question about the President. He refers often to his religious conversion. Some people suggest that his foreign policy is guided by this belief in God. Would you agree? What it shows is that being a man of faith is of no use when confronting something as complex as Iraq or North Korea. What help is it to be a man of faith when dealing with Kim Jong Il or Saddam Hussein? The other day, he greeted Erdogan, the new leader of Turkey, at the White House. And Bush says to him, We understand each other, because youre a man of faith and so am I. Now, if a non-believer visits, whats Bush going to do? Say, Well, I dont like you as much because youre not a man of faith? No. Hes going to say, Were very proud of our special relationship with the people of such-and-such. Its just a useless remark. So why does he say it? For all I know, it may give him some personal comfort to say it. But its a totally ridiculous remark. Certainly, Bush couldnt deny that our most venomous enemies are people of faith. I would say that the more faith-based they are, the worse they become. For example, hell say Islam is a religion of peace Which is nonsense. In fact, many of the remarks made by religious people are nonsensical. People say, I think Jesus is my best friend. No one responds as they should to that, which is to say, You should be locked up, thats utter crap. For some reason, in what used to be called the Christian world, a free pass is given to anyone who makes any remark, however stupid, if its baptized by faith. Is there anyone in public life who comes close to representing your views? Most recently, Id say it would be Jerry Brown or Ralph Nader. One is a crazed, semi-Catholic, and one is a sort of crazed health nut, safety-first fanatic. But both are people of integrity, and theyre in politics because of conviction. And Im very, very glad that neither of them ever had a chance of becoming President. But Im glad that they ran. And Im very glad that Nader stayed in to the end, because he hurt Al Gores chances of winning. What disturbed you so much about Gorethe connection to Clinton? No, it wasnt just Clinton. Im persuaded that personality is the questioncharacter, if you want to call it that. Al Gore had allowed himself to become a humble, hollowed-out, humiliated figure. I didnt want a zombie to be the president of the United States. Is there anybody out there now with the right character to be President? Well, maybe John Edwards. He probably wouldnt want my endorsement, butI wrote a piece about him This was in Vanity Fair? Yes, and it was a decidedly lenient piece. He and his wife impressed me. Im glad that people like them still want to get into politics. Right now, politics drives out everyone of any integrity. So were left with people who want to do politics as a career. Well, hes a multi-millionaire trial lawyer who says hes for the regular guy. How do you read that in terms of character? Oh, thats all bullshit. I meanI cant wait for someone to say, listen, I dont know about regular guys, Im certainly not one myself, but Id be a good president. You know, William Faulkner, when he was postmaster in Oxford, Mississippi, was asked what its like to be postmaster. And he said, Its okay, but youre at the mercy of every son of a bitch who wants a ten cent stamp. I wish Edwards would say that. You know, Im from a small town, but Im not going back there, and Ive blessed the day I left Robbins, North Carolina. But I do know quite a lot about the law, about the treasury, about health policy, and Id be a good president. But youre dreaming now, arent you? No, no, no. I think people would really love it. I mean, the one thing you cant be these days is a guy from a small town named Hope, because that doesnt work for anyone any more. So Im not dreaming. No, if Al Gore had said, I was brought up in Washington, D.C., not some hog wallow in Tennessee, and I can be a decent president because I know what presidents are like, then he might have won. Spare us the false populism. Well, since you believe in Edwards, what is it- I dont believe in him. I mean, I told him I wouldnt vote for him. Well, why not? Because Id vote for Bush. The important thing is this: Is a candidate completely serious about prosecuting the war on theocratic terrorism to the fullest extent? Only Bush is. Even though he says to the Turkish president, You believe in God, so we understand each other? Well, he says that. But he has people around him who are absolutely determined to destroy the terrorists, and theyre smart. Thats another liberal snig that annoys me a lot these daysBush is stupid, the administration is stupid. The fact has to be faced: The intellectual candle power of this administration is a great deal brighter than the Clinton administration. David Frum, in his book, says theres not much original thought in the administration. So did John DiIulio, who is himself someone I am amazed can find his own way to work without a minder. And he took it back under pressure, which shows hes not got much character, either. The level of intellect in the Bush administration is not stellar, but its higher than the Clinton administration. The level of professionalism is very much higher. But mostly they are deadly serious about winning this war and are willing to be ruthless about it. Theres no Democrat I think that can be said of. Al Gore, when he pulled out, said the president is losing the focus on al Qaeda. Its not only that. The whole crowd says worse. Recently, Hillary Clinton was with Chris Matthews in Albany, doing a show, and she says, Well, its clear that there are a lot of people in the Bush administration who have old scores to settle. Does she have any idea what shes saying? I mean, Saddam is in breach of every possible resolution, every conceivable interpretation of every international rule. What does she mean this is an old score; how dare she? Nonsense. I wouldnt listen to a single bar of that song. All of the groundwork on Iraq was laid a long time ago, by Saddam Hussein. Its pointless to pretend otherwise. But theres one thing that nobody dares mention to this day. Ill never forget itClintons impeachment trialhe bombed Iraq the day it started and stopped the bombing when the trial was over. That action led directly to the collapse of the inspection regime. He destroyed the inspection regime, treated the UN with contempt, the Congress with contempteverything Bush is accused of doing. And then stopped because he had no more use for it. And now Gore and wife say that Bush is picking a fight with Iraq? Fuck them. I really mean it. I have nothing but contempt for them. We are risking peoples lives, and all they can be is flippant. There are people who are against the war, who are very serious and have offered some very good criticisms. But not Gore, and not the senator from New York, either. The thought of these people in power frightens me. Well, Gore wont run, but Hillary is still a wild card. She may well pounce if she sees any weakness in the field. Well, her life is meaningless, as in a way his is. What do you mean by that? Well, for these people, without running for something, whats life for? It would be like Prince Charles saying he doesnt want to be king after all. It means youve wasted your life. Of course, Gore didnt say hed never run again, just not this time. Same mistake he made in 1992I wont run this cycle, because I think Bush will win; Ill stay out and be better positioned for the next election. This is the same tactic Mrs. Clinton is taking. Well, this is despicable. I just hope they all get some sort of wasting disease before they can run. *** Tom Ivancie is president of America's Future Foundation. (202) 544-7707 1508 Twenty First Street, NW Washington, DC 20036 America's Future Foundation